Originally posted by daarco Good idea : ) But first its not about what you can do. Its about logging in and anything can happen. Thats the essence of sandbox gameplay. In most themepark MMOs you know what will happen when you login. You can login to DF with the purpose of exploring. You look for info about conflict in the area you want to explore. Talk to some people and gear up. maybe you think you need some more stuff, so either you craft it..or get it from another player. Maybe you need to gather some stuff first. Anyway, you begin to ride at any direction you desire. Suddenly two reds show up and begin to hunt you. Nine minutes later they manages to kill your mount. But suddenly one of the reds attack and kill the other one. You see your chance and kill the remaining red (wich is badly wounded). You loot the two corpses and realises you have way more stuff now, then you could bare to loose. Need to find a town, and that quick. Adfter a few minutes you ride (with a new looted mount) into a small town. There you meet a group of noobs that want to sail over to another continent. Why not!- you think. You can always kill and loot them (yeah right) if it gets nasty. On the way over with the ship, one of the people says a clanmember needs help in about two hours time. A siege of a city. So you skip the plam to cross the sea and turn around. Two hours later the assualt begin. This was just a quick writing of what you can do : )
You have no idea what a sandbox is. I could do this in a themepark game like WoW. Hell, I could do this in Team Fortress 2, if they put it on a larger map. Face it, you're playing a poorly designed FPS with items. Like TF2 but with worse design.
Exactly what of that could you do in WoW or a themepark MMO? All this you could do from day one in DF.
Again i suggest you to read up some basic terms. FPS, MMORPG, Open world design, sandbox. Maybe you grow some understanding on the terms u use.
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
Again i suggest you to read up some basic terms. FPS, MMORPG, Open world design, sandbox. Maybe you grow some understanding on the terms u use.
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
Again i suggest you to read up some basic terms. FPS, MMORPG, Open world design, sandbox. Maybe you grow some understanding on the terms u use.
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
I know what an FPS is and made a typo, obviously i had the first person perspective in mind Darkfall uses only for ranged combat. watch my lips ...just the first person perspective for ranged combat ...comprehend now ?
FPS games are totally different from that and what Darkfall is about..dude..go make a research on FPS games..
You on the other hand make moronic claims and misses the whole genre of Darkfall.
So tell when you lately placed a house in your FPS ? ROFLSTOMP ...
Dude Darkfall is listed here as MMORPG ..what an idiocy to miss the genre of the game by light years..LOL
Do you think MMORPG.com is wrong ? LOL
I am not sure if you capable of understanding concepts anyway taking your comments @daarco . Dude..seriously ..go research the term FFA full loot PvP ...if you grasp that ruleset and game concept maybe you grow understansting what Darkfall do there. That has nothing to do with FPS multiplayer server or that like. Seriously learn and research concept and terms.
FFA full loot PVP player will laugh at you if you repeat that Darkfall is not a sandbox because you was going for a boat and got attacked , or have been attacked somewhere by someone etc. ROFLSTOMP dude
Mortal Online fans will laugh at you because its planned as fisrt person, ffa full loot and sandbox..Dude go post there to make you look like a moron like you do here and claim that according to your limited understanding MO is a ....FPS PvP server too ! ROFLSTOMP
Dude ...FFA full loot PvP, sandbox gameplay style, first person perspective all these are not exclusive game design elements.
Listen.. if some game has full loot PvP rulset , it can be played from FPP or from 3PP or both like in Darkfall , it can be sandboxy or not and it isnt a FPS but an MMORPG.... You got it ?
FPS is another genre ...i strongly believe that even you can understand that if you put some effort into thinking and or research about that matter.
your welcome .
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You accused me of "not knowing what an FPS or MMO was" despite making the most moronic mistake I've ever seen in a forum on your first post in the thread. Maybe you should just quit this? You kind've suck at "defending" your game, as every post you make makes me want to play it ( and I'm sure many others ) less.
Tell me, when did you use your "house" ( which are apparently placed at static places ) as something other than a place to recharge in / shoot people out of? ROFLSTOMP.
MMORPG.com has all the crappy up and coming FPSes that claim to be massively multiplayer be MMORPGs. kthxbai.
MO is different to DFO because of the simple fact that it's trying to be a SANDBOX, instead of a neckbeard's wankfest.
