In all honesty WoW is a worst timesink theny EQ1 ever was. For one simple fact. All it takes to advance and get rewards in WoW is time. EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn. WoW requires time to advance, put in the time and you get the reward. That is a true timesink. Time = Reward that is the WoW model and yet people for some reason think that EQ1 had a worst timesink. That is simple not true.
That's funny, I thought in WoW to get the best rewards you had to actually kill the bosses and defeat the other players, not just spend time around them.
"In all honesty" you sir are an idiot.
Oh, wait, that's right.. "a monkey could bang their head on the keyboard" blah blah blah save the response I've already heard how "easy" everything in WOW is 1,209,187,193 times before, thanks, I get it... I obviously have the brain capacity of a potato and the motor skills of a toothbrush because I think it takes effort and skill to succeed in WOW at raiding/PvP to get the best rewards...
Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there.
PvP? lol come one man, skill in WoW PvP? Its a paper rock scissors model. One class will almost alwasy beat the other class unless one is better geared or higher level. Come on and I am the idiot.
The new raid stuff might be harder... I hope it is because when I left WoW before the first Expantion, the raids were a joke. Any smart guild could clear them with out issues. It was not a challenge.
WoW is easy because it has no risk. You can never make a mistake that will cost you. No matter what you keep moving forward without any way to be stopped. Sure you die, so what, a little gold and your ready to go. No risk = No challenge.
Sorry but you need to learn that Risk vs Reward is very important to video games. Not just MMOs but all video games. Without risk the rewards are meanless.
Even the idea of "catch up" is against the idea of a persistent world. Erm, no it isn't. If I can afford to buy a Bugatti Veyron today and you have to save up for a month to buy one, it makes no practical difference. We both get our chick magnets. In a persistent world there is no "catch up". The world never stops circling for your amusement. In a persistent world it continues to change and evolve regardless of your presence. In a persistent world there is no mechanics to prevent hardcore players from keep progressing, because its against the idea of ever changing ever evolving world. MMOs do. WoW for example has a raid lockout time period to prevent the hardcore players from repeatedly running the same raid instance repeatedly; I believe that EQ had lockout timers too. The idea of preventing hardcore from keep progressing (with level caps or item caps), or even allowing casual to expect to "catch up" does not belong to MMORPGs. Yes, it does. Progression is endless and infinite on MMORPGs. No, it isn't. End game is not reachable either in dinamic worlds. Yes, it is. In MMORPGs there cant be unique true heroes if every one is a maxed leveled hero. In MMORPGs everyone is born equal, and not everyone achieve greatness. Achievers is what made the genre what it is. Achievers are legion. If everyone have instant gratification there is no worthy achievement. One achievement is just worthy because ONLY SOME CAN ACHIEVE IT. Instant gratification is a myth. Casuals don't want it any more than hardcore players do. People like you just like to trot it out as some sort of manifesto against casual gamers and it's complete gibberish. Not everyone can win in MMORPGs. No-one can win in an MMO. Surely everyone knows this? The mere idea of "end game" goes against the pure idea of ever changing/evolving persistent worlds, if there is one, the other cant exist. People only discuss "balance" nowadays because the lazy people couldnt keep up and needed developers to limit (invisible hand of the market) the progression/power of hardcore players. There are so many concepts about MMORPGs. You say you play it for 12 years, even though you seem like someone who started playing with WOW. Ok, let me see .. Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Earth & Beyond, SWG, Planetside, WOW, EQ2, EVE, Dungeons & Dragons Online, LOTRO, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan. I may have forgotten one or two here or there. You can continue to insult me if you like, but please be aware that you are completely and utterly wrong; I've played every type of MMO that has ever been released; sandbox, themepark, PvP, PvE, RvR, full loot, permadeath. You, on the other hand, come across as someone who's never played any MMO at all, given how completely off-base you are on your vision of what an MMO should be. They're games, not eSports.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
So in all your raiding you never had to load up the right spells? change spells out for different events? Change up your raid strat based on the boss? Choose the correct AAs? Learn to play your char correct? You did not have to think at all? So you just pressed your abilities and watched the raid bosses die? WoW I wish I could play your version of EQ. Must of been nice. Sure the more time, the better you got at your class but time alone did not get you gear or spells. Time was not the main factor in your EQ career. Again Eq1 is an MMO so it is a timesink but it requires alot more thinking then WoW does.
The raid strategies in EQ have always come from beta tests, trickled down to other guilds, someone leaks them online and everyone had them.
(remember developers often gave us and other guilds those strategies during betas, many strategies are directly from the mouth of developers)
Few guilds in EQ actually started raids without a clue, most already had enough info to win.
Was there strategy involved? Sure, but nothing someone couldn't figure out with some tweaking.
We had bad players too, but these people weren't unskilled, they just spent less time in EQ than most of us did. Which is why I don't agree with your argument that EQ was a game where skill > time. No, time > skill in EQ. Like I said, unless you were a total moron (and there were some morons in EQ), with enough time, anyone could have made it into a top guild.
Originally posted by TdogSkal Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there.
I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes.
It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
If I wasted my fortitude at the wrong time in EQ it could mean a wipe, if I missed a CH, it would mean a wipe.
But still, all that can be learned with time and learning it was easy. There will always be people who don't learn to do the things needed to win, but I put them in the moron bracket, because I've seen moms, dads, kids and people from all walks of life do good in EQ and the one thing they had in common was a lot of free time. They weren't "smarter", "more educated" or skillful at games than anyone else, for many EQ was their first real PC game.
