As per Thillian's utopia of a "100% pure player-made everything": sorry, it will never happen. Why? Because there is just simply a need for infinite, easy to access source for items. (Vendors). Imagine if there were no vendors.... Just to give an example, say, all the scrap steel that is used ingame would be only accessible by scavenging or manufactured from coal+scrap iron. I can see the situation, like this: DB
You obviously haven't leave S1, nor checked the near-pvp zones in S1. You can gather 50 scrap steel within 10 minutes if you know where to look. I'm sure I'm not the only one - scrap steel gatherers would compete with each other on AH and sell it for a reasonable price. Now? It's impossible, because everyone can buy scrap steel for 33 chips almost everywhere. (not player driven economy -> demand has nothing to do with supply here, because SUPPLY IS INFINITE - Vendors supply scrap steel in infinite amount and for extremlye cheap 33 chips)
You surely didn't see S2 yet. All faction towns have vendors that sell everything to be found in S1 and S2 (in S3, vendors sell everything to be found in S3, S2) And they sell it for less than AH.
I would like to interject on the player driven economy.
Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books.
FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him.
I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
So once again let me clarify one thing. EVERY MMO that has an AH, does have player-based economy. It is simple as that. If you can buy and sell between players, the prices will be driven be the same factors: supply - demand - availabilty (etc.). This, sooner or later prices will balance, and fluctuate based on the future trends in the game.
You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
I would like to interject on the player driven economy. Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books. FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him. I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed.
So once again let me clarify one thing. EVERY MMO that has an AH, does have player-based economy. It is simple as that. If you can buy and sell between players, the prices will be driven be the same factors: supply - demand - availabilty (etc.). This, sooner or later prices will balance, and fluctuate based on the future trends in the game.
You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
We might be getting somewhere there.
Yes, in FE there is still probably too much vendor supply. This is why I said, that there is no real player based economy yet (check back, i did start with this!) -
BUT, there is already influence. You can sell some mats in the AH at a higher price than the vendor price, because of hard accessibility of given material/vendor. That is clearly players influencing the economy. Might not be dominant now, but it will definitely get stronger.
Also, as I described, there is clearly a reason for having vendors when a game launches - otherwise it would just be bottleneck that is too risky when the game is just launching.
So, in conclusion: player influence on economy is there in FE already, albeit not strong yet, I agree. This is why I also said: we shall see how this develops in the future. Higher tear rawmats should either not be accessible, or be LESS accessible, or be very expensive from vendors. Hopefully devs will agree and act. Balancing is no child's play, and influence on economy is a tricky thing, ingame or IRL (heard about a world economy crisis recently? precisely the same reasons: lack of or too much direct influence on assets and curreny/loans..)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
So once again let me clarify one thing. EVERY MMO that has an AH, does have player-based economy. It is simple as that. If you can buy and sell between players, the prices will be driven be the same factors: supply - demand - availabilty (etc.). This, sooner or later prices will balance, and fluctuate based on the future trends in the game.
You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
We might be getting somewhere there.
Yes, in FE there is still probably too much vendor supply. This is why I said, that there is no real player based economy yet (check back, i did start with this!) -
BUT, there is already influence. You can sell some mats in the AH at a higher price than the vendor price, because of hard accessibility of given material/vendor. That is clearly players influencing the economy. Might not be dominant now, but it will definitely get stronger.
Also, as I described, there is clearly a reason for having vendors when a game launches - otherwise it would just be bottleneck that is too risky when the game is just launching.
So, in conclusion: player influence on economy is there in FE already, albeit not strong yet, I agree. This is why I also said: we shall see how this develops in the future. Higher tear rawmats should either not be accessible, or be LESS accessible, or be very expensive from vendors. Hopefully devs will agree and act. Balancing is no child's play, and influence on economy is a tricky thing, ingame or IRL (heard about a world economy crisis recently? precisely the same reasons: lack of or too much direct influence on assets and curreny/loans..)
DB
You're right. If they want a player driven economy, they need to remove mats from the vendors. However, right now the prices of all items are heavily influenced by Dev pricing and the players really have no control at all over the pricing. As time goes on, items will fall more and more towards the Dev price and there really won't be much player choice or profit.
The bottom line is that this economy is not player driven at all. The WoW economy is far more player driven than this one is.
I would like to interject on the player driven economy. Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books. FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him. I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed.