First person shooter = Something which you shoot from first person. Do you not "shoot" arrows and magic from first person perspective in Darkfall? No? What game are you playing, for bugger's sake? Go home.
Really, there're a few decent fans here who seem to have a pretty balanced opinion, but you just seem to be a slobbering neckbeard who'd spin anything to try and defend his game, even contradicting himself whilst he does so.
Originally posted by cosy any game that allow player advance in any form they want and play the game like they want =dont force user to follow some script= can be called a sandbox the said games are different, some got bigger box, more sand, more toys but the principles is the same
But that would be like saying, "WoW is a sandbox."Look, you play EvE, you know what a sandbox is, and you can't honestly tell me that Darkfall is a sandbox.
wow is not a sandbox
class limited
u are forced to follow a script
you are forced to keep almost all items that u got
if you want a sandbox list i make u one ( also is a list where the sand on the box is less if you go down on the list)
real life
second life
project entropia
......
eve online
ryzom
.......
darkfall
dakfall is a sandbox because the sanbox is based on ideas/principles and you are looking at how this things are made in game, when a idea is put into a game became a feature
the sandbox in darkfall is broken whit holes and pouring sand over the place but still a sandbox
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them.
PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them. PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
Sandbox has nothing to do with PvP, and a game that focuses on PvP to the exclusion of everything else ( Darkfall ) is definitely not a sandbox.
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them. PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
Sandbox has nothing to do with PvP, and a game that focuses on PvP to the exclusion of everything else ( Darkfall ) is definitely not a sandbox.
Seriously dude get yourself some knowledge about FF full loot PvP settings, like the poster you quoted try to tell you but you obviously not capable of understanding terms and concept.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Tell me, when did you use your "house" ( which are apparently placed at static places ) as something other than a place to recharge in / shoot people out of? ROFLSTOMP.
MMORPG.com has all the crappy up and coming FPSes that claim to be massively multiplayer be MMORPGs. kthxbai.
MO is different to DFO because of the simple fact that it's trying to be a SANDBOX, instead of a neckbeard's wankfest.
First person shooter = Something which you shoot from first person. Do you not "shoot" arrows and magic from first person perspective in Darkfall? No? What game are you playing, for bugger's sake? Go home.
Really, there're a few decent fans here who seem to have a pretty balanced opinion, but you just seem to be a slobbering neckbeard who'd spin anything to try and defend his game, even contradicting himself whilst he does so.
I use my house to grow archangelica herbs and have it decorated with rugs and paintings. To my knowledge that doesnt sound like an FPS ..dude ..go get u some knowledge about MMORPG and FPS and the difference in them ..
Dude..MO is planned as FFA full loot PvP ..you can be attacked anywhere anytime ..according your bubbling that cannot be sandbox ..ROFLSTOMP
Listen dude ...MO is planned to use only First Person perspective. You will "shoot" arrows and magic from FPP in Mortal Online ..are you drunk while reading or talking about a game ? According to your poor thoughts Mortal Online should be a FPS and Darkfall not.
Darkfall uses third person perspective for mellee combat , for raiding a mount, for sailing a ship , for gathering materials...Dude ...did you know that ? MO = FPP only , Darkfall FPP + 3PP , according to your spastic logic MO would be an FPS ..ROFLSTOP
According to that same spastic logic of yours answer and tell me tell me what i if you riding a mount ? or sail a ship ? you are not in first person and you not shoot ..so tell me ..ROFLSTOMP
Again dude..FPS is a genre ..and Darkfall is an MMORPG..Do you undertstand what "genre" means ? FPS is different from MMORPG..is different from RTS ..dude go get you some knowledge and do some research on the different genre existing on games.
The only one who is contradicting here is you ..because you use terms you have no idea what they mean..
Does heaven and crap make your head swim or reel or something ?
Darkfall is a sandboxy MMORPG ..dude.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Do you RP in your house, do you really do ANYTHING with it? No, you just use it to give you an advantage in PvP, and that's all it's used for. Face it.
In Unreal Tournament, I get in a tank and I'm in third person. Does this make it not an FPS?