Originally posted by TdogSkal Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there. PvP? lol come one man, skill in WoW PvP? Its a paper rock scissors model. One class will almost alwasy beat the other class unless one is better geared or higher level. Come on and I am the idiot. The new raid stuff might be harder... I hope it is because when I left WoW before the first Expantion, the raids were a joke. Any smart guild could clear them with out issues. It was not a challenge. WoW is easy because it has no risk. You can never make a mistake that will cost you. No matter what you keep moving forward without any way to be stopped. Sure you die, so what, a little gold and your ready to go. No risk = No challenge. Sorry but you need to learn that Risk vs Reward is very important to video games. Not just MMOs but all video games. Without risk the rewards are meanless.
I really do not see how having the ability to have your skill buttons all laid out in front of you have anything to do with skill. The skill is knowing how your skills work and which skills to use in any given situation. If you fail to understand how an event works you will fail or have to be carried by your knowledgeable group members. I really do not see why you would think that it is not the same thing in WoW as it was in EQ.
I have many issues with the way raids were in vanilla WoW but they were definetly a challenge to learn and master. The stupid stuff came after you had mastered a raid and had to run it over and over for gear upgrades so you could attempt teh next tier of difficulty.
As far as Risk=Reward that is a fallancy. The real skill is in finding good wasy of avoiding risk and still reaching your goal while having fun. Just because you do somethign stupid and get lucky does not mean that you should be rewarded.
Even the idea of "catch up" is against the idea of a persistent world. Erm, no it isn't. If I can afford to buy a Bugatti Veyron today and you have to save up for a month to buy one, it makes no practical difference. We both get our chick magnets. In a persistent world there is no "catch up". The world never stops circling for your amusement. In a persistent world it continues to change and evolve regardless of your presence. In a persistent world there is no mechanics to prevent hardcore players from keep progressing, because its against the idea of ever changing ever evolving world. MMOs do. WoW for example has a raid lockout time period to prevent the hardcore players from repeatedly running the same raid instance repeatedly; I believe that EQ had lockout timers too. The idea of preventing hardcore from keep progressing (with level caps or item caps), or even allowing casual to expect to "catch up" does not belong to MMORPGs. Yes, it does. Progression is endless and infinite on MMORPGs. No, it isn't. End game is not reachable either in dinamic worlds. Yes, it is. In MMORPGs there cant be unique true heroes if every one is a maxed leveled hero. In MMORPGs everyone is born equal, and not everyone achieve greatness. Achievers is what made the genre what it is. Achievers are legion. If everyone have instant gratification there is no worthy achievement. One achievement is just worthy because ONLY SOME CAN ACHIEVE IT. Instant gratification is a myth. Casuals don't want it any more than hardcore players do. People like you just like to trot it out as some sort of manifesto against casual gamers and it's complete gibberish. Not everyone can win in MMORPGs. No-one can win in an MMO. Surely everyone knows this? The mere idea of "end game" goes against the pure idea of ever changing/evolving persistent worlds, if there is one, the other cant exist. People only discuss "balance" nowadays because the lazy people couldnt keep up and needed developers to limit (invisible hand of the market) the progression/power of hardcore players. There are so many concepts about MMORPGs. You say you play it for 12 years, even though you seem like someone who started playing with WOW. Ok, let me see .. Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Earth & Beyond, SWG, Planetside, WOW, EQ2, EVE, Dungeons & Dragons Online, LOTRO, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan. I may have forgotten one or two here or there. You can continue to insult me if you like, but please be aware that you are completely and utterly wrong; I've played every type of MMO that has ever been released; sandbox, themepark, PvP, PvE, RvR, full loot, permadeath. You, on the other hand, come across as someone who's never played any MMO at all, given how completely off-base you are on your vision of what an MMO should be. They're games, not eSports.
Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES.
Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression.
In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction.
If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others.
You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs.
WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre.
What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW.
And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics.
But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.
Originally posted by TdogSkal Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there. PvP? lol come one man, skill in WoW PvP? Its a paper rock scissors model. One class will almost alwasy beat the other class unless one is better geared or higher level. Come on and I am the idiot. The new raid stuff might be harder... I hope it is because when I left WoW before the first Expantion, the raids were a joke. Any smart guild could clear them with out issues. It was not a challenge. WoW is easy because it has no risk. You can never make a mistake that will cost you. No matter what you keep moving forward without any way to be stopped. Sure you die, so what, a little gold and your ready to go. No risk = No challenge. Sorry but you need to learn that Risk vs Reward is very important to video games. Not just MMOs but all video games. Without risk the rewards are meanless.
I really do not see how having the ability to have your skill buttons all laid out in front of you have anything to do with skill. The skill is knowing how your skills work and which skills to use in any given situation. If you fail to understand how an event works you will fail or have to be carried by your knowledgeable group members. I really do not see why you would think that it is not the same thing in WoW as it was in EQ.
I have many issues with the way raids were in vanilla WoW but they were definetly a challenge to learn and master. The stupid stuff came after you had mastered a raid and had to run it over and over for gear upgrades so you could attempt teh next tier of difficulty.
As far as Risk=Reward that is a fallancy. The real skill is in finding good wasy of avoiding risk and still reaching your goal while having fun. Just because you do somethign stupid and get lucky does not mean that you should be rewarded.
How was it the same thing? Wow and EQ. In EQ you could only have 8 spell up at anytime, you had 100s to choose from but only 8 (10 with AA) up at a time. Which made you plan, think and learn the game. WoW all your spells and abilities are right in front of you, no thinking, no planning, no learning, just spam skills and win.
I was a raid tank in WoW. Rarely would we wipe because someone used the wrong skill or spell. Most of the time we wiped to learning the raid but once you learned the raid, you could not fail. Seriously once the guild learned, it was on farm status. Not true in EQ1. You could hit the same raid a 100 times and wipe still because someone made a mistake or a spell fizzed or a spell resisted or any number of things. That is what made it fun. You could fail even if you knew the event by heart.
