DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions? Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD? To each his own I guess. Wait, this was a joke=)
Um you're referring to melee classes who typically couldn't solo. The classes who soloed there was more than 'just a few real skills or abilities'- in fact the necromancer in Everquest has more abilities than WoW (not even including the aa)..then there's the druid, enchanter, Wizard, mage which also weren't confined to a few skills or abilities. But yes classes like Warrior, rogue, and Monk were very confined.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games. Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again. Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye. I like something with a bit slower pace.
Yeah, and that's something that some people don't seem to get. Just because a game has some grouping it doesn't neccesarily mean that it's the type of grouping experience that will satisfy a group oriented player.
I haven't played CoH but I played Guild Wars some and even though you can group with other players for some of the missions it's not a very enjoyable experience for the most part. It's generally just--RUN RUN RUN, KILL KILL KILL, done, the instance ends and hardly a word was exchanged between the members of the group. And in most cases there was hardly any sort of cooperative effort required so it felt more like soloing near other people than like grouping.
At this point in time, for me, the lack of good, friendly grouping is killing this genre more than anything else (for me I said). I may talk about the <Dream Game> from time to time. I may talk about sandboxy stuff. I may talk about improved AI. But putting aside dreams for the future, the thing that is making games RIGHT NOW completely unattractive to me is the lack of good grouping.
It's really depressing for me. I'm not trying to convert anyone because that can't be done. I'm just saying how it is for me.
Amen brother. It's not about trying to make every game the same because you like it that way, it's about trying to find a game that you (we) like. All I want is a few group oriented games to choose from and ill be happy (one good one would be nice). All the other ones I could care less about and they can be as solo friendly as they want. To each his own.
See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice.
You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to.
"But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
I can't think of any games today that have as good group play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions. Yet still the soloers complain. They want raiding taken out of the end game, because it's not fair they can't solo the end game. But if you can solo the raids, then wouldn't they just be more content and not "end game". There would be no end game, just soloing and leveling, till there aren't any more levels to make, then what? An expansion where you solo gods? Then what? An expansion where you solo gods that can kill gods? Then what?
Actually SOME parts of the end-game in WOW can be solo-ed. Reputation grind, crafting epics, BG/WG epics. I don't think a solo end game is very much different from a raid endgame. You grind for epics instead of levels. That is the point.
Originally posted by heerobya See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice. You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to. "But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
+1 Interwebz to you. Well said.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Maybe in the past like games with everquest 1 when it was very difficult to solo. but today when everything is watered down to the max I cant even think of one game where you cant solo. Can any one else?
Pretty much impossible to solo to level cap in FFXI unless you are a beastmaster or something. You can't really solo after about level 10-12 of the starting area.
I forgot about FF11 but that was out about the same time EQ1 was still king. and mmos were harder back then but even in FF11 today you can solo with any class much easier than you could during release.
Solo'ing in FF11 is only recent in the last few months or somesuch. But overall and for the longest of time, FF11 is the god of group-oriented MMO's. None can trump FF11's requirement that you must group to level at all.
Originally posted by Ozarumon Why shouldnt they be given the preference? They work much much harder than those who enjoy soloing.
That is pure myth. Groupers are just as lazy as the next guy.
A dedicated soloer/casual grouper can easily put in more effort/work into playing the game then the average raider/hardcore grouper. If you go by effort alone then there are plenty of soloers more 'deserving' of top gear than most groupers.
..I would dissagree (And I know it probably won't matter to you but i'll put it out there..)
One of the things seperating WoW from final fantasy would be the grouping/soloing while leveling. (I think that anyone would agree with me on that)
And one of the hardest things about FFXI is the fact that you have to wait so long to get a group/put the effort in to organizing one. And to run a good group it does take a certain amount of skill, you can't just mash 5 people into a group and expect to do good, And when it a group you have to not only know your strong points but others also, and how there class works, what buffs to get ect. ect.
I'm not sure what type of games you've play'd but FFXI which is a true groupers game you really do need more skill, and you need to pay attention alot more, heck in FFXI just getting to the place your going to group is a challenge somtimes.
-----------------------------------------------
Whereas in WoW if your going to solo, first 1. decide which quest you wanna do 2. Get online find the easiest/quickest way 3. Get to the location 4. Kill X number of Y items (That are most likly really easy to kill because of the way they work the quest/leveling system)
So i've play'd both games for a long time, and the hardest thing in WoW was finding the best online guide. But this is only my opinion....
