People who want Bioware to make a sandbox game of any type are complete toolboxes. Maybe they should go ask Infitiy Ward to go make a simulation racer ala Gran Turismo or ID Software to make a fighter game as good as Soul Caliber.
Bioware makes traditional linear RPGs. That's ALL they' EVER made. Why would you imbeciles expect them to make something different. EVEN BETTER, why would you want them to make a sandbox? They've never done it before maybe they're absolutely TERRIBLE at it (god knows the racing and shooting minigames in KOTOR were pretty bad). Instead of wasting your worthless breath on Bioware, the sandbox community would be better served by hoping Besethda makes a game that caters to their needs. You know...those little ol' folks that ALWAYS make the sandbox RPGs.
And just for the record, I think Infinity Ward would make a great Gran Turismo. Wait no...no I don't.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be. But, not exclusive. Why not bash the OP for asking people then if you assume thats what they are saying. Still, you havnet answered the OP, only your personal opinion of other peoples answers.
So Who are you talking to? What people? And who asked you for your opinion of them? And why would your opinion be worth anything? At least theirs is telling Bioware how they could get a few more people. However unlikely. And they don't start attacking people until others act like they speak on behalf of Bioware and attack them first. For all you know, the other parts of the game could be everything your bashing, And the sandbox crowd may like that part. So far we know its not a simulation, and it has kotor like story. Bioware has even mentioned the elder game of swg. uh-oh.
Also, What makes you think anyone cares about your off-topic opinions that violate the rules of this forum? Do you think you are accomplishing something, other than making this community here look bad? You can't even seem to handle someones opinion, when someone else ASKED FOR IT. You didnt like their answer...or couldnt handle it it seems.
Maybe someone should give you some advice. My opinion is, you need it. Your nobody here. Just like all of us. A nothing. Just another opinion that won't effect anything. Why act like your are?
See, anyone can do it.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
People who want Bioware to make a sandbox game of any type are complete toolboxes. Maybe they should go ask Infitiy Ward to go make a simulation racer ala Gran Turismo or ID Software to make a fighter game as good as Soul Caliber.
Bioware makes traditional linear RPGs. That's ALL they' EVER made. Why would you imbeciles expect them to make something different. EVEN BETTER, why would you want them to make a sandbox? They've never done it before maybe they're absolutely TERRIBLE at it (god knows the racing and shooting minigames in KOTOR were pretty bad). Instead of wasting your worthless breath on Bioware, the sandbox community would be better served by hoping Besethda makes a game that caters to their needs. You know...those little ol' folks that ALWAYS make the sandbox RPGs.
And just for the record, I think Infinity Ward would make a great Gran Turismo. Wait no...no I don't.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
People who want Bioware to make a sandbox game of any type are complete toolboxes. Maybe they should go ask Infitiy Ward to go make a simulation racer ala Gran Turismo or ID Software to make a fighter game as good as Soul Caliber.
Bioware makes traditional linear RPGs. That's ALL they' EVER made. Why would you imbeciles expect them to make something different. EVEN BETTER, why would you want them to make a sandbox? They've never done it before maybe they're absolutely TERRIBLE at it (god knows the racing and shooting minigames in KOTOR were pretty bad). Instead of wasting your worthless breath on Bioware, the sandbox community would be better served by hoping Besethda makes a game that caters to their needs. You know...those little ol' folks that ALWAYS make the sandbox RPGs.
And just for the record, I think Infinity Ward would make a great Gran Turismo. Wait no...no I don't.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
Your interpereting sandbox, as a pure sandbox/simulation mmorpg. there are many types. more often than not, they're sandbox elements. Which can be found in many games. Vanguard has an open world and freedom. Its not sandbox mmo. See?So I disagree with your interpertation. I may not agree with people who are asking for things ever seeing them in this game. But, Im not gonna act like Im somebody special, because i dont really know either. And I don't assume because I'm right I can forget that Im a guest here, and am above the rules. Whether your right or wrong or im bitter or crazy...you're still nobody here. Just like me.Just like the people you respond to.
your point needs to follow the forum rules. If you can't do that..why are you telling people what they should do? No one is gonna listen to you anyway.
obviously, I don't care what you think of me.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
People who want Bioware to make a sandbox game of any type are complete toolboxes. Maybe they should go ask Infitiy Ward to go make a simulation racer ala Gran Turismo or ID Software to make a fighter game as good as Soul Caliber.
Bioware makes traditional linear RPGs. That's ALL they' EVER made. Why would you imbeciles expect them to make something different. EVEN BETTER, why would you want them to make a sandbox? They've never done it before maybe they're absolutely TERRIBLE at it (god knows the racing and shooting minigames in KOTOR were pretty bad). Instead of wasting your worthless breath on Bioware, the sandbox community would be better served by hoping Besethda makes a game that caters to their needs. You know...those little ol' folks that ALWAYS make the sandbox RPGs.
And just for the record, I think Infinity Ward would make a great Gran Turismo. Wait no...no I don't.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
Your interpereting sandbox, as a pure sandbox/simulation mmorpg. there are many types. more often than not, they're sandbox elements. Which can be found in many games. Vanguard has an open world and freedom. Its not sandbox mmo. See?So I disagree with your interpertation. I may not agree with people who are asking for things ever seeing them in this game. But, Im not gonna act like Im somebody special, because i dont really know either. And I don't assume because I'm right I can forget that Im a guest here, and am above the rules. Whether your right or wrong or im bitter or crazy...you're still nobody here. Just like me.Just like the people you respond to.
your point needs to follow the forum rules. If you can't do that..why are you telling people what they should do? No one is gonna listen to you anyway.
It seems that over the last few months online there has been tons of rage over TOR, and the way the game is being designed; I.E. Story based not sandbox. My question to the community is why? Why are you dissapointed in the way the game is turning out. If you're a Star Wars Fan (the target audience) you'll be getting your favorite IP turned into an MMO; And not just any MMO one designed around story and intrigue with an engine that looks amazing and with characters that are fully voiced. If your a fan or RPGs, your getting a game designed by the single greatest company in the buisness (bioware) and are going to get the expirence of a life time. The only crowd that leaves are the WoW-esque MMO fans, who tend to like grind based gear gathering and repetitive instances (a niche already filled by WOW). And the SWG Vets (who are not, star wars fans in the strictest sense) who prefer well, SWG a games that already exists. So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
My sentiments exactly.
I played SWG alongside a guild that was eager to live within the Starwars Universe, I'm not what you would define as a person who lives and breaths Starwars but I enjoy what it has to offer, epic storyline with a universe to adventure through.
I along with others was disappointed once the game took a very different direction, it wasn't becuase of the changes per-se it was becuase of the lack of communication and the drastic way in which it happened, the game became something very different overnight and not something I had expected to play, so at that point it was a very alien game from that point on.
I had friends who where Starwars fanatics who quit within the first month before any changes had even been thought of, they where the ones who said to me "This is NOT Starwars" those where the ones that no matter what you gave them would never be happy, as they all had very different ideas of what a Starwars Universe should be.
Bioware has an outstanding catalogue of top notch RPG games, this alone should be proof enough to the Nay sayers/Doom-mongorers/Trolls that Bioware have a definate understanding of giving ppl an involving and immersive story/world for us to adventure within.
