Originally posted by Ihmotepp So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports? Really? Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
You're not "grouped" with people just because they are on the same server.
You are not required to cooperate with each other to achieve objectives. That's what's fun adn challenging for me.
MMORPGs are GAMES , like basketball is a game.
MMORPGs are NOT like the real world. If they were, you would not respawn.
When you only care about the reward and being the best then yeah it is like a sports team. Community and doing things "just because" are concepts beyond his scope of comprehension.
Easy to say, when yuou're asking me to give up my group game and play your solo game.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp I don't like raiding, I like grouping.
I don't see them as the same thing, although You might. I like something that requires between 2-8 players to accomplish, no more. Im' not interested in getting to the end game at all if you mean raiding, I just want a good grouping game.
World of Warcraft is the perfect game for you.
It only takes about 2 hours to get to level 10, and once you do you can do nothing but group dungeons that require 5 players to do!
These dungeons offer better rewards and more money then your standard quests, and because the mobs are more challenging you actually earn more experience points faster because of the group bonus and rate at which you kill them!
You can do NOTHING but these group dungeons all the way to the level cap, and there are so many you'll only have to do the same one a few times before moving on to the next one.
Then once you get to the maximum level there are Heroic modes for the dungeons! These offer additional challenges and thus better loot. They require a lot more effort and skill though, so the rewards are totally worth it!
Sounds like the perfect game for you! The grouping is all about playing your role and fufilling that role to it's maximum potential!
World of Warcraft is the perfect game for you. It only takes about 2 hours to get to level 10, and once you do you can do nothing but group dungeons that require 5 players to do! These dungeons offer better rewards and more money then your standard quests, and because the mobs are more challenging you actually earn more experience points faster because of the group bonus and rate at which you kill them! You can do NOTHING but these group dungeons all the way to the level cap, and there are so many you'll only have to do the same one a few times before moving on to the next one.
Then once you get to the maximum level there are Heroic modes for the dungeons! These offer additional challenges and thus better loot. They require a lot more effort and skill though, so the rewards are totally worth it!
Sounds like the perfect game for you! The grouping is all about playing your role and fufilling that role to it's maximum potential!
Except that World Of Warcraft sucks.... and is there anything stoping you from going to dungeons you couldn't solo at your level and wiping them off after you're higher levels? With the exception of end-game content any of these dungeons you can come back to I believe. Your character has progressed through your solo play, you get to see his progression and all the content of the dungeon by soloing it. Sounds like WOW is good for you too is it not? Or is it the exclusion of loot drops that you have a problem with?
Because through the various threads soloer's have tried to maintain it's not loot or rewards that they are upset about but not getting to see all the content.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp So you think people play soccer, football or basketball, just so they can exclude peple that don't like to play team sports? Really? Sorry dude, but it ain't about you, or wanting to exclude you. I'ts about wanting a challenging game.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
You're not "grouped" with people just because they are on the same server.
You are not required to cooperate with each other to achieve objectives. That's what's fun adn challenging for me.
MMORPGs are GAMES , like basketball is a game.
MMORPGs are NOT like the real world. If they were, you would not respawn.
You are "grouped" with people on your server because your objective is to play the game.
Again, MMORPGs are community games. Just like real world communities you have an option to group up with other people. MMORPGs are NOT like the real world, you're right. Rather they attempt to EMULATE the real world by allowing people to do certain things.
Except that World Of Warcraft sucks.... and is there anything stoping you from going to dungeons you couldn't solo at your level and wiping them off after you're higher levels? With the exception of end-game content any of these dungeons you can come back to I believe. Your character has progressed through your solo play, you get to see his progression and all the content of the dungeon by soloing it. Sounds like WOW is good for you too is it not? Or is it the exclusion of loot drops that you have a problem with? Because through the various threads soloer's have tried to maintain it's not loot or rewards that they are upset about but not getting to see all the content.
No I'm saying that for someone who really likes to group is offers more content for group play then most other MMORPGs and it's more polished and better tuned.
If you got your head out of your ass you'd see that skipping the dungeons to go back and solo them later is exactly what I have been saying is wrong with MMORPG communities and why this argument doesn't even matter becuase it's all about how you choose to play the game.
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction.
So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction. So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
When it comes to the combat aspect of MMORPGS and they are based around group play, it IS like a team sport. Now if you want to say that crafting has nothing in common with it, socializing, exploring, than sure I can agree with that. If your complaint is there isn't enough to do outside of combat in games today, then I can agree with that. But to say that there is no similarity in a team sport and games which are combative by nature, I have to disagree.
But if you've ever 8 vs 8 in daoc, you'd know that the team play mattered. Hell even 4 vs a zerg your "team's" or "group's" performance mattered.
As for your stretch on basketball and gear, etc.. Techinically millions of dollars are spent every year to create better shoes, better rims, better basketballs, and better courts. So there is technically an upgrade component via gear that affects the game. Same with golf, tennis, football... not really sure where you were going with it, I'm just poking a little fun at it.
Except that World Of Warcraft sucks.... and is there anything stoping you from going to dungeons you couldn't solo at your level and wiping them off after you're higher levels? With the exception of end-game content any of these dungeons you can come back to I believe. Your character has progressed through your solo play, you get to see his progression and all the content of the dungeon by soloing it. Sounds like WOW is good for you too is it not? Or is it the exclusion of loot drops that you have a problem with? Because through the various threads soloer's have tried to maintain it's not loot or rewards that they are upset about but not getting to see all the content.
No I'm saying that for someone who really likes to group is offers more content for group play then most other MMORPGs and it's more polished and better tuned.
If you got your head out of your ass you'd see that skipping the dungeons to go back and solo them later is exactly what I have been saying is wrong with MMORPG communities and why this argument doesn't even matter becuase it's all about how you choose to play the game.
Upset much? I guess it didn't occur to you that I only started reading from about 2 pages back because there are so many long threads about solo vs. grouping I don't want to read every bit of all of them, and I might possibly have not known your position on it, rather I just responded to one post I had an interest in?? No of course not that couldn't be the case,, I must have my head up my ass.......
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction. So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
What game are you playing? Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
Nope - by grouping with 3 other people for average PvE mobs, you get 25% of the XP and loot, and only have a 1 in 4 chance of winning a roll for an item you want. Grouping for a quest is practicable, though, since nobody shares quest xp and you get the full quest rewards you are entitled to when the quest is completed, but you'll still have to put up with the conditions described above for standard mobs encountered along the way. I prefer groups that last one quest and then promptly break up, personally.
The standard rationale for grouping is, of course, that you're killing mobs faster - but I'd prefer all the loot, full xp and the pleasure of not listening to the blather of people I'll never see again. XP may not be as fast, but it's fast enough for me, it's more profitable - especially given that any resources/nodes I encounter are all mine to gather - and there's a hell of a lot less arguments and whinging over drops, too.