I can't think of any games today that have as good solo play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions. Yet still the soloers complain.
DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions? Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD? To each his own I guess. Wait, this was a joke=)
It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games.
Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again.
Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye.
I like something with a bit slower pace.
I think you nailed it Ihmotepp, its the removal of downtime that's really screwed up the social dynamic of MMORPGs.
Early games like DAOC had downtimes between fights, and when you were in a group it was pretty tolerable because you chatted with your mates and I met many good people during those days.
Soloers used to die of boredom sitting there alone, and even when I was soloing I spent a lot of time in guild chat or hell, reading a book (for those long horse rides)
Experience was much faster for the groupers, so everyone was encouraged to group, especially the more traditional classes.
I remember when the Necromancer was introduced to the Alb side in DAOC it was the beginning of the end. I played one and was able to solo 100% to level 50 (probably used a /20 level to boot)
At first, I thought it was liberating compared to the group grind i did for my Infiltrator and Minstrel, but in the end I realize it was a huge mistake and the end of the social grouping dynamic as I knew it.
To those who've never experienced "good" grouping dynamics of the early games (in their heyday) they just won't be able to relate to it if all they have to go by is grouping in today's quest based games.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Could you please point out a single MMO where the solo play is as meaningful or rewarding as grouping and raiding? Do you really expect soloers to be happy as third rate gamers? From your perspective, there is too much soloing in these games. From our perspective, that soloing content is tedious, unrewarding with little challenge (developerss choice, not ours) and no matter how much there is, it's hardly worth doing.
Single player games manage to make solo content not only rewarding, but challenging as well, so why won't MMOs? Oh, that's right, becasue hardcore achievers, both players and developers, are unwilling to let us have even one game to call our own.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think you nailed it Ihmotepp, its the removal of downtime that's really screwed up the social dynamic of MMORPGs. Early games like DAOC had downtimes between fights, and when you were in a group it was pretty tolerable because you chatted with your mates and I met many good people during those days. Soloers used to die of boredom sitting there alone, and even when I was soloing I spent a lot of time in guild chat or hell, reading a book (for those long horse rides)
When a game has to strip the player of any and all option to do anything else to get them to interact, the term for that is 'broken' - I'll leave it to you to decide whether that is in reference to the game mechanics or the players.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I can't think of any games today that have as good solo play as EQ and DAoC before the expansions. Yet still the soloers complain.
DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions? Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD? To each his own I guess. Wait, this was a joke=)
Downtime between each fight? Are you for real? I can solo 2 or 3 with my warrior before I have to rest and regan health. With my necro solo, well I have no downtime at all. EQ you could solo if you were a smart player. That is the key though.
Todays MMOs cater to the stupid lazy gamer and rewards them for being stupid and lazy. It has ruin the MMO genre. Smart gamers should always get better rewards then stupid gamers but the stupid people out number the smart and hence we have the MMO games we have today.
Could you please point out a single MMO where the solo play is as meaningful or rewarding as grouping and raiding? Do you really expect soloers to be happy as third rate gamers? From your perspective, there is too much soloing in these games. From our perspective, that soloing content is tedious, unrewarding with little challenge (developerss choice, not ours) and no matter how much there is, it's hardly worth doing. Single player games manage to make solo content not only rewarding, but challenging as well, so why won't MMOs? Oh, that's right, becasue hardcore achievers, both players and developers, are unwilling to let us have even one game to call our own.
WoW, LoTRO, WAR and I can keep going. they reward solo players, they give them good gear. WoW prompts soloing as you get more exp then in groups.
Solo should be for the times when you cannot find a group or when you do not feel like grouping, it should never be the primary mode of leveling as it is in almost every new MMO on the market.
Forced grouping is not the answer either but it did make the games more fun. EQ was great, soloers could solo, groupers could group and raiders could raid. Do not give me this bullshit that you could not solo in EQ, I know many players that did nothing but solo in EQ and loved it.
The problem is that people think that they should get what the other guy has, why not be happy with what you have earned and not worry about the other people. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE EARNED, DO NOT COMPARE YOURSELF TO OTHER PLAYERS.
Originally posted by heerobya See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice. You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to. "But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
to those saying its our fault we dont wanna group in games your wrong, game companys and mmorpgs do everything in their power today to stop grouping. If your not in an instanced setting and just want to quest with others you are hit hard with a EXP penalty.
