You guys were ruled by an idiot for 8 years and now you complain about Obama? Gosh, some Americans are unbelievable. Even if you are a war-petrol-and-destruction-loving Republican, you have to admit that Bush was not the most suitable person to be the leader of the most advanced and powerful country in the world!
In the next election, just vote for the dumbest guy possible. That way, you will at least know you cannot expect much and everyone will be happy. Obama's biggest challenge is the Americans expectations from him. Something that was not the case with Bush! He was just to stupid and corrupt for people to expect anything from him...
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Yes even if they are extremely poor, no one is denied healthcare in America. To go further on that I mean no one is denied it even the 40 million illegal aliens.
Is this why the States are ranked 46 (according to the CIA factbook) in infant mortality? That is 2 places below Cuba, by the way...
I don't know what that means, do you know that California is the 6th largest economy in the world. Provide a link to your data btw, I'm not saying your wrong just want to dig deeper into your theory that Americans do not receive healthcare.
The issue isn't just that Americans don't have access to health care (because for the most part everyone does have access to basic health care through the ER if nothing else). The bigger issue is that the U.S. spends more money per person on health care but when compared to every other industrialized country get relatively little "bang for our buck." Not only do we rank low in infant mortality, but also total life expectancy (compared to other industrialized countries). Unfortunately what the Democrats have offered, even at its most liberal point before being watered down, is not even close to enough to nudge us up. Ah well, such is life:)
I also live in America, and I completely disagree with Mazin in almost every way. Let's start off by saying that yes, for the most part, if you are DYING, a doctor will save you. That's like your story Mazin -- you need something done, and with or without health insurance, you can get it done. But then what happens? The thing that can happen ONLY IN AMERICA. Going bankrupt from medical costs. Almost no other country in the nation allows you to go bankrupt because of medical costs? Why? Because it is ludicrous! You say your grandma or mother is only paying 5 dollars a month on a huge bill? There IS something they can do to her, and there already is -- her credit score is probably shot to hell, and eventually she may be forced into bankruptcy. Now, to you that might be nothing, and if she's already really old it might not be a big deal. Now what happens if you're 25 and get a horrible injury? In other countries, you're taken care of. In America, you're taken care of, but then you pay 30,000 dollars -- that's a year's salary for some people. That's double my college loans. How is that a good system? Yes, America has great healthcare. That's because we charge up the ass for it. The problem with insurance now is they are private companies. You say health insurance companies don't want to run in the red -- exactly! Their goal is to make money. In many other countries, health insurance companies are NON-PROFITS. They aren't trying to make money, only stay afloat to help people. I am lucky enough to have a job that gives me full benefits, but many other people are not. And if you can't afford health insurance, then you definitely can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars to get healthcare out of pocket. Yes, you'll be saved. But the rest of your life will be ruined by debt. The problem with republicans, as evidenced by Mazin, is that if they see something for themselves they automatically think it's true for the entire nation. "If I can do this, everyone can." But everyone can't. That's the problem.
Point taken, then make the companies non-profit and confomr to all non-profit laws and regulations.
DO NOT let the government officials get their greedy paws on it. Once they get involved they ABUSE the system, THEY will not utilize this "NEW" health care.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
I also live in America, and I completely disagree with Mazin in almost every way. Let's start off by saying that yes, for the most part, if you are DYING, a doctor will save you. That's like your story Mazin -- you need something done, and with or without health insurance, you can get it done. But then what happens? The thing that can happen ONLY IN AMERICA. Going bankrupt from medical costs. Almost no other country in the nation allows you to go bankrupt because of medical costs? Why? Because it is ludicrous! You say your grandma or mother is only paying 5 dollars a month on a huge bill? There IS something they can do to her, and there already is -- her credit score is probably shot to hell, and eventually she may be forced into bankruptcy. Now, to you that might be nothing, and if she's already really old it might not be a big deal. Now what happens if you're 25 and get a horrible injury? In other countries, you're taken care of. In America, you're taken care of, but then you pay 30,000 dollars -- that's a year's salary for some people. That's double my college loans. How is that a good system? Yes, America has great healthcare. That's because we charge up the ass for it. The problem with insurance now is they are private companies. You say health insurance companies don't want to run in the red -- exactly! Their goal is to make money. In many other countries, health insurance companies are NON-PROFITS. They aren't trying to make money, only stay afloat to help people. I am lucky enough to have a job that gives me full benefits, but many other people are not. And if you can't afford health insurance, then you definitely can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars to get healthcare out of pocket. Yes, you'll be saved. But the rest of your life will be ruined by debt. The problem with republicans, as evidenced by Mazin, is that if they see something for themselves they automatically think it's true for the entire nation. "If I can do this, everyone can." But everyone can't. That's the problem.
