Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
To be honest, I wish the Bioware guy, Nichols, had never mentioned the S word (SWG that is). However, since he was going on about lessons learned from it, I'd hope he would mention the bad release, complete revamp(s), and the Trials of ObiWan fiasco. If you're going to publicly comment on lessons learned from SWG, I think you should make sure you mention the big ones--the ones that actually drove most of the players away.
Instead, he recites essentially the same tripe that led to the biggest player exodus in the game's history. Oi vey. My advice? If the guy thinks the biggest problem was too many classes, he needs to review the SWG wiki. Plenty of more important lessons to be learned imo.
Btw I think Bioware's devs are fantasitc; it's the mouthpieces and decision makers in the suits that always seem to park the bus on the railroad tracks. They should let the devs fulfill their vision, keep their mouths shut and just count their money.
I fully agree, although I did not watch the video. I am not sure if he was asked or he brought it up himself. It does seem he didn't say it at as it was being represented though (according to other posters). I do agree it's a subject best left alone, they should treat SWG as a long lost cousin who has gone missing IMO. They should also ignore any announcement he's been found as well !
Suits are the reason I won't buy anything before I know exactly how it plays at this point. Far to many disastrous MMO's have been released over the last few years.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Tom Nichols, executive producer, did NOT call the classes useless. The interviewer, Casey Schreiner, did. Nichols said: " What we learned from Galaxies, is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic and recognizable." The whole interview can be seen here.
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
This I can't much blame them for, it was the main difference between SWG and anything else out that followed the EQ model. You have to look in the context they may have been, why aren't people sticking with (old school) SWG? Were they right as to why? Who knows really why most quit early on. It wasn't the easiest of games to start out in for sure, but is that why they had trouble retaining new players? I really don't know at this point (it's been a long time). Most I knew (guildies etc..) quit due to overall performance and lack of meaningful PVP. Yet we all know PVPers make up only so much of a games population. Most of my guildies and friends were gone long before CU or NGE.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
This I can't much blame them for, it was the main difference between SWG and anything else out that followed the EQ model. You have to look in the context they may have been, why aren't people sticking with (old school) SWG? Were they right as to why? Who knows really why most quit early on. It wasn't the easiest of games to start out in for sure, but is that why they had trouble retaining new players? I really don't know at this point (it's been a long time). Most I knew (guildies etc..) quit due to overall performance and lack of meaningful PVP. Yet we all know PVPers make up only so much of a games population. Most of my guildies and friends were gone long before CU or NGE.
I think you're onto something when you talk about overall performance. The game simply had a ton of bugs, and it had incomplete quests that were allegedly "working as intended."
Now, if someone wanted to say the problem was that there were too many broken classes, I might agree. The problem wasn't the number of classes. People seemed to love the diversity and all of the options, especially since you could mix and match skills from all the professions in one character (as much as your skill points allowed).
I think it would be more helpful for LucasArts to say that there were too many things broken in all of the professions. Instead of admitting that they couldn't make things work, they suggest that diversity and customization (as concepts) were a problem. In my view, they weren't.
It seems like producers have a hard time recognizing just how badly this game was management and implemented. Instead they focus on non-issues like people didn't like all the diversity. Really? Why wouldn't they? Did people enjoy mixing and matching skills from multiple professions? Sure they did. Did they like that a lot of the skills they picked up didn't actually work? Of course not.
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input.
So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for.
Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input.
So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for.
Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
Is it possible that he's saying the current SWG has to many useless classes? I checked the link provided, but it took me to a forum with people discussing the quote. I couldn't really get any kind of context of what the guy was saying seeing as I can't read the quote in the context that it was originally presented.
As Longsnout pointed out, Bioware's executive producer Tom Nichols didn't say SWG had useless classes. Watch this video.
The angry vets just goes to show you how much passion people once had for a unique MMO. How many other games can say that? No other game comes close to it, and sadly it looks like none ever will.
I don't hold out hope that SOE and LA will ever make amends. So to hell with them. Like everyone else we move on.
Now that doesn't mean somebody else couldn't make a game with all of those features (wink wink, nudge nudge).
The vets have a right to be angry since their style of MMO was sacrificed on the alter of WoW.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
Ok, my head is a little foggy today from lack of sleep but was that an answer? I have no idea how all of this relates to my question of whether you're talking about certain people or generalizing the entire vet community.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
Is it possible that he's saying the current SWG has to many useless classes? I checked the link provided, but it took me to a forum with people discussing the quote. I couldn't really get any kind of context of what the guy was saying seeing as I can't read the quote in the context that it was originally presented.