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat. So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team. Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
The middle linebacker would generally be the leader on defense and one of the safeties the lieutenant.
Defensive line would be tanks, linebackers and secondary your dps.
Pretty much the whole defense, and skill players on offense would have a dual role as Crowd control due to motion, playaction, alignment as well.
Hopefully my Jaguars will rebound this year and have a respectable season.
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction. So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
When it comes to the combat aspect of MMORPGS and they are based around group play, it IS like a team sport. Now if you want to say that crafting has nothing in common with it, socializing, exploring, than sure I can agree with that. If your complaint is there isn't enough to do outside of combat in games today, then I can agree with that. But to say that there is no similarity in a team sport and games which are combative by nature, I have to disagree.
But if you've ever 8 vs 8 in daoc, you'd know that the team play mattered. Hell even 4 vs a zerg your "team's" or "group's" performance mattered.
As for your stretch on basketball and gear, etc.. Techinically millions of dollars are spent every year to create better shoes, better rims, better basketballs, and better courts. So there is technically an upgrade component via gear that affects the game. Same with golf, tennis, football... not really sure where you were going with it, I'm just poking a little fun at it.
I think you did not quite understand what I was saying there. So if you're really poking fun at anything, yyou got a rebound comingyour way
With my example about "gear, etc.", I was drawing attention to the other spheres of an MMORPG that is not part of combat - like the economy sphere, the socializing sphere. Those sphere are *built into* the game in an MMORPG, not *around* it. Whereas in basketball, the shoes, rims, balls etc. are not part of the game itself at all. They're built *around* it. They're more akin to gaming computers, controllers, or even expanded universe stuff like books, etc. They're part of the *industry* as a whole, but not the game itself, whereas stuff like trading, crafting, getting and selling gear, socializing are part of the MMORP games themselves. More clearly, you do these things *inside* the game, so that while you're doing them, you're playing the game. When you buy a basketball, is that playing basketball? No.
Of course the group combat mechanics part of an MMORPG can be likened to team sports a bit more. The keyword there is, "part". That was my point - that combat gameplay is not and should not be all an MMORPG provides. And yes, the games today have quite some stuff to do outside of combat and I'm doing them in several I'm subscribed to. Heck, I've played some MMOs for months without ever getting into serious combat at all. So, was I not playing an MMORPG?
What game are you playing? Because every MMORPG I play you get better rewards and more experiences/money/gear from grouping then soloing.
Nope - by grouping with 3 other people for average PvE mobs, you get 25% of the XP and loot, and only have a 1 in 4 chance of winning a roll for an item you want. Grouping for a quest is practicable, though, since nobody shares quest xp and you get the full quest rewards you are entitled to when the quest is completed, but you'll still have to put up with the conditions described above for standard mobs encountered along the way. I prefer groups that last one quest and then promptly break up, personally.
The standard rationale for grouping is, of course, that you're killing mobs faster - but I'd prefer all the loot, full xp and the pleasure of not listening to the blather of people I'll never see again. XP may not be as fast, but it's fast enough for me, it's more profitable - especially given that any resources/nodes I encounter are all mine to gather - and there's a hell of a lot less arguments and whinging over drops, too.
So your style of solo play is based on an anti-social and greedy premise. Not that it's wrong, I'm just trying to clarify because of the myriad of arguments out right now about solo play, social aspects, and loot whoring.
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction. So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
I can make no sense of why my main point is being ignored to I'll try to put it more bluntly:
I can play an MMORPG without getting involved in any sort of combat for months and months. So I'm saying MMORPGs are *more than combat*.
I'm subscribed to several MMORPGs at all times, and in most of them I don't fight... like, *at all*. I don't tank, I don't heal, I don't do damage. I don't even swear or wish ill to any PC or NPC! So how is this like playing football?
Your example has to do strictly with combat and shows a general disregard of my main point. So much so that I even doubt you've actually read my whole post.
You know what? I don't care if I'm a bad person for feeling the way I feel and liking what I like. I don't even care if it means I'm stupid, lazy, selfish, a newb, a boob, or any other insult anyone wants to throw at me. I like what I like and if I'm going to pay to play a game it has to be what I like.
I like being able to log into a game knowing that it will be easy to get into a group because lots and lots of other people will be grouping all the time and needing more people for their groups or willing to join my group. I know, I'm horrible.
I like it when the groups I'm in work together, it doesn't have to be over-the-top, ridiculous coordination required, just...you know, a little teamwork. Like if we don't work together we'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, I'm showing my true colors. Spawn of Satan and all that, I know.
I like a little slower pace to things so that there's time for a witty comment or two. A joke here and there. Maybe even a little roleplay if someone is into that. A little communication between the group members is what I'm getting at. So I don't like constant hack and slash with no pauses. I don't even care if the people I'm grouped with are not witty or funny, I take the good with the bad. God, I know, I'm terrible.
I like a game that has so much grouping going on all the time that I don't have to pre-schedule a simple experience group or cajole people to hang out with me even though they know they could do things faster solo. Pretty damn selfish of me, it's true. But I don't care, I embrace my selfishness, that's how scummy I really am.
When someone tells me I can group all I want in any game if I'm willing to just go group with myself I think they are being illogical. But that's probably just because I'm a bullheaded ignoramous. This solo grouping thing has never really satisfied me but I know it's just because I'm being stubborn.
So whatever. I'm a bad person and I know it. And I don't care. I like casual grouping. I want a game that gives people a reason to group so that I can just log in and hook up with people (yes, random pug people, <gasp>) any time I feel like it. Yeah, that's right, any damn time the whim strikes me I want to be able to find a group. I don't want to have to schedule it in advance. I don't want to have to drag people away from what they are doing to come group with me. I don't want to have to join some random guild just for the hope of having some people to hang out with. I want groups and grouping to be so common that I can just casually drop into the game and join or form a group at any time.
So the truth is out. Now you all know what a disgusting, horrible, petty, little man I am. And I don't care.
I think you did not quite understand what I was saying there. So if you're really poking fun at anything, yyou got a rebound comingyour way With my example about "gear, etc.", I was drawing attention to the other spheres of an MMORPG that is not part of combat - like the economy sphere, the socializing sphere. Those sphere are *built into* the game in an MMORPG, not *around* it. Whereas in basketball, the shoes, rims, balls etc. are not part of the game itself at all. They're built *around* it. They're more akin to gaming computers, controllers, or even expanded universe stuff like books, etc. They're part of the *industry* as a whole, but not the game itself, whereas stuff like trading, crafting, getting and selling gear, socializing are part of the MMORP games themselves. More clearly, you do these things *inside* the game, so that while you're doing them, you're playing the game. When you buy a basketball, is that playing basketball? No. Of course the group combat mechanics part of an MMORPG can be likened to team sports a bit more. The keyword there is, "part". That was my point - that combat gameplay is not and should not be all an MMORPG provides. And yes, the games today have quite some stuff to do outside of combat and I'm doing them in several I'm subscribed to. Heck, I've played some MMOs for months without ever getting into serious combat at all. So, was I not playing an MMORPG?