Darkfall is an FPS in a huge world, not a sandbox game. It's THAT simple, chap. Face up to it, Darkfall is not a sandbox, it's an empty cardboard box like the ones that I used to play with as a child, pretending it was a spaceship or a car.
EDIT: You really need to stop throwing your stones whilst living in a glass house. You have no idea what you're talking about, and yet try and question me? Go back under your bridge.
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them.
PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
sir that is my list and on my list i put what ever i want
I think it just sounds as some people DONT want Darkfall to be a sanbox MMO. Even if we look at the game and clearly can see it is!
I have to say, I don't want anyone to think this game is a sandbox, because that just leads to more crap like this being produced and being mislabelled as a part of the sandbox subgenre of MMOs. There is no way this game is a sandbox, the end of all characters is the same ( having all skills 100 / 99.9 ) and the only thing to really do is grind and slap other players, nothing else.
'sandbox' is an idiotic buzz word used to try and categorize an mmo into a genre, with many so many subjective factors that come into play.
It's an argument that has no end, because there is no true definition of what makes a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' game, other than opinionated generalizations of what they should be.
You should really stick to asking specific questions like:
Like has been stated numerous times, you can ask 100 people what the criteria that a game has to meet before it can be labeled a "sandbox" is, and you will get 10, 000 different combination's .
Most feel that as long as it meets "their" criteria, it is a sandbox. Even if said criteria may change at a moments notice, and doesn't meet the next person's set of criteria.
Here's a little article I ran across a while back, that takes a pretty in-depth look at what makes a game a sandbox, and where most developers fall short.
Personally, I found the article to be refreshing and just a little more than enlightening.
Now, this doesn't answer the OP question as to what makes Darkfall a sandbox or not, but it may shed some light as to why some feel the way they do on the matter.
What makes Darkfall a "Sandbox"? Like has been stated numerous times, you can ask 100 people what the criteria that a game has to meet before it can be labeled a "sandbox" is, and you will get 10, 000 different combination's .
Most feel that as long as it meets "their" criteria, it is a sandbox. Even if said criteria may change at a moments notice, and doesn't meet the next person's set of criteria.
Here's a little article I ran across a while back, that takes a pretty in-depth look at what makes a game a sandbox, and where most developers fall short.
Personally, I found the article to be refreshing and just a little more than enlightening.
Now, this doesn't answer the OP question as to what makes Darkfall a sandbox or not, but it may shed some light as to why some feel the way they do on the matter.
Enjoy.
edit: pelling
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
His very basic concept of a sandbox reveals some misconceptions on his part.
First his picture of a potentially participant of a sandbox game:
"a child playing in a sandbox needs a lot of direction if they're going to have very much fun.". He derives that from the sandbox metaphor and mistakes sandbox fans as human beings with low IQ and need an NPC to hold his hand to be driven from mission to mission and told what to do. Maybe he is right taken those who prefer chain quests, classes and player levels.
However he totally ignores intrinsic motivation. That is the ability of an player to set himself goals and rewards himself. These type of response gets supported by sandbox type of games (fopr example in Darfall if you have build a good clan, you have rewarded yourself ) and is far better motivation then if a NPC tells you what to do and or a artificial "narrative system" what you should do next and if you completed something. really if i read what he write about "sandbox" i think he don't know what a sandbox is (what he thinks is sandbox looks very themepark to me, it involves areas you had no access to prior to reach some level or solved some quest ) :
"The necessary framework guides the presentation of the sandbox elements as the world develops and unfolds. This is often expressed as a reward system, which can involve new areas to explore and new stuff to do, more difficult gameplay structures to navigate, more story unfolding, more missions becoming available, and so on".
Maybe he would have had a better concept on sandbox if he would have considered MMORPG's who have set the bar on sandboxy instead of having a concept of a player as one of being alone and having low IQ. Player in a sandbox game however are acting within a social network being intrinsic motivated.
Also he has no concept on cyclic processes in sandbox games. "narrative" progression leads you to linear progression wheras the cyclic process , is a typical progression within a sandbox. There is a castle, there is a owner , there is a siege mechanic , there is a change of an owner, there is a new challenge , a new siege and so forth.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
What makes Darkfall a "Sandbox"? Like has been stated numerous times, you can ask 100 people what the criteria that a game has to meet before it can be labeled a "sandbox" is, and you will get 10, 000 different combination's .
