SWTOR is the NGE reborn. Its the SAME thing. The SAME concept as the NGE.
Don't be such a SWG Vet.
There hasn't been enough information released to even come close to your conclusion. Condensed classes do not an NGE make.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think Mr. nichol has done his homework, it is his job, after all. Its a matter from opinion, I myself would argue that SWG had useless classe at launch, maybe not from a sandbox lover's standpoint, but definitely from a business standpoint. Bioware is not trying to make the disgruntled SWG vets dream game, they are making a title to compete with WoW and create enormous amounts of revenue.
I agree. I think they are working hard to build classes each with their own niche in the world. This is a difficult task since the masses want to play jedi and sith but I think they are taking the other classes seriously.
Well OP and many others, apparently it's YOU who didn't learn anything from SWG. The lesson to learn from SWG is that buggy, incomplete, unbalanced, straight-up broken game mechanics don't sell a game. Also, grinding without content to mask the grind is just grinding.
SWG was doomed LONG before the CU or NGE. Long before. I quit when the Holocron grind started.
I think you just restated some of my exact points tbh. I agree that these are in fact important lessons to learn from SWG. One article described the unwanted revamps (NGE in particular) as trying to stop blood flow from a head wound by applying a tourniquet to the victim's neck.
What I'm saying is that if someone from Bioware wants to say, "What we learned from SWG is...," he's not going to do himself any favours by rephrasing John Smedley's rationale for the NGE.
I think the interviewer walked Tom into a minefield by asking him about the "useless classes" in SWG, and I think Tom stepped on one of the biggest mines available when his response sounded like Smed's justification for ruining this game.
LIES! The Classes in Galaxies pre-cu were one of the biggest attention getters to the game. I was never one to play off the story line characters but I think people were enjoying CH's and everone needed an Entertainer for looks and buffs too. Anyway....wait a minute what is he talking about???? There were no classes, you just picked your skills and then went towards a profession based upon it.
Tom Nichols, executive producer, did NOT call the classes useless. The interviewer, Casey Schreiner, did. Nichols said: " What we learned from Galaxies, is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic and recognizable." The whole interview can be seen here.
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
I think Mr. nichol has done his homework, it is his job, after all. Its a matter from opinion, I myself would argue that SWG had useless classe at launch, maybe not from a sandbox lover's standpoint, but definitely from a business standpoint. Bioware is not trying to make the disgruntled SWG vets dream game, they are making a title to compete with WoW and create enormous amounts of revenue.
Tbh, I don't want the alleged disgruntled SWG vets dream game. I'm not even sure what this is exactly. I surely am not looking for what some refer to as a pre-cu resurrection in TOR. I recognize these are completely different MMOs made by completely different companies. Each game seems to have a very different vision too.
SWG was originally a chance to live in the StarWars world. It had a very "world-sim" feel to it, ala Koster's vision. I enjoyed this while it lasted. TOR seems to have a very story-driven KOTOR feel to it. Very different, and I'm looking forward to trying it out someday.
When I talk about doing his homework, I mean that apparently Tom Nichols was unfamiliar with some of the things Smedley said to us shortly after pulling the rug out from under us and giving us refunds for the alleged bait and switch. Smed got rid of most people's "useless classes." One of his lead developers predicted that this would cost him most if not all his current subscribers, and I think this prediction came true.
When questioned about his reasons for this radical move, Smed commented that he had learned that people don't want to play these classes. They want to be heroic, or iconic. Well this was met with outrage by all the people who did in fact want to continue to play these allegedly useless classes.
When Tom Nichols decided to comment on what he had learned from SWG, he essentially rephrased Smed's justification for one of the things that drove subscribers away from his game. In my opinion, this did not suggest that valuable learning had actually taken place.
If Lucasarts and Bioware want to tap into the maket of people who love both StarWars and MMOs, I think their reps should be aware that paraphrasing Smed isn't going to help their cause. Required reading should be: "how did Smed drive StarWars MMO fans nuts." This would include things that he said to us that were utterly outrageous, such as his rationale for the NGE.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
Agreed, almost everyone I know who quit, quit not because there were too many classes, they quit because there were no pvp levels, no mobs in world at the time that meant anything since the large majority of creatures didn't drop crap, the only thing you could do in the game for pve was grind mission terminals sweeping rancor lairs in solo groups. But this is also part of the problem today I have with the Angry Vet crowd (I used to be one until I actually came back a couple years ago - Kiris on Starsider). They look at the game now as though it was the perfect game then, and it wasn't even close. The ONLY thing about it that was really enjoyable was the crafting and the class system.
SWG has decent content by today's standards, 5 Battlegrounds, 5-6 instances for PVE, crafting, still has a lot of sandbox to it (roleplayers love this game, I know because my son is one of them) and it offers the option to fully change your class with out losing your levels.
It has Talent trees, 2 spec + Beast Master for each class, has loot that isn't just player crafted but most armor pieces worth a damn are all crafted. Added in "Spellcrafting ala daoc" style system with Reverse Engineering and Power bits, it has open world pvp (albiet not a lot), and has space sim w/ pvp. PvP now has rewards, ranks and planet control (nothing real major here, npc's take over towns as the guards thats about it). Bounty Hunting system, etc.
The funny thing is, if they were to repackage SWG now, put the old class system in and leave ALL the Post NGE content the way it is now (of course fixing class based quest lines for the new class system) and didn't put SWG on the box and sold it all those "angry swg vets" would be praising the gods, hell, even with the "iconic" class system how it is now SWG is still one of the better games on the market. They just need to fo some polish on the game engine.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
Agreed, almost everyone I know who quit, quit not because there were too many classes, they quit because there were no pvp levels, no mobs in world at the time that meant anything since the large majority of creatures didn't drop crap, the only thing you could do in the game for pve was grind mission terminals sweeping rancor lairs in solo groups. But this is also part of the problem today I have with the Angry Vet crowd (I used to be one until I actually came back a couple years ago - Kiris on Starsider). They look at the game now as though it was the perfect game then, and it wasn't even close. The ONLY thing about it that was really enjoyable was the crafting and the class system.
SWG has decent content by today's standards, 5 Battlegrounds, 5-6 instances for PVE, crafting, still has a lot of sandbox to it (roleplayers love this game, I know because my son is one of them) and it offers the option to fully change your class with out losing your levels.
It has Talent trees, 2 spec + Beast Master for each class, has loot that isn't just player crafted but most armor pieces worth a damn are all crafted. Added in "Spellcrafting ala daoc" style system with Reverse Engineering and Power bits, it has open world pvp (albiet not a lot), and has space sim w/ pvp. PvP now has rewards, ranks and planet control (nothing real major here, npc's take over towns as the guards thats about it). Bounty Hunting system, etc.