I agree. The skill is finding a good way to avoid the risk and still gain the reward but WoW their is no risk.; So there is no skill required. Risk vs Reward is not a fallancy, it is reality. It holds true in Real life and in video games.
Sure the first few times though the Raid zones in WoW were a challenge but after it was mastered there was no risk. It was just lets do this again, by the book. period. In EQ1, even if it was mastered shit could go wrong and you could wipe.
MMOs are Timesinks. Both EQ1 and WoW are timesinks. EQ1 requires thinking and problem solving over time. WoW requires time.
Originally posted by TdogSkal Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there.
I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes.
It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
If I wasted my fortitude at the wrong time in EQ it could mean a wipe, if I missed a CH, it would mean a wipe.
But still, all that can be learned with time and learning it was easy. There will always be people who don't learn to do the things needed to win, but I put them in the moron bracket, because I've seen moms, dads, kids and people from all walks of life do good in EQ and the one thing they had in common was a lot of free time. They weren't "smarter", "more educated" or skillful at games than anyone else, for many EQ was their first real PC game.
Its simply not true. EQ1 you can get into PuGs and do just fine in the rougher higher level zones. WoW PuGs? lol yea right.
Seriously EQ1 forced players to learn and to play smart to over come the challenge. WoW does not teach players to play smart, they teach players to put in the time to gain the reward.
It was very very easy to pick out bad players in EQ1 because the game forced you to play smart. It really did, it taugh players to learn their class, to make sure they knew what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
How many battles in EQ1 ended with "holy shit we won that" or something close to that. How many times did you think to yourself, "how the hell did I pull that off?". I bet it was more then a few times. In WoW you rarely get those moments. That is what in my opinion is missing.
I want that feeling of "OH SHIT I AM DEAD". I get that alot in EQ1 but what is so great about EQ1 is that when you get that feeling you still have a chance to win if you are a smart player.
I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes. It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid. If I wasted my fortitude at the wrong time in EQ it could mean a wipe, if I missed a CH, it would mean a wipe. But still, all that can be learned with time and learning it was easy. There will always be people who don't learn to do the things needed to win, but I put them in the moron bracket, because I've seen moms, dads, kids and people from all walks of life do good in EQ and the one thing they had in common was a lot of free time. They weren't "smarter", "more educated" or skillful at games than anyone else, for many EQ was their first real PC game.
What WoW do you play? Glad your raid doesn't mind carrying you along.
A weak DPS rotation (not hitting the righ skills in the right order at the right times) equals weak dps, and in dps race fights (Patchwerk, for a classic example) that's a wipe.
Hitting a buff instead of a heal at the wrong time will wipe a raid, if you're a healer.
Not hitting the right cooldowns or using a solid rotation can cause your to lose aggro as a tank. This will cause other players to die, and then could make it so there are not sufficient people up to complete an encounter.
Originally posted by Interesting Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES. Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression. In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction. If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others. You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs. WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre. What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW. And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics. But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Its simply not true. EQ1 you can get into PuGs and do just fine in the rougher higher level zones. WoW PuGs? lol yea right. Seriously EQ1 forced players to learn and to play smart to over come the challenge. WoW does not teach players to play smart, they teach players to put in the time to gain the reward. It was very very easy to pick out bad players in EQ1 because the game forced you to play smart. It really did, it taugh players to learn their class, to make sure they knew what to do, how to do it and when to do it. How many battles in EQ1 ended with "holy shit we won that" or something close to that. How many times did you think to yourself, "how the hell did I pull that off?". I bet it was more then a few times. In WoW you rarely get those moments. That is what in my opinion is missing. I want that feeling of "OH SHIT I AM DEAD". I get that alot in EQ1 but what is so great about EQ1 is that when you get that feeling you still have a chance to win if you are a smart player.
Maybe, I have a love / hate affair with EQ and much of what I say is impulse driven.
I think EQ was sometimes challenging, but in weird ways and I didn't find out till DoD that most of the guilds go their strategies during beta events. So it kind of put into perspective how hard these raids were when many guilds just copied the strategies.
I think I did 3 betas and I basically knew the expansion before it was released and many of the info I got was from beta boards and from the events Nodyin and other developers did with us. So.....that was all very easy to be honest.
But I can understand where you're coming from gameplay-wise, it mattered what you did in EQ and where you stood, what ability you used and how you pulled, did CC, Mezz, DPS. It's far easier in WoW, agreed.
But somehow I all thingk that time would overcome this for most players if they put in the time. I encoutered very few players who played a lot and sucked, most were very good players.
I can't wait till they make a game which has both a challenge, community and do away with the excessive timesinks.
Originally posted by Interesting Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES. Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression. In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction. If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others. You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs. WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre. What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW. And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics. But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
Sorry but you have this ass back words.
Casuals want the level 100 equipment at the same time the hardcores get the level 100 equipment because its not fair to the casuals to have to wait longer to get the same rewards.
So to fix this issue developers took out the journey that the hardcore players loved and enjoyed to get that level 100 equipment and made the level 100 equipment a reward for completing the quest chains that can be completed in short play sessions.
Originally posted by terrant What WoW do you play? Glad your raid doesn't mind carrying you along. A weak DPS rotation (not hitting the righ skills in the right order at the right times) equals weak dps, and in dps race fights (Patchwerk, for a classic example) that's a wipe. Hitting a buff instead of a heal at the wrong time will wipe a raid, if you're a healer. Not hitting the right cooldowns or using a solid rotation can cause your to lose aggro as a tank. This will cause other players to die, and then could make it so there are not sufficient people up to complete an encounter.
