Universal heathcare is a preventive method in most cases. Meaning that people will actually go to see doctor before they get serious symptons or are dying. It works very well in Scandinavia, I do not think there are many people in my country who would advocate against it. Benefits far outweight the negatives. Much of the opposition to healthcare reform (or universal healthcare) in the US is down to cultural differences. You have been "hardwired" to detest anything that includes words like "social" etc. It is pretty unique factor in your country and it is understandable, but looking from outside it often does look ridiculous/weird. You do know that cutting down a fraction of your defense budget would allow universal healthcare in your country and could even extend it to immigrants as well I think 2003 (might have been 2007) you spend like ~$160 billion to fight terrorism, which that year killed only 63 Americans world-wide. Just check how many Americans die a year due to a lack of healthcare or medicines. However, I would personally support it in the following way in the US. - A federal law that requires STATES to provide universal healthcare. - States can decide themselves how to handle, organise and pay for it.
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Universal heathcare is a preventive method in most cases. Meaning that people will actually go to see doctor before they get serious symptons or are dying. It works very well in Scandinavia, I do not think there are many people in my country who would advocate against it. Benefits far outweight the negatives. Much of the opposition to healthcare reform (or universal healthcare) in the US is down to cultural differences. You have been "hardwired" to detest anything that includes words like "social" etc. It is pretty unique factor in your country and it is understandable, but looking from outside it often does look ridiculous/weird. You do know that cutting down a fraction of your defense budget would allow universal healthcare in your country and could even extend it to immigrants as well I think 2003 (might have been 2007) you spend like ~$160 billion to fight terrorism, which that year killed only 63 Americans world-wide. Just check how many Americans die a year due to a lack of healthcare or medicines. However, I would personally support it in the following way in the US. - A federal law that requires STATES to provide universal healthcare. - States can decide themselves how to handle, organise and pay for it.
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
(1) The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Where are you getting your info for (what I marked as) #1? From what I've read and heard there indeed will be competition because no one will be forced into one type of coverage or another. If you like what you have keep it. If what you have doesn't stack up to what the reform puts in place then your current insurer either comes up with a better plan or loses customers. That = competition.
#2. They are going(have gone) to different clinics like the Mayo clinic and the one in Cleveland (the name escapes me) to look over how they do business as well as looking at plans from different countries, so they indeed are looking at best practices from places that are doing their jobs and doing them very well.
Nothing is perfect, and nothing will ever be perfect. Our current system is far far from perfect and has been in place so long that it's outdated as well as a joke. Changes NEED to be made. There also needs to be a stop to all the misinformation people are being swamped with and the petty political rhetoric.
Originally posted by NovaKayne True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings. When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose. Still it is disportionate response to the issue. Support is gained through fear that is inherent in most people. If they spend as much primetime media time on healthcare problems you would be scared of them as well. I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it. Well, terrorism is a sympton, but yeah let's stay away from this subject as it would require a lot more time. This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse. That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived. Well I am a fan of Benjamic Fraklin, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. I have read a lot of them along with other thinkers from the Age of Englightment, but those ideals are all but forgotten now. Or warped to represent something completely different.
Most people in Europe share your distrust in government. You have no uniquess in this respect. However, Europeans tend to be far less selective about it and perhaps it is also true that we are far less patriotic as a whole. What I ment when I said that it can sometimes feel weird when looking at your country. Cultural differences. Having been born in Europe, I would be much more inclined to be against bloated defense budget than universal healthcare. But that does not mean that I am not anti-establisment or do not prefer smaller government. Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan. The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others. The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION. Actually, your lack of competition does not really fly. All scandivian countries for example have top notch medical infrastructure and know-how. Also in my country, we even have a private industry as well. You can get private health insurance and see private doctors - specialists. So one is not done with the exclusion of another.
Also about corruption, my country has been one of the lowest in the international corruption meters for dunno how long.
You fall in a slippery slope argument. It is a logical fallacy. You say that a thing, how small or irrelevant or indirect, will lead to something else, but there is very little evidence of that. Perhaps it is true that there is a lot of corruption in the US government caused by heathcare insurers and politicians who accept them, but that is hardly a good argument against universal healthcare. It might be a good argument against ethics of your state and federal bureocracy.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad). I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future. Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
The freedom to pursue life and the government to guarantee that the system does not brake down is represented by Obama and the Democrats - at least that is what is closest to it currently. Don't mistake the right to own gun with civil liberties. It is just a cheap trick to make you think the Republicans are "liberal". People don't need guns in a correctly working society anyway.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future.
Convince the Chinese, Russians, India and other emerging countries to conform to this first. The changes that America are being requested to make would have less of an impact than any 1 of those contries. Why hold US to a limiting system when the rest of the worlds emergeing markets are left to polute at will?
Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
Mindlessly bombing? Do you really believe we just pick a country and say "Your turn"? So, the endless number of attacks on the US from 1993 to 2000 that were not pursed nor punished ended in peace? Oh, no it ended in a plane vs building match. Yeah, no "mindless bombing".
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
See, that is a difference in opinion based upon rhetoric from both sides. Far left could be taken as those who want to concede to every bully. Destroy religion and not allow it. Send thugs into the streets to enforce political correctness. I think you have right wing confused with fascist. A fascist believes in might makes right, regardless of ideology. So you can be a left wing fascist that beats down everyone who does not aggree.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Originally posted by NovaKayne True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings. When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose. Still it is disportionate response to the issue. Support is gained through fear that is inherent in most people. If they spend as much primetime media time on healthcare problems you would be scared of them as well. I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it. Well, terrorism is a sympton, but yeah let's stay away from this subject as it would require a lot more time. This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse. That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived. Well I am a fan of Benjamic Fraklin, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. I have read a lot of them along with other thinkers from the Age of Englightment, but those ideals are all but forgotten now. Or warped to represent something completely different.
Most people in Europe share your distrust in government. You have no uniquess in this respect. However, Europeans tend to be far less selective about it and perhaps it is also true that we are far less patriotic as a whole. What I ment when I said that it can sometimes feel weird when looking at your country. Cultural differences. Having been born in Europe, I would be much more inclined to be against bloated defense budget than universal healthcare. But that does not mean that I am not anti-establisment or do not prefer smaller government. Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan. The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others. The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION. Actually, your lack of competition does not really fly. All scandivian countries for example have top notch medical infrastructure and know-how. Also in my country, we even have a private industry as well. You can get private health insurance and see private doctors - specialists. So one is not done with the exclusion of another.
