My belief is when TOR releases we will see the practices that will be comparable to SWG and that will spotlight LEC's side of why a Star Wars MMO has so much trouble. I am not saying SOE is not at fault but there is a measure of blame on the IP holder. You will soon see. I just hope Bioware succeeds in thier end of the deal on this; thier first MMOG.
Predicting a new mmo will have problems is about as dangerous a prediction as guessing a lottery ticket will not be a winner.
As for your prediction of lucas arts showing their ability to make problems, why wait? They have already teamed up with bioware and produced a great game that receives high acclaim from players and reviewers alike. They have already shown that they can produce a winner together and that lucas arts isn't some unstoppable force that ruins games.
If the old republic doesn't do well it is very likely due to biowares lack of experience in this area and not some heavy handed management of the IP by lucas arts. Facts are that lucas arts has teamed up many game developers. Some have produced great games and some have failed. There is nothing to suggest that any star wars mmo is doomed as a result of lucas arts showing their pattern of "practices". If anything that pattern shows that the results are highly dependant upon the game developer and not the IP holder. If other companies can make quality games under the practices of lucas arts, then there is no reason any other company cannot do the same. The only thing that would prevent that is the developers ability to create a great game.
Bioware has a reputation of making great games and they repeated that under the license with lucas arts for KOTOR.
SOE has a reputation for screwing up mmos and they repeated that under the license with lucas arts for SWG.
I think the patterns have already been established.
I don't agree with or overlook lucas arts for their failures and treatment of customers in swg, but I also don't fault them for getting more involved in swg after watching soe screw up repeatedly. It wasn't like swg was a great product until lucas arts decided to step in. Star wars galaxies was in horrible shape from the first moment it released. Soe failed to do their job and the cascade of failures beyond that are a result of their inability to get the job done right in the first place.
Lucasarts hasn't learned anything since 1999. One of the major reasons why LA, once one of the respected names in video games, has been utter crap for 10 years and counting.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
My belief is when TOR releases we will see the practices that will be comparable to SWG and that will spotlight LEC's side of why a Star Wars MMO has so much trouble. I am not saying SOE is not at fault but there is a measure of blame on the IP holder. You will soon see. I just hope Bioware succeeds in thier end of the deal on this; thier first MMOG.
Every bad thing that happened to SWG has happened to every other SOE MMO. From completely changing the game mechanics (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and MxO) to being incredibly hostile towards their customers. SOE's actions as a company sows a pattern of behavior that LEC themselves have not displayed. Don't get me wrong, LEC hasn't developed a worthwhile game in over ten years (every decent or better game they have released in that time was made by an outside company), but they haven't made an outright effort to tell their customers to go screw themselves, through words or actions, while SOE has done both.
Hell, the current big thing that the SWG players are trying to blame LEC for is the asinine idea of adding zombies to the game. They either ignore or try to handwave away the fact that the SOE producer of the game basically begged the folks at LEC to allow SOE to add zombies to the game by his own admission. The Ewok wings and flying Ewoks were straight from an SOE employee's immagination (Swede).
Any number of bad things could happen over the course of TOR's life, but I doubt that most of them will be caused by LEC. The possibility is always there for a licened IP based MMORPG, but if we follow history, we know the major problems of the previous Star Wars IP were the direct result of the employees working at the company developing the game. I have a hell of a lot more faith in, well, any other company than I do SOE, and anyone paying attention would.
Originally posted by Obee Hell, the current big thing that the SWG players are trying to blame LEC for is the asinine idea of adding zombies to the game. They either ignore or try to handwave away the fact that the SOE producer of the game basically begged the folks at LEC to allow SOE to add zombies to the game by his own admission.
in what universe does begging negate all blame for the decision maker?
I'm astonished that LEC didn't say, "No!, you're disgusting don't touch me SECURITY!"
