yes we all know tor will more then likely be out in 2012 or 2013 and that gives us time we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want and to you and that other person claiming your swg vets how sad how sad that you will take a watered down mmo title that has star wars on the front of it rather then our pre-cu system. do you remember how much fun the pre-cu was? do you remember how if $OE had only fixed it we would have given wow a run for its money? swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
The problem is all the fanboys(cant stand fanboys, its thoose people that ruins game, they are pleased with everything delivered to them), they are always talking about how awsome the game will be, and how it will kill this and that mmo ect ect. They are full of shit basicly, they know as little as everyone else about this game, but yet they have the need to go on with theire mindless ramble. The real funny part is how this guys/gals are defending TOR from critics with words like: Dude, we dont know anything about the game yet, its still in progress. Seems abit hypocritical to mee.
The only thing I can say is ToR really doesn't have a huge "fanboi" base, from what I have seen anyways. There are people that think the game looks good, but they also bring forth problems they see. They acknowledge they don't know more then the average person. But most of the time just because they are liking what they see, some asshat walks in and labels them a "fanboi".
The real funny part is people dropping in to demand changes because they know what the game is about, and how it plays out. Those people are worse then any fanboys, imo.
I've never been a big star wars fan, or really a major fan of anything.. I like what i like... and I liked what I saw of ToR and I liked both KOTOR games. Currently I know very little about what this game will turn into... as opposed to champions online or AION or Fallen Earth where information is readily available and there were tons of articles on the features each game has.
This isn't Open Beta where I'm saying, "No guys its cool, those bugs will be fixed, its still in beta." These are developer demo footage videos that show some parts of the gameplay. I also see the futility to whine and cry about trying to make this into a PreNGE SWG... its stupid.. it didn't work when SOE lost all their subs and it won't work now.
SO all I'm really saying is... let them make their game. When YOU guys make your own game, you can make it however you want. Let BioWare --- these creative professionals that will actually accomplish something --- make the game they envision making. Whats hard about that to understand?
The only thing I can say is ToR really doesn't have a huge "fanboi" base, from what I have seen anyways. There are people that think the game looks good, but they also bring forth problems they see. They acknowledge they don't know more then the average person. But most of the time just because they are liking what they see, some asshat walks in and labels them a "fanboi". The real funny part is people dropping in to demand changes because they know what the game is about, and how it plays out. Those people are worse then any fanboys, imo.
I've never been a big star wars fan, or really a major fan of anything.. I like what i like... and I liked what I saw of ToR and I liked both KOTOR games. Currently I know very little about what this game will turn into... as opposed to champions online or AION or Fallen Earth where information is readily available and there were tons of articles on the features each game has.
This isn't Open Beta where I'm saying, "No guys its cool, those bugs will be fixed, its still in beta." These are developer demo footage videos that show some parts of the gameplay. I also see the futility to whine and cry about trying to make this into a PreNGE SWG... its stupid.. it didn't work when SOE lost all their subs and it won't work now.
SO all I'm really saying is... let them make their game. When YOU guys make your own game, you can make it however you want. Let BioWare --- these creative professionals that will actually accomplish something --- make the game they envision making. Whats hard about that to understand?
Everything you said is exactly what I was pointing out. You don't have to be a "fanboi" to like the direction this game is taking. Even with little info, you can see things you like and don't like. But ultimately you will not know the outcome until far more information is available. And right now, we really don't know anything.
yes we all know tor will more then likely be out in 2012 or 2013 and that gives us time we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want and to you and that other person claiming your swg vets how sad how sad that you will take a watered down mmo title that has star wars on the front of it rather then our pre-cu system. do you remember how much fun the pre-cu was? do you remember how if $OE had only fixed it we would have given wow a run for its money? swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit. we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games full of fail
Stolen? Are you kidding me? They can rightfully change the game if they want. Even though it pissed people off, it's still there game. You should have gotten over this years ago you crying man child. And for what it's worth, I had five friends that played SWG Pre-CU with me. We are all very different people, and not a single one is blaming BioWare. Grow the hell up and get a pair.
What does AoC and War have to do with ToR? Are you suggesting that just because they are far different then SWG they are fail? Hell look at WoW, EvE, even L2 does better the SWG. Now and Pre-NGE. Nobody can predict ToRs outcome and be correct until that time arrives. You are just as blind as those "fanbois" are.
You are the minority, just your minority is so LOUD. Your little group of people are the last thing anybody should hear out. The little crybaby Vets have no rational thinking skills. If you did, you wouldn't still be crying, now would you? You can sit there and spew out random idiotic things day after day. But at the end of the day you and those other "250K" (yeah right) people are pathetic. keep doing what you do best, crying, you are actually helping. Keeping the game like it is means people like you wont be playing.
yes we all know tor will more then likely be out in 2012 or 2013 and that gives us time we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want and to you and that other person claiming your swg vets how sad how sad that you will take a watered down mmo title that has star wars on the front of it rather then our pre-cu system. do you remember how much fun the pre-cu was? do you remember how if $OE had only fixed it we would have given wow a run for its money? swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
full of fail
BioWare should listen to you if they want their maximum subscriber base to be 300K which is by no way a majority. You already got a chance to voice your opinion. You get to vote with your wallet. If you didn't like the NGE, then you should've quit. I know I did. Not only did I quit but I got my money back for Trials of Obi Wan too.
Nobody owes you anything. As greed said its their game, that they can change when THEY want to. Was it a good idea to change it? NO. That was a completely different company. Why don't you go complain on the Guild Wars 2 forum about how much they want a SWG PreNGE style of gameplay? Why does it have to be ToR that you've decided to get all butt hurt on? This is not galaxies. If this is really the way you think the market for MMOs should be, then you would've been arguing that on every game, but you aren't.. you're arguing on a star wars game because you can't get over what you once had. The wake-up call is that you won't change BioWares vision of how they will make their game. They don't care about the meager subscription numbers you claim they would get. Go find a SWG emu or something to play, let BioWare have their shot.
yes we all know tor will more then likely be out in 2012 or 2013 and that gives us time we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want and to you and that other person claiming your swg vets how sad how sad that you will take a watered down mmo title that has star wars on the front of it rather then our pre-cu system. do you remember how much fun the pre-cu was? do you remember how if $OE had only fixed it we would have given wow a run for its money? swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
Originally posted by stillkillin we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want
You 'know' this based on what? A few videos that show very little of the game? You know nothing other than general game type classification such as if it is sandbox or story/quest driven. The rest is quite unknown and will largely determine whether the game is good or not.
