In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Why would anyone not want instant gratification, ya id rather spend two weeks grinding something to pretend like im having fun.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
So i guess i care more about the gameplay/skill and you care about time played.......is this what weve come to?
Do you, really? If you really work for what you want, beat a monster that is hard as heck, get the loot.. that's far from instant gratification. You came that far because of your skills (which didn't come out of nowhere), the fight was tough but you came through as a winner. What's so instant about that? You worked for that accomplishment. Maybe after several losses you finally won the fight, and in that case it's not about time played but skill... so which one do I care about again?
But what are we seeing today: "One shot 2 rabbits, get the Sword of Doom+2". Do you relate gameplay/skill to that? That's the kind of instant gratification I'm talking about (is there anything else really? >_>)
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
Was i talking to you?
Or did you just automatically identify with "Mr Eight hours a day" ?
I was not talking about you.
I was talking to "Mr. Eight hours a day"
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
Was i talking to you?
Or did you just automatically identify with "Mr Eight hours a day" ?
I was not talking about you.
I was talking to "Mr. Eight hours a day"
Move along people, nothing to see here... The guy is talking to himself.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Does the Op even know any casual gamers? I'm casual and I don't require instant gratification, I just ask the gratification be achievable without ever ever having to associate with raiders in a raid.
Does the Op even know any casual gamers? I'm casual and I don't require instant gratification, I just ask the gratification be achievable without ever ever having to associate with raiders in a raid.
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Does the Op even know any casual gamers? I'm casual and I don't require instant gratification, I just ask the gratification be achievable without ever ever having to associate with raiders in a raid.
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
You misunderstand the concept of MMOs.
It's about being part of a "living" world full of other players.
Phat lewtz and the elitist raider mentality are merely an unpleasant byproduct.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You misunderstand the concept of MMOs. It's about being part of a "living" world full of other players. Phat lewtz and the elitist raider mentality are merely an unpleasant byproduct.
Are you a part of it if you don't want to have anything to do with anyone? I thought interaction belonged to the concept too... Dang.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Cutting down stuff to equalize players is just the current trend. The logical conclusion to it is the favorite pasttime of mankind today, and the thing many of the new players spent their time with instead of WoW before it released: TV.
Every step taken to remove or reduce something because its "not needed", or "boring", or "grindy", or "autowin anyway" is a step towards coming full circle and becoming passive entertainment. Its human nature, to a degree, to try and make things more comfortable. Creatures are lazy by design, because it makes evolutionary sense to not expend more energy than required. People are in many cases the same, or they work their energy off somewhere else.
We are still a good bit away from TV-mode gaming, obviously. But to give you an example, almost all melee classes in a certain casual-friendly game can kill an enemy of their level with auto-attack. Then, these mobs are spaced far in between, or not even aggro. At that point, you can just walk up to the mob, hit auto-attack and go afk.
Now, lets look at that process. What is unneeded grind and isnt fun? The walking. I have already targeted the mob, why do I need to run up to it manually? Guild Wars and Aion already run up to the target when you hit attack or any action requiring melee contact.
Its a logical argument, it removes wasted time as you dont experience anything cool on the 50 meters running towards your target. Ok, so we cut it.
But look! Some other player just killed your bear! Now, waiting for respawn is an arbitrary timesink. It takes no skill, it proves nothing, so might as well remove it, because all it does is allowing other people to negatively affect my gameplay experience. Again, a perfectly reasonable and logical demand, just as so many others. Ok, so we make the bear instant-respawn.
Then we look at combat. Ok, so I can win the fight with auto-attack in 2 minutes. If I use skills its just 30 seconds, but I am a busy adult and often dont pay attention. Besides, since I win anyway, and there really is no chance for me to lose the fight unless I screw up by , for example, attacking when I am at low health, why not speed it up? Halve mob hitpoints, and double its damage. In the end, I sit there with the same health as before after having (automatically, and certainly) won the fight. All it does is remove tedious boredom.
And I can go on and on. You will always be able to find a reasonable, logical justification to cut away virtually anything in an MMO that either a) takes time, b) is guaranteed success anyway or c) doesnt have any purpose other than making sense in the game world, because that isnt a quality accepted today anymore. These are not outrageous leaps of logic at all. But somewhere along the way I am sure most people here who dont just want slightly more interactive TV will agree that we have removed the game from the game.
When all you do is accept a quest, warp to its location, target and autokill the mob, warp back and turn the quest in, we have almost (there is still stuff that can be shaved off) completely removed anything that is just boring, a timesink, serves no purpose or is a done deal anyway. But who wants to play that?
The problem is that one change justifies the next. When a fight is not autowin, it matters what I do. If it matters what I do, it matters how good I do it. If it matters how good I do it, there will be large differences between players. And if these differences exist, suddenly its not about predictable class/race/rotation comparisons, but actual playing.