I know, I think it's more player driven (or, I guess I say could be) because of the extent of crafting. At the same time, the devs will need to remove the vendor mats to see the market really pan out.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
I would like to interject on the player driven economy. Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books. FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him. I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. NOT true. I can sell an item that only has components purely gathered by myself, at a lower price than the one it would cost from vendor-sourced mats. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually. But it's not true! Read my earlier comments! AH prices extend vendor prices already in many cases. Economy is a lot more complicated than price only.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. Again, already not true, and will change in the future even further. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed. Completey wrong. Price is determined by demand and accessibility. If what you're saying would be true, cars would cost less than a quarter what they cost now (IRL).
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I would like to interject on the player driven economy. Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books. FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him. I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. NOT true. I can sell an item that only has components purely gathered by myself, at a lower price than the one it would cost from vendor-sourced mats. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually. But it's not true! Read my earlier comments! AH prices extend vendor prices already in many cases. Economy is a lot more complicated than price only.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. Again, already not true, and will change in the future even further. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed. Completey wrong. Price is determined by demand and accessibility. If what you're saying would be true, cars would cost less than a quarter what they cost now (IRL).
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
DB
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
DB
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
It's not player driven. The prices are capped by vendor prices but yoiu can make chips by undercutting the vendors and it's easy to do especially with things higher up the crafting chain or in sector one. There's also money to be made transporting some raw materials to sector three. If you're selling things above the vendor prices it's because the people buying them are being silly. Since there's nothing to spend chips on except materials or crafted items amassing them is largely pointless. It's an economy. It's not player driven. It does work well with the current state of the game. That's about all that can be said for it.
I never said else. All I said that it *could* be player driven in the future, but before vendor items disappear or get exponentially more expensive, there needs to be some heavy balancing (e.g. of nodes), and much time (to see where the game is going).
Also, there are already signs and trends influencing player supply and demand - of course it's too early tell. All MMO's need 4-8 months at least to have an even remotely balanced player economy. Of course, if changes are implemented with vendors in the future, it will kick the bucket over again. BUT - with no vendor items - the game would simply not work today.
Tough stuff, but at least devs something to work on
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
It's not a sandbox. It's not a player driven economy. It has linear progression. It has a lack of player driven content.
It's a skill based theme park MMO that some people enjoy.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
It's not a sandbox. It's not a player driven economy. It has linear progression. It has a lack of player driven content.
It's a skill based theme park MMO that some people enjoy.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
It's not a sandbox. It's not a player driven economy. It has linear progression. It has a lack of player driven content.
It's a skill based theme park MMO that some people enjoy.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
Crafting. You can do every type of it in FE. In all the above games, you are limited to a few of them.
Anyways, we can always argue back and forth, but so far you had no arguments backing up that FE would be linear. It is not, you just don't like the game, that's all. No shame in that
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
It's not a sandbox. It's not a player driven economy. It has linear progression. It has a lack of player driven content.
It's a skill based theme park MMO that some people enjoy.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
Crafting. You can do every type of it in FE. In all the above games, you are limited to a few of them.
Anyways, we can always argue back and forth, but so far you had no arguments backing up that FE would be linear. It is not, you just don't like the game, that's all. No shame in that
DB
You can do every type of crafting in those other MMOs using alts. And people do.
This game has linear quest hubs that take you from one end of the zone to the other. You move through sector 1. Then sector 2. Then sector 3. I get the feeling you've never actually played a sandbox like EVE, but Fallen Earth is just another linear MMO experience where you move from one ride to the next.
You can do every type of crafting in those other MMOs using alts. And people do. LOL, that is your best argument? Of course, with enough alts you can do EVERYTHING in EVERY game... what does it have to do with linear gameplay?? You are really desperate aren't you? This game has linear quest hubs that take you from one end of the zone to the other. Nope. You can start in 4 different towns, and you are free to wonder and do any quests between them, any time. You don't even need to quest if you don't want to. You move through sector 1. Then sector 2. Then sector 3. Yes, if you want to. You can move directly to Sector 3, but you will be ganked. What happens if you go to directly a low sec system in EVE? What happens if you run out of a town in Ryzom? Yes, you get ganked. Are those freeform games? Sure they are. No point here, sorry. I get the feeling you've never actually played a sandbox like EVE, (pretty wrong I did. And it's just as freeform as FE, no more. You got STATS that you increase there... and quests, that are optional. I see no difference in basic gameplay. What's more, I played RYZOM too but Fallen Earth is just another linear MMO experience where you move from one ride to the next. Only if you choose to... proven above. BTW, name me 1 single game where you can go ANYWHERE in the game area when you are low level, with no threat of being ganked by mobs. Just one please. Really.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left".