Originally posted by stillkillin swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
??? I was a day 1 SWG guy, I played right up until the first holocron hit and I quit because I knew the game was going to the toilet since they decided to offer Jedi to stem the cancels rather than fixing the things they launched broken. I came back a while later, around JTL and played for a while more though. To say SWG pre-cu was perfect and how all games should be is ridiculous and naive of the serious issues that the game had (namely an alpha class but also balance issues and other problems stemming from releasing before the game was ready). That is why they did the CU, and the NGE - because there where serious problems and subs where bleeding like crazy. Now, I do not agree with the changes of the CU or NGE but to deny that the game had serious and deep problems is to deny the reality of the situation as it was at the time.
People seem to romanticize SWG in a way that ignores teh reality of how many serious flaws the game had from an early launch. Do you not recall this is the game that pretty much invented the phrase 'flavor of the month' with each update completely NERFing last months overpowered build in favor of some new overpowered build. Do you not recall PokeMan pet wars, the commando flamethrower fiasco, the ability to pull three ATSTs and solo Krayts to farm scales? How about the smaller things like being able to plant a house in combat and enter and block out your attacker and myriad other PvP exploits such as the crazy TEF (temporary enemy flag) crap that made PvP heavily exploitable and often frustrating. What about later bugs like when you tried to attack someone and all they had to do was get in a buddies vehicle to avoid you, since you didn't have TEF on the vehicle owner you couldn't attack the vehicle and you had no way to target the player in the vehicle. Remember the fun of incapacitating someone and not letting them back up but not deathblowing them - basically a free pas to grief someone however you saw fit until changes came later. Remember half the classes/skillsets being either totally broken (bio engineer, droid engineer) or totally useless (initial melee classes).
These are just off the top of my head, there where many, many, many more serious bugs and major flaws that never got addressed and led to people canceling subs at a steep rate. This is why they cooked up the CU and NGE in a desperate effort to stop the downward spiral of the game, they actually made it worse but the action was inspired by all the real problems that existed in the game. There where tons and tons of major issues in SWG, not only at launch but all the way through to the CU and even up to the NGE. SWG was a great idea, a great unrealized idea, it shipped early and unfinished and never ever got fixed. SOE screwed things up not by ruining a perfect and ideal game but by refusing to fix the issues with the unfinished and flawed game they launched and then later but trying big sweeping changes (CU and NGE) in a wild stab in the dark at glossing over the problems.
Originally posted by stillkillin
jedi should be special something that players unlock by working hard for it and yes it should be much more powerful then other professions.
Alpha classes do not work, this is an undeniable fact and it is the reason SWG collapsed and all the revamps where necessary. if you have a one certain path to power then everyone gravitates to that path and the game suffers dramatically as a result.
Originally posted by Dahlifyr The real funny part is how this guys/gals are defending TOR from critics with words like: Dude, we dont know anything about the game yet, its still in progress. Seems abit hypocritical to mee.
How is it hypocritical? All I am saying is that we do not know enough about the many details that are unknown to judge the game. All we know now is some very general things, yes it will not be sandbox but what kind of non sandbox game it will be is as of yet unknown to us. It could still end up being a decent game, even a great game, even if it is not a sandbox - the idea that all games that are not sandbox skill based games are completely terrible is a flawed premise. Yes, non sandbox might not be your preference and might be something that precludes you from liking an MMO but if you cannot recognize that as a preference then you are narrow minded and not really an MMO fan.
Think of a movie, there are dramas and thrillers and and horror and comedies and adventure movies and many others. All we know about TOR at this point is that it is drama and likely not a thriller (just picked to categories without any implied meaning). To say based on that category the game will suck is just ridiculous. There are good movies in all categories even ifyou may not not particularity like one category of movies.
Originally posted by stillkillin we need to show bioware that the game that they have right now sucks and we need to get out there and demand bioware give us the game that we the players want not what they think we want
You 'know' this based on what? A few videos that show very little of the game? You know nothing other than general game type classification such as if it is sandbox or story/quest driven. The rest is quite unknown and will largely determine whether the game is good or not.
Originally posted by stillkillin swg pre-cu is what every game on the market should try and be and you should be on the swg vet forum helping with the good fight to get our game back and if swg isn't going to come back then tor must be the game that replaces what was stolen from us
??? I was a day 1 SWG guy, I played right up until the first holocron hit and I quit because I knew the game was going to the toilet since they decided to offer Jedi to stem the cancels rather than fixing the things they launched broken. I came back a while later, around JTL and played for a while more though. To say SWG pre-cu was perfect and how all games should be is ridiculous and naive of the serious issues that the game had (namely an alpha class but also balance issues and other problems stemming from releasing before the game was ready). That is why they did the CU, and the NGE - because there where serious problems and subs where bleeding like crazy. Now, I do not agree with the changes of the CU or NGE but to deny that the game had serious and deep problems is to deny the reality of the situation as it was at the time.
People seem to romanticize SWG in a way that ignores teh reality of how many serious flaws the game had from an early launch. Do you not recall this is the game that pretty much invented the phrase 'flavor of the month' with each update completely NERFing last months overpowered build in favor of some new overpowered build. Do you not recall PokeMan pet wars, the commando flamethrower fiasco, the ability to pull three ATSTs and solo Krayts to farm scales? How about the smaller things like being able to plant a house in combat and enter and block out your attacker and myriad other PvP exploits such as the crazy TEF (temporary enemy flag) crap that made PvP heavily exploitable and often frustrating. What about later bugs like when you tried to attack someone and all they had to do was get in a buddies vehicle to avoid you, since you didn't have TEF on the vehicle owner you couldn't attack the vehicle and you had no way to target the player in the vehicle. Remember the fun of incapacitating someone and not letting them back up but not deathblowing them - basically a free pas to grief someone however you saw fit until changes came later. Remember half the classes/skillsets being either totally broken (bio engineer, droid engineer) or totally useless (initial melee classes).
