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Open PVP.. gayness
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to the LP, AO pvp is so broken its not funny
Why is it that so many of you are talking about high lvls pking newbs? First off, i dont think that item loot is a viable way to go unless you have a game that players can make all items in the game so that they will be more easily replaceable...
secondly, OPEN pvp, aka being able to attack someone 40 lvls lower, is gay.... gay gay gay. its like group rape. lvl restrictions are the only way to go, period.
third, most ppl that PK that i knew, when they were PKing didnt do it for items, coin, or to gank newbs. they did it for bragging rights, and to show people their skill with their char or their patience to kill that higher lvl guy that wiped the floor with them before.
ok, i think i've put in about 4 or 5 cents on this thread now....
Finwe, don't go look up a debate page, pull "Attack ad hominum" off it and use it over and over again. Try to UNDERSTAND what that phrase means.
Here is a real attack ad-hominum(sp).
Finwe, you are a worthless ganking PKer. People like you can never be right because they can never see the other side of any argument. No griefing ass-hat like you can ever possibly debate worth crap, your arguments are striaght out of a 3rd grade textbook. You expound the same points over and over again as a 12 year old would hopeing to eventually get their way. No ganking PKer has anything worth saying in a debate over PvP because they AREN'T PvPers, they are gankers. Unless you stop being a ganker(fat chance) and start being a real pvper you'll never have anything useful to contrubite. A ganker only EVER argues from that one point of view because it's all they can understand, and thus is not worthy of consideration. What does a Griefer know about PVP? Go back to your hole.
That was an attack-ad-hominum. I said that because you are a particular type of person your arguments are worthless, and that because you are like that type of person we should not consider your arguments.
There is a very fine line between degenerigateing your arguments because you are a griefer and CALLING YOU A GRIEFER then counterpointing all your arguments.(Or an idiot or whatever) If I had done the first in my origonal posts it would have been Attack-ad-homimun(sp), I did not. I called you an idiot then logically rebutted your points, I did not imply that because you were an idiot your points were worthless and use you being an idiot AS my argument.
LEARN Finwe or you'll never get any better at this.
[b][quote]
Your interpretation of what Xira said is all wrong. Let me break it down using your "equal sign" method.
Idiot in Xira's eyes = Someone who believes in something and hates other people's belief because they thing they are right no matter what.
Smart person in Xira's eyes = Someone who believes in something, yet has the mental capacity to look at someone else's view point and accept it, even if they do not embrace it.
Well...Firstly, I'm glad I'm an idiot in Xira's eyes then. Because shucks, I just don't think flip-flopping is very becoming.
[/b][/quote]
Changeing one's opinion or thought when it has been shown to be false is not flip-flopping. If you said the earth was round, then I took you up into space, would you still argue that the earth was round?
I would argue that EVE is not really consentual PvP. ( I would have played it but when it launched it was buggy and exploited so I passed after playing BETA...After that it's impossible to ever compete with someone who joined day-1 due to the leveling system)
In EVE you MUST go out into the PK zones or you'll be a newbie forever. Yes you CAN stay in town forever and never get PKed....But you won't ever get anywhere. Same thing as Sullon Zek in EQ...Sure you can play at level 5 forever and never level up, but is that really playing?
Ohhhh don't get me started on Starport GE:) I got a gold medel for comeing in first in like my 3rd game. How did I do it? I ganked everyone, took over every colony, ectera.
Starport is HEAVILY biased towards PKers, it has virtually no place at all for any other playstyle....Colony defense is a joke versus a decent player, the crux of the problem. Your best bet is to build your colony out in BFE and pray nobody scans that system...Cause if they do it's gone.
SGE is also easily hackable....I managed to make myself invincible with infinite energy and nukes. Talk about your insta-death. In under 2 hours.
Other balance problems of course->The 'merchant' ships are just fodder for one of the combat ships. You can either be a good trader and make money the nice way and eventually get ganked easily by someone in a combat ship...Or be in a combat ship and easily gank other players and take all their money.