But once you start doing one thing (like making mobs automatically defeatable in order to equalize the good with the bad player, or just plain because people dont honestly want to fight mobs anymore, but just grab loot and run on), you automatically remove the justification for a lot of others, and then we get these numerous threads of people reasonably, logically demanding/asking for now superfluos things to be removed.
I can reverse-engineer that process, too. Many (not all) demands for cutting away unneeded fat stem from the initial sin of making the activity pointless to the game. For example, travel. In WoW, there isnt really a good reason not to have instant travel anymore, from a logical perspective, once you attain your flying mount. Actually, in many zones its absolutely safe before that already. So, you could rightfully argue that just flying from A to B doesnt serve any purpose other than wasting precious casual time. You are invincible on that mount (well, mostly), you are just forced to sit at your computer waiting for your character to arrive. But why is that so?
Because everything that made travel meaningful in the older games, or in WoWs case, in the classic times, was removed to ease the game. There are far fewer mobs on the way, or none at all. You arent really in danger of getting killed anymore. There isnt any point in trying to get people to meet up randomly, because world PvP isnt deemed a good thing anyway. There is nothing to explore, stumble across, aside from resource nodes. There arent any randomized events, roadblocks or other dynamic content which affects travel. Its just plain time wasted.
And thats why we have this cascade of demands to basically turn MMORPGs into interactive TV: Half the foundation has been eroded so you can claim your game has less hassle and more fun than your competitor, when all you did was pull the plug on sometimes an entire building block of gameplay.
You misunderstand the concept of MMOs. It's about being part of a "living" world full of other players. Phat lewtz and the elitist raider mentality are merely an unpleasant byproduct.
Are you a part of it if you don't want to have anything to do with anyone? I thought interaction belonged to the concept too... Dang.
We got it, you use sarcasm to cover up you're clueless, you can stop now.
What he is trying to say is like this: When I played UO, I felt I was part of a world. Crafters in town would repair my armor for a price, craft me new armor if I needed it, and I would go out in a random direction and see what there was to explore. Sometimes RED named murderers would seemingly come out of the trees and kill me. I learned where to go and how to survive. Eventually, I was hunting them instead of them hunting me.
Furthermore, I would go into a random dungeon and see what I could see. Normally I could do the first level of the dungeon, then I go a little deeper and it would get too hard. So I had something I WANTED to work for, I wanted to see what else there was to see in the dungeon. So I trained, got up my skills, and tried again. I explored what I wanted to, when I wanted to, and with who I wanted to. I felt immersed.
When I tried to do that in WoW... all my friends kept saying "CATCH UP! CATCH UP!" ... "You didn't play last weekend, you're 5 levels behind! Take off work Monday to catch back up, we want to play with you!" ... and then "We are raiding, its awesome, come raid, get to max level! We'll rush you through it, the game is most fun raiding". So I sped through to get to the "most" fun parts. Guess what, it was only fun for about 1-2 times through, then doing it over and over again to maybe get a piece of gear and then roll against the very people I was just fighting with turns into I am fighting against them. A few times the gear I wanted dropped and other people won the roll. I would get pissed, it took me weeks of waiting to find it and I lost it due to chance.
I didn't feel immersed. I felt I was doing a secondary job when I got off work. I felt angry, stressed, like I wasn't having fun, I felt tons of obligation to my guild and my friends, ... in UO I felt so much like I WANTED to do everything in the game that I had to ban myself from playing it for awhile to have a more balanced lifestyle. It was addicting to feel immersed in a world. WoW feels like race to the end to have fun... and then its not even fun to me. I hope I explained things, probably not, but ranting is always fun too
We got it, you use sarcasm to cover up you're clueless, you can stop now. What he is trying to say is like this: When I played UO, I felt I was part of a world. Crafters in town would repair my armor for a price, craft me new armor if I needed it, and I would go out in a random direction and see what there was to explore. Sometimes RED named murderers would seemingly come out of the trees and kill me. I learned where to go and how to survive. Eventually, I was hunting them instead of them hunting me. Furthermore, I would go into a random dungeon and see what I could see. Normally I could do the first level of the dungeon, then I go a little deeper and it would get too hard. So I had something I WANTED to work for, I wanted to see what else there was to see in the dungeon. So I trained, got up my skills, and tried again. I explored what I wanted to, when I wanted to, and with who I wanted to. I felt immersed. When I tried to do that in WoW... all my friends kept saying "CATCH UP! CATCH UP!" ... "You didn't play last weekend, you're 5 levels behind! Take off work Monday to catch back up, we want to play with you!" ... and then "We are raiding, its awesome, come raid, get to max level! We'll rush you through it, the game is most fun raiding". So I sped through to get to the "most" fun parts. Guess what, it was only fun for about 1-2 times through, then doing it over and over again to maybe get a piece of gear and then roll against the very people I was just fighting with turns into I am fighting against them. A few times the gear I wanted dropped and other people won the roll. I would get pissed, it took me weeks of waiting to find it and I lost it due to chance. I didn't feel immersed. I felt I was doing a secondary job when I got off work. I felt angry, stressed, like I wasn't having fun, I felt tons of obligation to my guild and my friends, ... in UO I felt so much like I WANTED to do everything in the game that I had to ban myself from playing it for awhile to have a more balanced lifestyle. It was addicting to feel immersed in a world. WoW feels like race to the end to have fun... and then its not even fun to me. I hope I explained things, probably not, but ranting is always fun too
Aww, but I like using sarcasm!
