Originally posted by Hyanmen That game was as casual as WoW is a puzzle game. That kind of overly harsh gamestyle doesn't really work anymore nowadays (did it work ever? Maybe japanese liked it...) but the one thing they got right was as you said, the world, immersion.. it all felt like it had a depth to it. But the game itself was poorly designed, and frankly- the only thing why people who played it say they liked it best was because they got a taste of the depth and immersion they couldn't find anywhere else, the community- not the game itself. That's why what my vision is right now is to remake the world as bigger and better, keep the immersion, make the grouping Casual but required, remove the "waiting", include the "playing". It's not the only way to make a world immersive- what UO did was quite fantastic too. But I think this is what has been never done before, so we might find what we're looking for there.. while keeping the 2nd M in the MMORPG at the same time.
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
You realize that the moment you reward grouping so people do it, those who dont want to group feel forced to do it? Half of the so-called "forced grouping" games are that way actually.... you can solo but grouping is more rewarding, so people say they are forced, because all that counts is getting the most bang out of your time.
And due to that sad, simple fact, its virtually impossible to have grouping without either: Nobody does it, or so few the games becomes known as a solo game and people leave, or everyone feels forced to do it to advance they preferred points on their preferred ladder.
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point. Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
Oh, maybe I tell in a bit more detail what I mean:
It'd be fake "forced grouping". The chance to solo is there, but the gain you get from grouping up is so big that everyone would want to lfg. It raises a question though: how easy should it be to solo to level cap? If it's too easy people might solo even though grouping up is much more beneficial... So in a way I disagree, in a way I agree with you. The FFXI'ist in me would like to have it so that as few as possible players would actually solo all the way- while everyone could solo some parts if they so wished. It's hard to balance for sure.
edit: but I don't think it's outdated and don't think it'd be flawed either- since it has been never done in such a way before. Of course not all games should cater to the same audience- pure soloists have lots of choices to choose from even if one game isn't what they wished it was. I'm sure lots of people would be at least willing to try forced casual grouping made easy and efficient- while the word "forced" may sound like a negative thing, it may actually do more good for the community aspect than one would think.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Yeah, I don't mind sinking my teeth into a challenge into a game. Rather it is a mmo, or single player. As long as the time was worth it. I now find current games a breeze. I remember playing my brother's NES back in the day. If you died and ran out of lives you were fucked. You really don't get games like that anymore, people cry it's too hard. I think the market is filled with games that are too EASY.
On mmos, I don't mind grinding to reaching a certain goal, rather it be that uber skill or shiny piece of loot. However, in most mmos it seems today they seem to lack any challenges or reasons for grinds. If you play a F2P cash shop you just end up buying all the uber equipment and brag about how big your wallet is. Or face a mindless grind. P2Ps aren't much better either. I think in the long run companies are going to easy way and catering to people who don't have the time to sink into their favorite games. Which is ultimately flooding the market with clones. I am hardcore, but even I don't wanna grind for hours to have enough resources to craft. Things just need to be evenly paced.
I am extremely tired, so if anyone is able to read that mess, congrats. I prolly missued the coma. Really sorry, lol.
Originally posted by Hyanmen That game was as casual as WoW is a puzzle game. That kind of overly harsh gamestyle doesn't really work anymore nowadays (did it work ever? Maybe japanese liked it...) but the one thing they got right was as you said, the world, immersion.. it all felt like it had a depth to it. But the game itself was poorly designed, and frankly- the only thing why people who played it say they liked it best was because they got a taste of the depth and immersion they couldn't find anywhere else, the community- not the game itself. That's why what my vision is right now is to remake the world as bigger and better, keep the immersion, make the grouping Casual but required, remove the "waiting", include the "playing". It's not the only way to make a world immersive- what UO did was quite fantastic too. But I think this is what has been never done before, so we might find what we're looking for there.. while keeping the 2nd M in the MMORPG at the same time.
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
You realize that the moment you reward grouping so people do it, those who dont want to group feel forced to do it? Half of the so-called "forced grouping" games are that way actually.... you can solo but grouping is more rewarding, so people say they are forced, because all that counts isgetting the most bang out of your time.