What I have seen and read so far has left me in no doubt that SWTOR will be an enjoyable adventure, I'm not concerned if it doesn't break any new ground within the MMO genre, I just want a good story that swallows me up and makes me forget about the world around me for a few hours, and over the years Bioware has managed to do that for me.
But the thing is, Bioware have been absolutely up-front and honest about these since day one; that the game would not be a sandbox, and would not be group dependant. They're not recent decisions, so I can't imagine that people are still feeling the sting of dashed hopes. So why continue to complain about them?
well, to be honest, I typically avoid the TOR forums, both here and the official ones. I try not to bash games that I don't play, or don't intend to play. I'm not a "troll"...I don't hang around making negative posts all day...I have better things to do.
HOWEVER, when someone ASKS, like the OP in this thread did, I have no problem piping up with my opinion. Posters in this thread should realise that the OP specifically ASKED for the opinion of those who dislike the direction that the game is apparently headed.
As you've stated, Bioware HAS been open and up-front about the design of the game so far. This completely invalidates the arguments of those who say "don't judge a game we know nothing about"...we have information, and we can form opinions based on that information.
However, after YEARS of wanting this game to happen, and spamming the Bioware forums asking for a "KOTOR MMORPG", having the game take this direction gives us PLENTY of reason to "feel the sting of dashed hopes". Many loooong threads were created with wonderful, wistful discussions about what we would love to see in this game...and NONE of that so far has actually made into the incarnation of that dream.
Yes, people are bitter. We asked for one thing, and were totally blown off in persuit of "Iconic Star-Warsy" gameplay that has more in common with Mass Effect Online than the game we all begged for.
Let me just pipe in and say that you are completely right in that your opinion was asked and you answered it. We all have our opinions on what constitutes a good game and this one just won't do it for you. You weren't trolling like so many like to do around here and I salute you.
In regards to the OP, this game isn't being hated on as much as you think. Watch any game in development and there are always a small contigent of people who aren't going to like it and make all kinds of stupid remarks. Those are the people you just have to point at and laugh.
My sentiments exactly. I played SWG alongside a guild that was eager to live within the Starwars Universe, I'm not what you would define as a person who lives and breaths Starwars but I enjoy what it has to offer, epic storyline with a universe to adventure through. I along with others was disappointed once the game took a very different direction, it wasn't becuase of the changes per-se it was becuase of the lack of communication and the drastic way in which it happened, the game became something very different overnight and not something I had expected to play, so at that point it was a very alien game from that point on. The only thing that kept me playing that game was my guild. Once they left I left. I had friends who where Starwars fanatics who quit within the first month before any changes had even been thought of, they where the ones who said to me "This is NOT Starwars" those where the ones that no matter what you gave them would never be happy, as they all had very different ideas of what a Starwars Universe should be. I wouldn't say that. The game had many things wrong with it that violated canon(melee dominating over range?),plus there was nothing heroic about it. When I watch Star Wars, I don't care about the guy who is a moisture farmer. The box said that I would get to live my own Star Wars Experience and the options available were shallow to say the least. I'm glad that there was a small group of people who got to live their dream of dancing in a cantina or playing a tailor, but for Bounty Hunters,Smugglers, and Commandos the game fell way short. Bioware has an outstanding catalogue of top notch RPG games, this alone should be proof enough to the Nay sayers/Doom-mongorers/Trolls that Bioware have a definate understanding of giving ppl an involving and immersive story/world for us to adventure within. What I have seen and read so far has left me in no doubt that SWTOR will be an enjoyable adventure, I'm not concerned if it doesn't break any new ground within the MMO genre, I just want a good story that swallows me up and makes me forget about the world around me for a few hours, and over the years Bioware has managed to do that for me. I hope you're right. It does sound like they are trying to break new ground with the emphasis of living a star wars story(which was a failed promise from SWG) so I hope that I'm not let down once again.
As I read through a lot of the posts on this topic, I see a lot of back and forth about the same subjects. Essentially what I've been able to glean from all of this is that there are several camps of MMO philosophy that all presumed too much and are now disappointed in one fashion or another with the choices made in the game's design so far.
________________________________________________
The 1st camp: The SWG Pre-CU Vets
The majoirity who are vocal seem to be most disappointed because it's not the 2nd coming of SWG Pre-CU that they somehow thought it would be, (a grossly unreasonable expectation for several reaosns, not the least of which is considering the development studio and publisher.)
The 2nd camp: The MMO Crowd
These folks are the ones disappointed with the 'linear-ness' (which seems ironic to ME as there are so few MMOs that are non-linear...)
The 3rd camp: The Bioware RPGers
These folks are the only 'happy' campers in the bunch, and are content to put their faith completely in Bioware to deliver the ultimate Star Wars MMO gaming experience.
________________________________________________
Each of these groups has something in common however; none of them are going to be happy with the game that TOR will be.
SWG Pre-CU Vets, (this is the camp I find myself in moreso than the other two, but I am not the typical 'disgruntled' Vet... usually : ) have a very hard time detaching from the fun they had in SWG Pre-CU. Think of it like this; You find a new restaurant you like, and they serve a meal that you find very much to your liking. You come by often and order your favorite meal and things are pretty good. Then, you come by the restaurant and see there's a 'Now Under New Management!' banner hanging outside. You sit down, order your favorite meal, and when it comes out, it looks the same, but tastes totally different. You realize that they've changed the recipe, and for that matter, the whole menu. Disappointed, you decide that you'll try and find a new restaurant, and hope that you'll see your favorite meal on the menu, and once in a while you do, but it's still not the same...
I think that I'm one of the few SWG Pre-CU Vets that has reconciled that I won't have that meal again, so I appreciate the fact that I had it and try to find something to like about other games and not hold them to standards that I know they haven't held themselves too. SWG Vets; believe it or not - Not EVERY Start Wars game is trying to shoot for the SWG 'Glory Days'. Most of the industry percieves Pre-CU SWG as a failure not to be repeated. Failure or not, I had an absolute BLAST while I was playing. I loved being able to do my own thing when, where, and how I saw fit. That is NOT what TOR is looking to be. I'll say that again; That is NOT what TOR will be.
To continue w/ the restaurant analogy from above, the MMO camp seem to want special-order every thing. They don't want anything on the menu as it is - even if they've never tried it. No this, extra that, could you bring this on the side, does this come with that on it? Despite the fact that the chef is going to do his best work if you let him prepare the meal the way he's trained to, they'll make a dozen special requests and then complain about the taste. Whereas if they'd ordered from the menu like a regular customer, they might have like the meal just fine, (though maybe not be blown away by it, but at least enjoyed it enough not to complain...)
The MMO folks seem to be precognitive somehow to be able to know that a game is not going to be to their liking before even trying it. Somehow, a game they've only heard about having this, that or the other feature, (or not having it,) is all they need to know to determine that a game is good or not. Because HOW features are implemented has NO bearing on anything right? If you're dead-set that TORs features are a absolute turn-off, regardless of waiting to see how the 'turn-off' features are implemented, (cause it might not be the end of the gaming world and the ruination of the genre believe it or not...) then wait for a trial of the game to come out, or try it on a friends' account. That way, you save yourself from looking foolish and rasing hell about something you have ZERO experience with.
The Bioware RPGers go to McDonald's and think to themselves, 'Well, everybody loves McDonald's French Fries, I bet they'd make awesome pizza too!' (I know, I know, select McDonald's do / did serve pizza... The point still stands; it isn't / wasn't that good.)