Hmhmm, so you say you want an immersive world that feels like it's living? I can see your point, since... that's what bugs me about MMO's today, too. They don't have the depth. But as to how this correlates to soloing, I'm not so sure... you can get same kind of experience from a group MMO as well. Maybe even better? Who knows..!
MMO's these days are a race to the top, I agree. I didn't play my forced grouping MMO like that years ago and I very much enjoyed the road to the cap, moreso than actually being at the cap. You have the right idea there. I didn't have any obligations to my guild and friends, it wasn't really necessary.. I kept going at my own pace.
So, my point is- you can have casual And grouping- immersive world even though you have to interact with people- which is what I believe is the point (probably because it Was in the game I played). It doesn't have to suffer because of it, but the core of the game needs reworking. Low and midgame should be as important as endgame, why rush? The game doesn't start at the cap, it starts when you enter the game world.
But I still don't know why you had to call me clueless =/.. I know whatcha talking about.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Why would anyone not want instant gratification, ya id rather spend two weeks grinding something to pretend like im having fun.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
It's the difference between building a model car or watching a movie. Some view gaming as a hobby. Others game just to pass the time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
We got it, you use sarcasm to cover up you're clueless, you can stop now. What he is trying to say is like this: When I played UO, I felt I was part of a world. Crafters in town would repair my armor for a price, craft me new armor if I needed it, and I would go out in a random direction and see what there was to explore. Sometimes RED named murderers would seemingly come out of the trees and kill me. I learned where to go and how to survive. Eventually, I was hunting them instead of them hunting me. Furthermore, I would go into a random dungeon and see what I could see. Normally I could do the first level of the dungeon, then I go a little deeper and it would get too hard. So I had something I WANTED to work for, I wanted to see what else there was to see in the dungeon. So I trained, got up my skills, and tried again. I explored what I wanted to, when I wanted to, and with who I wanted to. I felt immersed. When I tried to do that in WoW... all my friends kept saying "CATCH UP! CATCH UP!" ... "You didn't play last weekend, you're 5 levels behind! Take off work Monday to catch back up, we want to play with you!" ... and then "We are raiding, its awesome, come raid, get to max level! We'll rush you through it, the game is most fun raiding". So I sped through to get to the "most" fun parts. Guess what, it was only fun for about 1-2 times through, then doing it over and over again to maybe get a piece of gear and then roll against the very people I was just fighting with turns into I am fighting against them. A few times the gear I wanted dropped and other people won the roll. I would get pissed, it took me weeks of waiting to find it and I lost it due to chance. I didn't feel immersed. I felt I was doing a secondary job when I got off work. I felt angry, stressed, like I wasn't having fun, I felt tons of obligation to my guild and my friends, ... in UO I felt so much like I WANTED to do everything in the game that I had to ban myself from playing it for awhile to have a more balanced lifestyle. It was addicting to feel immersed in a world. WoW feels like race to the end to have fun... and then its not even fun to me. I hope I explained things, probably not, but ranting is always fun too
Aww, but I like using sarcasm!
Hmhmm, so you say you want an immersive world that feels like it's living? I can see your point, since... that's what bugs me about MMO's today, too. They don't have the depth. But as to how this correlates to soloing, I'm not so sure... you can get same kind of experience from a group MMO as well. Maybe even better? Who knows..!
MMO's these days are a race to the top, I agree. I didn't play my forced grouping MMO like that years ago and I very much enjoyed the road to the cap, moreso than actually being at the cap. You have the right idea there. I didn't have any obligations to my guild and friends, it wasn't really necessary.. I kept going at my own pace.
So, my point is- you can have casual And grouping- immersive world even though you have to interact with people- which is what I believe is the point (probably because it Was in the game I played). It doesn't have to suffer because of it, but the core of the game needs reworking. Low and midgame should be as important as endgame, why rush? The game doesn't start at the cap, it starts when you enter the game world.
But I still don't know why you had to call me clueless =/.. I know whatcha talking about.
To start with the last question, over aggressive personality is why I say mean things like this, my mistake .
I'm just saying when the world is immersive and it feels alive, you want to explore it, a byproduct of good game design. When a game says "The most fun is at the end"... natural human instinct is to want to have more fun, so you want to rush to the fun. Game design decides if its soloing or grouping. What I'm trying to say is it is not that people want "instant gratification", it is they want to have the most fun possible, and if the game tells you that is at max level, you want to get that ASAP. And even if you, personally don't want to (As in I enjoyed the road to max level in WoW), friends and guildmates want you to rush there so you can "join" them, otherwise you can't play together. Again, bad game design to compelled people to want to get to where everyone else is 'instantly' if possible.
