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Open PVP.. gayness
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EvE has done away with levels and grinding and although individual character skills / money is still obviously an effect, HP is by ship type thus a low end carebear and a high end pk'er are not as different as a lv10 v. a lv50. That said the pk'er obviously has the advantage in a numebr of areas.
All mmo will have griefers, not gona get rid of them. All mmo should be pvp as why else would you play a mmo, there are plenty of solo games to play if you want to be left alone.
Not all pvp is griefing or consensual, there is the middle ground as well. In eve you do not have to iniate an attack by asking to fight like a dual, in the right areas you just lock target and fire away, it is consensual in that if you are in that area of the game you know it could happen at any time. These area are not restricted to anyone, so a day 1 player could go there, which to me makes alot of sense. Some players still complain about being killed / griefed, but they are usualy flamed if it comes out they were in one of these areas, as you go there you know the risks.
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
I already told you that the game is much different than it was in beta. The classes are balanced now and sieging is a lot better. And you think levels play a big role in Shadowbane?LOL you can get to lvl 50 in a couple days. And there is almost no difference in a lvl 50 and a lvl 70.
Talking about how things were in beta two years ago just makes you sound like an idiot.
k thnks bye
It was funny in D&D forum. First time I see the PvP crowd owning up to the real reasons behind it all. IN their "Twitch" discussion, PvPer after PvPer came in and talked about how they would hate that when PvP was added to the game, because a twitch player would kill them even if they had good stats, because.. they sucked at Twitch games like Counter Strike and such. Laughed my socks off.
In years now, year after year, no matter how many times you speak against them, they have come dragging with "PKing takes skill, its hard" while all people aroudn them say""wheres the skill in pressign a button and wait"
"Noooooooooooooooooo! We are leet, we ownzs, ye suxxors we are, PvP!" And.. more times than not they come and say they rule Counter Strike as well, oh yes sirreee, they just dislike to play it that much.
Will always be my standpoint. I PvP a lot. In real games with real skill, like Counter Strike, Day of Defeat, Battlefield 1942 and such. Anythign else, especially "press a button and wait"... yer just a bunch of wannkers that try to sound kewl for finding the right button. "No, darnit I pressed F!"
I agree with original poster. We know who you are, guys... Just go to Shadowbane and leave the rest of the world alone. Talentless children
Only game I wait for right now: Imperator.
Go Mythic!
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Awww my favorite "can't debate for crap" poster FINWE!
Then you haven't seen or heard much, marking you a moron:) There is a coorlation between what people do when given the conquences-free oppturnity....and what they would do given the conquences-free oppurtunity^_^ It does not so much matter where and how this oppturunity is presented, they will take advantage of it. Weather that means PKing someone online or rapeing a passed out girl at a party.
Actually it's been shown that some of the origonal EQ devs were sadists. They display sadistic behivor and behave in sadistic ways in their personal lives....It's no suprise that that shines through in the design of EQ.
As for risk Vs reward, there are other ways of provideing it than giveing someone a 100% chance to gank you. Such as a death penalty.
See finwe, you are an idiot:) Idiots like you belive that because something is true for them it must be true for everyone. Only idiots think that way because smart people can see outside their own little world:) Meaning, you aren't a smart person, but are an idiot instead:)
There are thrill-seekers, approxamativly 2.5% of the N american population, and there are risk-minimizers, Everyone Else. It's genetic, so it's OK that you are an idiot, because it's because you are genetically inferior:)
Haveing the thrill-seeker gene makes a person...get a thrill out of risk. You ENJOY the risk of being insta-ganked because you were born that way. Nothing is ever going to change that. You'd probaly love Extreme sports too. Here's an idea. Sign up for the military....You'll like it, trust me. Genetically inferior people, in the way you are, always do:)
For the rest of mankind, 97.5% of us, we don't so much enjoy a high risk of massive loss. The genetically normal people prefer instead to minimize the chance of loss...That means low death penalty and no risk of being ganked by other players.