Also about corruption, my country has been one of the lowest in the international corruption meters for dunno how long.
You fall in a slippery slope argument. It is a logical fallacy. You say that a thing, how small or irrelevant or indirect, will lead to something else, but there is very little evidence of that. Perhaps it is true that there is a lot of corruption in the US government caused by heathcare insurers and politicians who accept them, but that is hardly a good argument against universal healthcare. It might be a good argument against ethics of your state and federal bureocracy.
Please do not take this as being rude. Your country is the size of one of our states. Does your system work exactly like the other systems in the EU?
What if the EU came in and told you that your system needs to conform to the one used in GB? Essentially this is what the Obama care comes down to. The states are the ones who control the medical services. THe federal government does not have the right to make the descision or force a state to conform to a law that the state is responsible for. That was put in place for a purpose, to keep the power of government from being centrally located. To keep the corruption that is rampant in the system now from happening. We, the people need to call this out and point out to the populace that the Federal Government needs to be held accountable. That the local govermnents need to be held accountable.
Liek the guy who was from Portland. He needs to get with groups in his state that are politically inclined and have them force some sort of reform in their system. Not wait for the Federal Government to come in and take care of them. Take responsibility, do something.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Originally posted by NovaKayne Please do not take this as being rude. Your country is the size of one of our states. Does your system work exactly like the other systems in the EU? Of course it does not work exactly alike. Not even in Scandinavia, but it does work in every European country. Size really does not matter. What if the EU came in and told you that your system needs to conform to the one used in GB? Essentially this is what the Obama care comes down to. The states are the ones who control the medical services. THe federal government does not have the right to make the descision or force a state to conform to a law that the state is responsible for. That was put in place for a purpose, to keep the power of government from being centrally located. To keep the corruption that is rampant in the system now from happening. We, the people need to call this out and point out to the populace that the Federal Government needs to be held accountable. That the local govermnents need to be held accountable It would not come out like that. The same with the US. You have Congress. Who should Congress represent? But yes, when joining the Union, my country did agree to certain principles and indeed some things have changed which the government itself would not want to change.
Also, this is what I ment by being selective. You already allow your Federal government many powers that go directly against the Constitution. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but there are many other laws that consume billions of dollars a year, do not help your citizens a bit and are not supported by the Constitution.
Plus the Constitution actually includes in it's preamble "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Liek the guy who was from Portland. He needs to get with groups in his state that are politically inclined and have them force some sort of reform in their system. Not wait for the Federal Government to come in and take care of them. Take responsibility, do something. Idealism is always nice, but it seldom affects the establishment.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
"Idealism is always nice, but it seldom affects the establishment."
Wrong answer. I do not think there is anyone in this debate regardless of side that will not agree to that being an incorrect statement.
It may not be over night but, it does affect the establishment. Otherwise so many things in this country that were idolistically BAD would still be in place today.
Thanks to everyone in this thread. It was fun and I enjoyed the lively debate. Unfortunately I have spent too much time in here. See ya!
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I am not sure I understand, but didn't you have a Bush administration since 2000? Again, I might not understand your point here.
I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future.
Convince the Chinese, Russians, India and other emerging countries to conform to this first. The changes that America are being requested to make would have less of an impact than any 1 of those contries. Why hold US to a limiting system when the rest of the worlds emergeing markets are left to polute at will?
You are putting some third-world countries in front of the States and say "it's their fault"? Is this how much you value your country? US should LEAD the world in environmentalism. Are the Europeans stupid to adhere to the regulations? You -along with Europe- have the diplomatic power to convince all the countries you mention, but choose to leave the pitch and nuke the whole idea. Way to go, America!
Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
Mindlessly bombing? Do you really believe we just pick a country and say "Your turn"? So, the endless number of attacks on the US from 1993 to 2000 that were not pursed nor punished ended in peace? Oh, no it ended in a plane vs building match. Yeah, no "mindless bombing".
Actually, no. You pick a country WITH OIL and say "Your turn". As for the plane vs building match: give the world a break. Everyone knows what happened there. And for me and many others, controlled demolition is a much more suitable term than terrorist attack. By the way, where are the planes that hit the Pentagon and crashed in Pensilvania? Don't get me wrong, I hate terrorism as much as you do and I know that you have suffered alot. But I don't buy the 11 September tale.
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
See, that is a difference in opinion based upon rhetoric from both sides. Far left could be taken as those who want to concede to every bully. Destroy religion and not allow it. Send thugs into the streets to enforce political correctness. I think you have right wing confused with fascist. A fascist believes in might makes right, regardless of ideology. So you can be a left wing fascist that beats down everyone who does not aggree.
I am talking about FAR right, and Mazin's wrong belief about far right being an anarchy. I totally agree that fascism exists in both sides. Actually the differences between far left and far right are just ...cosmetic.
"Idealism is always nice, but it seldom affects the establishment."
Wrong answer. I do not think there is anyone in this debate regardless of side that will not agree to that being an incorrect statement. It may not be over night but, it does affect the establishment. Otherwise so many things in this country that were idolistically BAD would still be in place today. Thanks to everyone in this thread. It was fun and I enjoyed the lively debate. Unfortunately I have spent too much time in here. See ya!
Idealism often needs a powerful political force (and academics and financial) behind it. And the major factor needed for that force is support from the establishment.
With the healthcare issue you are actually in a place where a significant part of the establishment is supporting it. Your answer to this support is to ignore it and go back to grass root politics on a state level because you do not agree with the potential outcome on a federal level.
In my opinion, self-defeating.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
This is categorically false. The idea that Clinton was lax on our defense budget is a lie that neo-conservatives perpetuate to further the juggernaut that is defense budgeting.
Just read a couple of lines in. While he initially decried increased budgeting for national defense, that's not how things ended. And let's ask the neo-cons to stop acting like little kids who believe that throwing money at a problem fixes it. Would 230 F-22 Raptors have changed the outcome of the atrocities on 9/11? 530? No, there was a serious break in the actions taken place by those who were in charge. More money for the defense budget wouldn't have done a thing and to pretend that it would is merely misdirection in the hopes of increasing the profit margins for defense contractors (and thus the neo-con politicians who bed said contractors).