And due to that sad, simple fact, its virtually impossible to have grouping without either: Nobody does it, or so few the games becomes known as a solo game and people leave, or everyone feels forced to do it to advance they preferred points on their preferred ladder.
Hell ya another person with a brain on this site. Why cant there be more people who realize this? Is it really that hard to see this? Or are people just to delusional and dont want to come to reality to understand it?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'm somewhere in hte middle on this. I have a life outside MMOs, and I intend to enjoy it. However, I want to enjoy my time in MMOs as well. That said.
1) The BEST gear should always require extra effort; whether that be a group, or an substantial time/money sink like crafting. You shouldn't walk in and become a god.
2) ADEQUATE gear, however, should not require you to spend every day, 8 hours+ a day, raiding with a serious guild, hoping to earn enough dkp to win a roll for one item. Adequate gear should be obtainable for some sort of trade in-game, or a gaming experience (ie quest or dungeon) that can be done fairly quickly and easily.
3) I should never be forced to group in order to play period (ie oldschool ffxi or EQ, where you could not level at all without a full group; and that group needed certain specific classes in it and god help you if you weren't one).
4) However, I should be able to play SOME content in the game solo.
5) However, the best encounters, the highest rewards, the most fantastic quests/boss battles should require a group. This is a social RPG guys. Get back to pen and paper and find a party of adventurers.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed.
To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want.
Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
Again. Please remember the roots of all RPGs are tabletoppers like D&D. Think you're gonna get epic-level magical weapons and a rod of wishes just for wallking around town and killing 1-2 kobolds by yourself? No. You might get some decent gear, but unless your GM runs a Monty Haul, you're going to need a full party for that level of reward. you can't give people that kind of reward for solo play even IF you develop a solo caompaign that complex, involved, and challenging. Simple because some roles in games are not suited to difficult solo fights. And if you tailor those roles/classes' campaigns to be that much easier, the ones who have it harder will feel like they were punished for being more capable of soloing. You can't win.
Also, if you're playing MMOs just to talk/mingle, let me introduce you to a little thing called IRC.
You cant argue with success. The most loved game on the planet right now is the most successful and also the most hated by many at this forum. Are devs going to cater to the few or the many? Less time sink, lest death penalty and solo friendly sells. Like it or not the "hardcore" mmo days are over.
You cant argue with success. The most loved game on the planet right now is the most successful and also the most hated by many at this forum. Are devs going to cater to the few or the many? Less time sink, lest death penalty and solo friendly sells. Like it or not the "hardcore" mmo days are over.
So when Beatles and Elvis were the top dogs, suddenly everyone should've tried to do the same? Or when it was Hair Metal days? Or Grunge? Or Emo/Alternative/Techno/Bluegrass? Come on, no matter WHAT is on top, you shouldn't really emulate it, unless you want to fall in obscurity, since people always have the original.
And I've changed my mind. It's not about "instant gratification". It's about the ride to the top not being enjoyable and people not wanting to work for anything.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
You cant argue with success. The most loved game on the planet right now is the most successful and also the most hated by many at this forum. Are devs going to cater to the few or the many? Less time sink, lest death penalty and solo friendly sells. Like it or not the "hardcore" mmo days are over.
So when Beatles and Elvis were the top dogs, suddenly everyone should've tried to do the same? Or when it was Hair Metal days? Or Grunge? Or Emo/Alternative/Techno/Bluegrass? Come on, no matter WHAT is on top, you shouldn't really emulate it, unless you want to fall in obscurity, since people always have the original.
And I've changed my mind. It's not about "instant gratification". It's about the ride to the top not being enjoyable and people not wanting to work for anything.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
I thought we were talking about games. Are games that pivotal to your life that you derive your accomplishments from it?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
And that is why most people do not play in online competition. That is why SP FPS have solo campaigns. That is why people go through a 10-15 hrs story session of HALO3 and reselll to gamestop.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
No, that's why most movies are popcorn-entertainment without a spark or cloned dramedies. That's to say, they're all crap.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
Did this guy hit on the spot or what? I would also like to add, easy gameplay does not equal 'instant gratification'. In all MMOs I've never been just 'given' anything by the devs, I've worked for, maybe not as hard as in other games, but I worked for it none the less. Therefore the concept of 'instant gratification' is a misconception of your mind, since in every game, you work for something. So all games are 'deleyed gratification' if you will, some longer than others, but still none of them just 'give' you things.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
No, that's why most movies are popcorn-entertainment without a spark or cloned dramedies. That's to say, they're all crap.