The funny thing is, if they were to repackage SWG now, put the old class system in and leave ALL the Post NGE content the way it is now (of course fixing class based quest lines for the new class system) and didn't put SWG on the box and sold it all those "angry swg vets" would be praising the gods, hell, even with the "iconic" class system how it is now SWG is still one of the better games on the market. They just need to fo some polish on the game engine.
I think you might be right, especially if they put the old skill system in as you say. In fact, I think what a large majority of players were asking for was the base game with its skill system, in working condition, with some of the content they have finally added. Didn't people say please fix the bugs and give this game some content? If they did this without wiping out the so-called useless classes, I'm quite sure there would never have even been any "angry vets."
Well, that's all said and done, now I truly hope people just learn from this mistake, hence the thread. Bioware has a chance to learn from someone else's errors. I tend to prefer learning from others' mistakes when possible; it's less painful than learning from my own.
whatever bioware does,whatever they wana say, whatever they wana create, LA has a voice in it.
In prespective to good relations bioware will defend the view of LA.
less class more ionic is soooo LA. and guess what, if bioware succeeds then they are right.. well in there view, cource it has less class but more ionic story.
ofcource LA will use this, and even smed will use this (see we were on the right track) its a new game,whit a new core so it should work for bioware. it would never have and never will work for SWG , it has a other core design.
I fairly shure the guy who said that was thinking of a swg were the design was radical diferent. a pre-release in the making swg. its marketing.. if swg was not a made this way but OUR way then it would have bin a great game.. blablabla
I couldnt agree more with this. It was LA who messed up SWG. It really sickens me to hear people say that it was all SOE doing. TOR will just be the NGE LA always wanted, cookie cutter, bland and linear.
I have played every MMO under the sun and they are either a WOW clone or level based. Nothing to date even compared with SWG and still doesnt. Why? Simply because nobody is doing anything different. Even though SWG was broken it was and still is the best game i have ever played.
LA broke SWG and they will do it to TOR. LA could have stopped the NGE but they didnt! End of.
By the way LA and Bioware we dont want iconic cheesy classes we want to be the norm of the galaxy and be apart of it. We dont all want to be a farm boy from Tattooine! Get it now ?!?!?
....but Tom Nichols doesn't work for BioWare. He an executive producer for LucasArts.
The context given to the discussion over classes by the interviewer isn't such that I can see where the worry is. It's like this. Interviewer says "that'...and then Nichols responds by saying that the Iconic class concept fits what they're trying to do.
I'm a vet. I know how sweet the professions system was. But..let me offer this. That system worked because it inhabited a game world where there was practically NOTHING else to do but "have a day job" and do the day-to-day life thing. Yes, rabidly popular...with RPers and those that like to min/max. But the RPers (me being one of them) had little other choice of activity because SoE totally dropped the ball on content delivery. The requirement placed on the player to find their fun served to wear down on players till, all they did was RP to pass their entire time in-game..or rehash the same content they'd already done a hundred times before with no relief in sight. Sure, ToOW was a start, but then we all know how they shanked that with the fraud issue and the NGE overall.
Min/maxers were constantly changing their concepts and builds to achieve the best character for their tastes to take against ...what? Content? Barely any as it was. PvP? That's not a "content" type that would ever have sustained Star Wars as a MMO. As a multiplayer thing like Jedi Outcast? Sure. MMO? Nope. And, as it was, the very system they were trying to min/max...was broken from launch and had two complete rewamps done to it by the time of the NGE. It never served to meet the needs of the player-base as promised...we just put up with it. We dealt. We shouldn't have to "deal" in regards to entertainment we're paying for. I say this as a smuggler/pistoleer from launch. I know.
So, BioWare is taking a different tack. Ok, so what? They're not engineering a living world simulator like SoE was. They're not trying to create 5000km planets that are then barren of people, entire planets that are basically only good for hunting safaris, or seas of housing and mechanical nature-rape that serve to make the game good for some, but damn ugly for others.
They've taken their own tack. Assuming that because they're focusing down on "iconic classes" means nothing outside our knee-jerk reaction to the phrase. That's not their fault. Place it on SoE..and leave it there. BioWare isn't SoE. They've yet to take the IP, canon, or visual experience and skull-fuck it like SoE has and continues to. In fact, they're the ONLY company out there that's worked as hard as they do to preserve not only the "experience" but to communicate to their player-base that they care as much as they then prove they do.
So really, Arc. You're someone I respect, and your opinion usually mirrors mine. That's why I gotta say, "DUDE! Throttle back.". It's not nearly as bad as the problematic conclusion you and others are postulating.
Is it gonna be anything like SWG? No. Thank god. In a trade-off for actual content that engages me the way BioWare's can, I'll gladly slit the throat of every entertainer class. In a trade for being able to see your actions have effect on the world/events around you...I'll gut-stomp every droid engineer. For the ability to actually FEEL like I'm in the Star Wars universe in a deeper way than "Oh look, star warsy stuff surrounds me...but I feel like I'm in a cardboard-cutout fake of the real EU"...I'll gladly take that honking long profession list and set fire to it.
It's a trade off. On one hand, we had ridiculous malleability and customization. On the other, we're looking at actual content and engaging immersion. I'll take the latter.
And before someone says it....no, it's NOT a shinier version of the NGE. The NGE was more than a restructuring of code. It was a violation. It was play-breaking. It was disenfranchising. It was destructive and it was a lie. It was tantamount to fraud and actually was part of an attempted fraud action regarding the ToOW expansion. In short...at it's core..the part that matters to most gamers...it was nothing like what BioWare has, does do, or can be expected to try to do.
Classes are immaterial in the long run. What they come from, are used in, and how they impact the player's fun...bears more weight than anything.
That said, my sig still stands.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
....but Tom Nichols doesn't work for BioWare. He an executive producer for LucasArts.