And being the big kid on the block has nothing to do with why we were attacked. It was years and years of FOSTERING Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East (look at the overthrow of Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt by the Isreali/American forces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser - pay careful attention to Nasser's influence on Arab nationalism, unification and then the resulting Six-Day War). Global politics are tempermental, delicate, and shift dramatically and immediately. America has, time and time again and under the direction of mindless, arrogant twits who play at being men, tampered with and toyed with the geo-political states of many different countries. The attacks on 9/11 were the result of such puerile actions, the hatred and desperation of men driven mad with mayhem turned on the innocent citizens of a country politically run amok.
If the Nicaraguan, Panamanian or Chilean populations were drawn together by a surge in their indigenous religions, and then goaded by their priests/sages/shamans/etc. into a frenzy over the atrocities of Operation Condor or the overthrow of the PDF (conveniently before we were to relinquish control of the Panama Canal), we'd be roiling under the same terrorist attacks from another continent.
If Obama was SOE then his new health care plan would be the NGE. He is gonna try his best to shove it down our throats like SOE did the NGE and then try and convice us its for the best. He'll do this despite the polls saying that a majority of Americans are happy with their current health care, like SOE did even though the current fan base largely hated the NGE. Also like the nge, if his health care plan gets passed, it will be very difficult to roll the system back to a previous more successful state. Then you'll have EMU's pop up. This will be states like Texas that may end up seceding from the Union. That is how Obama is like SOE
I like it. Only because I think trying to force a health care system that doesn't even work very well for small countries on a much larger country like ourselves is borderline retarded. It is kind of interesting comparing politics like this to MMO's. I wonder how many of you would like to have a game company making all of your decisions for you and controlling where your hard earned virtual money goes to. I would compare it to them taking 60% of all wealth from the top hardcore players and redistributing it to all of the people who just started playing the game. Doesn't make much sense in a video game either does it?
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground Church Controlled State
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Had to change that a bit....lol.
I consider myself in the middle, but I do have problems with bible-thumping republicans dictating their morals on me....I digress. I am registered as a democrat, my husband is a republican. I try to see both sides. I do think that there needs to be reform in our healthcare. I don't think it needs to be as radical as the proposed plan is. The problem I have with it...why should I have to pay more taxes to pay for "Joe's" broken bone, when Joe is perfectly capable of getting a job and paying for it himself. I don't have a problem with providing universal healthcare to children and the elderly. I'd gladly pay my taxes toward that, but not the average "Joe". Of course, this is just my opinion.
Of all the ignorant comparisons, this is my favorite. It shows that whoever decided to flagrantly open their mouth on the subject failed to consider how the two situations (public health care and the DMV) are alike and how they are similar.
The DMV is a state run department that handles non life threatening scenarios; registering your car, renewing your license, paying fines for not having proper registration, etc. Public health care is a system where the government, state or local, will provide an option open to any member of the public (one not limited to your employer, which is an absolutely worthless system) is provided a portal for health care. Why should my employer be forced to foot half the cost of my health care? It only serves to limit the expandability of small businesses by preventing them from competing with larger companies who can afford to offer health care to their employees.
And if so many of us are worried that too many Americans will accept the public option, has been expressed on this topic so far, then why are any of you simultaneously heralding the beauty of neoliberal fiscal policies, which all stem from the idea that the market will bring joy to us all because we will use our collective voice, and the only one that matters to anyone in power (where we spend our money), and show private health care what kind of a system we prefer. One that regulates stipulations.
Oh, and for the person I'm replying to, lets not forget the numerous health care provider scandals that our country has seen. Go read The Rainmaker. Being that John Grisham is a lawyer, I feel confident in stating that his novel was inspired by litigation he was privy to both in his studies and as a professional. Private health care is no fine oiled machine, unless we're talking about greasing the wheels with money.
Edit: One page back there is a post comparing public health care to the DMV, for those of you who missed it.
Of all the ignorant comparisons, this is my favorite. It shows that whoever decided to flagrantly open their mouth on the subject failed to consider how the two situations (public health care and the DMV) are alike and how they are similar. The DMV is a state run department that handles non life threatening scenarios; registering your car, renewing your license, paying fines for not having proper registration, etc. Public health care is a system where the government, state or local, will provide an option open to any member of the public (one not limited to your employer, which is an absolutely worthless system) is provided a portal for health care. Why should my employer be forced to foot half the cost of my health care? It only serves to limit the expandability of small businesses by preventing them from competing with larger companies who can afford to offer health care to their employees. And if so many of us are worried that too many Americans will accept the public option, has been expressed on this topic so far, then why are any of you simultaneously heralding the beauty of neoliberal fiscal policies, which all stem from the idea that the market will bring joy to us all because we will use our collective voice, and the only one that matters to anyone in power (where we spend our money), and show private health care what kind of a system we prefer. One that regulates stipulations. Oh, and for the person I'm replying to, lets not forget the numerous health care provider scandals that our country has seen. Go read The Rainmaker. Being that John Grisham is a lawyer, I feel confident in stating that his novel was inspired by litigation he was privy to both in his studies and as a professional. Private health care is no fine oiled machine, unless we're talking about greasing the wheels with money.
Edit: One page back there is a post comparing public health care to the DMV, for those of you who missed it.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
Of all the ignorant comparisons, this is my favorite. It shows that whoever decided to flagrantly open their mouth on the subject failed to consider how the two situations (public health care and the DMV) are alike and how they are similar. The DMV is a state run department that handles non life threatening scenarios; registering your car, renewing your license, paying fines for not having proper registration, etc. Public health care is a system where the government, state or local, will provide an option open to any member of the public (one not limited to your employer, which is an absolutely worthless system) is provided a portal for health care. Why should my employer be forced to foot half the cost of my health care? It only serves to limit the expandability of small businesses by preventing them from competing with larger companies who can afford to offer health care to their employees. And if so many of us are worried that too many Americans will accept the public option, has been expressed on this topic so far, then why are any of you simultaneously heralding the beauty of neoliberal fiscal policies, which all stem from the idea that the market will bring joy to us all because we will use our collective voice, and the only one that matters to anyone in power (where we spend our money), and show private health care what kind of a system we prefer. One that regulates stipulations. Oh, and for the person I'm replying to, lets not forget the numerous health care provider scandals that our country has seen. Go read The Rainmaker. Being that John Grisham is a lawyer, I feel confident in stating that his novel was inspired by litigation he was privy to both in his studies and as a professional. Private health care is no fine oiled machine, unless we're talking about greasing the wheels with money.