Look man I agree a lot with what your saying here. I lost my job recently and atm I do not have healthcare insurance, but that doesn't mean I want our system to be radically changed.
Just for example, haven't heard this anywhere this is just an idea I thought of at this very moment, what if Americans were given a 150% credit for charitable contributions to these non-profit hospitals on there tax returns? Think of the money that could be raised keeping our gov't basically out of the equation.
I don't want to be forced by my government into a system that from the example of other countries leads to rationing
I agree there need to be regulation change and price gouging oversight, but radically changing our system no.
I also live in America, and I completely disagree with Mazin in almost every way. Let's start off by saying that yes, for the most part, if you are DYING, a doctor will save you. That's like your story Mazin -- you need something done, and with or without health insurance, you can get it done. But then what happens? The thing that can happen ONLY IN AMERICA. Going bankrupt from medical costs. Almost no other country in the nation allows you to go bankrupt because of medical costs? Why? Because it is ludicrous! You say your grandma or mother is only paying 5 dollars a month on a huge bill? There IS something they can do to her, and there already is -- her credit score is probably shot to hell, and eventually she may be forced into bankruptcy. Now, to you that might be nothing, and if she's already really old it might not be a big deal. Now what happens if you're 25 and get a horrible injury? In other countries, you're taken care of. In America, you're taken care of, but then you pay 30,000 dollars -- that's a year's salary for some people. That's double my college loans. How is that a good system? Yes, America has great healthcare. That's because we charge up the ass for it. The problem with insurance now is they are private companies. You say health insurance companies don't want to run in the red -- exactly! Their goal is to make money. In many other countries, health insurance companies are NON-PROFITS. They aren't trying to make money, only stay afloat to help people. I am lucky enough to have a job that gives me full benefits, but many other people are not. And if you can't afford health insurance, then you definitely can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars to get healthcare out of pocket. Yes, you'll be saved. But the rest of your life will be ruined by debt. The problem with republicans, as evidenced by Mazin, is that if they see something for themselves they automatically think it's true for the entire nation. "If I can do this, everyone can." But everyone can't. That's the problem.
Point taken, then make the companies non-profit and confomr to all non-profit laws and regulations.
DO NOT let the government officials get their greedy paws on it. Once they get involved they ABUSE the system, THEY will not utilize this "NEW" health care.
I actually agree with this to an extent, and the main reason it doesn't happen is because its even more politically unviable than creating a "medicare for all" type of program which in and of itself would solve the problem for the American people as far as health care and health insurance goes, but would lead to a budgetary crisis infinitely worse than what we have now.
The issue is also that many Americans are denied healthcare because of pre-existing conditions. Along with the problems that poses to getting adequate treatment and cures it also forces many families into financial and personal ruin.
And thank you to those Americans who chimed in here with real knowledge and a clear point of view showing we're not all just blind baffoons swallowing the nonsense the GOP and others are tossing out. Mazin you should be ashamed of yourself.
The issue is also that many Americans are denied healthcare because of pre-existing conditions. Along with the problems that poses to getting adequate treatment and cures it also forces many families into financial and personal ruin.
And thank you to those Americans who chimed in here with real knowledge and a clear point of view showing we're not all just blind baffoons swallowing the nonsense the GOP and others are tossing out. Mazin you should be ashamed of yourself.
Originally posted by NovaKayne DO NOT let the government officials get their greedy paws on it. Once they get involved they ABUSE the system, THEY will not utilize this "NEW" health care.
Then we elect new officials (shrug).
The thing that I don't get is why Republicans fear the government so much. At least we have the means to influence the system when it is under government control.
Perhaps because they themselves rule in an authoritarian fashion when they get a chance, so they assume that's how government should be run.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Is it safe to say we agree that changes should be made to lower costs but, keep the Government from running the system?
So, does anyone have any IDEA as to where the relevant HIGH costs are coming from? Why has this grown to gigantic propertions over the last 10-15 years?
Anyone?
Personally, I just do not see Government as an answer to lower costs. I feel they only add beurocrosy and red tape that prolongs, slows down response and increases costs.
It is easy for all of us to spout the rhetoric of what we believe, been told to believe, or raised to believe. It is another thing to have some answers.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
I would like to respond to several issues raised in this thread. First I am a citzen of the US. I do not have Health Care because I have been denied coverage because of an existing conditon. (Damged Heart )
Medicine in this country is socialized in the sense that tax dollars or tax exemptions are used to cover the elderly, poor and disabled in Medicare and Medicad. The goverment gives Tax breaks to companys to offer insurance to its workers. So one way or the other Federal money or favorable terms allow many many millions of people to have coverage. So this fear fails to move me much at all. As to the issue of being able to choose your Doctor's my wife has insurance and they require you to use in program DR's if you want them to pay full price.