Most feel that as long as it meets "their" criteria, it is a sandbox. Even if said criteria may change at a moments notice, and doesn't meet the next person's set of criteria.
Here's a little article I ran across a while back, that takes a pretty in-depth look at what makes a game a sandbox, and where most developers fall short.
Personally, I found the article to be refreshing and just a little more than enlightening.
Now, this doesn't answer the OP question as to what makes Darkfall a sandbox or not, but it may shed some light as to why some feel the way they do on the matter.
Enjoy.
edit: pelling
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
Nothing fishy there Darth, MMO)RPG's are discussed, but in the game world, the concept and design are basically the same.
The article discusses the sandbox. Yes, there are diferences that have to be accounted for between your 1 - 4 player RPG and a MMORPG, but the fundamentals are the same. The author firmly believes that the biggest mistake a designer makes when wanting to create a "sandbox" environment, is that "less is more". That the amount of detail and dedication that is required to pull off a successful "sandbox" is usually lost on today's game designers.
"Conclusion
In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.
Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. In this case, there's no artfully-crafted narrative, so no climax; there's no reward scheme or gameplay-building (such as technique-training and gradation of difficulty). All told, it is weak on conventional game-design fundamentals. The added freedom makes up for this to an extent, but the problems must still be addressed and overcome by the gameplay design itself.
The space-empire-building game X3 is a solid example of this. "There is a main campaign, but it is secondary to the sandbox play. (It wasn't carefully designed or written, which is unfortunate, but let's leave that aside.) The game shines as a sandbox involving the handling of complex systems, and the emergent behaviors are interesting, on a systemic scale.
In the end, however, managing the empire becomes something like a full-time job, the goal and reward being that you have a stranglehold on a single-player universe. From one perspective, it's fun to gradually corner and master a dynamic system, but from another perspective it's -- well, let's just say that one might be inspired to existential or self-ironical thoughts: "why am I doing this?" "
What makes Darkfall a "Sandbox"? Like has been stated numerous times, you can ask 100 people what the criteria that a game has to meet before it can be labeled a "sandbox" is, and you will get 10, 000 different combination's .
Most feel that as long as it meets "their" criteria, it is a sandbox. Even if said criteria may change at a moments notice, and doesn't meet the next person's set of criteria.
Here's a little article I ran across a while back, that takes a pretty in-depth look at what makes a game a sandbox, and where most developers fall short.
Personally, I found the article to be refreshing and just a little more than enlightening.
Now, this doesn't answer the OP question as to what makes Darkfall a sandbox or not, but it may shed some light as to why some feel the way they do on the matter.
Enjoy.
edit: pelling
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
Nothing fishy there Darth, MMO)RPG's are discussed, but in the game world, the concept and design are basically the same.
The article discusses the sandbox. Yes, there are diferences that have to be accounted for between your 1 - 4 player RPG and a MMORPG, but the fundamentals are the same. The author firmly believes that the biggest mistake a designer makes when wanting to create a "sandbox" environment, is that "less is more". That the amount of detail and dedication that is required to pull off a successful "sandbox" is usually lost on today's game designers.
"Conclusion
In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.
Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. In this case, there's no artfully-crafted narrative, so no climax; there's no reward scheme or gameplay-building (such as technique-training and gradation of difficulty). All told, it is weak on conventional game-design fundamentals. The added freedom makes up for this to an extent, but the problems must still be addressed and overcome by the gameplay design itself.
The space-empire-building game X3 is a solid example of this. "There is a main campaign, but it is secondary to the sandbox play. (It wasn't carefully designed or written, which is unfortunate, but let's leave that aside.) The game shines as a sandbox involving the handling of complex systems, and the emergent behaviors are interesting, on a systemic scale.
In the end, however, managing the empire becomes something like a full-time job, the goal and reward being that you have a stranglehold on a single-player universe. From one perspective, it's fun to gradually corner and master a dynamic system, but from another perspective it's -- well, let's just say that one might be inspired to existential or self-ironical thoughts: "why am I doing this?" "
i expanded my post, read about "intrinsic motivation" and the ability of players to set themsleves goals and even to reward themsleves in a modern sandbox MMO, without the need of "narrative systems" etc..