Edit: One page back there is a post comparing public health care to the DMV, for those of you who missed it.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
And now you will have to accept the fact that you live in a democracy, and the democracy has spoken. We chose Obama because we felt he was the best man at representing the wants of the PEOPLE, not some apathetic, asocial dolt who could "care less what happens" to the entire country. What do I care for the epithets or promises of capitalism when millions of Americans are in danger. When little kids in Brooklyn are dying from health issues that stem from rampant construction that is headed by one of your kin (Bruce Ratner), over developing in a downtown area that is congested as is. I care more for those who support this economy, the tens of millions of under-paid, ill-represented Americans whose lives make this "capitalist" economy work.
So if we're all to shut our mouths and "stay out of your pocket" (as if you receive no benefit from the society you live in and thus are not obligated to repay your debt to all of us, just as we pay to all of you) then I suggest you stay out of our country.
Edit: Missed a space between care and less. It said, ". . . some dolt who could careless . . ." Funny, but needed revising.
Of all the ignorant comparisons, this is my favorite. It shows that whoever decided to flagrantly open their mouth on the subject failed to consider how the two situations (public health care and the DMV) are alike and how they are similar. The DMV is a state run department that handles non life threatening scenarios; registering your car, renewing your license, paying fines for not having proper registration, etc. Public health care is a system where the government, state or local, will provide an option open to any member of the public (one not limited to your employer, which is an absolutely worthless system) is provided a portal for health care. Why should my employer be forced to foot half the cost of my health care? It only serves to limit the expandability of small businesses by preventing them from competing with larger companies who can afford to offer health care to their employees. And if so many of us are worried that too many Americans will accept the public option, has been expressed on this topic so far, then why are any of you simultaneously heralding the beauty of neoliberal fiscal policies, which all stem from the idea that the market will bring joy to us all because we will use our collective voice, and the only one that matters to anyone in power (where we spend our money), and show private health care what kind of a system we prefer. One that regulates stipulations. Oh, and for the person I'm replying to, lets not forget the numerous health care provider scandals that our country has seen. Go read The Rainmaker. Being that John Grisham is a lawyer, I feel confident in stating that his novel was inspired by litigation he was privy to both in his studies and as a professional. Private health care is no fine oiled machine, unless we're talking about greasing the wheels with money.
Edit: One page back there is a post comparing public health care to the DMV, for those of you who missed it.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
And now you will have to accept the fact that you live in a democracy, and the democracy has spoken. We chose Obama because we felt he was the best man at representing the wants of the PEOPLE, not some apathetic, asocial dolt who could "care less what happens" to the entire country. What do I care for the epithets or promises of capitalism when millions of Americans are in danger. When little kids in Brooklyn are dying from health issues that stem from rampant construction that is headed by one of your kin (Bruce Ratner), over developing in a downtown area that is congested as is. I care more for those who support this economy, the tens of millions of under-paid, ill-represented Americans whose lives make this "capitalist" economy work.
So if we're all to shut our mouths and "stay out of your pocket" (as if you receive no benefit from the society you live in and thus are not obligated to repay your debt to all of us, just as we pay to all of you) then I suggest you stay out of our country.
Edit: Missed a space between care and less. It said, ". . . some dolt who could careless . . ." Funny, but needed revising.
Lol I like how my ideas don't burden you but your ideas put a burden on me (my wallet). Also I think their was a country that tried to treat everyone the same and spilt the wealth equally among the ppl, hmm what was that country called?......Your ideas will lead america to the bread lines.
You're clearly missing the point. Your ideas do affect us. All of us. If we live as isolated individuals, hell bent on making more money and doing what's best juts for us, we wind up with situations like that of the poor people in Maine who had to rely on Hugo Chavez, of all people, to come provide affordable oil for heating; situations like the one I spoke of in Brooklyn, where the Atlantic Yards construction is costing the city millions and gives nothing but false promise (do we really think that a part-time job selling sodas at the New York Nets basketball arena can be called sustainable employment?) and health care concerns, or the wretched economic damage that my home, Michigan, saw once the Big Three showed their contempt for Americans and moved huge numbers of jobs out of the region.
When you care only for yourself you do have a rather large impact on all of us. And when you limit your concept of impact to a simple financial metric, as if quality of life and thus human existence is best summed up by commas and a dollar sign, you're no closer to understanding the impact you have on us than before the conversation started. And that's the problem with your economic/political theory; it limits itself to a set of ideals that completely ignore the true value of life and happiness.
You're clearly missing the point. Your ideas do affect us. All of us. If we live as isolated individuals, hell bent on making more money and doing what's best juts for us, we wind up with situations like that of the poor people in Maine who had to rely on Hugo Chavez, of all people, to come provide affordable oil for heating; situations like the one I spoke of in Brooklyn, where the Atlantic Yards construction is costing the city millions and gives nothing but false promise (do we really think that a part-time job selling sodas at the New York Nets basketball arena can be called sustainable employment?) and health care concerns, or the wretched economic damage that my home, Michigan, saw once the Big Three showed their contempt for Americans and moved huge numbers of jobs out of the region. When you care only for yourself you do have a rather large impact on all of us. And when you limit your concept of impact to a simple financial metric, as if quality of life and thus human existence is best summed up by commas and a dollar sign, you're no closer to understanding the impact you have on us than before the conversation started. And that's the problem with your economic/political theory; it limits itself to a set of ideals that completely ignore the true value of life and happiness.
All I'm saying is that if you want to save the world and be a hero do it on your own dime. I think the best thing you can teach someone is self-reliance. Instead we have ppl with 5 kids and no job waiting for their welfare checks so they can buy drugs all because ppl like you "feel bad" for them. If I had my way then if your not working then you starve, if it was that way a guarantee everybody would be working but nope they just keep getting your charity and contine to waste my money and free healthcare only promotes them to be even more lazy.
Also your wrong my ideas don't affect you at all. (srry was gonna edit and finish this but got d/c)
My ideas only have a negative impact on lazy people and people that aren't motivated to make something of themselves. Survival of the fittest still pertains to humans.