That's because you are an inferior mutant Finwe:) Please don't try to force your genes off onto us:)
Xira, you sure do talk alot of shit about things you dont know.
1st) I find your military example amusing as all the people I know in the service value their lives more than most people. Risk of what they do makes them realize what they have. To say they are stupid shows your ignorance and stupidty and im completely disgusted by your lack of respect.
2nd) Your assuption that 97% of people are cowards is a little off. 3% are total maniacs hungering for a thrill, the bottom 3% are complete cowards not even living a real life because of fear (your group). The other 94% of people evaluate things situation to situation, compare the value vs risk in their actions and then make a choice. Alot of these are very little things that most people do without thinking about them. If your basing your percentage on the group of people that tie a sign to themselves saying "I hate n*ggers" and go to the hood for a causal thrill.....yeah thats a very small number. Then again, if thats what you base your percentage on, then your not grounded in real life anyways.
Yeah, no one likes thrills....thats why:
skydiving
bungyjumping
mountain climbing
etc......
are so popular.
That's because you are an inferior mutant Xira:) Please don't try to force your ignorance off onto us:)
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Goddam forums ate my post.
Look opie you quote sport that aren't extreme. Mabey they were Xtreme 30 years ago, but they ain't now.
They present a TINY risk with modern technology versus a decent payoff in 'fun'.
Mabey if you are some old shrivvled up grandpa you might consider em Xtreme, but they ain't.
Ask yourself this, oh highnmighty. Who plays Slamball?
Most normall genetically competant people preform a risk Vs reward analysis on all of these things. They don't play Slamball, they do skydive. One is worth the tiny risk, the other is not worth the huge risk.
The thing your not realizing is that a MMORPG is a game. Getting killed in a game is a SMALL risk.
Adds alot of thrill to your experience for a very small risk. Oh no, you lose some items maybe and have to walk back to what you were doing...in a game.
Im stil waiting for what makes this so horrible. Its good for the whol community as it creates smarter gamers. You know, in 3 years of UO, I can count the times on my hands when I was pked when I wasnt in a place where I knew id run into trouble.
You know why? Cause I think when I play. If you know there are pks in a cave somewhere, you dont near that cave unless your looking for trouble!
Do you go to the bad parts of town by yourself at night with a nice gold watch on then go blame the police when your get mugged? Of course not, its common sense...so why is common sense such as rare commodity in gaming communities?
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Open PK games/servers are the only way to go... i wont play a game without pvp, and if you have pvp, it cant be consentual... where is the excitement and randomness of getting to choose when someone is going to be able to attack you...
personally, i think they should make open pvp servers, not games. WOW for instance should have a server where it will be open pvp. but i also like lvl restrictions, 8 or 10 is a fair number.
at any rate, why bitch about it? all your doing is proving you cant hack it on a PVP server, so stay care bare and dont ruin the exp for everyone that likes pvp. you dont see pvp'ers making attempts to mess with PVE, so why it is PVEers always mess with the pvp aspect of a game?
i mean seriously people, relax. if you dont like it, dont play it. if you play it dont gripe. if you gripe, quit or do something about it.
just some thoughts from a 5 year TZ vet (Trust me on this, Tallon had as much ganking as you could expect with lvl restrictions, and you learn to take it and give it and even enjoy it.)
ps. maybe people that complain about open pvp are just not good enough players to handle the random attacks? not strong enough mentally to handle the harrassment? weak notches. bluebies.
open pvp is the best
you get attacked - you live or die. builds character
are you kidding me?... so wait, because i had a PK character in L2, im no better (mentally) then people who beat their dogs/children/woman?