Hell, the current big thing that the SWG players are trying to blame LEC for is the asinine idea of adding zombies to the game. They either ignore or try to handwave away the fact that the SOE producer of the game basically begged the folks at LEC to allow SOE to add zombies to the game by his own admission.
in what universe does begging negate all blame for the decision maker?
I'm astonished that LEC didn't say, "No!, you're disgusting don't touch me SECURITY!"
The one where the current playerbase justify to themselves that they can continue to subscribe to the game, even though it is horribly unfun, because it would really be fun if it wasn't for Lucasarts forcing the pure and innocent SWG dev team into doing all the bad things that ever happened to the game. They are the same group that constantly claim whoever is now in charge of the dev team is wonderful, and the last folks in charge, who were wonderful until they left, were horrible and didn't care, but the new guys do, really, no I'm serious, they are great...
Basically, the main group of people blaming LEC for the asinine zombie idea claim the SOE producer is lying about him being the guy who initiated adding zombies to the game. He is being heroic by taking the blame, because it is in the contract that he has to or something (there are actually posts on the OBoard that say that).
It is the same type of reasoning that tries to lay the blame on LEC for forcing the NGE on SOE, even though everyone involved in the development of the NGE, who have said anything about how it came about, have said otherwise. The fact they they were all either current or former SOE employees means they must be lying because the contract makes them have to for some strange reason.
obee, as much as you try to re-frame the argument, LEC still signed off on the zombies. They deserve blame.
I'm reframing nothing. Zombies are being added to the game, not because LEC forced them to be added, but because the SOE producer wanted them added. Without the SOE producer asking to be allowed to add them, they would not be added to the game.
That in no way means LEC is innocent, but they aren't the primary offender for why SWG is in the dismal state it is currently in. The idea that SWG would be a great game if only LEC would back off is rediculous. SWG is what it is because the folks at SOE wanted to make it into what it is, and the folks at LEC allowed them to do it.
The idea that TOR is going to have a history similar to SWG due to Lucasarts is based on ignoring who came up with the bad ideas that made SWG the horrible unfun product it is today. LEC's main offense with SWG is that they don't say "NO!" often enough. That is the only pattern they are likely to follow with TOR, which puts the ball squarely in BioWare's court.
you said LEC is not to blame, then I respond and said they deserve blame because they allowed it.
Originally posted by Obee That in no way means LEC is innocent...SWG is what it is because the folks at SOE wanted to make it into what it is, and the folks at LEC allowed them to do it.
you said LEC is not to blame, then I respond and said they deserve blame because they allowed it.
Originally posted by Obee
That in no way means LEC is innocent...
SWG is what it is because the folks at SOE wanted to make it into what it is, and the folks at LEC allowed them to do it.
Now you agree with me.
LEC is just as much to blame as SOE.
Lucas arts is to blame for allowing various poor changes to occur.
SOE is to blame for dreaming up said changes, designing them, implementing them and communicating with the player base about them. Lets not forget campaigning for the changes.
I'm not sure I would say just as much to blame, because if you replace soe with any of the other developers that lucas has worked with you do not see this type of repeated failure.
At this point in the game I can imagine the approval process going like this:
SOE: can we put zombies in swg?
Lucas exec 1 (on the phone and glances at soe): yeah yeah, whatever.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Lucas arts is to blame for allowing various poor changes to occur. SOE is to blame for dreaming up said changes, designing them, implementing them and communicating with the player base about them. Lets not forget campaigning for the changes.
I'm not sure I would say just as much to blame, because if you replace soe with any of the other developers that lucas has worked with you do not see this type of repeated failure.
At this point in the game I can imagine the approval process going like this:
SOE: can we put zombies in swg? Lucas exec 1 (on the phone and glances at soe): yeah yeah, whatever.
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
Lucas arts is to blame for allowing various poor changes to occur.
SOE is to blame for dreaming up said changes, designing them, implementing them and communicating with the player base about them. Lets not forget campaigning for the changes.
I'm not sure I would say just as much to blame, because if you replace soe with any of the other developers that lucas has worked with you do not see this type of repeated failure.
