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Open PVP.. gayness
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But, you see, I am not trying to change the way they think. I am trying to get them to admit to the way they think. I am not saying there should not be games with ganking, I just won't play them. But gabnkers need victims. And if the game only has gankers, then they have no victims. That is why most gankers want all games to have full on open PvP.
I enjoy PvP, I played original UO, I played EQ on the Rallos Zek server. I played DAOC, ShadowBane, World War 2 Online, etc... I have tried most of them, I have never been a fan of ganking though, and many people want to be able to gank innocent victims. That is the truth. I saw it a lot in ShadowBane and it was why I quit.
EQ's Rallos Zek server had a 4 level limit to who you could attack. It made for some good fights. It was still possible to gank someone, but they usually had a fighting chance.
And, just to point out, I have not flamed anyone. Gankers want victims. It is a fact, not a flame.
There can be PvP without ganking and ridiculously unfair fights. Why is that hard to understand?
Unless of course there is an area that you can epxect to get ganked, like in the RvR sections of DAOC.
But I do not want to play a game where you have to be worried about getting ganked everywhere all the time. And most people do not want that type of game. Just ask the devs of ShadowBane about their subscription numbers.
Tasky please read
"Dear Carebears ( yeah i did this allready )
Please forgive us psychopathic 12 year olds who get high on spanking our pets and tormenting newbs in mmorpgs. We only need a hug please hug us." <-- Is this the answer your looking for in a pk´er ?
Your assumption on how PK´ers mental state is, is really scary ! It would break my heart to hurt anyone outside a game and i must object to being categorized as an individual without a heart.
I have a job, i have a girlfriend, i have 2 step children. how on earth will i apply my PK behaviour in a game to that setting in real life ?
Im a 31 years old system engineer and i havent permitted a crime in my entire life ( I havent even been in a fight in my mature life )
I enjoy all the stuff we do togheter as a family, i even explain the difference between loosing in a game and facing obstacles in real life. My 8 year old step son can deal with getting his butt kicked in a computer game without whining now !
Does this fit the profile of your pk ?
PK = The monster you cant predict ( yeah he is scary )
Cheers
Why was this directed at me?
I have never tried to connect being a PK to acting that way in real life. I think you need to reread the thread. I have never said wanting to be a ganker in game was a bad thing. You are reading more into what I am saying than is really there.
Where did I say anything about someone's mental state. All I have said is that players who want to gank other players need victims. That is all I have said. Never have I said that ganking was terrible and gankers beat their kids, or any such thing.
I am probably one of the most open minded people you will ever meet. So please, if you can quote ANYTHING in this thread or any other thread where I have said anything like that, please point it out.
I never said pk'rs were 12 year olds. I never said PK'rs suck, or carebears rule. Never.
Please re-read everything I have posted. When you have proof, come let me know. Until then, I will await your apology.
Xira,
L2 is a awful game. Thats once again a demonstration of people against open pvp using bad games as exampes instead of pvp as a whole. Dont blame pvp for L2 being a joke of a game that was designed to enticed adena farmers. A game based around items instead of a player is pathetic.
Say what you want about UO, the proof was there. People loved it until your mindset took over and kill it. Uo died when the split the population apart. Richard Garriot had some sense and of course EA got rrid of him and look what happened.
Your making nothing but excuses. If you think, your pretty safe just like RL. If you dont think, then you get killed. Dont hold the pvp community responsible for the stupidity of the players.
Lastly, your a f'ing moron to play a game where you have to pay 1200 bucks for a virtual item. UO ad a successful pvp system becuase they based skill on a character instead of covering up pooor design with shiny expensive items.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Xira read my privious post and see if your theory on PK´ers add up to the above statement you made.
Cheers
No problem... thanks for clearing it up...
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I am narrowing this down to the strongest part of your rebuttle, since the rest of it was terrible nonsense mixed with the word "sadist" six thousand times.
Your interpretation of what Xira said is all wrong. Let me break it down using your "equal sign" method.
Idiot in Xira's eyes = Someone who believes in something and hates other people's belief because they thing they are right no matter what.
Smart person in Xira's eyes = Someone who believes in something, yet has the mental capacity to look at someone else's view point and accept it, even if they do not embrace it.