You can get Healthcare in the United States. You can go to Dr's Office and the Emergency Room to recieve care. However Most test that you may need to have run can cost you many thousands of dollars. Hosptials generall will work with you to make payments but it can quickly get beyond your abiltiy to pay if they order multible test which is not that uncommon (in my experience)
As to the issue of Govt stfling the insurance companies that seems to be way a way overblown fear IMO. The insurance compaines have no real competion because they work in cartels to control costs and dictate the terms of coverage in the various regions of the Country. Secondly the one area where the goverment had a monolopy is the US post office. Now if you live in the US you know it is being killed by the compeition of the private sector. So the issue to me is not that the Govt would kill compeition but that at long last it would provide it.
These are my thoughts and understanding of this issue. I understand many disagree as is there right but I thought I would share my feelings.
You guys were ruled by an idiot for 8 years and now you complain about Obama? Gosh, some Americans are unbelievable. Even if you are a war-petrol-and-destruction-loving Republican, you have to admit that Bush was not the most suitable person to be the leader of the most advanced and powerful country in the world!
In the next election, just vote for the dumbest guy possible. That way, you will at least know you cannot expect much and everyone will be happy. Obama's biggest challenge is the Americans expectations from him. Something that was not the case with Bush! He was just to stupid and corrupt for people to expect anything from him...
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
Wonder how many Swedes were involved in that land grab?
I also live in America, and I completely disagree with Mazin in almost every way. Let's start off by saying that yes, for the most part, if you are DYING, a doctor will save you. That's like your story Mazin -- you need something done, and with or without health insurance, you can get it done. But then what happens? The thing that can happen ONLY IN AMERICA. Going bankrupt from medical costs. Almost no other country in the nation allows you to go bankrupt because of medical costs? Why? Because it is ludicrous! You say your grandma or mother is only paying 5 dollars a month on a huge bill? There IS something they can do to her, and there already is -- her credit score is probably shot to hell, and eventually she may be forced into bankruptcy. Now, to you that might be nothing, and if she's already really old it might not be a big deal. Now what happens if you're 25 and get a horrible injury? In other countries, you're taken care of. In America, you're taken care of, but then you pay 30,000 dollars -- that's a year's salary for some people. That's double my college loans. How is that a good system? Yes, America has great healthcare. That's because we charge up the ass for it. The problem with insurance now is they are private companies. You say health insurance companies don't want to run in the red -- exactly! Their goal is to make money. In many other countries, health insurance companies are NON-PROFITS. They aren't trying to make money, only stay afloat to help people. I am lucky enough to have a job that gives me full benefits, but many other people are not. And if you can't afford health insurance, then you definitely can't afford the tens of thousands of dollars to get healthcare out of pocket. Yes, you'll be saved. But the rest of your life will be ruined by debt. The problem with republicans, as evidenced by Mazin, is that if they see something for themselves they automatically think it's true for the entire nation. "If I can do this, everyone can." But everyone can't. That's the problem.
Very well put. Something as crucial as health care should NEVER be put in the hands of private corporations who care more about making a profit than to help people. You can even get a hint from the word health CARE. That means you provide care for people and that should not be subject to the maximize profit rule that most private companies adhere to.
Some americans seem to think that everything state controlled is evil but think about your army, it is state controlled as well. Would you like it to be in the hands of private corporations who follows their interest rather than the interest of the US?
Same applies to health care. Do you want private corporations running it who follows their interest or the goverment who follows the interest of the country and its people?
Sure you can have private health care as an option and, from what I heard, that is excactly what Obama will propose. To keep private health care as an option but to also have state run health care which gives affordable, adequate health care to ALL.
You americans should be proud of Obama. I wish Sweden had such a bright, compassionate and charismatic politician as Obama.
The real question is why is this in SWG Refuge? Oh, and why should people with money be FORCED to pay for the people without money? Doesn't sound right to me.
You already do that, it is called taxes, and one of the sacrifices you make for living in a society that cares for its citizens.
It amazes me it took this long for America to get what everyone else in the developed world has had it in some cases for nearly 60 years . Its actually quite a disgrace that its taken so long in the worlds richest country . I think its brilliant that finally that not only the richer half of the nation will get access to decent medical care . In the UK there were right wing opponents to the health service now they support it . Once its implimented theres no going back and woe betide any one that trys . I just love how people like the OP must be grinding their teeth at night because of it . All i can say to the likes of him welcome to the20 th century .