The context given to the discussion over classes by the interviewer isn't such that I can see where the worry is. It's like this. Interviewer says "that'...and then Nichols responds by saying that the Iconic class concept fits what they're trying to do. I'm a vet. I know how sweet the professions system was. But..let me offer this. That system worked because it inhabited a game world where there was practically NOTHING else to do but "have a day job" and do the day-to-day life thing. Yes, rabidly popular...with RPers and those that like to min/max. But the RPers (me being one of them) had little other choice of activity because SoE totally dropped the ball on content delivery. The requirement placed on the player to find their fun served to wear down on players till, all they did was RP to pass their entire time in-game..or rehash the same content they'd already done a hundred times before with no relief in sight. Sure, ToOW was a start, but then we all know how they shanked that with the fraud issue and the NGE overall. Min/maxers were constantly changing their concepts and builds to achieve the best character for their tastes to take against ...what? Content? Barely any as it was. PvP? That's not a "content" type that would ever have sustained Star Wars as a MMO. As a multiplayer thing like Jedi Outcast? Sure. MMO? Nope. And, as it was, the very system they were trying to min/max...was broken from launch and had two complete rewamps done to it by the time of the NGE. It never served to meet the needs of the player-base as promised...we just put up with it. We dealt. We shouldn't have to "deal" in regards to entertainment we're paying for. I say this as a smuggler/pistoleer from launch. I know. So, BioWare is taking a different tack. Ok, so what? They're not engineering a living world simulator like SoE was. They're not trying to create 5000km planets that are then barren of people, entire planets that are basically only good for hunting safaris, or seas of housing and mechanical nature-rape that serve to make the game good for some, but damn ugly for others. They've taken their own tack. Assuming that because they're focusing down on "iconic classes" means nothing outside our knee-jerk reaction to the phrase. That's not their fault. Place it on SoE..and leave it there. BioWare isn't SoE. They've yet to take the IP, canon, or visual experience and skull-fuck it like SoE has and continues to. In fact, they're the ONLY company out there that's worked as hard as they do to preserve not only the "experience" but to communicate to their player-base that they care as much as they then prove they do. So really, Arc. You're someone I respect, and your opinion usually mirrors mine. That's why I gotta say, "DUDE! Throttle back.". It's not nearly as bad as the problematic conclusion you and others are postulating. Is it gonna be anything like SWG? No. Thank god. In a trade-off for actual content that engages me the way BioWare's can, I'll gladly slit the throat of every entertainer class. In a trade for being able to see your actions have effect on the world/events around you...I'll gut-stomp every droid engineer. For the ability to actually FEEL like I'm in the Star Wars universe in a deeper way than "Oh look, star warsy stuff surrounds me...but I feel like I'm in a cardboard-cutout fake of the real EU"...I'll gladly take that honking long profession list and set fire to it. It's a trade off. On one hand, we had ridiculous malleability and customization. On the other, we're looking at actual content and engaging immersion. I'll take the latter. And before someone says it....no, it's NOT a shinier version of the NGE. The NGE was more than a restructuring of code. It was a violation. It was play-breaking. It was disenfranchising. It was destructive and it was a lie. It was tantamount to fraud and actually was part of an attempted fraud action regarding the ToOW expansion. In short...at it's core..the part that matters to most gamers...it was nothing like what BioWare has, does do, or can be expected to try to do. Classes are immaterial in the long run. What they come from, are used in, and how they impact the player's fun...bears more weight than anything.
That said, my sig still stands.
Well said, thanks. Also, thanks for pointing out that NIchols is connected with the LucasArts branch of the LA/Bioware partnership. I read another post connecting him to Bioware and simply took that at face-value. I've edited the thread in light of your feedback.
The comments also make more sense coming from a LucasArts guy. They always seemed hooked on this idea that having too many classes was a problem. I still disagree with their assessment.
Like you, I also don't think TOR will be merely a shinier NGE; I think it will be its own game. I also like how you explained what the NGE was: "a violation...play-breaking...disenfranchizing etc."
I think my initial gut reaction to Nichol's comments was due largely to the unfortunate similarity between his comments and those made by Smed. The intensity of that probably lasted for a few minutes ^_^. More objectively, however, I do still hope that people like Tom don't focus on the "too many classes" fantasy. I hope they are aware that the classes were broken and that, as you say, the game was short on content at release. I also hope that they've learned to abandon wholesale, live-game revamps as a strategy for making their games more popular.
Time will tell. I'm optimistic on one hand, but I'm a bit troubled that someone is still hanging onto the "too many" classes theory of why SWG struggled.
Tom Nichols, executive producer, did NOT call the classes useless. The interviewer, Casey Schreiner, did. Nichols said: " What we learned from Galaxies, is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic and recognizable." The whole interview can be seen here.
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
Pretty much. Everyone that left SWG (who i know) left because thier unique builds were totally destroyed in favor of classes that made everyone the same in one way or the other.
I agree with you pretty much in my view on what the interview said. They haven't learned a damn thing. Can't say im surprised though.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Those that feel bioware, La and SOE or whatever have not learned passed lessons from SWG. This is false. Nope. I'm quite sure its true. They still havent made amends. And from what i could tell from watching the interview, they still dont get it. They are just trying to grab another slice of wows pie with a newly done SWG NGE MMO. Woo iconic classes! YAY! Lets get rid of unique builds! *snicker* They learned something unfortunately that a certain type of gamer that is not mainstream didnt' want them to learn. They learned that they designed a game for a small portion of players to enjoy and that what they should have done from the get go was design a game that was 'larger then life" from the get go. Well... if your talkong about the majority of the players that left when NGE hit. Last time i checked that would qualify as your main audience. So i'm sorry what where you trying to say again? Unfortunately for some people (well not sure how many) because they are playing games right now that are using this larger then life formula in some cases (WoW being the biggest example ironically) Sorry, can't stop laughing here. If you think a class based game with linear progression and end game raids as its final endgame is a "larger than life" design ... you dont know sandboxes that well. I mean... it just shows. *shrugs* it appears that if bioware designs a game that is "heroic", larger then life that these same people wont play it. They feel without even seeing the product that they are going to be practicing bad business or something. No one ever said Bioware did bad games. What we said was lucasarts still hadnt learned its lesson. And they havent. They still want to make a mmo with class based bs to compete with wow. "we belive it needs to be iconic!" Yes.. but not in the way they are thinking. Yes, im sure the game will be good and polished. Will it be what ex-swg players wanted or what this genre really needs? No. They feel that bioware has not learned the lesson of past because in their eyes the lesson was a different one. I'm speaking of those who feel that the present bioware has not learned its lesson the original topic of this thread. They undoubtedly seem to have learned it quite well. If they want to draw the larger number of subscribers and cater to star wars fans who are into luke skywalker, bobba fett, hans solo and darth vader they have to design a game where they can play such a roll. When I checked last. Before the NGE the reason people liked the game so much is becuase they could live thier own saga in the star wars universe. Not to be exact replicas of boba fett or han solo. I personally dont want to be Darth Vader number 16478, but if you do, all the power to you. But you aren't the majority that left during the NGE release. Stop acting like you were. From what I read this is not the lesson that the op feels they should have learned. In fact he said it was going to make him throw up in a round about way. This is the person who wont be pleased by these people because they are not designing "SWG2 generic space sim" They are designing something much much different. Therefore it will be impossible to please people like the OP. So, tell me. How is this new star wars game doing to differ from the many class based, linear, bs games that there are today? Seriously. How is it going to be better? Or i'll even one up you on that, how is ot going to be different? Your free to try and explain that one to me. I'm all ears, or eyes in this case. Anrgy vet or no he will not like this game because "waves hand" this is not the game he is looking for. He also seems to still feel they practice bad business after all this time. Hence as a business he cannot be pleased by them unless they do things his way. It wont be happening therefore anyone who thinks and or feels like the op about this is not going to be pleasable by these people because they are already condemned and they are not even at the beta stage yet.