So now that your "strongest" retort was shot down, your entire post is worthless. Might as well delete it.
Xira is right, Finwe, you are almost as bad a debator as Bush is.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
its sad that theres is merits to this discussion, but in even some of the intelligent points brought it still comes down to moronic flaming contests
I give this thread a D-
I'm just going to jump on the bandwagon here for a second.
In my view Open PVP is not an option, it's a necessity. I CAN'T play a game without it. My need for it has nothing to do with the desire to kill other players, and everything to do with freedom.
I have always been intrigued by the possibility of an online world filled with real people, magic, and fantastic creatures etc. I imagine books like Lord of the rings, where epic tales unfold, and then I imagine the possibilities, the stories I can create with hundreds of other people in this fantasy world.
Then I get into the game and find that the devs have already decided what side I'm on, who my enemies are, and created random spawning, generic creatures for me to kill to gain 'levels'. All of a sudden my dreams of epic tales are shattered and I'm left 'spawn camping' to make myself 'uber'.
I want real danger, when I am weak I expect to be in constant danger and need the protection of those around me. I want to see people steal, pillage, kill and basically create conflict. I want to be a warrior who actually defends his homeland from a real threat. I don't want to do battle with randomly spawning creatures that have no identity. I would only kill them if I needed something from them, like wolfs skin to make a cloak. I want to do battle with a real enemy, another human player who's goal is to destroy me and everything I stand for. My homeland should be safe not because the devs have designed it as such, but because we, the players will risk our lives to defend it.
For the truly creative all the devs need to do is make anything possible. Then stories will unfold all on their own. Epic struggles will be unleashed and the devs can sit back and watch their masterpiece unfold in ways they never imagined.
It's hard for me to put into words some of the feelings I have for open PVP, but know this, my opinion on this will never change.
-Jumps off the bandwagon and runs away
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Well...If a game thats subscribers outnumbered probably the 5 biggest MMORPG's in the west is a failure (Lineage 1)
Then well...I'm afraid nothing will ever be a success in your eyes. Numbers, or more specifically, money; speak louder then words. And in this scenario, your words are as a squeak of a mouse, and NCsofts reaping of rewards from the lineage games is as the 50 megaton nuclear bomb set off in siberia.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
This has been brought up many times before. Ready for the overused reply?
1. Lineage has NEVER ever been able to become a success in Europe and America? Why is that?
2. Lineage is not a worldwide success. It is a worldwide flop and the numbers more than prove it.
80% of ALL players in Lineage are from one little country on the planet - Korea. Why is this? Korea leads the world in internet access for the masses. Korea has what are called (when translated into English) P.C. BANGS. Blocks and blocks of buildings with hundreds to thousands of computers, many open 24 hours a day. Many with hundreds of games already pre-loaded. Many have game cracks also. Players do not have to even buy the games in order to play them. Including MMORPGs. They just have to buy a gamecard/pay the monthly MMORPG subscription.
This is another reason why every single year, Korea is chosen to be the location for the FINALS for the World Cybor Games. In which the best gamers from EVERY country in the world play.
3. Lineage tried not once, but two times, to jump into the European market and American market. Aka the ENGLISH market. And it failed miserably! The other 20% of "worldwide" players are Asians in other nearby Asian countries, and Asians who travel to other countries in Europe and America. Any American who plays Lineage will see that the graphics SUCK compared to EQ, DAoC, etc.. which are actually popular worldwide - except in Korea and Asia
. They are like the old EQ graphics. Or inbetween UO and EQ graphics.
4. Korean (and to some extent Asian) culture. It is very ...... different when it comes to how gamers are viewed. And how they act. Search the internet for the stories of Koreans who litterally DIE at the PC Bangs from playing Lineage, and other games, non-stop without eating, sleeping, etc...
There is an extreemly well known case of a Lineage player getting killed by other Lineage players. Can you say... fanatics? Repeat after me... different culture!
5. Next, the Korean goverment, and goverments of other Asian countries, are extreemly anti-American. Ask any American soldier who has been stationed in Korea how Americans are treated. Many US soldiers are told not to go off base alone. If an American goes into a Korean store, they will refuse to serve him! This even happens in AMERICA too!