While Bioware definitely an absolutely FANTASTIC developer of RPGs, that doesn't automatically make them FANTASTIC MMORPG developers. Wait, I know what you're thinking, 'Well, Blizzard is another developer that had a portfolio of successful non-MMO games and look how they're MMO turned out?' Fair enough. Here's the thing though: Bioware isn't Blizzard. Just because one company had success in a genre they had no experience in, doesn't mean it holds true for every company that tries. Blizzard didn't have the constrains of developing an IP associated with 30+ years of historical pop-culture significance either. Cut Bioware some slack about developing the ultimate SW MMO game, and they may get lucky and make at least a good game.
Long post I know, and if you made it this far hopefully you'll be able to understand my opinion on the situation, though you may not agree.
And for the record, I hope Bioware has success in this market, so that they will have the confidence to make another go of it with an IP of their own one day.
EDIT: Further spelling & grammar corrections. (Shocking I know... I don't get them all everytime, but I get most, most of the time.)
As I read through a lot of the posts on this topic, I see a lot of back and forth about the same subjects. Essentially what I've been able to glean from all of this is that there are several camps of MMO philosophy that all presumed too much and are now disappointed in one fashion or another with the choices made in the game's design so far. ________________________________________________ The 1st camp: The SWG Pre-CU Vets The majoirity who are vocal seem to be most disappointed because it's not the 2nd coming of SWG Pre-CU that they somehow thought it would be, (a grossly unreasonable expectation for several reaosns, not the least of which is considering the development studio and publisher.)
The 2nd camp: The MMO Crowd These folks are the ones disappointed with the 'linear-ness' (which seems ironic to ME as there are so few MMOs that are non-linear...)
The 3rd camp: The Bioware RPGers These folks are the only 'happy' campers in the bunch, and are content to put their faith completely in Bioware to deliver the ultimate Star Wars MMO gaming experience. ________________________________________________
Each of these groups has something in common however; none of them are going to be happy with the game that TOR will be.
SWG Pre-CU Vets, (this is the camp I find myself in moreso than the other two, but I am not the typical 'disgruntled' Vet... usually : ) have a very hard time detaching from the fun they had in SWG Pre-CU. Think of it like this; You find a new restaurant you like, and they serve a meal that you find very much to your liking. You come by often and order your favorite meal and things are pretty good. Then, you come by the restaurant and see there's a 'Now Under New Management!' banner hanging outside. You sit down, order your favorite meal, and when it comes out, it looks the same, but tastes totally different. You realize that they've changed the recipe, and for that matter, the whole menu. Disappointed, you decide that you'll try and find a new restaurant, and hope that you'll see your favorite meal on the menu, and once in a while you do, but it's still not the same... I think that I'm one of the few SWG Pre-CU Vets that has reconciled that I won't have that meal again, so I appreciate the fact that I had it and try to find something to like about other games and not hold them to standards that I know they haven't held themselves too. SWG Vets; believe it or not - Not EVERY Start Wars game is trying to shoot for the SWG 'Glory Days'. Most of the industry percieves Pre-CU SWG as a failure not to be repeated. Failure or not, I had an absolute BLAST while I was playing. I loved being able to do my own thing when, where, and how I saw fit. That is NOT what TOR is looking to be. I'll say that again; That is NOT what TOR will be.
To continue w/ the restaurant analogy from above, the MMO camp seem to want special-order every thing. They don't want anything on the menu as it is - even if they've never tried it. No this, extra that, could you bring this on the side, does this come with that on it? Despite the fact that the chef is going to do his best work if you let him prepare the meal the way he's trained to, they'll make a dozen special requests and then complain about the taste. Whereas if they'd ordered from the menu like a regular customer, they might have like the meal just fine, (though maybe not be blown away by it, but at least enjoyed it enough not to complain...) The MMO folks seem to be precognitive somehow to be able to know that a game is not going to be to their liking before even trying it. Somehow, a game they've only heard about having this, that or the other feature, (or not having it,) is all they need to know to determine that a game is good or not. Because HOW features are implemented has NO bearing on anything right? If you're dead-set that TORs features are a absolute turn-off, regardless of waiting to see how the 'turn-off' features are implemented, (cause it might not be the end of the gaming world and the ruination of the genre believe it or not...) then wait for a trial of the game to come out, or try it on a friends' account. That way, you save yourself from looking foolish and rasing hell about something you have ZERO experience with.
The Bioware RPGers go to McDonald's and think to themselves, 'Well, everybody loves McDonald's French Fries, I bet they'd make awesome pizza too!' (I know, I know, select McDonald's do / did serve pizza... The point still stands; it isn't / wasn't that good.) While Bioware definitely an absolutely FANTASTIC developer of RPGs, that doesn't automatically make them FANTASTIC MMORPG developers. Wait, I know what you're thinking, 'Well, Blizzard is another developer that had a portfolio of successful non-MMO games and look how they're MMO turned out?' Fair enough. Here's the thing though: Bioware isn't Blizzard. Just because one company had success in a genre they had no experience in, doesn't mean it holds true for every company that tries. Blizzard didn't have the constrains of developing an IP associated with 30+ years of historical pop-culture significance either. Cut Bioware some slack about developing the ultimate SW MMO game, and they may get lucky and make at least a good game.
Long post I know, and if you made it this far hopefully you'll be able to understand my opinion on the situation, though you may not agree.
And for the record, I hope Bioware has success in this market, so that they will have the confidence to make another go of it with an IP of their own one day.
EDIT: Further spelling & grammar corrections. (Shocking I know... I don't get them all everytime, but I get most, most of the time.)
I don't think there is a poster here that doesn't understand where you are coming from. Nobody thinks that what SOE did was right and many like myself called out SOE for it. The problem people have with so many vets is the childish manner in which so many of them acted.When the NGE came around and all my friends left, I didn't jump up and down and threaten a lawsuit. I didn't spend my days on the forums in some crazy crusade to demand SOE to change the game back. I simply logged off and canceled my account. . Trolling the forums and demanding another company to give you your game back four years afterward is just insane. At some point you have to move on. There are far worse things that can happen to you in life than having your game taken away.
I don't want to be FORCED to be a "hero"....I don't want to be forced into a pre-designed "iconic" role
Then don't play the game.
I won't.
The game is set during the era of a massive war between the Republic and the Sith, and who do you expect to be?
The guy who sits on the sidelines and serves out cold Kool-Aid when both sides call a time-out?
Why not?
You don't have to be a hero, play Sith and you can be the conquering douchebag who kicks baby kittens and steals walking canes from the senior citizens of the Republic. I think the whole "It's on rails" argument is overblown. The cover systems shows you all the possible cover spots you have, it doesn't force you to go from one specific spot to the next. Did you expect to be able to take cover behind a space daisy or some Kath Hound turd?
Which means there's VERY little real-estate in the game, otherwise they'd need an entire team of people JUST to put a little icon in all the possible PRE DEFINED (which is the KEY here) cover spots in the game.
The story arcs are pre-defined. The cover spots for smugs are pre-defined. EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route (as explained in one of the very first DEV interviews).
The choices are an illusion. And how long do you think it will be before a web site pops up with all the story brances mapped out so that a given class can just jam down the shortest path, in what will basically amount to a different kind of grind??