Sorry, I don't know what forced grouping game you played, but I'll assume its FFXI. That game sucked to me. I am a casual gamer now, I wasn't always but I am now. I really enjoyed level 1-13, the helpful people, the world, and everything. But then the game started to tell me I HAD to group, it was shoving "interaction" down my throat or I couldn't play the game. And that's fine normally, I like to play with other instead of solo. But FFXI is flawed, you need certain classes, certain team builds, certain weapons and armors even at low levels or people didn't want you in their group. So I would sit and sit, never getting to play the game, only waiting to play. Killed the immersion, killed the fun, made it impossible to explore. Again, to me, bad game design. (Crosses fingers for FFXIV)
So my main point is what some others said, no one really wants "instant gratification", thatis a myth. People just want to have fun and if the game is designed poorly, often that means you're trying to rush through something to get to the fun parts of the game.
I think there is a mis-representation of the time-strapped player in this thread. It's not necessarily about "reaching the top", but about accomplishing something in the time they play. With a lot of older games, you could log in and play for a couple of hours and find yourself worse off than when you started (due to XP loss and the like).
As for me, it's all about the leveling and enjoying that content. Once I cap I generally quit the game. I'm not interested in running the same raid dungeons over and over again for a small chance at winning slightly-better gear.
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast? See, "casual" seems to translate these days to "instant gratificationist", when most of them pose themselves, as "busy people" who have limiteed hours of play (and time managment is a word unheard of, but let's not dig into this). Fine, limited time, say, five hours a week. Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can? Why is it important to you, to have that "best gear"? Why can't you just enhoy the game, the way it is? Sure, you have less time and will hit the top quite behind the "elite", possibly in half a year or a full one. Why is that a problem? You get to play the game and enjoy the process. Not only that, but most of today's MMO content is manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, why not? Why do you want it faster and easier, when all you really should do is take the things slower and without the fuss? Why is that such a big problem, whether you hit the max level in three or six months? WHY?
Cause no one wants to stuck in the same content for more than 6-12 months? I don't see anything wrong with consuming content faster. MMORPGs are quite slow compared to SP games which you go through each level ONCE.
Why would anyone not want instant gratification, ya id rather spend two weeks grinding something to pretend like im having fun.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
Did you just ignore the part where I said people enjoy different things? For example, you might like working for a weapon , but other people like to use the weapon.
To start with the last question, over aggressive personality is why I say mean things like this, my mistake .
I'm just saying when the world is immersive and it feels alive, you want to explore it, a byproduct of good game design. When a game says "The most fun is at the end"... natural human instinct is to want to have more fun, so you want to rush to the fun. Game design decides if its soloing or grouping. What I'm trying to say is it is not that people want "instant gratification", it is they want to have the most fun possible, and if the game tells you that is at max level, you want to get that ASAP. And even if you, personally don't want to (As in I enjoyed the road to max level in WoW), friends and guildmates want you to rush there so you can "join" them, otherwise you can't play together. Again, bad game design to compelled people to want to get to where everyone else is 'instantly' if possible. Sorry, I don't know what forced grouping game you played, but I'll assume its FFXI. That game sucked to me. I am a casual gamer now, I wasn't always but I am now. I really enjoyed level 1-13, the helpful people, the world, and everything. But then the game started to tell me I HAD to group, it was shoving "interaction" down my throat or I couldn't play the game. And that's fine normally, I like to play with other instead of solo. But FFXI is flawed, you need certain classes, certain team builds, certain weapons and armors even at low levels or people didn't want you in their group. So I would sit and sit, never getting to play the game, only waiting to play. Killed the immersion, killed the fun, made it impossible to explore. Again, to me, bad game design. (Crosses fingers for FFXIV) So my main point is what some others said, no one really wants "instant gratification", thatis a myth. People just want to have fun and if the game is designed poorly, often that means you're trying to rush through something to get to the fun parts of the game.
I couldn't agree more with the first paragraph.
I do agree with the 2nd paragraph too. That game was as casual as WoW is a puzzle game. That kind of overly harsh gamestyle doesn't really work anymore nowadays (did it work ever? Maybe japanese liked it...) but the one thing they got right was as you said, the world, immersion.. it all felt like it had a depth to it. But the game itself was poorly designed, and frankly- the only thing why people who played it say they liked it best was because they got a taste of the depth and immersion they couldn't find anywhere else, the community- not the game itself.
That's why what my vision is right now is to remake the world as bigger and better, keep the immersion, make the grouping Casual but required, remove the "waiting", include the "playing".
It's not the only way to make a world immersive- what UO did was quite fantastic too. But I think this is what has been never done before, so we might find what we're looking for there.. while keeping the 2nd M in the MMORPG at the same time.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Why would anyone not want instant gratification, ya id rather spend two weeks grinding something to pretend like im having fun.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
Did you just ignore the part where I said people enjoy different things? For example, you might like working for a weapon , but other people like to use the weapon.