New Jersey in the 1990's was the scene of one of the worse Anti-Korean (and Anti-Asian) riots in American history. ((The Amercian concentration camps located in America during and after WWII are still the worse case of anti-Asian brutality in American history.)) "Old-Stock" Americans were pissed at how the towns of Fort Lee, and Leonia, NJ, were becoming dominated by Koreans. How they were being treated in their own country by Koreans and Asians .... in America... their own country. Only 1 major newspaper had the guts to cover it - the Bergen Record (headquartered in Hackensack, NJ).
Those anti-Korean riots (and anti-Asian) were the reason SONY after taking over Lowes Theaters, changed the name back to Lowes from SONY. "Go the F--- back home G--ks!", "You slant-eyed m-----kers!", you have noooo idea how violent and brutal those anti-Asian riots were. "Old Stock" Americans protested and marched in the streets, beating up Koreans while the cops stood by and watched. They also protested at the biggest movie Theater east of the Mississippi River, located in Ridgefield Park, NJ. I found it halarious seeing buisnesswomen in their buisness suits yelling anti-Korean and anti-Asian slurs while protesting. (2 new theaters in NYC recently opened and are now the biggest. On 8th Ave and 42nd street.)
This spills into how American game companies are NOT given equal access to the Korean (and Asian) game market. Need another example?
In Japan, American Rice is made extreemly difficult to sell, by the Japanese goverment. Does this REALLY mean the Japanese rice farmers are super successful? I mean, they keep making record sales! Japanese rice farmers are "successful" because they exist in a near-VACUME.
Games like EQ, DAoC, UO, etc... are not given easy access to the Korean Market, and Asian market, while Lineage is operating ins a near-VACUME.
6. American game companies (and to a lesser extent Eurpean game companies) are not seriously targeted to the Asian market. They act as if the Asian market does not exist. This further allows any game that first targets the Asian market to easily succeed - expecially if it is Korean and/or Asian made. (((It was very intresting Anarchy Online (based out of Norway) on purpose allowed players to choose a very obviously Asian looking character face. Same with SWG. It's the first thing one of my friends jokingly looks for first whenever he creates a character heheh. His way of seeing how much thought went into a game.)))
----------------------
recap:
Is Lineage a successful MMORPG? Yes. Even if the Korean goverment allowed easy access to the Korean market for American and European games, even if American and European game companies decided to target the Korean (and Asian) market, I strongly believe Lineage would still be able to have 100,000 accounts.
Is Lineage a successful worldwide MMORPG? Absolutly no. Because history proved this when Lineage flopped 2 times trying to expand into the European and American markets. (aka English market.)
Lineage IS a successful Korean PvP/FFA PvP MMORPG. Lineage is NOT a worldwide successful mmorpg, or PvP MMPROG, or FFA PvP MMORPG. Heck, if I could get the 50+ million people in just my tiny state of NJ - but nowhere else - to play a MMORPG made by me... would that mean I have the most successful MMORPG in the world? Ahhh... but only people in NJ are playing it heheh LOL!
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
*sigh* should I list the reasons why FFA PvP is a joke - even to PvP lovers?
Go play Runescape, and go as far as you can deep into the wilderness LOL! In FFA PvP it does not matter how high level you are, what uber gear you have, you will get ganged up on and killed off no matter what. No matter how many players you kill. No matter how many monsters you kill. All a low level player has to do is wait for your life to go down from battlling 10 players and/or 10 monsters, step in and your dead. Or even better, shoot 1 arrow, or spell, at you from range attack.
In FFA PvP players are forced to stop playing. They get chain-killed. It is the old "Miner vs warriior" syndrome. If I level my character up to be 100% warrior/fighter and you level your character up to be 100% miner/crafter it does not matter how careful you play, I will automatically be able to kill you almost all the time. They cannot go anywhere, do anyting - except play some other game.
Next, it is very obvious you have never played any consentual PvP game to high level. AO is still free to download. So is EvE online. Give them a try.
