I keep reading in this tread tlking about how this national healthcare will lower costs. WHy not work on what is causing there to be such high costs in the first place. Why not work on limiting frivalous lawsuits and enormous awards in lawsuits. Help to bring down the liability costs of doctors and hospitals. Hy brother in lawlaw is a doctor and has to pay huge insurance payments just incase he gets sued. Why not help to lower the costs of educating the doctors and nurses so they dont have to graduate with 100's K in student loans. Why not look at why medicenes and trreatments cost so much in the firstplace. Why is that it keeps being said that the way to fix this is to have the govt be the insurer when the last i heard is the costs for the govt run programs increase at at rate faster that the private. The goverment already insures like 30% of the US pop with medcare and medicade and it cant run those programs well. Thoe programs dont have enoughmoney lready and the new govt healthcare is suposed to get money from those programs. I dont see the govt insurance as a fix but more of a bandaid that going to just coverup the real problem. How much the Helathcare costs not the insurance. IF you lower the costs of helathcare the costs of insurance will decrease. Also why wont the goverment allow you to choose what coverage you want like you can on say automobile insurance. On auto i can get just liablilty. But on medical you must take everything. the goverment forcess them to offer all types of coversuch that i dont want. All i want is catsyophic health insurance for major emerancies. I can pay for the random normal doctors vistis is the BIG medical i need covered but that not an option.
I just saw your edit. I cannot believe that someone would be so callous as to cite Darwin's theory of evolution. By that standard, any child who suffered negligent parenting would be forfeit and left to die. Is that what you believe? The majority of the world's population would agree that a mindless, blind watchmaker (to quote Dawkins) is the least effective model to follow when it comes to sentient, CARING beings and those in need. And to expand, how can you say, without mocking yourself, that you're all about teaching self reliance? These lazy fools that you purport to limit your impact to (and it doesn't end there, it spreads like cancer) were taught exactly what you were? What about those of them whose parents were worse than they are, who taught nothing but avarice and vice, who left their children to fend for themselves? I am stricken by as much outrage as any when I hear of a family left wanting for care because one or both parents fled in search of drugs or crime or whatever else. We should force ourselves to remeber that our outrage stems from the kind of damage that such a scenario can impart on the children. If that is the case, what kind of damage might the perpetrator have suffered? My advice to you, Cyborg99, is that if you don't care about the rest of us, stay out of conversations that involve the rest of us.
Lol, don't get all worked up. Just trying to have a civil conversation. So humans are above evolution hmmmm......I don't think so. As much as you would like to deny it because it sounds "scary" to you,it is a fact of life. Now for the parenting thing, every human has it engrained in his head that they want to suceed in life and in order to that you need to make money. Now saying a child can't make it because he had bad parents is bs. Again I've seen people who have been molested and beaten by their parents become succeful, if they can do it why can't everyone else. Again it goes back to your victim thinking which is nothing but people using an excuse to be lazy.
The reason I ended my post as I did was poignant. If you admit that you don't care about anyone but yourself, how could we possibly expect you to understand the human plight? That's why you should stay out of conversations that involve more than just yourself. You're a solipsist and believe that if it's in you it must be in everyone. And then you assume that everyone who grew up in a slum or under a broken home suffered the exact same. You believe all of this because your life works and you're okay, so whatever. You've said as much yourself.
As for this whole, "I know people who got out of the slum, blah blah blah". If that's the case, remember what I said. Those who make it out always, ALWAYS make it out because of the generosity and support of others. Never because they did it all themselves. Your *(edited from You're) statement, that you've made all your wealth on your own, is a lie. You either received public education, or your parents were able to make enough money (or be in a position advantageous enough) to send you to private (edited from public, god this post was bad) school. If you own a business, then you owe a huge debt to your workers, to the tax deductions and public benefits afforded to small business owners. There isn't a single aspect of your life, and thus your wealth that you covet so much, that you don't owe a small or large debt to someone else for. Unless you're living like Ted Kacynski, in which case you should stop immediately.
I agree very much with the previuos post in regards to limiting egregious lawsuits. I think that reform is a major part of the solution. I'm sure that a number of neoliberals will come in and agree, so long as that reform is limited to supporting the doctors and the health care insurers. What about reform that affects the responsibilities and freedoms of doctors and insurers, though? I remember reading an article that I am hard pressed to find now, although perhaps another reader can provide a source for it, regarding an amateur hockey player who was prescribed medication by his doctor for an injury. The medication led to a complication that cost the young man his leg and it turned out that the doctor had just that day received the medication because he was a shareholder in the pharmaceutical firm that manufactured the drug. Doctors need to be protected and so do patients. If we agree that the fiscal burden that is malpractice insurance (and frivolous lawsuits) are not the correct answer, who does it fall on? I can't think of anyone but our government.