I got ya. But I still believe that although shoes are built around the game they are used in the game. They are technically upgrades. But that's just nitpicking and semantics more than anything. On to the real point.
I agree and UO, which I never played, or EvE are perfect examples. You can be an industrialist, miner, politician, and more in EVE and never see combat. You are playing the game, and you are interacting with other players. Unless you are part of a corporation who is working towards a goal together you are not part of a team, but you affect the game world nonetheless.
More games do need to cater to these roles and it's my opinion that when WoW came out they got away from these ideals. As an example,, Crafters in daoc were like gold, until ToA made them useless because dropped items were much more valuable than player crafted gear. Drops, destroyed that aspect of the game.
Bind on equip,pickup also destroys any chance of traders, marketers, etc. Because half the stuff you get you can't sell or give away and players are forced to go on raids if they want those items.
Although I am going to play Aion for the time being, I'm really hoping for Earthrise to be successful. Even Darkfall had the knowledge that people want more than just combat in a game, even if their release and everything is as horrid as people say.
Instead of just creating loot dropped items; resources should be the major focus of any encounter in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just how I feel about it.
You know what? I don't care if I'm a bad person for feeling the way I feel and liking what I like. I don't even care if it means I'm stupid, lazy, selfish, a newb, a boob, or any other insult anyone wants to throw at me. I like what I like and if I'm going to pay to play a game it has to be what I like. I like being able to log into a game knowing that it will be easy to get into a group because lots and lots of other people will be grouping all the time and needing more people for their groups or willing to join my group. I know, I'm horrible. I like it when the groups I'm in work together, it doesn't have to be over-the-top, ridiculous coordination required, just...you know, a little teamwork. Like if we don't work together we'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, I'm showing my true colors. Spawn of Satan and all that, I know. I like a little slower pace to things so that there's time for a witty comment or two. A joke here and there. Maybe even a little roleplay if someone is into that. A little communication between the group members is what I'm getting at. So I don't like constant hack and slash with no pauses. I don't even care if the people I'm grouped with are not witty or funny, I take the good with the bad. God, I know, I'm terrible. I like a game that has so much grouping going on all the time that I don't have to pre-schedule a simple experience group or cajole people to hang out with me even though they know they could do things faster solo. Pretty damn selfish of me, it's true. But I don't care, I embrace my selfishness, that's how scummy I really am. When someone tells me I can group all I want in any game if I'm willing to just go group with myself I think they are being illogical. But that's probably just because I'm a bullheaded ignoramous. This solo grouping thing has never really satisfied me but I know it's just because I'm being stubborn. So whatever. I'm a bad person and I know it. And I don't care. I like casual grouping. I want a game that gives people a reason to group so that I can just log in and hook up with people (yes, random pug people, <gasp>) any time I feel like it. Yeah, that's right, any damn time the whim strikes me I want to be able to find a group. I don't want to have to schedule it in advance. I don't want to have to drag people away from what they are doing to come group with me. I don't want to have to join some random guild just for the hope of having some people to hang out with. I want groups and grouping to be so common that I can just casually drop into the game and join or form a group at any time. So the truth is out. Now you all know what a disgusting, horrible, petty, little man I am. And I don't care.
This exactly how I feel and is why I oppose all these 'forced grouping' schemes the extreme groupers are advocationg. Grouping in MMORPGs should be organic and happen because people want to do stuff together. You start to force grouping on people and you only create more people who prefer to solo. Grouping should be about teamwork and community and not abour faster XP or 'epeen' loot.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp It was a typo, which I corrected. I mean to say they had good grouping games. Just enough downtime to let you discuss what to do next, chat, etc., while you regained hit points, mana, lost rez sickness, and could start fighting again. Newer games lke CoH, have no downtime. It's fight, fight, fight, kill boss mob, done, kthxbye. I like something with a bit slower pace.
Yeah, and that's something that some people don't seem to get. Just because a game has some grouping it doesn't neccesarily mean that it's the type of grouping experience that will satisfy a group oriented player.
I haven't played CoH but I played Guild Wars some and even though you can group with other players for some of the missions it's not a very enjoyable experience for the most part. It's generally just--RUN RUN RUN, KILL KILL KILL, done, the instance ends and hardly a word was exchanged between the members of the group. And in most cases there was hardly any sort of cooperative effort required so it felt more like soloing near other people than like grouping.
At this point in time, for me, the lack of good, friendly grouping is killing this genre more than anything else (for me I said). I may talk about the <Dream Game> from time to time. I may talk about sandboxy stuff. I may talk about improved AI. But putting aside dreams for the future, the thing that is making games RIGHT NOW completely unattractive to me is the lack of good grouping.
It's really depressing for me. I'm not trying to convert anyone because that can't be done. I'm just saying how it is for me.
Amen brother. It's not about trying to make every game the same because you like it that way, it's about trying to find a game that you (we) like. All I want is a few group oriented games to choose from and ill be happy (one good one would be nice). All the other ones I could care less about and they can be as solo friendly as they want. To each his own.
See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice.
You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to.
"But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
I agree that what I'm talking about it a playstyle choice. As a matter of fact I think I made that quite clear in this post and every other post ive made on the subject.
Listen man, I understand where you're coming from. I realize that the option exists in a game such as WoW to level all the way up with a group and do everything with a group but there's a key point that I don't think is being made clear. When it's possible to level to the cap solo that means that the leveling content was designed for a soloer. What I'm looking for is a game that is designed to be completed as a group (leveling to the cap). There's a huge difference between the two games in my opinion. It has nothing to do with me worrying about what other people are doing. It has everything to do with the gameplay experience between the two.
Ideally, I'm looking for a game where the content is designed for groups. I don't like instances for every dungeon in the game so you can strike that off the list. I would like there to be solo content that I can do while LFG or when I've only got an hour to play. Hell, even a solo story arc and some solo endgame content would be cool.
