I dont think getting an item, getting a level, doing a quest, or killing an ai monster is an accomplishment. Usually its just something I have to dredge through to get to the fun part of the game PvP.
Sounds like Warhammer is the game for you. PVP at level 1. And its fun for awhile too.
Sounds like Warhammer is the game for you. PVP at level 1. And its fun for awhile too.
Actually I liked warhammer, If they had more guild based pvp instead of faction I prob would have played it. Then again it did feel too much like WoW.
This.
I'm not a huge pvper, but I'm SICK of factioned games. Everyone now lumps all the players into 2-3 "factions" they can never change from. What if I want to be a mercenary and switch sides? What, that might unbalance a pvp battle? Too bad, that's how life works.
Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing.
There shouldnt be an achievable end game.
If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it.
Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game.
Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores...
If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do.
Thats how the developers should tell people up front.
Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End.
No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better.
Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players.
Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
My say in the matter is simple: Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing. There shouldnt be an achievable end game. If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it. Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game. Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores... If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do. Thats how the developers should tell people up front. Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End. No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better. Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players. Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
My say in the matter is simple: Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing. There shouldnt be an achievable end game. If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it. Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game. Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores... If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do. Thats how the developers should tell people up front. Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End. No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better. Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players. Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from.
Its that or its not an MMORPG at all.
Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs.
MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?
My say in the matter is simple: Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing. There shouldnt be an achievable end game. If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it. Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game. Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores... If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do. Thats how the developers should tell people up front. Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End. No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better. Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players. Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Well, yes. I suppose I can't argue with that. It still pisses me off though.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
My say in the matter is simple: Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing. There shouldnt be an achievable end game. If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it. Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game. Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores... If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do. Thats how the developers should tell people up front. Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End. No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better. Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players. Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Well, yes. I suppose I can't argue with that. It still pisses me off though.
See, the thing is, people are born equal in rights, but not in abilities. It's just how life is. I suck at sports, but I'm good at slashers. Someone is a good raider, but struggles with history. Someone can write a code, but couldn't write a book if his life depended on it.
If you go to a game, that has a set list of objects to look up to SOMEONE is going to get better, than you at it. And a lot faster, as well. Players, in each and every game, WILL be inequal, in skill, dedication or organization. If you try and streamline them, you'll basically try to do what Communist party tried to do in the USSR, and there's nothing good to come out of it.
The problem is, unless "casual" mentality changes, we'll be stuck with people demanding reward they didn't earn. If anything, by giving it to the casuals, no matter how numerous, you're alienating the "hardcore" by robbing them of the feeling of achievment. And while "casuals" are the bulk of playerbases now, "hardcore" are more stable and tend not to leave the game, they like.
At the current point I don't really see a win-win situation. Either way, developers will most likely cater to the "casuals", while making everything in a game easily obtainable, thus robbing you of anything, remotely similair to uniqueness.
However, if they hit their head with something heavy and try to cater to "hardcore" we're, most likely, going to see a lot of grinding, PK and an even more retarded rat race to the epics.
We need something new. But, honestly, I don't think we'll ever get it.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Okay; the last pcouple of pages in this thread have contained some truly awful rationale.
"Casual have no right to even think of competing"
"If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do."
These are ridiculous statements.
If I play 40 hours a week (and am therefore "hardcore") and someone else plays 20 hours a week (and is therefore casual) and we both have the ability/skill (call it what you will) to complete a challenging encounter then the casual gamer has every right to "compete" with the hardcore guy.
You need to free yourself from the misconception that the amount of time spent in game is directly comparable to player skill. We've all played MMOs for a long time (presumably) and I'm sure most of us have met enough poorly-skilled hardcore players in our time.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I didn't bother reading the entire thread but I figured I wouldn't need to as there would be 90% garbage posts anyways.
So to get things back on track, I give you my opinion on instant gratification.
At first it's nice. It feels like all those past MMOs that took ages to get the goods paid off. You basically had to grind through game after game until you find the "treasure chest" of all games. It feels great, but it gets old fast. Taking an example from World of Warcraft (sorry guys), we find that after playing your first character from 1 to 80 (WoW stopped feeling the slightest bit challenging after TBC launched) you go through all the motions to either PvP for rewards and KNOW absolutely that you'll get the goodies or raid for the same stuff (the stuff PvP gear was based on). Half way through this onslaught of epic treasure, you start getting bored and decide that only an alt can make you feel good about playing the game again. You may be wrong, and you probably are.