Then feel free to do away with all your entertainment. I am more than happy to watch Wolverine, Star Trek, Transformer, and all the popcorn entertainment to have fun.
I've read alot and I mean alot of nonsense in this thread. Everyone is off base and guessing. The answer is simply human nature. Impatient and want everything now, believing something new and better will be there tommorow.
They rather play a boring instance of fully geared scrimages of 20 on 20 players with gratuity given over and over by simply pressing a button to start..They go in not even playing the game right, not even knowing the rules, and they dont care to protect their teammates.. They simply want to bash the first red dot into oblivion and call themselves awesome..
The joke is, its simply manknd being pathetic, lazy, ignorant and just flat out stupid, tunnel visioned idiots.
Unfortunately in the age of gamers, too many with no skill, no patience, no honor, no pride.. Gimme Gimme Gimme, is the attitude, and they not even learn just how sad and pathetic they are... Maybe parents did too many drugs in the 60's i dunno.. but its a joke.
Whats even more sad, is these are the same people whoa re putting all the wrong thoughts into the developers heads, steering them constantly in the wrong direction, causing the game to suck, and developers to get lazy cuz they can't figure out why all their games suck. Well other than the fact they suck at what they do ha ha
If casual players are the ones seeking "instant gratification" then why is it that in most games it's the "hardcores" that rush to lvl cap within the first few weeks, and then use someones posted raid walkthru to beat the raid dungeons. For most casuals it takes a while to play to lvl cap even when they group.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
And that is why most people do not play in online competition. That is why SP FPS have solo campaigns. That is why people go through a 10-15 hrs story session of HALO3 and reselll to gamestop. Not everyone goes online to compete.
See, that's why I don't usually play to compete. But that's my entire point. I don't play MMOs to compete as well. I am there to enjoy the ride, while it lasts, not to get some misterious "prize" at the top. I am fully aware, that my style is more laid-back and casual and I don't DEMAND the rewards, that come with the hardcore style. If I want them that much, I will break my ass and get them the traditional way, but I don't see the point. I don't want that piece of shining pixels. I want enjoyment. And believe me, most modern MMOs are about the race to the top being a fast as possible (and as boring as possible) and then staying on that top and grinding gear. Only some people want that gear to be acsessible to them, when they aren't competetive. Huh.
Originally posted by sanders01
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by toddze
Originally posted by Vrazule
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed. To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want. Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
wah wah wah. I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers. People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
Did this guy hit on the spot or what? I would also like to add, easy gameplay does not equal 'instant gratification'. In all MMOs I've never been just 'given' anything by the devs, I've worked for, maybe not as hard as in other games, but I worked for it none the less. Therefore the concept of 'instant gratification' is a misconception of your mind, since in every game, you work for something. So all games are 'deleyed gratification' if you will, some longer than others, but still none of them just 'give' you things.
I didn't say, that they do. I say that people want them to be able to deliver that. To be given the free pass to the top. Which is ridiculous.
Let me give you another example. I was recently in MK vs DC tournament, local, nothing serious. It had gone on for several weeks, every weekend, and each day had separate prizes (gift certificates for 3k, 5k and 10k roubles). I've never played that game competitevly before so, even though most gamers there were even worse, I got the floor moped with me the first two weekends I was in. So I got angry, trained two hours a day for a week and eventually got third and second places. And have nearly beaten the guy who basically took all first places and was (as far, as I know) a local Tekken champion. See? I didn't whine, that it was unfair, that because of more dedication he was better than me. Instead, I gritted my teeth and tried to beat him in his own game. But when I lost I, again, didn't call him a "low-life", who spends his time wanking off his controller for days, and I, with my uni, girlfriend and work has much better things to do, but want the same reward. You know why? Because I'm not a sore loser and I don't envy people, who are better, than me at some things, be it MMOs, fighting games or calculus. That's just how life is.
You don't go to billiard game and demand, that all the holes on all the tables were made wider, just so YOU could have an easier time playing it.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
If casual players are the ones seeking "instant gratification" then why is it that in most games it's the "hardcores" that rush to lvl cap within the first few weeks, and then use someones posted raid walkthru to beat the raid dungeons. For most casuals it takes a while to play to lvl cap even when they group.