Sandbox just needs a open world and the less "content" i.e narrative systems , the better ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
i expanded my post, read about "intrinsic motivation" and the ability of players to set themsleves goals and even to reward themsleves in a modern sandbox MMO, without the need of "narrative systems" etc.. Sandbox just needs a open world and the less "content" i.e narrative systems , the better ..
It's nice to see you have no idea what you're talking about.
i expanded my post, read about "intrinsic motivation" and the ability of players to set themsleves goals and even to reward themsleves in a modern sandbox MMO, without the need of "narrative systems" etc.. Sandbox just needs a open world and the less "content" i.e narrative systems , the better ..
It's nice to see you have no idea what you're talking about.
I see confirmation on you still have done no research on the things being discussed here.Better let conversation to those who know what they talk about.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Originally posted by DarthRaiden I see confirmation on you still have done no research on the things being discussed here.Better let conversation to those who know what they talk about.
"Blah blah blah." Oh, wait, something important! You're not posting here anymore? Good!
Oh, no, wait, it was a crappy jibe in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your lack of knowledge of game design and theory. =( Really, that bullshit about "intrinsic motivation" made me laugh. Trying to justify Darkfall's lack of features with some "SANDBOX NOT NEED FEATURE" crap.
I mean, I'd count real life as the ultimate sandbox, and that has hundreds of "features". kthxbai.
C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!
Comments
You have no idea what a sandbox is. I could do this in a themepark game like WoW. Hell, I could do this in Team Fortress 2, if they put it on a larger map. Face it, you're playing a poorly designed FPS with items. Like TF2 but with worse design.
Exactly what of that could you do in WoW or a themepark MMO? All this you could do from day one in DF.
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
@Cosy: A sandbox without sand is just a box.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
One massive un-instanced world where players can affect geography through teraforming or building placement = sandbox
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
@Cosy: A sandbox without sand is just a box.
FPS = First Person Shooter....
Not according to Darth over there.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
Not according to Darth over there.
Haha my bad. didn't see that LoL
Wait.
"IMO you have no idea about whats an FPS too. You should also ask others "whats an FPS" ?
FPS sands for (F)irst (P)erson (P)erspective" from you, Darth. Try harder, troll.
@Daarco: All of it, on a PvP server. Going to grab a boat, get attacked, find out Wintergrasp is on, attack keep etc. So, yes, Darkfall is not a sandbox.
@Cosy: A sandbox without sand is just a box.
I know what an FPS is and made a typo, obviously i had the first person perspective in mind Darkfall uses only for ranged combat. watch my lips ...just the first person perspective for ranged combat ...comprehend now ?
FPS games are totally different from that and what Darkfall is about..dude..go make a research on FPS games..
You on the other hand make moronic claims and misses the whole genre of Darkfall.
So tell when you lately placed a house in your FPS ? ROFLSTOMP ...
Dude Darkfall is listed here as MMORPG ..what an idiocy to miss the genre of the game by light years..LOL
Do you think MMORPG.com is wrong ? LOL
I am not sure if you capable of understanding concepts anyway taking your comments @daarco . Dude..seriously ..go research the term FFA full loot PvP ...if you grasp that ruleset and game concept maybe you grow understansting what Darkfall do there. That has nothing to do with FPS multiplayer server or that like. Seriously learn and research concept and terms.
FFA full loot PVP player will laugh at you if you repeat that Darkfall is not a sandbox because you was going for a boat and got attacked , or have been attacked somewhere by someone etc. ROFLSTOMP dude
Mortal Online fans will laugh at you because its planned as fisrt person, ffa full loot and sandbox..Dude go post there to make you look like a moron like you do here and claim that according to your limited understanding MO is a ....FPS PvP server too ! ROFLSTOMP
Dude ...FFA full loot PvP, sandbox gameplay style, first person perspective all these are not exclusive game design elements.
Listen.. if some game has full loot PvP rulset , it can be played from FPP or from 3PP or both like in Darkfall , it can be sandboxy or not and it isnt a FPS but an MMORPG.... You got it ?
FPS is another genre ...i strongly believe that even you can understand that if you put some effort into thinking and or research about that matter.
your welcome .
