You want a group only game so solo players can't/don't play it.
Solo player don't care at all if you group up in the same game they play.
In fact, they'll likely group with you if they need to.
Of the two, one seems a lot more financially marketable and thusly more likely to find a publisher and sufficient funding to make a quality, polished content with both a breadth of content and depth of features.
See, what WoW did that was pure genius was give you solo quest chains that led into group dungeon content. The solo player had reason to seek out a group!
You can't say the same is true anymore, but come on it's been 5 years I applaud them for speeding up 1-60 content becuase there simply aren't enough new account anymore to make the early level grouping that was once SO important as appealing anymore.
I think it's a case of "you missed the boat" because I spent a good 75% of my time in WoW 1-60 and then 60-70 and 70-80 in groups.
It's the late adapaters that are behind the curve that complain and then we see things made easier for the solo player.
You guys are soo off with the sports analogies it's not even funny. Playing hockey alone? Playing hockey alone is like going into an group instanced-dungeon by yourself. Fail.
Skating and practicing your shooting alone is like learning how to play your toon through solo play so that when you hit the group stuff you know what the F you are doing. No one just jumpes into the ring with Ali, you gotta train first son.
Sorry but you cannot practice shooting alone with any degree of success. You need a goalie to make sure you are training corrently. Second you can practice your skating alone but with others it is better because they can force you to do better and give you pointers.
Again you proved my point... Why is there a group instanced dungeon? Why cannot it be just a dungeon with it up to the players to group or solo it depending on play style.
I play a group centered game because I like grouping... I refused to play a solo centered game because I am a group player.
Because that's just a solo game.
Why would I bother to group in that game? There's no point if I can solo it, because thaty's much easier than getting a group together.
You want a group only game so solo players can't/don't play it. Solo player don't care at all if you group up in the same game they play. In fact, they'll likely group with you if they need to.
Of the two, one seems a lot more financially marketable and thusly more likely to find a publisher and sufficient funding to make a quality, polished content with both a breadth of content and depth of features. See, what WoW did that was pure genius was give you solo quest chains that led into group dungeon content. The solo player had reason to seek out a group! You can't say the same is true anymore, but come on it's been 5 years I applaud them for speeding up 1-60 content becuase there simply aren't enough new account anymore to make the early level grouping that was once SO important as appealing anymore. I think it's a case of "you missed the boat" because I spent a good 75% of my time in WoW 1-60 and then 60-70 and 70-80 in groups. It's the late adapaters that are behind the curve that complain and then we see things made easier for the solo player.
It's all about perspective.
So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports?
Really?
Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
Of course solo players don't care if I group iun their solo game.
Why would they? THey'd be getting twice the reward as me, because I'm taking time to group and they are not, duh.
Jesus fucking Christ guys, the point of grouping in a "solo" game is so that you can play with friends!
OH MY FUCKING GOD freinds? what are those?
Or hey, here's a thought, if you are in a guild and spend the entire time you are playing talking with people in your guild even if you are running around killing stuff / questing solo...
Originally posted by Ihmotepp So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports? Really? Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Where did this "Grouping is harder" business come from? Groups allow you to take on "harder" content at an earlier point than a soloer, it certainly isn't "harder" than soloing. These games require the ability of a sloth to play, lets face it. Only the very worst people at their characters stand out as bad apples. These games are meant for the masses, and that means making them "easy" to play. Chess is hard, WoW/Eve/DAOC/WAR/AOC/FFXI/<Insert MMO name here> is easy. If anything, grouping is *easier* than soloing, as you have many people with many abilities that can help vs 1 person with 1 set of skills. And of course, most groups kill the same stuff as soloers, only far faster (more xp/skill gains that way, the "optimal path".)
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Jesus fucking Christ guys, the point of grouping in a "solo" game is so that you can play with friends! OH MY FUCKING GOD freinds? what are those? Or hey, here's a thought, if you are in a guild and spend the entire time you are playing talking with people in your guild even if you are running around killing stuff / questing solo... guess what, you are part of a group. SHOCK AND AWE
I can play with friends in a solo game.
I"m not grouping to "play with friends" just like I don't play basketball or soccer to "play with friends".