Because they have more time to play, they get there faster.. hardcore want instant gratification as much as casuals though, it's not really something that comes from your playstyle, it's just human nature.
Before they feel a real sense of accomplishment they won't realize that instant gratification isn't the best way. It's only artificial and you can never get enough of it.. even if you want it "just to be able to do something else instead".. it will just go in a loop, a neverending cycle.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.
I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.
Well that's some odd thinking you got there.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
well, i am one of those people that prefers to solo. not because i can do it faster, not because of instant gratification, but because 90% of the other players are too stupid to know how a group works. and they dont want to listen to you when you try to help them learn. when i can get stuff done by myself, without all the drama, and ridiculous idiots constantly getting me killed or making us fail, then i will do it.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
Did this guy hit on the spot or what? I would also like to add, easy gameplay does not equal 'instant gratification'. In all MMOs I've never been just 'given' anything by the devs, I've worked for, maybe not as hard as in other games, but I worked for it none the less. Therefore the concept of 'instant gratification' is a misconception of your mind, since in every game, you work for something. So all games are 'deleyed gratification' if you will, some longer than others, but still none of them just 'give' you things.
I didn't say, that they do. I say that people want them to be able to deliver that. To be given the free pass to the top. Which is ridiculous.
Well, no game gives a free pass. Take WOW for an example. Even the easiest raid (say Arch or Emalon), you need to be there with a bunch of people, spend 30 min, learn the fight (particularly on Emalon), and the chance of getting that epic is LOW.
Is this rocket science? No. Is it learnable for almost anyone? Yes. But it does NOT feel like a free pass and create a perfect illusion of accomplishment. That is why WOW is so popular. It create the nicest balance for the largest group of people. Not too difficult to alien anyone, but you stil have to spend some time learning.
Perfect for people who have little time but want to have some fun.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
Did this guy hit on the spot or what? I would also like to add, easy gameplay does not equal 'instant gratification'. In all MMOs I've never been just 'given' anything by the devs, I've worked for, maybe not as hard as in other games, but I worked for it none the less. Therefore the concept of 'instant gratification' is a misconception of your mind, since in every game, you work for something. So all games are 'deleyed gratification' if you will, some longer than others, but still none of them just 'give' you things.
I didn't say, that they do. I say that people want them to be able to deliver that. To be given the free pass to the top. Which is ridiculous.
Well, no game gives a free pass. Take WOW for an example. Even the easiest raid (say Arch or Emalon), you need to be there with a bunch of people, spend 30 min, learn the fight (particularly on Emalon), and the chance of getting that epic is LOW.
Is this rocket science? No. Is it learnable for almost anyone? Yes. But it does NOT feel like a free pass and create a perfect illusion of accomplishment. That is why WOW is so popular. It create the nicest balance for the largest group of people. Not too difficult to alien anyone, but you stil have to spend some time learning.
Perfect for people who have little time but want to have some fun.
Seriously, dude, are you even reading, what I'm saying?
I DON'T say, that they DELIVER a free pass. I say that people WANT them to.
Is this so hard to understand?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Comments
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
You realize that the moment you reward grouping so people do it, those who dont want to group feel forced to do it? Half of the so-called "forced grouping" games are that way actually.... you can solo but grouping is more rewarding, so people say they are forced, because all that counts is getting the most bang out of your time.
And due to that sad, simple fact, its virtually impossible to have grouping without either: Nobody does it, or so few the games becomes known as a solo game and people leave, or everyone feels forced to do it to advance they preferred points on their preferred ladder.
Oh, maybe I tell in a bit more detail what I mean:
It'd be fake "forced grouping". The chance to solo is there, but the gain you get from grouping up is so big that everyone would want to lfg. It raises a question though: how easy should it be to solo to level cap? If it's too easy people might solo even though grouping up is much more beneficial... So in a way I disagree, in a way I agree with you. The FFXI'ist in me would like to have it so that as few as possible players would actually solo all the way- while everyone could solo some parts if they so wished. It's hard to balance for sure.
edit: but I don't think it's outdated and don't think it'd be flawed either- since it has been never done in such a way before. Of course not all games should cater to the same audience- pure soloists have lots of choices to choose from even if one game isn't what they wished it was. I'm sure lots of people would be at least willing to try forced casual grouping made easy and efficient- while the word "forced" may sound like a negative thing, it may actually do more good for the community aspect than one would think.
