... "Conclusion In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring. Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. ..."
I agree with that part above.
Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:
As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion".
Should be an interesting time for DarkFall. Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.
... "Conclusion In direct opposition to the notion implied by the metaphor, sandbox design requires more top-level design, not less. To be frank: the great risk of the sandbox is that it can be boring. Where the sandbox is the main part of the game, sometimes the game is impossible to "master": instead you can just juke around with it until it grows tiresome. ..."
I agree with that part above.
Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:
As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion".
Should be an interesting time for DarkFall. Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.
Maybe its you making such posts on official forums just to link them here after.
Serious, prior to official boards beeing customer only i dont consider them troll free. Forum poster are always the whiney, bitching and moaning folks, the mass of players don't bother posting they spending time on playing it, that is on every games official forum.
About the point being made i said it already, Sandbox gives you freedom, freeedom requires responsibility on your side to make goals and make decisions and even reward yourself. If you can't manage responsibilty or lack intrinsic motivation get you a game in which developers think for you and you just do what they tell you to do, thats what i suggest to those people who feel bored.
In themepark games players get bored if they reach "endgame" - they beat the last opponent, they reached highest level, they got the best item as reward. Those themeparks produce more people being bored then any sandbox will do, showing that the argument used here against sandbox games must be flawed in the root. Themepark games have the boring factor built-in so to speak: "what to do after i got max level ? what to do ..there is no quest anymore.." etc..
(btw being bored is a feeling either and a feeling is a weakness for weaklings lol )
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Sorry, but the FFA PVP setting, if done NOT properly, like in Darkfall, its one of the most restrictive ruleset a MMO could have, because it forced the majority of players to bind to the playstile of a few ones, removing freedom from the game ( and no freedom, no sandbox)
I know a few players who do not have combat skills but have most if not all gathering and crafter skills. They are not forced to have combat skills. Hell, I escorted one from one city to another to use our shipyard. They didn't want to use a runestone for whatever reason. Yep, your forced to do combat skills. Not.
Exactly. FFA PVP is what you make of it, to a large extent. It is a harsher world. Being a harsher world does not make it less of a sandbox in itself. It makes it different, and maybe not what you want, but it is still a sandbox and is still a decently designed, if poorly run, game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!
You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.
If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.
C´mon, there have been claims in this thread that even WoW is a sandbox MMO. And when people say stuff like that, we would have no problem to make Darkfall a sandbox MMO as well!
You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.
If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.
WoW = Open-ish world with a few things to do.
Therefore, WoW = Sandbox.
BUT, Darkfall =/= Sandbox, so WoW =/= Sandbox.
There is no logic in that statement.
Your misunderstanding what is meant by open world. WoW's world is set in stone, there is nothing you can do to alter it whatsoever. What they mean by sandbox is the game developers provide an area in which to play and what you choose to do in that area is up to you, you can mold it, destroy it, create it. Most importantly there is no limits beyond the physical limits of the universe which you inhabit. If you want to build something, you can, if you want to destroy something, you can, if you want to kill something, you can, if you want too....see?
Darkfall isn't a true sandbox, but it is pretty close and could be called sandbox-ish, more so than games like WoW which are pretty linear in many ways. This is why people make the distinction between themeparks and sanboxes. Themeparks are made and you play in them, you play their game, play their classes, level within their restrictions and limits..sandboxes allow you to play your own game and build that "themepark" (i.e the physical world) yourself and play your character your way.
There are much better sandbox games out right now, but im not going to mention them as i don't want the WoW game-wrecking-train to roll into them, QQ to the gods, then tear them to pieces.
Sandbox games are a lot of fun, but there is a large population of modern mmo gamers who seem to be unable to appreciate them for what they are. If they don't have 10,000 quests and hold their hands, tell them how to play, tell them how to spec, tell them exactly how to take down that big boss and effectively wipe their asses from start to finish, they can't seem to deal with it.