( i knows it ths 21 st but lets face it most of us had free health care last century ).
GOOD FOR AMERICA . I m actually starting to like your country again after feeling sheer hate towards it for the last 8 years . Its going to take a while for the rest of the world to trust you again after burning so many bridges but your finally heading in the right direction .
The real question is why is this in SWG Refuge? Oh, and why should people with money be FORCED to pay for the people without money? Doesn't sound right to me.
You already do that, it is called taxes, and one of the sacrifices you make for living in a society that cares for its citizens.
I didn't ask if I did it, I asked why I did it. We pay taxes for things everyone needs, such as Police/fire departments, military spending, whatever. But health care isn't a national need as most already have it. The question is why should someone with money be forced to pay for someone without money? If I have money, and thus I have health insurance, why do I have to pay for the guy that doesn't?
Why is the poor guy entitled to my money? Same goes the other way around. I would in no way feel entitled to free things just because I couldn't afford them.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You guys were ruled by an idiot for 8 years and now you complain about Obama? Gosh, some Americans are unbelievable. Even if you are a war-petrol-and-destruction-loving Republican, you have to admit that Bush was not the most suitable person to be the leader of the most advanced and powerful country in the world!
In the next election, just vote for the dumbest guy possible. That way, you will at least know you cannot expect much and everyone will be happy. Obama's biggest challenge is the Americans expectations from him. Something that was not the case with Bush! He was just to stupid and corrupt for people to expect anything from him...
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Give into your anger.. haha.
Crusaders where just people who believed in stuff that dont exist, the only difference from today is that if you said you didnt believe them then they killed you for it. The sooner religion goes away and we spend our time just helping eachother the sooner we can evolve. But a brainwashed patriot would not know anything about that so I guess we just have to wait 200 years more before people realize whats going on.
There really shouldn't be an issue with a reform of healthcare services. Yes cheap healthcare for the huddled masses yearning for a better quality of life. But that doesn't mean it's going to be AMAZING health care where they can just jump lines to the front of organ doner lists, to the front of chemo therapy.
That's why the private insurance companies exist, for the rich ass who makes 6 figures a year and can afford a $400 insurance premium per month. But for those of us who are in college, who's places of part time employment don't offer health insurance we need something, and our state health care system is a joke (Washington). I was on state medical until I was 19 years old when I was cut from the insurance plan because of my age, and you know how much out of pocket my mother had to pay for any injury's? Most state health care systems require massive co-pays for treatment, and medication.
So instead of screaming about big government, and large democratic budgets, how about you look at the bigger picture. Sure smaller government can work... when your country isn't made up of 300,000,000 cry baby's who are incapable of taking care of themselves because of an education system that's collapsing under budget cuts to fuel the might US war machine... that seems to have 134 F22 Raptors just lying around that it's never even used.
@ Abrahmm: One way or the other you're going to pay. Right now you pay through higher hospital costs, medicine costs, ambulance service costs, insurance premium costs, unnecessary tests, and the like.
As for the why, that was already answered. If you prefer to not pay then I'll say good luck with that one... There are certain things required of citizens living in countries. Otherwise you're not free to live there or are penalized by law. Ours has taxes as a requirement that are handed out for certain perks and programs deemed necessary by our government.
If you don't like how our government manages your tax money then you're free to express your disapproval mainly with your vote. There are many countries that are taxed and their people can't say a word about how much or how it's used. If you'd like to find a more suitable country for your beliefs concerning how your taxes are used and for whom, goodluck.
There really shouldn't be an issue with a reform of healthcare services. Yes cheap healthcare for the huddled masses yearning for a better quality of life. But that doesn't mean it's going to be AMAZING health care where they can just jump lines to the front of organ doner lists, to the front of chemo therapy. That's why the private insurance companies exist, for the rich ass who makes 6 figures a year and can afford a $400 insurance premium per month. But for those of us who are in college, who's places of part time employment don't offer health insurance we need something, and our state health care system is a joke (Washington). I was on state medical until I was 19 years old when I was cut from the insurance plan because of my age, and you know how much out of pocket my mother had to pay for any injury's? Most state health care systems require massive co-pays for treatment, and medication. So instead of screaming about big government, and large democratic budgets, how about you look at the bigger picture. Sure smaller government can work... when your country isn't made up of 300,000,000 cry baby's who are incapable of taking care of themselves because of an education system that's collapsing under budget cuts to fuel the might US war machine... that seems to have 134 F22 Raptors just lying around that it's never even used.
Wow, you wnet there.