Edit: And I meant to clarify my statement on evolution. While it does have its effects, let us not forget that we do not in any way control evolution, since we have no idea what many genes do and even if we did we have no hope (currently) of understanding or controlling methylation patterns during development. That being the case, evolution only concerns itself with what happens to members of a species before they reach child bearing age. After that, all bets are off. Why do you think chances of cancer ramp up so high as you get older? Because those individuals who died of cancer before having children didn't propogate. And the reason for so many issues with back pain in older humans? Because we evolved into bipedals from quadrapeds. Back pain during the evolution of man for younger members meant they would die before they could give birth. Once they gave birth it didn't matter. The point is that evolution is soulless, it has no affection or desire to better human life. If you want to model yourself on a soulless, apathetic biological phenomenon, go for it. That won't stop me from calling you out for being soulless.
The reason I ended my post as I did was poignant. If you admit that you don't care about anyone but yourself, how could we possibly expect you to understand the human plight? That's why you should stay out of conversations that involve more than just yourself. You're a solipsist and believe that if it's in you it must be in everyone. And then you assume that everyone who grew up in a slum or under a broken home suffered the exact same. You believe all of this because your life works and you're okay, so whatever. You've said as much yourself. As for this whole, "I know people who got out of the slum, blah blah blah". If that's the case, remember what I said. Those who make it out always, ALWAYS make it out because of the generosity and support of others. Never because they did it all themselves. You're statement, that you've made all your wealth on your own, is a lie. You either received public education, or your parents were able to make enough money (or be in a position advantageous enough) to send you to public school. If you own a business, then you owe a huge debt to your workers, to the tax deductions and public benefits afforded to small business owners. There isn't a single aspect of your life, and thus your wealth that you covet so much, that you don't owe a small or large debt to someone else for. Unless you're living like Ted Kacynski, in which case you should stop immediately. I agree very much with the previuos post in regards to limiting egregious lawsuits. I think that reform is a major part of the solution. I'm sure that a number of neoliberals will come in and agree, so long as that reform is limited to supporting the doctors and the health care insurers. What about reform that affects the responsibilities and freedoms of doctors and insurers, though? I remember reading an article that I am hard pressed to find now, although perhaps another reader can provide a source for it, regarding an amateur hockey player who was prescribed medication by his doctor for an injury. The medication led to a complication that cost the young man his leg and it turned out that the doctor had just that day received the medication because he was a shareholder in the pharmaceutical firm that manufactured the drug. Doctors need to be protected and so do patients. If we agree that the fiscal burden that is malpractice insurance (and frivolous lawsuits) are not the correct answer, who does it fall on? I can't think of anyone but our government.
Lol I have to look up half the words that you use. I'll say this in my ending aurgument:
Remember ignorance is bliss, if you try to carry the world's burdens on your shoulders you'll live a miserable life.
If Obama was SOE then his new health care plan would be the NGE. He is gonna try his best to shove it down our throats like SOE did the NGE and then try and convice us its for the best. He'll do this despite the polls saying that a majority of Americans are happy with their current health care, like SOE did even though the current fan base largely hated the NGE. Also like the nge, if his health care plan gets passed, it will be very difficult to roll the system back to a previous more successful state. Then you'll have EMU's pop up. This will be states like Texas that may end up seceding from the Union. That is how Obama is like SOE
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
If Obama was SOE then his new health care plan would be the NGE. He is gonna try his best to shove it down our throats like SOE did the NGE and then try and convice us its for the best. He'll do this despite the polls saying that a majority of Americans are happy with their current health care, like SOE did even though the current fan base largely hated the NGE. Also like the nge, if his health care plan gets passed, it will be very difficult to roll the system back to a previous more successful state. Then you'll have EMU's pop up. This will be states like Texas that may end up seceding from the Union. That is how Obama is like SOE
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
*pokes head into the foggy unknown room*
what the hell is all this? The Twilight Zone?
Who the hell are all these sudden posters in off topic?
All you guys go back to teh swg threads lol.
for all you new ppl to off topic, the issue of obama's health care was solved...it is rejected by the MAJORITY of AMERICAN citizens. the end. ...and if you're not from the US, why do you care anyway? Do we go tell you guys how to run your government? beat it.