You quickly find that you know all the quests, you've met all the characters and seen all the places before. It's fine though right? Wrong. Who wants to do the exact same thing over again knowing full well that you're going to get every single thing you stake your claim on. It quickly bores you and you find yourself quitting for the first time.
Now that you've quit and escaped the clutches of the beast, you think that only an old MMO that required you to spend many months, many sleepless nights just to get one of the hundreds of things you want, can make you happy again. Sadly this is no longer the case. That game that handed you everything you ever wanted when you wanted it warped your entire vision of the standards for rewards in MMOs.
It is a harsh reality and it happened to me and many others. This is why instant gratification bugs me and why it is ruining the RPG element in MMORPGs.
I didn't bother reading the entire thread but I figured I wouldn't need to as there would be 90% garbage posts anyways. So to get things back on track, I give you my opinion on instant gratification. At first it's nice. It feels like all those past MMOs that took ages to get the goods paid off. You basically had to grind through game after game until you find the "treasure chest" of all games. It feels great, but it gets old fast. Taking an example from World of Warcraft (sorry guys), we find that after playing your first character from 1 to 80 (WoW stopped feeling the slightest bit challenging after TBC launched) you go through all the motions to either PvP for rewards and KNOW absolutely that you'll get the goodies or raid for the same stuff (the stuff PvP gear was based on). Half way through this onslaught of epic treasure, you start getting bored and decide that only an alt can make you feel good about playing the game again. You may be wrong, and you probably are. You quickly find that you know all the quests, you've met all the characters and seen all the places before. It's fine though right? Wrong. Who wants to do the exact same thing over again knowing full well that you're going to get every single thing you stake your claim on. It quickly bores you and you find yourself quitting for the first time. Now that you've quit and escaped the clutches of the beast, you think that only an old MMO that required you to spend many months, many sleepless nights just to get one of the hundreds of things you want, can make you happy again. Sadly this is no longer the case. That game that handed you everything you ever wanted when you wanted it warped your entire vision of the standards for rewards in MMOs. It is a harsh reality and it happened to me and many others. This is why instant gratification bugs me and why it is ruining the RPG element in MMORPGs.
Signed.
People need to concentrate on WoW's effect on gaming in general and MMO mentality in particulair. It's... Not very good.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
It is solo ‘beat the game’ mentality applied to MMO’s. They grew up on Pokemon, but some here grew up on Monkey Island, others on Colossal Cave.
And yes, our perception of what makes a good MMORPG have changed. The grass is always greener on the other side. We wanted quests which were more easy to follow, PvP which was more easy to get into and more soloing content.
We found that the quests have become like something you would design for a ten year old and PvP has become intrusive and for many the sole reason they play. That grouping is what MMO’s are all about, lose the groups and you might as well be playing offline.
As for myself, I realised that less reliance on grouping would cause big issues, but I was fooled by the desire for easier quests and easier access to PvP. Now we have to eat that ‘greener’ grass and moo like the MMO dumb cattle modern MMO’s have turned us into.
Okay; the last pcouple of pages in this thread have contained some truly awful rationale. "Casual have no right to even think of competing"
"If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do." These are ridiculous statements. If I play 40 hours a week (and am therefore "hardcore") and someone else plays 20 hours a week (and is therefore casual) and we both have the ability/skill (call it what you will) to complete a challenging encounter then the casual gamer has every right to "compete" with the hardcore guy. You need to free yourself from the misconception that the amount of time spent in game is directly comparable to player skill. We've all played MMOs for a long time (presumably) and I'm sure most of us have met enough poorly-skilled hardcore players in our time.
In the context you spoke, comparing a casual with player skill and a hardcore without it, its different, and obviously the casual can compete.
In the context I spoke, I was refering to casuals vs hardcore regarding TIME spent, regardless of player skill.
Thats why I agree with what you said,
except the "truly awful rationale" and the "ridiculous statements" with is the result of your misinterpretation of what I said - without the player skill element (I was talking purelly about the time element)
Originally posted by Mystik86 Now that you've quit and escaped the clutches of the beast, you think that only an old MMO that required you to spend many months, many sleepless nights just to get one of the hundreds of things you want, can make you happy again. Sadly this is no longer the case. That game that handed you everything you ever wanted when you wanted it warped your entire vision of the standards for rewards in MMOs. It is a harsh reality and it happened to me and many others. This is why instant gratification bugs me and why it is ruining the RPG element in MMORPGs.