I play because it's a challenging TEAM based game.
Why can't you play with friends while you solo? I do.
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like: 1) People AFKing whenever 2) People leaving whenever 3) Waiting for the group to be formed 4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found 5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's why you play with friends and form guilds. It's called community.
Where did this "Grouping is harder" business come from? Groups allow you to take on "harder" content at an earlier point than a soloer, it certainly isn't "harder" than soloing. These games require the ability of a sloth to play, lets face it. Only the very worst people at their characters stand out as bad apples. These games are meant for the masses, and that means making them "easy" to play. Chess is hard, WoW/Eve/DAOC/WAR/AOC/FFXI/<Insert MMO name here> is easy. If anything, grouping is *easier* than soloing, as you have many people with many abilities that can help vs 1 person with 1 set of skills. And of course, most groups kill the same stuff as soloers, only far faster (more xp/skill gains that way, the "optimal path".)
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like: 1) People AFKing whenever 2) People leaving whenever 3) Waiting for the group to be formed 4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found 5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's why you play with friends and form guilds. It's called community.
I can play with friends in a solo game. I"m not grouping to "play with friends" just like I don't play basketball or soccer to "play with friends". I play because it's a challenging TEAM based game. Why can't you play with friends while you solo? I do.
So it's all about competition.
I'm sorry to hear that.
To me these are games, about enjoyment.
And since they are not in real life, unlike sports, I don't think they are worth taking too much pride in.
Let's face it, no one gives a shit if you are level 80 with full epics, but people care if you are a great athlete.
MMO's are not a sport. Stop the references PLEASE.
Where did this "Grouping is harder" business come from? Groups allow you to take on "harder" content at an earlier point than a soloer, it certainly isn't "harder" than soloing. These games require the ability of a sloth to play, lets face it. Only the very worst people at their characters stand out as bad apples. These games are meant for the masses, and that means making them "easy" to play. Chess is hard, WoW/Eve/DAOC/WAR/AOC/FFXI/<Insert MMO name here> is easy. If anything, grouping is *easier* than soloing, as you have many people with many abilities that can help vs 1 person with 1 set of skills. And of course, most groups kill the same stuff as soloers, only far faster (more xp/skill gains that way, the "optimal path".)
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
That isn't making something "harder".
That's making something "more annoying", "less fun", "more frustrating". Should you get more phat lewtz because you can stomach hour long waits for groups? Heck no.
The reward for being in a GOOD group is already there. Socialization, the ability to either a) grind the same mobs faster or b) take on mobs that are too difficult to solo (in case they drop "better" loots).
That's all the rewards grouping should provide. That's all they need to provide.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports? Really? Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
Where did this "Grouping is harder" business come from? Groups allow you to take on "harder" content at an earlier point than a soloer, it certainly isn't "harder" than soloing. These games require the ability of a sloth to play, lets face it. Only the very worst people at their characters stand out as bad apples. These games are meant for the masses, and that means making them "easy" to play. Chess is hard, WoW/Eve/DAOC/WAR/AOC/FFXI/<Insert MMO name here> is easy. If anything, grouping is *easier* than soloing, as you have many people with many abilities that can help vs 1 person with 1 set of skills. And of course, most groups kill the same stuff as soloers, only far faster (more xp/skill gains that way, the "optimal path".)
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
That isn't making something "harder".
That's making something "more annoying", "less fun", "more frustrating". Should you get more phat lewtz because you can stomach hour long waits for groups? Heck no.
The reward for being in a GOOD group is already there. Socialization, the ability to either a) grind the same mobs faster or b) take on mobs that are too difficult to solo (in case they drop "better" loots).
That's all the rewards grouping should provide. That's all they need to provide.
What you find annoying, I find enjoyable.
All games are not for all people.
When you make it "less frustrating" for you, it becomes "less fun" for me.
See?
I don't want to make ti frustrating for you, I just want it to be fun for me. IS that ok with you that I have a game I find to be fun?
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups. It is EXACTLY the same. It's FUN because you're part of a team. Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets. But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets. Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing. You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun. But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant. If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM. IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
But people soloing stops you from grouping?
And grouping trivializes a lot of content that you can normally solo anyway?