At this point in the game I can imagine the approval process going like this:
SOE: can we put zombies in swg?
Lucas exec 1 (on the phone and glances at soe): yeah yeah, whatever.
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
LEC has zero experience with MMORPGs. SOE is considered a veteran company in the genre, and were at one point the industry leader. That was why LEC hired them to make SWG instead of making it themselves. Where LEC deserves any blame, for the trainwreck that is SWG, is because they trust the folks at SOE to make sound decisions while developing the game. If you have zero knowledge about repairing car engines, and you take your car into the repair shop that is considered the top in their field (which SOE was at the time LEC hired them to make SWG), is it your fault if they rip out some core parts of the engine while telling you it will make your car run much better?
When LEC works with a good company, we get good games, such as the Jedi Knight series, the LEGO games, and KotOR. When LEC works with a bad company, we get SWG.
now that I think about it....how was TKM iconic? or Ranger for that matter?
That was originally the whole point. The original idea was that players would play characters like the ones found in the background of the films. They could never be the guy who blew up the Death Star, or the guy who went toe to toe with Darth Vader and walked away with only a hand missing. The would never be the savior of the galaxy. They could be involved in the larger events in a small way, but their story would never be that of the mighty hero.
The Star Wars feel that was, and still is, missing was supposed to come from regular storylines added to the game as time went on. Other content was supposed to be added regularly as well. For some reason that idea was jettisoned in favor of trying to make every possible combination of skill boxed equal in strength, which eventually lead to the combat system being revamped, and eventually the entire game.
For some reason, customers asking for more content and complaining that the game didn't feel like Star Wars was interpreted as the customers wanting a master Ranger to be able to go toe to toe with a master TKM.
It's an indulgence in another world, another time, and another place. It's all well and good if you work up to being someone major in the sense of the imperials or the rebels. Problem is people want it all handed to them on a silver platter. Oh I'm sorry do you want me to bend over and shove the ketchup bottle up my ass to massa massa? Bigger concern is when every idiot wants to play god. So instead of everyone working together and building something they just want to leap out and be the big man. Whelp congrats, go play Darkfail to get a taste as to what happens when idiots run the show.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
now that I think about it....how was TKM iconic? or Ranger for that matter?
That was originally the whole point. The original idea was that players would play characters like the ones found in the background of the films. They could never be the guy who blew up the Death Star, or the guy who went toe to toe with Darth Vader and walked away with only a hand missing. The would never be the savior of the galaxy. They could be involved in the larger events in a small way, but their story would never be that of the mighty hero.
The Star Wars feel that was, and still is, missing was supposed to come from regular storylines added to the game as time went on. Other content was supposed to be added regularly as well. For some reason that idea was jettisoned in favor of trying to make every possible combination of skill boxed equal in strength, which eventually lead to the combat system being revamped, and eventually the entire game.
For some reason, customers asking for more content and complaining that the game didn't feel like Star Wars was interpreted as the customers wanting a master Ranger to be able to go toe to toe with a master TKM.
Ok that made alot of sense thanks, see Master Rangers werent supposed to pwn like in other games but they had lots of skills that were needed, I used to pay my friend to track player jedi for me while I would be hunting them down, and alot fo his other useful tricks. They should of had traps affect players though that bugged me.
Originally posted by Obee Originally posted by PreCU
Originally posted by Daffid011
Lucas arts is to blame for allowing various poor changes to occur. SOE is to blame for dreaming up said changes, designing them, implementing them and communicating with the player base about them. Lets not forget campaigning for the changes.
I'm not sure I would say just as much to blame, because if you replace soe with any of the other developers that lucas has worked with you do not see this type of repeated failure.
At this point in the game I can imagine the approval process going like this:
SOE: can we put zombies in swg? Lucas exec 1 (on the phone and glances at soe): yeah yeah, whatever.