Oh, but how about working for a weapon and when you finally get to use it... it's not the same feeling at all. Leaving one or the other out usually makes the experience not as good as it could be.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
It is erroneous to assume a) people want accomplish, and b) they won't feel it if it does not require work.
For example, female uses luxury hand bags all the time. Some work for it, some got it from their bfs/husbands. They are as happy.
Another example, you want that epic sword NOT because you want to feel accomplish, but it allows you to kill that other big boss.
It is not wise to assume everyone has the same motivation as you.
The problem with this thread, and many more like it is it begins with the fallacy that solo = casual, then compounds the invalid assumption further by equating both with a need for instant gratification.
There are players who prefer to solo, and those who prefer to group. Within those two differing playstyles are people who are casual, and those who are hardcore.
Currently in MMO's, if you are a harcore or casual grouper, you are rewarded with top level gear, and if you are a hardcore or casual solo player you are not.
A more equitable sytem would reap greater rewards upon the hardcore (group and solo) players, and less so upon the casual (group and solo) players.
Acheivement should equal success, otherwise a rewards based system is a failure by design.
In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards. Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast? See, "casual" seems to translate these days to "instant gratificationist", when most of them pose themselves, as "busy people" who have limiteed hours of play (and time managment is a word unheard of, but let's not dig into this). Fine, limited time, say, five hours a week. Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can? Why is it important to you, to have that "best gear"? Why can't you just enhoy the game, the way it is? Sure, you have less time and will hit the top quite behind the "elite", possibly in half a year or a full one. Why is that a problem? You get to play the game and enjoy the process. Not only that, but most of today's MMO content is manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, why not? Why do you want it faster and easier, when all you really should do is take the things slower and without the fuss? Why is that such a big problem, whether you hit the max level in three or six months? WHY?
I think the real issue here is making the gameplay experience more enjoyable leading up to end game rather than just making it easier to get there. Then not only would the casual players be able to enjoy themselves but the hardcore guys desperately seeking to show off their e-peen might actually stop to enjoy themselves rather than rushing to the level cap only to bitch about the lack of end-game content. Personally I've never understood this mentality since most MMOs I've played haven't been able to keep my attention long enough for me to get to the end-game stuff. I mean, shouldn't levelling up be fun too?
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while? It is erroneous to assume a) people want accomplish, and b) they won't feel it if it does not require work. For example, female uses luxury hand bags all the time. Some work for it, some got it from their bfs/husbands. They are as happy. Another example, you want that epic sword NOT because you want to feel accomplish, but it allows you to kill that other big boss. It is not wise to assume everyone has the same motivation as you.
I don't think that they're as happy. The woman whose husband buys the bag might feel like she's happy, but she really isn't. Material doesn't bring real happiness, however that's what we're led to believe. People only realize it when they experience it themselves, so it's normal to think that they'd be as happy.
Why do you want to kill that boss in the first place? With the sword it's easy, so whats the point? It's not like you get something out of it (except a bigger sword! wow!)
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by Hyanmen That game was as casual as WoW is a puzzle game. That kind of overly harsh gamestyle doesn't really work anymore nowadays (did it work ever? Maybe japanese liked it...) but the one thing they got right was as you said, the world, immersion.. it all felt like it had a depth to it. But the game itself was poorly designed, and frankly- the only thing why people who played it say they liked it best was because they got a taste of the depth and immersion they couldn't find anywhere else, the community- not the game itself. That's why what my vision is right now is to remake the world as bigger and better, keep the immersion, make the grouping Casual but required, remove the "waiting", include the "playing". It's not the only way to make a world immersive- what UO did was quite fantastic too. But I think this is what has been never done before, so we might find what we're looking for there.. while keeping the 2nd M in the MMORPG at the same time.
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because people have lives. People have real jobs and they don't want to have to 'work' for shit in a game. Whine all you want but the hardcore days are gone.
Comments
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
So i guess i care more about the gameplay/skill and you care about time played.......is this what weve come to?
Do you, really? If you really work for what you want, beat a monster that is hard as heck, get the loot.. that's far from instant gratification. You came that far because of your skills (which didn't come out of nowhere), the fight was tough but you came through as a winner. What's so instant about that? You worked for that accomplishment. Maybe after several losses you finally won the fight, and in that case it's not about time played but skill... so which one do I care about again?
But what are we seeing today: "One shot 2 rabbits, get the Sword of Doom+2". Do you relate gameplay/skill to that? That's the kind of instant gratification I'm talking about (is there anything else really? >_>)
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
Was i talking to you?
Or did you just automatically identify with "Mr Eight hours a day" ?
I was not talking about you.
I was talking to "Mr. Eight hours a day"
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Holy crap. Don't even try to say casuals created this mentality. This is the product of the "Hardcore" racing to the end of everything.
I am looking at you Mr. Eight hours a day.
It took my half a year of continued subscription to get to level 50 in EQII.