Furthermore, the numbers, the market, has PROVEN consentual PvP games are not a joke - they ARE indeed successful - SWG, AO, EvE Online, and even DAoC (though it could use improvements like finding a way for players to defend what they own while offline.) I dare you to sign up for SWG, join Scylla server, declare yourself as Imperial or Rebel, and see how long you live! You will get smacked down soo hard you will run screaming back to these forums crying tears. LOL! Try hiding... there is no place safe.
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Asia is a very different culture, yes, especially korea. Hence why games like Lineage do so well there, and I think easy allowance to Western games would not change the popularity of games like Lineage for the whole fact that alot of asian games would not change the popularity of games like EQ. Different cultures, different people.
Worldwide success I think still depends on numbers, not how many countries you reach. If you made an MMORPG and got everyone to subscribe to it in NJ, and having 50 million I believe you said, subscribers.
Yes...I think it would be considered a worldwide success.
Although I suppose it can be a relative term. You think it means how many peoples, nations, subscribers worldwide. I think it means how many subscribers total. Personally I think its a competition of who can make the most cash. And you know...What would companies rather do, stay here, make PvE games, and if they're lucky rake in 100K subscribers. Or go to asia, make some hardcore PvP games and rake in at least 500K subscribers?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
There IS a market for PvP. But the MMORPG market has shown that the majority of MMORPG players lean more towards PvE/PvM than PvP. There are 3 groups of MMORPG gamers:
1 - PvE/PvM loving players.
2 - Dabblers. Players who like... guess what? BOTH PvE ..AND... PvP.
3 - PvP loving players.
From a game company's perspective, they will and must go after where the MOST money is at. And that is PvE/PvM leaning games. Games like AO, SWG, EvE Online, and others that have consentual PvP are the best of all since they do not try leaning towards 1 type of player. But instead they give more CHOICES to players on how to play = better chance for the game to make even more money. It also allows them to target the very often overlooked Dabbler market.
If anyone here desperatly wants a pure FFA PvP game, then stop talking smack and do what Lord British did (the most successful computer game maker in history!). MAKE YOUR OWN GAME! Go to school, study computer software engineering, and do it! Pull a Rob Zombie!
(Rob Zombie was sick of the pop-metal/pop-rock aka garbage-rock being cloned and produced. So he walked the walk and made his own band, his own music, his own albume.)
(90% of ALL rap artists were ignored by MTV and the radio. They went out and made their own music, their own songs, did everyting. Later on Radio and MTV was forced to recignize them and their success. Anyone here still remember the 1986 MTV VMAs? When Run-DMC was nominated for just about ever catagory? LOL! Or Ice Cube and how his albume became the ONLY albume ever in history to debut and stay at #1 without recieving ANY radio airplay!)
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
"Sorry, thats just wrong.
UO was open pvp and it was a great success (it only went down after EA took over and starting to move away from open pvp).
Incorrect. The two guys who MADE UO have stated UO's FFA PvP was a F-A-I-L-U-R-E. Lord British and Designer Dragon. Designer Dragon is more recently knows nas... Holocron... aka the one and only Raph Koster. Guess what hit game he has recently designed, which now has between 200,000 to 300,000 accounts?"
Yeah, holocron I know of him....I spent a few months waiting for a game called SWG. If one of the great minds behind the design of SWG says anything it must be true.....wake up SWG blows. Whos to blame for that? Hes a designer, we waited with baited breathe for his updates and the further we went, the less sense they made.
Richar Garriot, I love him for what he started, but I think hes gone mad. Look at his game now, Tabula Rasa. Its great, bring mmorpgs closer to a diable 2 level rather than a UO2 level. What do you know, from the same company that brings us that gem L2. I honor who he was, but his repsect died with old UO.
Yeah...lets make a mmorpg and lets make people be able to do stuff without atually intereacting with other people(instanced adventuring. No, lets take it one even further, lets get rid of travel completely so we can kill immersion anymore. Wait, no I got a better one! Lets also add in PvP thats completley meaningless and give no background or incentive to it.
Ohh, and to correct another mistake. SWG is not any any way to what UO2 was. For your information UO2 was called Origin, not this new crap.