You say 'warped' and I say "set straight". As they say 'ignorance is bliss'. I fondly remember my first MMORPG where I would spend hours camping one spot, killing the same mob over and over for a bit of xp and loot. However, I would never go back to that type of play because I now realize how pointless that kind of mechanic is. Playing that way turned me into a zombie. I have experienced a better way of playing an I am not going to regress in order to recapture a false sense of nostalgia.
What you call 'instant gratification' I call 'properly paced' gratification.
"If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do."
In the context I spoke, I was refering to casuals vs hardcore regarding TIME spent, regardless of player skill.
Thats why I agree with what you said,
except the "truly awful rationale" and the "ridiculous statements" with is the result of your misinterpretation of what I said - without the player skill element (I was talking purelly about the time element)
You're disparaging casuals for being unwilling to .. not be casuals.
Hence; ridiculous.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
But thats the core element of MMORPGs. Persistent - Virtual - Worlds where people LIVE IN. Progression happens over time. Progression segregates people. Those elements were present in all MMORPGs since the beggining. Casuals can play in a persistent world, everyone can. But not expect to COMPETE. You want power, spend time and effort. Casuals dont do it. But thats how you achieve power in persistent worlds. Hardcores do it. If hardcores do it, therefore achieving power and casuals dont. They obviously wont have power. If they want it, they have to spent more time and effort, stop being casuals. Its a contradiction for casual players DEMAND the RIGHT to COMPETE with Hardcore players in such persistent worlds!!! If casuals want to compete with hardcores, they can, just NOT IN A PERSISTENT WORLD = MMORPG. Go play multiplayer first person shooters online where there is no objective progression element over time. Please don't tell me not to play the genre I've been enjoying for 12 years. It's very ignorant. I could just as equally tell you to go play asian grinders where only time investment matters, but I'm above that sort of pettiness. A casual player may take longer to get to "end-game" than a hardcore player. That's natural and to be expected. No-one complains about it; the casual is happy to know that he/she will eventually "catch up". The disparity happens once both player types have done so. Developers, in an attempt to quell the vocal minority of hardcore players, put a lot of timesinks and treadmills in the game. This keeps the hardcore players busy and happy. Some of this content is accessible to casual gamers who can, (like the levelling process) eventually catch up. If it's not a silly time investment, everyone is happy. The problem comes with "hardcore" raiding and suchlike. The developers put in an activity that requires a consecutive time investment that prevents casuals from experiencing the content or ever catching up; they further compound the flawed design by putting the best gear there. Casuals should expect to, and be able to, compete in all aspects of an MMO.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Because people have lives. People have real jobs and they don't want to have to 'work' for shit in a game. Whine all you want but the hardcore days are gone.
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
Define a "real job" and a "real Life" for me please. Someone? Anyone that uses this bullshit. Come on I dare you.
The problem is people have been trained to expect rewards for no effort. EFFORT DOES NOT EQUAL TIME. Effort equals over coming the risk/challenge to get the reward. It has nothing to do with TIME. Again one more time for you stupid people EFFORT DOES NOT EQUAL TIME.
Every MMO every made is a timesink. PERIOD. Can you get that though your head? In all honesty WoW is a worst timesink theny EQ1 ever was. For one simple fact. All it takes to advance and get rewards in WoW is time.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
WoW requires time to advance, put in the time and you get the reward. That is a true timesink. Time = Reward that is the WoW model and yet people for some reason think that EQ1 had a worst timesink. That is simple not true.
Because people have lives. People have real jobs and they don't want to have to 'work' for shit in a game. Whine all you want but the hardcore days are gone.
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
Totally wrong. I played EQ from Kunark till SoD.
Raided Velious, GoD, CoA, AG/FC, Solteris and everything in SoD. Got many server firsts.
Not once....did I think it was "playing smart" that got me there, not once.
It was time spent in the game that got me there and anyone who spent enough time in the game got to the endgame unless you were a total moron. It was time, being in betas and....time....don't pretend it was anything else.