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Games Played - Too many to list~
Games Currently Playing - City of Heroes
Favorite Game So Far - Lineage 1 ^^
Waiting For - WoW (OB is gonna be hell T_T l337 d3wdz everywhere =_=)
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Wow do you have a reading filter or some kind of disorder? Not only you didn't proove anything and didn't refute most of the points I brought, but you couldn't stick to the argueing. If I remember well, you said UO PvP sucked, then you didn't bring up ONE valuable reason why it does "suck". All you've said was that SB had sieges and somehow, UO has nothing beside plain PvP?!? Have you even played it? It seems rather obvious you haven't. Let's me repeat this last paragraphe I wrote :
As for UO, it was the best game until EA bought it. A GrandMaster smith chain and plate armor cost about nothing, if you couldn't afford one, then you didn't know how to play the game, therefore you couldn't enjoy it because were a newb, so you can't compare the PvP aspect of any of these games.
If you want to continue to argue about UO ans SB, go ahead although this topic is about PvP, something we both enjoy.
Back on the topic, I've seen much more immaturity in EQ than I did within UO. I've seen people cry to get the help from the guild to farm items for their alts. I've seen a plenty of people calling names, being racist, etc. I've seen guilds fight over bosses, even KSing them. I've seen people fight over loot. I've seen "Higher Ranked" Guilds call everyone else newbs because they couldn't kill boss X. I've seen players training on purpose. And in UO, beside PKing, I've seen people calling names and that's about it. So the PvE vs PvP games is retarded.
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
People are exagerating here... its just a game. But... a game is made to be fun and by killing newbies your ruinning their gaming experience.
You feel were bitching on you ? well, are you killing newbies or picking fair fights ? if your answer is 1, yeah we are. Funny, in all those post there's not a single non-PKer defending your side.
Seriously, i think PKer (those who kill newbies only) should be bannned. Ive got nothing against PKing in open PvP area, thats their reason to be. PKing people who are able to win over the PKer is fine too. Only the newbie killers are real cowards and dumb immature people.
Im gonna repeat myself but Ryzom is awsome for PvP. You get everything : open PvP area, guild/race wars and Duels are avalaible in all other area. Fair and fun.
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"You feel were bitching on you ? well, are you killing newbies or picking fair fights ? if your answer is 1, yeah we are. Funny, in all those post there's not a single non-PKer defending your side.
Seriously, i think PKer (those who kill newbies only) should be bannned. Ive got nothing against PKing in open PvP area, thats their reason to be. PKing people who are able to win over the PKer is fine too. Only the newbie killers are real cowards and dumb immature people."
Jesus, read what you wrote and its clear you dont understand the idea behind open pvp.
1) According to you PKs only kill newbies....thank you, but your about as wrong as a person can be. A very small majority of PKers pk newbies.
Think why people pk...usually to get your stuff. Newbies dont have much. Add that into a decent pvp system (old UO) where there are real costs for your actions and it doesnt make any sense. Why take a 40 hour murder count for a few newbie items? I cam across several pks as a newbie and they left me alone as I wasnt what they were looking for.
2) A pvp area is not open pvp.........its called an arena.
Im sorry, but if you try thinking as you play youll rarely have much trouble in a open pvp game. If you dont think when you play, then you deserve to be killed.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Until there is a perfect PvP system, there will never be a time when everybody is happy. And there will never be a time when open PvP is popular.
I tried ShadowBane. Knew it was open PvP and just couldn't stand it... High level guys going to the newbie areas just to kill newbs.
I played the original UO. Their original system wasn't too bad, but it had its flaws. Rather than trying to slowly fix it, they just nixed the whole thing. Too bad...
1) According to you PKs only kill newbies....thank you, but your about as wrong as a person can be. A very small majority of PKers pk newbies.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Ok maybe i didnt make myself clear because of my poor english, as i said im french... , I know PKers are not all newbie killers... im saying ive got nothing against a PKer if he's not killing newbies for fun. That's the only thing i dont like in PKing.
2) A pvp area is not open pvp.........its called an arena.
Read my previous post :
I personally prefer playing a game where there is PvP but a with a way to prevent PK (i meant newbies killing). For exemple, im currently playing SoR and i think the PvP is awsome. First theres the Duels, wich can take place anywhere. If you want to duel someone, you just ask him and if he agree the fight starts. Theres also various open PvP area (Arena) and guild vs guild battle. Similar to L2, you can obtain an outpost for your guild and any guild may come to take over the outpost.