These are just off the top of my head, there where many, many, many more serious bugs and major flaws that never got addressed and led to people canceling subs at a steep rate. This is why they cooked up the CU and NGE in a desperate effort to stop the downward spiral of the game, they actually made it worse but the action was inspired by all the real problems that existed in the game. There where tons and tons of major issues in SWG, not only at launch but all the way through to the CU and even up to the NGE. SWG was a great idea, a great unrealized idea, it shipped early and unfinished and never ever got fixed. SOE screwed things up not by ruining a perfect and ideal game but by refusing to fix the issues with the unfinished and flawed game they launched and then later but trying big sweeping changes (CU and NGE) in a wild stab in the dark at glossing over the problems.
Originally posted by stillkillin
jedi should be special something that players unlock by working hard for it and yes it should be much more powerful then other professions.
Alpha classes do not work, this is an undeniable fact and it is the reason SWG collapsed and all the revamps where necessary. if you have a one certain path to power then everyone gravitates to that path and the game suffers dramatically as a result.
Originally posted by Dahlifyr The real funny part is how this guys/gals are defending TOR from critics with words like: Dude, we dont know anything about the game yet, its still in progress. Seems abit hypocritical to mee.
How is it hypocritical? All I am saying is that we do not know enough about the many details that are unknown to judge the game. All we know now is some very general things, yes it will not be sandbox but what kind of non sandbox game it will be is as of yet unknown to us. It could still end up being a decent game, even a great game, even if it is not a sandbox - the idea that all games that are not sandbox skill based games are completely terrible is a flawed premise. Yes, non sandbox might not be your preference and might be something that precludes you from liking an MMO but if you cannot recognize that as a preference then you are narrow minded and not really an MMO fan.
Think of a movie, there are dramas and thrillers and and horror and comedies and adventure movies and many others. All we know about TOR at this point is that it is drama and likely not a thriller (just picked to categories without any implied meaning). To say based on that category the game will suck is just ridiculous. There are good movies in all categories even ifyou may not not particularity like one category of movies.
Well said. I also find it interesting how some of these crazies try and whitewash the many problems with that game. I still remember the nerf wars that played out on the official forums. Anytime a skill was successful against jedi, the jedi community would demand that it be nerfed. Sure enough, the next patch comes out and it's nerfed. Then everyone else has to go thru the tedious process of regrinding their characters to the new FOTM. I've never seen a game actually ENCOURAGE exploiting and cheating like SWG did. I gave up sending tickets because they were never responded to or no action was taken. That spot on Kashyyk was never fixed and padawans would hop on it the minute a bounty hunter would enter the area. Jedi would complain of Bounty Hunters grouping up or hunting their own faction, but since jedi were so powerful, what other choice did they have?
Judging by that poster's rantings, it seems like he was a jedi player who got so used to being catered to by the devs that when the rug was pulled underneath him for the first time, he couldn't take it. The rest of us who experienced that on an almost monthly basis with nerfs to skills and weapons didn't matter as much.
Wow alot of hate towards SWG it seems. I thought the ToR preview looked pretty good, as to be expected of a great company like Bioware. I likely won't play it but hopefully the fans take it for what it is and like it.
I was expecting much more of LOTRO and slowly grew dissapointed to the point where I wont play Turbine mmos anymore. Hope for the best and plenty of future content to explore. If Bioware doesn't pull through and keep alot of the fans happy they may very well give themselves a bad name very quickly. A mmo take years to create, Bioware better deliver!!
AoC have somekind of a story thing going on and i didn't like it at all. Your forced to follow same stupid road over and over again...
MMORPG for me is a game that gives me the option to make my own character, looking like I do and I pick the my own road and I make my own history. being able to pick what side I wanna be on. Not being forced to be light or dark etc.
The freedom to explore and battle in huge areas, not small places that you must load to get inside. Or that you can't jump up on things to have some more fun.
Freedom! That is for me the best thing about some MMORPG.
Played: From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
AoC have somekind of a story thing going on and i didn't like it at all. Your forced to follow same stupid road over and over again...
MMORPG for me is a game that gives me the option to make my own character, looking like I do and I pick the my own road and I make my own history. being able to pick what side I wanna be on. Not being forced to be light or dark etc. The freedom to explore and battle in huge areas, not small places that you must load to get inside. Or that you can't jump up on things to have some more fun. Freedom! That is for me the best thing about some MMORPG.
BioWare isn't taking away your freedom... and rerolling characters will have completely different story lines... which supposedly a large part of the replayability factor. You are still free to make your choices and be in groups and PvP and travel the world.. I don't think we'll see very many hard set areas as it sounds like for the most part there will be a great amount of open world missions and activities.
MMORPG for me is a game that gives me the option to make my own character, looking like I do and I pick the my own road and I make my own history. being able to pick what side I wanna be on. Not being forced to be light or dark etc. The freedom to explore and battle in huge areas, not small places that you must load to get inside. Or that you can't jump up on things to have some more fun. Freedom! That is for me the best thing about some MMORPG.
Ideally, I agree that is the best part of an MMO. But with developments costs what they are they have to aim for wider audiences and that means guiding non old school MMOers along which means at least some, if not a lot, of the story type archetype stuff. I still think you can do both, at least do justice to one without forgetting the other, but that is the great challenge these developers face.
Originally posted by maskedweasel BioWare isn't taking away your freedom... and rerolling characters will have completely different story lines... which supposedly a large part of the replayability factor. You are still free to make your choices and be in groups and PvP and travel the world.. I don't think we'll see very many hard set areas as it sounds like for the most part there will be a great amount of open world missions and activities.
I think what folks are bemoaning, even myself to a degree, is that in today's story driven archetype class games you are not so much making your own character as you are unlocking the choices the DEVs already made. It is a valid criticism and the game that addresses it and succeeds with the story an mass appeal stuff will be the next big hit game, even if it is not a fullblown sandbox/skill based game.
"I think what folks are bemoaning, even myself to a degree, is that in today's story driven archetype class games you are not so much making your own character as you are unlocking the choices the DEVs already made. It is a valid criticism and the game that addresses it and succeeds with the story an mass appeal stuff will be the next big hit game, even if it is not a fullblown sandbox/skill based game."