What polls cite Americans liking health care the way it is?? It is a mess and everyone except the gullible knows it. Your life depends on a for-profit health clerk deciding whether you get benefits. Kinda like PC customer support.
As for Texas seceding I'm all for it! The state that is proud to be dumb...
So if I just say, "Well mine don't affect you either, because they're just ideas," does that make me right?
How many low income families to live next to or deal with on an average day. How many times have you been to the Henry Street Settlement Center and seen a stream of parents come in for free classes to get skills that you probbaly received, gratis I might add, at your public school when you were growing up? How many mothers have you seen cry uncontrollably because, despite how hard they're trying (and you see them there every day, and you work with them every day, and you can verify that they are in fact trying every day) they can't land a job that lasts for more than a month because the economy is dwindling so fast. If people with Master's and Ph.D's can't get a job now, because the economy is struggling, what do you think the life is like for someone who grew up in an impoverished neighborhood must be like. For someone who didn't have the same opportunities and benefits that most of us were blessed with?
Before you start opening your mouth about drug addicts and poor people and laziness, consider the words of a man far more intelligent and caring than I assume you are. "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville understood very well how difficult it is to adjust to a society that condemns you for the trappings of the environment that you were raised into. And it is nothing short of self-righteous and pompous to imagine that you know how difficult that existence is, and you know with any measure of actuality what temptations they are afflicted by or what damage they have suffered. If you don't care, that's fine. But don't cry when the rest of the country does, and when we demand of every member of our country to pitch in to help.
Never forget the benefits you've received from your free education. And if you were unfortunate enough to grow up in a poor neighborhood that offered the kind of deplorable environment and "studies" that I've been privy to, congratulations on getting out. But remember that it only happend through the charity and good grace of selfless individuals, and not the selfish.
I just saw your edit. I cannot believe that someone would be so callous as to cite Darwin's theory of evolution. By that standard, any child who suffered negligent parenting would be forfeit and left to die. Is that what you believe? The majority of the world's population would agree that a mindless, blind watchmaker (to quote Dawkins) is the least effective model to follow when it comes to sentient, CARING beings and those in need.
And to expand, how can you say, without mocking yourself, that you're all about teaching self reliance? These lazy fools that you purport to limit your impact to (and it doesn't end there, it spreads like cancer) were taught exactly what you were? What about those of them whose parents were worse than they are, who taught nothing but avarice and vice, who left their children to fend for themselves? I am stricken by as much outrage as any when I hear of a family left wanting for care because one or both parents fled in search of drugs or crime or whatever else. We should force ourselves to remeber that our outrage stems from the kind of damage that such a scenario can impart on the children. If that is the case, what kind of damage might the perpetrator have suffered?
My advice to you, Cyborg99, is that if you don't care about the rest of us, stay out of conversations that involve the rest of us.
So if I just say, "Well mine don't affect you either, because they're just ideas," does that make me right? How many low income families to live next to or deal with on an average day. How many times have you been to the Henry Street Settlement Center and seen a stream of parents come in for free classes to get skills that you probbaly received, gratis I might add, at your public school when you were growing up? How many mothers have you seen cry uncontrollably because, despite how hard they're trying (and you see them there every day, and you work with them every day, and you can verify that they are in fact trying every day) they can't land a job that lasts for more than a month because the economy is dwindling so fast. If people with Master's and Ph.D's can't get a job now, because the economy is struggling, what do you think the life is like for someone who grew up in an impoverished neighborhood must be like. For someone who didn't have the same opportunities and benefits that most of us were blessed with? Before you start opening your mouth about drug addicts and poor people and laziness, consider the words of a man far more intelligent and caring than I assume you are. "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville understood very well how difficult it is to adjust to a society that condemns you for the trappings of the environment that you were raised into. And it is nothing short of self-righteous and pompous to imagine that you know how difficult that existence is, and you know with any measure of actuality what temptations they are afflicted by or what damage they have suffered. If you don't care, that's fine. But don't cry when the rest of the country does, and when we demand of every member of our country to pitch in to help. Never forget the benefits you've received from your free education. And if you were unfortunate enough to grow up in a poor neighborhood that offered the kind of deplorable environment and "studies" that I've been privy to, congratulations on getting out. But remember that it only happend through the charity and good grace of selfless individuals, and not the selfish.
Bonzar, I don't blame you for playing the victim card because you've probably been brainwashed by the liberal media. Why tough it out and work hard when you can just give up and say your a victim. Now your saying that it tough out in the real world and people are trying, ok I'll accept some people are trying but I've seen people go from slums to becoming very succesful and I respect them. What I don't respect is people that can't find jobs, thats bs, I see help wanted signs all over the place. If you can't find a job your not trying hard enough and if your starving thats because of your own laziness. And as for you quote I've worked for my wealth and nothing was given to me so Herman's quote is fail.
Comments
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
True, they did cut back on the defence budget in the 90's and someone started... oh, flying planes into buidlings.
When you are the big kid on the block there is always someone trying to take you down for whatever reason or purpose.
I am not going to say they did not have a reason for it... Not going to get into that since the government was prolly the one who stepped on a toe some time in the last 1000 years for the hardline extreme types that did it.
This country was founded on people wanting to get out from under opression of governemnt, religion, or some idealism. You bet it is ingraned in the very fabric of our being. I take great pride in being able to have this conversation with people ( tho this might not be the place to do it ) and yet probably play side by side in games with those very self same people.
Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I hate you or feel hatred toward you. The perspectives of those outside of the US are interesting to say the least. Social does strike fear in our hearts. Becaue of that Social aspect there were people who left your country and came to mine. We have a basic distrust of government and its potential for corruption and abuse.
That goes for Democrat or Republican. Both parties in the US have not done much to impress me over the last 20 years. Which is probably longer than most people in this debate have even lived.
Follow the money trail and you will find the issue. Doctors are not making money hand over fist. Most I know are having a hard time paying back the student loans because of all of the INSURANCE THEY have to carry as well. Insurance needs to be regulated, mal-practivce lawyers need to be regulated. And this should be controlled at the state level. This allows various systems to be implemented for competition and to see who has a better plan.
The states are already supposed to be providing it, some just do it better than others.