War machine. yeah... you win. colapsing under budget custs to fuel it and not the trillions to banks and other big corps that have their hands in the pockets of the governemnt officials.
Let me tell you something, Government either has their pockets lined by some corp selling weapons or some corp needing banking bailouts or de-regulation. What makess you think the insurance companies are not finding some way to benefit here?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Universal heathcare is a preventive method in most cases. Meaning that people will actually go to see doctor before they get serious symptons or are dying. It works very well in Scandinavia, I do not think there are many people in my country who would advocate against it. Benefits far outweight the negatives.
Much of the opposition to healthcare reform (or universal healthcare) in the US is down to cultural differences. You have been "hardwired" to detest anything that includes words like "social" etc. It is pretty unique factor in your country and it is understandable, but looking from outside it often does look ridiculous/weird.
You do know that cutting down a fraction of your defense budget would allow universal healthcare in your country and could even extend it to immigrants as well
I think 2003 (might have been 2007) you spend like ~$160 billion to fight terrorism, which that year killed only 63 Americans world-wide. Just check how many Americans die a year due to a lack of healthcare or medicines.
However, I would personally support it in the following way in the US.
- A federal law that requires STATES to provide universal healthcare.
- States can decide themselves how to handle, organise and pay for it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Give into your anger.. haha.
Crusaders where just people who believed in stuff that dont exist, the only difference from today is that if you said you didnt believe them then they killed you for it. The sooner religion goes away and we spend our time just helping eachother the sooner we can evolve. But a brainwashed patriot would not know anything about that so I guess we just have to wait 200 years more before people realize whats going on.
Hehe, give into my anger? Taliban will kill you today if you tell them you do not believe in their version of God. No difference today than then.
As for the brainwashed patriot. My friend, if I were a brainwashed patriot I would be all of the goverment solution. I am all for charities giving helping hands and working with those who need it. I believe we all should give to charities ( and I do, not just for tax purposes ). The government also rewards you for giving to charities by giving you tax breaks for charitable contributions.
So, I say give the the Shriners, give to other charities that money you so want the goverment to take from you. Let the Charities help out where it is needed. Let the local governments ( county, state ) provide the health care.
I do not get the mental breakdown where people say their State Health Care is poop and they believe the Federal Version will be better. You cannot have it both ways, you either believe the government is incompetent or you do not. If they are incompetent at the state level, what makes you believe the Federal level will be any better?????
Seriously, look at what is being said here.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Originally posted by Mazin <Left============================Center========================Right> Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
As far as theory of politics goes, this is very simplistic and also wrong. You can have anarchy on both sides and you can have totalitarian regimes on both sides as well. I quote the following from Wikipedia, which contains a wealth of very neutral information about politics:
"Generally speaking, it can be said that the right wing often values tradition and social stratification while the left wing often values reform and egalitarianism."
It seems that in the States you define the world around what policies and actions your governments want to push. The whole American ideology still revolves around the Cold-War anti-communist passion. "We are free people, they are communists". This is far from the truth and if you want to have a serious opinion about these matters, you need to read and break loose from what McCarthy was preaching in the 50's.
Universal heathcare is a preventive method in most cases. Meaning that people will actually go to see doctor before they get serious symptons or are dying. It works very well in Scandinavia, I do not think there are many people in my country who would advocate against it. Benefits far outweight the negatives. Much of the opposition to healthcare reform (or universal healthcare) in the US is down to cultural differences. You have been "hardwired" to detest anything that includes words like "social" etc. It is pretty unique factor in your country and it is understandable, but looking from outside it often does look ridiculous/weird. You do know that cutting down a fraction of your defense budget would allow universal healthcare in your country and could even extend it to immigrants as well I think 2003 (might have been 2007) you spend like ~$160 billion to fight terrorism, which that year killed only 63 Americans world-wide. Just check how many Americans die a year due to a lack of healthcare or medicines. However, I would personally support it in the following way in the US. - A federal law that requires STATES to provide universal healthcare. - States can decide themselves how to handle, organise and pay for it.
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Originally posted by Mazin <Left============================Center========================Right> Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
As far as theory of politics goes, this is very simplistic and also wrong. You can have anarchy on both sides and you can have totalitarian regimes on both sides as well. I quote the following from Wikipedia, which contains a wealth of very neutral information about politics:
"Generally speaking, it can be said that the right wing often values tradition and social stratification while the left wing often values reform and egalitarianism."
It seems that in the States you define the world around what policies and actions your governments want to push. The whole American ideology still revolves around the Cold-War anti-communist passion. "We are free people, they are communists". This is far from the truth and if you want to have a serious opinion about these matters, you need to read and break loose from what McCarthy was preaching in the 50's.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Comments
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
<Left============================Center========================Right>
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Even if they are extremely poor?