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
LEC has zero experience with MMORPGs. SOE is considered a veteran company in the genre, and were at one point the industry leader. That was why LEC hired them to make SWG instead of making it themselves. Where LEC deserves any blame, for the trainwreck that is SWG, is because they trust the folks at SOE to make sound decisions while developing the game. If you have zero knowledge about repairing car engines, and you take your car into the repair shop that is considered the top in their field (which SOE was at the time LEC hired them to make SWG), is it your fault if they rip out some core parts of the engine while telling you it will make your car run much better? When LEC works with a good company, we get good games, such as the Jedi Knight series, the LEGO games, and KotOR. When LEC works with a bad company, we get SWG.
luckily you need exactly zero experience with mmorpg development to understand how bad their decisions were. It's common sense. It's like not pointing your gun towards the other members of your group while on a duck hunt. You don't need to be a duck hunting expert to know that. Likewise, you don't need to have read the "theory of fun" to think invasive core revamps are how the playerbase wants to spend their time.
On a positive note, I've been seeing lots of P.R. about the new StarWars MMO, and none of it makes any mention of SWG. I think that's a wise move. Let the new game stand or fall on its own merit. Don't drag SWG and all its baggage into the new scenario. If someone is silly enough to mention it, don't forget to mention that people like games that work, and they don't like to have their core game experience revamped multiple times. If you wanna be thorough, don't forget that people also like to actually play the features in an expansion they just paid for.
Comments
Predicting a new mmo will have problems is about as dangerous a prediction as guessing a lottery ticket will not be a winner.
As for your prediction of lucas arts showing their ability to make problems, why wait? They have already teamed up with bioware and produced a great game that receives high acclaim from players and reviewers alike. They have already shown that they can produce a winner together and that lucas arts isn't some unstoppable force that ruins games.
If the old republic doesn't do well it is very likely due to biowares lack of experience in this area and not some heavy handed management of the IP by lucas arts. Facts are that lucas arts has teamed up many game developers. Some have produced great games and some have failed. There is nothing to suggest that any star wars mmo is doomed as a result of lucas arts showing their pattern of "practices". If anything that pattern shows that the results are highly dependant upon the game developer and not the IP holder. If other companies can make quality games under the practices of lucas arts, then there is no reason any other company cannot do the same. The only thing that would prevent that is the developers ability to create a great game.
Bioware has a reputation of making great games and they repeated that under the license with lucas arts for KOTOR.
SOE has a reputation for screwing up mmos and they repeated that under the license with lucas arts for SWG.
I think the patterns have already been established.
I don't agree with or overlook lucas arts for their failures and treatment of customers in swg, but I also don't fault them for getting more involved in swg after watching soe screw up repeatedly. It wasn't like swg was a great product until lucas arts decided to step in. Star wars galaxies was in horrible shape from the first moment it released. Soe failed to do their job and the cascade of failures beyond that are a result of their inability to get the job done right in the first place.
Lucasarts hasn't learned anything since 1999. One of the major reasons why LA, once one of the respected names in video games, has been utter crap for 10 years and counting.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Every bad thing that happened to SWG has happened to every other SOE MMO. From completely changing the game mechanics (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and MxO) to being incredibly hostile towards their customers. SOE's actions as a company sows a pattern of behavior that LEC themselves have not displayed. Don't get me wrong, LEC hasn't developed a worthwhile game in over ten years (every decent or better game they have released in that time was made by an outside company), but they haven't made an outright effort to tell their customers to go screw themselves, through words or actions, while SOE has done both.
Hell, the current big thing that the SWG players are trying to blame LEC for is the asinine idea of adding zombies to the game. They either ignore or try to handwave away the fact that the SOE producer of the game basically begged the folks at LEC to allow SOE to add zombies to the game by his own admission. The Ewok wings and flying Ewoks were straight from an SOE employee's immagination (Swede).