No, this in nonsense. You obviously don't want a cohesive story. You want a sandbox adventure, which is fine, but not at all the point of this game. In order to tell a good story, which IS the point of this game; it needs limitations, restrictions, and set roles. You can't have a cohesive, structured story while allowing everyone to do whatever they want. You make the characters you own by defining their personalities and making choices. Yes, you'll always be a "Sith Warrior", but you get to decide the ideology, personality, and morality of said Sith Warrior.
"I think what folks are bemoaning, even myself to a degree, is that in today's story driven archetype class games you are not so much making your own character as you are unlocking the choices the DEVs already made. It is a valid criticism and the game that addresses it and succeeds with the story an mass appeal stuff will be the next big hit game, even if it is not a fullblown sandbox/skill based game." No, this in nonsense. You obviously don't want a cohesive story. You want a sandbox adventure, which is fine, but not at all the point of this game. In order to tell a good story, which IS the point of this game; it needs limitations, restrictions, and set roles. You can't have a cohesive, structured story while allowing everyone to do whatever they want. You make the characters you own by defining their personalities and making choices. Yes, you'll always be a "Sith Warrior", but you get to decide the ideology, personality, and morality of said Sith Warrior.
I am not being dismissive of this game, or other story games, I am just acknowledging the point at which such games lose people. I can appreciate a sandbox game for the freedom and a story game for the content even if I prefer a more sandbox oriented game. That being said, I think my original point that you quoted is very valid. For the most part people play RPGs for the pure story type experience, people play MMOs for the ability to insert their own character in to that story (at least to a degree). What has happened of late is that the story has made its way from RPGs to MMOs and done so in a way that supplanted the character building, inserting your own character in to the story, part of MMOs.
Take your last line, "you get to decide the ideology, personality, and morality". Show me a game where ideology, personality, and/or morality has any part, let alone significant part, of an MMO's gameplay. You cannot because it doesn't, so what I was saying is that in taking over the part of character building that developers have of late they are only leaving to players very non significant elements to insert themselves in to the story with. It doesn't mean the game will be bad, but it is something worth acknowledging and to many it is the reason they bemoan 'story' or 'archetype' games. The 'trick' is to do the story, even the archetype, but leave some meaningful things for the player to choose that directly affect not only ideology, personality, and/or morality but real gameplay attributes. This is key because the limitations of all these games is AI that can only really simulate combat which, as a result, remains the dominant gameplay element.
So as long as games are either you build the character (combat wise) sandbox or you level and unlock the character we made (again, combat wise) we made story driven they will find people on both sides that love/hate the game just for that reason. I was trying to suggest that a game that artfully integrates elements of both, even if favoring one of the other, will be the real success. To the sandbox folks I say give Bioware a chance and have argued as much here and elsewhere. However, that being said, if you fire up SW:TOR in the future and are pretty much just 'unlocking' dev built characters while playing through the story then the game will meet with limited success in so far as it won't appeal to those what want to insert their character into a great story/world. We shall see, I will certainly be playing when it is out to see where SW:TOR falls in the spectrum.
Please, for the love of MMOs, STOP obsessing over SWG! It's over. Done. The game still exists though, so go play IT! Go attack some zombies. Stop trying to convince ANOTHER developer to take action in awakening the beast. Your cries should be directed toward SOE and LA, NOT BW, although they should go unanswered because you guys are truly ridiculous.
Besides, TOR's storyline is FAR richer in depth and almost limitless in developmental possibilities than the latter. Not to mention, it contrasts well with the idea of everyone being a hero in their own right.
Stop crying. Go somewhere else to troll your miserable angles on the progression of the Star Wars MMOs and their franchise options and allow for those of us who aren't against this forum to discuss some serious, developmental issues within the game.
A) Who is obsessing over SWG? I know lots of anti TOR sentiment comes from folks that want a remake of SWG but I don't see that here in this thread so much.
As annoying as the 'SWG QQing' is the 'enough about SWG QQing', crying about crying runs thin as fast as crying.
The main source of the hate for this comes form the "pre-cu4tw" type of ex-swg players. They essentially wanted swg 2 and aren't getting it and are now venting their nerd rage.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Bah, I say let the haters hate. It will play out like Fox News and Mass Effect XD Then again, I haven't shown any sign of clairvoyance in the past...er...well, ever, so, I could be wrong, sure. I'm just saying, everyone has their standards, and I hope (expect) Bioware to fill most standards. Even if it turns out to be the most fantastic game since Tetris (or something), there will be people who will find an excuse to belittle the game. That's their right, I guess...(or wrong, if you want to get punny).
A) Who is obsessing over SWG? I know lots of anti TOR sentiment comes from folks that want a remake of SWG but I don't see that here in this thread so much.
As annoying as the 'SWG QQing' is the 'enough about SWG QQing', crying about crying runs thin as fast as crying.
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
When a man demands his wife/significant... whatever to stop crying, would you really consider that crying as well? I don't think so, but perhaps (and this is where your intelligence begins to fumble the ball) our logistics are polar in comparisson. Perhaps it is better even to state that I am no where near your level of expertise in the matters of crying and demanding.
However, it has been my experience that when someone demands, someone ELSE cries. Usually the one demanding is my cheerleading coach, so I can only bet you'll guess who cries under those circumstances... And so I feel compelled to repeat my coach's despotic approach by acting out on these forums against nursery rhyme-humming, shoes-on-the-wrong-feet-wearing, "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids"-enjoying, thumb-sucking, bed-wetting, googoogaagaaing, toy-breaking, SWG QQing, poddy-training tikes such as yourself. While you are entitled to your opinion, many of your colleagues tend to give off a matter-of-fact approach which is in no way necessary when regarding BioWare (who didn't have ANYTHING to do with SWG).
But I digress. While it's not to say that I have an issue with sticking your nose in the corner for a 5 minute time out (1 minute for every year of your life), I don't really feel the need to further belittle you in any way.
Instead, what I'm trying to convey here is a sense of pity in the form of a stfu, if only because you guys are beginning to sound a little redundant in your message; a message that advocates of a well-rounded, Old Republic-based MMORPG don't really care to hear.