I think you nailed it Ihmotepp, its the removal of downtime that's really screwed up the social dynamic of MMORPGs. Early games like DAOC had downtimes between fights, and when you were in a group it was pretty tolerable because you chatted with your mates and I met many good people during those days. Soloers used to die of boredom sitting there alone, and even when I was soloing I spent a lot of time in guild chat or hell, reading a book (for those long horse rides)
When a game has to strip the player of any and all option to do anything else to get them to interact, the term for that is 'broken' - I'll leave it to you to decide whether that is in reference to the game mechanics or the players.
I have a different take on the situation than you do.
I don't feel I"m being "FORCED" to interact, or that the game is broken.
I feel I"m being given an opportunity to interact, withotu feeling pressured that Im' missing out on xp or loot.
You MUST rest, so you CAN chat if you like, without feeling OMG I could be making XP or Lewtz!
IMO, it's a great feature, of coruse the balance is tricky. TO much and it's boring, to little, and the only chat you get is heal, ad, kthxbye.
I thought DAoC had it jsut right. You may want no downtime, not every game is for every person.
to those saying its our fault we dont wanna group in games your wrong, game companys and mmorpgs do everything in their power today to stop grouping. If your not in an instanced setting and just want to quest with others you are hit hard with a EXP penalty.
What game are you playing?
Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
Originally posted by heerobya See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice. You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to. "But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
You so wrong. Try getting a group in WoW without running an instance. Not going to happen because you can get more exp solo then in groups. Same with most new MMOs. Why group when you can get more exp solo.
Even if you want to group you will not be able to find enough people to group with you because most players know that exp is slower in groups.
Originally posted by heerobya See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice. You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to. "But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
I see everything that occurs in a game as a result of the game design.
IF there's not enough grouping going on, then the game is not designed well for grouping, pure and simple.
Never blame the results of your poor design on the players. They can only do what the game allows.
Originally posted by TdogSkal You so wrong. Try getting a group in WoW without running an instance. Not going to happen because you can get more exp solo then in groups. Same with most new MMOs. Why group when you can get more exp solo. Even if you want to group you will not be able to find enough people to group with you because most players know that exp is slower in groups.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
to those saying its our fault we dont wanna group in games your wrong, game companys and mmorpgs do everything in their power today to stop grouping. If your not in an instanced setting and just want to quest with others you are hit hard with a EXP penalty.
What game are you playing?
Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
What game are you playing? WoW rewards you for soloing, LoTRO rewards you for soloing, WAR rewards you for soloing.. Basicly any game that is quest based rewards solo play over group play because quest are soloable and give mass exp and good rewards for finishing the quest.
Most players realize this and do the quest grind vs group grind because it is more rewarding to quest grind then group grind. Please stop trying to spread your bullshit.
I see everything that occurs in a game as a result of the game design. IF there's not enough grouping going on, then the game is not designed well for grouping, pure and simple. Never blame the results of your poor design on the players. They can only do what the game allows.
You are right that it is all about game design.
But these game are designed to make you group.
It is you who choses not to and instead tries to grind out to the top the fastest, because apparently all MMOs are is a race to the top, and you CAN'T enjoy the journey or the experience of sharing the journey with others because the game's aren't designed to let you do that..
Originally posted by TdogSkal You so wrong. Try getting a group in WoW without running an instance. Not going to happen because you can get more exp solo then in groups. Same with most new MMOs. Why group when you can get more exp solo. Even if you want to group you will not be able to find enough people to group with you because most players know that exp is slower in groups.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
Thanks again.
If you take a breath, and step back a moment, you can see that it doesn't have to be a race.
Let's say the game is very group centric.
I will be happy with that game, because the reward equals my effort of grouping, and the challenge of maintaining a group and operating as an efficient group.
But I could play one day a week, and you the solo player, even though the game gives me much more xp than you, could play every day, and race to the cap much, much faster than me.
But still, I would find the game enjoyable, and not care you made it to the cap twice, or 3 times as fast as me.
Maybe you should find fellow gamers who play the same way you do and form a community or "guild" with them in game so you can experience the game together in the way that you want to.
If you rely on random interactions with strangers to satisfy your desire to group in a MMORPG then you sir are about as traditional of a "solo" player as you can get.
Originally posted by TdogSkal You so wrong. Try getting a group in WoW without running an instance. Not going to happen because you can get more exp solo then in groups. Same with most new MMOs. Why group when you can get more exp solo. Even if you want to group you will not be able to find enough people to group with you because most players know that exp is slower in groups.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
Thanks again.