You people are naive.
I think the term you're looking for is, "The smugs' cover spots are HIGHLIGHTED when you choose them." You're using the phrase 'pre-defined' to imply that everything has been decided for you, and anyone who's played a Bioware game knows that really isn't the case.
As far as having story branches mapped out, that's going to be totally unnecessary. The way in which Bioware handles conversation dialog makes story branch posting useless some moron out there doesn't understand 'Kill Granny for more darkside' and that the 'shut up and get to the point' option skips five scenes of dialog. Oh, and spoilers, I guess, but that's really more personal preference.
As far as choice being an illusion, "xplained in one of the very first DEV interviews" that "EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route" then I'd like to see a link to that journal, because in several other releases they've explained that your choices are important and have an impact on the story and your allies, and one of the times they point this out is in the new video they released. You knew that though, because that video is premiering the smuggler cover system as well. By they way, if you go back and watch that video, you'll notice the outline only appears where he leaves cover and AFTER the smug toon starts approaching the cover he's going to use, so the icon is actually a placeholder to show what your position looks like and NOT a big green "ok to hide here" sign.
I think before you start saying people are naive, you should do a little more research into your side of the argument.
you're reaching, and grasping at straws...but that's ok. I don't really expect much more from the TOR fanbot brigade, and I'm not spending my valuable time trying to argue with you. I learned months ago that to dare to speak out about the holy grail of games is inviting a torrent of this kind of responses, which only leads to multiple pages of wasted time.
And I've wasted enough of my time on SWTOR.
I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change the facts.
Edit:
"GFW: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge."
I don't understand how I was 'reaching', but you won't explain it because it was a vague insult and the best you can do. What I DO understand is that I was able to make my point without insulting anyone, and you pretty much act like you're superior because you've chosen to not play a game, and imply that the fans of SWTOR are some disorganized mass of naive morons.
As far as your example on SWTOR from the DEV interview, you've come tho THIS conclusion:
"EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route"
From this paragraph:
"GFW: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge."
You'll note that this quote also comes from the same interview:
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: One thing we don't want to do is NPC Pez dispensers, as I call them -- go over there, dispense a quest, and then go "vacuum-clean" a zone. We want to make sure you listen to NPCs, because choices matter. And that's really important.
I don't know where you've gotten 'pre-defined story" from "No Player Cities". I guess I'm not the one 'grasping at straws'.
If you think THAT was insulting, then you are too thin-skinned to be on the MMORPG.com forums, there buddy. Trust me, if I were going to insult you, I would do it in a way that left no question to the fact that I just fucking insulted you.
And actually, I draw my concluseions from the fucking PILE of information and reasons given that TOR won't be a "sandbox" game. It's funny how when someone complains that there's no sandbox in TOR, you people can quickly pull out quotes and evidence as to WHY, but then it suits you can then claim thatr evidence doesn't exist.
And this is another reason why I consider arguing on the TOR forums to be an utter waste of time...it's like a retarded merry-go-round, going round and round and getting nowhere. I can point out facts, and you will claim they don't exist...until of course you need them to back your little argument.
I read the title of the thread, but quickly noticed the absurd length of some of these comments so I have no idea what everyone is talking about.
However, my 2 cents: I love story in a game. I love Bioware games. I love a well crafted online experience. I hate fedex/kill xx creatures quests. I don't care about leveling much. Star Wars is a cool setting.
they could take the game off rails, and let let us be who we WANT to be.
I like the game on rails. When they create a story they do a good job. I want them to do what they have proven in the past to be experts at. One of the two of us will NOT get what they want. I'm guessing it's you and SWG is waiting on you to go back. I hated that game in every version. It sucked pre-cu and it sucked NGE.
I don't want to be FORCED to be a "hero"....I don't want to be forced into a pre-designed "iconic" role....I want a virtual Star Wars universe where I carve my OWN path, and make my own way.
Playing Aunt Beru is your idea of fun. It is not mine.
I want more to do than just "exciting Star-Warsy" combat.
There will be lots to do. Do some reseach instead of flaming and you'll see this.
A game with depth, and freedom, in other words.
This game will have depth, just not your definition of depth. The game will have freedom of choice in all the scenarios, they've already said this.
This is simply another step toward over-simplifying and consolising MMORPGs. Have you seen the Smuggler's cover system, for example?? It TELLS you with little icons where to take cover....you're on rails the whole time, with pre-designated courses of action.
This is much easier to code. plain and simple. You wont be getting this style of gameplay anywhere else, really if you don't like it there are other games. Please go to one of them. Those of us who thought SWG sucked, left to play elsewhere, now it's your turn.
Any choice is purely an illusion, and any there can be no freedom in this type of game. I am pretty much predicting that any space combat, if it's even included, will be more like Star Fox, or some other rail shooter.
I hope so, I loved Starfox. Was a blast to play.
Why the hate?? Because for years we speculated on how AWESOME it would be to have a Star Wars MMORPG set in the Old Republic era....only we were envisioning a REAL MMORPG, not a glorified console game.
By we you mean you and who? This is a REAL MMORPG, I'm looking forward to playing it. I'm sorry you're so butthurt about the whole thing.
We're pissed because there will NEVER be a true Star Wars MMORPG as a result of TOR. The potential is wasted.
Not catering to your desires does not make the game wasted. It is catering to my desires completely so far. I hope for great things from what I have seen. The movies just make it better and better in my opinion. Again I think you should find another game to wait on. Or maybe just go outside and enjoy nature for a while. You're butthurt over a game.
Because Fear leads to anger, anger leads to Hate and Hate leads to suffering.
Hate leads to TROLLING!
Hehe, I too do not understand the hate mongering on this board as of late. Did the other boards where flamers used to hang out finally just go dead cuz everyone had flamed each other to the point of insanity or what?
Seriously though, speculate all you want on which ever way you think this game is going to go. I think most of this comes down to those who like to point back to some thread from 3 years ago and say "SEE! Told ya it would FAIL!"
Sad day. Sad, sad, day when that is all you havbe to look forward in life. This game may end up being the big Teh Suk! So what? Who cares? You think someone will look at you being more the wiser cuz you said it would 2 years ago? You think BioWare will care of they have 300k subscribers and your puny little text on some web site calls it the dumbest singleplayer multiplayer game evah?
Hehe, this post is not pointing at any one individual. All of them whose sole purpose is to spout futile hate for a game based on no more information than a FANBOI has who states it will be the next comming of WoW ( note christian pun implied and intended ).