In all honesty WoW is a worst timesink theny EQ1 ever was. For one simple fact. All it takes to advance and get rewards in WoW is time. EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn. WoW requires time to advance, put in the time and you get the reward. That is a true timesink. Time = Reward that is the WoW model and yet people for some reason think that EQ1 had a worst timesink. That is simple not true.
That's funny, I thought in WoW to get the best rewards you had to actually kill the bosses and defeat the other players, not just spend time around them.
"In all honesty" you sir are an idiot.
Oh, wait, that's right.. "a monkey could bang their head on the keyboard" blah blah blah save the response I've already heard how "easy" everything in WOW is 1,209,187,193 times before, thanks, I get it... I obviously have the brain capacity of a potato and the motor skills of a toothbrush because I think it takes effort and skill to succeed in WOW at raiding/PvP to get the best rewards...
But thats the core element of MMORPGs. Persistent - Virtual - Worlds where people LIVE IN. Progression happens over time. Progression segregates people. Those elements were present in all MMORPGs since the beggining. Casuals can play in a persistent world, everyone can. But not expect to COMPETE. You want power, spend time and effort. Casuals dont do it. But thats how you achieve power in persistent worlds. Hardcores do it. If hardcores do it, therefore achieving power and casuals dont. They obviously wont have power. If they want it, they have to spent more time and effort, stop being casuals. Its a contradiction for casual players DEMAND the RIGHT to COMPETE with Hardcore players in such persistent worlds!!! If casuals want to compete with hardcores, they can, just NOT IN A PERSISTENT WORLD = MMORPG. Go play multiplayer first person shooters online where there is no objective progression element over time. Please don't tell me not to play the genre I've been enjoying for 12 years. It's very ignorant. I could just as equally tell you to go play asian grinders where only time investment matters, but I'm above that sort of pettiness. A casual player may take longer to get to "end-game" than a hardcore player. That's natural and to be expected. No-one complains about it; the casual is happy to know that he/she will eventually "catch up". The disparity happens once both player types have done so. Developers, in an attempt to quell the vocal minority of hardcore players, put a lot of timesinks and treadmills in the game. This keeps the hardcore players busy and happy. Some of this content is accessible to casual gamers who can, (like the levelling process) eventually catch up. If it's not a silly time investment, everyone is happy. The problem comes with "hardcore" raiding and suchlike. The developers put in an activity that requires a consecutive time investment that prevents casuals from experiencing the content or ever catching up; they further compound the flawed design by putting the best gear there. Casuals should expect to, and be able to, compete in all aspects of an MMO.
Even the idea of "catch up" is against the idea of a persistent world.
In a persistent world there is no "catch up". The world never stops circling for your amusement.
In a persistent world it continues to change and evolve regardless of your presence.
In a persistent world there is no mechanics to prevent hardcore players from keep progressing, because its against the idea of ever changing ever evolving world.
The idea of preventing hardcore from keep progressing (with level caps or item caps), or even allowing casual to expect to "catch up" does not belong to MMORPGs.
Progression is endless and infinite on MMORPGs.
End game is not reachable either in dinamic worlds.
In MMORPGs there cant be unique true heroes if every one is a maxed leveled hero. In MMORPGs everyone is born equal, and not everyone achieve greatness. Achievers is what made the genre what it is. Achievers are legion. If everyone have instant gratification there is no worthy achievement. One achievement is just worthy because ONLY SOME CAN ACHIEVE IT.
Not everyone can win in MMORPGs.
The mere idea of "end game" goes against the pure idea of ever changing/evolving persistent worlds, if there is one, the other cant exist.
People only discuss "balance" nowadays because the lazy people couldnt keep up and needed developers to limit (invisible hand of the market) the progression/power of hardcore players.
There are so many concepts about MMORPGs.
You seem like someone who started playing with WOW, because you seem to judge by the new concepts: everyone is a hero, everyone can compete, everything is balanced, the progress continues in the next expansion, time and effort shouldnt matter so everyone gets gratified with just 40 minutes of gameplay. And you say you play the genre since 12 years ago, huh...