Thanks, bye
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
You can do every type of crafting in those other MMOs using alts. And people do. LOL, that is your best argument? Of course, with enough alts you can do EVERYTHING in EVERY game... what does it have to do with linear gameplay?? You are really desperate aren't you? This game has linear quest hubs that take you from one end of the zone to the other. Nope. You can start in 4 different towns, and you are free to wonder and do any quests between them, any time. You don't even need to quest if you don't want to. You move through sector 1. Then sector 2. Then sector 3. You can move directly to Sector 3, but you will be ganked. What happens if you go to directly a low sec system in EVE? What happens if you run out of a town in Ryzom? Yes, you get ganked. Are those freeform games? Sure they are. No point here, sorry. I get the feeling you've never actually played a sandbox like EVE, (pretty wrong I did. And it's just as freeform as FE, no more. You got STATS that you increase there... and quests, that are optional. I see no difference in basic gameplay. What's more, I played RYZOM too but Fallen Earth is just another linear MMO experience where you move from one ride to the next. Only if you choose to... proven above.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left".
Thanks, bye
DB
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left". Thanks, bye DB
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
No, and I never said it is. Did I?
Your "point" you are trying to use when "proving" that FE's gameplay is not linear, is true in exactly the same way for EVE as for FE. Sorry, you kicked yourself in the balls with this one
Again:
BTW, name me 1 single game where you can go ANYWHERE in the game area when you are low level, with no threat of being ganked by mobs. Just one please. Really.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left". Thanks, bye DB
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
No, and I never said it is. Did I?
Your "point" you are trying to use when "proving" that FE's gameplay is not linear, is true in exacttly the same way for EVE then for FE. Sorry, you kicked yourself in the balls with this one
DB
Well, I'm not trying to prove anything about FE being linear. I played it to level 19 and it was linear. I suppose I could have gone off the beaten path to grind mobs, but you can do that in any game. This game offers nothing new. It is a theme park. Some people enjoy it. It is not anywhere near being a sandbox. The end.
"Sandbox" in many people's mind must equal to: "no development".
Development of a character needs to be visible. There need to be places/areas where you cannot go, as the mob are too tough and will kill you. You need to feel your character developing. Be it skills, traits, XP, levels, gear - technicality. It does not matter which way, but development needs to be and made to be felt.
Some people equate progressive gameplay (essence of all RPG's, but also true for FPS/RTS, basically for every types of games) with linearity.
Truth is, you cannot have everything at the beginning. Nobody would be interested in such a game. Simple as that.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
"BTW, name me 1 single game where you can go ANYWHERE in the game area when you are low level, with no threat of being ganked by mobs. Just one please. Really."
I would, except in Fallen Earth it is not possible to go ANYWHERE and not be "ganked" by mobs.
If you mean, can someone stay on a road and get to higher level areas where they can get nothing done, most of those games offer that.
Comments
You obviously haven't leave S1, nor checked the near-pvp zones in S1. You can gather 50 scrap steel within 10 minutes if you know where to look. I'm sure I'm not the only one - scrap steel gatherers would compete with each other on AH and sell it for a reasonable price. Now? It's impossible, because everyone can buy scrap steel for 33 chips almost everywhere. (not player driven economy -> demand has nothing to do with supply here, because SUPPLY IS INFINITE - Vendors supply scrap steel in infinite amount and for extremlye cheap 33 chips)
You surely didn't see S2 yet. All faction towns have vendors that sell everything to be found in S1 and S2 (in S3, vendors sell everything to be found in S3, S2) And they sell it for less than AH.
REALITY CHECK
I would like to interject on the player driven economy.
Thillian, if you want a game where 100% of everything has always and will always be player made it will never happen. The closest thing is EVE, and even in it they had vendors that sold ammo and other select items. To this day they have vendors that sell skill books.
FE does have a player driven economy (I'm sure my definition is far different from your own), by this I mean that the best gear is crafted. Sure you can loot stuff, but by far, when you go and buy gear, you will buy the bulk of it from a player, and they may have bought their mats from another players. After you buy that gear you may buy a repair kit from a player. Or ammo. Either way, even with vendors, most of what you buy (94% of items in-game you can craft) will have been created by players funding a supply chain that goes back to the guy harvesting. Unless the same guy who crafts it does all of the harvesting... them you just fund him.