So, shall we coin the term of HAYTBOI on those who's fecal covered posts on Games to be released in over a year are no more based on factual information than those fanbois stating it will be the one and only?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
they could take the game off rails, and let let us be who we WANT to be. I like the game on rails. When they create a story they do a good job. I want them to do what they have proven in the past to be experts at. One of the two of us will NOT get what they want. I'm guessing it's you and SWG is waiting on you to go back. I hated that game in every version. It sucked pre-cu and it sucked NGE. I think I hear your X-Box calling. I don't want to be FORCED to be a "hero"....I don't want to be forced into a pre-designed "iconic" role....I want a virtual Star Wars universe where I carve my OWN path, and make my own way. Playing Aunt Beru is your idea of fun. It is not mine. It's not about you. It's about every potential player of the game, and their potential freedom to play THEIR way. What you are saying here is "it's fine for me, no one else matters". How predictably typical. I want more to do than just "exciting Star-Warsy" combat. There will be lots to do. Do some reseach instead of flaming and you'll see this. I have, actually. I follow every little bit of info that's released about this game. I was one of the first 200 people to sign up at SWTOR.com on the day it opened. I don't make uneducated assumptions. A game with depth, and freedom, in other words. This game will have depth, just not your definition of depth. The game will have freedom of choice in all the scenarios, they've already said this. The "freedom" is an illusion. You have the "freedom" to choose from pre-defined story branches. If you were granted any degree of true freedom, the story would break because eventually someone would do something that the Devs did not predict, and their system would fail. The very nature of the game guarantees a lack of true freedom. This is simply another step toward over-simplifying and consolising MMORPGs. Have you seen the Smuggler's cover system, for example?? It TELLS you with little icons where to take cover....you're on rails the whole time, with pre-designated courses of action. This is much easier to code. plain and simple. You wont be getting this style of gameplay anywhere else, really if you don't like it there are other games. Please go to one of them. Those of us who thought SWG sucked, left to play elsewhere, now it's your turn. As I've stated, I won't be playing SWTOR. But I've also stated that as a "hater", it was MY opinion that was asked for in the OP (along with the rest of those who are discouraged by this game's direction). Any choice is purely an illusion, and any there can be no freedom in this type of game. I am pretty much predicting that any space combat, if it's even included, will be more like Star Fox, or some other rail shooter. I hope so, I loved Starfox. Was a blast to play. It was, for a console game. But this is an MMORPG, and as a result should have MORE to offer. Look at EVE. Look at SWG's JTL expansion. Why the hate?? Because for years we speculated on how AWESOME it would be to have a Star Wars MMORPG set in the Old Republic era....only we were envisioning a REAL MMORPG, not a glorified console game. By we you mean you and who? This is a REAL MMORPG, I'm looking forward to playing it. I'm sorry you're so butthurt about the whole thing. And I'm sorry that your so immature that "butthurt" is the best you can come up with for anyone who doesn't agree with you. We're pissed because there will NEVER be a true Star Wars MMORPG as a result of TOR. The potential is wasted.
Not catering to your desires does not make the game wasted. It is catering to my desires completely so far. I hope for great things from what I have seen. The movies just make it better and better in my opinion. Again I think you should find another game to wait on. Or maybe just go outside and enjoy nature for a while. You're butthurt over a game.
Listen to yourself. You're in essence saying "I don't care if you like it, you don't matter, GTFO".
And WHY the assumption that I'm an SWG fan?? because it fits into your image of someone who wants MORE from a game??
Fuck, if that were the case, then 90% of MMORPG players would all be SWG fans, and we know that's not true. You don't have to be a bitter ex-SWG player in order to want more from a game, and to expect an MMORPG to be something other than a hand-held rail-shooter.
I'm personally upset, because it's a single player game with a monthly fee.
They've expounded at length, in throngs of interviews, about how truly epic the single player "story" experience will be. But we've heard nary a peep about PvP, Grouping, Raiding - basically anything involving interaction with other players.
Sure, there's the arguement that you can 'tag along' on a friends quests and whatnot, but it's been stated countless times that this will not be necessary in any way. Making this a CO-OP game at best, not an MMO.
I'm sure the game will be the bomb-diggity, but it will not be an MMO without more lasting incentive than "you can always reroll!".
I think it would be unwise to assume that Bioware would neglect the "MMO" parts of The Old Republic just because they are not focusing on discussing it for the time being.
Every interview I've read or seen more or less came off as: "Yeah, we got all the MMO stuff in here...but THIS is what we can show you right now! /voice over work"
I do not personally believe the game will be on "rails" so to speak. I imagine you can do whatever you want. Then hop on the train for some story adventure time if you like. I figure all the "story stuff" is just a part of quest lines. That you may choose to take part of, or not.
Game mechanics take a while to iron our my friends. We will see them soon, I assure you. I imagine we all hope they live up to our expectations.
I think it would be unwise to assume that Bioware would neglect the "MMO" parts of The Old Republic just because they are not focusing on discussing it for the time being.
Every interview I've read or seen more or less came off as: "Yeah, we got all the MMO stuff in here...but THIS is what we can show you right now! /voice over work" I do not personally believe the game will be on "rails" so to speak. I imagine you can do whatever you want. Then hop on the train for some story adventure time if you like. I figure all the "story stuff" is just a part of quest lines. That you may choose to take part of, or not.
Game mechanics take a while to iron our my friends. We will see them soon, I assure you. I imagine we all hope they live up to our expectations.
I really....REALLY hope that you are right. And if this ends up being the case....if TOR ends up being the game that lets us have our cake and eat it too, then I will publicly apologise on this board and the official SWTOR forum for my pessimism.
I think it would be unwise to assume that Bioware would neglect the "MMO" parts of The Old Republic just because they are not focusing on discussing it for the time being.
Every interview I've read or seen more or less came off as: "Yeah, we got all the MMO stuff in here...but THIS is what we can show you right now! /voice over work" I do not personally believe the game will be on "rails" so to speak. I imagine you can do whatever you want. Then hop on the train for some story adventure time if you like. I figure all the "story stuff" is just a part of quest lines. That you may choose to take part of, or not.
Game mechanics take a while to iron our my friends. We will see them soon, I assure you. I imagine we all hope they live up to our expectations.
I really....REALLY hope that you are right. And if this ends up being the case....if TOR ends up being the game that lets us have our cake and eat it too, then I will publicly apologise on this board and the official SWTOR forum for my pessimism.
I'm somewhat pessimistic myself but there are a lot of uninformed bizarre negative rants here. It's no secret any MMO may do a face plant on launch but "I think this game may not be for me" is more sensilbe that either " This is the bestest game evar!" or "This game will sux azz" before anyone has even played it. There's not even been an in depth preview yet.
You are correct.
OP, this thread is not unique, dumbass comments either hailing SWTOR as the best thing ever or proclaiming it an epic failure have been shot down before.
To all the people taking part in the redundant conversation, please learn to use the search function.
It's already been said, but IMO most of the hate is because it's not going to be the game the haters wish SWG was, or at least that seems to be the theme of most of the people I've seen whining about it.
Comments
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be. But, not exclusive. Why not bash the OP for asking people then if you assume thats what they are saying. Still, you havnet answered the OP, only your personal opinion of other peoples answers.
So Who are you talking to? What people? And who asked you for your opinion of them? And why would your opinion be worth anything? At least theirs is telling Bioware how they could get a few more people. However unlikely. And they don't start attacking people until others act like they speak on behalf of Bioware and attack them first. For all you know, the other parts of the game could be everything your bashing, And the sandbox crowd may like that part. So far we know its not a simulation, and it has kotor like story. Bioware has even mentioned the elder game of swg. uh-oh.
Also, What makes you think anyone cares about your off-topic opinions that violate the rules of this forum? Do you think you are accomplishing something, other than making this community here look bad? You can't even seem to handle someones opinion, when someone else ASKED FOR IT. You didnt like their answer...or couldnt handle it it seems.
Maybe someone should give you some advice. My opinion is, you need it. Your nobody here. Just like all of us. A nothing. Just another opinion that won't effect anything. Why act like your are?