I can play with friends in a solo game. I"m not grouping to "play with friends" just like I don't play basketball or soccer to "play with friends". I play because it's a challenging TEAM based game. Why can't you play with friends while you solo? I do.
So it's all about competition.
I'm sorry to hear that.
To me these are games, about enjoyment.
And since they are not in real life, unlike sports, I don't think they are worth taking too much pride in.
Let's face it, no one gives a shit if you are level 80 with full epics, but people care if you are a great athlete.
MMO's are not a sport. Stop the references PLEASE.
Iit's about REWARD versus EFFORT.
There is no reason to put in the EFFORT if it's not REWARDED.
And that is what is FUN about the game, when you are rewarded for effort.
YOu do it to.
You are soloing to get loot, levels, xp, gold, gear, skillz, or SOMETHING>
If what you're sayhing is true, then you can go play Second Life, where there is no advancement, and you will be just as happy playhing an RPG.
Dont' tell me you aren't soloing for some IN game reward, I do not believe you.
At some point, you would not solo if the reward was changed, like you got one xp point for killing a dragon, and it took 1 million points to make it to level two.
You wouldn't play the game, but you tell ME it's about competition, but not about competition for you wihen you do the exact same thing I"m doing.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups. It is EXACTLY the same. It's FUN because you're part of a team. Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets. But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets. Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing. You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun. But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant. If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM. IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
But people soloing stops you from grouping?
And grouping trivializes a lot of content that you can normally solo anyway?
That's the problem right?
If you can make a brilliant post, a bettr post than I"ve read all day on these forums, I will make a topic right now that I think you are the best poster on these boards.
You might feel some slight incentive to make a brilliant post, AND you might feel quite complimented when I post that you're the best on these boards rigth?
Now lets change it.
No matter what you write, I"m going to post you're teh best poster on these boards.
You see no difference? You don't see the reward doesn't mean anything now that I've removed the challenge?
Iit's about REWARD versus EFFORT. I'm a Tank so I know all about effort in a group There is no reason to put in the EFFORT if it's not REWARDED. So there is no reason to ever put in the effort to help others if you are not rewarded for it? Ouch... And that is what is FUN about the game, when you are rewarded for effort. Rewards are fun but the experience itself is fun too if the game is good. Are you a loot whore? YOu do it to. You are soloing to get loot, levels, xp, gold, gear, skillz, or SOMETHING> If what you're sayhing is true, then you can go play Second Life, where there is no advancement, and you will be just as happy playhing an RPG. It worked just fine in Ultima Online, kept me playing for years and I could macro 7x GM in a week (macros were legal) but no I do love advancement in a RPG fashion. Dont' tell me you aren't soloing for some IN game reward, I do not believe you. I only solo when I don't have a group. At some point, you would not solo if the reward was changed, like you got one xp point for killing a dragon, and it took 1 million points to make it to level two. That would just be adding un-needed tedium and wastefulness, kind of like rest systems in old school MMOs that forced you to just sit there You wouldn't play the game, but you tell ME it's about competition, but not about competition for you wihen you do the exact same thing I"m doing.
I'm just saying I don't take these games seriously enough to compare them to sports.. because... well, that's just silly.
If you can make a brilliant post, a bettr post than I"ve read all day on these forums, I will make a topic right now that I think you are the best poster on these boards. You might feel some slight incentive to make a brilliant post, AND you might feel quite complimented when I post that you're the best on these boards rigth? Now lets change it. No matter what you write, I"m going to post you're teh best poster on these boards. You see no difference? You don't see the reward doesn't mean anything now that I've removed the challenge?
You know I wish MMORPG's could be challenging and rewarding the entire leveling experience as well as the end-game, without being just wastefully tedius and overly demanding.
I'm a hardcore raider at heart I love the challenge of coordinating a team and executing flawlessly.
But I understand that these games exist in a real world with finite development time and resources and talent in their creators and I understand that variety keeps things interesting and fresh.
I also like having something to look forward to and work towards.
So I have no idea what rant you are on now, I think you've lost it bud.