If Obama was SOE then his new health care plan would be the NGE. He is gonna try his best to shove it down our throats like SOE did the NGE and then try and convice us its for the best. He'll do this despite the polls saying that a majority of Americans are happy with their current health care, like SOE did even though the current fan base largely hated the NGE. Also like the nge, if his health care plan gets passed, it will be very difficult to roll the system back to a previous more successful state. Then you'll have EMU's pop up. This will be states like Texas that may end up seceding from the Union. That is how Obama is like SOE
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
*pokes head into the foggy unknown room*
what the hell is all this? The Twilight Zone?
Who the hell are all these sudden posters in off topic?
All you guys go back to teh swg threads lol.
for all you new ppl to off topic, the issue of obama's health care was solved...it is rejected by the MAJORITY of AMERICAN citizens. the end. ...and if you're not from the US, why do you care anyway? Do we go tell you guys how to run your government? beat it.
Finally a post in this thread i understand. *gramps goes back to cleaning his gun*
I dont see why people would be against a public option. You can still pay for private health insurance which entitles you to visit capitalist doctors not available to the public.
It amazes me it took this long for America to get what everyone else in the developed world has had it in some cases for nearly 60 years . Its actually quite a disgrace that its taken so long in the worlds richest country . I think its brilliant that finally that not only the richer half of the nation will get access to decent medical care . In the UK there were right wing opponents to the health service now they support it . Once its implimented theres no going back and woe betide any one that trys . I just love how people like the OP must be grinding their teeth at night because of it . All i can say to the likes of him welcome to the20 th century . ( i knows it ths 21 st but lets face it most of us had free health care last century ). GOOD FOR AMERICA . I m actually starting to like your country again after feeling sheer hate towards it for the last 8 years . Its going to take a while for the rest of the world to trust you again after burning so many bridges but your finally heading in the right direction .
The problem with what Obama proposes is that he is going to flood the current, and already overtaxed health care staff and doctors with many more patients. These people will start making less money to do more work. There will be no incentive to become a doctor or work in the medical field. Sure people will still do it but it will be harder to find those willing to. If its so great in the rest of the civilized world why do so many flood in from Canada as well as other countries to here to get treated. The answer is that those single payer systems will just let you die slowly while you wait in que, much like the old time world of warcraft ques to get into BG, or just turn you down because its too expensive to save your life. Do you want your government to decide if grandma is worth saving. Our system needs reform, like a small patch file, or the CU for SWG. Not a radical change (like the NGE) that will cost many billions when we are already Trillions in debt. I've worked in hospital ER's for 10 years, We never denied anyone care, even took in a few homeless from time to time and all they wanted was a warm place to be and a hot cup of soup. Also, everyone has medical bills here, its accepted as a part of life and most creditors ignore hospital bills when looking at credit. As for joining the rest of the world, we watch football here not soccer, sorry i meant futbol.
If Obama was SOE then his new health care plan would be the NGE. He is gonna try his best to shove it down our throats like SOE did the NGE and then try and convice us its for the best. He'll do this despite the polls saying that a majority of Americans are happy with their current health care, like SOE did even though the current fan base largely hated the NGE. Also like the nge, if his health care plan gets passed, it will be very difficult to roll the system back to a previous more successful state. Then you'll have EMU's pop up. This will be states like Texas that may end up seceding from the Union. That is how Obama is like SOE
Originally posted by huxflux2004The freedom to pursue life and the government to guarantee that the system does not brake down is represented by Obama and the Democrats - at least that is what is closest to it currently. Don't mistake the right to own gun with civil liberties. It is just a cheap trick to make you think the Republicans are "liberal". People don't need guns in a correctly working society anyway.
Sorry but I just had to respond to this since I've seen it come up a few times. The true reason that we believe so fervently in our right to bear arms, and the reason that one whole amendment out of ten was dedicated to it was so that we could defend ourselves against the government if the time came that we had to. I'll mention just one that everyone should know about, find it here http://www.gunregistration.org/ read down a little, or search night of the broken glass. The Nazi Germans used their gun registration laws to target Jews with guns first and disarm them systematically implementing stricter laws, eventually taking the threat of Jews banding together and fighting back with guns away. Since when does anything go perfectly anyway. No society will work "correctly" all the time, so that is a moot argument, especially when a correctly working society is so subjective to the individual.
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I am not sure I understand, but didn't you have a Bush administration since 2000? Again, I might not understand your point here.
Bush took office Jan 2001, he was elected in Nov 2000.
Think of Obama took office Jan 2009 was elected Nov 2008
SOE are saints by comparison. SOE only screw people with the money they take from people who give it up VOLUNTARILY; Obama is doing the same thing with the money he takes through force.