As Longsnout pointed out, Bioware's executive producer Tom Nichols didn't say SWG had useless classes. Watch this video.
Ah, ok.
So the OP's information is misleading and untrue.
If you had taken the time to read my response, you could see (if you were willing) that my comments were not misleading. For your convenience, here it is again:
"Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..." Both the interviewer and Mr. Nichols find fault with all of the classes that cannot be described as "iconic" or "heroic," as Nichols says later in the interview.
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned."
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
I think he is talking about ceratin people, a group within a group that recides withing another group. A portion of the angry group inside the SWG vets group of the community. So not all of the SWG vets, certainly not the entire community and even not all of the angry SWG vets.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Saying a group of people cannot ever be pleased with any game at all, ever, and that everyone knows this is misrepresenting and inflammatory. It also draws attention away from the actual topic. Either you recognize this and do it intentionally, or you have extremely poor reality testing.
You're not disagreeing with anything, just misrepresenting a group of people and insulting them. Which I think is the textbook definition of trolling.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
I think he is talking about ceratin people, a group within a group that recides withing another group. A portion of the angry group inside the SWG vets group of the community. So not all of the SWG vets, certainly not the entire community and even not all of the angry SWG vets.
Let's name them unpleasable angry SWG vets.
My appologies, I missed that part. As I said my head is a little foggy today.
What does too many classes or useless classes mean ? To most here, it seems to mean that people didn't like the classes. To a developer, couldn't it mean that they had to spread their development team too thin, had too many people working on classes instead of squashing bugs and adding content ? SWG was made on a very strict and small budget, in beta most questions were answered by, sorry we don't have the money for that. So if from day one they had less classes and had spent their development dollars fixing the engine, bugs and adding content, the whole experience might of been different.
But as we all know, once a game has been released you can not do such sweeping changes, even if the idea MIGHT not of been bad, it was just too late, the game has lost its momentum (very few new players interested), and you piss off the current players.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input. So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for. Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Saying a group of people cannot ever be pleased with any game at all, ever, and that everyone knows this is misrepresenting and inflammatory. It also draws attention away from the actual topic. Either you recognize this and do it intentionally, or you have extremely poor reality testing.
You're not disagreeing with anything, just misrepresenting a group of people and insulting them. Which I think is the textbook definition of trolling.
No more food for you.
yeah unfortunately it appears that I you are not actually reading what is said. I can't help that. I only speak english and if my sentances got any simpler they would only be composed of words of one syllable or if possible less. I have clearly stated and appropriately so my responses in this thread along with others. If there is any trolling going on here its not me doing it sorry
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
I don't really have a problem with your main points, but please, for the love of God, don't keep repeating that same old tired claim that "many subscribers have returned". It just isn't true, unless your definition of "many" is somehow different then mine.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
There were no useless professions, only broken ones but every profession has a role. Also you must not forget that the whole point of the system was to mix skills so it isn't all about playing any one profession.
Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion? Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
Defence Mechanisms: In Freudian psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms or defense mechanisms (see -ce/-se) are psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image. Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected. The purpose of the Ego Defence Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.
Also refer to self-denial and possibly an arguable line of thought of Stockholm Syndrome
======== Back on Topic ===========
Star Wars Vets are also Star Wars Fans just like myself, the point I see that is being pointed out in this thread is that if early signs like this are being spotted on the horizon (as in the game is nowhere yet close to release and no actual REAL (none promo) gameplay recorded) then what happens when we are actually are upon the game (forget 32 professions details blah blah) its the actual thought of the same "types" of mistakes that occured in 2005 being recreated that scares most people. Honestly tho, like most other people I will wait to see what the game is like on launch and go from there with eyes wide open. The only thing that I call positive from the experiences with SOE is I now know what it is like to be shafted by a gaming company and it will not happen again.
The Vet forum for me, is just that a place to warn people and remind others of this sort of practice from a company who has done nothing but try and alter history and deny what they did. The only reason why new gamers today are aware of what has happened is because of people like Arc who question what is being said and informs the rest of us. If this was the other way round I am sure posters like yourself would not be "clear" or "transparent" with the facts and the NGE would be gggrreeat!
I mention the Vet Forums in this way to remind ourselves, us, all of you are now "experienced" online gamers that and shouldnt accept any treatment as I always try and get in a post.. WE ARE CUSTOMERS first, Gamers Second. If there was no reason to complain then there would be nobody here. The horse isnt dead yet.