Any number of bad things could happen over the course of TOR's life, but I doubt that most of them will be caused by LEC. The possibility is always there for a licened IP based MMORPG, but if we follow history, we know the major problems of the previous Star Wars IP were the direct result of the employees working at the company developing the game. I have a hell of a lot more faith in, well, any other company than I do SOE, and anyone paying attention would.
in what universe does begging negate all blame for the decision maker?
I'm astonished that LEC didn't say, "No!, you're disgusting don't touch me SECURITY!"
in what universe does begging negate all blame for the decision maker?
I'm astonished that LEC didn't say, "No!, you're disgusting don't touch me SECURITY!"
The one where the current playerbase justify to themselves that they can continue to subscribe to the game, even though it is horribly unfun, because it would really be fun if it wasn't for Lucasarts forcing the pure and innocent SWG dev team into doing all the bad things that ever happened to the game. They are the same group that constantly claim whoever is now in charge of the dev team is wonderful, and the last folks in charge, who were wonderful until they left, were horrible and didn't care, but the new guys do, really, no I'm serious, they are great...
Basically, the main group of people blaming LEC for the asinine zombie idea claim the SOE producer is lying about him being the guy who initiated adding zombies to the game. He is being heroic by taking the blame, because it is in the contract that he has to or something (there are actually posts on the OBoard that say that).
It is the same type of reasoning that tries to lay the blame on LEC for forcing the NGE on SOE, even though everyone involved in the development of the NGE, who have said anything about how it came about, have said otherwise. The fact they they were all either current or former SOE employees means they must be lying because the contract makes them have to for some strange reason.
/steps into the thread and kicks the dead horse...
farewell
obee, as much as you try to re-frame the argument, LEC still signed off on the zombies. They deserve blame.
I'm reframing nothing. Zombies are being added to the game, not because LEC forced them to be added, but because the SOE producer wanted them added. Without the SOE producer asking to be allowed to add them, they would not be added to the game.
That in no way means LEC is innocent, but they aren't the primary offender for why SWG is in the dismal state it is currently in. The idea that SWG would be a great game if only LEC would back off is rediculous. SWG is what it is because the folks at SOE wanted to make it into what it is, and the folks at LEC allowed them to do it.
The idea that TOR is going to have a history similar to SWG due to Lucasarts is based on ignoring who came up with the bad ideas that made SWG the horrible unfun product it is today. LEC's main offense with SWG is that they don't say "NO!" often enough. That is the only pattern they are likely to follow with TOR, which puts the ball squarely in BioWare's court.
you said LEC is not to blame, then I respond and said they deserve blame because they allowed it.
Now you agree with me.
LEC is just as much to blame as SOE.
Now you agree with me.
LEC is just as much to blame as SOE.
Lucas arts is to blame for allowing various poor changes to occur.
SOE is to blame for dreaming up said changes, designing them, implementing them and communicating with the player base about them. Lets not forget campaigning for the changes.
I'm not sure I would say just as much to blame, because if you replace soe with any of the other developers that lucas has worked with you do not see this type of repeated failure.
At this point in the game I can imagine the approval process going like this:
SOE: can we put zombies in swg?
Lucas exec 1 (on the phone and glances at soe): yeah yeah, whatever.
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
now that I think about it....how was TKM iconic? or Ranger for that matter?
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
LEC has zero experience with MMORPGs. SOE is considered a veteran company in the genre, and were at one point the industry leader. That was why LEC hired them to make SWG instead of making it themselves. Where LEC deserves any blame, for the trainwreck that is SWG, is because they trust the folks at SOE to make sound decisions while developing the game. If you have zero knowledge about repairing car engines, and you take your car into the repair shop that is considered the top in their field (which SOE was at the time LEC hired them to make SWG), is it your fault if they rip out some core parts of the engine while telling you it will make your car run much better?
When LEC works with a good company, we get good games, such as the Jedi Knight series, the LEGO games, and KotOR. When LEC works with a bad company, we get SWG.
Now you agree with me.
LEC is just as much to blame as SOE.
I said LEC didn't force SOE to do it. You're having an argument where none exists.