Yeah, I don't mind sinking my teeth into a challenge into a game. Rather it is a mmo, or single player. As long as the time was worth it. I now find current games a breeze. I remember playing my brother's NES back in the day. If you died and ran out of lives you were fucked. You really don't get games like that anymore, people cry it's too hard. I think the market is filled with games that are too EASY.
On mmos, I don't mind grinding to reaching a certain goal, rather it be that uber skill or shiny piece of loot. However, in most mmos it seems today they seem to lack any challenges or reasons for grinds. If you play a F2P cash shop you just end up buying all the uber equipment and brag about how big your wallet is. Or face a mindless grind. P2Ps aren't much better either. I think in the long run companies are going to easy way and catering to people who don't have the time to sink into their favorite games. Which is ultimately flooding the market with clones. I am hardcore, but even I don't wanna grind for hours to have enough resources to craft. Things just need to be evenly paced.
I am extremely tired, so if anyone is able to read that mess, congrats. I prolly missued the coma. Really sorry, lol.
I agreed with your entire post right up to the highlighted point.
Forced grouping should never be necessary, it's an outmoded and flawed design. Grouping should be fun/rewarding enough that people want to group up, but no-one should be penalised for choosing to go it solo, 'cos lots of people like to do it.
You realize that the moment you reward grouping so people do it, those who dont want to group feel forced to do it? Half of the so-called "forced grouping" games are that way actually.... you can solo but grouping is more rewarding, so people say they are forced, because all that counts isgetting the most bang out of your time.
And due to that sad, simple fact, its virtually impossible to have grouping without either: Nobody does it, or so few the games becomes known as a solo game and people leave, or everyone feels forced to do it to advance they preferred points on their preferred ladder.
Hell ya another person with a brain on this site. Why cant there be more people who realize this? Is it really that hard to see this? Or are people just to delusional and dont want to come to reality to understand it?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I'm somewhere in hte middle on this. I have a life outside MMOs, and I intend to enjoy it. However, I want to enjoy my time in MMOs as well. That said.
1) The BEST gear should always require extra effort; whether that be a group, or an substantial time/money sink like crafting. You shouldn't walk in and become a god.
2) ADEQUATE gear, however, should not require you to spend every day, 8 hours+ a day, raiding with a serious guild, hoping to earn enough dkp to win a roll for one item. Adequate gear should be obtainable for some sort of trade in-game, or a gaming experience (ie quest or dungeon) that can be done fairly quickly and easily.
3) I should never be forced to group in order to play period (ie oldschool ffxi or EQ, where you could not level at all without a full group; and that group needed certain specific classes in it and god help you if you weren't one).
4) However, I should be able to play SOME content in the game solo.
5) However, the best encounters, the highest rewards, the most fantastic quests/boss battles should require a group. This is a social RPG guys. Get back to pen and paper and find a party of adventurers.
I'm all about instant gratification in a game. I reserve hard work and a sense of accomplishment for real life, where it really matters. If you really feel the need to get this from a game, then perhaps there are issues with your life that need to be addressed.
To the above poster. You're deluded if you think grouping is the defining social mechanic in an MMO. It's the persistant world, that allows people to mingle and chat that is the defining social mechanic and guess what, it doesn't force you to do so, but rather presents you with the tools if that's what you want.
Group mechanics are nothing more than a play style, they are no more social than anything else you can do in a game. Simply because developers CHOOSE to make it the premiere play style does not make it right.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Again. Please remember the roots of all RPGs are tabletoppers like D&D. Think you're gonna get epic-level magical weapons and a rod of wishes just for wallking around town and killing 1-2 kobolds by yourself? No. You might get some decent gear, but unless your GM runs a Monty Haul, you're going to need a full party for that level of reward. you can't give people that kind of reward for solo play even IF you develop a solo caompaign that complex, involved, and challenging. Simple because some roles in games are not suited to difficult solo fights. And if you tailor those roles/classes' campaigns to be that much easier, the ones who have it harder will feel like they were punished for being more capable of soloing. You can't win.