If you can make a brilliant post, a bettr post than I"ve read all day on these forums, I will make a topic right now that I think you are the best poster on these boards. You might feel some slight incentive to make a brilliant post, AND you might feel quite complimented when I post that you're the best on these boards rigth? Now lets change it. No matter what you write, I"m going to post you're teh best poster on these boards. You see no difference? You don't see the reward doesn't mean anything now that I've removed the challenge?
You know I wish MMORPG's could be challenging and rewarding the entire leveling experience as well as the end-game, without being just wastefully tedius and overly demanding.
I'm a hardcore raider at heart I love the challenge of coordinating a team and executing flawlessly.
But I understand that these games exist in a real world with finite development time and resources and talent in their creators and I understand that variety keeps things interesting and fresh.
I also like having something to look forward to and work towards.
So I have no idea what rant you are on now, I think you've lost it bud.
I think the point that Imhotepp is trying to make is that some of us just prefer grouping in our MMORPGs rather than soloing. We aren't really concerned with reward, but the problem is that many people are.
Making a group can be tedious in an MMORPG, we all know that. However, adding soloability on the same scale as grouping makes it even more difficult. "Hey man want to come group in Velks Lab?" "Heck no I'm soloing for way more xp".
That doesn't mean that I am making the choice to play alone, it means that less people are going to make the choice to play in groups, and that I won't have anyone to group with.
There is an easy fix to this though, I don't want to force soloers to group, they suck at it anyways. I would just like ONE new MMORPG to have grouping and bring back the more "hardcore" aspects of gaming. I just want ONE, so that all of the groupers like me can join together and play our "niche" MMORPG. I can guarantee if a developer put the time and effort into a group based MMO that they do now in their solo-fests, it would be a hit. Would it top WoW? Definately not, would they make a profit and draw in a large, positive, respectful community? Most certainly.
So even though in 99% of MMORPGs the "end-game" is all about forced grouping...
So let me get this straight.
1. You want to group because it is fun and challenging, because it's fun to play a role and optimize that role. I agree.
2. 99% of MMOs involve the vast majority of "end-game" content as forced-grouping (see #1)
3. You like advancing a character i.e. RPG progression, cool so do I.
4. Soloing is considered "faster" to get to the end-game of forced grouping, see #1, 2, 3
5. You want to get to end-game as fast as possible to experience the forced grouping stuff (see #1, 2, 3, 4)
6. You'd rather be forced into grouping from the very start?
Why not just remove the leveling process all together and make the game entirely group based and offer alternative progression then standard RPG leveling?
Originally posted by Ihmotepp So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports? Really? Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
So even though in 99% of MMORPGs the "end-game" is all about forced grouping... So let me get this straight. 1. You want to group because it is fun and challenging, because it's fun to play a role and optimize that role. I agree. 2. 99% of MMOs involve the vast majority of "end-game" content as forced-grouping (see #1)
3. You like advancing a character i.e. RPG progression, cool so do I. 4. Soloing is considered "faster" to get to the end-game of forced grouping, see #1, 2, 3
5. You want to get to end-game as fast as possible to experience the forced grouping stuff (see #1, 2, 3, 4)
6. You'd rather be forced into grouping from the very start?
Why not just remove the leveling process all together and make the game entirely group based and offer alternative progression then standard RPG leveling?
I don't like raiding, I like grouping.
I don't see them as the same thing, although You might.
I like something that requires between 2-8 players to accomplish, no more.
Im' not interested in getting to the end game at all if you mean raiding, I just want a good grouping game.
Comments
You want a group only game so solo players can't/don't play it.
Solo player don't care at all if you group up in the same game they play.
In fact, they'll likely group with you if they need to.
Of the two, one seems a lot more financially marketable and thusly more likely to find a publisher and sufficient funding to make a quality, polished content with both a breadth of content and depth of features.
See, what WoW did that was pure genius was give you solo quest chains that led into group dungeon content. The solo player had reason to seek out a group!
You can't say the same is true anymore, but come on it's been 5 years I applaud them for speeding up 1-60 content becuase there simply aren't enough new account anymore to make the early level grouping that was once SO important as appealing anymore.
I think it's a case of "you missed the boat" because I spent a good 75% of my time in WoW 1-60 and then 60-70 and 70-80 in groups.