I actually think, like EVE, these vendors MAY go away after a while.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
REALITY CHECK
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed.
You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
We might be getting somewhere there.
Yes, in FE there is still probably too much vendor supply. This is why I said, that there is no real player based economy yet (check back, i did start with this!) -
BUT, there is already influence. You can sell some mats in the AH at a higher price than the vendor price, because of hard accessibility of given material/vendor. That is clearly players influencing the economy. Might not be dominant now, but it will definitely get stronger.
Also, as I described, there is clearly a reason for having vendors when a game launches - otherwise it would just be bottleneck that is too risky when the game is just launching.
So, in conclusion: player influence on economy is there in FE already, albeit not strong yet, I agree. This is why I also said: we shall see how this develops in the future. Higher tear rawmats should either not be accessible, or be LESS accessible, or be very expensive from vendors. Hopefully devs will agree and act. Balancing is no child's play, and influence on economy is a tricky thing, ingame or IRL (heard about a world economy crisis recently?
precisely the same reasons: lack of or too much direct influence on assets and curreny/loans..)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Thillian and Colddog are absolutly right imo.
For those who never played a player driven economy, check some mmo's like Ryzom.
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Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
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You buried your whole argumentation here. Yes economy is driven by demand and supply obviously. Player driven economy would mean -> there's player demand and player supply.
In FE -> supply is represented by vendors with fixed and very cheap prices. No matter what demand is, there're still vendors that will sell cheaply and have an infinite supply.
In S2 and S3 faction towns, the question of looking for that sort of vendor that only sells it, disappears. Vendors in faction towns sell everything to be found in that sector. There's not a single town with an auction hall and not vendors for everything. Clearly, that's not a player driven economy.
We might be getting somewhere there.
Yes, in FE there is still probably too much vendor supply. This is why I said, that there is no real player based economy yet (check back, i did start with this!) -
BUT, there is already influence. You can sell some mats in the AH at a higher price than the vendor price, because of hard accessibility of given material/vendor. That is clearly players influencing the economy. Might not be dominant now, but it will definitely get stronger.
Also, as I described, there is clearly a reason for having vendors when a game launches - otherwise it would just be bottleneck that is too risky when the game is just launching.
So, in conclusion: player influence on economy is there in FE already, albeit not strong yet, I agree. This is why I also said: we shall see how this develops in the future. Higher tear rawmats should either not be accessible, or be LESS accessible, or be very expensive from vendors. Hopefully devs will agree and act. Balancing is no child's play, and influence on economy is a tricky thing, ingame or IRL (heard about a world economy crisis recently?
precisely the same reasons: lack of or too much direct influence on assets and curreny/loans..)
DB
You're right. If they want a player driven economy, they need to remove mats from the vendors. However, right now the prices of all items are heavily influenced by Dev pricing and the players really have no control at all over the pricing. As time goes on, items will fall more and more towards the Dev price and there really won't be much player choice or profit.
The bottom line is that this economy is not player driven at all. The WoW economy is far more player driven than this one is.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed.
I know, I think it's more player driven (or, I guess I say could be) because of the extent of crafting. At the same time, the devs will need to remove the vendor mats to see the market really pan out.
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Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
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== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
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Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
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Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. NOT true. I can sell an item that only has components purely gathered by myself, at a lower price than the one it would cost from vendor-sourced mats. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually. But it's not true! Read my earlier comments! AH prices extend vendor prices already in many cases. Economy is a lot more complicated than price only.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. Again, already not true, and will change in the future even further. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed. Completey wrong. Price is determined by demand and accessibility. If what you're saying would be true, cars would cost less than a quarter what they cost now (IRL).
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
No, the difference is that the items that are crafted, are crafted using vendor sold components. So every item made essentially has a minimum price set by the Devs and not the players. NOT true. I can sell an item that only has components purely gathered by myself, at a lower price than the one it would cost from vendor-sourced mats. Also, when mats are sold on the auction house, it would only be logical that their price go down to the vendor price or below eventually. But it's not true! Read my earlier comments! AH prices extend vendor prices already in many cases. Economy is a lot more complicated than price only.
The Devs have set the price and this system is truly not player-driven at all. Again, already not true, and will change in the future even further. When every item is made up of components you can buy from a vendor, it is price fixing. The market is not natural. It is fixed. Completey wrong. Price is determined by demand and accessibility. If what you're saying would be true, cars would cost less than a quarter what they cost now (IRL).