*shrugs* I dont think he said he wasnt going to try it. I think you are just bending his words to come out how you like it. Though I'm not surprised considering the other posts ive read of yours. *nods* Personally i;m going to try it out. Give bioware the chance it deserves because i like bioware. But as for LA learning its lesson? No. Lol.. no.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
What people really fail to realize is that the audience for Star Wars games is a LOT bigger then they even had for SWG.
SWG got the MMO fans that also liked Star Wars.
I doubt SWG got many first time MMO players, everyone I knew had come from UO, EQ, hell a lot of people I knew came from Earth and Beyond because we wanted our sci-fi fix before SWG came out.
But the most popular and successful Star Wars games are the games like the Rogue Squadron series, and much before that the Rebel Assualt series always sold a LOT more boxes then the X-Wing/Tie-Figher series ever did.
The point?
Star Wars games, not simulations, have always been a lot more popular. Hell Lego Star Wars is probably the most popular Star Wars game made recently.
The vast majority of Star Wars fans who play games want to be Jedi and have fun and enjoy a good game rather then a Star Wars simulation.
SWG was a Star Wars simulation. And it was popular with MMO fans because at the time it offered just about everything we MMO lovers enjoyed, AND it was Star Wars!
But the vast majority of Star Wars fans probably couldn't even tell you what Star Wars Galaxies was.
So Lucasarts really did learn a lot from SWG, they learned that people liked Star Wars games a lot more then they liked Star Wars simulations.
Suck for SWG fans, and I agree doing a 180 shift on a live game was retarded, they should have kept SWG the same and just tried again on a new game like they are doing now instead of wrecking what people did love about SWG.
But you want to make a good Star Wars game, you make it a game. You want a developer who can make a really good Star Wars game, and make it a RPG, you talk to Bioware.
You want to make it a MMO? Well, who else but Bioware?
First off SWG was a great MMO when it came out. Lucasarts did nothing wrong to this game. When Sony baught out Station or whatever that company that help make SWG, is when the game when downhill. Lucasarts has a game studio yes but they did not make this game and they are not making TOR....
Bioware has said many times that this game will be nothing like SWG. Lucasarts is really just making sure that SW games are backed with a SW story.
What people really fail to realize is that the audience for Star Wars games is a LOT bigger then they even had for SWG. SWG got the MMO fans that also liked Star Wars.
Star wars galaxies was released totally busted and unfinished. Almost every single system in the game was broken and still in the conceptual design stages. The team didn't even have time to put any real content into the game. What soe delivered in july 2003 was a prototype of a concept that was never completed.
Even still swg broke sales records and attracted all types of people. It is not fair to say swg could not gain a large following among star wars fans, because the game soe delivered was dead on arrival and they made almost every mistake possible to alienate their playerbase.
This project was so mismanaged from day 1 it is surprising there are still players. If you pushed the release back another year so it could get finished, add in some of the better features seen of the last half dozen years I bet this game would have been a blockbuster.
Moldy apples versus grade A oranges. That's what people are comparing when they compare SWG to WoW.
Lucasarts and SOE said, repeatedly, that the reason SWG did so poorly was that it was a sandbox game. Having too many classes, too many options, too much depth etc. were all described as problematic.
The crucial point I think they fail to admit, is that the classes didn't work. There was a large number of serious bugs that made the game too frustrating to enjoy. Also, a number of features hyped before release did not make it into the game. This was disappointing for people. Quests that people began, with their broken classes, were not complete. They simply weren't done. Contacts were missing, or bugs prevented people from progressing. Again, this was frustrating, not fun.
My point to LucasArts, SOE and now Bioware would be that you can't really tell if people wouldn't like a working game like SWG when it was released. People logged into a broken game, with very little direction in terms of what to actually do, and when they started things, they couldn't finish them.
Does that mean that a system like the original skill point concept was bad? Well, really, how can you tell? Give me a Ferrari that doesn't have an engine and ask me how much I enjoy driving it. I'd probably tell you that it looks nice, but I wouldn't find it an enjoyable ride; because it couldn't actually move.
What I don't understand is why LucasArts focuses so much on design concepts instead of the innumerable bugs and issues that made the game so frustrating. Can they not admit that mistakes were made? Can't they just say, "hey we released that game in an unplayable state"?
Then what about telling people certain things would be fixed (smuggler profession for example) over and over again, but then failing to follow through? Can't they admit that saying one thing and doing another makes people frustrated?
No, I don't think Koster's design was the problem.
Someone else has suggested (again) that really the problem is that SWG players are too difficult, too demanding or too dysfunctional to ever be satisfied. Once again, this ignores the very real problems of the serious bugs and issues, followed by unwanted revamps and the alledged bait and switch re. the last expansion. Why not just admit these very real problems? Why expect players to be happy with a broken product or to be appreciative when they are misled? Honestly, I think being thankful for a broken game and being misled would be truly dysfunctional.
Also, many who left SWG have been quite pleased with their experiences in other games. Many of us have enjoyed WoW, Lotr, CoH, Eve, Ryzom to name just a few. Some of these are linear, others are sandbox. What they all have in common is that they work and they are enjoyable. So, once again, trying to blame players for the problems experienced in SWG, is just another red herring; yet another refusal to admit what really went wrong. Really that's what this thread is all about: a failure to acknowledge the real problems that led to SWG's decline, and focusing on spurious issues instead (e.g. too many useless classes that were not heroic or iconic enough).
I can't recall a single instance, precu, where I was just standing around in my hovel thinking " if my character were only more iconic i'ld be enjoying this, oh well, guess i'll unsub" Nope, I might say that precu could have possibly been kind of a niche style of gameplay, given WoW's success.
WoW seems to be what the masses want, however, precu SWG gave me a depth and complexity that I really enjoyed. Inspite of the bugs and general "brokedness" of the game early on it was still successful by any mmo's standards. So I agree with whats been said earlier, had they pushed back realease and launched a polished precu SWG we might be saying "That game is a SWG clone", or "WoW is turning into a hacked up SWG wannabe." or "whats up with this WoW nge i've heard about"
I doubt SWG got many first time MMO players, everyone I knew had come from UO, EQ, hell a lot of people I knew came from Earth and Beyond because we wanted our sci-fi fix before SWG came out.
Oddly enough it was an article back in 01(on SWG) fall issue I believe, it was either in PC gamer or Game informer. That got me interested in MMO gaming altogether. The same issue had a large article on DAOC as well. Since DAOC was out already I went and picked it up, along with a few PC upgrades. Oh man, that game blew me away so I was hooked. Actually picked up UO a few weeks later, never did have much interest in EQ though.
Anyway the very notion of a star wars virtual world got me hooked on this genre, I wonder if I'm the only one, I doubt that very much though, LOL.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I doubt SWG got many first time MMO players, everyone I knew had come from UO, EQ, hell a lot of people I knew came from Earth and Beyond because we wanted our sci-fi fix before SWG came out.