Thanks for not reading the whole post. Even if I want to get a group it is impossiable to find people to group outside of the instants becaus most players know that soloing quest is faster exp then grouping quest.
The problem is not me, I play EQ because I enjoy grouping. I gave up on the new MMOs because its hard to find a group outside of the group content. The proble with the new MMOs, is they have solo content and group content instead of game content.
Sorry EQ has the best community in MMOs and I am playing EQ, so its not my fault grouping is dying its the developers who are listening to the players that cannot be happy with the rewards they earned. These players see things as unfair. Guess what life is not fair, deal with it.
I see everything that occurs in a game as a result of the game design. IF there's not enough grouping going on, then the game is not designed well for grouping, pure and simple. Never blame the results of your poor design on the players. They can only do what the game allows.
You are right that it is all about game design.
But these game are designed to make you group.
It is you who choses not to and instead tries to grind out to the top the fastest, because apparently all MMOs are is a race to the top, and you CAN'T enjoy the journey or the experience of sharing the journey with others because the game's aren't designed to let you do that..
right?
total fail Ihmotepp
They are not designed to MAKE you group, they are designed to ALLOW you to group.
No one is forcing you to play.
That's like saying BAsketball, Football, Soccer are designed to MAKE you group.
You don't have to play any of those, you can go fly a kite.
If you take a breath, and step back a moment, you can see that it doesn't have to be a race. Let's say the game is very group centric. I will be happy with that game, because the reward equals my effort of grouping, and the challenge of maintaining a group and operating as an efficient group. But I could play one day a week, and you the solo player, even though the game gives me much more xp than you, could play every day, and race to the cap much, much faster than me. But still, I would find the game enjoyable, and not care you made it to the cap twice, or 3 times as fast as me. Why is that if your statement is correct?
So MMORPG's are all about comparing yourself to others?
Comments
Um you're referring to melee classes who typically couldn't solo. The classes who soloed there was more than 'just a few real skills or abilities'- in fact the necromancer in Everquest has more abilities than WoW (not even including the aa)..then there's the druid, enchanter, Wizard, mage which also weren't confined to a few skills or abilities. But yes classes like Warrior, rogue, and Monk were very confined.
Yeah, and that's something that some people don't seem to get. Just because a game has some grouping it doesn't neccesarily mean that it's the type of grouping experience that will satisfy a group oriented player.
I haven't played CoH but I played Guild Wars some and even though you can group with other players for some of the missions it's not a very enjoyable experience for the most part. It's generally just--RUN RUN RUN, KILL KILL KILL, done, the instance ends and hardly a word was exchanged between the members of the group. And in most cases there was hardly any sort of cooperative effort required so it felt more like soloing near other people than like grouping.
At this point in time, for me, the lack of good, friendly grouping is killing this genre more than anything else (for me I said). I may talk about the <Dream Game> from time to time. I may talk about sandboxy stuff. I may talk about improved AI. But putting aside dreams for the future, the thing that is making games RIGHT NOW completely unattractive to me is the lack of good grouping.
It's really depressing for me. I'm not trying to convert anyone because that can't be done. I'm just saying how it is for me.
Amen brother. It's not about trying to make every game the same because you like it that way, it's about trying to find a game that you (we) like. All I want is a few group oriented games to choose from and ill be happy (one good one would be nice). All the other ones I could care less about and they can be as solo friendly as they want. To each his own.
See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice.
You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to.
"But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
Actually SOME parts of the end-game in WOW can be solo-ed. Reputation grind, crafting epics, BG/WG epics. I don't think a solo end game is very much different from a raid endgame. You grind for epics instead of levels. That is the point.
+1 Interwebz to you. Well said.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Pretty much impossible to solo to level cap in FFXI unless you are a beastmaster or something. You can't really solo after about level 10-12 of the starting area.
I forgot about FF11 but that was out about the same time EQ1 was still king. and mmos were harder back then but even in FF11 today you can solo with any class much easier than you could during release.
Solo'ing in FF11 is only recent in the last few months or somesuch. But overall and for the longest of time, FF11 is the god of group-oriented MMO's. None can trump FF11's requirement that you must group to level at all.
That is pure myth. Groupers are just as lazy as the next guy.
A dedicated soloer/casual grouper can easily put in more effort/work into playing the game then the average raider/hardcore grouper. If you go by effort alone then there are plenty of soloers more 'deserving' of top gear than most groupers.
..I would dissagree (And I know it probably won't matter to you but i'll put it out there..)