It's really not comparable to EQ, most abilities in WoW are on very very short timers. In EQ your defensive discs are locked out for 1 hour+. Fire it at the wrong time and if you're the raid tank, your raid would sit there for 1 hour+.
I remember sitting in CoA for over 30 minutes waiting for my and our tank's abilities to pop after a raid. That simply does not happen in WoW.
Also the importance of WoW's abilities are often minimal, discing in EQ means you're going to do up to 3x your DPS or more, combine discs with a bard and you can do 4x your normal DPS.
EQ is also a lot more tank-central, the ability to tank for casters simply doesn't exist in EQ, in WoW my druid and priest can tank lvl 70 elites, in EQ my druid would get one-rounded in a split second.
Comparing the two is good and all, but both games have little in-common gameplay wise, they just use similar concepts.
Originally posted by Waterlily I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes. It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW...
Sigh.
You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid.
Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy.
Does the Op even know any casual gamers? I'm casual and I don't require instant gratification, I just ask the gratification be achievable without ever ever having to associate with raiders in a raid.
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
Who said anything about not wanting to associate with anyone? I just despise raiding with a passion. I have no problem grouping. I don't working for rewards but I don't think I should have to raid to get it. Some people have jobs and can't put in that time nightly. I really don't care if it takes me a few months or more of work with myself or small groups but give me something worth working for.
Originally posted by heerobya Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW... Sigh. You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid. Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy. Hmm... so good.. so it's... easy.... FUCKING DUUUHHHHH
Well I'm not talking specifically about WoW raiding, in general it really doesn't matter all that much. Mistakes are "usually" forgiven in WoW.
I played a fury warrior, so I guess you could throw me into the DPS bracket.
In EQ that fraction of a second pushing fortitude does matter and your raid will wipe in that second and summon 54 people to the feet of the mob and it's over.
Casters in WoW are semi-tanks and getting a hit from a trash mob in WoW often doesn't wipe you, hell you can spec tank as a druid in WoW. Try surviving a round in EQ as a caster, at any level this will guarantee a wipe.
I'm not trying to downplay or overplay these 2 MMO, because like I said, imo anyone could learn to raid EQ and anyone who wasn't stupid could raid in EQ. I'm simply stating my observations and if I compare the two, yes WoW is much easier.
Originally posted by TdogSkal Sorry but you have this ass back words. Casuals want the level 100 equipment at the same time the hardcores get the level 100 equipment because its not fair to the casuals to have to wait longer to get the same rewards. Thrilled as I am to have you around to tell me what I want; you're wrong.
I'm a casual gamer. I am very aware that there are people who play more than me and will accomplish things faster. That doesn't bother me. All I'm concerned about when playing an MMO is enjoying myself and achieving my goals. If that means taking twice as long to achieve something as someone who plays 40 hours to my 20, I've no problem with that. So to fix this issue developers took out the journey that the hardcore players loved and enjoyed to get that level 100 equipment and made the level 100 equipment a reward for completing the quest chains that can be completed in short play sessions. Which MMO has done that; can you cite a specific source and circumstance?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
It's really not comparable to EQ, most abilities in WoW are on very very short timers. In EQ your defensive discs are locked out for 1 hour+. Fire it at the wrong time and if you're the raid tank, your raid would sit there for 1 hour+. I remember sitting in CoA for over 30 minutes waiting for my and our tank's abilities to pop after a raid. That simply does not happen in WoW. Also the importance of WoW's abilities are often minimal, discing in EQ means you're going to do up to 3x your DPS or more, combine discs with a bard and you can do 4x your normal DPS. EQ is also a lot more tank-central, the ability to tank for casters simply doesn't exist in EQ, in WoW my druid and priest can tank lvl 70 elites, in EQ my druid would get one-rounded in a split second. Comparing the two is good and all, but both games have little in-common gameplay wise, they just use similar concepts.
I'll agree that EQ WAS more challenging than WoW. And yes, the concept of a tank was nigh-irrelevant in EQ.
I was mostly saying that timing and skill are still important. The fights maybe be less difficult, but if you think you can hit any button any time you want and still win, you're wrong.
Now, about whether casuals want instant grat or not. I think the confusion here stems from the fact that there are, in essence, two types of casuals. for instance, I consider myself one. I work full time and have a life outside of gaming. I only play a few hours a week usually. I DON'T want the best uber gear naows kthxbye. I DO believe that I should be entitled to good (not the best, but good) gear if I take time and put effort in. I DO believe I should be able to see whatever game content I want without being hardcore. It shouldn't be that only the guys that play 60+ hours a week can fight Arthas, for an example. Everyone should be able to see that if they work for it! The hardcore guys should get it first, and (maybe) get better rewards for the effort they put in. But we're playing the same game, we should have access to (mostly) the same content. I don't expect to ever be as good geared, or do the most difficult hard mode challenges, but I shouldn't be penalized as a player because I don't spend my entire life at my keyboard. Nor, however, should I expect to be rewarded the same as those who do.
There is a second category of person, who wants it all now with no work put in. I hate them as much as hardcore players do.
Originally posted by Waterlily I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes. It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW...
Sigh.
You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid.
Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy.
Hmm... so good.. so it's... easy....
FUCKING DUUUHHHHH
nobody is saying its "Easy". I am simply saying its Easier compared to EQ.
Originally posted by Interesting Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES. Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression. In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction. If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others. You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs. WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre. What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW. And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics. But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
For the purpose of this topic, opposing to instant gratification, an endless treadmill is what I want.