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You accused me of "not knowing what an FPS or MMO was" despite making the most moronic mistake I've ever seen in a forum on your first post in the thread. Maybe you should just quit this? You kind've suck at "defending" your game, as every post you make makes me want to play it ( and I'm sure many others ) less.
Tell me, when did you use your "house" ( which are apparently placed at static places ) as something other than a place to recharge in / shoot people out of? ROFLSTOMP.
MMORPG.com has all the crappy up and coming FPSes that claim to be massively multiplayer be MMORPGs. kthxbai.
MO is different to DFO because of the simple fact that it's trying to be a SANDBOX, instead of a neckbeard's wankfest.
First person shooter = Something which you shoot from first person. Do you not "shoot" arrows and magic from first person perspective in Darkfall? No? What game are you playing, for bugger's sake? Go home.
Really, there're a few decent fans here who seem to have a pretty balanced opinion, but you just seem to be a slobbering neckbeard who'd spin anything to try and defend his game, even contradicting himself whilst he does so.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
But that would be like saying, "WoW is a sandbox."Look, you play EvE, you know what a sandbox is, and you can't honestly tell me that Darkfall is a sandbox.
wow is not a sandbox
if you want a sandbox list i make u one ( also is a list where the sand on the box is less if you go down on the list)
dakfall is a sandbox because the sanbox is based on ideas/principles and you are looking at how this things are made in game, when a idea is put into a game became a feature
the sandbox in darkfall is broken whit holes and pouring sand over the place but still a sandbox
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them.
PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
Sandbox has nothing to do with PvP, and a game that focuses on PvP to the exclusion of everything else ( Darkfall ) is definitely not a sandbox.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
Sandbox has nothing to do with PvP, and a game that focuses on PvP to the exclusion of everything else ( Darkfall ) is definitely not a sandbox.
Seriously dude get yourself some knowledge about FF full loot PvP settings, like the poster you quoted try to tell you but you obviously not capable of understanding terms and concept.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
<snip>
Tell me, when did you use your "house" ( which are apparently placed at static places ) as something other than a place to recharge in / shoot people out of? ROFLSTOMP.
MMORPG.com has all the crappy up and coming FPSes that claim to be massively multiplayer be MMORPGs. kthxbai.
MO is different to DFO because of the simple fact that it's trying to be a SANDBOX, instead of a neckbeard's wankfest.
First person shooter = Something which you shoot from first person. Do you not "shoot" arrows and magic from first person perspective in Darkfall? No? What game are you playing, for bugger's sake? Go home.
Really, there're a few decent fans here who seem to have a pretty balanced opinion, but you just seem to be a slobbering neckbeard who'd spin anything to try and defend his game, even contradicting himself whilst he does so.
I use my house to grow archangelica herbs and have it decorated with rugs and paintings. To my knowledge that doesnt sound like an FPS ..dude ..go get u some knowledge about MMORPG and FPS and the difference in them ..
Dude..MO is planned as FFA full loot PvP ..you can be attacked anywhere anytime ..according your bubbling that cannot be sandbox ..ROFLSTOMP
Listen dude ...MO is planned to use only First Person perspective. You will "shoot" arrows and magic from FPP in Mortal Online ..are you drunk while reading or talking about a game ? According to your poor thoughts Mortal Online should be a FPS and Darkfall not.
Darkfall uses third person perspective for mellee combat , for raiding a mount, for sailing a ship , for gathering materials...Dude ...did you know that ? MO = FPP only , Darkfall FPP + 3PP , according to your spastic logic MO would be an FPS ..ROFLSTOP
According to that same spastic logic of yours answer and tell me tell me what i if you riding a mount ? or sail a ship ? you are not in first person and you not shoot ..so tell me ..ROFLSTOMP
Again dude..FPS is a genre ..and Darkfall is an MMORPG..Do you undertstand what "genre" means ? FPS is different from MMORPG..is different from RTS ..dude go get you some knowledge and do some research on the different genre existing on games.
The only one who is contradicting here is you ..because you use terms you have no idea what they mean..
Does heaven and crap make your head swim or reel or something ?
Darkfall is a sandboxy MMORPG ..dude.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Do you RP in your house, do you really do ANYTHING with it? No, you just use it to give you an advantage in PvP, and that's all it's used for. Face it.