Yes even if they are extremely poor, no one is denied healthcare in America. To go further on that I mean no one is denied it even the 40 million illegal aliens.
Is this why the States are ranked 46 (according to the CIA factbook) in infant mortality? That is 2 places below Cuba, by the way...
I don't know what that means, do you know that California is the 6th largest economy in the world. Provide a link to your data btw, I'm not saying your wrong just want to dig deeper into your theory that Americans do not receive healthcare.
The issue isn't just that Americans don't have access to health care (because for the most part everyone does have access to basic health care through the ER if nothing else). The bigger issue is that the U.S. spends more money per person on health care but when compared to every other industrialized country get relatively little "bang for our buck." Not only do we rank low in infant mortality, but also total life expectancy (compared to other industrialized countries). Unfortunately what the Democrats have offered, even at its most liberal point before being watered down, is not even close to enough to nudge us up. Ah well, such is life:)
Point taken, then make the companies non-profit and confomr to all non-profit laws and regulations.
DO NOT let the government officials get their greedy paws on it. Once they get involved they ABUSE the system, THEY will not utilize this "NEW" health care.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Look man I agree a lot with what your saying here. I lost my job recently and atm I do not have healthcare insurance, but that doesn't mean I want our system to be radically changed.
Just for example, haven't heard this anywhere this is just an idea I thought of at this very moment, what if Americans were given a 150% credit for charitable contributions to these non-profit hospitals on there tax returns? Think of the money that could be raised keeping our gov't basically out of the equation.
I don't want to be forced by my government into a system that from the example of other countries leads to rationing
I agree there need to be regulation change and price gouging oversight, but radically changing our system no.
Point taken, then make the companies non-profit and confomr to all non-profit laws and regulations.
DO NOT let the government officials get their greedy paws on it. Once they get involved they ABUSE the system, THEY will not utilize this "NEW" health care.
I actually agree with this to an extent, and the main reason it doesn't happen is because its even more politically unviable than creating a "medicare for all" type of program which in and of itself would solve the problem for the American people as far as health care and health insurance goes, but would lead to a budgetary crisis infinitely worse than what we have now.
The issue is also that many Americans are denied healthcare because of pre-existing conditions. Along with the problems that poses to getting adequate treatment and cures it also forces many families into financial and personal ruin.
And thank you to those Americans who chimed in here with real knowledge and a clear point of view showing we're not all just blind baffoons swallowing the nonsense the GOP and others are tossing out. Mazin you should be ashamed of yourself.
Live free or die, whatever man
Then we elect new officials (shrug).
The thing that I don't get is why Republicans fear the government so much. At least we have the means to influence the system when it is under government control.
Perhaps because they themselves rule in an authoritarian fashion when they get a chance, so they assume that's how government should be run.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Is it safe to say we agree that changes should be made to lower costs but, keep the Government from running the system?
So, does anyone have any IDEA as to where the relevant HIGH costs are coming from? Why has this grown to gigantic propertions over the last 10-15 years?
Anyone?
Personally, I just do not see Government as an answer to lower costs. I feel they only add beurocrosy and red tape that prolongs, slows down response and increases costs.
It is easy for all of us to spout the rhetoric of what we believe, been told to believe, or raised to believe. It is another thing to have some answers.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
I would like to respond to several issues raised in this thread. First I am a citzen of the US. I do not have Health Care because I have been denied coverage because of an existing conditon. (Damged Heart )
Medicine in this country is socialized in the sense that tax dollars or tax exemptions are used to cover the elderly, poor and disabled in Medicare and Medicad. The goverment gives Tax breaks to companys to offer insurance to its workers. So one way or the other Federal money or favorable terms allow many many millions of people to have coverage. So this fear fails to move me much at all. As to the issue of being able to choose your Doctor's my wife has insurance and they require you to use in program DR's if you want them to pay full price.
You can get Healthcare in the United States. You can go to Dr's Office and the Emergency Room to recieve care. However Most test that you may need to have run can cost you many thousands of dollars. Hosptials generall will work with you to make payments but it can quickly get beyond your abiltiy to pay if they order multible test which is not that uncommon (in my experience)
As to the issue of Govt stfling the insurance companies that seems to be way a way overblown fear IMO. The insurance compaines have no real competion because they work in cartels to control costs and dictate the terms of coverage in the various regions of the Country. Secondly the one area where the goverment had a monolopy is the US post office. Now if you live in the US you know it is being killed by the compeition of the private sector. So the issue to me is not that the Govt would kill compeition but that at long last it would provide it.