Outside of this topic, Im more prone to player skill = power games, but Im still waiting for it to become mainstream on MMOs.
I agree with you that we wont agree about what MMOs are about. As though why people play them, I reserve the right to specify that "Achievers" play MMOs for the reasons I exposed, Killers (in games where time = power and reward/allow pvp tend to be included, although a series of restrictions apply), Explorers and Socializers, have their own reasons and I dont include them on my claim.
Those four types of players are classified by the Bartle test you must be acquainted to and Im sure you dont oppose to such classification.
Either casuals or hardcore players both have a bit of each of those 4 steryotipes, those who want instant gratification are not achievers, unless you consider achievers those who just want to achieve things regardless of their time and effort spent, whose claim would bring us back to the definition of achievers, but I dont think you will adventure through such terrain.
Casual players might not want instant gratification, and thats not my claim.
My claim is about the contradictory/inconsistence of casual players wanting game mechanics/design decisions that allow them to compete with hardcore players. I use the terms hardcore and casual just to avoid the elipse of "people who spend more/less time and effort".
Also, there is mention of casual players wanting a level 100 item that a hardcore players just achieved, well, for me, according to my beliefs, thats ridiculous. It wouldnt be such a problem if players in general didnt started to play MMOs with "end game" goals in mind, such as the level 100 item in the example.
Im not opposed to their right of having access to "all content", Im against the idea behind "all content" itself. If there wasnt a concept of "all content" in the first place, people wouldnt be bragging about why its so hard to achieve it. To avoid that, I think MMORPGs should be made like Star Wars TOR is being made, creating an achievable story driven content, just so casuals can get satisfied with that, every time and effort spent outside the story arch, whose purpose is just to progress the character vertically shouldnt be marketted to casual players, it shouldnt even be marketted at all, it should silently exist just to please achievers who want endless progression and meaningfull rewards for their consistent time and effort spent even after the "vanilla story" has ended.
Those hardcore achievers, after amassing enourmous power, long after having completed whatever story driven elements, would righteously own those casual who just played the story mode and decided to do some PVP. Once pwned, they would either start working hard themselfs, since the game should be worth it or doesnt try at all, because its not worth it and because they already "finished it" (the achievable story-driven content). Such would put the MMORPGs back to its axis.
Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from. Its that or its not an MMORPG at all. Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs. MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Now, about whether casuals want instant grat or not. I think the confusion here stems from the fact that there are, in essence, two types of casuals. for instance, I consider myself one. I work full time and have a life outside of gaming. I only play a few hours a week usually. I DON'T want the best uber gear naows kthxbye. I DO believe that I should be entitled to good (not the best, but good) gear if I take time and put effort in. I DO believe I should be able to see whatever game content I want without being hardcore. It shouldn't be that only the guys that play 60+ hours a week can fight Arthas, for an example. Everyone should be able to see that if they work for it! The hardcore guys should get it first, and (maybe) get better rewards for the effort they put in. But we're playing the same game, we should have access to (mostly) the same content. I don't expect to ever be as good geared, or do the most difficult hard mode challenges, but I shouldn't be penalized as a player because I don't spend my entire life at my keyboard. Nor, however, should I expect to be rewarded the same as those who do. There is a second category of person, who wants it all now with no work put in. I hate them as much as hardcore players do.
Very reasonable.
Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine.
But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull.
We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect.
Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.
Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from. Its that or its not an MMORPG at all. Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs. MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from. Its that or its not an MMORPG at all. Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs. MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Go read the sheep analogy some posts above.
Millions of people play HALO3. Millions of people watched Star Trek. Millions of people followed 24. We are all sheep anyway. There is nothing wrong with it and it is fun.
Comments
You can skin a sheep many times, but kill eat for the meat, only once.
Thats what WOW did with the genre, killed it for the sake of higher success (meat as opposed to the skin)
Now the sheep doesnt exist anymore.
Then we have these people thinking these new concepts define the genre.
And developers trying to kill the sheep too, except that it doesnt exist anymore.
How do you undo the wrong? How do you grow back the killed sheep?
You have to change people's mentality, ressurrecting the killed sheep = the MMORPG genre.
That's funny, I thought in WoW to get the best rewards you had to actually kill the bosses and defeat the other players, not just spend time around them.
"In all honesty" you sir are an idiot.
Oh, wait, that's right.. "a monkey could bang their head on the keyboard" blah blah blah save the response I've already heard how "easy" everything in WOW is 1,209,187,193 times before, thanks, I get it... I obviously have the brain capacity of a potato and the motor skills of a toothbrush because I think it takes effort and skill to succeed in WOW at raiding/PvP to get the best rewards...
Skill in WoW? What skill? All your abilities and spells are right in front of you. Click them, no thinking about what spells you need or what spells to load or what the event will be like because all your skills and abilities are right there.
PvP? lol come one man, skill in WoW PvP? Its a paper rock scissors model. One class will almost alwasy beat the other class unless one is better geared or higher level. Come on and I am the idiot.
The new raid stuff might be harder... I hope it is because when I left WoW before the first Expantion, the raids were a joke. Any smart guild could clear them with out issues. It was not a challenge.
WoW is easy because it has no risk. You can never make a mistake that will cost you. No matter what you keep moving forward without any way to be stopped. Sure you die, so what, a little gold and your ready to go. No risk = No challenge.
Sorry but you need to learn that Risk vs Reward is very important to video games. Not just MMOs but all video games. Without risk the rewards are meanless.
Sooner or Later
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The raid strategies in EQ have always come from beta tests, trickled down to other guilds, someone leaks them online and everyone had them.
(remember developers often gave us and other guilds those strategies during betas, many strategies are directly from the mouth of developers)
Few guilds in EQ actually started raids without a clue, most already had enough info to win.