Imagine in WoW if you could kill the NPC's who annoy you, if a player sasses you in a newbie zone, you don't have to take it, you could simply attack them and let your blades do the talking. Gold sellers? Wouldn't you LOVE to just walk up to them and rip their heads off? REAL risk vs REAL reward? This is what sandbox games should be all about, your actions have consequences, but not game-engine pre-determined actions, real players dealing out real retibution.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Originally posted by Zinzan There is no logic in that statement. Your misunderstanding what is meant by open world. WoW's world is set in stone, there is nothing you can do to alter it whatsoever. What they mean by sandbox is the game developers provide an area in which to play and what you choose to do in that area is up to you, you can mold it, destroy it, create it. Most importantly there is no limits beyond the physical limits of the universe which you inhabit. If you want to build something, you can, if you want to destroy something, you can, if you want to kill something, you can, if you want too....see? Darkfall isn't a true sandbox, but it is pretty close and could be called sandbox-ish, more so than games like WoW which are pretty linear in many ways. This is why people make the distinction between themeparks and sanboxes. Themeparks are made and you play in them, you play their game, play their classes, level within their restrictions and limits..sandboxes allow you to play your own game and build that "themepark" (i.e the physical world) yourself and play your character your way. There are much better sandbox games out right now, but im not going to mention them as i don't want the WoW game-wrecking-train to roll into them, QQ to the gods, then tear them to pieces. Sandbox games are a lot of fun, but there is a large population of modern mmo gamers who seem to be unable to appreciate them for what they are. If they don't have 10,000 quests and hold their hands, tell them how to play, tell them how to spec, tell them exactly how to take down that big boss and effectively wipe their asses from start to finish, they can't seem to deal with it. Imagine in WoW if you could kill the NPC's who annoy you, if a player sasses you in a newbie zone, you don't have to take it, you could simply attack them and let your blades do the talking. Gold sellers? Wouldn't you LOVE to just walk up to them and rip their heads off? REAL risk vs REAL reward? This is what sandbox games should be all about, your actions have consequences, but not game-engine pre-determined actions, real players dealing out real retibution.
And, from what I can tell, Darkfall has next to none of that, except the "YOU CAN MURDER" bit.
Check out my signature, and you'll see what I classify as a sandbox game.
Its very simple actually. In a MMO were you can play without doing quests...then its a sandbox MMO. If you need to do quests its a themepark. When you first login to DF for the very first time, you can do whatever you want anywere you want. When you first login to WoW, you need to do quests. The whole game is built around the concept that you do quests. And keep doing them.
That's an awful definition. I can just grind in WoW to level 80. Hell, I could leave the starting zone and grind on mobs a few levels higher than me. OH MY GOD, it's such an open and sandbox game.
And, from what I can tell, Darkfall has next to none of that, except the "YOU CAN MURDER" bit. Check out my signature, and you'll see what I classify as a sandbox game.
You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you.
"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Originally posted by DarthRaiden You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you.
"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer
Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.
Originally posted by DarthRaiden You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you.
"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer
Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.
Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.
Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.
That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.
Dawnsinger you have been given the reasons why DF is sandbox now stop trolling already.
You are ridiculous if you propagate this fantasy of yours that DF is not a sandbox.
Yea those haters are ridicolous, Darkfall is not sandbox, darkfall is still vapor , whats next these sycophantic dishonest haters will claim? lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Originally posted by metalhead980 Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.
Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.
That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.
Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.
@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.
@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.
@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.
A MMORPG is a sandbox if objective indicators can be attested.
- a seamless non instanced world
- unlimited access to game content not hindered through classes, player levels, quest chains and quest requirements
- cyclic repeatable processes and content instead of linear progression.
If all of that apply then we face a sandbox ..
lets apply that for a test :
UO - pass = sandbox
SWG pre CU - pass = sandbox
Ryzom - pass = sandbox
Darkfall - pass = sandbox
Guild wars - fail = not sandbox
WoW - fail = not sandbox
These definition seems covers pretty much what sandbox is and what not and Darkfall is a sandbox.
@Down : during periods of witch-hunting wrong ridicolous criteria and definitions have been used to valify persons. Same tactic you use here against Darkfall, reconnaissance helped in case of witch-hunting maybe it helps here too.
lets make the opposite test and apply you ridicolous indicator of what not sandbox is :
-FFA full loot PvP is not sandbox aka "uhm i got attacked everywhere like the small whiny carebear i am i start to difame the game on forums instead to take it like a man and simply accept the ruleset."