In conclusion, feel free to continue crying. I will no longer demand a subject change from you. I can't say the same for my colleagues, but I think my point has been made (assuming you can comprehend logic).
It seems that over the last few months online there has been tons of rage over TOR, and the way the game is being designed; I.E. Story based not sandbox. My question to the community is why? Why are you dissapointed in the way the game is turning out. If you're a Star Wars Fan (the target audience) you'll be getting your favorite IP turned into an MMO; And not just any MMO one designed around story and intrigue with an engine that looks amazing and with characters that are fully voiced. If your a fan or RPGs, your getting a game designed by the single greatest company in the buisness (bioware) and are going to get the expirence of a life time. The only crowd that leaves are the WoW-esque MMO fans, who tend to like grind based gear gathering and repetitive instances (a niche already filled by WOW). And the SWG Vets (who are not, star wars fans in the strictest sense) who prefer well, SWG a games that already exists. So the question I post to all of the future SW:TOR community is "what could they do differently to please you?"
Give TOR a chance, I must admit I was taken back alittle by the non sandbox gameplay style, but, I won't knock it till I try it.
A) Who is obsessing over SWG? I know lots of anti TOR sentiment comes from folks that want a remake of SWG but I don't see that here in this thread so much.
As annoying as the 'SWG QQing' is the 'enough about SWG QQing', crying about crying runs thin as fast as crying.
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
That statement basically proves you are an idiot. No one has admitted to crying at all, and apparently that's a pre-requisite for it to actually 'be' crying. Or are you the cry overlord, master of the cry domain, he who determines what is and is not crying?
A) Who is obsessing over SWG? I know lots of anti TOR sentiment comes from folks that want a remake of SWG but I don't see that here in this thread so much.
As annoying as the 'SWG QQing' is the 'enough about SWG QQing', crying about crying runs thin as fast as crying.
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
That statement basically proves you are an idiot. No one has admitted to crying at all, and apparently that's a pre-requisite for it to actually 'be' crying. Or are you the cry overlord, master of the cry domain, he who determines what is and is not crying?
Go cry elsewhere tool.
I guess you're one to know sir. Well, farbeit my place to announce how distasteful it is to complain on TOR's forums about something that CLEARLY has nothing to do with TOR at all. In fact, moderators would well-serve this forum if they would kindly take the trolls out of the village.
I'm convinced that the purpose they serve here is virtually futile, so I am only suggesting that they move on.
But perhaps you aren't directing that statement at me, in which case, YEAH! Go somewhere else tool!
Comments
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
The only thing I can say is ToR really doesn't have a huge "fanboi" base, from what I have seen anyways. There are people that think the game looks good, but they also bring forth problems they see. They acknowledge they don't know more then the average person. But most of the time just because they are liking what they see, some asshat walks in and labels them a "fanboi".
The real funny part is people dropping in to demand changes because they know what the game is about, and how it plays out. Those people are worse then any fanboys, imo.
I've never been a big star wars fan, or really a major fan of anything.. I like what i like... and I liked what I saw of ToR and I liked both KOTOR games. Currently I know very little about what this game will turn into... as opposed to champions online or AION or Fallen Earth where information is readily available and there were tons of articles on the features each game has.
This isn't Open Beta where I'm saying, "No guys its cool, those bugs will be fixed, its still in beta." These are developer demo footage videos that show some parts of the gameplay. I also see the futility to whine and cry about trying to make this into a PreNGE SWG... its stupid.. it didn't work when SOE lost all their subs and it won't work now.
SO all I'm really saying is... let them make their game. When YOU guys make your own game, you can make it however you want. Let BioWare --- these creative professionals that will actually accomplish something --- make the game they envision making. Whats hard about that to understand?
I've never been a big star wars fan, or really a major fan of anything.. I like what i like... and I liked what I saw of ToR and I liked both KOTOR games. Currently I know very little about what this game will turn into... as opposed to champions online or AION or Fallen Earth where information is readily available and there were tons of articles on the features each game has.
This isn't Open Beta where I'm saying, "No guys its cool, those bugs will be fixed, its still in beta." These are developer demo footage videos that show some parts of the gameplay. I also see the futility to whine and cry about trying to make this into a PreNGE SWG... its stupid.. it didn't work when SOE lost all their subs and it won't work now.
SO all I'm really saying is... let them make their game. When YOU guys make your own game, you can make it however you want. Let BioWare --- these creative professionals that will actually accomplish something --- make the game they envision making. Whats hard about that to understand?
Everything you said is exactly what I was pointing out. You don't have to be a "fanboi" to like the direction this game is taking. Even with little info, you can see things you like and don't like. But ultimately you will not know the outcome until far more information is available. And right now, we really don't know anything.
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
full of fail
Stolen? Are you kidding me? They can rightfully change the game if they want. Even though it pissed people off, it's still there game. You should have gotten over this years ago you crying man child. And for what it's worth, I had five friends that played SWG Pre-CU with me. We are all very different people, and not a single one is blaming BioWare. Grow the hell up and get a pair.
What does AoC and War have to do with ToR? Are you suggesting that just because they are far different then SWG they are fail? Hell look at WoW, EvE, even L2 does better the SWG. Now and Pre-NGE. Nobody can predict ToRs outcome and be correct until that time arrives. You are just as blind as those "fanbois" are.
You are the minority, just your minority is so LOUD. Your little group of people are the last thing anybody should hear out. The little crybaby Vets have no rational thinking skills. If you did, you wouldn't still be crying, now would you? You can sit there and spew out random idiotic things day after day. But at the end of the day you and those other "250K" (yeah right) people are pathetic. keep doing what you do best, crying, you are actually helping. Keeping the game like it is means people like you wont be playing.
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
full of fail
BioWare should listen to you if they want their maximum subscriber base to be 300K which is by no way a majority. You already got a chance to voice your opinion. You get to vote with your wallet. If you didn't like the NGE, then you should've quit. I know I did. Not only did I quit but I got my money back for Trials of Obi Wan too.