Promisingly tho these comments from Bioware are being aired publicly now and I see that is positive as it allows them to see the responses given for example ... this thread.
insert iconic 2penneth <<<<
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
Amazes me how almost everyone misses the point that Lucasarts has control of everything Star Wars , from the PEZ dispenser to this SWTOR game. not Bioware not SOE not anyone else. LucasArts is its own worst enemy.
So if the game turns out to be crap or brilliant in the end it was LucasArts decisions and not the Developing company , since LA can scrap the entire project if so they desire,and on the same token have to aprove for every system placed in game, yep even those placed in the original Kotor!
LA failed to scrap the NGE not SOE. So it is LA that needs to learn anything from SWG and lets us hope they did , since they picked a different development team to put together their nex "vision"(tm)
I feel that it was a directed question by the interviewer implying useless classes. Tom Nichols was just trying to answer that question, not imply a reason why SWG failed. He was just stating that Bioware chose to go with more "Iconic" classes. I dont think that decision has anything to do with SWG (atleat not directly) but more so to do with the feel that they wanted the game to have. Bioware has stated that they want the game to have story driven gameplay and its hard to tailor full voice acted game play for a twilek stripper in a bar on tatooine.
Comments
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
To be honest, I wish the Bioware guy, Nichols, had never mentioned the S word (SWG that is). However, since he was going on about lessons learned from it, I'd hope he would mention the bad release, complete revamp(s), and the Trials of ObiWan fiasco. If you're going to publicly comment on lessons learned from SWG, I think you should make sure you mention the big ones--the ones that actually drove most of the players away.
Instead, he recites essentially the same tripe that led to the biggest player exodus in the game's history. Oi vey. My advice? If the guy thinks the biggest problem was too many classes, he needs to review the SWG wiki. Plenty of more important lessons to be learned imo.
Btw I think Bioware's devs are fantasitc; it's the mouthpieces and decision makers in the suits that always seem to park the bus on the railroad tracks. They should let the devs fulfill their vision, keep their mouths shut and just count their money.
I fully agree, although I did not watch the video. I am not sure if he was asked or he brought it up himself. It does seem he didn't say it at as it was being represented though (according to other posters). I do agree it's a subject best left alone, they should treat SWG as a long lost cousin who has gone missing IMO. They should also ignore any announcement he's been found as well !
Suits are the reason I won't buy anything before I know exactly how it plays at this point. Far to many disastrous MMO's have been released over the last few years.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
This I can't much blame them for, it was the main difference between SWG and anything else out that followed the EQ model. You have to look in the context they may have been, why aren't people sticking with (old school) SWG? Were they right as to why? Who knows really why most quit early on. It wasn't the easiest of games to start out in for sure, but is that why they had trouble retaining new players? I really don't know at this point (it's been a long time). Most I knew (guildies etc..) quit due to overall performance and lack of meaningful PVP. Yet we all know PVPers make up only so much of a games population. Most of my guildies and friends were gone long before CU or NGE.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This I can't much blame them for, it was the main difference between SWG and anything else out that followed the EQ model. You have to look in the context they may have been, why aren't people sticking with (old school) SWG? Were they right as to why? Who knows really why most quit early on. It wasn't the easiest of games to start out in for sure, but is that why they had trouble retaining new players? I really don't know at this point (it's been a long time). Most I knew (guildies etc..) quit due to overall performance and lack of meaningful PVP. Yet we all know PVPers make up only so much of a games population. Most of my guildies and friends were gone long before CU or NGE.
I think you're onto something when you talk about overall performance. The game simply had a ton of bugs, and it had incomplete quests that were allegedly "working as intended."
Now, if someone wanted to say the problem was that there were too many broken classes, I might agree. The problem wasn't the number of classes. People seemed to love the diversity and all of the options, especially since you could mix and match skills from all the professions in one character (as much as your skill points allowed).
I think it would be more helpful for LucasArts to say that there were too many things broken in all of the professions. Instead of admitting that they couldn't make things work, they suggest that diversity and customization (as concepts) were a problem. In my view, they weren't.
It seems like producers have a hard time recognizing just how badly this game was management and implemented. Instead they focus on non-issues like people didn't like all the diversity. Really? Why wouldn't they? Did people enjoy mixing and matching skills from multiple professions? Sure they did. Did they like that a lot of the skills they picked up didn't actually work? Of course not.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input.
So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for.
Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
Many vets are happily playing other games like Lotr, EVE, WoW, Ryzom etc. They enjoy them. They enjoy them because they work and they're fun. I'm currently beta testing two games that I enjoy thoroughly. They work better than SWG did, even though they're still in beta, and the devs are respectful and open to player input.
So, as usual, you're misrepresenting SWG veterans. You're also taking the discussion off-course, as usual. You're also suggesting, as usual, that there is something wrong with people who don't like playing broken games, having their progress wiped out and having their money taken for features that are going to be removed from a game right after they're paid for.
Most people do not settle for this kind of poor quality and customer service. There isn't anything wrong with wanting to get what you pay for, and have it in working condition. You've chosen to play a game with an abysmal history, and seem to want to tell everyone they're crazy for not joining you. I believe you are mistaken.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
As Longsnout pointed out, Bioware's executive producer Tom Nichols didn't say SWG had useless classes. Watch this video.
Ah, ok.
So the OP's information is misleading and untrue.
The angry vets just goes to show you how much passion people once had for a unique MMO. How many other games can say that? No other game comes close to it, and sadly it looks like none ever will.
I don't hold out hope that SOE and LA will ever make amends. So to hell with them. Like everyone else we move on.
Now that doesn't mean somebody else couldn't make a game with all of those features (wink wink, nudge nudge).
The vets have a right to be angry since their style of MMO was sacrificed on the alter of WoW.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
Ok, my head is a little foggy today from lack of sleep but was that an answer? I have no idea how all of this relates to my question of whether you're talking about certain people or generalizing the entire vet community.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
As Longsnout pointed out, Bioware's executive producer Tom Nichols didn't say SWG had useless classes. Watch this video.
Ah, ok.
So the OP's information is misleading and untrue.
If you had taken the time to read my response, you could see (if you were willing) that my comments were not misleading. For your convenience, here it is again:
"Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..." Both the interviewer and Mr. Nichols find fault with all of the classes that cannot be described as "iconic" or "heroic," as Nichols says later in the interview.
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned."
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
I think he is talking about ceratin people, a group within a group that recides withing another group. A portion of the angry group inside the SWG vets group of the community. So not all of the SWG vets, certainly not the entire community and even not all of the angry SWG vets.
Let's name them unpleasable angry SWG vets.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Saying a group of people cannot ever be pleased with any game at all, ever, and that everyone knows this is misrepresenting and inflammatory. It also draws attention away from the actual topic. Either you recognize this and do it intentionally, or you have extremely poor reality testing.
You're not disagreeing with anything, just misrepresenting a group of people and insulting them. Which I think is the textbook definition of trolling.
No more food for you.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
I think he is talking about ceratin people, a group within a group that recides withing another group. A portion of the angry group inside the SWG vets group of the community. So not all of the SWG vets, certainly not the entire community and even not all of the angry SWG vets.
Let's name them unpleasable angry SWG vets.
My appologies, I missed that part. As I said my head is a little foggy today.
I better go get another coffee
What does too many classes or useless classes mean ? To most here, it seems to mean that people didn't like the classes. To a developer, couldn't it mean that they had to spread their development team too thin, had too many people working on classes instead of squashing bugs and adding content ? SWG was made on a very strict and small budget, in beta most questions were answered by, sorry we don't have the money for that. So if from day one they had less classes and had spent their development dollars fixing the engine, bugs and adding content, the whole experience might of been different.
But as we all know, once a game has been released you can not do such sweeping changes, even if the idea MIGHT not of been bad, it was just too late, the game has lost its momentum (very few new players interested), and you piss off the current players.
Nope you pretty much proved my point. SOE, LA and now Bioware will be unable to please certain people. You are likely one of them. I have misrepresented nothing in fact I think your reply has pretty much proven that they cannot redeem themselves no matter what in your eyes.
I am also only replying to a person named tilamook by the way who made a similar comment and pretty much mirroring what he said as my personal take on the situation, but good try though and I am indeed on topic 100%. Glad I still make you pounce I guess
You say that these companies "cannot please certain people", which to me implies a portion of the overall group that you are refering to. Then you say you're not misrepresenting SWG vets.
So, which is it then Ummax? Are you speaking about certain people or generalizing the entire community?
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something.
They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP.
Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
"There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this."
Your words. This is how you've misrepresented swg vets. Of course, as usual, you say something and then don't recognize you've actually said it.