UO - pass = would make it not a sandbox ..oh wait.. UO is a sandbox
Mortal Online - pass = would make it not a sandbox - oh wait so many people wrongly believe to wait for sandbox ?
resulting in your criteria is faulty
@all who think sandbox is a subjective feeling / everyone has his own definition
you would agree to the point that there is a difference in gameplay in the various MMORPG games and seems a lot of people "feel" the same about exact same games. That can't be coincidence..
There MUST be a different type of MMORPG's and because of a lot of people agree on that and even mostly on the games that belong to that type and the other games belong to other type these difference must be a difference basing on objective criteria's. its not true that everyone can make up if his game is sandbox or not. Its eiher a MMORPG meets the criteria and then it is a sanbox or it isn't. The "degree" of sandbox may be open to subjective judgement but the type if sandbox or not is bound to objective criteria.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Originally posted by metalhead980 Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.
Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.
That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.
Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.
@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.
@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.
@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.
IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.
IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.
A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.
Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple.
IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.
IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.
A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.
Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple.
In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.
@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/
IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.
IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.
A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.
Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple.
In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.
@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/
But in a way that does allow the ultimate in freedom. I am for a skill cap and like the idea of being a specialist but thats not DF. You can do anything you want. You are correct everyone ends up the same but doesnt mean everyone plays the same. In a true class system you have some that are better than others and have better reaction times but in the end they all play the same. DF is flawed in many ways but it is for all intents and purpose a sandbox but how much sand it has is up for debate.
im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle.
I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.
im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle. I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.
Very well said.
I play just the same as you. Love a little melee, and love me some bow.
Maybe people just need to switch games if they become bored of one. How much time can you honestly enjoy out of one game.
They all eventually become tired.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle. I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.
Just a "devil's advocate", but if everyone can grind to 99.9 skill or max out everything, then are you specializing or handicapping?
edit: just to expand a little, I think a skill decay system or a significant time sink that is not easily circumvented would really contribute to the idea of specializing. Sure, a game like EvE allows you to train all skills to max, but there is a significant barrier to reaching max skill based on the time required. As a result, specialization is the norm.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle. I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.
Just a "devil's advocate", but if everyone can grind to 99.9 skill or max out everything, then are you specializing or handicapping?
edit: just to expand a little, I think a skill decay system or a significant time sink that is not easily circumvented would really contribute to the idea of specializing. Sure, a game like EvE allows you to train all skills to max, but there is a significant barrier to reaching max skill based on the time required. As a result, specialization is the norm.
Specializing, I wont be at a disadvantage if I only trained up Archery an melee while another guy has magic, archery and melee.
I've already tested this out I kill people just as much as I die as an archer with decent melee skills for oh shit situations.
Anyway last time I checked it does take quite some time to skill in everything, this is not something you could do in a couple months believe me. Actually I dont think we have any players in game that naturally skilled everything (by naturally I mean not macro botting).
Specializing, I wont be at a disadvantage if I only trained up Archery an melee while another guy has magic, archery and melee.
I've already tested this out I kill people just as much as I die as an archer with decent melee skills for oh shit situations.
Anyway last time I checked it does take quite some time to skill in everything, this is not something you could do in a couple months believe me. Actually I dont think we have any players in game that naturally skilled everything (by naturally I mean not macro botting).
I think you touched on what I was implying with my "easily circumvented" comment. I mean, in EvE, you can train learning skills and get implants, but otherwise, you're not going to accelerate training really. These are in game mechanics meant to 'naturally' assist in training as quickly as possible. One of the main gripes (posted on these forums at least) is the ability to "cheat the system" and I think that is where the idea that someone could max out across the board comes from.
Regardless, this is diverging a bit from the topic of sandbox or not and I think just about every argument that could be made has been made on that topic :P. The sandbox crowd will decide with their wallets and ultimately, if it meets each players personal standards then for them I suppose it's a sandbox. For me, I think it's done better by CCP, but I'll keep my eye on this as I think things are moving in the right direction.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
Why level them up? Why not level them up? You're still giving yourself a combat advantage over your opponent and so, in the long run, the only real way to play the game is to level up everything, as you would not be able to compete otherwise.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
Why level them up? Why not level them up? You're still giving yourself a combat advantage over your opponent and so, in the long run, the only real way to play the game is to level up everything, as you would not be able to compete otherwise.
Welcome to MMORPG's , in MMORPG'sthere is skill and char progression, if you level up skills on your char you become better at them over time.