Oddly enough it was an article back in 01(on SWG) fall issue I believe, it was either in PC gamer or Game informer. That got me interested in MMO gaming altogether. The same issue had a large article on DAOC as well. Since DAOC was out already I went and picked it up, along with a few PC upgrades. Oh man, that game blew me away so I was hooked. Actually picked up UO a few weeks later, never did have much interest in EQ though.
Anyway the very notion of a star wars virtual world got me hooked on this genre, I wonder if I'm the only one, I doubt that very much though, LOL.
Most of the folks on my lengthy friend list were introduced to MMO gaming via SWG. The StarWars IP was the big attraction. MMO gaming was a new experience.
Most of these then ended up exploring other games when they saw that SOE ran a bug-ridden show, and didn't seem to communicate clearly or honestly with people about what they were paying for. Most of these, including myself, ended up in games like WoW, Lotr, EVE and CoH. Most of the people that left early on went to WoW and couldn't believe the incredible difference in game quality and customer service. Those were the difference makers right there, and I think that's something LucasArts should openly recognize if they ever want to talk about SWG at all.
What people really fail to realize is that the audience for Star Wars games is a LOT bigger then they even had for SWG. SWG got the MMO fans that also liked Star Wars.
Star wars galaxies was released totally busted and unfinished. Almost every single system in the game was broken and still in the conceptual design stages. The team didn't even have time to put any real content into the game. What soe delivered in july 2003 was a prototype of a concept that was never completed.
Even still swg broke sales records and attracted all types of people. It is not fair to say swg could not gain a large following among star wars fans, because the game soe delivered was dead on arrival and they made almost every mistake possible to alienate their playerbase.
This project was so mismanaged from day 1 it is surprising there are still players. If you pushed the release back another year so it could get finished, add in some of the better features seen of the last half dozen years I bet this game would have been a blockbuster.
You definitely have a point there. There's a reason why SOE/LA sold over a million boxed copies in the first few months. Because it was something PEOPLE WANTED. What they delivered was broken, and if you were not 'die hard' chances are you left.
Being a rabid SW fan myself, I chose to look beyond the brokenness and bugs and enjoy my personal SW adventure. A grand time was had (so grand that I'm still posting about how grand it was, years after N Day).
Honestly, in the end, it's pretty obvious that the NGE was not just dropped because they wanted a more casual player (although they do). They did it to cut costs. Once they got it in their heads that SWG will never = WoW, they wrote it off. They obviously know the maintanence cost of the game, and didn't want to invest further into it (Ewok love hearts anyone?).
That, and pure blind stupidity. After all, how could your paying subscribers possibly be right? They're just the players, they know nothing of business... right? (sarcasm)
Hindsight is 20/20. Knowing what we know about Lucasarts, those who are throwing their lot in with TOR had better pray it does REALLY WELL...REALLY FAST. There're are people wanting their investment back around every corner. I fear if it so much as stubbs it's toe out the gate George Lucas and EA's shareholders are gonna blow the whistle.
First off SWG was a great MMO when it came out. Lucasarts did nothing wrong to this game. When Sony baught out Station or whatever that company that help make SWG, is when the game when downhill. Lucasarts has a game studio yes but they did not make this game and they are not making TOR.... Bioware has said many times that this game will be nothing like SWG. Lucasarts is really just making sure that SW games are backed with a SW story.
SWG wasn't great the concept was great. The best thing about SWG was the freedom, player economy, and crafting. Everything else was just plain unfinished and to a certain extent crap, I played for 3 years as a crafter and a jedi (original i.e. before the jedi revamp and village etc) before I left and thats only because they shafted the crafting system up with the combat upgrade; not to mention SOE cocking up the roll out of the CU to certain servers which meant they had to roll back to a state two weeks before the CU existed. I'm not angry but I do recgonise a company which is just crap at making MMO's. No hating going on but you can't claim a turd is gold and not expect people to slate you (referring to SOE but can be applied to any one.)
The fact is the SOE was left with a game that was just to adventurous for its time and didn't have the vision, undertsanding and ability to finish it, its not their fault it's just life. That trend will continue until they fundamentally change from the ground up nothing they release will be decent in my eyes, some titles might be worth checking out but won't be considered huge successes when you compare them to WoW, but simply out of morals i won't be paying them any more of my cash unless the game is ground breaking and is fantastic to play.
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My belief is when TOR releases we will see the practices that will be comparable to SWG and that will spotlight LEC's side of why a Star Wars MMO has so much trouble. I am not saying SOE is not at fault but there is a measure of blame on the IP holder. You will soon see. I just hope Bioware succeeds in thier end of the deal on this; thier first MMOG.
Comments
Don't be ridiculous.
SWTOR is the NGE reborn. Its the SAME thing. The SAME concept as the NGE.
Don't be ridiculous.
SWTOR is the NGE reborn. Its the SAME thing. The SAME concept as the NGE.
Don't be such a SWG Vet.
There hasn't been enough information released to even come close to your conclusion. Condensed classes do not an NGE make.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I agree. I think they are working hard to build classes each with their own niche in the world. This is a difficult task since the masses want to play jedi and sith but I think they are taking the other classes seriously.
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I think you just restated some of my exact points tbh. I agree that these are in fact important lessons to learn from SWG. One article described the unwanted revamps (NGE in particular) as trying to stop blood flow from a head wound by applying a tourniquet to the victim's neck.
What I'm saying is that if someone from Bioware wants to say, "What we learned from SWG is...," he's not going to do himself any favours by rephrasing John Smedley's rationale for the NGE.
I think the interviewer walked Tom into a minefield by asking him about the "useless classes" in SWG, and I think Tom stepped on one of the biggest mines available when his response sounded like Smed's justification for ruining this game.
Wow, we agree lol, what a trip ^_^.
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
I think Mr. nichol has done his homework, it is his job, after all. Its a matter from opinion, I myself would argue that SWG had useless classe at launch, maybe not from a sandbox lover's standpoint, but definitely from a business standpoint. Bioware is not trying to make the disgruntled SWG vets dream game, they are making a title to compete with WoW and create enormous amounts of revenue.
Tbh, I don't want the alleged disgruntled SWG vets dream game. I'm not even sure what this is exactly. I surely am not looking for what some refer to as a pre-cu resurrection in TOR. I recognize these are completely different MMOs made by completely different companies. Each game seems to have a very different vision too.
SWG was originally a chance to live in the StarWars world. It had a very "world-sim" feel to it, ala Koster's vision. I enjoyed this while it lasted. TOR seems to have a very story-driven KOTOR feel to it. Very different, and I'm looking forward to trying it out someday.
When I talk about doing his homework, I mean that apparently Tom Nichols was unfamiliar with some of the things Smedley said to us shortly after pulling the rug out from under us and giving us refunds for the alleged bait and switch. Smed got rid of most people's "useless classes." One of his lead developers predicted that this would cost him most if not all his current subscribers, and I think this prediction came true.