It's the late adapaters that are behind the curve that complain and then we see things made easier for the solo player.
It's all about perspective.
Sorry but you cannot practice shooting alone with any degree of success. You need a goalie to make sure you are training corrently. Second you can practice your skating alone but with others it is better because they can force you to do better and give you pointers.
Again you proved my point... Why is there a group instanced dungeon? Why cannot it be just a dungeon with it up to the players to group or solo it depending on play style.
I play a group centered game because I like grouping... I refused to play a solo centered game because I am a group player.
Because that's just a solo game.
Why would I bother to group in that game? There's no point if I can solo it, because thaty's much easier than getting a group together.
So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports?
Really?
Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
Of course solo players don't care if I group iun their solo game.
Why would they? THey'd be getting twice the reward as me, because I'm taking time to group and they are not, duh.
Jesus fucking Christ guys, the point of grouping in a "solo" game is so that you can play with friends!
OH MY FUCKING GOD freinds? what are those?
Or hey, here's a thought, if you are in a guild and spend the entire time you are playing talking with people in your guild even if you are running around killing stuff / questing solo...
guess what, you are part of a group.
SHOCK AND AWE
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
I can play with friends in a solo game.
I"m not grouping to "play with friends" just like I don't play basketball or soccer to "play with friends".
I play because it's a challenging TEAM based game.
Why can't you play with friends while you solo? I do.
Exactly, that's why you play with friends and form guilds. It's called community.
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
Exactly, that's why you play with friends and form guilds. It's called community.
But you don't need a guild if you can solo.
So it's all about competition.
I'm sorry to hear that.
To me these are games, about enjoyment.
And since they are not in real life, unlike sports, I don't think they are worth taking too much pride in.
Let's face it, no one gives a shit if you are level 80 with full epics, but people care if you are a great athlete.
MMO's are not a sport. Stop the references PLEASE.
Wow.
Well, I can't argue with that.
Congratulations, you are the least social MMORPG player I have ever met.
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
That isn't making something "harder".
That's making something "more annoying", "less fun", "more frustrating". Should you get more phat lewtz because you can stomach hour long waits for groups? Heck no.
The reward for being in a GOOD group is already there. Socialization, the ability to either a) grind the same mobs faster or b) take on mobs that are too difficult to solo (in case they drop "better" loots).
That's all the rewards grouping should provide. That's all they need to provide.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
If grouping were easier than solo, no one would QQ about "forced grouping".
Nice leap of logic there, but it failed. Forced grouping implies having to do everything in a group. Grouping is easier as far as the game mechanics go, but it comes with downsides like:
1) People AFKing whenever
2) People leaving whenever
3) Waiting for the group to be formed
4) Waiting for the last critical piece of the group to be found
5) Random idiots that infest forced grouping games.
Exactly, that's what makes grouping so much harder than playing solo.
THAT is why groupers require much more xp than solo players, to compensate for all this time and effort involved in group, so the reward is worth the effort.
People don't do that sort of stuff if there's no reason for it, duh.
That isn't making something "harder".
That's making something "more annoying", "less fun", "more frustrating". Should you get more phat lewtz because you can stomach hour long waits for groups? Heck no.
The reward for being in a GOOD group is already there. Socialization, the ability to either a) grind the same mobs faster or b) take on mobs that are too difficult to solo (in case they drop "better" loots).
That's all the rewards grouping should provide. That's all they need to provide.
What you find annoying, I find enjoyable.
All games are not for all people.
When you make it "less frustrating" for you, it becomes "less fun" for me.
See?
I don't want to make ti frustrating for you, I just want it to be fun for me. IS that ok with you that I have a game I find to be fun?
But people soloing stops you from grouping?
And grouping trivializes a lot of content that you can normally solo anyway?
That's the problem right?
So it's all about competition.
I'm sorry to hear that.
To me these are games, about enjoyment.
And since they are not in real life, unlike sports, I don't think they are worth taking too much pride in.
Let's face it, no one gives a shit if you are level 80 with full epics, but people care if you are a great athlete.
MMO's are not a sport. Stop the references PLEASE.
Iit's about REWARD versus EFFORT.
There is no reason to put in the EFFORT if it's not REWARDED.