BTW - I work at a IFE company in Orange County, ca. In flight entertainment. I went to E3, I played tabula rasa. Im not bragging or anything, just clarifying that my views of Garrriots new game comes from things I was told in person and from my hands on playtime, not assumptions form the meager amount of info on websites. Im aware that attacking the demi-god of mmorpg's could bring alot of responses.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EvE Online are the only 3 MMORPGs that attacked this problem. The revolutionary AO did it first. SWG took many ideas from AO, and built on them. In AO a level 100 player would get his butt kicked instantly if he tried attacking 100 players who are far lower level than him. In SWG a veteran player who has played for 1 year would instantly die if he tried attacking 100 players who are 2 days old LOL! (I am not tallking about a Jedi. That's another issue.)
EvE Online in its current state is better than it used to be. Many major bugs have been ironed out. A veteran player can still get hurt by a newer player - especially by a newer player who actually studied the game. A veteran player definatly cannot take on 100 new players at the same time. A veteran player IMHO could take on roughly 8 newer players at the same time. He would still get hurt though, and face getting killed.
In AO a high level player at most can take on at most 3 much lower level players. And that is if he uses skill and stratagy, and the much lower level players do not know how to play as well as him. Even then he STILL faces the chance of getting killed. He WILL get hurt.
In SWG, a veteran player could take on roughly at most 3 much newer players. And that is if the newer players know how to play the game. In SWG ALL players can get killed by any player. It is closer to real life -
A 10year veteran Navy Seal can still get killed by a 12yr old with a gun. Unlikely, but possible. He is not automatically immortal. (like in EQ if a level 55 fights a level 15 player LOL! Or even worse in DAoC heheh.)
BTW, SWG is the only MMORPG which has absolutly no levels.
It is not a perfect game, but at least they tried, and experimented.
*EDIT*
EvE Online also has no levels at all.
Congratulations on having a good job that you like!
I do not know why you felt the need to tell everyone where you work, and what kind of work you do, since no one asked. But hey, congrats!
Next, you did not play the released version of TR. It takes 1 year from release for a MMORPG to mature. Any comments anyone has on any MMORPG are best reserved for when the game is 1 year old. Also you played the alpha/beta. NO MMORPG in history remains the same as it was in alpha/beta.
But it is nice you are a fellow Lord British fan.
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Well, I must say im suprised you missed the points so often, but if I have to spell it out here goes:
" -> Opie's response:
Yeah, holocron I know of him....I spent a few months waiting for a game called SWG.
I spent more than 3 years. And? So? "
Yeah, you see you have to read the whole paragraph, if you pick out a single sentence no shit i doesnt make sense.
"If one of the great minds behind the design of SWG says anything it must be true.....wake up SWG blows. Whos to blame for that? Hes a designer, we waited with baited breathe for his updates and the further we went, the less sense they made.
You completly missed the point. This is not about SWG. This is about UO - the supposvily prime example of successful FFA PvP. Designer Dragon aka Raph Koster aka before he was known as Holocron, in his days AT UO, years before SWG released....... he himself stated FFA PvP was KILLING UO."
Your right, its not about SWG, its about the man behind it which YOU brought up as some heroic genius. I am pointing out that your personal heros latest creation is a complete piece of shit. So yes, his work does have a impact on his opinions. Hed have a bit more leverage if SWG (his baby) wasnt a joke. See, I thought you would have picked up on that....
" BTW, I am awake... wide awake and waiting for you to show proof SWG does not have over 200,000 subscribers?
Have you visited Raphs personal website and read the DETAILED info and story he listed about UO and its history? You have a lot of homework to do. "
Your point is? Who cares how many subscribers its got. Why do some poor souls always think that numbers equal quality? EQ has alot of subscribers also...doesnt mean I or other people think its worth a damn. Still awake, I hope so since this is such a big event. Next?
"Ohh, and to correct another mistake. SWG is not any any way to what UO2 was. For your information UO2 was called Origin, not this new crap.
Origin no longer exists. Also the only person who could truly make UO2 is the person who worked on UO. The same person responsible for everything you liked about UO. And that person went on to work on, lead, and make SWG, using ALL his ideas he had planned for UO2. SWG is unofficially UO2. "
Now its you not doing your homework mr UO professor, the released info on ORIGIN was not like SWG. Second, I live in the now, not the past. Just cause the original pre EA UO was great doesnt mean he didnt fuk up SWG with his twisted ideas. The more is goes on, you sound like a SWG fanboi.