When questioned about his reasons for this radical move, Smed commented that he had learned that people don't want to play these classes. They want to be heroic, or iconic. Well this was met with outrage by all the people who did in fact want to continue to play these allegedly useless classes.
When Tom Nichols decided to comment on what he had learned from SWG, he essentially rephrased Smed's justification for one of the things that drove subscribers away from his game. In my opinion, this did not suggest that valuable learning had actually taken place.
If Lucasarts and Bioware want to tap into the maket of people who love both StarWars and MMOs, I think their reps should be aware that paraphrasing Smed isn't going to help their cause. Required reading should be: "how did Smed drive StarWars MMO fans nuts." This would include things that he said to us that were utterly outrageous, such as his rationale for the NGE.
Agreed, almost everyone I know who quit, quit not because there were too many classes, they quit because there were no pvp levels, no mobs in world at the time that meant anything since the large majority of creatures didn't drop crap, the only thing you could do in the game for pve was grind mission terminals sweeping rancor lairs in solo groups. But this is also part of the problem today I have with the Angry Vet crowd (I used to be one until I actually came back a couple years ago - Kiris on Starsider). They look at the game now as though it was the perfect game then, and it wasn't even close. The ONLY thing about it that was really enjoyable was the crafting and the class system.
SWG has decent content by today's standards, 5 Battlegrounds, 5-6 instances for PVE, crafting, still has a lot of sandbox to it (roleplayers love this game, I know because my son is one of them) and it offers the option to fully change your class with out losing your levels.
It has Talent trees, 2 spec + Beast Master for each class, has loot that isn't just player crafted but most armor pieces worth a damn are all crafted. Added in "Spellcrafting ala daoc" style system with Reverse Engineering and Power bits, it has open world pvp (albiet not a lot), and has space sim w/ pvp. PvP now has rewards, ranks and planet control (nothing real major here, npc's take over towns as the guards thats about it). Bounty Hunting system, etc.
The funny thing is, if they were to repackage SWG now, put the old class system in and leave ALL the Post NGE content the way it is now (of course fixing class based quest lines for the new class system) and didn't put SWG on the box and sold it all those "angry swg vets" would be praising the gods, hell, even with the "iconic" class system how it is now SWG is still one of the better games on the market. They just need to fo some polish on the game engine.
The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness Bob Marley
Agreed, almost everyone I know who quit, quit not because there were too many classes, they quit because there were no pvp levels, no mobs in world at the time that meant anything since the large majority of creatures didn't drop crap, the only thing you could do in the game for pve was grind mission terminals sweeping rancor lairs in solo groups. But this is also part of the problem today I have with the Angry Vet crowd (I used to be one until I actually came back a couple years ago - Kiris on Starsider). They look at the game now as though it was the perfect game then, and it wasn't even close. The ONLY thing about it that was really enjoyable was the crafting and the class system.
SWG has decent content by today's standards, 5 Battlegrounds, 5-6 instances for PVE, crafting, still has a lot of sandbox to it (roleplayers love this game, I know because my son is one of them) and it offers the option to fully change your class with out losing your levels.
It has Talent trees, 2 spec + Beast Master for each class, has loot that isn't just player crafted but most armor pieces worth a damn are all crafted. Added in "Spellcrafting ala daoc" style system with Reverse Engineering and Power bits, it has open world pvp (albiet not a lot), and has space sim w/ pvp. PvP now has rewards, ranks and planet control (nothing real major here, npc's take over towns as the guards thats about it). Bounty Hunting system, etc.
The funny thing is, if they were to repackage SWG now, put the old class system in and leave ALL the Post NGE content the way it is now (of course fixing class based quest lines for the new class system) and didn't put SWG on the box and sold it all those "angry swg vets" would be praising the gods, hell, even with the "iconic" class system how it is now SWG is still one of the better games on the market. They just need to fo some polish on the game engine.
I think you might be right, especially if they put the old skill system in as you say. In fact, I think what a large majority of players were asking for was the base game with its skill system, in working condition, with some of the content they have finally added. Didn't people say please fix the bugs and give this game some content? If they did this without wiping out the so-called useless classes, I'm quite sure there would never have even been any "angry vets."
Well, that's all said and done, now I truly hope people just learn from this mistake, hence the thread. Bioware has a chance to learn from someone else's errors. I tend to prefer learning from others' mistakes when possible; it's less painful than learning from my own.
I couldnt agree more with this. It was LA who messed up SWG. It really sickens me to hear people say that it was all SOE doing. TOR will just be the NGE LA always wanted, cookie cutter, bland and linear.
I have played every MMO under the sun and they are either a WOW clone or level based. Nothing to date even compared with SWG and still doesnt. Why? Simply because nobody is doing anything different. Even though SWG was broken it was and still is the best game i have ever played.
LA broke SWG and they will do it to TOR. LA could have stopped the NGE but they didnt! End of.
By the way LA and Bioware we dont want iconic cheesy classes we want to be the norm of the galaxy and be apart of it. We dont all want to be a farm boy from Tattooine! Get it now ?!?!?
I hate to point this out....
....but Tom Nichols doesn't work for BioWare. He an executive producer for LucasArts.
The context given to the discussion over classes by the interviewer isn't such that I can see where the worry is. It's like this. Interviewer says "that'...and then Nichols responds by saying that the Iconic class concept fits what they're trying to do.
I'm a vet. I know how sweet the professions system was. But..let me offer this. That system worked because it inhabited a game world where there was practically NOTHING else to do but "have a day job" and do the day-to-day life thing. Yes, rabidly popular...with RPers and those that like to min/max. But the RPers (me being one of them) had little other choice of activity because SoE totally dropped the ball on content delivery. The requirement placed on the player to find their fun served to wear down on players till, all they did was RP to pass their entire time in-game..or rehash the same content they'd already done a hundred times before with no relief in sight. Sure, ToOW was a start, but then we all know how they shanked that with the fraud issue and the NGE overall.
Min/maxers were constantly changing their concepts and builds to achieve the best character for their tastes to take against ...what? Content? Barely any as it was. PvP? That's not a "content" type that would ever have sustained Star Wars as a MMO. As a multiplayer thing like Jedi Outcast? Sure. MMO? Nope. And, as it was, the very system they were trying to min/max...was broken from launch and had two complete rewamps done to it by the time of the NGE. It never served to meet the needs of the player-base as promised...we just put up with it. We dealt. We shouldn't have to "deal" in regards to entertainment we're paying for. I say this as a smuggler/pistoleer from launch. I know.
So, BioWare is taking a different tack. Ok, so what? They're not engineering a living world simulator like SoE was. They're not trying to create 5000km planets that are then barren of people, entire planets that are basically only good for hunting safaris, or seas of housing and mechanical nature-rape that serve to make the game good for some, but damn ugly for others.