Originally posted by heerobya Oh, wait, that's right.. "a monkey could bang their head on the keyboard" blah blah blah save the response I've already heard how "easy" everything in WOW is 1,209,187,193 times before, thanks, I get it... I obviously have the brain capacity of a potato and the motor skills of a toothbrush because I think it takes effort and skill to succeed in WOW at raiding/PvP to get the best rewards...
Yep, people get the wrong impression about WoW's raiding. It's undeniably easy to get onto the epic item ladder and start "getting your purple on" in entry level instances like Naxxramas at 80, so people make the incorrect assumption that all raiding in WoW is of an equal level of difficulty.
Obviously, anyone who plays WoW at that level knows different.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
If the vast majority of players are not able to become the hero and be powerful and achieve great things because they are not power-gamers...
Then why would they play? To be 2nd-classes citizens?
OH yeah, that's right.. they don't play those games, they play more casual friendly games like WOW, or Free Realms.
And the power-gamers have these whole games devoted just to other people like them!
We call them niche games.
And they can stay there.
But the problem is, they like coming over to the games where everyone else is, so they can get to the top faster and be better then everyone, and beat everyone at everything, and then complain that everyone else sucks and wonder why after 10 years the developers of theses games started listening to the 75% instead of the 25%.
Get some perspective chap. Not saying you are wrong, you are right about certain types of players, but that type is the minority.
Because people have lives. People have real jobs and they don't want to have to 'work' for shit in a game. Whine all you want but the hardcore days are gone.
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
Totally wrong. I played EQ from Kunark till SoD.
Raided Velious, GoD, CoA, AG/FC, Solteris and everything in SoD. Got many server firsts.
Not once....did I think it was "playing smart" that got me there, not once.
It was time spent in the game that got me there and anyone who spent enough time in the game got to the endgame unless you were a total moron. It was time, being in betas and....time....don't pretend it was anything else.
So in all your raiding you never had to load up the right spells? change spells out for different events? Change up your raid strat based on the boss? Choose the correct AAs? Learn to play your char correct? You did not have to think at all?
So you just pressed your abilities and watched the raid bosses die? WoW I wish I could play your version of EQ. Must of been nice.
Sure the more time, the better you got at your class but time alone did not get you gear or spells. Time was not the main factor in your EQ career. Again Eq1 is an MMO so it is a timesink but it requires alot more thinking then WoW does.
Comments
Sounds like Warhammer is the game for you. PVP at level 1. And its fun for awhile too.
Actually I liked warhammer, If they had more guild based pvp instead of faction I prob would have played it. Then again it did feel too much like WoW.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Actually I liked warhammer, If they had more guild based pvp instead of faction I prob would have played it. Then again it did feel too much like WoW.
This.
I'm not a huge pvper, but I'm SICK of factioned games. Everyone now lumps all the players into 2-3 "factions" they can never change from. What if I want to be a mercenary and switch sides? What, that might unbalance a pvp battle? Too bad, that's how life works.
My say in the matter is simple:
Casual have no right to even think of competing or being the best. If the game has a story line like a single player, make it so casuals can finish it in a reasonable ammount of time, but dont limit the progression for the hardcores who want to keep progressing.
There shouldnt be an achievable end game.
If there is a power cap (level/equipment or whatever), make it so people need an ungodly ammount of time to reach it.
Dont bother trying to balance the power of the characters, make it so they can get stronger for as long as they spent time and effort on the game.
Level cap if removed would solve the casual vs hardcore players problem, for the hardcores...
If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do.
Thats how the developers should tell people up front.
Make the game so casuals can enjoy the ride easily as they want, as long as they dont limit hardcore achievers experience just so casuals can "keep up" or "compete". They dont deserve it. They cant compete and they die. The End.
No more "invisible hand" of developers trying to balance the unbalanceable. Hardcores spent more time, time is power, hardcores have more power and the less stupid mechanics to counter the natural order of power the better.
Do everything you want as a casual, but realize that you are subpar to hardcore players and with them you cant compete, everything, except that sweet feel. That belongs to the hardcore players.
Developers should focus on making everything entertaining along the way. If they fail here(as they often do), they shouldnt bother making an MMORPG in the first place.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Also, you are not splitting a community. Communities were born split, based on subjective difference from players = the ammount of time and effort they spend to progress their characters on the persistent world of MMORPGs. Thats how it was when the first MMORPGs appeared, regardless what MMORPG school it derived from.