(1) The federal 1 size fits all does not allow for competition. Lack of competition leads to mediocrity. Why is California bankrupt and Texas not? What is the difference? What is California doing that Texas does not do? See, where this goes? You have differeing ideas, differing systems and you can compare and contrast. Rather than institue a Federal Health Care system that may/may not meet the demands of the local populace. Why not look at the states that seem to have a successfull solution and try working those policies into your constituantts? Why are California Representatives not coming to Texas and saying how do you do it? Why are they going to Jamaica for a political retreat or Erupope to look at their system? CORRUPTION.
Where are you getting your info for (what I marked as) #1? From what I've read and heard there indeed will be competition because no one will be forced into one type of coverage or another. If you like what you have keep it. If what you have doesn't stack up to what the reform puts in place then your current insurer either comes up with a better plan or loses customers. That = competition.
#2. They are going(have gone) to different clinics like the Mayo clinic and the one in Cleveland (the name escapes me) to look over how they do business as well as looking at plans from different countries, so they indeed are looking at best practices from places that are doing their jobs and doing them very well.
Nothing is perfect, and nothing will ever be perfect. Our current system is far far from perfect and has been in place so long that it's outdated as well as a joke. Changes NEED to be made. There also needs to be a stop to all the misinformation people are being swamped with and the petty political rhetoric.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad). I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future. Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
The freedom to pursue life and the government to guarantee that the system does not brake down is represented by Obama and the Democrats - at least that is what is closest to it currently. Don't mistake the right to own gun with civil liberties. It is just a cheap trick to make you think the Republicans are "liberal". People don't need guns in a correctly working society anyway.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future.
Convince the Chinese, Russians, India and other emerging countries to conform to this first. The changes that America are being requested to make would have less of an impact than any 1 of those contries. Why hold US to a limiting system when the rest of the worlds emergeing markets are left to polute at will?
Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
Mindlessly bombing? Do you really believe we just pick a country and say "Your turn"? So, the endless number of attacks on the US from 1993 to 2000 that were not pursed nor punished ended in peace? Oh, no it ended in a plane vs building match. Yeah, no "mindless bombing".
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
See, that is a difference in opinion based upon rhetoric from both sides. Far left could be taken as those who want to concede to every bully. Destroy religion and not allow it. Send thugs into the streets to enforce political correctness. I think you have right wing confused with fascist. A fascist believes in might makes right, regardless of ideology. So you can be a left wing fascist that beats down everyone who does not aggree.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Please do not take this as being rude. Your country is the size of one of our states. Does your system work exactly like the other systems in the EU?
What if the EU came in and told you that your system needs to conform to the one used in GB? Essentially this is what the Obama care comes down to. The states are the ones who control the medical services. THe federal government does not have the right to make the descision or force a state to conform to a law that the state is responsible for. That was put in place for a purpose, to keep the power of government from being centrally located. To keep the corruption that is rampant in the system now from happening. We, the people need to call this out and point out to the populace that the Federal Government needs to be held accountable. That the local govermnents need to be held accountable.
Liek the guy who was from Portland. He needs to get with groups in his state that are politically inclined and have them force some sort of reform in their system. Not wait for the Federal Government to come in and take care of them. Take responsibility, do something.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
"Idealism is always nice, but it seldom affects the establishment."
Wrong answer. I do not think there is anyone in this debate regardless of side that will not agree to that being an incorrect statement.
It may not be over night but, it does affect the establishment. Otherwise so many things in this country that were idolistically BAD would still be in place today.
Thanks to everyone in this thread. It was fun and I enjoyed the lively debate. Unfortunately I have spent too much time in here. See ya!
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
Im telling you what left and right means in America, they mean different things in different parts of the world.
Being a whack far right extremist means you believe in no gov't whatsoever, being a whack far left extremist means you believe in gov't being the answer for everything.
America in general (the everyday person that you dont see on tv) is center right meaning we want our freedoms to pursue life as we see fit but realize the need for gov't to keep things civil.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I am not sure I understand, but didn't you have a Bush administration since 2000? Again, I might not understand your point here.
I think that you cannot separate the States, as having its own political system and ideologies. We live in a globalized environment. Supporting a government (Bush - Republicans) with no environmental consciousness might seem profitable locally, but it will backfire on America in the near future.
Convince the Chinese, Russians, India and other emerging countries to conform to this first. The changes that America are being requested to make would have less of an impact than any 1 of those contries. Why hold US to a limiting system when the rest of the worlds emergeing markets are left to polute at will?
You are putting some third-world countries in front of the States and say "it's their fault"? Is this how much you value your country? US should LEAD the world in environmentalism. Are the Europeans stupid to adhere to the regulations? You -along with Europe- have the diplomatic power to convince all the countries you mention, but choose to leave the pitch and nuke the whole idea. Way to go, America!
Mindlessly bombing far away countries might seem to help expand the economy of the States, but wait until millions of homeless refugees from these destroyed places come to your cities, or your allies cities.
Mindlessly bombing? Do you really believe we just pick a country and say "Your turn"? So, the endless number of attacks on the US from 1993 to 2000 that were not pursed nor punished ended in peace? Oh, no it ended in a plane vs building match. Yeah, no "mindless bombing".
Actually, no. You pick a country WITH OIL and say "Your turn". As for the plane vs building match: give the world a break. Everyone knows what happened there. And for me and many others, controlled demolition is a much more suitable term than terrorist attack. By the way, where are the planes that hit the Pentagon and crashed in Pensilvania? Don't get me wrong, I hate terrorism as much as you do and I know that you have suffered alot. But I don't buy the 11 September tale.
The Nazi government in Germany, was right winged and was one of the strongest, strictest and most totalitatian governments that ever existed. I cannot believe that far rights in the US are anarchists. Put away the book you read that, don't talk again to the person that said that to you. Far right is someone who has the American Flag above everything. Far right is someone who believes in the superiority of the White Race. Far right is someone that would send his police to crush the protesters on the street. Far right is going to burn the books, censor the media, wage war on its neighbours, dissallow freedom of religion. Rule with an iron fist in general. Your belief about the left and right wings is wrong, even in the American context.
See, that is a difference in opinion based upon rhetoric from both sides. Far left could be taken as those who want to concede to every bully. Destroy religion and not allow it. Send thugs into the streets to enforce political correctness. I think you have right wing confused with fascist. A fascist believes in might makes right, regardless of ideology. So you can be a left wing fascist that beats down everyone who does not aggree.