" Congratulations on having a good job that you like! I do not know why you felt the need to tell everyone where you work, and what kind of work you do, since no one asked. But hey, congrats!"
Now I am convinced you are dense. I clearly stated why I included the thing about E3. In case you dont know much about it, you have to be in the entertainment industry to get in. Alot of people know this. I was pre empting the comments about "how do you know, not just anybody can get in" "You have to be in the industry", blah blah. Afterall, I couldnt very well play TR unless I got in and no one would believe that unless I stated how. Its called thinking 2 steps ahead, try it sometime.
TR is a way out, but the stated design direction and goals dont change. The implementation details may change, but the core direction doesnt. I promise you instant transportation will be there. I promise you instanced adventuring will be there. These are a core piece to their design idea so, no beta wont change this.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
______________________________________________
Originally written by xplororor
_______________________________________________
This has been brought up many times before. Ready for the overused reply?
1. Lineage has NEVER ever been able to become a success in Europe and America? Why is that?
2. Lineage is not a worldwide success. It is a worldwide flop and the numbers more than prove it.
80% of ALL players in Lineage are from one little country on the planet - Korea. Why is this? Korea leads the world in internet access for the masses. Korea has what are called (when translated into English) P.C. BANGS. Blocks and blocks of buildings with hundreds to thousands of computers, many open 24 hours a day. Many with hundreds of games already pre-loaded. Many have game cracks also. Players do not have to even buy the games in order to play them. Including MMORPGs. They just have to buy a gamecard/pay the monthly MMORPG subscription.
This is another reason why every single year, Korea is chosen to be the location for the FINALS for the World Cybor Games. In which the best gamers from EVERY country in the world play.
3. Lineage tried not once, but two times, to jump into the European market and American market. Aka the ENGLISH market. And it failed miserably! The other 20% of "worldwide" players are Asians in other nearby Asian countries, and Asians who travel to other countries in Europe and America. Any American who plays Lineage will see that the graphics SUCK compared to EQ, DAoC, etc.. which are actually popular worldwide - except in Korea and Asia
. They are like the old EQ graphics. Or inbetween UO and EQ graphics.
4. Korean (and to some extent Asian) culture. It is very ...... different when it comes to how gamers are viewed. And how they act. Search the internet for the stories of Koreans who litterally DIE at the PC Bangs from playing Lineage, and other games, non-stop without eating, sleeping, etc...
There is an extreemly well known case of a Lineage player getting killed by other Lineage players. Can you say... fanatics? Repeat after me... different culture!
5. Next, the Korean goverment, and goverments of other Asian countries, are extreemly anti-American. Ask any American soldier who has been stationed in Korea how Americans are treated. Many US soldiers are told not to go off base alone. If an American goes into a Korean store, they will refuse to serve him! This even happens in AMERICA too!
New Jersey in the 1990's was the scene of one of the worse Anti-Korean (and Anti-Asian) riots in American history. ((The Amercian concentration camps located in America during and after WWII are still the worse case of anti-Asian brutality in American history.)) "Old-Stock" Americans were pissed at how the towns of Fort Lee, and Leonia, NJ, were becoming dominated by Koreans. How they were being treated in their own country by Koreans and Asians .... in America... their own country. Only 1 major newspaper had the guts to cover it - the Bergen Record (headquartered in Hackensack, NJ).
Those anti-Korean riots (and anti-Asian) were the reason SONY after taking over Lowes Theaters, changed the name back to Lowes from SONY. "Go the F--- back home G--ks!", "You slant-eyed m-----kers!", you have noooo idea how violent and brutal those anti-Asian riots were. "Old Stock" Americans protested and marched in the streets, beating up Koreans while the cops stood by and watched. They also protested at the biggest movie Theater east of the Mississippi River, located in Ridgefield Park, NJ. I found it halarious seeing buisnesswomen in their buisness suits yelling anti-Korean and anti-Asian slurs while protesting. (2 new theaters in NYC recently opened and are now the biggest. On 8th Ave and 42nd street.)
This spills into how American game companies are NOT given equal access to the Korean (and Asian) game market. Need another example?