Its that or its not an MMORPG at all.
Want to escape from that rule? Devs have to label their games Multiplayer Online Games and its all fine by me, but not MMORPGs.
MMORPGs are about virtual worlds where people live in, worlds that persist regardless of the player and characters progressing and evolving along with the world. Is that clear enough now?
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Well, yes. I suppose I can't argue with that. It still pisses me off though.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Yes, because splitting the community up like this is doing wonders for the genre. Those "sub-par" players pay the same amount of money each month as the elite jerks. In my opinion, the hardcore players are the ones who are sub-par because they obviously have nothing else going for them in real life and the only reason they want more than everyone else is because they are greedy assholes and are using the video game to make up for something that is missing from their real lives.
That is still better than the "New World Order" = PAY TO WIN schemes from RMT.
Well, yes. I suppose I can't argue with that. It still pisses me off though.
See, the thing is, people are born equal in rights, but not in abilities. It's just how life is. I suck at sports, but I'm good at slashers. Someone is a good raider, but struggles with history. Someone can write a code, but couldn't write a book if his life depended on it.
If you go to a game, that has a set list of objects to look up to SOMEONE is going to get better, than you at it. And a lot faster, as well. Players, in each and every game, WILL be inequal, in skill, dedication or organization. If you try and streamline them, you'll basically try to do what Communist party tried to do in the USSR, and there's nothing good to come out of it.
The problem is, unless "casual" mentality changes, we'll be stuck with people demanding reward they didn't earn. If anything, by giving it to the casuals, no matter how numerous, you're alienating the "hardcore" by robbing them of the feeling of achievment. And while "casuals" are the bulk of playerbases now, "hardcore" are more stable and tend not to leave the game, they like.
At the current point I don't really see a win-win situation. Either way, developers will most likely cater to the "casuals", while making everything in a game easily obtainable, thus robbing you of anything, remotely similair to uniqueness.
However, if they hit their head with something heavy and try to cater to "hardcore" we're, most likely, going to see a lot of grinding, PK and an even more retarded rat race to the epics.
We need something new. But, honestly, I don't think we'll ever get it.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Okay; the last pcouple of pages in this thread have contained some truly awful rationale.
"Casual have no right to even think of competing"
"If casuals are not willing to spend time and effort, they cant cry about not being able to compete with those who do."
These are ridiculous statements.
If I play 40 hours a week (and am therefore "hardcore") and someone else plays 20 hours a week (and is therefore casual) and we both have the ability/skill (call it what you will) to complete a challenging encounter then the casual gamer has every right to "compete" with the hardcore guy.
You need to free yourself from the misconception that the amount of time spent in game is directly comparable to player skill. We've all played MMOs for a long time (presumably) and I'm sure most of us have met enough poorly-skilled hardcore players in our time.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I didn't bother reading the entire thread but I figured I wouldn't need to as there would be 90% garbage posts anyways.
So to get things back on track, I give you my opinion on instant gratification.
At first it's nice. It feels like all those past MMOs that took ages to get the goods paid off. You basically had to grind through game after game until you find the "treasure chest" of all games. It feels great, but it gets old fast. Taking an example from World of Warcraft (sorry guys), we find that after playing your first character from 1 to 80 (WoW stopped feeling the slightest bit challenging after TBC launched) you go through all the motions to either PvP for rewards and KNOW absolutely that you'll get the goodies or raid for the same stuff (the stuff PvP gear was based on). Half way through this onslaught of epic treasure, you start getting bored and decide that only an alt can make you feel good about playing the game again. You may be wrong, and you probably are.
You quickly find that you know all the quests, you've met all the characters and seen all the places before. It's fine though right? Wrong. Who wants to do the exact same thing over again knowing full well that you're going to get every single thing you stake your claim on. It quickly bores you and you find yourself quitting for the first time.
Now that you've quit and escaped the clutches of the beast, you think that only an old MMO that required you to spend many months, many sleepless nights just to get one of the hundreds of things you want, can make you happy again. Sadly this is no longer the case. That game that handed you everything you ever wanted when you wanted it warped your entire vision of the standards for rewards in MMOs.
It is a harsh reality and it happened to me and many others. This is why instant gratification bugs me and why it is ruining the RPG element in MMORPGs.
Signed.