Nobody owes you anything. As greed said its their game, that they can change when THEY want to. Was it a good idea to change it? NO. That was a completely different company. Why don't you go complain on the Guild Wars 2 forum about how much they want a SWG PreNGE style of gameplay? Why does it have to be ToR that you've decided to get all butt hurt on? This is not galaxies. If this is really the way you think the market for MMOs should be, then you would've been arguing that on every game, but you aren't.. you're arguing on a star wars game because you can't get over what you once had. The wake-up call is that you won't change BioWares vision of how they will make their game. They don't care about the meager subscription numbers you claim they would get. Go find a SWG emu or something to play, let BioWare have their shot.
Who the hell are you to tell others what they should and should not want? Sometimes trying to tell folks like you that SWG wasn't all that is like trying to tell a 6 year old that there is no Santa Claus. SWG was NOT this great groundbreaking game . If it was more people would have been playing it. Not everyone who experienced that game in its so-called heyday liked it. I sure as hell didn't and neither did many others which is why those changes were made in the first place.
What's sad is that folks like you in the minority(and you ARE the minority even around here) have this entitlment mentality. MMORPGs don't last forever. There have been many MMOs pulled from the market and that was it. No NGE, no second version nothing. Yet for some reason folks like yourself think that SWG had a different set of rules than the others. Nothing was stolen from you. You paid your $15.00 a month knowing that the game could be pulled or changed at a moments notice and if you didn't know that then you should learn to read those agreements before checking them off. SOE isn't responsible for your ignorance and neither are we. Grow up already and while you're at it learn some puncuation.
who am i? i am someone who had my game stolen from me i am part of a group of 250k players who watched $OE steal our game from us cuz they wanted more money and the only way to do that was to make our game more like the lame level based games like WoW. look around and you will see more and more people want a game like swg pre-cu and look at how well the level based games are doing
aoc is doing well oh wait its dieing a slow and painful death
war? oh thats right most people tried it and quit.
we are not in the minority we are the biggest group of players and on this site we are the ones who bioware should be hearing out. we have 250k people wanting a pre-cu game and tor should be that game or it's going to end up like aoc and the other level based games
full of fail
You 'know' this based on what? A few videos that show very little of the game? You know nothing other than general game type classification such as if it is sandbox or story/quest driven. The rest is quite unknown and will largely determine whether the game is good or not.
??? I was a day 1 SWG guy, I played right up until the first holocron hit and I quit because I knew the game was going to the toilet since they decided to offer Jedi to stem the cancels rather than fixing the things they launched broken. I came back a while later, around JTL and played for a while more though. To say SWG pre-cu was perfect and how all games should be is ridiculous and naive of the serious issues that the game had (namely an alpha class but also balance issues and other problems stemming from releasing before the game was ready). That is why they did the CU, and the NGE - because there where serious problems and subs where bleeding like crazy. Now, I do not agree with the changes of the CU or NGE but to deny that the game had serious and deep problems is to deny the reality of the situation as it was at the time.
People seem to romanticize SWG in a way that ignores teh reality of how many serious flaws the game had from an early launch. Do you not recall this is the game that pretty much invented the phrase 'flavor of the month' with each update completely NERFing last months overpowered build in favor of some new overpowered build. Do you not recall PokeMan pet wars, the commando flamethrower fiasco, the ability to pull three ATSTs and solo Krayts to farm scales? How about the smaller things like being able to plant a house in combat and enter and block out your attacker and myriad other PvP exploits such as the crazy TEF (temporary enemy flag) crap that made PvP heavily exploitable and often frustrating. What about later bugs like when you tried to attack someone and all they had to do was get in a buddies vehicle to avoid you, since you didn't have TEF on the vehicle owner you couldn't attack the vehicle and you had no way to target the player in the vehicle. Remember the fun of incapacitating someone and not letting them back up but not deathblowing them - basically a free pas to grief someone however you saw fit until changes came later. Remember half the classes/skillsets being either totally broken (bio engineer, droid engineer) or totally useless (initial melee classes).
These are just off the top of my head, there where many, many, many more serious bugs and major flaws that never got addressed and led to people canceling subs at a steep rate. This is why they cooked up the CU and NGE in a desperate effort to stop the downward spiral of the game, they actually made it worse but the action was inspired by all the real problems that existed in the game. There where tons and tons of major issues in SWG, not only at launch but all the way through to the CU and even up to the NGE. SWG was a great idea, a great unrealized idea, it shipped early and unfinished and never ever got fixed. SOE screwed things up not by ruining a perfect and ideal game but by refusing to fix the issues with the unfinished and flawed game they launched and then later but trying big sweeping changes (CU and NGE) in a wild stab in the dark at glossing over the problems.
Alpha classes do not work, this is an undeniable fact and it is the reason SWG collapsed and all the revamps where necessary. if you have a one certain path to power then everyone gravitates to that path and the game suffers dramatically as a result.
How is it hypocritical? All I am saying is that we do not know enough about the many details that are unknown to judge the game. All we know now is some very general things, yes it will not be sandbox but what kind of non sandbox game it will be is as of yet unknown to us. It could still end up being a decent game, even a great game, even if it is not a sandbox - the idea that all games that are not sandbox skill based games are completely terrible is a flawed premise. Yes, non sandbox might not be your preference and might be something that precludes you from liking an MMO but if you cannot recognize that as a preference then you are narrow minded and not really an MMO fan.
Think of a movie, there are dramas and thrillers and and horror and comedies and adventure movies and many others. All we know about TOR at this point is that it is drama and likely not a thriller (just picked to categories without any implied meaning). To say based on that category the game will suck is just ridiculous. There are good movies in all categories even ifyou may not not particularity like one category of movies.
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You 'know' this based on what? A few videos that show very little of the game? You know nothing other than general game type classification such as if it is sandbox or story/quest driven. The rest is quite unknown and will largely determine whether the game is good or not.
??? I was a day 1 SWG guy, I played right up until the first holocron hit and I quit because I knew the game was going to the toilet since they decided to offer Jedi to stem the cancels rather than fixing the things they launched broken. I came back a while later, around JTL and played for a while more though. To say SWG pre-cu was perfect and how all games should be is ridiculous and naive of the serious issues that the game had (namely an alpha class but also balance issues and other problems stemming from releasing before the game was ready). That is why they did the CU, and the NGE - because there where serious problems and subs where bleeding like crazy. Now, I do not agree with the changes of the CU or NGE but to deny that the game had serious and deep problems is to deny the reality of the situation as it was at the time.