I think what is failing to be seen here is that the way a game is designed greatly affects how it is played and how it is perceieved and enjoyed. I'll give you an example (and this is not in reference to solo vs. group content, it's an example for different ways to play a game and how a game is designed). There's a series of 3rd person shooters called SOCOM (you may have heard of them). The game is designed for online, multiplayer battles where you play as a group to achieve an objective. Most people play the game on teams of two or more people at least, probably four or more for the most part. There are some people who like playing one on one but the majority of people like team play. What I'm saying is the game is designed for team play and in my opinion the one and one games suck because it's not designed for one on one. The maps are too big, you don't make use of the headset for communication, there's no team strategy in what is supposed to be a strategy based game. It's just like how WoW is designed for solo xp questing to max and FFXI is designed for group partying to kill mobs up to max. Two different game designs which affect how you play the game and what in my opinion is enjoyable.
This exactly how I feel and is why I oppose all these 'forced grouping' schemes the extreme groupers are advocationg. Grouping in MMORPGs should be organic and happen because people want to do stuff together. You start to force grouping on people and you only create more people who prefer to solo. Grouping should be about teamwork and community and not abour faster XP or 'epeen' loot.
I agree with you that grouping should be organic, but I COMPLETELY disagree that forced groupiing makes people want to play solo.
People play solo because that's what they enjoy. Whether it is for greed, antisocial, personal accomplishment, reward, enjoyment, convenience, or whatever else works for them. But I seriously doubt that the majority of soloer's are playing because they're rebelling against the idea of forced grouping.
You know what? I don't care if I'm a bad person for feeling the way I feel and liking what I like. I don't even care if it means I'm stupid, lazy, selfish, a newb, a boob, or any other insult anyone wants to throw at me. I like what I like and if I'm going to pay to play a game it has to be what I like. I like being able to log into a game knowing that it will be easy to get into a group because lots and lots of other people will be grouping all the time and needing more people for their groups or willing to join my group. I know, I'm horrible. I like it when the groups I'm in work together, it doesn't have to be over-the-top, ridiculous coordination required, just...you know, a little teamwork. Like if we don't work together we'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, I'm showing my true colors. Spawn of Satan and all that, I know. I like a little slower pace to things so that there's time for a witty comment or two. A joke here and there. Maybe even a little roleplay if someone is into that. A little communication between the group members is what I'm getting at. So I don't like constant hack and slash with no pauses. I don't even care if the people I'm grouped with are not witty or funny, I take the good with the bad. God, I know, I'm terrible. I like a game that has so much grouping going on all the time that I don't have to pre-schedule a simple experience group or cajole people to hang out with me even though they know they could do things faster solo. Pretty damn selfish of me, it's true. But I don't care, I embrace my selfishness, that's how scummy I really am. When someone tells me I can group all I want in any game if I'm willing to just go group with myself I think they are being illogical. But that's probably just because I'm a bullheaded ignoramous. This solo grouping thing has never really satisfied me but I know it's just because I'm being stubborn. So whatever. I'm a bad person and I know it. And I don't care. I like casual grouping. I want a game that gives people a reason to group so that I can just log in and hook up with people (yes, random pug people, <gasp>) any time I feel like it. Yeah, that's right, any damn time the whim strikes me I want to be able to find a group. I don't want to have to schedule it in advance. I don't want to have to drag people away from what they are doing to come group with me. I don't want to have to join some random guild just for the hope of having some people to hang out with. I want groups and grouping to be so common that I can just casually drop into the game and join or form a group at any time. So the truth is out. Now you all know what a disgusting, horrible, petty, little man I am. And I don't care.
Well put. I understand where you're coming from and I agree again. I too enjoy being able to log in and find many others needing group members and people LFG and me being able to join one easily. I like PUGs as well and that's the way Ive always leveled and I've always enjoyed it. Maybe we're just sick people, you could be right...
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction. So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
I can make no sense of why my main point is being ignored to I'll try to put it more bluntly:
I can play an MMORPG without getting involved in any sort of combat for months and months. So I'm saying MMORPGs are *more than combat*.
I'm subscribed to several MMORPGs at all times, and in most of them I don't fight... like, *at all*. I don't tank, I don't heal, I don't do damage. I don't even swear or wish ill to any PC or NPC! So how is this like playing football?
Your example has to do strictly with combat and shows a general disregard of my main point. So much so that I even doubt you've actually read my whole post.
Congradulations! You represent one of two roles in American Football, the Quarterback or the Offensive Lineman. I forgot to mention that support roles also fit with the Offensive Lineman role, because these guys protect more than just the Quarterback, they protect whoever they're assigned to in a play, just like a support character like a cleric or bard would protect teammates with buffs and healing.
Personally, I believe you resemble Offensive Lineman, and inside an mmorpg, you resemble a bard from the game I used to play, Silkroad Online (but don't play it, the game has been lost to bot infestation and terrible GM support). You say that you don't tank, heal, or do damage. That leave only one option: buffing teammates with various bonuses to defenses, mana increases, stat upgrades, etc. That fits the Offensive Lineman perspective well, for you help protect teammates and watch over their well-being. You could also be a quaterback, that role could fit here as well, but I would bet money on the Offensive Lineman.
The whole reason why I compare sports to mmorpgs is because I compare sports to mmorpgs that are based on roles in teams. I love them, but this is where grouping can be difficult (and what so many of you extremist soloists get wrong). If you do not have all the roles neccessary for a team to thrive, things can get tricky. In a football game, how long would it take for the QB to be sacked if he didn't have the offensive lineman to protect him? Likewise, in an mmorpg, if you do not have support classes on your team, then the team will not benefit (or even survive). That is why grouping can be difficult. So, personally, I don't think soloists should be able to level up faster than groupies. I think everyone should level up at the same pace, but the gear is another story. I think gear should power you character up depending on your style of playing. For example, a soloist gets a chestplate that has bonus defense increases. Meanwhile, a groupie gets the same chestplate, but it gives weaker defense bonuses, but it has the added enhancement that the wearer of the chestplate receives extra healing from healing spells, so clerics can help you out more. Likewise, gear in football is different too. QB chestplates don't cover as much as the other chestplates, but that's so the QB has added mobility and more ease at throwing the ball. A Lineman's chestplate (both offensive and defensive) needs to cover more, since they will see alot of confrontation with other tough guys. The gear had to be different to suit the different roles and styles, both in football and mmorpgs.
P.S. Go Oakland Raiders!!! By the way Greenie, I don't really mind the Jaguars (since I ended up with David Garrand on that season when he was on fire in Fantasy Football). Also, hopefully that OL we picked up from your team is good, because we really need a much improved OL soon...
This exactly how I feel and is why I oppose all these 'forced grouping' schemes the extreme groupers are advocationg. Grouping in MMORPGs should be organic and happen because people want to do stuff together. You start to force grouping on people and you only create more people who prefer to solo. Grouping should be about teamwork and community and not abour faster XP or 'epeen' loot.