In 2007.
Half a year.
HOLY CRAP, EIGHT HOURS A DAY! The end is NEEEEEIGH!
Read trough the thread, before you start making accusations, please? It's not about it being hard, it's about people not enjoying the journey, but the nonexistent "prize" at the end.
Was i talking to you?
Or did you just automatically identify with "Mr Eight hours a day" ?
I was not talking about you.
I was talking to "Mr. Eight hours a day"
Move along people, nothing to see here... The guy is talking to himself.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Does the Op even know any casual gamers? I'm casual and I don't require instant gratification, I just ask the gratification be achievable without ever ever having to associate with raiders in a raid.
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
You misunderstand the concept of MMOs.
It's about being part of a "living" world full of other players.
Phat lewtz and the elitist raider mentality are merely an unpleasant byproduct.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Are you a part of it if you don't want to have anything to do with anyone? I thought interaction belonged to the concept too... Dang.
Cutting down stuff to equalize players is just the current trend. The logical conclusion to it is the favorite pasttime of mankind today, and the thing many of the new players spent their time with instead of WoW before it released: TV.
Every step taken to remove or reduce something because its "not needed", or "boring", or "grindy", or "autowin anyway" is a step towards coming full circle and becoming passive entertainment. Its human nature, to a degree, to try and make things more comfortable. Creatures are lazy by design, because it makes evolutionary sense to not expend more energy than required. People are in many cases the same, or they work their energy off somewhere else.
We are still a good bit away from TV-mode gaming, obviously. But to give you an example, almost all melee classes in a certain casual-friendly game can kill an enemy of their level with auto-attack. Then, these mobs are spaced far in between, or not even aggro. At that point, you can just walk up to the mob, hit auto-attack and go afk.
Now, lets look at that process. What is unneeded grind and isnt fun? The walking. I have already targeted the mob, why do I need to run up to it manually? Guild Wars and Aion already run up to the target when you hit attack or any action requiring melee contact.
Its a logical argument, it removes wasted time as you dont experience anything cool on the 50 meters running towards your target. Ok, so we cut it.
But look! Some other player just killed your bear! Now, waiting for respawn is an arbitrary timesink. It takes no skill, it proves nothing, so might as well remove it, because all it does is allowing other people to negatively affect my gameplay experience. Again, a perfectly reasonable and logical demand, just as so many others. Ok, so we make the bear instant-respawn.
Then we look at combat. Ok, so I can win the fight with auto-attack in 2 minutes. If I use skills its just 30 seconds, but I am a busy adult and often dont pay attention. Besides, since I win anyway, and there really is no chance for me to lose the fight unless I screw up by , for example, attacking when I am at low health, why not speed it up? Halve mob hitpoints, and double its damage. In the end, I sit there with the same health as before after having (automatically, and certainly) won the fight. All it does is remove tedious boredom.
And I can go on and on. You will always be able to find a reasonable, logical justification to cut away virtually anything in an MMO that either a) takes time, b) is guaranteed success anyway or c) doesnt have any purpose other than making sense in the game world, because that isnt a quality accepted today anymore. These are not outrageous leaps of logic at all. But somewhere along the way I am sure most people here who dont just want slightly more interactive TV will agree that we have removed the game from the game.
When all you do is accept a quest, warp to its location, target and autokill the mob, warp back and turn the quest in, we have almost (there is still stuff that can be shaved off) completely removed anything that is just boring, a timesink, serves no purpose or is a done deal anyway. But who wants to play that?
The problem is that one change justifies the next. When a fight is not autowin, it matters what I do. If it matters what I do, it matters how good I do it. If it matters how good I do it, there will be large differences between players. And if these differences exist, suddenly its not about predictable class/race/rotation comparisons, but actual playing.
But once you start doing one thing (like making mobs automatically defeatable in order to equalize the good with the bad player, or just plain because people dont honestly want to fight mobs anymore, but just grab loot and run on), you automatically remove the justification for a lot of others, and then we get these numerous threads of people reasonably, logically demanding/asking for now superfluos things to be removed.
I can reverse-engineer that process, too. Many (not all) demands for cutting away unneeded fat stem from the initial sin of making the activity pointless to the game. For example, travel. In WoW, there isnt really a good reason not to have instant travel anymore, from a logical perspective, once you attain your flying mount. Actually, in many zones its absolutely safe before that already. So, you could rightfully argue that just flying from A to B doesnt serve any purpose other than wasting precious casual time. You are invincible on that mount (well, mostly), you are just forced to sit at your computer waiting for your character to arrive. But why is that so?
Because everything that made travel meaningful in the older games, or in WoWs case, in the classic times, was removed to ease the game. There are far fewer mobs on the way, or none at all. You arent really in danger of getting killed anymore. There isnt any point in trying to get people to meet up randomly, because world PvP isnt deemed a good thing anyway. There is nothing to explore, stumble across, aside from resource nodes. There arent any randomized events, roadblocks or other dynamic content which affects travel. Its just plain time wasted.