See, anyone can do it.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
Your interpereting sandbox, as a pure sandbox/simulation mmorpg. there are many types. more often than not, they're sandbox elements. Which can be found in many games. Vanguard has an open world and freedom. Its not sandbox mmo. See?So I disagree with your interpertation. I may not agree with people who are asking for things ever seeing them in this game. But, Im not gonna act like Im somebody special, because i dont really know either. And I don't assume because I'm right I can forget that Im a guest here, and am above the rules. Whether your right or wrong or im bitter or crazy...you're still nobody here. Just like me.Just like the people you respond to.
your point needs to follow the forum rules. If you can't do that..why are you telling people what they should do? No one is gonna listen to you anyway.
obviously, I don't care what you think of me.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You know, it is possible to make a point without totally insulting people who don't agree with you.
You know, it is possible to eat raw human flesh and not die from it.
Doesn't mean I'm going to do it.
"So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Hmm. Looks like the OP asked a question. Which you have yet to answer. I havnt seen anyone asking for a sandbox. More freedom ive seen. Open world. Make your own story as opposed to theirs. All of which are legitimate answers. All of which have nothing to do with a sandbox, sure they're more likely to be.
I stopped reading right there. And quite frankly judging by your posting history (bitter SWG vet much?) that's 7 sentances more than I typically give you. Needless to say the features you mentionened are all HALLMARKS of a sandbox open RPG. And they ARE pretty much the exact opposite of what Bioware is known for. Just becuase you don't call the Sky the Sky doesn't mean it isn't the same thing.
So my point was to tell people to stop wasting their time expecting something that is never going to be (and be bitter about it and troll the TOR forums needlessly) and your point was to play armchair philsopher with a net handle? Hell, even the guy that didn't like my agrresive tone still didn't take any issue with the actual gist of the post (becuase it's right).
TLDR: People who complain that Bioware isn't making a Sanbox would be better served by waiting for Besetha's Oblivion MMO and not trolling Bioware games. Also, they smell like feet.
Your interpereting sandbox, as a pure sandbox/simulation mmorpg. there are many types. more often than not, they're sandbox elements. Which can be found in many games. Vanguard has an open world and freedom. Its not sandbox mmo. See?So I disagree with your interpertation. I may not agree with people who are asking for things ever seeing them in this game. But, Im not gonna act like Im somebody special, because i dont really know either. And I don't assume because I'm right I can forget that Im a guest here, and am above the rules. Whether your right or wrong or im bitter or crazy...you're still nobody here. Just like me.Just like the people you respond to.
your point needs to follow the forum rules. If you can't do that..why are you telling people what they should do? No one is gonna listen to you anyway.
obviously, I don't care what you think of me.
www.zenimaxonline.com
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
My sentiments exactly.
I played SWG alongside a guild that was eager to live within the Starwars Universe, I'm not what you would define as a person who lives and breaths Starwars but I enjoy what it has to offer, epic storyline with a universe to adventure through.
I along with others was disappointed once the game took a very different direction, it wasn't becuase of the changes per-se it was becuase of the lack of communication and the drastic way in which it happened, the game became something very different overnight and not something I had expected to play, so at that point it was a very alien game from that point on.
I had friends who where Starwars fanatics who quit within the first month before any changes had even been thought of, they where the ones who said to me "This is NOT Starwars" those where the ones that no matter what you gave them would never be happy, as they all had very different ideas of what a Starwars Universe should be.
Bioware has an outstanding catalogue of top notch RPG games, this alone should be proof enough to the Nay sayers/Doom-mongorers/Trolls that Bioware have a definate understanding of giving ppl an involving and immersive story/world for us to adventure within.
What I have seen and read so far has left me in no doubt that SWTOR will be an enjoyable adventure, I'm not concerned if it doesn't break any new ground within the MMO genre, I just want a good story that swallows me up and makes me forget about the world around me for a few hours, and over the years Bioware has managed to do that for me.
well, to be honest, I typically avoid the TOR forums, both here and the official ones. I try not to bash games that I don't play, or don't intend to play. I'm not a "troll"...I don't hang around making negative posts all day...I have better things to do.
HOWEVER, when someone ASKS, like the OP in this thread did, I have no problem piping up with my opinion. Posters in this thread should realise that the OP specifically ASKED for the opinion of those who dislike the direction that the game is apparently headed.
As you've stated, Bioware HAS been open and up-front about the design of the game so far. This completely invalidates the arguments of those who say "don't judge a game we know nothing about"...we have information, and we can form opinions based on that information.
However, after YEARS of wanting this game to happen, and spamming the Bioware forums asking for a "KOTOR MMORPG", having the game take this direction gives us PLENTY of reason to "feel the sting of dashed hopes". Many loooong threads were created with wonderful, wistful discussions about what we would love to see in this game...and NONE of that so far has actually made into the incarnation of that dream.
Yes, people are bitter. We asked for one thing, and were totally blown off in persuit of "Iconic Star-Warsy" gameplay that has more in common with Mass Effect Online than the game we all begged for.
Let me just pipe in and say that you are completely right in that your opinion was asked and you answered it. We all have our opinions on what constitutes a good game and this one just won't do it for you. You weren't trolling like so many like to do around here and I salute you.
In regards to the OP, this game isn't being hated on as much as you think. Watch any game in development and there are always a small contigent of people who aren't going to like it and make all kinds of stupid remarks. Those are the people you just have to point at and laugh.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
This game is gonna rock its bioware!
But for those that want have dig here and there and moan its very simple - GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!
Big list here - follow the link
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm
Night, night
Playing: FFXIV
Future: wishing for SWG 2, World of Warcraft Classic
Played: Most current and extinct MMO's - 18 Years in....
Interesting Fact - I own 27 Tarantula's
I guess the new missused term is linear because none of you seem to know what it means
As I read through a lot of the posts on this topic, I see a lot of back and forth about the same subjects. Essentially what I've been able to glean from all of this is that there are several camps of MMO philosophy that all presumed too much and are now disappointed in one fashion or another with the choices made in the game's design so far.
________________________________________________
The 1st camp: The SWG Pre-CU Vets
The majoirity who are vocal seem to be most disappointed because it's not the 2nd coming of SWG Pre-CU that they somehow thought it would be, (a grossly unreasonable expectation for several reaosns, not the least of which is considering the development studio and publisher.)
The 2nd camp: The MMO Crowd
These folks are the ones disappointed with the 'linear-ness' (which seems ironic to ME as there are so few MMOs that are non-linear...)
The 3rd camp: The Bioware RPGers
These folks are the only 'happy' campers in the bunch, and are content to put their faith completely in Bioware to deliver the ultimate Star Wars MMO gaming experience.
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Each of these groups has something in common however; none of them are going to be happy with the game that TOR will be.
SWG Pre-CU Vets, (this is the camp I find myself in moreso than the other two, but I am not the typical 'disgruntled' Vet... usually : ) have a very hard time detaching from the fun they had in SWG Pre-CU. Think of it like this; You find a new restaurant you like, and they serve a meal that you find very much to your liking. You come by often and order your favorite meal and things are pretty good. Then, you come by the restaurant and see there's a 'Now Under New Management!' banner hanging outside. You sit down, order your favorite meal, and when it comes out, it looks the same, but tastes totally different. You realize that they've changed the recipe, and for that matter, the whole menu. Disappointed, you decide that you'll try and find a new restaurant, and hope that you'll see your favorite meal on the menu, and once in a while you do, but it's still not the same...