They've taken their own tack. Assuming that because they're focusing down on "iconic classes" means nothing outside our knee-jerk reaction to the phrase. That's not their fault. Place it on SoE..and leave it there. BioWare isn't SoE. They've yet to take the IP, canon, or visual experience and skull-fuck it like SoE has and continues to. In fact, they're the ONLY company out there that's worked as hard as they do to preserve not only the "experience" but to communicate to their player-base that they care as much as they then prove they do.
So really, Arc. You're someone I respect, and your opinion usually mirrors mine. That's why I gotta say, "DUDE! Throttle back.". It's not nearly as bad as the problematic conclusion you and others are postulating.
Is it gonna be anything like SWG? No. Thank god. In a trade-off for actual content that engages me the way BioWare's can, I'll gladly slit the throat of every entertainer class. In a trade for being able to see your actions have effect on the world/events around you...I'll gut-stomp every droid engineer. For the ability to actually FEEL like I'm in the Star Wars universe in a deeper way than "Oh look, star warsy stuff surrounds me...but I feel like I'm in a cardboard-cutout fake of the real EU"...I'll gladly take that honking long profession list and set fire to it.
It's a trade off. On one hand, we had ridiculous malleability and customization. On the other, we're looking at actual content and engaging immersion. I'll take the latter.
And before someone says it....no, it's NOT a shinier version of the NGE. The NGE was more than a restructuring of code. It was a violation. It was play-breaking. It was disenfranchising. It was destructive and it was a lie. It was tantamount to fraud and actually was part of an attempted fraud action regarding the ToOW expansion. In short...at it's core..the part that matters to most gamers...it was nothing like what BioWare has, does do, or can be expected to try to do.
Classes are immaterial in the long run. What they come from, are used in, and how they impact the player's fun...bears more weight than anything.
That said, my sig still stands.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
Well said, thanks. Also, thanks for pointing out that NIchols is connected with the LucasArts branch of the LA/Bioware partnership. I read another post connecting him to Bioware and simply took that at face-value. I've edited the thread in light of your feedback.
The comments also make more sense coming from a LucasArts guy. They always seemed hooked on this idea that having too many classes was a problem. I still disagree with their assessment.
Like you, I also don't think TOR will be merely a shinier NGE; I think it will be its own game. I also like how you explained what the NGE was: "a violation...play-breaking...disenfranchizing etc."
I think my initial gut reaction to Nichol's comments was due largely to the unfortunate similarity between his comments and those made by Smed. The intensity of that probably lasted for a few minutes ^_^. More objectively, however, I do still hope that people like Tom don't focus on the "too many classes" fantasy. I hope they are aware that the classes were broken and that, as you say, the game was short on content at release. I also hope that they've learned to abandon wholesale, live-game revamps as a strategy for making their games more popular.
Time will tell. I'm optimistic on one hand, but I'm a bit troubled that someone is still hanging onto the "too many" classes theory of why SWG struggled.
P.S. Always loved your sig.
Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes." I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this: He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."
Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework.
Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history. Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy." Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.
SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes. The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell. Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG. This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.
Pretty much. Everyone that left SWG (who i know) left because thier unique builds were totally destroyed in favor of classes that made everyone the same in one way or the other.
I agree with you pretty much in my view on what the interview said. They haven't learned a damn thing. Can't say im surprised though.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
*holds hands up high in the air* TOUCCCCCHDOWWWWNNNN!!!!!
but yeah... my point exactly.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
What people really fail to realize is that the audience for Star Wars games is a LOT bigger then they even had for SWG.
SWG got the MMO fans that also liked Star Wars.
I doubt SWG got many first time MMO players, everyone I knew had come from UO, EQ, hell a lot of people I knew came from Earth and Beyond because we wanted our sci-fi fix before SWG came out.
But the most popular and successful Star Wars games are the games like the Rogue Squadron series, and much before that the Rebel Assualt series always sold a LOT more boxes then the X-Wing/Tie-Figher series ever did.
The point?
Star Wars games, not simulations, have always been a lot more popular. Hell Lego Star Wars is probably the most popular Star Wars game made recently.
The vast majority of Star Wars fans who play games want to be Jedi and have fun and enjoy a good game rather then a Star Wars simulation.
SWG was a Star Wars simulation. And it was popular with MMO fans because at the time it offered just about everything we MMO lovers enjoyed, AND it was Star Wars!
But the vast majority of Star Wars fans probably couldn't even tell you what Star Wars Galaxies was.
So Lucasarts really did learn a lot from SWG, they learned that people liked Star Wars games a lot more then they liked Star Wars simulations.
Suck for SWG fans, and I agree doing a 180 shift on a live game was retarded, they should have kept SWG the same and just tried again on a new game like they are doing now instead of wrecking what people did love about SWG.
But you want to make a good Star Wars game, you make it a game. You want a developer who can make a really good Star Wars game, and make it a RPG, you talk to Bioware.
You want to make it a MMO? Well, who else but Bioware?
First off SWG was a great MMO when it came out. Lucasarts did nothing wrong to this game. When Sony baught out Station or whatever that company that help make SWG, is when the game when downhill. Lucasarts has a game studio yes but they did not make this game and they are not making TOR....
Bioware has said many times that this game will be nothing like SWG. Lucasarts is really just making sure that SW games are backed with a SW story.
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Star wars galaxies was released totally busted and unfinished. Almost every single system in the game was broken and still in the conceptual design stages. The team didn't even have time to put any real content into the game. What soe delivered in july 2003 was a prototype of a concept that was never completed.
Even still swg broke sales records and attracted all types of people. It is not fair to say swg could not gain a large following among star wars fans, because the game soe delivered was dead on arrival and they made almost every mistake possible to alienate their playerbase.
This project was so mismanaged from day 1 it is surprising there are still players. If you pushed the release back another year so it could get finished, add in some of the better features seen of the last half dozen years I bet this game would have been a blockbuster.
Moldy apples versus grade A oranges. That's what people are comparing when they compare SWG to WoW.
Lucasarts and SOE said, repeatedly, that the reason SWG did so poorly was that it was a sandbox game. Having too many classes, too many options, too much depth etc. were all described as problematic.
The crucial point I think they fail to admit, is that the classes didn't work. There was a large number of serious bugs that made the game too frustrating to enjoy. Also, a number of features hyped before release did not make it into the game. This was disappointing for people. Quests that people began, with their broken classes, were not complete. They simply weren't done. Contacts were missing, or bugs prevented people from progressing. Again, this was frustrating, not fun.
My point to LucasArts, SOE and now Bioware would be that you can't really tell if people wouldn't like a working game like SWG when it was released. People logged into a broken game, with very little direction in terms of what to actually do, and when they started things, they couldn't finish them.
Does that mean that a system like the original skill point concept was bad? Well, really, how can you tell? Give me a Ferrari that doesn't have an engine and ask me how much I enjoy driving it. I'd probably tell you that it looks nice, but I wouldn't find it an enjoyable ride; because it couldn't actually move.