These are my thoughts and understanding of this issue. I understand many disagree as is there right but I thought I would share my feelings.
I hope you all have a great day!
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
<Left============================Center========================Right>
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
Wonder how many Swedes were involved in that land grab?
Very well put. Something as crucial as health care should NEVER be put in the hands of private corporations who care more about making a profit than to help people. You can even get a hint from the word health CARE. That means you provide care for people and that should not be subject to the maximize profit rule that most private companies adhere to.
Some americans seem to think that everything state controlled is evil but think about your army, it is state controlled as well. Would you like it to be in the hands of private corporations who follows their interest rather than the interest of the US?
Same applies to health care. Do you want private corporations running it who follows their interest or the goverment who follows the interest of the country and its people?
Sure you can have private health care as an option and, from what I heard, that is excactly what Obama will propose. To keep private health care as an option but to also have state run health care which gives affordable, adequate health care to ALL.
You americans should be proud of Obama. I wish Sweden had such a bright, compassionate and charismatic politician as Obama.
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The real question is why is this in SWG Refuge?
Oh, and why should people with money be FORCED to pay for the people without money? Doesn't sound right to me.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
You already do that, it is called taxes, and one of the sacrifices you make for living in a society that cares for its citizens.
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It amazes me it took this long for America to get what everyone else in the developed world has had it in some cases for nearly 60 years . Its actually quite a disgrace that its taken so long in the worlds richest country . I think its brilliant that finally that not only the richer half of the nation will get access to decent medical care . In the UK there were right wing opponents to the health service now they support it . Once its implimented theres no going back and woe betide any one that trys . I just love how people like the OP must be grinding their teeth at night because of it . All i can say to the likes of him welcome to the20 th century .
( i knows it ths 21 st but lets face it most of us had free health care last century ).
GOOD FOR AMERICA . I m actually starting to like your country again after feeling sheer hate towards it for the last 8 years . Its going to take a while for the rest of the world to trust you again after burning so many bridges but your finally heading in the right direction .
You already do that, it is called taxes, and one of the sacrifices you make for living in a society that cares for its citizens.
I didn't ask if I did it, I asked why I did it. We pay taxes for things everyone needs, such as Police/fire departments, military spending, whatever. But health care isn't a national need as most already have it. The question is why should someone with money be forced to pay for someone without money? If I have money, and thus I have health insurance, why do I have to pay for the guy that doesn't?
Why is the poor guy entitled to my money? Same goes the other way around. I would in no way feel entitled to free things just because I couldn't afford them.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
And that's why Obama won the election, because most Americans were so fed up with Bush, yes even Republicans. America is a center country, Obama is far left.
He is popular, yes. He's policies are not.
If you read on international politics, you will find out that what you consider "far-left", is conservative or center-right in most European countries. But, even for the States, Obama is not far-left....
<Left============================Center========================Right>
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground No gov't anarachy
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Or maybe just do the right thing and give the land back to the indians that was there long long before some moron came and just claimed someone elses land.
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Give into your anger.. haha.
Crusaders where just people who believed in stuff that dont exist, the only difference from today is that if you said you didnt believe them then they killed you for it. The sooner religion goes away and we spend our time just helping eachother the sooner we can evolve. But a brainwashed patriot would not know anything about that so I guess we just have to wait 200 years more before people realize whats going on.
There really shouldn't be an issue with a reform of healthcare services. Yes cheap healthcare for the huddled masses yearning for a better quality of life. But that doesn't mean it's going to be AMAZING health care where they can just jump lines to the front of organ doner lists, to the front of chemo therapy.
That's why the private insurance companies exist, for the rich ass who makes 6 figures a year and can afford a $400 insurance premium per month. But for those of us who are in college, who's places of part time employment don't offer health insurance we need something, and our state health care system is a joke (Washington). I was on state medical until I was 19 years old when I was cut from the insurance plan because of my age, and you know how much out of pocket my mother had to pay for any injury's? Most state health care systems require massive co-pays for treatment, and medication.
So instead of screaming about big government, and large democratic budgets, how about you look at the bigger picture. Sure smaller government can work... when your country isn't made up of 300,000,000 cry baby's who are incapable of taking care of themselves because of an education system that's collapsing under budget cuts to fuel the might US war machine... that seems to have 134 F22 Raptors just lying around that it's never even used.
Played - EQ 1/2, WoW, SWG, SWTOR, GW 1/2 UO, STO, CO, DCUO, AO, Rift.
@ Abrahmm: One way or the other you're going to pay. Right now you pay through higher hospital costs, medicine costs, ambulance service costs, insurance premium costs, unnecessary tests, and the like.