I think that I'm one of the few SWG Pre-CU Vets that has reconciled that I won't have that meal again, so I appreciate the fact that I had it and try to find something to like about other games and not hold them to standards that I know they haven't held themselves too. SWG Vets; believe it or not - Not EVERY Start Wars game is trying to shoot for the SWG 'Glory Days'. Most of the industry percieves Pre-CU SWG as a failure not to be repeated. Failure or not, I had an absolute BLAST while I was playing. I loved being able to do my own thing when, where, and how I saw fit. That is NOT what TOR is looking to be. I'll say that again; That is NOT what TOR will be.
To continue w/ the restaurant analogy from above, the MMO camp seem to want special-order every thing. They don't want anything on the menu as it is - even if they've never tried it. No this, extra that, could you bring this on the side, does this come with that on it? Despite the fact that the chef is going to do his best work if you let him prepare the meal the way he's trained to, they'll make a dozen special requests and then complain about the taste. Whereas if they'd ordered from the menu like a regular customer, they might have like the meal just fine, (though maybe not be blown away by it, but at least enjoyed it enough not to complain...)
The MMO folks seem to be precognitive somehow to be able to know that a game is not going to be to their liking before even trying it. Somehow, a game they've only heard about having this, that or the other feature, (or not having it,) is all they need to know to determine that a game is good or not. Because HOW features are implemented has NO bearing on anything right? If you're dead-set that TORs features are a absolute turn-off, regardless of waiting to see how the 'turn-off' features are implemented, (cause it might not be the end of the gaming world and the ruination of the genre believe it or not...) then wait for a trial of the game to come out, or try it on a friends' account. That way, you save yourself from looking foolish and rasing hell about something you have ZERO experience with.
The Bioware RPGers go to McDonald's and think to themselves, 'Well, everybody loves McDonald's French Fries, I bet they'd make awesome pizza too!' (I know, I know, select McDonald's do / did serve pizza... The point still stands; it isn't / wasn't that good.)
While Bioware definitely an absolutely FANTASTIC developer of RPGs, that doesn't automatically make them FANTASTIC MMORPG developers. Wait, I know what you're thinking, 'Well, Blizzard is another developer that had a portfolio of successful non-MMO games and look how they're MMO turned out?' Fair enough. Here's the thing though: Bioware isn't Blizzard. Just because one company had success in a genre they had no experience in, doesn't mean it holds true for every company that tries. Blizzard didn't have the constrains of developing an IP associated with 30+ years of historical pop-culture significance either. Cut Bioware some slack about developing the ultimate SW MMO game, and they may get lucky and make at least a good game.
Long post I know, and if you made it this far hopefully you'll be able to understand my opinion on the situation, though you may not agree.
And for the record, I hope Bioware has success in this market, so that they will have the confidence to make another go of it with an IP of their own one day.
EDIT: Further spelling & grammar corrections. (Shocking I know... I don't get them all everytime, but I get most, most of the time.)
I don't think there is a poster here that doesn't understand where you are coming from. Nobody thinks that what SOE did was right and many like myself called out SOE for it. The problem people have with so many vets is the childish manner in which so many of them acted.When the NGE came around and all my friends left, I didn't jump up and down and threaten a lawsuit. I didn't spend my days on the forums in some crazy crusade to demand SOE to change the game back. I simply logged off and canceled my account. . Trolling the forums and demanding another company to give you your game back four years afterward is just insane. At some point you have to move on. There are far worse things that can happen to you in life than having your game taken away.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
What a waste of time.
What a waste of time.
Indeed. I just skipped his post becuase the size of the font made my eyes hemorage.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
Then don't play the game.
I won't.
The game is set during the era of a massive war between the Republic and the Sith, and who do you expect to be?
The guy who sits on the sidelines and serves out cold Kool-Aid when both sides call a time-out?
Why not?
You don't have to be a hero, play Sith and you can be the conquering douchebag who kicks baby kittens and steals walking canes from the senior citizens of the Republic. I think the whole "It's on rails" argument is overblown. The cover systems shows you all the possible cover spots you have, it doesn't force you to go from one specific spot to the next. Did you expect to be able to take cover behind a space daisy or some Kath Hound turd?
Which means there's VERY little real-estate in the game, otherwise they'd need an entire team of people JUST to put a little icon in all the possible PRE DEFINED (which is the KEY here) cover spots in the game.
The story arcs are pre-defined. The cover spots for smugs are pre-defined. EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route (as explained in one of the very first DEV interviews).
The choices are an illusion. And how long do you think it will be before a web site pops up with all the story brances mapped out so that a given class can just jam down the shortest path, in what will basically amount to a different kind of grind??
You people are naive.
I think the term you're looking for is, "The smugs' cover spots are HIGHLIGHTED when you choose them." You're using the phrase 'pre-defined' to imply that everything has been decided for you, and anyone who's played a Bioware game knows that really isn't the case.
As far as having story branches mapped out, that's going to be totally unnecessary. The way in which Bioware handles conversation dialog makes story branch posting useless some moron out there doesn't understand 'Kill Granny for more darkside' and that the 'shut up and get to the point' option skips five scenes of dialog. Oh, and spoilers, I guess, but that's really more personal preference.
As far as choice being an illusion, "xplained in one of the very first DEV interviews" that "EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route" then I'd like to see a link to that journal, because in several other releases they've explained that your choices are important and have an impact on the story and your allies, and one of the times they point this out is in the new video they released. You knew that though, because that video is premiering the smuggler cover system as well. By they way, if you go back and watch that video, you'll notice the outline only appears where he leaves cover and AFTER the smug toon starts approaching the cover he's going to use, so the icon is actually a placeholder to show what your position looks like and NOT a big green "ok to hide here" sign.
I think before you start saying people are naive, you should do a little more research into your side of the argument.
you're reaching, and grasping at straws...but that's ok. I don't really expect much more from the TOR fanbot brigade, and I'm not spending my valuable time trying to argue with you. I learned months ago that to dare to speak out about the holy grail of games is inviting a torrent of this kind of responses, which only leads to multiple pages of wasted time.
And I've wasted enough of my time on SWTOR.
I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change the facts.
Edit:
"GFW: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge."
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155486
I don't understand how I was 'reaching', but you won't explain it because it was a vague insult and the best you can do. What I DO understand is that I was able to make my point without insulting anyone, and you pretty much act like you're superior because you've chosen to not play a game, and imply that the fans of SWTOR are some disorganized mass of naive morons.
As far as your example on SWTOR from the DEV interview, you've come tho THIS conclusion:
"EVERYTHING is pre-defined so that the "story" isn't "broken" by a player going along an un-expected route"
From this paragraph:
"GFW: And what of player-created content? Player-built cities, player-run businesses, that sort of thing?
Rich Vogel: There'll definitely be an economy in our game, like WoW. But is our game going to be a simulation? No. Our game is an entertainment experience.
James Ohlen: If we're going to create immersive, epic stories that are believable, that really goes against having a simulation-type world. Those two things don't go together well.
Gordon Walton: And putting the onus on players to create all the fun is ... a challenge."
You'll note that this quote also comes from the same interview:
Rich Vogel, co-studio director of product development: One thing we don't want to do is NPC Pez dispensers, as I call them -- go over there, dispense a quest, and then go "vacuum-clean" a zone. We want to make sure you listen to NPCs, because choices matter. And that's really important.