Was there strategy involved? Sure, but nothing someone couldn't figure out with some tweaking.
We had bad players too, but these people weren't unskilled, they just spent less time in EQ than most of us did. Which is why I don't agree with your argument that EQ was a game where skill > time. No, time > skill in EQ. Like I said, unless you were a total moron (and there were some morons in EQ), with enough time, anyone could have made it into a top guild.
This still holds true as I write this.
I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes.
It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
If I wasted my fortitude at the wrong time in EQ it could mean a wipe, if I missed a CH, it would mean a wipe.
But still, all that can be learned with time and learning it was easy. There will always be people who don't learn to do the things needed to win, but I put them in the moron bracket, because I've seen moms, dads, kids and people from all walks of life do good in EQ and the one thing they had in common was a lot of free time. They weren't "smarter", "more educated" or skillful at games than anyone else, for many EQ was their first real PC game.
I really do not see how having the ability to have your skill buttons all laid out in front of you have anything to do with skill. The skill is knowing how your skills work and which skills to use in any given situation. If you fail to understand how an event works you will fail or have to be carried by your knowledgeable group members. I really do not see why you would think that it is not the same thing in WoW as it was in EQ.
I have many issues with the way raids were in vanilla WoW but they were definetly a challenge to learn and master. The stupid stuff came after you had mastered a raid and had to run it over and over for gear upgrades so you could attempt teh next tier of difficulty.
As far as Risk=Reward that is a fallancy. The real skill is in finding good wasy of avoiding risk and still reaching your goal while having fun. Just because you do somethign stupid and get lucky does not mean that you should be rewarded.
Its not about reaching the end of the line and getting satisfied. The end of the line is your comparative distance from everyone at all times, thats competitiveness, thats character progression. Character progression only makes sense because of that superiority feeling, once people catch up it ceases to exist. Without character progression its not an MMORPG anymore. You dont evaluate it from the start. You evaluate it at ALL TIMES.
Its always about comparison, how far, how superior, what is your advantage over others due to your progression.
In a dinamic persistent world, the lack of character progression (or possibility to evolve further once someone catch up) represent a stalemate. Its a contradiction.
If the MMORPG allows people to catch up (with reachable level caps) without allowing players to keep progressing (to keep their advantage, power, whatever benefits from their character progression), there is no more incentive for achievers, no more time sink, no meaningfull reward for the time and effort spent. The meaningfull reward is not something in itself that you get alla single player games, its meaningfull due to the fact that only you have and others dont, or meaningfull because its something you have over others.
You mention all those games, but keep using WOW as reference to define MMORPGs.
WOW introduced a series of new mechanics that were very successfull, but ultimatelly destroyed the genre.
What we are discussing: instant gratification is the general desired effect of those new design decisions in WOW.
And because of WOW was so successfull, for reasons that we can discuss if you want (but its beating a dead horse unless I feel you dont know what Im talking about), and other games try to copy it, thats why we are stuck with such instant gratification mechanics.
But my overall point is that casual players have no right to demand such game mechanics and design decisions to try to compete with hardcore players. Its against the genre in so many levels, I already explained to you, but you refused without counterarguing.
I really do not see how having the ability to have your skill buttons all laid out in front of you have anything to do with skill. The skill is knowing how your skills work and which skills to use in any given situation. If you fail to understand how an event works you will fail or have to be carried by your knowledgeable group members. I really do not see why you would think that it is not the same thing in WoW as it was in EQ.
I have many issues with the way raids were in vanilla WoW but they were definetly a challenge to learn and master. The stupid stuff came after you had mastered a raid and had to run it over and over for gear upgrades so you could attempt teh next tier of difficulty.
As far as Risk=Reward that is a fallancy. The real skill is in finding good wasy of avoiding risk and still reaching your goal while having fun. Just because you do somethign stupid and get lucky does not mean that you should be rewarded.
How was it the same thing? Wow and EQ. In EQ you could only have 8 spell up at anytime, you had 100s to choose from but only 8 (10 with AA) up at a time. Which made you plan, think and learn the game. WoW all your spells and abilities are right in front of you, no thinking, no planning, no learning, just spam skills and win.
I was a raid tank in WoW. Rarely would we wipe because someone used the wrong skill or spell. Most of the time we wiped to learning the raid but once you learned the raid, you could not fail. Seriously once the guild learned, it was on farm status. Not true in EQ1. You could hit the same raid a 100 times and wipe still because someone made a mistake or a spell fizzed or a spell resisted or any number of things. That is what made it fun. You could fail even if you knew the event by heart.
I agree. The skill is finding a good way to avoid the risk and still gain the reward but WoW their is no risk.; So there is no skill required. Risk vs Reward is not a fallancy, it is reality. It holds true in Real life and in video games.
Sure the first few times though the Raid zones in WoW were a challenge but after it was mastered there was no risk. It was just lets do this again, by the book. period. In EQ1, even if it was mastered shit could go wrong and you could wipe.
MMOs are Timesinks. Both EQ1 and WoW are timesinks. EQ1 requires thinking and problem solving over time. WoW requires time.
Sooner or Later
I do agree with this. If we straight up compare EQ to WoW, yes EQ's abilities are much harder to control and you are much more prone to making mistakes.
It doesn't really matter what the hell I push on my WOW action bar, if I hit something wrong it won't wipe my raid.
If I wasted my fortitude at the wrong time in EQ it could mean a wipe, if I missed a CH, it would mean a wipe.