One of the things seperating WoW from final fantasy would be the grouping/soloing while leveling. (I think that anyone would agree with me on that)
And one of the hardest things about FFXI is the fact that you have to wait so long to get a group/put the effort in to organizing one. And to run a good group it does take a certain amount of skill, you can't just mash 5 people into a group and expect to do good, And when it a group you have to not only know your strong points but others also, and how there class works, what buffs to get ect. ect.
I'm not sure what type of games you've play'd but FFXI which is a true groupers game you really do need more skill, and you need to pay attention alot more, heck in FFXI just getting to the place your going to group is a challenge somtimes.
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Whereas in WoW if your going to solo, first 1. decide which quest you wanna do 2. Get online find the easiest/quickest way 3. Get to the location 4. Kill X number of Y items (That are most likly really easy to kill because of the way they work the quest/leveling system)
So i've play'd both games for a long time, and the hardest thing in WoW was finding the best online guide. But this is only my opinion....
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DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions? Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD? To each his own I guess. Wait, this was a joke=)
It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games.
Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again.
Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye.
I like something with a bit slower pace.
I think you nailed it Ihmotepp, its the removal of downtime that's really screwed up the social dynamic of MMORPGs.
Early games like DAOC had downtimes between fights, and when you were in a group it was pretty tolerable because you chatted with your mates and I met many good people during those days.
Soloers used to die of boredom sitting there alone, and even when I was soloing I spent a lot of time in guild chat or hell, reading a book (for those long horse rides)
Experience was much faster for the groupers, so everyone was encouraged to group, especially the more traditional classes.
I remember when the Necromancer was introduced to the Alb side in DAOC it was the beginning of the end. I played one and was able to solo 100% to level 50 (probably used a /20 level to boot)
At first, I thought it was liberating compared to the group grind i did for my Infiltrator and Minstrel, but in the end I realize it was a huge mistake and the end of the social grouping dynamic as I knew it.
To those who've never experienced "good" grouping dynamics of the early games (in their heyday) they just won't be able to relate to it if all they have to go by is grouping in today's quest based games.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Could you please point out a single MMO where the solo play is as meaningful or rewarding as grouping and raiding? Do you really expect soloers to be happy as third rate gamers? From your perspective, there is too much soloing in these games. From our perspective, that soloing content is tedious, unrewarding with little challenge (developerss choice, not ours) and no matter how much there is, it's hardly worth doing.
Single player games manage to make solo content not only rewarding, but challenging as well, so why won't MMOs? Oh, that's right, becasue hardcore achievers, both players and developers, are unwilling to let us have even one game to call our own.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
When a game has to strip the player of any and all option to do anything else to get them to interact, the term for that is 'broken' - I'll leave it to you to decide whether that is in reference to the game mechanics or the players.
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DId you just say EQ and DAOC had GOOD soloing before their expansions? Long, monotonous autoattacking(there were very few real skills or abilities then), with a few minutes of down time between each fight, with enough quests to count on one hand and no rewards, is GOOD? To each his own I guess. Wait, this was a joke=)
Downtime between each fight? Are you for real? I can solo 2 or 3 with my warrior before I have to rest and regan health. With my necro solo, well I have no downtime at all. EQ you could solo if you were a smart player. That is the key though.
Todays MMOs cater to the stupid lazy gamer and rewards them for being stupid and lazy. It has ruin the MMO genre. Smart gamers should always get better rewards then stupid gamers but the stupid people out number the smart and hence we have the MMO games we have today.
Sooner or Later
WoW, LoTRO, WAR and I can keep going. they reward solo players, they give them good gear. WoW prompts soloing as you get more exp then in groups.
Solo should be for the times when you cannot find a group or when you do not feel like grouping, it should never be the primary mode of leveling as it is in almost every new MMO on the market.
Forced grouping is not the answer either but it did make the games more fun. EQ was great, soloers could solo, groupers could group and raiders could raid. Do not give me this bullshit that you could not solo in EQ, I know many players that did nothing but solo in EQ and loved it.
The problem is that people think that they should get what the other guy has, why not be happy with what you have earned and not worry about the other people. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE EARNED, DO NOT COMPARE YOURSELF TO OTHER PLAYERS.
Sooner or Later
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
to those saying its our fault we dont wanna group in games your wrong, game companys and mmorpgs do everything in their power today to stop grouping. If your not in an instanced setting and just want to quest with others you are hit hard with a EXP penalty.