Also, if you're playing MMOs just to talk/mingle, let me introduce you to a little thing called IRC.
You cant argue with success. The most loved game on the planet right now is the most successful and also the most hated by many at this forum. Are devs going to cater to the few or the many? Less time sink, lest death penalty and solo friendly sells. Like it or not the "hardcore" mmo days are over.
So when Beatles and Elvis were the top dogs, suddenly everyone should've tried to do the same? Or when it was Hair Metal days? Or Grunge? Or Emo/Alternative/Techno/Bluegrass? Come on, no matter WHAT is on top, you shouldn't really emulate it, unless you want to fall in obscurity, since people always have the original.
And I've changed my mind. It's not about "instant gratification". It's about the ride to the top not being enjoyable and people not wanting to work for anything.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
So when Beatles and Elvis were the top dogs, suddenly everyone should've tried to do the same? Or when it was Hair Metal days? Or Grunge? Or Emo/Alternative/Techno/Bluegrass? Come on, no matter WHAT is on top, you shouldn't really emulate it, unless you want to fall in obscurity, since people always have the original.
And I've changed my mind. It's not about "instant gratification". It's about the ride to the top not being enjoyable and people not wanting to work for anything.
Hey, Vrazule, let me give you a situation. You have a game, let's say, a fighting game. When you buy it, you can acsess almost all of the content and if your hands are in the right place, probably beat it with all the characters. However, if you go to the tournament or online, you're going to get moped by nearly-fanatical peple, who play day and night, discover tactics and train their skills with particular characters. Are you going to come up to them and say "it's not fair, everyone should be able to win, right here and right now!"?
I thought we were talking about games. Are games that pivotal to your life that you derive your accomplishments from it?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
And that is why most people do not play in online competition. That is why SP FPS have solo campaigns. That is why people go through a 10-15 hrs story session of HALO3 and reselll to gamestop.
Not everyone goes online to compete.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
No, that's why most movies are popcorn-entertainment without a spark or cloned dramedies. That's to say, they're all crap.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
Did this guy hit on the spot or what? I would also like to add, easy gameplay does not equal 'instant gratification'. In all MMOs I've never been just 'given' anything by the devs, I've worked for, maybe not as hard as in other games, but I worked for it none the less. Therefore the concept of 'instant gratification' is a misconception of your mind, since in every game, you work for something. So all games are 'deleyed gratification' if you will, some longer than others, but still none of them just 'give' you things.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
wah wah wah.
I work hard in life to get shiny things and i work in the oil-field, I dont mind "working" in a game for shinny things. I dont get handouts in life I dont expect them in a game. I dont understand why/how you can turn the switch on/off for a sense of accomplishment.
Of course you can. Games are entertainment. It is about consuming fun content, not doing hard work. I do that in real life. And games are about an ILLUSION of accomplishment. Whatever you get in a game is not real anyway. Smart developers figure out early that making games too hard will drive away customers.
People want to beat the boss, get the epic, and feel good, not spending 20 hrs wiping and feel bad. That is why most blockbuster movies have happy endings.
No, that's why most movies are popcorn-entertainment without a spark or cloned dramedies. That's to say, they're all crap.
Then feel free to do away with all your entertainment. I am more than happy to watch Wolverine, Star Trek, Transformer, and all the popcorn entertainment to have fun.
I've read alot and I mean alot of nonsense in this thread. Everyone is off base and guessing. The answer is simply human nature. Impatient and want everything now, believing something new and better will be there tommorow.
They rather play a boring instance of fully geared scrimages of 20 on 20 players with gratuity given over and over by simply pressing a button to start..They go in not even playing the game right, not even knowing the rules, and they dont care to protect their teammates.. They simply want to bash the first red dot into oblivion and call themselves awesome..
The joke is, its simply manknd being pathetic, lazy, ignorant and just flat out stupid, tunnel visioned idiots.
Unfortunately in the age of gamers, too many with no skill, no patience, no honor, no pride.. Gimme Gimme Gimme, is the attitude, and they not even learn just how sad and pathetic they are... Maybe parents did too many drugs in the 60's i dunno.. but its a joke.