People need to concentrate on WoW's effect on gaming in general and MMO mentality in particulair. It's... Not very good.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
It is solo ‘beat the game’ mentality applied to MMO’s. They grew up on Pokemon, but some here grew up on Monkey Island, others on Colossal Cave.
And yes, our perception of what makes a good MMORPG have changed. The grass is always greener on the other side. We wanted quests which were more easy to follow, PvP which was more easy to get into and more soloing content.
We found that the quests have become like something you would design for a ten year old and PvP has become intrusive and for many the sole reason they play. That grouping is what MMO’s are all about, lose the groups and you might as well be playing offline.
As for myself, I realised that less reliance on grouping would cause big issues, but I was fooled by the desire for easier quests and easier access to PvP. Now we have to eat that ‘greener’ grass and moo like the MMO dumb cattle modern MMO’s have turned us into.
The only thing, I feel, we can do at this point is to wait and see if something new comes out that redefines the genre and sets a new standard...
In the context you spoke, comparing a casual with player skill and a hardcore without it, its different, and obviously the casual can compete.
In the context I spoke, I was refering to casuals vs hardcore regarding TIME spent, regardless of player skill.
Thats why I agree with what you said,
except the "truly awful rationale" and the "ridiculous statements" with is the result of your misinterpretation of what I said - without the player skill element (I was talking purelly about the time element)
You say 'warped' and I say "set straight". As they say 'ignorance is bliss'. I fondly remember my first MMORPG where I would spend hours camping one spot, killing the same mob over and over for a bit of xp and loot. However, I would never go back to that type of play because I now realize how pointless that kind of mechanic is. Playing that way turned me into a zombie. I have experienced a better way of playing an I am not going to regress in order to recapture a false sense of nostalgia.
What you call 'instant gratification' I call 'properly paced' gratification.
In the context I spoke, I was refering to casuals vs hardcore regarding TIME spent, regardless of player skill.
Thats why I agree with what you said,
except the "truly awful rationale" and the "ridiculous statements" with is the result of your misinterpretation of what I said - without the player skill element (I was talking purelly about the time element)
You're disparaging casuals for being unwilling to .. not be casuals.
Hence; ridiculous.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
But thats the core element of MMORPGs.
Persistent - Virtual - Worlds where people LIVE IN.
Progression happens over time. Progression segregates people.
Those elements were present in all MMORPGs since the beggining.
Casuals can play in a persistent world, everyone can.
But not expect to COMPETE.
You want power, spend time and effort.
Casuals dont do it.
But thats how you achieve power in persistent worlds.
Hardcores do it.
If hardcores do it, therefore achieving power and casuals dont.
They obviously wont have power.
If they want it, they have to spent more time and effort, stop being casuals.
Its a contradiction for casual players DEMAND the RIGHT to COMPETE with Hardcore players in such persistent worlds!!!
If casuals want to compete with hardcores, they can, just NOT IN A PERSISTENT WORLD = MMORPG.
Go play multiplayer first person shooters online where there is no objective progression element over time.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
Define a "real job" and a "real Life" for me please. Someone? Anyone that uses this bullshit. Come on I dare you.
The problem is people have been trained to expect rewards for no effort. EFFORT DOES NOT EQUAL TIME. Effort equals over coming the risk/challenge to get the reward. It has nothing to do with TIME. Again one more time for you stupid people EFFORT DOES NOT EQUAL TIME.
Every MMO every made is a timesink. PERIOD. Can you get that though your head? In all honesty WoW is a worst timesink theny EQ1 ever was. For one simple fact. All it takes to advance and get rewards in WoW is time.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
WoW requires time to advance, put in the time and you get the reward. That is a true timesink. Time = Reward that is the WoW model and yet people for some reason think that EQ1 had a worst timesink. That is simple not true.
Sooner or Later
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
Totally wrong. I played EQ from Kunark till SoD.
Raided Velious, GoD, CoA, AG/FC, Solteris and everything in SoD. Got many server firsts.
Not once....did I think it was "playing smart" that got me there, not once.
It was time spent in the game that got me there and anyone who spent enough time in the game got to the endgame unless you were a total moron. It was time, being in betas and....time....don't pretend it was anything else.
That's funny, I thought in WoW to get the best rewards you had to actually kill the bosses and defeat the other players, not just spend time around them.