A crappy company can never be as bad as a crappy government.
SOE are saints by comparison. SOE only screw people with the money they take from people who give it up VOLUNTARILY; Obama is doing the same thing with the money he takes through force. A crappy company can never be as bad as a crappy government.
You beat me to it. With SOE we can quit and move onto something better. With Obama's healthcare we are stuck forever with whatever we get.
Comments
I keep reading in this tread tlking about how this national healthcare will lower costs. WHy not work on what is causing there to be such high costs in the first place. Why not work on limiting frivalous lawsuits and enormous awards in lawsuits. Help to bring down the liability costs of doctors and hospitals. Hy brother in lawlaw is a doctor and has to pay huge insurance payments just incase he gets sued. Why not help to lower the costs of educating the doctors and nurses so they dont have to graduate with 100's K in student loans. Why not look at why medicenes and trreatments cost so much in the firstplace. Why is that it keeps being said that the way to fix this is to have the govt be the insurer when the last i heard is the costs for the govt run programs increase at at rate faster that the private. The goverment already insures like 30% of the US pop with medcare and medicade and it cant run those programs well. Thoe programs dont have enoughmoney lready and the new govt healthcare is suposed to get money from those programs. I dont see the govt insurance as a fix but more of a bandaid that going to just coverup the real problem. How much the Helathcare costs not the insurance. IF you lower the costs of helathcare the costs of insurance will decrease. Also why wont the goverment allow you to choose what coverage you want like you can on say automobile insurance. On auto i can get just liablilty. But on medical you must take everything. the goverment forcess them to offer all types of coversuch that i dont want. All i want is catsyophic health insurance for major emerancies. I can pay for the random normal doctors vistis is the BIG medical i need covered but that not an option.
Lol, don't get all worked up. Just trying to have a civil conversation. So humans are above evolution hmmmm......I don't think so. As much as you would like to deny it because it sounds "scary" to you,it is a fact of life. Now for the parenting thing, every human has it engrained in his head that they want to suceed in life and in order to that you need to make money. Now saying a child can't make it because he had bad parents is bs. Again I've seen people who have been molested and beaten by their parents become succeful, if they can do it why can't everyone else. Again it goes back to your victim thinking which is nothing but people using an excuse to be lazy.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
The reason I ended my post as I did was poignant. If you admit that you don't care about anyone but yourself, how could we possibly expect you to understand the human plight? That's why you should stay out of conversations that involve more than just yourself. You're a solipsist and believe that if it's in you it must be in everyone. And then you assume that everyone who grew up in a slum or under a broken home suffered the exact same. You believe all of this because your life works and you're okay, so whatever. You've said as much yourself.
As for this whole, "I know people who got out of the slum, blah blah blah". If that's the case, remember what I said. Those who make it out always, ALWAYS make it out because of the generosity and support of others. Never because they did it all themselves. Your *(edited from You're) statement, that you've made all your wealth on your own, is a lie. You either received public education, or your parents were able to make enough money (or be in a position advantageous enough) to send you to private (edited from public, god this post was bad) school. If you own a business, then you owe a huge debt to your workers, to the tax deductions and public benefits afforded to small business owners. There isn't a single aspect of your life, and thus your wealth that you covet so much, that you don't owe a small or large debt to someone else for. Unless you're living like Ted Kacynski, in which case you should stop immediately.
I agree very much with the previuos post in regards to limiting egregious lawsuits. I think that reform is a major part of the solution. I'm sure that a number of neoliberals will come in and agree, so long as that reform is limited to supporting the doctors and the health care insurers. What about reform that affects the responsibilities and freedoms of doctors and insurers, though? I remember reading an article that I am hard pressed to find now, although perhaps another reader can provide a source for it, regarding an amateur hockey player who was prescribed medication by his doctor for an injury. The medication led to a complication that cost the young man his leg and it turned out that the doctor had just that day received the medication because he was a shareholder in the pharmaceutical firm that manufactured the drug. Doctors need to be protected and so do patients. If we agree that the fiscal burden that is malpractice insurance (and frivolous lawsuits) are not the correct answer, who does it fall on? I can't think of anyone but our government.