Whats even more sad, is these are the same people whoa re putting all the wrong thoughts into the developers heads, steering them constantly in the wrong direction, causing the game to suck, and developers to get lazy cuz they can't figure out why all their games suck. Well other than the fact they suck at what they do ha ha
All kidding aside,
Peter Porker
If casual players are the ones seeking "instant gratification" then why is it that in most games it's the "hardcores" that rush to lvl cap within the first few weeks, and then use someones posted raid walkthru to beat the raid dungeons. For most casuals it takes a while to play to lvl cap even when they group.
See, that's why I don't usually play to compete.
But that's my entire point. I don't play MMOs to compete as well. I am there to enjoy the ride, while it lasts, not to get some misterious "prize" at the top. I am fully aware, that my style is more laid-back and casual and I don't DEMAND the rewards, that come with the hardcore style. If I want them that much, I will break my ass and get them the traditional way, but I don't see the point. I don't want that piece of shining pixels. I want enjoyment. And believe me, most modern MMOs are about the race to the top being a fast as possible (and as boring as possible) and then staying on that top and grinding gear. Only some people want that gear to be acsessible to them, when they aren't competetive. Huh. I didn't say, that they do. I say that people want them to be able to deliver that. To be given the free pass to the top. Which is ridiculous.
Let me give you another example. I was recently in MK vs DC tournament, local, nothing serious. It had gone on for several weeks, every weekend, and each day had separate prizes (gift certificates for 3k, 5k and 10k roubles). I've never played that game competitevly before so, even though most gamers there were even worse, I got the floor moped with me the first two weekends I was in. So I got angry, trained two hours a day for a week and eventually got third and second places. And have nearly beaten the guy who basically took all first places and was (as far, as I know) a local Tekken champion.
See? I didn't whine, that it was unfair, that because of more dedication he was better than me. Instead, I gritted my teeth and tried to beat him in his own game. But when I lost I, again, didn't call him a "low-life", who spends his time wanking off his controller for days, and I, with my uni, girlfriend and work has much better things to do, but want the same reward. You know why? Because I'm not a sore loser and I don't envy people, who are better, than me at some things, be it MMOs, fighting games or calculus. That's just how life is.
You don't go to billiard game and demand, that all the holes on all the tables were made wider, just so YOU could have an easier time playing it.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Because they have more time to play, they get there faster.. hardcore want instant gratification as much as casuals though, it's not really something that comes from your playstyle, it's just human nature.
Before they feel a real sense of accomplishment they won't realize that instant gratification isn't the best way. It's only artificial and you can never get enough of it.. even if you want it "just to be able to do something else instead".. it will just go in a loop, a neverending cycle.
I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Well that's some odd thinking you got there.
well, i am one of those people that prefers to solo. not because i can do it faster, not because of instant gratification, but because 90% of the other players are too stupid to know how a group works. and they dont want to listen to you when you try to help them learn. when i can get stuff done by myself, without all the drama, and ridiculous idiots constantly getting me killed or making us fail, then i will do it.
Well, no game gives a free pass. Take WOW for an example. Even the easiest raid (say Arch or Emalon), you need to be there with a bunch of people, spend 30 min, learn the fight (particularly on Emalon), and the chance of getting that epic is LOW.
Is this rocket science? No. Is it learnable for almost anyone? Yes. But it does NOT feel like a free pass and create a perfect illusion of accomplishment. That is why WOW is so popular. It create the nicest balance for the largest group of people. Not too difficult to alien anyone, but you stil have to spend some time learning.
Perfect for people who have little time but want to have some fun.
Well, no game gives a free pass. Take WOW for an example. Even the easiest raid (say Arch or Emalon), you need to be there with a bunch of people, spend 30 min, learn the fight (particularly on Emalon), and the chance of getting that epic is LOW.
Is this rocket science? No. Is it learnable for almost anyone? Yes. But it does NOT feel like a free pass and create a perfect illusion of accomplishment. That is why WOW is so popular. It create the nicest balance for the largest group of people. Not too difficult to alien anyone, but you stil have to spend some time learning.
Perfect for people who have little time but want to have some fun.
Seriously, dude, are you even reading, what I'm saying?
I DON'T say, that they DELIVER a free pass. I say that people WANT them to.
Is this so hard to understand?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