People seem to romanticize SWG in a way that ignores teh reality of how many serious flaws the game had from an early launch. Do you not recall this is the game that pretty much invented the phrase 'flavor of the month' with each update completely NERFing last months overpowered build in favor of some new overpowered build. Do you not recall PokeMan pet wars, the commando flamethrower fiasco, the ability to pull three ATSTs and solo Krayts to farm scales? How about the smaller things like being able to plant a house in combat and enter and block out your attacker and myriad other PvP exploits such as the crazy TEF (temporary enemy flag) crap that made PvP heavily exploitable and often frustrating. What about later bugs like when you tried to attack someone and all they had to do was get in a buddies vehicle to avoid you, since you didn't have TEF on the vehicle owner you couldn't attack the vehicle and you had no way to target the player in the vehicle. Remember the fun of incapacitating someone and not letting them back up but not deathblowing them - basically a free pas to grief someone however you saw fit until changes came later. Remember half the classes/skillsets being either totally broken (bio engineer, droid engineer) or totally useless (initial melee classes).
These are just off the top of my head, there where many, many, many more serious bugs and major flaws that never got addressed and led to people canceling subs at a steep rate. This is why they cooked up the CU and NGE in a desperate effort to stop the downward spiral of the game, they actually made it worse but the action was inspired by all the real problems that existed in the game. There where tons and tons of major issues in SWG, not only at launch but all the way through to the CU and even up to the NGE. SWG was a great idea, a great unrealized idea, it shipped early and unfinished and never ever got fixed. SOE screwed things up not by ruining a perfect and ideal game but by refusing to fix the issues with the unfinished and flawed game they launched and then later but trying big sweeping changes (CU and NGE) in a wild stab in the dark at glossing over the problems.
Alpha classes do not work, this is an undeniable fact and it is the reason SWG collapsed and all the revamps where necessary. if you have a one certain path to power then everyone gravitates to that path and the game suffers dramatically as a result.
How is it hypocritical? All I am saying is that we do not know enough about the many details that are unknown to judge the game. All we know now is some very general things, yes it will not be sandbox but what kind of non sandbox game it will be is as of yet unknown to us. It could still end up being a decent game, even a great game, even if it is not a sandbox - the idea that all games that are not sandbox skill based games are completely terrible is a flawed premise. Yes, non sandbox might not be your preference and might be something that precludes you from liking an MMO but if you cannot recognize that as a preference then you are narrow minded and not really an MMO fan.
Think of a movie, there are dramas and thrillers and and horror and comedies and adventure movies and many others. All we know about TOR at this point is that it is drama and likely not a thriller (just picked to categories without any implied meaning). To say based on that category the game will suck is just ridiculous. There are good movies in all categories even ifyou may not not particularity like one category of movies.
Well said. I also find it interesting how some of these crazies try and whitewash the many problems with that game. I still remember the nerf wars that played out on the official forums. Anytime a skill was successful against jedi, the jedi community would demand that it be nerfed. Sure enough, the next patch comes out and it's nerfed. Then everyone else has to go thru the tedious process of regrinding their characters to the new FOTM. I've never seen a game actually ENCOURAGE exploiting and cheating like SWG did. I gave up sending tickets because they were never responded to or no action was taken. That spot on Kashyyk was never fixed and padawans would hop on it the minute a bounty hunter would enter the area. Jedi would complain of Bounty Hunters grouping up or hunting their own faction, but since jedi were so powerful, what other choice did they have?
Judging by that poster's rantings, it seems like he was a jedi player who got so used to being catered to by the devs that when the rug was pulled underneath him for the first time, he couldn't take it. The rest of us who experienced that on an almost monthly basis with nerfs to skills and weapons didn't matter as much.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Wow alot of hate towards SWG it seems. I thought the ToR preview looked pretty good, as to be expected of a great company like Bioware. I likely won't play it but hopefully the fans take it for what it is and like it.
I was expecting much more of LOTRO and slowly grew dissapointed to the point where I wont play Turbine mmos anymore. Hope for the best and plenty of future content to explore. If Bioware doesn't pull through and keep alot of the fans happy they may very well give themselves a bad name very quickly. A mmo take years to create, Bioware better deliver!!
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
AoC have somekind of a story thing going on and i didn't like it at all. Your forced to follow same stupid road over and over again...
MMORPG for me is a game that gives me the option to make my own character, looking like I do and I pick the my own road and I make my own history. being able to pick what side I wanna be on. Not being forced to be light or dark etc.
The freedom to explore and battle in huge areas, not small places that you must load to get inside. Or that you can't jump up on things to have some more fun.
Freedom! That is for me the best thing about some MMORPG.
Played:
From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
I see the thread on disgruntled SWG players has been taken down. You people can't take ANY criticism can you?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
BioWare isn't taking away your freedom... and rerolling characters will have completely different story lines... which supposedly a large part of the replayability factor. You are still free to make your choices and be in groups and PvP and travel the world.. I don't think we'll see very many hard set areas as it sounds like for the most part there will be a great amount of open world missions and activities.
Ideally, I agree that is the best part of an MMO. But with developments costs what they are they have to aim for wider audiences and that means guiding non old school MMOers along which means at least some, if not a lot, of the story type archetype stuff. I still think you can do both, at least do justice to one without forgetting the other, but that is the great challenge these developers face.
I think what folks are bemoaning, even myself to a degree, is that in today's story driven archetype class games you are not so much making your own character as you are unlocking the choices the DEVs already made. It is a valid criticism and the game that addresses it and succeeds with the story an mass appeal stuff will be the next big hit game, even if it is not a fullblown sandbox/skill based game.
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"I think what folks are bemoaning, even myself to a degree, is that in today's story driven archetype class games you are not so much making your own character as you are unlocking the choices the DEVs already made. It is a valid criticism and the game that addresses it and succeeds with the story an mass appeal stuff will be the next big hit game, even if it is not a fullblown sandbox/skill based game."
No, this in nonsense. You obviously don't want a cohesive story. You want a sandbox adventure, which is fine, but not at all the point of this game. In order to tell a good story, which IS the point of this game; it needs limitations, restrictions, and set roles. You can't have a cohesive, structured story while allowing everyone to do whatever they want. You make the characters you own by defining their personalities and making choices. Yes, you'll always be a "Sith Warrior", but you get to decide the ideology, personality, and morality of said Sith Warrior.