Edit: And I meant to clarify my statement on evolution. While it does have its effects, let us not forget that we do not in any way control evolution, since we have no idea what many genes do and even if we did we have no hope (currently) of understanding or controlling methylation patterns during development. That being the case, evolution only concerns itself with what happens to members of a species before they reach child bearing age. After that, all bets are off. Why do you think chances of cancer ramp up so high as you get older? Because those individuals who died of cancer before having children didn't propogate. And the reason for so many issues with back pain in older humans? Because we evolved into bipedals from quadrapeds. Back pain during the evolution of man for younger members meant they would die before they could give birth. Once they gave birth it didn't matter. The point is that evolution is soulless, it has no affection or desire to better human life. If you want to model yourself on a soulless, apathetic biological phenomenon, go for it. That won't stop me from calling you out for being soulless.
Lol I have to look up half the words that you use. I'll say this in my ending aurgument:
Remember ignorance is bliss, if you try to carry the world's burdens on your shoulders you'll live a miserable life.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
*pokes head into the foggy unknown room*
what the hell is all this? The Twilight Zone?
Who the hell are all these sudden posters in off topic?
All you guys go back to teh swg threads lol.
for all you new ppl to off topic, the issue of obama's health care was solved...it is rejected by the MAJORITY of AMERICAN citizens. the end. ...and if you're not from the US, why do you care anyway? Do we go tell you guys how to run your government? beat it.
Now this is a terrific post..Nice one Rekkor.HA HA
*pokes head into the foggy unknown room*
what the hell is all this? The Twilight Zone?
Who the hell are all these sudden posters in off topic?
All you guys go back to teh swg threads lol.
for all you new ppl to off topic, the issue of obama's health care was solved...it is rejected by the MAJORITY of AMERICAN citizens. the end. ...and if you're not from the US, why do you care anyway? Do we go tell you guys how to run your government? beat it.
Finally a post in this thread i understand. *gramps goes back to cleaning his gun*
I dont see why people would be against a public option. You can still pay for private health insurance which entitles you to visit capitalist doctors not available to the public.
The problem with what Obama proposes is that he is going to flood the current, and already overtaxed health care staff and doctors with many more patients. These people will start making less money to do more work. There will be no incentive to become a doctor or work in the medical field. Sure people will still do it but it will be harder to find those willing to. If its so great in the rest of the civilized world why do so many flood in from Canada as well as other countries to here to get treated. The answer is that those single payer systems will just let you die slowly while you wait in que, much like the old time world of warcraft ques to get into BG, or just turn you down because its too expensive to save your life. Do you want your government to decide if grandma is worth saving. Our system needs reform, like a small patch file, or the CU for SWG. Not a radical change (like the NGE) that will cost many billions when we are already Trillions in debt. I've worked in hospital ER's for 10 years, We never denied anyone care, even took in a few homeless from time to time and all they wanted was a warm place to be and a hot cup of soup. Also, everyone has medical bills here, its accepted as a part of life and most creditors ignore hospital bills when looking at credit. As for joining the rest of the world, we watch football here not soccer, sorry i meant futbol.
LOL...brilliant
Sorry but I just had to respond to this since I've seen it come up a few times. The true reason that we believe so fervently in our right to bear arms, and the reason that one whole amendment out of ten was dedicated to it was so that we could defend ourselves against the government if the time came that we had to. I'll mention just one that everyone should know about, find it here http://www.gunregistration.org/ read down a little, or search night of the broken glass. The Nazi Germans used their gun registration laws to target Jews with guns first and disarm them systematically implementing stricter laws, eventually taking the threat of Jews banding together and fighting back with guns away. Since when does anything go perfectly anyway. No society will work "correctly" all the time, so that is a moot argument, especially when a correctly working society is so subjective to the individual.
For the sake of the comparison, not the matter itself, it's the most ridiculous metaphor I've seen in the recent months! Kudos!
Well, I understand what you are saying. Let me remind you what too much freedom to the financial institutions did. And since America is not on its own planet, this freedom hurt the entire global economic system (which includes American companies that trade abroad).
Go back and you will find the changes to what was made by the government in the 2000 to 2004 era de-regulated areas that lead to this finiacial fail. None of those government "friends" are being held accountable yet, they performed a basic "ponzy" schedme for which Madoff (sp) is being accused.
I am not sure I understand, but didn't you have a Bush administration since 2000? Again, I might not understand your point here.
Bush took office Jan 2001, he was elected in Nov 2000.
Think of Obama took office Jan 2009 was elected Nov 2008
The real truth on Obamacare.
LINK
I agree but, what a lively and ( for the most part ) civil debate that has grown from it!
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
SOE are saints by comparison. SOE only screw people with the money they take from people who give it up VOLUNTARILY; Obama is doing the same thing with the money he takes through force.
A crappy company can never be as bad as a crappy government.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You beat me to it. With SOE we can quit and move onto something better. With Obama's healthcare we are stuck forever with whatever we get.