But still, all that can be learned with time and learning it was easy. There will always be people who don't learn to do the things needed to win, but I put them in the moron bracket, because I've seen moms, dads, kids and people from all walks of life do good in EQ and the one thing they had in common was a lot of free time. They weren't "smarter", "more educated" or skillful at games than anyone else, for many EQ was their first real PC game.
Its simply not true. EQ1 you can get into PuGs and do just fine in the rougher higher level zones. WoW PuGs? lol yea right.
Seriously EQ1 forced players to learn and to play smart to over come the challenge. WoW does not teach players to play smart, they teach players to put in the time to gain the reward.
It was very very easy to pick out bad players in EQ1 because the game forced you to play smart. It really did, it taugh players to learn their class, to make sure they knew what to do, how to do it and when to do it.
How many battles in EQ1 ended with "holy shit we won that" or something close to that. How many times did you think to yourself, "how the hell did I pull that off?". I bet it was more then a few times. In WoW you rarely get those moments. That is what in my opinion is missing.
I want that feeling of "OH SHIT I AM DEAD". I get that alot in EQ1 but what is so great about EQ1 is that when you get that feeling you still have a chance to win if you are a smart player.
Sooner or Later
What WoW do you play? Glad your raid doesn't mind carrying you along.
A weak DPS rotation (not hitting the righ skills in the right order at the right times) equals weak dps, and in dps race fights (Patchwerk, for a classic example) that's a wipe.
Hitting a buff instead of a heal at the wrong time will wipe a raid, if you're a healer.
Not hitting the right cooldowns or using a solid rotation can cause your to lose aggro as a tank. This will cause other players to die, and then could make it so there are not sufficient people up to complete an encounter.
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Maybe, I have a love / hate affair with EQ and much of what I say is impulse driven.
I think EQ was sometimes challenging, but in weird ways and I didn't find out till DoD that most of the guilds go their strategies during beta events. So it kind of put into perspective how hard these raids were when many guilds just copied the strategies.
I think I did 3 betas and I basically knew the expansion before it was released and many of the info I got was from beta boards and from the events Nodyin and other developers did with us. So.....that was all very easy to be honest.
But I can understand where you're coming from gameplay-wise, it mattered what you did in EQ and where you stood, what ability you used and how you pulled, did CC, Mezz, DPS. It's far easier in WoW, agreed.
But somehow I all thingk that time would overcome this for most players if they put in the time. I encoutered very few players who played a lot and sucked, most were very good players.
I can't wait till they make a game which has both a challenge, community and do away with the excessive timesinks.
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
Sorry but you have this ass back words.
Casuals want the level 100 equipment at the same time the hardcores get the level 100 equipment because its not fair to the casuals to have to wait longer to get the same rewards.
So to fix this issue developers took out the journey that the hardcore players loved and enjoyed to get that level 100 equipment and made the level 100 equipment a reward for completing the quest chains that can be completed in short play sessions.
Sooner or Later
It's really not comparable to EQ, most abilities in WoW are on very very short timers. In EQ your defensive discs are locked out for 1 hour+. Fire it at the wrong time and if you're the raid tank, your raid would sit there for 1 hour+.
I remember sitting in CoA for over 30 minutes waiting for my and our tank's abilities to pop after a raid. That simply does not happen in WoW.
Also the importance of WoW's abilities are often minimal, discing in EQ means you're going to do up to 3x your DPS or more, combine discs with a bard and you can do 4x your normal DPS.
EQ is also a lot more tank-central, the ability to tank for casters simply doesn't exist in EQ, in WoW my druid and priest can tank lvl 70 elites, in EQ my druid would get one-rounded in a split second.
Comparing the two is good and all, but both games have little in-common gameplay wise, they just use similar concepts.
Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW...
Sigh.
You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid.
Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy.
Hmm... so good.. so it's... easy....
FUCKING DUUUHHHHH
Ohoo, I think the genre title needs some heavy reworking....
I think it should be "Singleplayer Online Role Playing Game"
Who said anything about not wanting to associate with anyone? I just despise raiding with a passion. I have no problem grouping. I don't working for rewards but I don't think I should have to raid to get it. Some people have jobs and can't put in that time nightly. I really don't care if it takes me a few months or more of work with myself or small groups but give me something worth working for.
Well I'm not talking specifically about WoW raiding, in general it really doesn't matter all that much. Mistakes are "usually" forgiven in WoW.
I played a fury warrior, so I guess you could throw me into the DPS bracket.
In EQ that fraction of a second pushing fortitude does matter and your raid will wipe in that second and summon 54 people to the feet of the mob and it's over.
Casters in WoW are semi-tanks and getting a hit from a trash mob in WoW often doesn't wipe you, hell you can spec tank as a druid in WoW. Try surviving a round in EQ as a caster, at any level this will guarantee a wipe.
I'm not trying to downplay or overplay these 2 MMO, because like I said, imo anyone could learn to raid EQ and anyone who wasn't stupid could raid in EQ. I'm simply stating my observations and if I compare the two, yes WoW is much easier.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I'll agree that EQ WAS more challenging than WoW. And yes, the concept of a tank was nigh-irrelevant in EQ.
I was mostly saying that timing and skill are still important. The fights maybe be less difficult, but if you think you can hit any button any time you want and still win, you're wrong.
Now, about whether casuals want instant grat or not. I think the confusion here stems from the fact that there are, in essence, two types of casuals. for instance, I consider myself one. I work full time and have a life outside of gaming. I only play a few hours a week usually. I DON'T want the best uber gear naows kthxbye. I DO believe that I should be entitled to good (not the best, but good) gear if I take time and put effort in. I DO believe I should be able to see whatever game content I want without being hardcore. It shouldn't be that only the guys that play 60+ hours a week can fight Arthas, for an example. Everyone should be able to see that if they work for it! The hardcore guys should get it first, and (maybe) get better rewards for the effort they put in. But we're playing the same game, we should have access to (mostly) the same content. I don't expect to ever be as good geared, or do the most difficult hard mode challenges, but I shouldn't be penalized as a player because I don't spend my entire life at my keyboard. Nor, however, should I expect to be rewarded the same as those who do.