I agree with you that grouping should be organic, but I COMPLETELY disagree that forced groupiing makes people want to play solo.
People play solo because that's what they enjoy. Whether it is for greed, antisocial, personal accomplishment, reward, enjoyment, convenience, or whatever else works for them. But I seriously doubt that the majority of soloer's are playing because they're rebelling against the idea of forced grouping.
I agree with both posts here. Teamwork and community is what should make up grouping, not faster XP (or slower XP because you have people watching over your well-being) and whatever loot comes. I still believe the whole problem could be solve easiest if we have more exclusively solo games and more exclusively group games. In these group games, you can hire npc helpers if you find yourself short on help, but don't expect these npc helpers to be more useful than real life people. And, if there be games that has soloing and grouping, well, read my previous post for my explanation on this (and to read a funny post that proves a good point).
I like group games better, but I do realize that soloists need their games too. I like separate style games best, but after careful observation of these posts, I now think it's possible to do a solo/group game, but certain elements and rules need apply here to balance everything out.
P.S. Go Oakland Raiders!!! By the way Greenie, I don't really mind the Jaguars (since I ended up with David Garrand on that season when he was on fire in Fantasy Football). Also, hopefully that OL we picked up from your team is good, because we really need a much improved OL soon...
Khalif has the talent to be a top tackle year in and year out he just cannot get his head on straight. Drinking issues, work ethic, and I don't know what else is wrong with him. Many fans were happy when we got him but soured after he had altercations with dui's one after another. I hope he gets his shit together because I don't personally like watching people fail due to illness, disease, etc.
If he plays to his potential that side of your O-line will be very good and McFadden should have a huge season.
Comments
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
You're not "grouped" with people just because they are on the same server.
You are not required to cooperate with each other to achieve objectives. That's what's fun adn challenging for me.
MMORPGs are GAMES , like basketball is a game.
MMORPGs are NOT like the real world. If they were, you would not respawn.
Easy to say, when yuou're asking me to give up my group game and play your solo game.
You're getting what you want, and I am not.
World of Warcraft is the perfect game for you.
It only takes about 2 hours to get to level 10, and once you do you can do nothing but group dungeons that require 5 players to do!
These dungeons offer better rewards and more money then your standard quests, and because the mobs are more challenging you actually earn more experience points faster because of the group bonus and rate at which you kill them!
You can do NOTHING but these group dungeons all the way to the level cap, and there are so many you'll only have to do the same one a few times before moving on to the next one.
Then once you get to the maximum level there are Heroic modes for the dungeons! These offer additional challenges and thus better loot. They require a lot more effort and skill though, so the rewards are totally worth it!
Sounds like the perfect game for you! The grouping is all about playing your role and fufilling that role to it's maximum potential!
Except that World Of Warcraft sucks.... and is there anything stoping you from going to dungeons you couldn't solo at your level and wiping them off after you're higher levels? With the exception of end-game content any of these dungeons you can come back to I believe. Your character has progressed through your solo play, you get to see his progression and all the content of the dungeon by soloing it. Sounds like WOW is good for you too is it not? Or is it the exclusion of loot drops that you have a problem with?
Because through the various threads soloer's have tried to maintain it's not loot or rewards that they are upset about but not getting to see all the content.
So the love of god stop the sports references they are totally off base.
Jesus that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with MMORPGs.
Sports games based on TEAMS are like MMORPGs that require groups.
It is EXACTLY the same.
It's FUN because you're part of a team.
Playing Basketball when you have to block, and pass, and shoot, is MUCH more fun than just shooting baskets.
But people don't play basketball to exclude you from shooting baskets.
Playinjg in a group when you ahve to tank, heal, CC, and nuke, is MUCH more fun that just soloing mobs. BUt people aren't groupoing to stop you from soloing.
You think they're doing it to stop you from somethign, but they are doing it because TEAM play is fun.
But TEAM play is not fun, if there's no REASON to do it, because the RULES are changed to make it irrelevant.
If you can score points in a basketball game solo, NO NEED FOR A TEAM.
IF you can solo the dungeon, NO NEED FOR A GROUP.
I think that you're misunderstanding what an MMORPG truly is. It's not a team based game like TF2, CS, CoD4, etc. An MMORPG is a community game.
When you play an MMORPG, you're part of a community. You're already "grouped", in a sense, with the people on your server because you're all playing together, on the same server, and can interact with one another.
Now, unlike a sports game, the goals in an MMORPG are much broader and you have various ways to accomplish them. Some of those ways require other people, some of those ways do not.
Just like in the real world, you live as a part of a community and some things that you do require other people and some things do not.
MMORPGs are not sports games, they are community games which attempt to emulate the real world by allowing thousands of people to interact with each other.
You're not "grouped" with people just because they are on the same server.
You are not required to cooperate with each other to achieve objectives. That's what's fun adn challenging for me.
MMORPGs are GAMES , like basketball is a game.
MMORPGs are NOT like the real world. If they were, you would not respawn.
You are "grouped" with people on your server because your objective is to play the game.
Again, MMORPGs are community games. Just like real world communities you have an option to group up with other people. MMORPGs are NOT like the real world, you're right. Rather they attempt to EMULATE the real world by allowing people to do certain things.
BTW, poker is a GAME also, what's your point?
No I'm saying that for someone who really likes to group is offers more content for group play then most other MMORPGs and it's more polished and better tuned.
If you got your head out of your ass you'd see that skipping the dungeons to go back and solo them later is exactly what I have been saying is wrong with MMORPG communities and why this argument doesn't even matter becuase it's all about how you choose to play the game.
MMORPGs are really not at all like sports games like hockey or basketball. Maybe a game like Team Fortress 2 is - actually I wouldn't even agree on that one, but anyway, at least there's some similarity. In full-blown MMORPGs, there is not. If the game of basketball itself included things like buying and selling gear, coming up with new ball designs, going out and having fun with friends, or, I don't know, getting yourself in gambling debt with teammates, then the analogy would be more sound. But those things are not part of the game of basketball, they're part of life that's related to basketball. There's an obvious distinction.
So if you really find MMORPGs similar to team sports games, then I'd say you're holding a pretty narrow perspective of what an MMORPG is. I really would not want to play an MMORPG like that, and thank goodness the genre doesn't roll that way. There are a lot of people playing MMORPGs who are not even that interested in the combat part of the game. Can you imagine a player who participates in a basketball team and does not play basketball? No. It's because basketball consists of just that - playing ball. Whereas there are many many aspects of an MMORPG that's not made of combat.
When it comes to the combat aspect of MMORPGS and they are based around group play, it IS like a team sport. Now if you want to say that crafting has nothing in common with it, socializing, exploring, than sure I can agree with that. If your complaint is there isn't enough to do outside of combat in games today, then I can agree with that. But to say that there is no similarity in a team sport and games which are combative by nature, I have to disagree.