And thats why we have this cascade of demands to basically turn MMORPGs into interactive TV: Half the foundation has been eroded so you can claim your game has less hassle and more fun than your competitor, when all you did was pull the plug on sometimes an entire building block of gameplay.
Are you a part of it if you don't want to have anything to do with anyone? I thought interaction belonged to the concept too... Dang.
We got it, you use sarcasm to cover up you're clueless, you can stop now.
What he is trying to say is like this: When I played UO, I felt I was part of a world. Crafters in town would repair my armor for a price, craft me new armor if I needed it, and I would go out in a random direction and see what there was to explore. Sometimes RED named murderers would seemingly come out of the trees and kill me. I learned where to go and how to survive. Eventually, I was hunting them instead of them hunting me.
Furthermore, I would go into a random dungeon and see what I could see. Normally I could do the first level of the dungeon, then I go a little deeper and it would get too hard. So I had something I WANTED to work for, I wanted to see what else there was to see in the dungeon. So I trained, got up my skills, and tried again. I explored what I wanted to, when I wanted to, and with who I wanted to. I felt immersed.
When I tried to do that in WoW... all my friends kept saying "CATCH UP! CATCH UP!" ... "You didn't play last weekend, you're 5 levels behind! Take off work Monday to catch back up, we want to play with you!" ... and then "We are raiding, its awesome, come raid, get to max level! We'll rush you through it, the game is most fun raiding". So I sped through to get to the "most" fun parts. Guess what, it was only fun for about 1-2 times through, then doing it over and over again to maybe get a piece of gear and then roll against the very people I was just fighting with turns into I am fighting against them. A few times the gear I wanted dropped and other people won the roll. I would get pissed, it took me weeks of waiting to find it and I lost it due to chance.
I didn't feel immersed. I felt I was doing a secondary job when I got off work. I felt angry, stressed, like I wasn't having fun, I felt tons of obligation to my guild and my friends, ... in UO I felt so much like I WANTED to do everything in the game that I had to ban myself from playing it for awhile to have a more balanced lifestyle. It was addicting to feel immersed in a world. WoW feels like race to the end to have fun... and then its not even fun to me. I hope I explained things, probably not, but ranting is always fun too
Aww, but I like using sarcasm!
Hmhmm, so you say you want an immersive world that feels like it's living? I can see your point, since... that's what bugs me about MMO's today, too. They don't have the depth. But as to how this correlates to soloing, I'm not so sure... you can get same kind of experience from a group MMO as well. Maybe even better? Who knows..!
MMO's these days are a race to the top, I agree. I didn't play my forced grouping MMO like that years ago and I very much enjoyed the road to the cap, moreso than actually being at the cap. You have the right idea there. I didn't have any obligations to my guild and friends, it wasn't really necessary.. I kept going at my own pace.
So, my point is- you can have casual And grouping- immersive world even though you have to interact with people- which is what I believe is the point (probably because it Was in the game I played). It doesn't have to suffer because of it, but the core of the game needs reworking. Low and midgame should be as important as endgame, why rush? The game doesn't start at the cap, it starts when you enter the game world.
But I still don't know why you had to call me clueless =/.. I know whatcha talking about.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
It's the difference between building a model car or watching a movie. Some view gaming as a hobby. Others game just to pass the time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Aww, but I like using sarcasm!
Hmhmm, so you say you want an immersive world that feels like it's living? I can see your point, since... that's what bugs me about MMO's today, too. They don't have the depth. But as to how this correlates to soloing, I'm not so sure... you can get same kind of experience from a group MMO as well. Maybe even better? Who knows..!
MMO's these days are a race to the top, I agree. I didn't play my forced grouping MMO like that years ago and I very much enjoyed the road to the cap, moreso than actually being at the cap. You have the right idea there. I didn't have any obligations to my guild and friends, it wasn't really necessary.. I kept going at my own pace.
So, my point is- you can have casual And grouping- immersive world even though you have to interact with people- which is what I believe is the point (probably because it Was in the game I played). It doesn't have to suffer because of it, but the core of the game needs reworking. Low and midgame should be as important as endgame, why rush? The game doesn't start at the cap, it starts when you enter the game world.
But I still don't know why you had to call me clueless =/.. I know whatcha talking about.
To start with the last question, over aggressive personality is why I say mean things like this, my mistake
.
I'm just saying when the world is immersive and it feels alive, you want to explore it, a byproduct of good game design. When a game says "The most fun is at the end"... natural human instinct is to want to have more fun, so you want to rush to the fun. Game design decides if its soloing or grouping. What I'm trying to say is it is not that people want "instant gratification", it is they want to have the most fun possible, and if the game tells you that is at max level, you want to get that ASAP. And even if you, personally don't want to (As in I enjoyed the road to max level in WoW), friends and guildmates want you to rush there so you can "join" them, otherwise you can't play together. Again, bad game design to compelled people to want to get to where everyone else is 'instantly' if possible.