What I don't understand is why LucasArts focuses so much on design concepts instead of the innumerable bugs and issues that made the game so frustrating. Can they not admit that mistakes were made? Can't they just say, "hey we released that game in an unplayable state"?
Then what about telling people certain things would be fixed (smuggler profession for example) over and over again, but then failing to follow through? Can't they admit that saying one thing and doing another makes people frustrated?
No, I don't think Koster's design was the problem.
Someone else has suggested (again) that really the problem is that SWG players are too difficult, too demanding or too dysfunctional to ever be satisfied. Once again, this ignores the very real problems of the serious bugs and issues, followed by unwanted revamps and the alledged bait and switch re. the last expansion. Why not just admit these very real problems? Why expect players to be happy with a broken product or to be appreciative when they are misled? Honestly, I think being thankful for a broken game and being misled would be truly dysfunctional.
Also, many who left SWG have been quite pleased with their experiences in other games. Many of us have enjoyed WoW, Lotr, CoH, Eve, Ryzom to name just a few. Some of these are linear, others are sandbox. What they all have in common is that they work and they are enjoyable. So, once again, trying to blame players for the problems experienced in SWG, is just another red herring; yet another refusal to admit what really went wrong. Really that's what this thread is all about: a failure to acknowledge the real problems that led to SWG's decline, and focusing on spurious issues instead (e.g. too many useless classes that were not heroic or iconic enough).
I can't recall a single instance, precu, where I was just standing around in my hovel thinking " if my character were only more iconic i'ld be enjoying this, oh well, guess i'll unsub" Nope, I might say that precu could have possibly been kind of a niche style of gameplay, given WoW's success.
WoW seems to be what the masses want, however, precu SWG gave me a depth and complexity that I really enjoyed. Inspite of the bugs and general "brokedness" of the game early on it was still successful by any mmo's standards. So I agree with whats been said earlier, had they pushed back realease and launched a polished precu SWG we might be saying "That game is a SWG clone", or "WoW is turning into a hacked up SWG wannabe." or "whats up with this WoW nge i've heard about"
Oddly enough it was an article back in 01(on SWG) fall issue I believe, it was either in PC gamer or Game informer. That got me interested in MMO gaming altogether. The same issue had a large article on DAOC as well. Since DAOC was out already I went and picked it up, along with a few PC upgrades. Oh man, that game blew me away so I was hooked. Actually picked up UO a few weeks later, never did have much interest in EQ though.
Anyway the very notion of a star wars virtual world got me hooked on this genre, I wonder if I'm the only one, I doubt that very much though, LOL.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oddly enough it was an article back in 01(on SWG) fall issue I believe, it was either in PC gamer or Game informer. That got me interested in MMO gaming altogether. The same issue had a large article on DAOC as well. Since DAOC was out already I went and picked it up, along with a few PC upgrades. Oh man, that game blew me away so I was hooked. Actually picked up UO a few weeks later, never did have much interest in EQ though.
Anyway the very notion of a star wars virtual world got me hooked on this genre, I wonder if I'm the only one, I doubt that very much though, LOL.
Most of the folks on my lengthy friend list were introduced to MMO gaming via SWG. The StarWars IP was the big attraction. MMO gaming was a new experience.
Most of these then ended up exploring other games when they saw that SOE ran a bug-ridden show, and didn't seem to communicate clearly or honestly with people about what they were paying for. Most of these, including myself, ended up in games like WoW, Lotr, EVE and CoH. Most of the people that left early on went to WoW and couldn't believe the incredible difference in game quality and customer service. Those were the difference makers right there, and I think that's something LucasArts should openly recognize if they ever want to talk about SWG at all.
lucas arts and soe learned just how far you can push things before the authorities get involved. thats about it.
Star wars galaxies was released totally busted and unfinished. Almost every single system in the game was broken and still in the conceptual design stages. The team didn't even have time to put any real content into the game. What soe delivered in july 2003 was a prototype of a concept that was never completed.
Even still swg broke sales records and attracted all types of people. It is not fair to say swg could not gain a large following among star wars fans, because the game soe delivered was dead on arrival and they made almost every mistake possible to alienate their playerbase.
This project was so mismanaged from day 1 it is surprising there are still players. If you pushed the release back another year so it could get finished, add in some of the better features seen of the last half dozen years I bet this game would have been a blockbuster.
You definitely have a point there. There's a reason why SOE/LA sold over a million boxed copies in the first few months. Because it was something PEOPLE WANTED. What they delivered was broken, and if you were not 'die hard' chances are you left.
Being a rabid SW fan myself, I chose to look beyond the brokenness and bugs and enjoy my personal SW adventure. A grand time was had (so grand that I'm still posting about how grand it was, years after N Day).
Honestly, in the end, it's pretty obvious that the NGE was not just dropped because they wanted a more casual player (although they do). They did it to cut costs. Once they got it in their heads that SWG will never = WoW, they wrote it off. They obviously know the maintanence cost of the game, and didn't want to invest further into it (Ewok love hearts anyone?).
That, and pure blind stupidity. After all, how could your paying subscribers possibly be right? They're just the players, they know nothing of business... right? (sarcasm)
Hindsight is 20/20. Knowing what we know about Lucasarts, those who are throwing their lot in with TOR had better pray it does REALLY WELL...REALLY FAST. There're are people wanting their investment back around every corner. I fear if it so much as stubbs it's toe out the gate George Lucas and EA's shareholders are gonna blow the whistle.
SWG wasn't great the concept was great. The best thing about SWG was the freedom, player economy, and crafting. Everything else was just plain unfinished and to a certain extent crap, I played for 3 years as a crafter and a jedi (original i.e. before the jedi revamp and village etc) before I left and thats only because they shafted the crafting system up with the combat upgrade; not to mention SOE cocking up the roll out of the CU to certain servers which meant they had to roll back to a state two weeks before the CU existed. I'm not angry but I do recgonise a company which is just crap at making MMO's. No hating going on but you can't claim a turd is gold and not expect people to slate you (referring to SOE but can be applied to any one.)
The fact is the SOE was left with a game that was just to adventurous for its time and didn't have the vision, undertsanding and ability to finish it, its not their fault it's just life. That trend will continue until they fundamentally change from the ground up nothing they release will be decent in my eyes, some titles might be worth checking out but won't be considered huge successes when you compare them to WoW, but simply out of morals i won't be paying them any more of my cash unless the game is ground breaking and is fantastic to play.
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My belief is when TOR releases we will see the practices that will be comparable to SWG and that will spotlight LEC's side of why a Star Wars MMO has so much trouble. I am not saying SOE is not at fault but there is a measure of blame on the IP holder. You will soon see. I just hope Bioware succeeds in thier end of the deal on this; thier first MMOG.