You are wrong on that part about "not able to compete". Some masters in archery will tell you otherwise and of course is not to expect that you mastered anything in Darkfall.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Comments
I agree with that part above.
Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:
What is the point?
Boredom and frustration
Week 3 - you called it, bored..
As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion".
Should be an interesting time for DarkFall. Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.
I agree with that part above.
Some recent posts on the Official Forums that would seem to agree with that conclusion as well:
What is the point?
Boredom and frustration
Week 3 - you called it, bored..
As is always the case with DarkFall though... there may be help coming with the October "expansion".
Should be an interesting time for DarkFall. Transfers and the "expansion" are due this month; how they are both implemented and the impact they have should give a glimpse of how DarkFall's future will shake out.
Maybe its you making such posts on official forums just to link them here after.
Serious, prior to official boards beeing customer only i dont consider them troll free. Forum poster are always the whiney, bitching and moaning folks, the mass of players don't bother posting they spending time on playing it, that is on every games official forum.
About the point being made i said it already, Sandbox gives you freedom, freeedom requires responsibility on your side to make goals and make decisions and even reward yourself. If you can't manage responsibilty or lack intrinsic motivation get you a game in which developers think for you and you just do what they tell you to do, thats what i suggest to those people who feel bored.
In themepark games players get bored if they reach "endgame" - they beat the last opponent, they reached highest level, they got the best item as reward. Those themeparks produce more people being bored then any sandbox will do, showing that the argument used here against sandbox games must be flawed in the root. Themepark games have the boring factor built-in so to speak: "what to do after i got max level ? what to do ..there is no quest anymore.." etc..
(btw being bored is a feeling either and a feeling is a weakness for weaklings lol )
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I know a few players who do not have combat skills but have most if not all gathering and crafter skills. They are not forced to have combat skills. Hell, I escorted one from one city to another to use our shipyard. They didn't want to use a runestone for whatever reason.
Yep, your forced to do combat skills. Not.
Exactly. FFA PVP is what you make of it, to a large extent. It is a harsher world. Being a harsher world does not make it less of a sandbox in itself. It makes it different, and maybe not what you want, but it is still a sandbox and is still a decently designed, if poorly run, game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.
If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.
WoW = Open-ish world with a few things to do.
Therefore, WoW = Sandbox.
BUT, Darkfall =/= Sandbox, so WoW =/= Sandbox.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
You really don't get it, do you? It's simple enough.
If Darkfall = Sandbox, then sandbox = open-ish world with a few things to do.
WoW = Open-ish world with a few things to do.
Therefore, WoW = Sandbox.
BUT, Darkfall =/= Sandbox, so WoW =/= Sandbox.
There is no logic in that statement.
Your misunderstanding what is meant by open world. WoW's world is set in stone, there is nothing you can do to alter it whatsoever. What they mean by sandbox is the game developers provide an area in which to play and what you choose to do in that area is up to you, you can mold it, destroy it, create it. Most importantly there is no limits beyond the physical limits of the universe which you inhabit. If you want to build something, you can, if you want to destroy something, you can, if you want to kill something, you can, if you want too....see?
Darkfall isn't a true sandbox, but it is pretty close and could be called sandbox-ish, more so than games like WoW which are pretty linear in many ways. This is why people make the distinction between themeparks and sanboxes. Themeparks are made and you play in them, you play their game, play their classes, level within their restrictions and limits..sandboxes allow you to play your own game and build that "themepark" (i.e the physical world) yourself and play your character your way.
There are much better sandbox games out right now, but im not going to mention them as i don't want the WoW game-wrecking-train to roll into them, QQ to the gods, then tear them to pieces.
Sandbox games are a lot of fun, but there is a large population of modern mmo gamers who seem to be unable to appreciate them for what they are. If they don't have 10,000 quests and hold their hands, tell them how to play, tell them how to spec, tell them exactly how to take down that big boss and effectively wipe their asses from start to finish, they can't seem to deal with it.
Imagine in WoW if you could kill the NPC's who annoy you, if a player sasses you in a newbie zone, you don't have to take it, you could simply attack them and let your blades do the talking. Gold sellers? Wouldn't you LOVE to just walk up to them and rip their heads off? REAL risk vs REAL reward? This is what sandbox games should be all about, your actions have consequences, but not game-engine pre-determined actions, real players dealing out real retibution.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
And, from what I can tell, Darkfall has next to none of that, except the "YOU CAN MURDER" bit.