One must also take into account how much those players pay for those accounts relative to the amount they would pay in this market, and how much you have to pay the programmers.
Asian programmers are cheap. Asian gamers pay about half what we do(through an entirly diffrent subscription plan) per month for their games.
It would be very hard for a foergin game to be successful in an Asian market, what with higher costs for the program, unfamiliarity with the language/culture, and less money per subscriber.
Xira can we agree that not all PK´ers are disfunctional human beings that just live to cause grief to other people ?
I enjoy the aspect of being a PK or being hunted by a PK. It simply adds that unpredictable element of excitement to a game. And no i do not enjoy causing anyone harm in any way.
Maybe you take the games a bit to personal, might even be a substitute for something else your missing in real life. Just suggesting because i have no idea, so dont go flying of the handle please
Ganking people in a newbie zone do say a lot about the people doing the ganking i agree with you on that.
PvP is the future of MMORPGS unless someone invents an AI that really can challenge the human mind in flexible thinking.
PK´ing is the price of free will in a mmorpg and yes we all become victim of other ppl idea of executing that freewill. But is it worth it to nerf the framework into limiting the freewill of everyone ?
I mention this because i sense a red line in your hatred toward the pk ( maybe colored by the ganker / griefer aspect )
But im guessing the deffinition of a griefer is someone having an opposite idea of what you want.
Example. I want your gold thus i kill you and take your gold. you come back with more gold, i kill you again and yes i take your gold. The motive is getting wealthy on the account of your death ( PK = evil person in game )
Cheers
Some thought on the Origonal UO PvP system:
After some thinking I came to some startleing conclusions about 'open pvp'. It's impossible to please both sides of the coin because their desires are both opposed and mutually exclusive.
I propose that the origonal UO is so worshipped by PKs and PVPers because it gave them EXACTLY what they wanted.
PKs, what do they want? They want to live a fantasy just like the rest of us in a game. They want a world where their actions make them feared and respected with real conquences for their actions...If they are caught...But where also the average PK can always be "just one step ahead" of the cops.
UO furfilled this fantasy desire. There were conquences and anti-pvps and cops, but the tools they had to work with ensured that they could never quite catch the bad guys. They could never quite stop them. The robbers were always just one step ahead of the cops with certain death if they slipped....But such that your average gamer could just manage to avoid slipping.
This let them live out their 'bad guy' fantasies in an online world.
The non-pvpers could never quite catch those PKs....The game wasn't written to allow it. Sure they could catch the bad ones and the newbs, but they could never really make an impact....The codeing was such that the bad guys always got away by the skin of their teeth. Ideal for the bad guys of course, but not something the 'good guys' wanted.
This is where the mutually exclusive desires come in. The care-bears wanted a world where they could always juuuust barely catch the bad guys and punish them, the bad guys wanted a world where they could juuuuust barely get away every time. It is obviously impossible to satisfy both desires for the majority of gamers in a world where both sides are played by players.
You CAN'T "do PVP right!" because it's IMPOSSIBLE. You simply can't satisfy two mutually exclusive desires at the same time in the same place. UO choose the most proftiable path for them-Catering to the non PKs.
Im entertained to see this thread still alive.
One thing of note. Open pvp cuts down on alot of grief and shit talking. Go talk shit in SWG, nobody can do anything to you.
Take a game like old UO...oh boy, I cant count how many punk kids I took a count for in game.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
I would argue that EVE is not really consentual PvP. ( I would have played it but when it launched it was buggy and exploited so I passed after playing BETA...After that it's impossible to ever compete with someone who joined day-1 due to the leveling system)
In EVE you MUST go out into the PK zones or you'll be a newbie forever. Yes you CAN stay in town forever and never get PKed....But you won't ever get anywhere. Same thing as Sullon Zek in EQ...Sure you can play at level 5 forever and never level up, but is that really playing?