In Japan, American Rice is made extreemly difficult to sell, by the Japanese goverment. Does this REALLY mean the Japanese rice farmers are super successful? I mean, they keep making record sales! Japanese rice farmers are "successful" because they exist in a near-VACUME.
Games like EQ, DAoC, UO, etc... are not given easy access to the Korean Market, and Asian market, while Lineage is operating ins a near-VACUME.
6. American game companies (and to a lesser extent Eurpean game companies) are not seriously targeted to the Asian market. They act as if the Asian market does not exist. This further allows any game that first targets the Asian market to easily succeed - expecially if it is Korean and/or Asian made. (((It was very intresting Anarchy Online (based out of Norway) on purpose allowed players to choose a very obviously Asian looking character face. Same with SWG. It's the first thing one of my friends jokingly looks for first whenever he creates a character heheh. His way of seeing how much thought went into a game.)))
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recap:
Is Lineage a successful MMORPG? Yes. Even if the Korean goverment allowed easy access to the Korean market for American and European games, even if American and European game companies decided to target the Korean (and Asian) market, I strongly believe Lineage would still be able to have 100,000 accounts.
Is Lineage a successful worldwide MMORPG? Absolutly no. Because history proved this when Lineage flopped 2 times trying to expand into the European and American markets. (aka English market.)
Lineage IS a successful Korean PvP/FFA PvP MMORPG. Lineage is NOT a worldwide successful mmorpg, or PvP MMPROG, or FFA PvP MMORPG. Heck, if I could get the 50+ million people in just my tiny state of NJ - but nowhere else - to play a MMORPG made by me... would that mean I have the most successful MMORPG in the world? Ahhh... but only people in NJ are playing it heheh LOL!
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Man You are so wrong in many front !!!!.
Let me tell you something.
It is unreasonable to claim that S. Korean government and the people are anti American like it's been sold in CNN or in TIMES.
However, it is reasonable to believe that there are people sympathizing with starving North Korean people but surely not with the N. Korean leadership. I'm very interested in this kind of subject and I know that much.
Current S. Korean administration is against US's North-Korean policy and not the US - this distinction has to be made very clear - They are staunch ally after all - They fought together for communist invasion. They both have strong economic tie and they have common policy in many other areas except N.Korean policy.
S.Korean opposes US's aggressive - pre-emptive war policy - agaisnt N. Korea.
What US is essentially saying by labeling N. Korea an Axis-of-Evil - making the whole North-Korean-Chinese block a collective patsy - is that US is willing to risk war for its own geopolitical self-interest and don't give a shiiit if N. Korea annihilates S. Korea or Japan.
So think about it will S. Koreans and Japanese gonna say "hey Americans we love you. Come to my country and F***ck N. Korea?" Of course not. Both countries risks annihilation.
The kind of Anti-Americans sentiment you are speaking of is stronger in Arab, Europe or Canada. The whole world has anti-american, anti-hegemonism sentiment. S.Korea and Japan is one of US's last remaining ally.
About the New-Jersey thing I don't know where that came from but I think the story is largely taken out of context.
Now about Japanese banning US product.
US - Bush administration - banned Canadian cheap drug because it put many US drug companies in disadvantage over their canadian competitors. They did this at the risk of American public health.
So what's the reason behind US banning Canadian drug? US government only cares about 1% corporate elites, top earning margin of population, clear contrast from what it used to be during 1845-1913 before the privitization of American central financial Trust, 1950s and 1960s before Iran Contra.
Just to let you know, every country is guilty when it comes to self-interest protectionism.
While Russians & Chineses are busy making Pirate copy out of US made softwares, Japanese are trying to sell more units of Game Cube, PSP, PS2 and block xbox.
Then S. Korea comes, completely wiring the whole nation in lightning speed and making the nation heaven for online gamers. US started to make a case out of it and trying its own version.
But you have to know Koreans blocking American products is just a bull-shit!
They are just guilty of liking so much of Blizzards products and snubbing all other games, throwing them in the water. That I call protectionism.
EQ2, Horizon, AC2, DAoC are no name in that country. Lineage, WoW, bazillion other popular Korean MMORPGs are.
Protectionism fed by Nationalism doesn't always dictate consumerism in that country as far as I know unlike it is in US.