But if you've ever 8 vs 8 in daoc, you'd know that the team play mattered. Hell even 4 vs a zerg your "team's" or "group's" performance mattered.
As for your stretch on basketball and gear, etc.. Techinically millions of dollars are spent every year to create better shoes, better rims, better basketballs, and better courts. So there is technically an upgrade component via gear that affects the game. Same with golf, tennis, football... not really sure where you were going with it, I'm just poking a little fun at it.
No I'm saying that for someone who really likes to group is offers more content for group play then most other MMORPGs and it's more polished and better tuned.
If you got your head out of your ass you'd see that skipping the dungeons to go back and solo them later is exactly what I have been saying is wrong with MMORPG communities and why this argument doesn't even matter becuase it's all about how you choose to play the game.
Upset much? I guess it didn't occur to you that I only started reading from about 2 pages back because there are so many long threads about solo vs. grouping I don't want to read every bit of all of them, and I might possibly have not known your position on it, rather I just responded to one post I had an interest in?? No of course not that couldn't be the case,, I must have my head up my ass.......
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
Nope - by grouping with 3 other people for average PvE mobs, you get 25% of the XP and loot, and only have a 1 in 4 chance of winning a roll for an item you want. Grouping for a quest is practicable, though, since nobody shares quest xp and you get the full quest rewards you are entitled to when the quest is completed, but you'll still have to put up with the conditions described above for standard mobs encountered along the way. I prefer groups that last one quest and then promptly break up, personally.
The standard rationale for grouping is, of course, that you're killing mobs faster - but I'd prefer all the loot, full xp and the pleasure of not listening to the blather of people I'll never see again. XP may not be as fast, but it's fast enough for me, it's more profitable - especially given that any resources/nodes I encounter are all mine to gather - and there's a hell of a lot less arguments and whinging over drops, too.
The middle linebacker would generally be the leader on defense and one of the safeties the lieutenant.
Defensive line would be tanks, linebackers and secondary your dps.
Pretty much the whole defense, and skill players on offense would have a dual role as Crowd control due to motion, playaction, alignment as well.
Hopefully my Jaguars will rebound this year and have a respectable season.
When it comes to the combat aspect of MMORPGS and they are based around group play, it IS like a team sport. Now if you want to say that crafting has nothing in common with it, socializing, exploring, than sure I can agree with that. If your complaint is there isn't enough to do outside of combat in games today, then I can agree with that. But to say that there is no similarity in a team sport and games which are combative by nature, I have to disagree.
But if you've ever 8 vs 8 in daoc, you'd know that the team play mattered. Hell even 4 vs a zerg your "team's" or "group's" performance mattered.
As for your stretch on basketball and gear, etc.. Techinically millions of dollars are spent every year to create better shoes, better rims, better basketballs, and better courts. So there is technically an upgrade component via gear that affects the game. Same with golf, tennis, football... not really sure where you were going with it, I'm just poking a little fun at it.
I think you did not quite understand what I was saying there. So if you're really poking fun at anything, yyou got a rebound comingyour way
With my example about "gear, etc.", I was drawing attention to the other spheres of an MMORPG that is not part of combat - like the economy sphere, the socializing sphere. Those sphere are *built into* the game in an MMORPG, not *around* it. Whereas in basketball, the shoes, rims, balls etc. are not part of the game itself at all. They're built *around* it. They're more akin to gaming computers, controllers, or even expanded universe stuff like books, etc. They're part of the *industry* as a whole, but not the game itself, whereas stuff like trading, crafting, getting and selling gear, socializing are part of the MMORP games themselves. More clearly, you do these things *inside* the game, so that while you're doing them, you're playing the game. When you buy a basketball, is that playing basketball? No.
Of course the group combat mechanics part of an MMORPG can be likened to team sports a bit more. The keyword there is, "part". That was my point - that combat gameplay is not and should not be all an MMORPG provides. And yes, the games today have quite some stuff to do outside of combat and I'm doing them in several I'm subscribed to. Heck, I've played some MMOs for months without ever getting into serious combat at all. So, was I not playing an MMORPG?
Nope - by grouping with 3 other people for average PvE mobs, you get 25% of the XP and loot, and only have a 1 in 4 chance of winning a roll for an item you want. Grouping for a quest is practicable, though, since nobody shares quest xp and you get the full quest rewards you are entitled to when the quest is completed, but you'll still have to put up with the conditions described above for standard mobs encountered along the way. I prefer groups that last one quest and then promptly break up, personally.
The standard rationale for grouping is, of course, that you're killing mobs faster - but I'd prefer all the loot, full xp and the pleasure of not listening to the blather of people I'll never see again. XP may not be as fast, but it's fast enough for me, it's more profitable - especially given that any resources/nodes I encounter are all mine to gather - and there's a hell of a lot less arguments and whinging over drops, too.
So your style of solo play is based on an anti-social and greedy premise. Not that it's wrong, I'm just trying to clarify because of the myriad of arguments out right now about solo play, social aspects, and loot whoring.
IDK as I dont use it but my friend lost TF2 on steam and he was very pissed off.
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
I can make no sense of why my main point is being ignored to I'll try to put it more bluntly:
I can play an MMORPG without getting involved in any sort of combat for months and months. So I'm saying MMORPGs are *more than combat*.
I'm subscribed to several MMORPGs at all times, and in most of them I don't fight... like, *at all*. I don't tank, I don't heal, I don't do damage. I don't even swear or wish ill to any PC or NPC! So how is this like playing football?
Your example has to do strictly with combat and shows a general disregard of my main point. So much so that I even doubt you've actually read my whole post.
You know what? I don't care if I'm a bad person for feeling the way I feel and liking what I like. I don't even care if it means I'm stupid, lazy, selfish, a newb, a boob, or any other insult anyone wants to throw at me. I like what I like and if I'm going to pay to play a game it has to be what I like.
I like being able to log into a game knowing that it will be easy to get into a group because lots and lots of other people will be grouping all the time and needing more people for their groups or willing to join my group. I know, I'm horrible.
I like it when the groups I'm in work together, it doesn't have to be over-the-top, ridiculous coordination required, just...you know, a little teamwork. Like if we don't work together we'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, I'm showing my true colors. Spawn of Satan and all that, I know.
I like a little slower pace to things so that there's time for a witty comment or two. A joke here and there. Maybe even a little roleplay if someone is into that. A little communication between the group members is what I'm getting at. So I don't like constant hack and slash with no pauses. I don't even care if the people I'm grouped with are not witty or funny, I take the good with the bad. God, I know, I'm terrible.