Check out my signature, and you'll see what I classify as a sandbox game.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
To op " all the sand "
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
Its very simple actually. In a MMO were you can play without doing quests...then its a sandbox MMO. If you need to do quests its a themepark.
When you first login to DF for the very first time, you can do whatever you want anywere you want.
When you first login to WoW, you need to do quests. The whole game is built around the concept that you do quests. And keep doing them.
That's an awful definition. I can just grind in WoW to level 80. Hell, I could leave the starting zone and grind on mobs a few levels higher than me. OH MY GOD, it's such an open and sandbox game.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
You horribly misinformed. You block any valuable information that could help you.
"In my initial foray into the world of Darkfall, it was readily apparent that my character was never on rails. Not once did I feel like I was being directed to a location."
Ten Ton Hammer
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
Wow, now that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Quoting off Ten Ton Hammer, of all things.
Ten Ton Hammer are a pretty good source of Info. They have kick ass articles I see no reason why the guy shouldn't quote them.
Clearly DF is a sandbox, its just more sandbox lite due to features the game has yet to impliment.
That's ok though not every sandbox /open ended mmo need to be the same copy of one another like themepark games.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Dawnsinger you have been given the reasons why DF is sandbox now stop trolling already.
You are ridiculous if you propagate this fantasy of yours that DF is not a sandbox.
Yea those haters are ridicolous, Darkfall is not sandbox, darkfall is still vapor , whats next these sycophantic dishonest haters will claim? lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.
@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.
@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.
@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
A MMORPG is a sandbox if objective indicators can be attested.
- a seamless non instanced world
- unlimited access to game content not hindered through classes, player levels, quest chains and quest requirements
- cyclic repeatable processes and content instead of linear progression.
If all of that apply then we face a sandbox ..
lets apply that for a test :
UO - pass = sandbox
SWG pre CU - pass = sandbox
Ryzom - pass = sandbox
Darkfall - pass = sandbox
Guild wars - fail = not sandbox
WoW - fail = not sandbox
These definition seems covers pretty much what sandbox is and what not and Darkfall is a sandbox.
@Down : during periods of witch-hunting wrong ridicolous criteria and definitions have been used to valify persons. Same tactic you use here against Darkfall, reconnaissance helped in case of witch-hunting maybe it helps here too.
lets make the opposite test and apply you ridicolous indicator of what not sandbox is :
-FFA full loot PvP is not sandbox aka "uhm i got attacked everywhere like the small whiny carebear i am i start to difame the game on forums instead to take it like a man and simply accept the ruleset."
UO - pass = would make it not a sandbox ..oh wait.. UO is a sandbox
Mortal Online - pass = would make it not a sandbox - oh wait so many people wrongly believe to wait for sandbox ?
resulting in your criteria is faulty
@all who think sandbox is a subjective feeling / everyone has his own definition
you would agree to the point that there is a difference in gameplay in the various MMORPG games and seems a lot of people "feel" the same about exact same games. That can't be coincidence..
There MUST be a different type of MMORPG's and because of a lot of people agree on that and even mostly on the games that belong to that type and the other games belong to other type these difference must be a difference basing on objective criteria's. its not true that everyone can make up if his game is sandbox or not. Its eiher a MMORPG meets the criteria and then it is a sanbox or it isn't. The "degree" of sandbox may be open to subjective judgement but the type if sandbox or not is bound to objective criteria.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Considering TTH's reviews are actually written by the company themselves ( a lot of reviews are written by "anonymous" people and sent in ), it really isn't.
@Zymurgeist: That's setting the standards of sandbox rather low, then, since nearly EVERY MMO can be counted as sandbox with that ( optional quests, etc ). Hell, even Aion, with it's traintrack grindyness, could be counted as a sandbox.
@tenspotting: Who's posting alt are you, then? No one's given me a reason it's a sandbox, only a list of features that equate to a massive UT domination map.
@Darth: Man, try making posts that aren't about Darkfall being the subject of persecution, and then we'll talk, instead of just me laughing at you.