I am not being dismissive of this game, or other story games, I am just acknowledging the point at which such games lose people. I can appreciate a sandbox game for the freedom and a story game for the content even if I prefer a more sandbox oriented game. That being said, I think my original point that you quoted is very valid. For the most part people play RPGs for the pure story type experience, people play MMOs for the ability to insert their own character in to that story (at least to a degree). What has happened of late is that the story has made its way from RPGs to MMOs and done so in a way that supplanted the character building, inserting your own character in to the story, part of MMOs.
Take your last line, "you get to decide the ideology, personality, and morality". Show me a game where ideology, personality, and/or morality has any part, let alone significant part, of an MMO's gameplay. You cannot because it doesn't, so what I was saying is that in taking over the part of character building that developers have of late they are only leaving to players very non significant elements to insert themselves in to the story with. It doesn't mean the game will be bad, but it is something worth acknowledging and to many it is the reason they bemoan 'story' or 'archetype' games. The 'trick' is to do the story, even the archetype, but leave some meaningful things for the player to choose that directly affect not only ideology, personality, and/or morality but real gameplay attributes. This is key because the limitations of all these games is AI that can only really simulate combat which, as a result, remains the dominant gameplay element.
So as long as games are either you build the character (combat wise) sandbox or you level and unlock the character we made (again, combat wise) we made story driven they will find people on both sides that love/hate the game just for that reason. I was trying to suggest that a game that artfully integrates elements of both, even if favoring one of the other, will be the real success. To the sandbox folks I say give Bioware a chance and have argued as much here and elsewhere. However, that being said, if you fire up SW:TOR in the future and are pretty much just 'unlocking' dev built characters while playing through the story then the game will meet with limited success in so far as it won't appeal to those what want to insert their character into a great story/world. We shall see, I will certainly be playing when it is out to see where SW:TOR falls in the spectrum.
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I don#' think it is Bioware who are aiming high at all, it's actually prospective players expectations which are high.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
Please, for the love of MMOs, STOP obsessing over SWG! It's over. Done. The game still exists though, so go play IT! Go attack some zombies. Stop trying to convince ANOTHER developer to take action in awakening the beast. Your cries should be directed toward SOE and LA, NOT BW, although they should go unanswered because you guys are truly ridiculous.
Besides, TOR's storyline is FAR richer in depth and almost limitless in developmental possibilities than the latter. Not to mention, it contrasts well with the idea of everyone being a hero in their own right.
Stop crying. Go somewhere else to troll your miserable angles on the progression of the Star Wars MMOs and their franchise options and allow for those of us who aren't against this forum to discuss some serious, developmental issues within the game.
THE Rooster Nash
A) Who is obsessing over SWG? I know lots of anti TOR sentiment comes from folks that want a remake of SWG but I don't see that here in this thread so much.
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The main source of the hate for this comes form the "pre-cu4tw" type of ex-swg players. They essentially wanted swg 2 and aren't getting it and are now venting their nerd rage.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Bah, I say let the haters hate. It will play out like Fox News and Mass Effect XD Then again, I haven't shown any sign of clairvoyance in the past...er...well, ever, so, I could be wrong, sure. I'm just saying, everyone has their standards, and I hope (expect) Bioware to fill most standards. Even if it turns out to be the most fantastic game since Tetris (or something), there will be people who will find an excuse to belittle the game. That's their right, I guess...(or wrong, if you want to get punny).
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
When a man demands his wife/significant... whatever to stop crying, would you really consider that crying as well? I don't think so, but perhaps (and this is where your intelligence begins to fumble the ball) our logistics are polar in comparisson. Perhaps it is better even to state that I am no where near your level of expertise in the matters of crying and demanding.
However, it has been my experience that when someone demands, someone ELSE cries. Usually the one demanding is my cheerleading coach, so I can only bet you'll guess who cries under those circumstances... And so I feel compelled to repeat my coach's despotic approach by acting out on these forums against nursery rhyme-humming, shoes-on-the-wrong-feet-wearing, "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids"-enjoying, thumb-sucking, bed-wetting, googoogaagaaing, toy-breaking, SWG QQing, poddy-training tikes such as yourself. While you are entitled to your opinion, many of your colleagues tend to give off a matter-of-fact approach which is in no way necessary when regarding BioWare (who didn't have ANYTHING to do with SWG).
But I digress. While it's not to say that I have an issue with sticking your nose in the corner for a 5 minute time out (1 minute for every year of your life), I don't really feel the need to further belittle you in any way.
Instead, what I'm trying to convey here is a sense of pity in the form of a stfu, if only because you guys are beginning to sound a little redundant in your message; a message that advocates of a well-rounded, Old Republic-based MMORPG don't really care to hear.
In conclusion, feel free to continue crying. I will no longer demand a subject change from you. I can't say the same for my colleagues, but I think my point has been made (assuming you can comprehend logic).
THE Rooster Nash
Give TOR a chance, I must admit I was taken back alittle by the non sandbox gameplay style, but, I won't knock it till I try it.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
That statement basically proves you are an idiot. No one has admitted to crying at all, and apparently that's a pre-requisite for it to actually 'be' crying. Or are you the cry overlord, master of the cry domain, he who determines what is and is not crying?
Go cry elsewhere tool.
What gave you the impression that our DEMAND for the "SWG QQing" to cease was in any sense a form of crying?
That statement basically proves you are an idiot. No one has admitted to crying at all, and apparently that's a pre-requisite for it to actually 'be' crying. Or are you the cry overlord, master of the cry domain, he who determines what is and is not crying?
Go cry elsewhere tool.
I guess you're one to know sir. Well, farbeit my place to announce how distasteful it is to complain on TOR's forums about something that CLEARLY has nothing to do with TOR at all. In fact, moderators would well-serve this forum if they would kindly take the trolls out of the village.
I'm convinced that the purpose they serve here is virtually futile, so I am only suggesting that they move on.
But perhaps you aren't directing that statement at me, in which case, YEAH! Go somewhere else tool!
THE Rooster Nash