That was originally the whole point. The original idea was that players would play characters like the ones found in the background of the films. They could never be the guy who blew up the Death Star, or the guy who went toe to toe with Darth Vader and walked away with only a hand missing. The would never be the savior of the galaxy. They could be involved in the larger events in a small way, but their story would never be that of the mighty hero.
The Star Wars feel that was, and still is, missing was supposed to come from regular storylines added to the game as time went on. Other content was supposed to be added regularly as well. For some reason that idea was jettisoned in favor of trying to make every possible combination of skill boxed equal in strength, which eventually lead to the combat system being revamped, and eventually the entire game.
For some reason, customers asking for more content and complaining that the game didn't feel like Star Wars was interpreted as the customers wanting a master Ranger to be able to go toe to toe with a master TKM.
It's an indulgence in another world, another time, and another place. It's all well and good if you work up to being someone major in the sense of the imperials or the rebels. Problem is people want it all handed to them on a silver platter. Oh I'm sorry do you want me to bend over and shove the ketchup bottle up my ass to massa massa? Bigger concern is when every idiot wants to play god. So instead of everyone working together and building something they just want to leap out and be the big man. Whelp congrats, go play Darkfail to get a taste as to what happens when idiots run the show.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
That was originally the whole point. The original idea was that players would play characters like the ones found in the background of the films. They could never be the guy who blew up the Death Star, or the guy who went toe to toe with Darth Vader and walked away with only a hand missing. The would never be the savior of the galaxy. They could be involved in the larger events in a small way, but their story would never be that of the mighty hero.
The Star Wars feel that was, and still is, missing was supposed to come from regular storylines added to the game as time went on. Other content was supposed to be added regularly as well. For some reason that idea was jettisoned in favor of trying to make every possible combination of skill boxed equal in strength, which eventually lead to the combat system being revamped, and eventually the entire game.
For some reason, customers asking for more content and complaining that the game didn't feel like Star Wars was interpreted as the customers wanting a master Ranger to be able to go toe to toe with a master TKM.
Ok that made alot of sense thanks, see Master Rangers werent supposed to pwn like in other games but they had lots of skills that were needed, I used to pay my friend to track player jedi for me while I would be hunting them down, and alot fo his other useful tricks. They should of had traps affect players though that bugged me.
LEC doesn't allow changes or additions without approval because they want to prevent these companies from doing stupid things with their license. That means they are at least as much to blame, if not more, for anything stupid that happens that they approve.
LEC has zero experience with MMORPGs. SOE is considered a veteran company in the genre, and were at one point the industry leader. That was why LEC hired them to make SWG instead of making it themselves. Where LEC deserves any blame, for the trainwreck that is SWG, is because they trust the folks at SOE to make sound decisions while developing the game. If you have zero knowledge about repairing car engines, and you take your car into the repair shop that is considered the top in their field (which SOE was at the time LEC hired them to make SWG), is it your fault if they rip out some core parts of the engine while telling you it will make your car run much better?
When LEC works with a good company, we get good games, such as the Jedi Knight series, the LEGO games, and KotOR. When LEC works with a bad company, we get SWG.
luckily you need exactly zero experience with mmorpg development to understand how bad their decisions were. It's common sense. It's like not pointing your gun towards the other members of your group while on a duck hunt. You don't need to be a duck hunting expert to know that. Likewise, you don't need to have read the "theory of fun" to think invasive core revamps are how the playerbase wants to spend their time.
and then there's the flying ewoks and zombies.
On a positive note, I've been seeing lots of P.R. about the new StarWars MMO, and none of it makes any mention of SWG. I think that's a wise move. Let the new game stand or fall on its own merit. Don't drag SWG and all its baggage into the new scenario. If someone is silly enough to mention it, don't forget to mention that people like games that work, and they don't like to have their core game experience revamped multiple times. If you wanna be thorough, don't forget that people also like to actually play the features in an expansion they just paid for.