----------------------------------
a) a new player CAN compete with a veteran, as long as they know how to do combat, and have the basic skills to fly ships. Obviously a two day old char aint gona cut it, but after a month or two there is no reason they cant kill someone who been in game for a year and and a half.
b) many people have played eve since release and hardly gone into "PK Zones" you can play EvE in a myriad of ways and if NPC hunting, PVP and Mining are not your bag then "PK Zones" hold nothing for you. Many people do all their gaming in non "PK Zones", and yes they get somewhere. IE. Industrialists, Researchers, Traders, Agent Runners etc..
c) there are no levels in Eve. Although there is a skill progression system (real time training).
just thought id point out a few errors in your post so that people that maybe know little about EvE would not get the wrong impression.
[quote]Originally posted by Zipeh
[b]
Originally posted by Xira
----------------------------------a) a new player CAN compete with a veteran, as long as they know how to do combat, and have the basic skills to fly ships. Obviously a two day old char aint gona cut it, but after a month or two there is no reason they cant kill someone who been in game for a year and and a half.
[/quote]
The question here would be "Would it be a fair fight?" The answer is clearly no.
Taking the average case(the only way balance can be achived) a player who has played longer will beat an equally skilled player who is only say 2 months old.
While yes, an Uber player can beat a vet who isn't as good that is relying on your enemy to suck to achive balance...Never a good idea.
There ARE levels in EVE, they just go by a diffrent name. In a game where there is a diffrence between power levels not reliant on player skill, there are levels.
They may not CALL them levels, and there may be a whole dam lot of them(so that it seems contuinous), but the levels do exist.
Amazing how you managed to break down my post and answer all of it, yet not answer it at the same time. I also see that you, yet again, failed to see that you are not seeing Xira's point.
One more thing, I find it amusing how you immediately jump to calling someone immature when you can't find anything else to say.
I couldent tell if this thread got turned into a politic discussion.
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
It's interesting to read the opinions on this subject. It always has been. No matter if the game is open PvP or PvP-optional, there's always going to be someone there looking to get others fired up. Whether it's the guy that sits back and only attacks already wounded players or the guy that only attacks players that are much lower in skill. Whether it's the guy that steals a camp that you've had for hours waiting for a rare drop or the guy leeches xp from your kills. Always going to be jerks. In every game.
My choice is to play 2 different games. One PvP oriented and one PvE oriented. That way, all I have to decide is which type of idiot I can tolerate tonight.
326
three2six
http://www.soundcloud.com/three2six
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
And Finwe was telling me to fix my grammar...
If you are talking about the original UO - then your statement is not true:
If a PKer, or PvPer, or any player in a FFA PvP game has enough free time, has played long enough, he can talk smack as much, and as long as he wants. Because he is untouchable by 98% of everyone else on his server. You seriously NEED to go read up on the essays at Raph Koster's personal website. Then come back in 2 weeks when you are done reading, and letting it all settle in. Raph mentions how the top PK/PvP player in UO was soooo far ahead of the #2 PvPer he was untouchable. The disparities between the #2 through #10 PvP players in UO vs the #20 PvP player was also sooooo different.
If you are talking about the NEW PvP oriented games, then yes, your statement is completly true:
SWG IS unofficially UO2. Talk smack in SWG, and there is absolutly nowhere, NOWHERE, in the ENTIRE game you can hide. You can be killed absolutly anywhere! A-N-Y-W-H-E-R-E. In the hospitals, in the hotels, in the cantinas, at the starport, inside ANY city, outpost, base, and of course outside the cities. Not even the original UO had this!
How do ya like those apples? 
SWG has consentual PvP. Thus only players who LIKE to PvP can kill other players who ALSO LIKE to PvP.
When you see another player who is declared, you DO SO have a chance of killing.... or being killed yourself! The "miner vs warrior" syndrome was solved in SWG by Raph Koster... after Raph Koster saw how that seemingly paradox started KILLING off the original UO.
Join Scylla server in SWG, declare yourself either Imperial or Rebel and talk all the smack talk you want - and see how soon you get beat down, and sent running back to these forums crying like a scared little girly-man.