In fact, I think once again you're doing nothing here but the textbook definition of trolling someone else's forum to stir up trouble.
really ?
then report me instead of trying to spar with me better yet maybe I should report myself to hasten things for you?
You just get upset when I come because I dont agree with you. Others post the same thing or very similar and it just rolls off your back. You get really upset when I comment in your threads. Im' sorry for that, but I am a member of this community as well. My comments are as valid as yours as are my opinions. They simply are not yours!
You are an "angry vet" are you not? you are upset that they have not learned a lesson are you not? I am sorry, but I disagree with your assesment take it or leave it.
What you want me to do is not post. report it if you feel its trolling otherwise at this point your working hard to derail your own topic with an argument of wether or not you feel my statements are worthy of being present in your thread.
Saying a group of people cannot ever be pleased with any game at all, ever, and that everyone knows this is misrepresenting and inflammatory. It also draws attention away from the actual topic. Either you recognize this and do it intentionally, or you have extremely poor reality testing.
You're not disagreeing with anything, just misrepresenting a group of people and insulting them. Which I think is the textbook definition of trolling.
No more food for you.
yeah unfortunately it appears that I you are not actually reading what is said. I can't help that. I only speak english and if my sentances got any simpler they would only be composed of words of one syllable or if possible less. I have clearly stated and appropriately so my responses in this thread along with others. If there is any trolling going on here its not me doing it sorry
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned. There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable. It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have. The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind. Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.
There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this. There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.
SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.
I don't really have a problem with your main points, but please, for the love of God, don't keep repeating that same old tired claim that "many subscribers have returned". It just isn't true, unless your definition of "many" is somehow different then mine.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
There were no useless professions, only broken ones but every profession has a role. Also you must not forget that the whole point of the system was to mix skills so it isn't all about playing any one profession.
These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.
Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.
I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
Defence Mechanisms: In Freudian psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms or defense mechanisms (see -ce/-se) are psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image. Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected. The purpose of the Ego Defence Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope.
Also refer to self-denial and possibly an arguable line of thought of Stockholm Syndrome
======== Back on Topic ===========
Star Wars Vets are also Star Wars Fans just like myself, the point I see that is being pointed out in this thread is that if early signs like this are being spotted on the horizon (as in the game is nowhere yet close to release and no actual REAL (none promo) gameplay recorded) then what happens when we are actually are upon the game (forget 32 professions details blah blah) its the actual thought of the same "types" of mistakes that occured in 2005 being recreated that scares most people. Honestly tho, like most other people I will wait to see what the game is like on launch and go from there with eyes wide open. The only thing that I call positive from the experiences with SOE is I now know what it is like to be shafted by a gaming company and it will not happen again.
The Vet forum for me, is just that a place to warn people and remind others of this sort of practice from a company who has done nothing but try and alter history and deny what they did. The only reason why new gamers today are aware of what has happened is because of people like Arc who question what is being said and informs the rest of us. If this was the other way round I am sure posters like yourself would not be "clear" or "transparent" with the facts and the NGE would be gggrreeat!
I mention the Vet Forums in this way to remind ourselves, us, all of you are now "experienced" online gamers that and shouldnt accept any treatment as I always try and get in a post.. WE ARE CUSTOMERS first, Gamers Second. If there was no reason to complain then there would be nobody here. The horse isnt dead yet.
Promisingly tho these comments from Bioware are being aired publicly now and I see that is positive as it allows them to see the responses given for example ... this thread.
insert iconic 2penneth <<<<
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
Amazes me how almost everyone misses the point that Lucasarts has control of everything Star Wars , from the PEZ dispenser to this SWTOR game. not Bioware not SOE not anyone else. LucasArts is its own worst enemy.
So if the game turns out to be crap or brilliant in the end it was LucasArts decisions and not the Developing company , since LA can scrap the entire project if so they desire,and on the same token have to aprove for every system placed in game, yep even those placed in the original Kotor!
LA failed to scrap the NGE not SOE. So it is LA that needs to learn anything from SWG and lets us hope they did , since they picked a different development team to put together their nex "vision"(tm)
I feel that it was a directed question by the interviewer implying useless classes. Tom Nichols was just trying to answer that question, not imply a reason why SWG failed. He was just stating that Bioware chose to go with more "Iconic" classes. I dont think that decision has anything to do with SWG (atleat not directly) but more so to do with the feel that they wanted the game to have. Bioware has stated that they want the game to have story driven gameplay and its hard to tailor full voice acted game play for a twilek stripper in a bar on tatooine.