There is a second category of person, who wants it all now with no work put in. I hate them as much as hardcore players do.
Spoken like a true DPS player in WoW...
Sigh.
You even miss one GCD as a Healer or mess up a threat rotation as a Tank and you can, and often do, wipe your raid.
Anyone who thinks WOW raiding is "easy" either never got past Naxx 10 or Kara or is really good at the game, and thinks because they are so good it's so easy.
Hmm... so good.. so it's... easy....
FUCKING DUUUHHHHH
nobody is saying its "Easy". I am simply saying its Easier compared to EQ.
So WoW is easy compared to EQ1. Do you get it?
Sooner or Later
Clearly, you want an endless treadmill where hours played = power. That's your preference and that's fine. But that's not what MMOs are about or why people play them.
Continuing this debate is fruitless; you're entrenched in the ideal image you have in your mind about an MMO where you can continue to outpace everyone ad inifinitum. We're not discussing the current state of MMOs, you're peddling your own opinions and preferences as an ideal, and I've no interest in that.
So, I'll leave you with one point; you're absolutely wrong in your assertion that casuals want instant gratification.
If anything, it's the polar opposite. Casuals are willing to slowly work towards (for example) a set of level 100 equipment, whereas it's the hardcores who rush to get the same set of level 100 equipment.
In essence, they rush towards the gratification because they want it faster.
For the purpose of this topic, opposing to instant gratification, an endless treadmill is what I want.
Outside of this topic, Im more prone to player skill = power games, but Im still waiting for it to become mainstream on MMOs.
I agree with you that we wont agree about what MMOs are about. As though why people play them, I reserve the right to specify that "Achievers" play MMOs for the reasons I exposed, Killers (in games where time = power and reward/allow pvp tend to be included, although a series of restrictions apply), Explorers and Socializers, have their own reasons and I dont include them on my claim.
Those four types of players are classified by the Bartle test you must be acquainted to and Im sure you dont oppose to such classification.
Either casuals or hardcore players both have a bit of each of those 4 steryotipes, those who want instant gratification are not achievers, unless you consider achievers those who just want to achieve things regardless of their time and effort spent, whose claim would bring us back to the definition of achievers, but I dont think you will adventure through such terrain.
Casual players might not want instant gratification, and thats not my claim.
My claim is about the contradictory/inconsistence of casual players wanting game mechanics/design decisions that allow them to compete with hardcore players. I use the terms hardcore and casual just to avoid the elipse of "people who spend more/less time and effort".
Also, there is mention of casual players wanting a level 100 item that a hardcore players just achieved, well, for me, according to my beliefs, thats ridiculous. It wouldnt be such a problem if players in general didnt started to play MMOs with "end game" goals in mind, such as the level 100 item in the example.
Im not opposed to their right of having access to "all content", Im against the idea behind "all content" itself. If there wasnt a concept of "all content" in the first place, people wouldnt be bragging about why its so hard to achieve it. To avoid that, I think MMORPGs should be made like Star Wars TOR is being made, creating an achievable story driven content, just so casuals can get satisfied with that, every time and effort spent outside the story arch, whose purpose is just to progress the character vertically shouldnt be marketted to casual players, it shouldnt even be marketted at all, it should silently exist just to please achievers who want endless progression and meaningfull rewards for their consistent time and effort spent even after the "vanilla story" has ended.
Those hardcore achievers, after amassing enourmous power, long after having completed whatever story driven elements, would righteously own those casual who just played the story mode and decided to do some PVP. Once pwned, they would either start working hard themselfs, since the game should be worth it or doesnt try at all, because its not worth it and because they already "finished it" (the achievable story-driven content). Such would put the MMORPGs back to its axis.
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Very reasonable.
Let casual players fight and defeat Arthas, its fine.
But dont cap the game so it doesnt matter how hard hardcore players work, their rewards wont be meaningfull and effective to the point when they can just overpower Arthas like the casuals would never be able to do. Thats what I think should be the difference. Casuals should be able to do it in a raid group, in lets say less than one month. But if hardcore players keep playing for 6 months 10+ hours a day non stop whatever hard work they spent should translate to meaningfull rewards/power so that they would easilly kill Arthas in a little group like it was nothing. That would be meaningfull.
We worked hard, we spent so much time and effort, that we evolved and progressed to a point that what once was hard (kill Arthas) when we were barelly able to do it (at the power curve of casual players after one month after the release of the expansion) and now we can even kill him in a little group! Thats proof that our time spent was worthy, because it caused a meaningfull effect.
Thats it. Not like it is now, where if hardcore players spent 2 thousand hours they just get a little stronger, no. They should get many times stronger, without diminishing returns auto-balancing their strenght from the casual players. Such mechanics just removes the reward aspect from the achievers and those who love the game and want to play it over and over and still feel rewarded like they did in the first month.
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Go read the sheep analogy some posts above.
LOL .. says you???
So WOW is catering to the casuals. It *is* marketed as a MMORPG. What are you going to do? Go to a gamestop and yell that it is not, that it should be MOG instead of MMORPG??
These are all games, some more persistent than others. People really do NOT care about your definition.
Go read the sheep analogy some posts above.
Millions of people play HALO3. Millions of people watched Star Trek. Millions of people followed 24. We are all sheep anyway. There is nothing wrong with it and it is fun.