When a game has to strip the player of any and all option to do anything else to get them to interact, the term for that is 'broken' - I'll leave it to you to decide whether that is in reference to the game mechanics or the players.
I have a different take on the situation than you do.
I don't feel I"m being "FORCED" to interact, or that the game is broken.
I feel I"m being given an opportunity to interact, withotu feeling pressured that Im' missing out on xp or loot.
You MUST rest, so you CAN chat if you like, without feeling OMG I could be making XP or Lewtz!
IMO, it's a great feature, of coruse the balance is tricky. TO much and it's boring, to little, and the only chat you get is heal, ad, kthxbye.
I thought DAoC had it jsut right. You may want no downtime, not every game is for every person.
What game are you playing?
Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
You so wrong. Try getting a group in WoW without running an instance. Not going to happen because you can get more exp solo then in groups. Same with most new MMOs. Why group when you can get more exp solo.
Even if you want to group you will not be able to find enough people to group with you because most players know that exp is slower in groups.
Sooner or Later
self promoted /end thread
You guys are all wrong. The only thing preventing you guys from 100% group MMORPG's is yourselves and your competitive attitudes and sense of entitlement and priveledge.
I see everything that occurs in a game as a result of the game design.
IF there's not enough grouping going on, then the game is not designed well for grouping, pure and simple.
Never blame the results of your poor design on the players. They can only do what the game allows.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
Thanks again.
What game are you playing?
Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
What game are you playing? WoW rewards you for soloing, LoTRO rewards you for soloing, WAR rewards you for soloing.. Basicly any game that is quest based rewards solo play over group play because quest are soloable and give mass exp and good rewards for finishing the quest.
Most players realize this and do the quest grind vs group grind because it is more rewarding to quest grind then group grind. Please stop trying to spread your bullshit.
Sooner or Later
You are right that it is all about game design.
But these game are designed to make you group.
It is you who choses not to and instead tries to grind out to the top the fastest, because apparently all MMOs are is a race to the top, and you CAN'T enjoy the journey or the experience of sharing the journey with others because the game's aren't designed to let you do that..
right?
total fail Ihmotepp
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
Thanks again.
If you take a breath, and step back a moment, you can see that it doesn't have to be a race.
Let's say the game is very group centric.
I will be happy with that game, because the reward equals my effort of grouping, and the challenge of maintaining a group and operating as an efficient group.
But I could play one day a week, and you the solo player, even though the game gives me much more xp than you, could play every day, and race to the cap much, much faster than me.
But still, I would find the game enjoyable, and not care you made it to the cap twice, or 3 times as fast as me.
Why is that if your statement is correct?
Here's a radical thought.
Maybe you should find fellow gamers who play the same way you do and form a community or "guild" with them in game so you can experience the game together in the way that you want to.
If you rely on random interactions with strangers to satisfy your desire to group in a MMORPG then you sir are about as traditional of a "solo" player as you can get.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's all about min/maxing powerleveling and getting there the fastest. It's a race is it?
THAT is why community and grouping is "dying" in MMORPGs, people like you.
I'd rather do every single quest grouped up with a friend or even perfect strangers just for the social interaction.
And here's a HINT for you-
Two people can kill stuff a LOT faster, so though you may get less XP per kill, you get more XP overall becuase you can kill more with a partner with less downtime.
Thanks again.
Thanks for not reading the whole post. Even if I want to get a group it is impossiable to find people to group outside of the instants becaus most players know that soloing quest is faster exp then grouping quest.
The problem is not me, I play EQ because I enjoy grouping. I gave up on the new MMOs because its hard to find a group outside of the group content. The proble with the new MMOs, is they have solo content and group content instead of game content.
Sorry EQ has the best community in MMOs and I am playing EQ, so its not my fault grouping is dying its the developers who are listening to the players that cannot be happy with the rewards they earned. These players see things as unfair. Guess what life is not fair, deal with it.
Sooner or Later
You are right that it is all about game design.
But these game are designed to make you group.
It is you who choses not to and instead tries to grind out to the top the fastest, because apparently all MMOs are is a race to the top, and you CAN'T enjoy the journey or the experience of sharing the journey with others because the game's aren't designed to let you do that..
right?
total fail Ihmotepp
They are not designed to MAKE you group, they are designed to ALLOW you to group.
No one is forcing you to play.
That's like saying BAsketball, Football, Soccer are designed to MAKE you group.
You don't have to play any of those, you can go fly a kite.
So MMORPG's are all about comparing yourself to others?
I finally understand you Ihmotepp.