As for the why, that was already answered. If you prefer to not pay then I'll say good luck with that one... There are certain things required of citizens living in countries. Otherwise you're not free to live there or are penalized by law. Ours has taxes as a requirement that are handed out for certain perks and programs deemed necessary by our government.
If you don't like how our government manages your tax money then you're free to express your disapproval mainly with your vote. There are many countries that are taxed and their people can't say a word about how much or how it's used. If you'd like to find a more suitable country for your beliefs concerning how your taxes are used and for whom, goodluck.
Wow, you wnet there.
War machine. yeah... you win. colapsing under budget custs to fuel it and not the trillions to banks and other big corps that have their hands in the pockets of the governemnt officials.
Let me tell you something, Government either has their pockets lined by some corp selling weapons or some corp needing banking bailouts or de-regulation. What makess you think the insurance companies are not finding some way to benefit here?
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Universal heathcare is a preventive method in most cases. Meaning that people will actually go to see doctor before they get serious symptons or are dying. It works very well in Scandinavia, I do not think there are many people in my country who would advocate against it. Benefits far outweight the negatives.
Much of the opposition to healthcare reform (or universal healthcare) in the US is down to cultural differences. You have been "hardwired" to detest anything that includes words like "social" etc. It is pretty unique factor in your country and it is understandable, but looking from outside it often does look ridiculous/weird.
You do know that cutting down a fraction of your defense budget would allow universal healthcare in your country and could even extend it to immigrants as well
I think 2003 (might have been 2007) you spend like ~$160 billion to fight terrorism, which that year killed only 63 Americans world-wide. Just check how many Americans die a year due to a lack of healthcare or medicines.
However, I would personally support it in the following way in the US.
- A federal law that requires STATES to provide universal healthcare.
- States can decide themselves how to handle, organise and pay for it.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
YOU wanna go there? How about you give back all of the money stored away from the Germans? OO, what about paying reperations to the coastal European countries that were sacked in the middle ages?
Get off your high horse and come back to reality. Or go join the Taliban and thier fight againsst the Crusaders. Puh-lease, isn't this the year 2009? You are talking about grievances over 200 years old? Like I or we had anything to do with that?
Give into your anger.. haha.
Crusaders where just people who believed in stuff that dont exist, the only difference from today is that if you said you didnt believe them then they killed you for it. The sooner religion goes away and we spend our time just helping eachother the sooner we can evolve. But a brainwashed patriot would not know anything about that so I guess we just have to wait 200 years more before people realize whats going on.
Hehe, give into my anger? Taliban will kill you today if you tell them you do not believe in their version of God. No difference today than then.
As for the brainwashed patriot. My friend, if I were a brainwashed patriot I would be all of the goverment solution. I am all for charities giving helping hands and working with those who need it. I believe we all should give to charities ( and I do, not just for tax purposes ). The government also rewards you for giving to charities by giving you tax breaks for charitable contributions.
So, I say give the the Shriners, give to other charities that money you so want the goverment to take from you. Let the Charities help out where it is needed. Let the local governments ( county, state ) provide the health care.
I do not get the mental breakdown where people say their State Health Care is poop and they believe the Federal Version will be better. You cannot have it both ways, you either believe the government is incompetent or you do not. If they are incompetent at the state level, what makes you believe the Federal level will be any better?????
Seriously, look at what is being said here.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
As far as theory of politics goes, this is very simplistic and also wrong. You can have anarchy on both sides and you can have totalitarian regimes on both sides as well. I quote the following from Wikipedia, which contains a wealth of very neutral information about politics:
"Generally speaking, it can be said that the right wing often values tradition and social stratification while the left wing often values reform and egalitarianism."
It seems that in the States you define the world around what policies and actions your governments want to push. The whole American ideology still revolves around the Cold-War anti-communist passion. "We are free people, they are communists". This is far from the truth and if you want to have a serious opinion about these matters, you need to read and break loose from what McCarthy was preaching in the 50's.
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
As far as theory of politics goes, this is very simplistic and also wrong. You can have anarchy on both sides and you can have totalitarian regimes on both sides as well. I quote the following from Wikipedia, which contains a wealth of very neutral information about politics:
"Generally speaking, it can be said that the right wing often values tradition and social stratification while the left wing often values reform and egalitarianism."
It seems that in the States you define the world around what policies and actions your governments want to push. The whole American ideology still revolves around the Cold-War anti-communist passion. "We are free people, they are communists". This is far from the truth and if you want to have a serious opinion about these matters, you need to read and break loose from what McCarthy was preaching in the 50's.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.