"In all honesty" you sir are an idiot.
Oh, wait, that's right.. "a monkey could bang their head on the keyboard" blah blah blah save the response I've already heard how "easy" everything in WOW is 1,209,187,193 times before, thanks, I get it... I obviously have the brain capacity of a potato and the motor skills of a toothbrush because I think it takes effort and skill to succeed in WOW at raiding/PvP to get the best rewards...
Even the idea of "catch up" is against the idea of a persistent world.
In a persistent world there is no "catch up". The world never stops circling for your amusement.
In a persistent world it continues to change and evolve regardless of your presence.
In a persistent world there is no mechanics to prevent hardcore players from keep progressing, because its against the idea of ever changing ever evolving world.
The idea of preventing hardcore from keep progressing (with level caps or item caps), or even allowing casual to expect to "catch up" does not belong to MMORPGs.
Progression is endless and infinite on MMORPGs.
End game is not reachable either in dinamic worlds.
In MMORPGs there cant be unique true heroes if every one is a maxed leveled hero. In MMORPGs everyone is born equal, and not everyone achieve greatness. Achievers is what made the genre what it is. Achievers are legion. If everyone have instant gratification there is no worthy achievement. One achievement is just worthy because ONLY SOME CAN ACHIEVE IT.
Not everyone can win in MMORPGs.
The mere idea of "end game" goes against the pure idea of ever changing/evolving persistent worlds, if there is one, the other cant exist.
People only discuss "balance" nowadays because the lazy people couldnt keep up and needed developers to limit (invisible hand of the market) the progression/power of hardcore players.
There are so many concepts about MMORPGs.
You seem like someone who started playing with WOW, because you seem to judge by the new concepts: everyone is a hero, everyone can compete, everything is balanced, the progress continues in the next expansion, time and effort shouldnt matter so everyone gets gratified with just 40 minutes of gameplay. And you say you play the genre since 12 years ago, huh...
Yep, people get the wrong impression about WoW's raiding. It's undeniably easy to get onto the epic item ladder and start "getting your purple on" in entry level instances like Naxxramas at 80, so people make the incorrect assumption that all raiding in WoW is of an equal level of difficulty.
Obviously, anyone who plays WoW at that level knows different.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
@Intersting-
If the vast majority of players are not able to become the hero and be powerful and achieve great things because they are not power-gamers...
Then why would they play? To be 2nd-classes citizens?
OH yeah, that's right.. they don't play those games, they play more casual friendly games like WOW, or Free Realms.
And the power-gamers have these whole games devoted just to other people like them!
We call them niche games.
And they can stay there.
But the problem is, they like coming over to the games where everyone else is, so they can get to the top faster and be better then everyone, and beat everyone at everything, and then complain that everyone else sucks and wonder why after 10 years the developers of theses games started listening to the 75% instead of the 25%.
Get some perspective chap. Not saying you are wrong, you are right about certain types of players, but that type is the minority.
This is the reason the MMO genre has gone down hill. This bullshit about having a life and a real job and not wanting to work in a game.
Its all bullshit. Plain and simple. I have a life and a real job too. I play video games in my spare time, its one of my hobbies. So How can I play 20+ hours a week? Easy, I enjoy playing video games so I make time to play video games.
EQ1 you could play 100 hours a week and still not get the best items or advance because the game required you to play smart and to learn.
Totally wrong. I played EQ from Kunark till SoD.
Raided Velious, GoD, CoA, AG/FC, Solteris and everything in SoD. Got many server firsts.
Not once....did I think it was "playing smart" that got me there, not once.
It was time spent in the game that got me there and anyone who spent enough time in the game got to the endgame unless you were a total moron. It was time, being in betas and....time....don't pretend it was anything else.
So in all your raiding you never had to load up the right spells? change spells out for different events? Change up your raid strat based on the boss? Choose the correct AAs? Learn to play your char correct? You did not have to think at all?
So you just pressed your abilities and watched the raid bosses die? WoW I wish I could play your version of EQ. Must of been nice.
Sure the more time, the better you got at your class but time alone did not get you gear or spells. Time was not the main factor in your EQ career. Again Eq1 is an MMO so it is a timesink but it requires alot more thinking then WoW does.
Sooner or Later