I am talking about FAR right, and Mazin's wrong belief about far right being an anarchy. I totally agree that fascism exists in both sides. Actually the differences between far left and far right are just ...cosmetic.
Idealism often needs a powerful political force (and academics and financial) behind it. And the major factor needed for that force is support from the establishment.
With the healthcare issue you are actually in a place where a significant part of the establishment is supporting it. Your answer to this support is to ignore it and go back to grass root politics on a state level because you do not agree with the potential outcome on a federal level.
In my opinion, self-defeating.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I didn't know SOE was communist.
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This is categorically false. The idea that Clinton was lax on our defense budget is a lie that neo-conservatives perpetuate to further the juggernaut that is defense budgeting.
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/news99/990121-bmd.htm
Just read a couple of lines in. While he initially decried increased budgeting for national defense, that's not how things ended. And let's ask the neo-cons to stop acting like little kids who believe that throwing money at a problem fixes it. Would 230 F-22 Raptors have changed the outcome of the atrocities on 9/11? 530? No, there was a serious break in the actions taken place by those who were in charge. More money for the defense budget wouldn't have done a thing and to pretend that it would is merely misdirection in the hopes of increasing the profit margins for defense contractors (and thus the neo-con politicians who bed said contractors).
And being the big kid on the block has nothing to do with why we were attacked. It was years and years of FOSTERING Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East (look at the overthrow of Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt by the Isreali/American forces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser - pay careful attention to Nasser's influence on Arab nationalism, unification and then the resulting Six-Day War). Global politics are tempermental, delicate, and shift dramatically and immediately. America has, time and time again and under the direction of mindless, arrogant twits who play at being men, tampered with and toyed with the geo-political states of many different countries. The attacks on 9/11 were the result of such puerile actions, the hatred and desperation of men driven mad with mayhem turned on the innocent citizens of a country politically run amok.
If the Nicaraguan, Panamanian or Chilean populations were drawn together by a surge in their indigenous religions, and then goaded by their priests/sages/shamans/etc. into a frenzy over the atrocities of Operation Condor or the overthrow of the PDF (conveniently before we were to relinquish control of the Panama Canal), we'd be roiling under the same terrorist attacks from another continent.
I like it. Only because I think trying to force a health care system that doesn't even work very well for small countries on a much larger country like ourselves is borderline retarded. It is kind of interesting comparing politics like this to MMO's. I wonder how many of you would like to have a game company making all of your decisions for you and controlling where your hard earned virtual money goes to. I would compare it to them taking 60% of all wealth from the top hardcore players and redistributing it to all of the people who just started playing the game. Doesn't make much sense in a video game either does it?
Democrats/liberals are such a waste of space. With free healthcare, everytime you need to go see your doctor, it will be like going to the dmv.
Trolls = Hardcore
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The only posts I read in threads are my own.
<Left============================Center========================Right>
Total gov't control over everything Middle Ground Church Controlled State
After America won its independance in the 1780s we were more an anarachy under the Articles of Confederation, and later in 1789 the Constitution was written that made us more of a center right country. Based on our past Obama's policies are far left.
Had to change that a bit....lol.
I consider myself in the middle, but I do have problems with bible-thumping republicans dictating their morals on me....I digress. I am registered as a democrat, my husband is a republican. I try to see both sides. I do think that there needs to be reform in our healthcare. I don't think it needs to be as radical as the proposed plan is. The problem I have with it...why should I have to pay more taxes to pay for "Joe's" broken bone, when Joe is perfectly capable of getting a job and paying for it himself. I don't have a problem with providing universal healthcare to children and the elderly. I'd gladly pay my taxes toward that, but not the average "Joe". Of course, this is just my opinion.
Of all the ignorant comparisons, this is my favorite. It shows that whoever decided to flagrantly open their mouth on the subject failed to consider how the two situations (public health care and the DMV) are alike and how they are similar.
The DMV is a state run department that handles non life threatening scenarios; registering your car, renewing your license, paying fines for not having proper registration, etc. Public health care is a system where the government, state or local, will provide an option open to any member of the public (one not limited to your employer, which is an absolutely worthless system) is provided a portal for health care. Why should my employer be forced to foot half the cost of my health care? It only serves to limit the expandability of small businesses by preventing them from competing with larger companies who can afford to offer health care to their employees.
And if so many of us are worried that too many Americans will accept the public option, has been expressed on this topic so far, then why are any of you simultaneously heralding the beauty of neoliberal fiscal policies, which all stem from the idea that the market will bring joy to us all because we will use our collective voice, and the only one that matters to anyone in power (where we spend our money), and show private health care what kind of a system we prefer. One that regulates stipulations.
Oh, and for the person I'm replying to, lets not forget the numerous health care provider scandals that our country has seen. Go read The Rainmaker. Being that John Grisham is a lawyer, I feel confident in stating that his novel was inspired by litigation he was privy to both in his studies and as a professional. Private health care is no fine oiled machine, unless we're talking about greasing the wheels with money.
Edit: One page back there is a post comparing public health care to the DMV, for those of you who missed it.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
And now you will have to accept the fact that you live in a democracy, and the democracy has spoken. We chose Obama because we felt he was the best man at representing the wants of the PEOPLE, not some apathetic, asocial dolt who could "care less what happens" to the entire country. What do I care for the epithets or promises of capitalism when millions of Americans are in danger. When little kids in Brooklyn are dying from health issues that stem from rampant construction that is headed by one of your kin (Bruce Ratner), over developing in a downtown area that is congested as is. I care more for those who support this economy, the tens of millions of under-paid, ill-represented Americans whose lives make this "capitalist" economy work.
So if we're all to shut our mouths and "stay out of your pocket" (as if you receive no benefit from the society you live in and thus are not obligated to repay your debt to all of us, just as we pay to all of you) then I suggest you stay out of our country.
Edit: Missed a space between care and less. It said, ". . . some dolt who could careless . . ." Funny, but needed revising.
Still doesn't negate the fact that government run health care is not private industry/capitalism. Capitalsim works if you let it run it's course. Also if you don't think your taxes will go up your either a moron or a hardcore democrat and a raise in taxes is the last thing this coutry needs. What happened to free enterprise and capitalism, what now I have to take care of my neighbor when he's sick? F*ck that, this is a free country and I don't have to do sh*t for my neighbors. Stay out of my wallet hippie and go join greenpeace if you want to save lives, I don't give a sh*t who dies, just stay out of my wallet.