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
DB
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
Anyway, it's getting off topic.
It's not a sandbox. It's not a player driven economy. It has linear progression. It has a lack of player driven content.
It's a skill based theme park MMO that some people enjoy.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
You really need to understand what economy is, and only then post things
It's not player driven. The prices are capped by vendor prices but yoiu can make chips by undercutting the vendors and it's easy to do especially with things higher up the crafting chain or in sector one. There's also money to be made transporting some raw materials to sector three. If you're selling things above the vendor prices it's because the people buying them are being silly. Since there's nothing to spend chips on except materials or crafted items amassing them is largely pointless. It's an economy. It's not player driven. It does work well with the current state of the game. That's about all that can be said for it.
I never said else. All I said that it *could* be player driven in the future, but before vendor items disappear or get exponentially more expensive, there needs to be some heavy balancing (e.g. of nodes), and much time (to see where the game is going).
Also, there are already signs and trends influencing player supply and demand - of course it's too early tell. All MMO's need 4-8 months at least to have an even remotely balanced player economy. Of course, if changes are implemented with vendors in the future, it will kick the bucket over again. BUT - with no vendor items - the game would simply not work today.
Tough stuff, but at least devs something to work on
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
Crafting. You can do every type of it in FE. In all the above games, you are limited to a few of them.
Anyways, we can always argue back and forth, but so far you had no arguments backing up that FE would be linear. It is not, you just don't like the game, that's all. No shame in that
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
As earlier, i partially agree on the first one, and fully on the last one, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "linear progression".
The game is not a sandbox, but it has freeform elements already... atleast a lot more than most other games, sadly .(
DB
What other game?
WOW, Lotro, AION, EQ2, Vanguard, AOC, GW.... I haven't played too many more, but these are all much more rail-bound games than FE. Fixed class systems, for being most obvious.
DB
The skill system might be the only thing that you can point to in this game that is different than those others. Name one other thing that is more freeform.
Crafting. You can do every type of it in FE. In all the above games, you are limited to a few of them.
Anyways, we can always argue back and forth, but so far you had no arguments backing up that FE would be linear. It is not, you just don't like the game, that's all. No shame in that
DB
You can do every type of crafting in those other MMOs using alts. And people do.
This game has linear quest hubs that take you from one end of the zone to the other. You move through sector 1. Then sector 2. Then sector 3. I get the feeling you've never actually played a sandbox like EVE, but Fallen Earth is just another linear MMO experience where you move from one ride to the next.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left".
Thanks, bye
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Well, I take it as "I have no more arguments left".
Thanks, bye
DB
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
No, and I never said it is. Did I?
Your "point" you are trying to use when "proving" that FE's gameplay is not linear, is true in exactly the same way for EVE as for FE. Sorry, you kicked yourself in the balls with this one
Again:
BTW, name me 1 single game where you can go ANYWHERE in the game area when you are low level, with no threat of being ganked by mobs. Just one please. Really.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Not a sandbox
Wow. You just don't get it. You think FE is as freeform as EVE.
No, and I never said it is. Did I?
Your "point" you are trying to use when "proving" that FE's gameplay is not linear, is true in exacttly the same way for EVE then for FE. Sorry, you kicked yourself in the balls with this one
DB
Well, I'm not trying to prove anything about FE being linear. I played it to level 19 and it was linear. I suppose I could have gone off the beaten path to grind mobs, but you can do that in any game. This game offers nothing new. It is a theme park. Some people enjoy it. It is not anywhere near being a sandbox. The end.
"Sandbox" in many people's mind must equal to: "no development".
Development of a character needs to be visible. There need to be places/areas where you cannot go, as the mob are too tough and will kill you. You need to feel your character developing. Be it skills, traits, XP, levels, gear - technicality. It does not matter which way, but development needs to be and made to be felt.
Some people equate progressive gameplay (essence of all RPG's, but also true for FPS/RTS, basically for every types of games) with linearity.
Truth is, you cannot have everything at the beginning. Nobody would be interested in such a game. Simple as that.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Donnie Quote:
"BTW, name me 1 single game where you can go ANYWHERE in the game area when you are low level, with no threat of being ganked by mobs. Just one please. Really."
I would, except in Fallen Earth it is not possible to go ANYWHERE and not be "ganked" by mobs.
If you mean, can someone stay on a road and get to higher level areas where they can get nothing done, most of those games offer that.