And that is what is FUN about the game, when you are rewarded for effort.
YOu do it to.
You are soloing to get loot, levels, xp, gold, gear, skillz, or SOMETHING>
If what you're sayhing is true, then you can go play Second Life, where there is no advancement, and you will be just as happy playhing an RPG.
Dont' tell me you aren't soloing for some IN game reward, I do not believe you.
At some point, you would not solo if the reward was changed, like you got one xp point for killing a dragon, and it took 1 million points to make it to level two.
You wouldn't play the game, but you tell ME it's about competition, but not about competition for you wihen you do the exact same thing I"m doing.
But people soloing stops you from grouping?
And grouping trivializes a lot of content that you can normally solo anyway?
That's the problem right?
If you can make a brilliant post, a bettr post than I"ve read all day on these forums, I will make a topic right now that I think you are the best poster on these boards.
You might feel some slight incentive to make a brilliant post, AND you might feel quite complimented when I post that you're the best on these boards rigth?
Now lets change it.
No matter what you write, I"m going to post you're teh best poster on these boards.
You see no difference? You don't see the reward doesn't mean anything now that I've removed the challenge?
I'm just saying I don't take these games seriously enough to compare them to sports.. because... well, that's just silly.
You know I wish MMORPG's could be challenging and rewarding the entire leveling experience as well as the end-game, without being just wastefully tedius and overly demanding.
I'm a hardcore raider at heart I love the challenge of coordinating a team and executing flawlessly.
But I understand that these games exist in a real world with finite development time and resources and talent in their creators and I understand that variety keeps things interesting and fresh.
I also like having something to look forward to and work towards.
So I have no idea what rant you are on now, I think you've lost it bud.
You know I wish MMORPG's could be challenging and rewarding the entire leveling experience as well as the end-game, without being just wastefully tedius and overly demanding.
I'm a hardcore raider at heart I love the challenge of coordinating a team and executing flawlessly.
But I understand that these games exist in a real world with finite development time and resources and talent in their creators and I understand that variety keeps things interesting and fresh.
I also like having something to look forward to and work towards.
So I have no idea what rant you are on now, I think you've lost it bud.
I think the point that Imhotepp is trying to make is that some of us just prefer grouping in our MMORPGs rather than soloing. We aren't really concerned with reward, but the problem is that many people are.
Making a group can be tedious in an MMORPG, we all know that. However, adding soloability on the same scale as grouping makes it even more difficult. "Hey man want to come group in Velks Lab?" "Heck no I'm soloing for way more xp".
That doesn't mean that I am making the choice to play alone, it means that less people are going to make the choice to play in groups, and that I won't have anyone to group with.
There is an easy fix to this though, I don't want to force soloers to group, they suck at it anyways. I would just like ONE new MMORPG to have grouping and bring back the more "hardcore" aspects of gaming. I just want ONE, so that all of the groupers like me can join together and play our "niche" MMORPG. I can guarantee if a developer put the time and effort into a group based MMO that they do now in their solo-fests, it would be a hit. Would it top WoW? Definately not, would they make a profit and draw in a large, positive, respectful community? Most certainly.
So even though in 99% of MMORPGs the "end-game" is all about forced grouping...
So let me get this straight.
1. You want to group because it is fun and challenging, because it's fun to play a role and optimize that role. I agree.
2. 99% of MMOs involve the vast majority of "end-game" content as forced-grouping (see #1)
3. You like advancing a character i.e. RPG progression, cool so do I.
4. Soloing is considered "faster" to get to the end-game of forced grouping, see #1, 2, 3
5. You want to get to end-game as fast as possible to experience the forced grouping stuff (see #1, 2, 3, 4)
6. You'd rather be forced into grouping from the very start?
Why not just remove the leveling process all together and make the game entirely group based and offer alternative progression then standard RPG leveling?
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
I don't like raiding, I like grouping.
I don't see them as the same thing, although You might.
I like something that requires between 2-8 players to accomplish, no more.
Im' not interested in getting to the end game at all if you mean raiding, I just want a good grouping game.
When you only care about the reward and being the best then yeah it is like a sports team.
Community and doing things "just because" are concepts beyond his scope of comprehension.