In Unreal Tournament, I get in a tank and I'm in third person. Does this make it not an FPS?
Darkfall is an FPS in a huge world, not a sandbox game. It's THAT simple, chap. Face up to it, Darkfall is not a sandbox, it's an empty cardboard box like the ones that I used to play with as a child, pretending it was a spaceship or a car.
EDIT: You really need to stop throwing your stones whilst living in a glass house. You have no idea what you're talking about, and yet try and question me?
Go back under your bridge.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
What about the grand daddy of sandbox games, that is still alive and kicking after 12 years (Ultima Online,) where does that rank on yer list! Also, Ryzom is a PVE only game, how is that more any sandboxy than Darkfall, which focuses more heavily on pvp but still has at least some pve elements. I think any list like this is better left out when proving your sandboxy point because everyone has their own list of what games represent the sandbox genre for them. For me its UO, Asheron's call and Shadowbane. While I consider none of them to be a perfect sandbox they all have entertaining aspects in them and a wide variety of freedom to choose what to do with the time you spent playing them.
PS Orriginal Poster, Darkfall while not the perfect sandbox is definitely more sandbox style mmo than themepark. So either someone needs to coin a new phrase just to describe the niche this game fills or accept that it is in fact sandboxy.
sir that is my list and on my list i put what ever i want
BestSigEver :P
I think it just sounds as some people DONT want Darkfall to be a sanbox MMO. Even if we look at the game and clearly can see it is!
I have to say, I don't want anyone to think this game is a sandbox, because that just leads to more crap like this being produced and being mislabelled as a part of the sandbox subgenre of MMOs. There is no way this game is a sandbox, the end of all characters is the same ( having all skills 100 / 99.9 ) and the only thing to really do is grind and slap other players, nothing else.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
'sandbox' is an idiotic buzz word used to try and categorize an mmo into a genre, with many so many subjective factors that come into play.
It's an argument that has no end, because there is no true definition of what makes a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' game, other than opinionated generalizations of what they should be.
You should really stick to asking specific questions like:
"is there full-loot pvp?"
"are quests generic like in other games?"
etc....
What makes Darkfall a "Sandbox"?
Like has been stated numerous times, you can ask 100 people what the criteria that a game has to meet before it can be labeled a "sandbox" is, and you will get 10, 000 different combination's .
Most feel that as long as it meets "their" criteria, it is a sandbox. Even if said criteria may change at a moments notice, and doesn't meet the next person's set of criteria.
Here's a little article I ran across a while back, that takes a pretty in-depth look at what makes a game a sandbox, and where most developers fall short.
The History and Theory of Sandbox Gameplay
Personally, I found the article to be refreshing and just a little more than enlightening.
Now, this doesn't answer the OP question as to what makes Darkfall a sandbox or not, but it may shed some light as to why some feel the way they do on the matter.
Enjoy.
edit: pelling
DarkFall FAQ - Read then Question with Boldness
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
His very basic concept of a sandbox reveals some misconceptions on his part.
First his picture of a potentially participant of a sandbox game:
"a child playing in a sandbox needs a lot of direction if they're going to have very much fun.". He derives that from the sandbox metaphor and mistakes sandbox fans as human beings with low IQ and need an NPC to hold his hand to be driven from mission to mission and told what to do. Maybe he is right taken those who prefer chain quests, classes and player levels.
However he totally ignores intrinsic motivation. That is the ability of an player to set himself goals and rewards himself. These type of response gets supported by sandbox type of games (fopr example in Darfall if you have build a good clan, you have rewarded yourself ) and is far better motivation then if a NPC tells you what to do and or a artificial "narrative system" what you should do next and if you completed something. really if i read what he write about "sandbox" i think he don't know what a sandbox is (what he thinks is sandbox looks very themepark to me, it involves areas you had no access to prior to reach some level or solved some quest ) :
"The necessary framework guides the presentation of the sandbox elements as the world develops and unfolds. This is often expressed as a reward system, which can involve new areas to explore and new stuff to do, more difficult gameplay structures to navigate, more story unfolding, more missions becoming available, and so on".