I like a game that has so much grouping going on all the time that I don't have to pre-schedule a simple experience group or cajole people to hang out with me even though they know they could do things faster solo. Pretty damn selfish of me, it's true. But I don't care, I embrace my selfishness, that's how scummy I really am.
When someone tells me I can group all I want in any game if I'm willing to just go group with myself I think they are being illogical. But that's probably just because I'm a bullheaded ignoramous. This solo grouping thing has never really satisfied me but I know it's just because I'm being stubborn.
So whatever. I'm a bad person and I know it. And I don't care. I like casual grouping. I want a game that gives people a reason to group so that I can just log in and hook up with people (yes, random pug people, <gasp>) any time I feel like it. Yeah, that's right, any damn time the whim strikes me I want to be able to find a group. I don't want to have to schedule it in advance. I don't want to have to drag people away from what they are doing to come group with me. I don't want to have to join some random guild just for the hope of having some people to hang out with. I want groups and grouping to be so common that I can just casually drop into the game and join or form a group at any time.
So the truth is out. Now you all know what a disgusting, horrible, petty, little man I am. And I don't care.
I got ya. But I still believe that although shoes are built around the game they are used in the game. They are technically upgrades. But that's just nitpicking and semantics more than anything. On to the real point.
I agree and UO, which I never played, or EvE are perfect examples. You can be an industrialist, miner, politician, and more in EVE and never see combat. You are playing the game, and you are interacting with other players. Unless you are part of a corporation who is working towards a goal together you are not part of a team, but you affect the game world nonetheless.
More games do need to cater to these roles and it's my opinion that when WoW came out they got away from these ideals. As an example,, Crafters in daoc were like gold, until ToA made them useless because dropped items were much more valuable than player crafted gear. Drops, destroyed that aspect of the game.
Bind on equip,pickup also destroys any chance of traders, marketers, etc. Because half the stuff you get you can't sell or give away and players are forced to go on raids if they want those items.
Although I am going to play Aion for the time being, I'm really hoping for Earthrise to be successful. Even Darkfall had the knowledge that people want more than just combat in a game, even if their release and everything is as horrid as people say.
Instead of just creating loot dropped items; resources should be the major focus of any encounter in my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, it's just how I feel about it.
This exactly how I feel and is why I oppose all these 'forced grouping' schemes the extreme groupers are advocationg. Grouping in MMORPGs should be organic and happen because people want to do stuff together. You start to force grouping on people and you only create more people who prefer to solo. Grouping should be about teamwork and community and not abour faster XP or 'epeen' loot.
Yeah, and that's something that some people don't seem to get. Just because a game has some grouping it doesn't neccesarily mean that it's the type of grouping experience that will satisfy a group oriented player.
I haven't played CoH but I played Guild Wars some and even though you can group with other players for some of the missions it's not a very enjoyable experience for the most part. It's generally just--RUN RUN RUN, KILL KILL KILL, done, the instance ends and hardly a word was exchanged between the members of the group. And in most cases there was hardly any sort of cooperative effort required so it felt more like soloing near other people than like grouping.
At this point in time, for me, the lack of good, friendly grouping is killing this genre more than anything else (for me I said). I may talk about the <Dream Game> from time to time. I may talk about sandboxy stuff. I may talk about improved AI. But putting aside dreams for the future, the thing that is making games RIGHT NOW completely unattractive to me is the lack of good grouping.
It's really depressing for me. I'm not trying to convert anyone because that can't be done. I'm just saying how it is for me.
Amen brother. It's not about trying to make every game the same because you like it that way, it's about trying to find a game that you (we) like. All I want is a few group oriented games to choose from and ill be happy (one good one would be nice). All the other ones I could care less about and they can be as solo friendly as they want. To each his own.
See this is what really get's me about guys like you... you wax so poetically about this and that but you do NOT understand, or even try to conceive that your issue is a 100% play style choice.
You could very easily, in a game such as World of Warcraft. Team up with a few friends, only play together through questing and running instanced dungeons to level your toons. You could vary your crafting professions to compliment each other and form your own little exchange economy.
If you find a group of like-minded players you could take your time and enjoy the journey while leveling 100% grouped up the entire time, helping each other in your defined group roles. Sure, lots/most of the quests would be quite simple if you approached them in a group 100% of the time, but in the end these are GAMES and they are designed for you, the player, to win.
It's like the PvP people who simply don't understand that in a truly "balanced" game you'd lose 50% of the time.
The only person who is "making" you rush to solo to the top as fast as possible is you. You are the power-gamer achiever type who can't slow down and smell the roses and make it a game about team-work and group fun. You can slow down the pulls in the dungeon and talk things over, either through a ventrillo or teamspeak or in the game. Hell use typing in the game instead of a chat client so it forces you to slow down and type a bit.
I could do EXACTLY what both you Ihmotepp and Neandrathel are describing in a game like World of Warcraft if I had a few friends that thought and felt the same way.
It's a choice. Sure you CAN solo-grind quests up to level 80 and skip all the group content. But it's a choice.
Don't you see that? There is NO such thing as FORCED SOLOing in a MMORPG. It doesn't exist.
There is no content in MMO I have ever played that doesn't let you group up with others if you want to.
"But it's not as efficient, I could do it much faster playing solo" well right there THAT is a choice YOU make to try and speed through the game and min/max power level.
Don't you see?
Yes, they have made solo play viable in modern MMOs but they have done nothing to discourage group play. It is YOU that is discouraging group play through your achiever, goal oriented, min/maxer hardcore power leveler mindset.
Don't you see?
I agree that what I'm talking about it a playstyle choice. As a matter of fact I think I made that quite clear in this post and every other post ive made on the subject.
Listen man, I understand where you're coming from. I realize that the option exists in a game such as WoW to level all the way up with a group and do everything with a group but there's a key point that I don't think is being made clear. When it's possible to level to the cap solo that means that the leveling content was designed for a soloer. What I'm looking for is a game that is designed to be completed as a group (leveling to the cap). There's a huge difference between the two games in my opinion. It has nothing to do with me worrying about what other people are doing. It has everything to do with the gameplay experience between the two.
Ideally, I'm looking for a game where the content is designed for groups. I don't like instances for every dungeon in the game so you can strike that off the list. I would like there to be solo content that I can do while LFG or when I've only got an hour to play. Hell, even a solo story arc and some solo endgame content would be cool.