And btw, Lineage, Lineage 2 is unprecedented international success, L2 has 32 servers in China, 30 in Korea, something like 19 in Taiwan, 8 in Japan and other part of Asia. I don't know what else you should call international.
You best believe protectionism along with nationalism does indeed dictate what the consumers in that country have readily available to them. If a PC Bang does not have EQ, DAoC, UO, AC, but has Lineage, guess what game they will play? It is called a VACUME market.
JD Rockerfeller had it going for him. It made him more powerful than the US President and is the reason the anti-monopoly laws were made. Entire towns were owned by companies. Workers were forced to buy company items from company stores.
lotta reading and yellow text hurts my head
What I think works well is what the PvP servers in WoW will have. If you want to venture into the good zones you are going to have to risk being attack. It's not that you necessarily want to get attacked, but you aren't afraid enough to turtle up in safer zones. Also, if they can work out the honor system (which is a serious joke atm) then a level 30 wouldn't have to be concerned w/ being slaughtered by a level 50.
Games that only offer arena-style consentual PvP are seriously just big chat rooms. When I played AO (summer '03 before Shadowlands trashed everything but long enough after Notum Wars for there to be no purposeful PvP - only arena-style) I had a good time. But really all it was was socializing and monotony: chatting while camping, doing team missions runs, and making friends through trading and sharing. Had I stayed with the game longer I have no doubt that once the PvE ran dry I would have probably stopped playing (why pay 12$ a month just to chat and be friendly? I can do that for free).
Shadowbane's pvp needed a little bit of treaking back in the day. I haven't played that game since release so I cannot attest to how the system works these days. Shadowbane should have simply made all >level 35 players only attackable by other >level 35 players.
As to Shadowbane's downfall. It had a solid 1200 pep at primetime on every server a few months after release and these people were pretty immune to the ills of being griefed. Most had high level toons already and guilds that could safetly powerlevel your alts in an instant. Shadowbane's sheer amount of bugs and lag spikes is what destroyed it.
You CAN handle the truth...it's just really slippery.
Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and EvE Online are the only 3 MMORPGs that attacked this problem. The revolutionary AO did it first. SWG took many ideas from AO, and built on them. In AO a level 100 player would get his butt kicked instantly if he tried attacking 100 players who are far lower level than him. In SWG a veteran player who has played for 1 year would instantly die if he tried attacking 100 players who are 2 days old LOL! (I am not tallking about a Jedi. That's another issue.)
EvE Online in its current state is better than it used to be. Many major bugs have been ironed out. A veteran player can still get hurt by a newer player - especially by a newer player who actually studied the game. A veteran player definatly cannot take on 100 new players at the same time. A veteran player IMHO could take on roughly 8 newer players at the same time. He would still get hurt though, and face getting killed.
In AO a high level player at most can take on at most 3 much lower level players. And that is if he uses skill and stratagy, and the much lower level players do not know how to play as well as him. Even then he STILL faces the chance of getting killed. He WILL get hurt.
In SWG, a veteran player could take on roughly at most 3 much newer players. And that is if the newer players know how to play the game. In SWG ALL players can get killed by any player. It is closer to real life -
A 10year veteran Navy Seal can still get killed by a 12yr old with a gun. Unlikely, but possible. He is not automatically immortal. (like in EQ if a level 55 fights a level 15 player LOL! Or even worse in DAoC heheh.)
BTW, SWG is the only MMORPG which has absolutly no levels.
It is not a perfect game, but at least they tried, and experimented.
*EDIT*
EvE Online also has no levels at all.
Well said that man!
A lot of you people seem to think the argument here if for less pvp but having gone from an Open pvp system to a well made PVP system in AO ( ive also played EvE online, cant speak for SWG tho).
Open pvp is all well and good, it opens the game up to a great deal of assholes and greifing, but what most of them acctaully lack is PVP content (as I keep saying). AO/EVE online or any games that follow this route are games for TRUE pvpers people who really enjoy pvping. The "twinking" system in AO is genius, it means that pvp becomes faar less lvl based and more along the lines of Game knowladge, general intelligence and stratergy. Games where the level grind means everything to PVP are a joke in my opinion.