Maybe he would have had a better concept on sandbox if he would have considered MMORPG's who have set the bar on sandboxy instead of having a concept of a player as one of being alone and having low IQ. Player in a sandbox game however are acting within a social network being intrinsic motivated.
Also he has no concept on cyclic processes in sandbox games. "narrative" progression leads you to linear progression wheras the cyclic process , is a typical progression within a sandbox. There is a castle, there is a owner , there is a siege mechanic , there is a change of an owner, there is a new challenge , a new siege and so forth.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
Nothing fishy there Darth, MMO)RPG's are discussed, but in the game world, the concept and design are basically the same.
The article discusses the sandbox. Yes, there are diferences that have to be accounted for between your 1 - 4 player RPG and a MMORPG, but the fundamentals are the same. The author firmly believes that the biggest mistake a designer makes when wanting to create a "sandbox" environment, is that "less is more". That the amount of detail and dedication that is required to pull off a successful "sandbox" is usually lost on today's game designers.
"Conclusion
In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.
Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. In this case, there's no artfully-crafted narrative, so no climax; there's no reward scheme or gameplay-building (such as technique-training and gradation of difficulty). All told, it is weak on conventional game-design fundamentals. The added freedom makes up for this to an extent, but the problems must still be addressed and overcome by the gameplay design itself.
The space-empire-building game X3 is a solid example of this. "There is a main campaign, but it is secondary to the sandbox play. (It wasn't carefully designed or written, which is unfortunate, but let's leave that aside.) The game shines as a sandbox involving the handling of complex systems, and the emergent behaviors are interesting, on a systemic scale.
In the end, however, managing the empire becomes something like a full-time job, the goal and reward being that you have a stranglehold on a single-player universe. From one perspective, it's fun to gradually corner and master a dynamic system, but from another perspective it's -- well, let's just say that one might be inspired to existential or self-ironical thoughts: "why am I doing this?" "
DarkFall FAQ - Read then Question with Boldness
I find it very fishy that the article don't consider and discuss MMORPG's in relation to sandbox.
Nothing fishy there Darth, MMO)RPG's are discussed, but in the game world, the concept and design are basically the same.
The article discusses the sandbox. Yes, there are diferences that have to be accounted for between your 1 - 4 player RPG and a MMORPG, but the fundamentals are the same. The author firmly believes that the biggest mistake a designer makes when wanting to create a "sandbox" environment, is that "less is more". That the amount of detail and dedication that is required to pull off a successful "sandbox" is usually lost on today's game designers.
"Conclusion
In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring.
Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. In this case, there's no artfully-crafted narrative, so no climax; there's no reward scheme or gameplay-building (such as technique-training and gradation of difficulty). All told, it is weak on conventional game-design fundamentals. The added freedom makes up for this to an extent, but the problems must still be addressed and overcome by the gameplay design itself.
The space-empire-building game X3 is a solid example of this. "There is a main campaign, but it is secondary to the sandbox play. (It wasn't carefully designed or written, which is unfortunate, but let's leave that aside.) The game shines as a sandbox involving the handling of complex systems, and the emergent behaviors are interesting, on a systemic scale.
In the end, however, managing the empire becomes something like a full-time job, the goal and reward being that you have a stranglehold on a single-player universe. From one perspective, it's fun to gradually corner and master a dynamic system, but from another perspective it's -- well, let's just say that one might be inspired to existential or self-ironical thoughts: "why am I doing this?" "
i expanded my post, read about "intrinsic motivation" and the ability of players to set themsleves goals and even to reward themsleves in a modern sandbox MMO, without the need of "narrative systems" etc..
Sandbox just needs a open world and the less "content" i.e narrative systems , the better ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
It's nice to see you have no idea what you're talking about.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
It's nice to see you have no idea what you're talking about.
I see confirmation on you still have done no research on the things being discussed here.Better let conversation to those who know what they talk about.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
"Blah blah blah." Oh, wait, something important! You're not posting here anymore? Good!
Oh, no, wait, it was a crappy jibe in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your lack of knowledge of game design and theory. =( Really, that bullshit about "intrinsic motivation" made me laugh. Trying to justify Darkfall's lack of features with some "SANDBOX NOT NEED FEATURE" crap.
I mean, I'd count real life as the ultimate sandbox, and that has hundreds of "features". kthxbai.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!