Thats what so painful about the whole thing. Old UO did have a good and popular open pvp system. There was a very small portion of the population that complained, but they left anyways to EQ.
It has been done before, just frustrating that no one has done it since.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
It IS NOT.
Depending on the game getting killed by a PK can cost you tens of thousands of dollars. That's real-life hard cash American dollars. Lots of em.
Lets say you get PKed in L-II and lose the best item on the server...I have utterly no clue what the hell it is or does but it costs 1200$ on Ebay. You also lose exp. Now your time might be worth nothing, but other people differ. 1200$ in nothing to a lot of people....It's loseing the 16 hours of grind that's worth 10K.
Even without item loss time==money. Your time is probaly worth nothing, my time is worth ~40$/hour, some people's time is worth easily upwards of a thousand an hour. By getting PKed they lose quite a bit of money.
In a game with full open PK you are garuenteeed to lose at some point, thus bringing the risk of loseing those thousands up to 100%.
Right? Wrong? SO what. It's reality, deal with it.
Lets talk about the Adena Inc. company based in China. If you PK one of their farmers you have cost them $$$, quite a bit of it. They have to pay that person to regain those levels and regain any items dropped to regain their Adena harvesting efficiency. I am sure they have done a cost benefit analysis and they know EXACTLY how many employees they have to have in the same area at the same time to prevent them being PKed and thus incuring that loss.
The trouble with that statement is that(Either you played after the game went Care-bear or...) that "trouble zones" comprises 90% of the gameworld.
Then the PKs come to you:) That is the universal truth of PvP games. Griefers seek to maximise risk/reward too you see:) They want the maximum gankage factor with the minimum risk. That means farming newbies where they find the newbies and scooting with the loot as fast as possible after before anyone shows up who can stop them.
2 huge holes larger than your mom's in this argument.
If there was a God and he directly intervened and could change things...You can dam well BET people would complain. Because nothing can be done about it, most people don't complain. If something could be done about it, something would be. In an online game something can ALWAYS be done about it, and so people try to have that done.
There's nothing worth going to the slums for in the slums:) It's the old risk-vs-reward argument, that man would use common sense and not get ganked in the slums because there's no REASON for him to ever go to the slums. In most games the devs provide "Incentive" to go get ganked, in most implementations for it to be effective this incentive has to be so huge that it makes playing outside the slums utterly impossible.
-----Look at EVE versus UO. In both games there are safe areas.....In UO you can get 75% of the stuff in the safe areas.....what happens? Everyone stays in the safe areas. 25% extra whatever isn't worth the 100% risk of getting ganked. In EVE Online you are GIMPED unless you go out to 0.0 space and risk being ganked. In EVE you'll be forever a newbie unless you head out to 0.0 for trade routes, deliveries, to set a mission, mine the decent ore, whatever.
Would that man go into the slums wearing a gold watch if those slums had something worth haveing to him? Most likely. And you'd dam well hear complaining about it lickity-split, citizens would demand something be done. Most likely whatever resource was only available in the slums would be moved out of the slums, or the slums would be destroyed and replaced by a safer environment.
Most likely. I didn't say it, but I agree with it.
Because you had a PK charecter you have shown your willingness to take advantage of others when there are little conquences for your actions. Taken out a bit further this means you'll take advantage of other people in other situations, even in for instance real-life, when there will be no conquences.
If you saw a man drop a 20$ bill would you pick it up and return it or keep it?
Yes I am sure there are a few PKs who draw a life between gaming and reality, there are many many more who only THINK they do because they have never been tested. You never really know what kind of man you are until you hold a life of an enemy in your hands and can simply snuff it out without conquences of any kind.l
Most people in this world think they are better people than they are. They like to pretend they draw a line they would never cross between say stealing and rape. For most this line only exists because they fear reprisals.....
Fear keeps a man in line. Fear keeps a man in God's camp. Fear keeps a man honest. What do you fear?
BEFORE EA bought UO.....The UO people, lead by Ralph Koster, did a...(Drum-roll)
Cost benefit analysis.