IN Aion can you make your character anyway you want? Can u design it to cover a bunch of different roles? In Aion you follow a class system its pretty locked in with minimal flexibility.
IN DF I could sit around and be a crafter all day if I wanted to. Maybe a Archer that can throw some Aoe magic at enemies and more.
A sandbox or Open ended game is labeled as such through the flexability of the character progression system it has in place.
Now let me ask you, In Darkfall can I create a custom character? it really is that simple.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.
@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
In Darkfall, you can't. In Darkfall, the end result will always be the same. Every character will have 99.9 in every skill. It really is that simple.
@Darth: And once again you miss the point of what I posted. Stop making a fool of yourself. =/
But in a way that does allow the ultimate in freedom. I am for a skill cap and like the idea of being a specialist but thats not DF. You can do anything you want. You are correct everyone ends up the same but doesnt mean everyone plays the same. In a true class system you have some that are better than others and have better reaction times but in the end they all play the same. DF is flawed in many ways but it is for all intents and purpose a sandbox but how much sand it has is up for debate.
im sorry but someone like me will never be all 99.9 in everything. Some of us just dont play enough and honestly most of use will skill in shit that helps us improve our character in our own playstyle.
I dont even like casting in DF so I've basically just used archery and Melee and im fine with that. Every fucking troll on this forum tells people everyone is the same and thats just bullshit.
Honestly why level up archery skills if you hate using a bow? why bother with magic if you like archery? Why would I waste my time raising every stupid freaking skill if I dont intend to do everything?
The game gives me the freedom to do what I want, If i wanna specialize I can, If I want to be everything I could do that also that is freedom.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Very well said.
I play just the same as you. Love a little melee, and love me some bow.
Maybe people just need to switch games if they become bored of one. How much time can you honestly enjoy out of one game.
They all eventually become tired.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Just a "devil's advocate", but if everyone can grind to 99.9 skill or max out everything, then are you specializing or handicapping?
edit: just to expand a little, I think a skill decay system or a significant time sink that is not easily circumvented would really contribute to the idea of specializing. Sure, a game like EvE allows you to train all skills to max, but there is a significant barrier to reaching max skill based on the time required. As a result, specialization is the norm.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Just a "devil's advocate", but if everyone can grind to 99.9 skill or max out everything, then are you specializing or handicapping?
edit: just to expand a little, I think a skill decay system or a significant time sink that is not easily circumvented would really contribute to the idea of specializing. Sure, a game like EvE allows you to train all skills to max, but there is a significant barrier to reaching max skill based on the time required. As a result, specialization is the norm.
Specializing, I wont be at a disadvantage if I only trained up Archery an melee while another guy has magic, archery and melee.
I've already tested this out I kill people just as much as I die as an archer with decent melee skills for oh shit situations.
Anyway last time I checked it does take quite some time to skill in everything, this is not something you could do in a couple months believe me. Actually I dont think we have any players in game that naturally skilled everything (by naturally I mean not macro botting).
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I think you touched on what I was implying with my "easily circumvented" comment. I mean, in EvE, you can train learning skills and get implants, but otherwise, you're not going to accelerate training really. These are in game mechanics meant to 'naturally' assist in training as quickly as possible. One of the main gripes (posted on these forums at least) is the ability to "cheat the system" and I think that is where the idea that someone could max out across the board comes from.
Regardless, this is diverging a bit from the topic of sandbox or not and I think just about every argument that could be made has been made on that topic :P. The sandbox crowd will decide with their wallets and ultimately, if it meets each players personal standards then for them I suppose it's a sandbox. For me, I think it's done better by CCP, but I'll keep my eye on this as I think things are moving in the right direction.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Why level them up? Why not level them up? You're still giving yourself a combat advantage over your opponent and so, in the long run, the only real way to play the game is to level up everything, as you would not be able to compete otherwise.
http://www.havenandhearth.com
The Best New Sandbox Game Out There.
Why level them up? Why not level them up? You're still giving yourself a combat advantage over your opponent and so, in the long run, the only real way to play the game is to level up everything, as you would not be able to compete otherwise.
Welcome to MMORPG's , in MMORPG'sthere is skill and char progression, if you level up skills on your char you become better at them over time.
You are wrong on that part about "not able to compete". Some masters in archery will tell you otherwise and of course is not to expect that you mastered anything in Darkfall.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)