Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Recent LucasArts comments, have they really learned nothing from SWG?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
Recent comments from an interview with a LucasArts exec state that the problem with SWG was that it had too many useless classes, and that what it really needed to be successful was fewer, iconic classes.
Okay, I'm now back from losing my lunch.
First of all, NGE has fewer iconic classes, how's that working out fellas?
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
Sometimes I'm really not sure what goes on in the minds of MMO executives.
P.S. Quotes available here:
http://www.mmofringe.com/index.php?option=com_joobb&view=topic&topic=312&Itemid=55#p1134
I"ve edited this for accuracy based on feedback from other posts (and to be a bit more diplomatic). I think the basic message is accurately represented: the problem with SWG according to the interviewer and Mr. Nichols is that SWG had too many classes and that they were not iconic. They both seem to be in agreement on this point, and that is what I'm commenting on.
Comments
Edited this post to be more clear........
Nichols, was telling us what he learned from SWG.
This is the context you seem to have missed.
Well, based on the title, I was all set to post something about giving them the benefit of the doubt, these are different games, etc etc....but yeah.....I know I didn't cancel my SWG account due to their being too many useless classes. My Master Ranger, based on the current class selection, appears to have been one of those useless classes
. For being useless, I sure had a blast playing.
Now, the only ray of hope I see here is that the game has been in development for a bit now and these comments can't indicate any kind of change in the type of game they are making. I have to believe that at some level, there is an understanding that significantly changing a live game is generally a bad idea and that it just wasn't mentioned due to it being common sense. A guy can dream can't he?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Not only have you seemed to miss the point of learning from SWG (which is a complete failure, one of the worst games ive ever played, that seems to happen with every game SoE touches) The fact that games like Kotor and NWN were based off of the DnD system, well since there is already a DDO and not to mention ive never really enjoyed the DnD system, they have to create something different for the game. Have 3 branches to a class gives customization, which is one of the big things in any mmo. If it doesnt have customization, people dont get into their character as much and immersion is everything.
I have all but given up on mmo's based on movies or books, they never seem to live up to the expectations and you know how the story is going to end, I prefer nowadays, mmo's with there own unique story not based from books, movies and films, and sometimes even based on already succesful games (warhammer, warcraft, ddo, ect..) Give me a story I can delve into, and not know whats coming next in the storyline with expansions and updates, I spose this is why I am in high anticipation for Alganon, and Aion.
playing eq2 and two worlds
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
LA is still behind it all :P
whatever bioware does,whatever they wana say, whatever they wana create, LA has a voice in it.
In prespective to good relations bioware will defend the view of LA.
less class more ionic is soooo LA. and guess what, if bioware succeeds then they are right.. well in there view, cource it has less class but more ionic story.
ofcource LA will use this, and even smed will use this (see we were on the right track) its a new game,whit a new core so it should work for bioware. it would never have and never will work for SWG , it has a other core design.
I fairly shure the guy who said that was thinking of a swg were the design was radical diferent. a pre-release in the making swg.
its marketing.. if swg was not a made this way but OUR way then it would have bin a great game.. blablabla
The two games share the same IP thats it heh.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
To be honest, I wish Nichols, had never mentioned the S word (SWG that is). However, since he was going on about lessons learned from it, I'd hope he would mention the bad release, complete revamp(s), and the Trials of ObiWan fiasco. If you're going to publicly comment on lessons learned from SWG, I think you should make sure you mention the big ones--the ones that actually drove most of the players away.
Instead, he recites essentially the same tripe that led to the biggest player exodus in the game's history. Oi vey. My advice? If the guy thinks the biggest problem was too many classes, he needs to review the SWG wiki. Plenty of more important lessons to be learned imo.
Btw I think Bioware's devs are fantasitc; it's the mouthpieces and decision makers in the suits that always seem to park the bus on the railroad tracks. They should let the devs fulfill their vision, keep their mouths shut and just count their money.
Strange, because I vividely recall many people really enjoying all of those useless classes. Heaven forbid a game have to many classes with true variety. Not everyone wants iconic starwarsy predefined classes.
I'm all for giving bioware a chance, but that comment was just idiocy.
never decided on truly playing this game. Story driven mmo's screams pve for me. And this solidifies my unwant to play the game. 8 classes, iconic etc is something i'm getting tired of hearing. I'd perfer to see more classes that are "useless" (even though none were useless in SWG) then 8 iconic ones fit for specific roles such as dps, cc, healer etc.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
/shrug
All this is why I've adopted a wait and see policy with SWTOR after it releases. I've read from past BioWare interviews on PC Gamer regarding gameplay direction, and did not like a number of their decisions.