They estimated that Griefers cost them 500$ a month on average. Each.
That's real playes, 50 of them EVERY MONTH for EACH GRIEFER, either did not subscribe or quit because of that griefer's presence.
They did this by tracking those who complaied about a given player X and how long they stayed subscribed. They did this for many player X's.The study was unfrefutable, Griefers ruin a game.
And so you got Fellucia.
---
---
---
Incidentily the origonal UO's PvP was 'great' because there were plenty of victims who squirmed deliciously when they got PKed. PKers are the sadists in the world, they WANT their victims to complain and whine when they gank them. Thus they truely enjoyed UO because there were plenty of people who did not want to PVP but were forced to.
Well why didn't they quit? Because there wasn't anything else to play:)
The "Orional UO PVP system" was doomed to fail the instant it was thought of. Eventually another game would come out and offer what fun UO offered without the constant risk. Eventually one did- Everquest.
Everquest killed the oriognal UO, not ElecArts. When people found a place they could enjoy the game their way without the dispurpotionate risk they started leaving in droves.
If UO haden't introduced Fellucia they would have gone Bankrupt. Fellucia SAVED UO.
All you people pineing for the old UO days are just lonely little boys who are whineing they ran out of ants to fry.
Good God people, get a grip!!! I ( and others I am sure) are sooooo tired of this argument. Here's the deal.
Some people like full PvP. They are not concerned about losing items, lost exp, grind time, taunting, etc. Open PvP games are meant for these people. If a PvP'er dislikes "care bear" PvE games...DON"T PLAY THEM.
Some people hate PvP of any type. They hate griefers, zergs, ganks, whatever. If "care bears" don't like PvP, DON"T PLAY THOSE GAMES.
This continuous argument will change no one's mind and, in fact, implies that the proponent of one side of the argument believes the other type of game should not exist. There is room in the market place for both types of game design. Is it so important that "your" position be right that you feel that someone who thinks differently should not have a game that appeals to their interests? I personally hate chocolate ice cream. Does this mean that those who do like it are wrong? If I don't like a product, I just simply do not buy it. Bitching, moaning, whining, flaming of chocolate ice cream does not mean it is a bad product.....just one that I do not like.
So for both sides of this "flame war" over PvP, enjoy the games that suit your taste. Other people have different tastes. Games will be made to suit you and games will be made to suit them. Not every product brought to market had YOU as its intended customer. Get over it.
Not at all!
Rather, I think that the other side of the ARGUMENT should not contuine to exist. I have no problem with open-PvP games.
Euthenasia for a better game-world!
As for UO, it was the best game until EA bought it. A GrandMaster smith chain and plate armor cost about nothing, if you couldn't afford one, then you didn't know how to play the game, therefore you couldn't enjoy it because were a newb, so you can't compare the PvP aspect of any of these games.
If you want to continue to argue about UO ans SB, go ahead although this topic is about PvP, something we both enjoy.
I wasn't talking about regular armor. I was talking about magic armor. You save up for magic armor, then you fight one battle and its gone. That was a very dumb system.
And UO PVP sucked because it didn't have a purpose. In Shadowbane it has a purpose. You can destroy the enemy cities and take control of their land. You can also fight to control gold mines.
Shadowbane is also better because it has much better character customization. There are an incredible amount of ways you can make a character, much more than UO. More classes, races, skills etc.
The graphics in Shadowbane are also much better than UO. UO graphics are basically unplayable at this point.
I also like how track works in Shadowbane. It stops people from griefing you all the time.
You see that is the whole purpose of those argument. People in favor of all out open PvP want to be able to gank people that don't want to PvP. That is the basis of their fun.
If these people just wanted games with full on open PvP they would not be here bothering us, they would be playing Shadowbane, Lineage 2, or the PvP side of UO.
But they don't. Why? These games are full of other people who want to PK. Without hapless victims who do not want to PvP, they have no fun. They only want to PK people who do not want to fight. They want innocent helpless victims.