I think what is failing to be seen here is that the way a game is designed greatly affects how it is played and how it is perceieved and enjoyed. I'll give you an example (and this is not in reference to solo vs. group content, it's an example for different ways to play a game and how a game is designed). There's a series of 3rd person shooters called SOCOM (you may have heard of them). The game is designed for online, multiplayer battles where you play as a group to achieve an objective. Most people play the game on teams of two or more people at least, probably four or more for the most part. There are some people who like playing one on one but the majority of people like team play. What I'm saying is the game is designed for team play and in my opinion the one and one games suck because it's not designed for one on one. The maps are too big, you don't make use of the headset for communication, there's no team strategy in what is supposed to be a strategy based game. It's just like how WoW is designed for solo xp questing to max and FFXI is designed for group partying to kill mobs up to max. Two different game designs which affect how you play the game and what in my opinion is enjoyable.
I agree with you that grouping should be organic, but I COMPLETELY disagree that forced groupiing makes people want to play solo.
People play solo because that's what they enjoy. Whether it is for greed, antisocial, personal accomplishment, reward, enjoyment, convenience, or whatever else works for them. But I seriously doubt that the majority of soloer's are playing because they're rebelling against the idea of forced grouping.
Well put. I understand where you're coming from and I agree again. I too enjoy being able to log in and find many others needing group members and people LFG and me being able to join one easily. I like PUGs as well and that's the way Ive always leveled and I've always enjoyed it. Maybe we're just sick people, you could be right...
Not quite, I personally believe sport games and mmorpgs can be similar in some points. Take American Football for instance:
1. The quarterback is the ultimate leader and commander in a team. He tells the plan to the team, calls audibles or time-outs as he (possibly she in the future?) sees fit. In an mmmorpg, that role is easy. It's whoever the leader of the team currently is. In a coordinated team (mostly based on guild members or friends), someone has to lead the group. And, like the quarterback, this particular leader in this example is an archer, for he watches from the back, coordinates, and sticks an arrow in whoever just happens to be the enemy.
2. The offensive linemen can be resembled by tankers suited towards defense. Usually, it's nice to protect important members on a team that may require your assistance. So in an mmorpg, tankers can sometime play bodyguard roles. They watch over their leader, or important people like clerics, and make sure that the opposing team does not break them.
3. Running backs and Wide Receivers are offense players who usually make the touchdowns. In mmorpgs, these are any classes that are offense based. Wizards, tankers suited towards offense, basically anyone whose job is to deal the hurt.
4. Not quite sure what roles would the defense, but in mmorpgs, the defense resembles the enemy team that your team seeks to defeat.
So actually yes, some sport games and mmorpgs do have similar points. They both have team based games (on the mmorpg side, there can be solo games). And both have games in which roles play important parts inside a team.
Also, I support group gaming in which you have roles that are vital to a team's survival.
I can make no sense of why my main point is being ignored to I'll try to put it more bluntly:
I can play an MMORPG without getting involved in any sort of combat for months and months. So I'm saying MMORPGs are *more than combat*.
I'm subscribed to several MMORPGs at all times, and in most of them I don't fight... like, *at all*. I don't tank, I don't heal, I don't do damage. I don't even swear or wish ill to any PC or NPC! So how is this like playing football?
Your example has to do strictly with combat and shows a general disregard of my main point. So much so that I even doubt you've actually read my whole post.
Congradulations! You represent one of two roles in American Football, the Quarterback or the Offensive Lineman. I forgot to mention that support roles also fit with the Offensive Lineman role, because these guys protect more than just the Quarterback, they protect whoever they're assigned to in a play, just like a support character like a cleric or bard would protect teammates with buffs and healing.
Personally, I believe you resemble Offensive Lineman, and inside an mmorpg, you resemble a bard from the game I used to play, Silkroad Online (but don't play it, the game has been lost to bot infestation and terrible GM support). You say that you don't tank, heal, or do damage. That leave only one option: buffing teammates with various bonuses to defenses, mana increases, stat upgrades, etc. That fits the Offensive Lineman perspective well, for you help protect teammates and watch over their well-being. You could also be a quaterback, that role could fit here as well, but I would bet money on the Offensive Lineman.
The whole reason why I compare sports to mmorpgs is because I compare sports to mmorpgs that are based on roles in teams. I love them, but this is where grouping can be difficult (and what so many of you extremist soloists get wrong). If you do not have all the roles neccessary for a team to thrive, things can get tricky. In a football game, how long would it take for the QB to be sacked if he didn't have the offensive lineman to protect him? Likewise, in an mmorpg, if you do not have support classes on your team, then the team will not benefit (or even survive). That is why grouping can be difficult. So, personally, I don't think soloists should be able to level up faster than groupies. I think everyone should level up at the same pace, but the gear is another story. I think gear should power you character up depending on your style of playing. For example, a soloist gets a chestplate that has bonus defense increases. Meanwhile, a groupie gets the same chestplate, but it gives weaker defense bonuses, but it has the added enhancement that the wearer of the chestplate receives extra healing from healing spells, so clerics can help you out more. Likewise, gear in football is different too. QB chestplates don't cover as much as the other chestplates, but that's so the QB has added mobility and more ease at throwing the ball. A Lineman's chestplate (both offensive and defensive) needs to cover more, since they will see alot of confrontation with other tough guys. The gear had to be different to suit the different roles and styles, both in football and mmorpgs.
P.S. Go Oakland Raiders!!! By the way Greenie, I don't really mind the Jaguars (since I ended up with David Garrand on that season when he was on fire in Fantasy Football). Also, hopefully that OL we picked up from your team is good, because we really need a much improved OL soon...
I agree with you that grouping should be organic, but I COMPLETELY disagree that forced groupiing makes people want to play solo.
People play solo because that's what they enjoy. Whether it is for greed, antisocial, personal accomplishment, reward, enjoyment, convenience, or whatever else works for them. But I seriously doubt that the majority of soloer's are playing because they're rebelling against the idea of forced grouping.
I agree with both posts here. Teamwork and community is what should make up grouping, not faster XP (or slower XP because you have people watching over your well-being) and whatever loot comes. I still believe the whole problem could be solve easiest if we have more exclusively solo games and more exclusively group games. In these group games, you can hire npc helpers if you find yourself short on help, but don't expect these npc helpers to be more useful than real life people. And, if there be games that has soloing and grouping, well, read my previous post for my explanation on this (and to read a funny post that proves a good point).
I like group games better, but I do realize that soloists need their games too. I like separate style games best, but after careful observation of these posts, I now think it's possible to do a solo/group game, but certain elements and rules need apply here to balance everything out.
Khalif has the talent to be a top tackle year in and year out he just cannot get his head on straight. Drinking issues, work ethic, and I don't know what else is wrong with him. Many fans were happy when we got him but soured after he had altercations with dui's one after another. I hope he gets his shit together because I don't personally like watching people fail due to illness, disease, etc.
If he plays to his potential that side of your O-line will be very good and McFadden should have a huge season.