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
Starport is still in late Beta stage. It is also a Mom and Pop game. So it may or may not still be hackable. Heck, ALL Blizzard games are hackable and they are past Beta! And Blizzard is a MAJOR game company!
Merchant ships are not fodder for combat ships. They can easily run away. They also do not NEED to go into PvP areas. Also, players are not stuck with the same ship - they can switch as much as they want between ships. The rough idea is get a merchant ship, use it to make tons of money, then switch to the best possible combat ship, and outfit it with the best possible devices.
-Personal Website (A Work in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
-Hifructose
I couldnt have said it any better.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Maybe someone has to bring out Team America's final speech
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."
You are refuseing to see my point here.
Given EQUAL SKILL, a longer time player whol is higher level in EVE will beat a lower level player. Furthermore that lower level player can NEVER make up the distance due to the nature of the skill system.
IF the newbie is smart, and the vet is dumb, the newbie CAN win. If the newbie is smart and the vet is smart the vet WILL win.
You can talk about skill based all you want, but it is NOT 100% skill based. The newbie WILL be at a disadvantage forever; a disadvantagte that can only be overcome by him being MORE SKILLED than the vet player.
Balance is not achived by relying on the opponet to make a mistake.
You just aren't getting it, I think I am pretty much through trying to argue this point through your thick skull.
A player who stays in safe space will NEVER become as powerful as a player who goes into the PvP zones, this is the crux of the problem. If you do not open yourself to PK you are GIMPED because none of the good roids spawn in safe space, the missions give less, the monsters aren't as hard and don't drop as well. You will NEVER be able to afford to outbid a PK player because that PK player will have access to resources that are 100X as valuable as the ones in safe space.
The point at which you DEMAND that a player go get PKed in order to compete PvP is not consentual anymore.
Oh I am a dam good PK....I am a dam good player. I just don't like games that force that playstyle onto me. It should be optional...UO-style optional, not EVE or Sullon Zek style semi-optional.(Taking Sullon in isolation)
Same problem as EVE that you just refuse to see. PVP in Starport is not optional because in order to access 90% of the game content you MUST open yourself to PVP.
You realize that around 90% of the things you can do in starport you CAN'T do in protected space? You can fly around and trade...That's it. Hell you can't even Taxi because that will take you out of protected space. Protected space in Starport is a NEWBIE zone even worse than EVE's protected space....As I said "If you consider being level 5 forever when there are 65 levels, you can play the game as Non-PVP". But is that really playing?
Top-Tier Starport you NEVER lose to a colony. You ALWAYS take the colony. Only an idiot loses to a colony...And yes I HAVE taken over cols with max turrets/military/solar cannon/in a good defenseive planet. It's EASY because those turrets SUCK. They literally CAN'T kill me before I take out a couple, then I just fly away and repair and come back! There is NO WAY I could ever not take a colony in Starport.
Yes it's actually quite nice that way. Against an idiot player those turrets are effective. Against a good player you are just wasteing your time placeing them.
A game that has better balance and a similar theme(but a bit old) is 10Six. It was canceled by SEGA but was reborn as Project Visitor. It actually has good turrets that can do real damage if properly placed:) Won't stop a full-on zerg attack, you'll have to get other players in to defend with their own rovers, but there does have to be some way to take a base dosen't there?:)
[quote]
SGE is also easily hackable....I managed to make myself invincible with infinite energy and nukes. Talk about your insta-death. In under 2 hours.
Other balance problems of course->The 'merchant' ships are just fodder for one of the combat ships. You can either be a good trader and make money the nice way and eventually get ganked easily by someone in a combat ship...Or be in a combat ship and easily gank other players and take all their money.
They aren't as hackable:) You can't do literally anything you want in a Blizzard game because they aren't 100% clientside, starport is....If I rewrite a section of code to say that I never get hit, then I never get hit.
Or spend 5$ and get an uber combat ship the first day of server up and start ganking...Heh....
well i think we shall have to agree to disagree Xira, you think we have thick skulls, and we of course think you have a thick skull. I and others have attempted to tell you how it works in eve, but you who dont play anymore seem to know better. So be it.