I don't know where you've gotten 'pre-defined story" from "No Player Cities". I guess I'm not the one 'grasping at straws'.
If you think THAT was insulting, then you are too thin-skinned to be on the MMORPG.com forums, there buddy. Trust me, if I were going to insult you, I would do it in a way that left no question to the fact that I just fucking insulted you.
And actually, I draw my concluseions from the fucking PILE of information and reasons given that TOR won't be a "sandbox" game. It's funny how when someone complains that there's no sandbox in TOR, you people can quickly pull out quotes and evidence as to WHY, but then it suits you can then claim thatr evidence doesn't exist.
And this is another reason why I consider arguing on the TOR forums to be an utter waste of time...it's like a retarded merry-go-round, going round and round and getting nowhere. I can point out facts, and you will claim they don't exist...until of course you need them to back your little argument.
So...have fun. I've got better shit to do.
Because Fear leads to anger, anger leads to Hate and Hate leads to suffering.
I read the title of the thread, but quickly noticed the absurd length of some of these comments so I have no idea what everyone is talking about.
However, my 2 cents: I love story in a game. I love Bioware games. I love a well crafted online experience. I hate fedex/kill xx creatures quests. I don't care about leveling much. Star Wars is a cool setting.
Conclusion: I will probably love SWTOR.
they could take the game off rails, and let let us be who we WANT to be.
I like the game on rails. When they create a story they do a good job. I want them to do what they have proven in the past to be experts at. One of the two of us will NOT get what they want. I'm guessing it's you and SWG is waiting on you to go back. I hated that game in every version. It sucked pre-cu and it sucked NGE.
I don't want to be FORCED to be a "hero"....I don't want to be forced into a pre-designed "iconic" role....I want a virtual Star Wars universe where I carve my OWN path, and make my own way.
Playing Aunt Beru is your idea of fun. It is not mine.
I want more to do than just "exciting Star-Warsy" combat.
There will be lots to do. Do some reseach instead of flaming and you'll see this.
A game with depth, and freedom, in other words.
This game will have depth, just not your definition of depth. The game will have freedom of choice in all the scenarios, they've already said this.
This is simply another step toward over-simplifying and consolising MMORPGs. Have you seen the Smuggler's cover system, for example?? It TELLS you with little icons where to take cover....you're on rails the whole time, with pre-designated courses of action.
This is much easier to code. plain and simple. You wont be getting this style of gameplay anywhere else, really if you don't like it there are other games. Please go to one of them. Those of us who thought SWG sucked, left to play elsewhere, now it's your turn.
Any choice is purely an illusion, and any there can be no freedom in this type of game. I am pretty much predicting that any space combat, if it's even included, will be more like Star Fox, or some other rail shooter.
I hope so, I loved Starfox. Was a blast to play.
Why the hate?? Because for years we speculated on how AWESOME it would be to have a Star Wars MMORPG set in the Old Republic era....only we were envisioning a REAL MMORPG, not a glorified console game.
By we you mean you and who? This is a REAL MMORPG, I'm looking forward to playing it. I'm sorry you're so butthurt about the whole thing.
We're pissed because there will NEVER be a true Star Wars MMORPG as a result of TOR. The potential is wasted.
Not catering to your desires does not make the game wasted. It is catering to my desires completely so far. I hope for great things from what I have seen. The movies just make it better and better in my opinion. Again I think you should find another game to wait on. Or maybe just go outside and enjoy nature for a while. You're butthurt over a game.
Hate leads to TROLLING!
Hehe, I too do not understand the hate mongering on this board as of late. Did the other boards where flamers used to hang out finally just go dead cuz everyone had flamed each other to the point of insanity or what?
Seriously though, speculate all you want on which ever way you think this game is going to go. I think most of this comes down to those who like to point back to some thread from 3 years ago and say "SEE! Told ya it would FAIL!"
Sad day. Sad, sad, day when that is all you havbe to look forward in life. This game may end up being the big Teh Suk! So what? Who cares? You think someone will look at you being more the wiser cuz you said it would 2 years ago? You think BioWare will care of they have 300k subscribers and your puny little text on some web site calls it the dumbest singleplayer multiplayer game evah?
Hehe, this post is not pointing at any one individual. All of them whose sole purpose is to spout futile hate for a game based on no more information than a FANBOI has who states it will be the next comming of WoW ( note christian pun implied and intended ).
So, shall we coin the term of HAYTBOI on those who's fecal covered posts on Games to be released in over a year are no more based on factual information than those fanbois stating it will be the one and only?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Listen to yourself. You're in essence saying "I don't care if you like it, you don't matter, GTFO".
And WHY the assumption that I'm an SWG fan?? because it fits into your image of someone who wants MORE from a game??
Fuck, if that were the case, then 90% of MMORPG players would all be SWG fans, and we know that's not true. You don't have to be a bitter ex-SWG player in order to want more from a game, and to expect an MMORPG to be something other than a hand-held rail-shooter.
I'm personally upset, because it's a single player game with a monthly fee.
They've expounded at length, in throngs of interviews, about how truly epic the single player "story" experience will be. But we've heard nary a peep about PvP, Grouping, Raiding - basically anything involving interaction with other players.
Sure, there's the arguement that you can 'tag along' on a friends quests and whatnot, but it's been stated countless times that this will not be necessary in any way. Making this a CO-OP game at best, not an MMO.
I'm sure the game will be the bomb-diggity, but it will not be an MMO without more lasting incentive than "you can always reroll!".
I think it would be unwise to assume that Bioware would neglect the "MMO" parts of The Old Republic just because they are not focusing on discussing it for the time being.
Every interview I've read or seen more or less came off as: "Yeah, we got all the MMO stuff in here...but THIS is what we can show you right now!
/voice over work"
I do not personally believe the game will be on "rails" so to speak. I imagine you can do whatever you want. Then hop on the train for some story adventure time if you like. I figure all the "story stuff" is just a part of quest lines. That you may choose to take part of, or not.
Game mechanics take a while to iron our my friends. We will see them soon, I assure you. I imagine we all hope they live up to our expectations.
I really....REALLY hope that you are right. And if this ends up being the case....if TOR ends up being the game that lets us have our cake and eat it too, then I will publicly apologise on this board and the official SWTOR forum for my pessimism.
I have no hatred to ToR, but I'll be honest, it from all the promo stuff, and I have read enough, it just sounds crap to me.
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
I really....REALLY hope that you are right. And if this ends up being the case....if TOR ends up being the game that lets us have our cake and eat it too, then I will publicly apologise on this board and the official SWTOR forum for my pessimism.
I'm somewhat pessimistic myself but there are a lot of uninformed bizarre negative rants here. It's no secret any MMO may do a face plant on launch but "I think this game may not be for me" is more sensilbe that either " This is the bestest game evar!" or "This game will sux azz" before anyone has even played it. There's not even been an in depth preview yet.
You are correct.
OP, this thread is not unique, dumbass comments either hailing SWTOR as the best thing ever or proclaiming it an epic failure have been shot down before.
To all the people taking part in the redundant conversation, please learn to use the search function.
It's already been said, but IMO most of the hate is because it's not going to be the game the haters wish SWG was, or at least that seems to be the theme of most of the people I've seen whining about it.