Sorry, I don't know what forced grouping game you played, but I'll assume its FFXI. That game sucked to me. I am a casual gamer now, I wasn't always but I am now. I really enjoyed level 1-13, the helpful people, the world, and everything. But then the game started to tell me I HAD to group, it was shoving "interaction" down my throat or I couldn't play the game. And that's fine normally, I like to play with other instead of solo. But FFXI is flawed, you need certain classes, certain team builds, certain weapons and armors even at low levels or people didn't want you in their group. So I would sit and sit, never getting to play the game, only waiting to play. Killed the immersion, killed the fun, made it impossible to explore. Again, to me, bad game design. (Crosses fingers for FFXIV)
So my main point is what some others said, no one really wants "instant gratification", thatis a myth. People just want to have fun and if the game is designed poorly, often that means you're trying to rush through something to get to the fun parts of the game.
I think there is a mis-representation of the time-strapped player in this thread. It's not necessarily about "reaching the top", but about accomplishing something in the time they play. With a lot of older games, you could log in and play for a couple of hours and find yourself worse off than when you started (due to XP loss and the like).
As for me, it's all about the leveling and enjoying that content. Once I cap I generally quit the game. I'm not interested in running the same raid dungeons over and over again for a small chance at winning slightly-better gear.
Cause no one wants to stuck in the same content for more than 6-12 months? I don't see anything wrong with consuming content faster. MMORPGs are quite slow compared to SP games which you go through each level ONCE.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
Did you just ignore the part where I said people enjoy different things? For example, you might like working for a weapon , but other people like to use the weapon.
I couldn't agree more with the first paragraph.
I do agree with the 2nd paragraph too. That game was as casual as WoW is a puzzle game. That kind of overly harsh gamestyle doesn't really work anymore nowadays (did it work ever? Maybe japanese liked it...) but the one thing they got right was as you said, the world, immersion.. it all felt like it had a depth to it. But the game itself was poorly designed, and frankly- the only thing why people who played it say they liked it best was because they got a taste of the depth and immersion they couldn't find anywhere else, the community- not the game itself.
That's why what my vision is right now is to remake the world as bigger and better, keep the immersion, make the grouping Casual but required, remove the "waiting", include the "playing".
It's not the only way to make a world immersive- what UO did was quite fantastic too. But I think this is what has been never done before, so we might find what we're looking for there.. while keeping the 2nd M in the MMORPG at the same time.
Somehow, your comment makes me really sad... is this what we've come to
Really? It makes complete sense for me as gaming is something I do as a form of entertainment. I also realize not everyone enjoys the same things, so forcing everyone to do things in a single manner is stupid.
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
Did you just ignore the part where I said people enjoy different things? For example, you might like working for a weapon , but other people like to use the weapon.
Oh, but how about working for a weapon and when you finally get to use it... it's not the same feeling at all. Leaving one or the other out usually makes the experience not as good as it could be.
That kind of gratification is missing the accomplishment. You didn't work for it, it feels like nothing. What's the purpose then, when you get really nothing out of it after a while?
It is erroneous to assume a) people want accomplish, and b) they won't feel it if it does not require work.
For example, female uses luxury hand bags all the time. Some work for it, some got it from their bfs/husbands. They are as happy.
Another example, you want that epic sword NOT because you want to feel accomplish, but it allows you to kill that other big boss.
It is not wise to assume everyone has the same motivation as you.
The problem with this thread, and many more like it is it begins with the fallacy that solo = casual, then compounds the invalid assumption further by equating both with a need for instant gratification.
There are players who prefer to solo, and those who prefer to group. Within those two differing playstyles are people who are casual, and those who are hardcore.
Currently in MMO's, if you are a harcore or casual grouper, you are rewarded with top level gear, and if you are a hardcore or casual solo player you are not.
A more equitable sytem would reap greater rewards upon the hardcore (group and solo) players, and less so upon the casual (group and solo) players.
Acheivement should equal success, otherwise a rewards based system is a failure by design.
I think the real issue here is making the gameplay experience more enjoyable leading up to end game rather than just making it easier to get there. Then not only would the casual players be able to enjoy themselves but the hardcore guys desperately seeking to show off their e-peen might actually stop to enjoy themselves rather than rushing to the level cap only to bitch about the lack of end-game content. Personally I've never understood this mentality since most MMOs I've played haven't been able to keep my attention long enough for me to get to the end-game stuff. I mean, shouldn't levelling up be fun too?
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I don't think that they're as happy. The woman whose husband buys the bag might feel like she's happy, but she really isn't. Material doesn't bring real happiness, however that's what we're led to believe. People only realize it when they experience it themselves, so it's normal to think that they'd be as happy.
Why do you want to kill that boss in the first place? With the sword it's easy, so whats the point? It's not like you get something out of it (except a bigger sword! wow!)
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because people have lives. People have real jobs and they don't want to have to 'work' for shit in a game. Whine all you want but the hardcore days are gone.