Also you could of just quoted me instead of saying that post on the last page.
And now you will have to accept the fact that you live in a democracy, and the democracy has spoken. We chose Obama because we felt he was the best man at representing the wants of the PEOPLE, not some apathetic, asocial dolt who could "care less what happens" to the entire country. What do I care for the epithets or promises of capitalism when millions of Americans are in danger. When little kids in Brooklyn are dying from health issues that stem from rampant construction that is headed by one of your kin (Bruce Ratner), over developing in a downtown area that is congested as is. I care more for those who support this economy, the tens of millions of under-paid, ill-represented Americans whose lives make this "capitalist" economy work.
So if we're all to shut our mouths and "stay out of your pocket" (as if you receive no benefit from the society you live in and thus are not obligated to repay your debt to all of us, just as we pay to all of you) then I suggest you stay out of our country.
Edit: Missed a space between care and less. It said, ". . . some dolt who could careless . . ." Funny, but needed revising.
Lol I like how my ideas don't burden you but your ideas put a burden on me (my wallet). Also I think their was a country that tried to treat everyone the same and spilt the wealth equally among the ppl, hmm what was that country called?......Your ideas will lead america to the bread lines.
Also if I affend you I apologize.
Trolls = Hardcore
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The only posts I read in threads are my own.
You're clearly missing the point. Your ideas do affect us. All of us. If we live as isolated individuals, hell bent on making more money and doing what's best juts for us, we wind up with situations like that of the poor people in Maine who had to rely on Hugo Chavez, of all people, to come provide affordable oil for heating; situations like the one I spoke of in Brooklyn, where the Atlantic Yards construction is costing the city millions and gives nothing but false promise (do we really think that a part-time job selling sodas at the New York Nets basketball arena can be called sustainable employment?) and health care concerns, or the wretched economic damage that my home, Michigan, saw once the Big Three showed their contempt for Americans and moved huge numbers of jobs out of the region.
When you care only for yourself you do have a rather large impact on all of us. And when you limit your concept of impact to a simple financial metric, as if quality of life and thus human existence is best summed up by commas and a dollar sign, you're no closer to understanding the impact you have on us than before the conversation started. And that's the problem with your economic/political theory; it limits itself to a set of ideals that completely ignore the true value of life and happiness.
All I'm saying is that if you want to save the world and be a hero do it on your own dime. I think the best thing you can teach someone is self-reliance. Instead we have ppl with 5 kids and no job waiting for their welfare checks so they can buy drugs all because ppl like you "feel bad" for them. If I had my way then if your not working then you starve, if it was that way a guarantee everybody would be working but nope they just keep getting your charity and contine to waste my money and free healthcare only promotes them to be even more lazy.
Also your wrong my ideas don't affect you at all. (srry was gonna edit and finish this but got d/c)
My ideas only have a negative impact on lazy people and people that aren't motivated to make something of themselves. Survival of the fittest still pertains to humans.
Trolls = Hardcore
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The only posts I read in threads are my own.
What polls cite Americans liking health care the way it is?? It is a mess and everyone except the gullible knows it. Your life depends on a for-profit health clerk deciding whether you get benefits. Kinda like PC customer support.
As for Texas seceding I'm all for it! The state that is proud to be dumb...
So if I just say, "Well mine don't affect you either, because they're just ideas," does that make me right?
How many low income families to live next to or deal with on an average day. How many times have you been to the Henry Street Settlement Center and seen a stream of parents come in for free classes to get skills that you probbaly received, gratis I might add, at your public school when you were growing up? How many mothers have you seen cry uncontrollably because, despite how hard they're trying (and you see them there every day, and you work with them every day, and you can verify that they are in fact trying every day) they can't land a job that lasts for more than a month because the economy is dwindling so fast. If people with Master's and Ph.D's can't get a job now, because the economy is struggling, what do you think the life is like for someone who grew up in an impoverished neighborhood must be like. For someone who didn't have the same opportunities and benefits that most of us were blessed with?
Before you start opening your mouth about drug addicts and poor people and laziness, consider the words of a man far more intelligent and caring than I assume you are. "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville understood very well how difficult it is to adjust to a society that condemns you for the trappings of the environment that you were raised into. And it is nothing short of self-righteous and pompous to imagine that you know how difficult that existence is, and you know with any measure of actuality what temptations they are afflicted by or what damage they have suffered. If you don't care, that's fine. But don't cry when the rest of the country does, and when we demand of every member of our country to pitch in to help.
Never forget the benefits you've received from your free education. And if you were unfortunate enough to grow up in a poor neighborhood that offered the kind of deplorable environment and "studies" that I've been privy to, congratulations on getting out. But remember that it only happend through the charity and good grace of selfless individuals, and not the selfish.
I just saw your edit. I cannot believe that someone would be so callous as to cite Darwin's theory of evolution. By that standard, any child who suffered negligent parenting would be forfeit and left to die. Is that what you believe? The majority of the world's population would agree that a mindless, blind watchmaker (to quote Dawkins) is the least effective model to follow when it comes to sentient, CARING beings and those in need.
And to expand, how can you say, without mocking yourself, that you're all about teaching self reliance? These lazy fools that you purport to limit your impact to (and it doesn't end there, it spreads like cancer) were taught exactly what you were? What about those of them whose parents were worse than they are, who taught nothing but avarice and vice, who left their children to fend for themselves? I am stricken by as much outrage as any when I hear of a family left wanting for care because one or both parents fled in search of drugs or crime or whatever else. We should force ourselves to remeber that our outrage stems from the kind of damage that such a scenario can impart on the children. If that is the case, what kind of damage might the perpetrator have suffered?
My advice to you, Cyborg99, is that if you don't care about the rest of us, stay out of conversations that involve the rest of us.
Bonzar, I don't blame you for playing the victim card because you've probably been brainwashed by the liberal media. Why tough it out and work hard when you can just give up and say your a victim. Now your saying that it tough out in the real world and people are trying, ok I'll accept some people are trying but I've seen people go from slums to becoming very succesful and I respect them. What I don't respect is people that can't find jobs, thats bs, I see help wanted signs all over the place. If you can't find a job your not trying hard enough and if your starving thats because of your own laziness. And as for you quote I've worked for my wealth and nothing was given to me so Herman's quote is fail.
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The only posts I read in threads are my own.