We'll see.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I actually hope they take some features from SWG, because on paper, they looked extremely good. Now I didn't play the game myself and have heard that most things were a mess with that game, but some of the features would be nice to have in SW KOTOR.
I just hope that they are not happy with voice-overs and a good story. I really want what MMORPGs of today have but with a lot more depth. Not the same old "everything should be easy and handy" kind of attitude games have nowadays.
I don't think SoE has learned that lesson yet actually... They are still making core changes to their older titles...
That being said, if they are talking on a conceptional level, then Bioware may have a point, I prefer the free form character system from the original SWG, but many don't. They simply do not have the desire to play something this isn't the classic EQ model.
That being said, I came originally from AC and the free form school and it is what I prefer, though I doubt I'll ever really see it again.
First, the big issue with classes in SWG is that they took them away after players were already enjoying the game. Had they never been there at launch, there would have been nothing to miss.
Ever since SWG LA has been trying to figure out why the IP didn't appeal to the masses in the same way as WOW did. Its true, the crappy code, constant changes and lots of other factors were part of the reasons for the games ultimate decline.
But they could just be right in their assumptoin that the casual player market wants more iconic, and limited character selections.
And make no mistake, they are after the casual market, not the orginal SWG base. I'm sure they see the timing as right to strip away the WOW base...and are hoping this game hits a home run.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It would be great if someone would make a new MMO that had the features of SWG pre-NGE with the Jump to Lightspeed type of flight sim. Forget the SW IP, create an all new IP. Come on one of you developers must see what a gold mine you could be sitting on.
Absolutely. This game is going to be hounded by cranky SWG vets all the way, that's for sure. Face it guys, Bioware is looking to compete with WoW, and they just might be able to do it. They have many things in their favor that WoW did when it launched. In reality, many people are going to say, "I want to be like Boba Fett! Let me play a Bounty Hunter!" or, "I want to be like Han Solo! Smuggler for me!".
Tom Nichols, executive producer, did NOT call the classes useless. The interviewer, Casey Schreiner, did.
Nichols said: " What we learned from Galaxies, is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic and recognizable."
The whole interview can be seen here.
============================================================
Nobody is useless, he/she can still be used as a bad example.
I agree with the KOTOR devs. They are right, people seem to forget the countless balance and content issues 30 classes involved. The thing is MOST people gravitated towards 5-6 builds in the game. Only a small % of players were the scattered to the other 25 professions and different builds. Dont get me wrong SOE sucks in how things were handled. But everyone needs to get over it, the reason they made the switch to CU and NGE was because the numbers were on the decline and they needed to do something. In the end in only pissed off who they had left playing the game.
I would rather have 8 classes starting off that are refined and balanced than 30 or more incomplete classes. The swg concept was great on paper with how the skills worked and all but it was simply not ready yet. Classes like smuggler were never useful, they couldnt fight as good as a pistoleer and slicing mission terminals or weapons we ok at best. It was a long way to go just to be able to use that special skill. On top of all that most of the classes are still in the game they have just been combined with other classes.
The OP title was indeed misleading.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
That is one of the most ignorant things I've read on this site. No company cares about the personal habits of their customers. They don't care if you're a thousand pound shut in ,or a super model, or someone who bitches about a video game on an internet forum, or someone who, for several years, used to bitch about a video game on an internet forum but decided they were over it now and that everyone else should be too and now whine about that on an internet forum. What they care about is that your payment clears the bank, not about the bodies buried in your basement.
The only thing preventing someone from making a game to the specifications of the folks who are of the 'preCU or nothing!' mindset is that it isn't viewed as being profitable (or at the very least, profitable enough), not some petty 'We don't want those people paying us money!' mentality.
Is it possible that he's saying the current SWG has to many useless classes?
I checked the link provided, but it took me to a forum with people discussing the quote. I couldn't really get any kind of context of what the guy was saying seeing as I can't read the quote in the context that it was originally presented.
As Longsnout pointed out, Bioware's executive producer Tom Nichols didn't say SWG had useless classes. Watch this video.
Yet we have some MMOs that have a ton of classes and at best they feel androgenous and at worst are boring as heck. Whether you have a few or a ton of classes, they have to be the best part of the game. In a RPG style game, the character is central to everything.
The only games I've played that had a ton of classes and did a decent job on them were EverQuest and Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes, sadly, I hated the game play so it didn't matter. Most of the other games out there have around 6 classes, which really isn't that many, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be really enjoyable classes.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal