This is totally irrellevant to the OP, but I can't help but reply. You said that Vanguard has more restrictive classes than FE. However, what you don't recognize is that Vanguard offers many classes, which covers almost every playstyle. In FE, you assign AP and call what you've come up with a build. There's only so many viable builds in FE, that you can make, and still be able to successfully play the game. Those builds, could be renamed classes, and you'd have less than Vanguard offers. So regardless if Vanguard pigeon holes you into classes, Vanguard still offers more variety of playstyles than FE does.
Ok, I highlighted the 2 things in your text that classify the compulsive achiever gamer mindset, who can only imagine to have everything "maxed out". Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand that, and by no means would I say any kind of playing is better or worse - the point is, having alts in a game will in NO way make a single 1 character more freeform, if it has 1 or 2 restricted classes.
It is like saying: EVE crafting/mining is soo freeform, and offline skill learning is soo cool, I wish we had it in a fantasy game. Your reply above means would say: we can't, but for that, you can play WOW
Hope you get my point...
DB
Nonsense, nonsense. You said you played Vanguard but this post of yours doesn't show that.
In Vanguard you put points you get every 25% of your level to your attributes. Even as a sorcerer, you can max out your strength and try to melee things. Want to compare the amount of builds this way? You can gimp yourself in Vanguard just like you can in FE. We're talking about playable builds and combinations.
I only played VG for the first month, as it was completely void of players.... I just listed it as it's a game with fixed classes.
Can any class wear all kinds of armor, use every item in game, and learn every type of spell in VG (given it has the required attributes?)
DB
Edit: BTW: you will never understand me, as "gimped" is not even a term I comprehend. I did and would never care about my skill setup in WOW, never cared much about traits in LOTRO, and never planned my skills to learn in EVE. I do what I feel like to in a game, and this is why FE is nice for me at the moment.
As I said before, I have no issues for those looking for the "ultimate build" in every game - it's their fun. I'm just happy that there are still games where that's totally not necessary for having fun.
I don't care about the ultimate build either. What anyone who plays a game should care about is being effective ENOUGH to play the game. Gimp is when you are not effective enough to kill things you should be able to kill.
Just so we can prove that FE is not a sandbox, not a hybrid, but a full fledge Theme park mmorpg like WoW and LotRO.
For starters.. If you remove the level progression (1 to 45) and give rewards like AP over experience for level progression. Now do we have a FE Full blown sandbox in FE? Do we need players to build cities to confirm this has sandbox elements? I know as of right now, you cannot buy vehicles like motorcycles, dune buggies, and interceptors in the game in which they need to be crafted by players. And what about the upcoming camps / homes or gun turrets that need to be made by players.
Anyways this game reminds me of Anarchy Online and that too was a old debate about AO being a sort of Sandbox type mmo as well. (AO hase a huge world to explore, complexity in the gameplay a deep storyline and you can build your own cities). I believe if anything that can be built by players or destroyed by players in a persisent gameworld, classifys some sort of sandbox type element. But this is strictly my opinion as well.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Actually, all the classes tend to wear different armor in Vanguard. In FE, everyone, no matter what build they are, wears the best armor with the best stats. Everyone in FE can use everything, but since 99% is less than optimal, you find everyone wearing the EXACT same thing in the endgame. Itemization is absolutely horrible in FE. It's one of the major drawbacks IMO.
And everyone has an OPTION to learn every "spell" in FE. But once they chose to go with a build, they are not going to learn ALL of the "spells". Just like a druid is not going to learn a spell that a sorcerer does.
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
Just so we can prove that FE is not a sandbox, not a hybrid, but a full fledge Theme park mmorpg like WoW and LotRO.
For starters.. If you remove the level progression (1 to 45) and give rewards like AP over experience for level progression. Now do we have a FE Full blown sandbox in FE? Do we need players to build cities to confirm this has sandbox elements? I know as of right now, you cannot buy vehicles like motorcycles, dune buggies, and interceptors in the game in which they need to be crafted by players. And what about the upcoming camps / homes or gun turrets that need to be made by players.
Anyways this game reminds me of Anarchy Online and that too was a old debate about AO being a sort of Sandbox type mmo as well. (AO hase a huge world to explore, complexity in the gameplay a deep storyline and you can build your own cities). I believe if anything that can be built by players or destroyed by players in a persisent gameworld, classifys some sort of sandbox type element. But this is strictly my opinion as well.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
Just so we can prove that FE is not a sandbox, not a hybrid, but a full fledge Theme park mmorpg like WoW and LotRO.
For starters.. If you remove the level progression (1 to 45) and give rewards like AP over experience for level progression. Now do we have a FE Full blown sandbox in FE? Do we need players to build cities to confirm this has sandbox elements? I know as of right now, you cannot buy vehicles like motorcycles, dune buggies, and interceptors in the game in which they need to be crafted by players. And what about the upcoming camps / homes or gun turrets that need to be made by players.
Anyways this game reminds me of Anarchy Online and that too was a old debate about AO being a sort of Sandbox type mmo as well. (AO hase a huge world to explore, complexity in the gameplay a deep storyline and you can build your own cities). I believe if anything that can be built by players or destroyed by players in a persisent gameworld, classifys some sort of sandbox type element. But this is strictly my opinion as well.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies can all be made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
there fixed for ya
The following statement is false The previous statement is true
Your argument wasn't distorted, It was a couple of times, last one from you was saying I compared VG in terms of gameplay to FE, which I never did., a because you said no argument yet. Very mature... And no, saying everything in FE is optional (Distort #2: I never said that) or that you can sell things on auction so its player driven economy (selling things in auction IS player-driven economy, be strong...it's just not true for the whole game yet.) is not an argument. Fact is, S2, S3 faction towns have vendors that sell 95% of all the stuff you need to gather. (This is why it's only partially player-driven yet, and I have agreed on this many times. Maybe read my posts for a change.) Their price does not meet player demand and is fixed. (no, it's not. Only if everyone would always use the vendor for everything, and would not even gather. Argument is flawed.)Hence, there is no player driven economy. The economy as a whole is not, but there is already player influence. 95% of the supply is not taking demand into any sort of consideration. That's a guess, that might and might not be true. Fact is if you skip missions, you miss out 30% of your character progression (I heard that it's 20%, if you mean AP, but see my other comment on that) .So it's like Lotro with cap level 60, where you could only grind up to level 42, and the rest you had to quest because grinding wouldnt give you any XP at all. (ok, getting out of arguments, so need to bring up other games, got it. No, in Lotro you needed to kill anything between 200-350 of same level mobs per level to grind. Of course, it was boring. Nobody argues that LOTRO is a questers game though, so not sure what the point is. Saying its optional is ridiculous. Ridiculous, or not, it's true. It's not an argument. Nope, it's a fact, you're right. Because obviously, everything is optional everywhere. And that is exactly the point of every game! Optional to play, and optional to do everything or nothing. IF you feel compelled/obliged to have all the AP, it's your choice to quest grind. it's a question of mindset. Re-read your post again when you listed a couple of games being more linear than FE which included Vanguard.
Again, I only said VG has restricted classes, while FE has freeform class build.. maybe this time you get it Never mentioned gameplay comparison.
DB
wow, you managed to contradict yourself again in the same post.
You never said everything in FE is optional, yet your last sentence said "And that is exactly the point of every game! Optional to play, and optional to do everything or nothing" Yes, and it IS true on the basic level. However, I have also said, that character development IS essential. I kind of assumed everyone gets it.... sorry. We were discussing the ways/methods of advancement here, as well as gamepley-
It is optional to level up in Lotro, you can stay level 1 and run around naked in Bree as I previously told you. Everything is optional everywhere. So if someone criticizes FE that getting AP's from missions makes it mission driven is valid. To tell him that "well its optional" is not a valid counter-argument. It's not argument at all. No, the option is to decide, which way you wish to progress. Missions/grind/crafting/skill learning.... what else is there? How do you advance in a true sandbox? Is there one? Yes, that's was mind point in an earlier post: there are only so many ways to progress in any game. In your definition an MMo would not set ANY predefined ways for advancement, is that what you are saying? How would that be possible? It really fascinates me. Nice try with LOTRO on derailing the topic, but won't work, sorry
When I compared the AP mission with Lotro. With AP missions you get 1180 APs, without around 820. Which means you lose these 30% from your power. In lotro, let's say cap level is 60. (1180 AP). You could only reach level 42 (820 AP) by grinding and the remaining 18 levels (360 AP) you only could get by questing. So it would force you if you want to enjoy the content you paid for to do quests, just like FE forces you to do missions - hence - character progression is MISSION INFLUENCED AS WELL. (fixed it for you Totally flawed, as usual. In Lotro, you only advance through XP. In FE XP = AP, plus the AP you get from missions. I said a million times, will say it again, know you won't get it, but still: you DO NOT need all the AP in FE to play. You ONLY need it, when you feel you would be gimped otherwise. That's in the mindset, again. You can level your toon in FE to cap with no missions, that's the main flaw here.
And I'm not even touching the future level cap extension..... a true sandbox should never put a barrier on character development, would you agree? So no skill/level caps, and no AP caps are designed. Which means, missions can be totally left out, since there will ultimately be no longerm level cap Oh well, bad news for the rush-to-max-to-gank-in-PVP kids its bad news
You didn't say its not player driven economy. In fact, from the very early posts of yours you kept saying it is player based and I can quote you many times. Then when you realized, that the supply does not meet the demand in the game (because supply is infinite - represented by fixed vendors with fixed prices), it means its obviously not player driven, you suddently changed it to "partially player driven"
Ok, then please go and check back my very first comment in this topic. Got it? Now think again.
Yeah, I said exactly: player driven economy is NOT THERE YET.
Please stop your dirty tricks of influencing non-commenting readers of this topic, this is a low I will not go down to
Or you might simply try reading other people's comments.
These insertions are just there for you to think. Now at least it's clear and obvious that you are a liar, and therefore will not comment on any of your posts in the future.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Just so we can prove that FE is not a sandbox, not a hybrid, but a full fledge Theme park mmorpg like WoW and LotRO.
For starters.. If you remove the level progression (1 to 45) and give rewards like AP over experience for level progression. Now do we have a FE Full blown sandbox in FE? Do we need players to build cities to confirm this has sandbox elements? I know as of right now, you cannot buy vehicles like motorcycles, dune buggies, and interceptors in the game in which they need to be crafted by players. And what about the upcoming camps / homes or gun turrets that need to be made by players.
Anyways this game reminds me of Anarchy Online and that too was a old debate about AO being a sort of Sandbox type mmo as well. (AO hase a huge world to explore, complexity in the gameplay a deep storyline and you can build your own cities). I believe if anything that can be built by players or destroyed by players in a persisent gameworld, classifys some sort of sandbox type element. But this is strictly my opinion as well.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
I understand what you're saying. But as time goes on and more and more people are crafting at a high level, prices will come down. The vendor mat prices will be very similar to what the price for something will be. The vendor price is the eventual price ceiling. Since people can harvest mats, the price will actually end up going lower than that price ceiling over time. But eventually it should never be over the dev price.
Perhaps there are less problems right now 1 month after release, but as this develops, price ceilings will become more and more noticeable.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
Actually, all the classes tend to wear different armor in Vanguard. In FE, everyone, no matter what build they are, wears the best armor with the best stats. Everyone in FE can use everything, but since 99% is less than optimal, you find everyone wearing the EXACT same thing in the endgame. Itemization is absolutely horrible in FE. It's one of the major drawbacks IMO.
And everyone has an OPTION to learn every "spell" in FE. But once they chose to go with a build, they are not going to learn ALL of the "spells". Just like a druid is not going to learn a spell that a sorcerer does.
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
We both know, that this has nothing to do with the FACT that VG (as most themepark games lol) have class-bound armors. Even at low level.
But again, we both know if you can't argue, you can only admit or bring up another topic. Yet again
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Actually, all the classes tend to wear different armor in Vanguard. In FE, everyone, no matter what build they are, wears the best armor with the best stats. Everyone in FE can use everything, but since 99% is less than optimal, you find everyone wearing the EXACT same thing in the endgame. Itemization is absolutely horrible in FE. It's one of the major drawbacks IMO.
And everyone has an OPTION to learn every "spell" in FE. But once they chose to go with a build, they are not going to learn ALL of the "spells". Just like a druid is not going to learn a spell that a sorcerer does.
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
We both know, that this has nothing to do with the FACT that VG (as most themepark games lol) have class-bound armors. Even at low level.
But again, we both know if you can't argue, you can only admit or bring up another topic. Yet again
Even sandbox games have quests. This is obviously a hybrid with the way the skill progression is, the way the non-linearity of quest options and level options, the are much more expansive then themepark games as you have a choice to take a countless amount of different roads to reach an end.
Most skill based sand box games are in the same avenue of linearity as any theme park level progression. To truly make something non level based isn't to take away levels, but to take away any progression at all and base any actual world progression on player skill. It seems to me that when you start at 1 and you end at 60 thats considered linearity... you do that in sandbox games to, so while we're defining the two genre's lets just get one thing straight. Theme Park. Sandbox. hardly anyone can tell the difference anymore. If its fun, play it.
qft
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
*edit*
I will say, however, that I would also like to see mats removed from vendors. But then the prices would sky rocket for a while. Maybe the devs are just seeding the economy to get it boosted at first, which isn't neccasarily a bad thing.
We both know, that this has nothing to do with the FACT that VG (as most themepark games lol) have class-bound armors. Even at low level. But again, we both know if you can't argue, you can only admit or bring up another topic. Yet again DB
FE has "class-bound" armor too, it's called Armor Use. If you do not pump enough AP into Coordination, Endurance and your Armor Use skill, then you are not able to wear all the armor that exists. It's basically the same mechanic, just a different spin.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand.
Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy.
Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
I think what someone is getting at is that FE's economy is flawed because it doesn't have balance. A balanced economy allows the entire community to contribute the way they see fit and make near equal amounts of money.
Balanced Game = Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods > Sold to Crafters who create products > That those who harvest materials and/or sell Looted Goods buy > to continue to provide Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods.
In FE there isn't any forced player dependency. A person can harvest and craft everything on one character if they so chose to, cutting out the Harvesters and Loot-based professions (player created) out of this process. So those who only harvest, are poorer than crafters. Those who craft, are richer than anyone else, because they can harvest their own stuff, or buy it materials from vendors, and then sell their goods for profit. Players who are Loot-based participants in the economy will not have any loot to sell in this game, forcing them to harvest to make any kind of money, or craft if they want to make the most amount of money.
In my opinion, FE"s system is flawed and is the main reason I left the game. I do not enjoy crafting, and I seldom enjoy harvesting. In SWG, harvesting was fun, because it was something I could do while hunting. I harvested bones, meat, fur and etc off the animals I killed, and sold it to crafters to afford upgrades. I had a role in the economy, and I wasn't forced to harvest nodes or craft items to make it anywhere in the game.
FE doesn't fully support the adventurer. An adventurer should be able to find everything he needs in dungeons and in the world, without really having to depend on other players for a whole hell of a lot. He should be able to sell his loot to players who do not wish to adventure, but instead prefers to take up profession in the city or elsewhere that doesn't involve adventuring. Crafters should be so busy crafting, that they don't have time to harvest. Crafters should be in competition with Adventurers for selling wares. Crafters sell wares they create, whereas Adventurers sell wares they find. Crafters would have a better selection, would rely on Harvesters/Gatherers, but wouldn't have their lives risked when creating their goods. It all balances out, something that doesn't happen in FE. In FE, the Adventurer is screwed, because he must also be a Harvester/Gatherer and/or a Crafter if he wishes to survive in the world.
What we have here is a huge lack of choice on how to participate in the game, giving FE one more reason why it's not a sandbox game.
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand.
Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy.
Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand. Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy. Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
What is wrong with you? You gave an absurd argumentation and when someone else give an actual theoretical point of view coming from an actual economical theory, all you say is that "you have your opinion and I have mine". You reason that you will be able to set any price for your time which is nonsense unless you'd have a monopoly. If you overprice your time, someone else will sell it for less.
Fact is, with vendor driven material prices not dependant on the demand, the price for crafted items based on vendor material will settle down to a price a bit above the material costs. And it can't happen any other way. This is a theory. Economy is deformed by artifical interference from vendors that have fixed price I repeat that.
I repeat, Player driven economy requires all steps in the production process to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players. This is not an opinion or some kind of subjective definition, this is the way it is.
I think what someone is getting at is that FE's economy is flawed because it doesn't have balance. A balanced economy allows the entire community to contribute the way they see fit and make near equal amounts of money. Balanced Game = Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods > Sold to Crafters who create products > That those who harvest materials and/or sell Looted Goods buy > to continue to provide Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods. In FE there isn't any forced player dependency. A person can harvest and craft everything on one character if they so chose to, cutting out the Harvesters and Loot-based professions (player created) out of this process. So those who only harvest, are poorer than crafters. Those who craft, are richer than anyone else, because they can harvest their own stuff, or buy it materials from vendors, and then sell their goods for profit. Players who are Loot-based participants in the economy will not have any loot to sell in this game, forcing them to harvest to make any kind of money, or craft if they want to make the most amount of money. In my opinion, FE"s system is flawed and is the main reason I left the game. I do not enjoy crafting, and I seldom enjoy harvesting. In SWG, harvesting was fun, because it was something I could do while hunting. I harvested bones, meat, fur and etc off the animals I killed, and sold it to crafters to afford upgrades. I had a role in the economy, and I wasn't forced to harvest nodes or craft items to make it anywhere in the game. FE doesn't fully support the adventurer. An adventurer should be able to find everything he needs in dungeons and in the world, without really having to depend on other players for a whole hell of a lot. He should be able to sell his loot to players who do not wish to adventure, but instead prefers to take up profession in the city or elsewhere that doesn't involve adventuring. Crafters should be so busy crafting, that they don't have time to harvest. Crafters should be in competition with Adventurers for selling wares. Crafters sell wares they create, whereas Adventurers sell wares they find. Crafters would have a better selection, would rely on Harvesters/Gatherers, but wouldn't have their lives risked when creating their goods. It all balances out, something that doesn't happen in FE. In FE, the Adventurer is screwed, because he must also be a Harvester/Gatherer and/or a Crafter if he wishes to survive in the world. What we have here is a huge lack of choice on how to participate in the game, giving FE one more reason why it's not a sandbox game.
No economy is balanced, ask any economics prof. and he'll tell you that is an impossiblilty. With greed, supply, demand, etc. there is no way for a perfectly balanced economy to exist where everyone can profit equally.
Seems like the problem some people have with the economy is that by FE having vendors that sell mats it puts a cap on what the avg harvester/scavenger can charge for their goods. Basically if a scrap fastener can be bought for 30 chips from a vendor then a scavenger can only reasonably charge around the 30 chip range for his fastener. This is not a bad thing, imo. It prevents price gouging for basic materials so the scavanger can't charge 10000 chips for his fastener. The scavanger will still turn a profit whether it's as much as he wants or not. Calling the economy flawed just means you're upset because you can't charge any ungodly amount you choose for scavenged/harvested/mined goods. The economy isn't flawed just controlled. Welcome to gov't regulation in the apoc.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand. Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy. Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
What is wrong with you? You gave an absurd argumentation and when someone else give an actual theoretical point of view coming from an actual economical theory, all you say is that "you have your opinion and I have mine". You reason that you will be able to set any price for your time which is nonsense unless you'd have a monopoly. If you overprice your time, someone else will sell it for less.
Fact is, with vendor driven material prices not dependant on the demand, the price for crafted items based on vendor material will settle down to a price a bit above the material costs. And it can't happen any other way. This is a theory. Economy is deformed by artifical interference from vendors that have fixed price I repeat that.
I repeat, Player driven economy requires all steps in the production process to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players. This is not an opinion or some kind of subjective definition, this is the way it is.
I have not read the whole thread so I have a question for you. Can you buy all mats from the vendor for items made in this game? If yes then what is to keep the average joe from buying the mats himself and asking some one to make the item for him?
Nothing, average Joe can do that easily. The only thing is that it takes some time to craft something. 10 minutes to make a rifle, 15-20mins for an armor. Vehicles takes hours, some days. During that time, the crafter can't do anything else.
The only variable thing is the time factor -> how much people are asking for their time. Which as I said will settle down considerably after some time. The prices are driven and limited by the vendor prices. In every game out there, is some sort of an economical freedom - here's the time. FE has as strong player driven economy as wow, lotro, ... and I wouldn't be afraid to say even less because in these games, you can't even buy the material needed to craft something from vendors.
Economy is very standard here and I would never bother to call FE in any way special.
Nothing, average Joe can do that easily. The only thing is that it takes some time to craft something. 10 minutes to make a rifle, 15-20mins for an armor. Vehicles takes hours, some days. During that time, the crafter can't do anything else. The only variable thing is the time factor -> how much people are asking for their time. Which as I said will settle down considerably after some time. The prices are driven and limited by the vendor prices. In every game out there, is some sort of an economical freedom - here's the time. FE has as strong player driven economy as wow, lotro, ... and I wouldn't be afraid to say even less because in these games, you can't even buy the material needed to craft something from vendors. Economy is very standard here and I would never bother to call FE in any way special.
I have to say that would put a damper on crafting for me. I'm playing Aion right now and crafting is pretty good in this game to my surprise. I wonder if we will ever see a crafting system like SWG again which I miss dearly.
Comments
Ok, I highlighted the 2 things in your text that classify the compulsive achiever gamer mindset, who can only imagine to have everything "maxed out". Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand that, and by no means would I say any kind of playing is better or worse - the point is, having alts in a game will in NO way make a single 1 character more freeform, if it has 1 or 2 restricted classes.
It is like saying: EVE crafting/mining is soo freeform, and offline skill learning is soo cool, I wish we had it in a fantasy game. Your reply above means would say: we can't, but for that, you can play WOW
Hope you get my point...
DB
Nonsense, nonsense. You said you played Vanguard but this post of yours doesn't show that.
In Vanguard you put points you get every 25% of your level to your attributes. Even as a sorcerer, you can max out your strength and try to melee things. Want to compare the amount of builds this way? You can gimp yourself in Vanguard just like you can in FE. We're talking about playable builds and combinations.
I only played VG for the first month, as it was completely void of players.... I just listed it as it's a game with fixed classes.
Can any class wear all kinds of armor, use every item in game, and learn every type of spell in VG (given it has the required attributes?)
DB
Edit: BTW: you will never understand me, as "gimped" is not even a term I comprehend. I did and would never care about my skill setup in WOW, never cared much about traits in LOTRO, and never planned my skills to learn in EVE. I do what I feel like to in a game, and this is why FE is nice for me at the moment.
As I said before, I have no issues for those looking for the "ultimate build" in every game - it's their fun. I'm just happy that there are still games where that's totally not necessary for having fun.
I don't care about the ultimate build either. What anyone who plays a game should care about is being effective ENOUGH to play the game. Gimp is when you are not effective enough to kill things you should be able to kill.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies can all be made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
there fixed for ya
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
Again, I only said VG has restricted classes, while FE has freeform class build.. maybe this time you get it
Never mentioned gameplay comparison.
DB
wow, you managed to contradict yourself again in the same post.
You never said everything in FE is optional, yet your last sentence said "And that is exactly the point of every game! Optional to play, and optional to do everything or nothing" Yes, and it IS true on the basic level. However, I have also said, that character development IS essential. I kind of assumed everyone gets it.... sorry. We were discussing the ways/methods of advancement here, as well as gamepley-
It is optional to level up in Lotro, you can stay level 1 and run around naked in Bree as I previously told you. Everything is optional everywhere. So if someone criticizes FE that getting AP's from missions makes it mission driven is valid. To tell him that "well its optional" is not a valid counter-argument. It's not argument at all. No, the option is to decide, which way you wish to progress. Missions/grind/crafting/skill learning.... what else is there? How do you advance in a true sandbox? Is there one? Yes, that's was mind point in an earlier post: there are only so many ways to progress in any game. In your definition an MMo would not set ANY predefined ways for advancement, is that what you are saying? How would that be possible? It really fascinates me. Nice try with LOTRO on derailing the topic, but won't work, sorry
When I compared the AP mission with Lotro. With AP missions you get 1180 APs, without around 820. Which means you lose these 30% from your power. In lotro, let's say cap level is 60. (1180 AP). You could only reach level 42 (820 AP) by grinding and the remaining 18 levels (360 AP) you only could get by questing. So it would force you if you want to enjoy the content you paid for to do quests, just like FE forces you to do missions - hence - character progression is MISSION INFLUENCED AS WELL. (fixed it for you
Totally flawed, as usual. In Lotro, you only advance through XP. In FE XP = AP, plus the AP you get from missions. I said a million times, will say it again, know you won't get it, but still: you DO NOT need all the AP in FE to play. You ONLY need it, when you feel you would be gimped otherwise. That's in the mindset, again. You can level your toon in FE to cap with no missions, that's the main flaw here.
And I'm not even touching the future level cap extension..... a true sandbox should never put a barrier on character development, would you agree? So no skill/level caps, and no AP caps are designed. Which means, missions can be totally left out, since there will ultimately be no longerm level cap
Oh well, bad news for the rush-to-max-to-gank-in-PVP kids its bad news 
You didn't say its not player driven economy. In fact, from the very early posts of yours you kept saying it is player based and I can quote you many times. Then when you realized, that the supply does not meet the demand in the game (because supply is infinite - represented by fixed vendors with fixed prices), it means its obviously not player driven, you suddently changed it to "partially player driven"
Ok, then please go and check back my very first comment in this topic. Got it? Now think again.
Yeah, I said exactly: player driven economy is NOT THERE YET.
Please stop your dirty tricks of influencing non-commenting readers of this topic, this is a low I will not go down to
Or you might simply try reading other people's comments.
These insertions are just there for you to think. Now at least it's clear and obvious that you are a liar, and therefore will not comment on any of your posts in the future.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Those vehicles, motorcycles and dune buggies are all made with vendor mats. That is why it is not a player driven economy.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
I understand what you're saying. But as time goes on and more and more people are crafting at a high level, prices will come down. The vendor mat prices will be very similar to what the price for something will be. The vendor price is the eventual price ceiling. Since people can harvest mats, the price will actually end up going lower than that price ceiling over time. But eventually it should never be over the dev price.
Perhaps there are less problems right now 1 month after release, but as this develops, price ceilings will become more and more noticeable.
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
REALITY CHECK
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
We both know, that this has nothing to do with the FACT that VG (as most themepark games lol) have class-bound armors. Even at low level.
But again, we both know if you can't argue, you can only admit or bring up another topic. Yet again
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Well, I could wear level 90 armor, but so far I am still wearing a level 45 one, with worse stats, because better armor gimps my coordination, which is an important skill. Still, it is MY decision , and not the game saying "samurai-only", for that armor.
I think we were discussing freedom here....
DB
Yeah... you can do that in every other theme park MMO ever made.
"I don't like the way my armor looks. I'm going to wear something worse and underperform because there is not enough blue coloring on that piece of armor. And I want to look BLUE!!"
Yes, in almost every MMO, you can do this. It does not equal freedom. And it's just so silly to think that it does.
We both know, that this has nothing to do with the FACT that VG (as most themepark games lol) have class-bound armors. Even at low level.
But again, we both know if you can't argue, you can only admit or bring up another topic. Yet again
DB
wut
qft
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
Time=money, and it takes a long time to build those higher end vehicles. A lot of people aren't going to have the patience or correct skills to make them. And if they want those vehicles, they are going to have to bite the bullet and pay what ever the hell the crafter puts them up on the AH for. Sure a crafter can buy mats from a merchant or AH, but they can also scavenge them to increase profits. Besides not every merchant sells every mat at every town. There is a convenience factor as well. To dismiss the economy as completely not player driven is incorrect. You seem to be looking at the whole thing from just one angle.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
*edit*
I will say, however, that I would also like to see mats removed from vendors. But then the prices would sky rocket for a while. Maybe the devs are just seeding the economy to get it boosted at first, which isn't neccasarily a bad thing.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
FE has "class-bound" armor too, it's called Armor Use. If you do not pump enough AP into Coordination, Endurance and your Armor Use skill, then you are not able to wear all the armor that exists. It's basically the same mechanic, just a different spin.
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
REALITY CHECK
Rail ride.
FE don't have enough tools to be considered a sandbox.
FE is too CPU intensive for how it looks. Performance is not up to par to what a decent FPS game needs.
SHOHADAKU
This is simply not true. Again, your definition doesn't mean anything. Every game out there has a player driven economy with your definition. Every game out there has certain items you need to craft or gather and then sell.
Player driven economy is like a free trade economy with no barriers no state interferences. In FE -> You've got supply of items obtainable from vendors that have an infinite supply and fixed price no matter what the demand is.
Yes, all that is required to have player driven economy in this game, is to remove the vendors. Let gatherers set their prices based on the availability and the demand.
And yes, every town in S2 and S3 that has an auction hall, also have all vendors selling most of the material.
I dont think you quite understood what I said. When something takes weeks to build,..that has the tendency to effect price, which is based off of effort and time. The fact that the mats can be bought from a merchant doesn't mean squat. It's NOT like other mmos, except for maybe EVE, where crafting a low level dagger takes about the same amount of time as a high level sword of 1000 truths. It's the time factor you are not wrapping your mind around. And like I said," time=money " which is not a term I coined so I'm sure a lot of real businessmen well tell you that the definition actually DOES mean something. So I guess you think crafters are not going to have more money than non-crafters? And if you agree with me on this, I hope you realize that the crafters made that money from time+effort. Hell even people that argue for the value of raids and the loot that comes from them well tell you it's because of time+effort. The key word there is "time".
What are you talking about? I was not neglecting the fact that crafters will be able to sell their final products. I said the game has not player driven economy. The reasons are above, just re-read what I said.
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand.
Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy.
Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
REALITY CHECK
I think what someone is getting at is that FE's economy is flawed because it doesn't have balance. A balanced economy allows the entire community to contribute the way they see fit and make near equal amounts of money.
Balanced Game = Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods > Sold to Crafters who create products > That those who harvest materials and/or sell Looted Goods buy > to continue to provide Harvested Materials and/or Looted Goods.
In FE there isn't any forced player dependency. A person can harvest and craft everything on one character if they so chose to, cutting out the Harvesters and Loot-based professions (player created) out of this process. So those who only harvest, are poorer than crafters. Those who craft, are richer than anyone else, because they can harvest their own stuff, or buy it materials from vendors, and then sell their goods for profit. Players who are Loot-based participants in the economy will not have any loot to sell in this game, forcing them to harvest to make any kind of money, or craft if they want to make the most amount of money.
In my opinion, FE"s system is flawed and is the main reason I left the game. I do not enjoy crafting, and I seldom enjoy harvesting. In SWG, harvesting was fun, because it was something I could do while hunting. I harvested bones, meat, fur and etc off the animals I killed, and sold it to crafters to afford upgrades. I had a role in the economy, and I wasn't forced to harvest nodes or craft items to make it anywhere in the game.
FE doesn't fully support the adventurer. An adventurer should be able to find everything he needs in dungeons and in the world, without really having to depend on other players for a whole hell of a lot. He should be able to sell his loot to players who do not wish to adventure, but instead prefers to take up profession in the city or elsewhere that doesn't involve adventuring. Crafters should be so busy crafting, that they don't have time to harvest. Crafters should be in competition with Adventurers for selling wares. Crafters sell wares they create, whereas Adventurers sell wares they find. Crafters would have a better selection, would rely on Harvesters/Gatherers, but wouldn't have their lives risked when creating their goods. It all balances out, something that doesn't happen in FE. In FE, the Adventurer is screwed, because he must also be a Harvester/Gatherer and/or a Crafter if he wishes to survive in the world.
What we have here is a huge lack of choice on how to participate in the game, giving FE one more reason why it's not a sandbox game.
We aren't talking about IF a crafter can sell their products. But the fact that they can set the price to whatever they want, irregardless of what mat can be bought a vendor. That sounds like player driven to me. If the crafters are setting prices for their time and effort, and thats not player driven, then what the hell is? By your definition, no game has a player driven economy.
Why don't you just read this whole thread. The answers are there. Gatherers can't set their prices. Prices for mats to craft something are vendor driven with infinite supply. Economy is screwed by the fixed vendor prices that does NOT change based on the demand.
Prices of the vehicle are also affected by the vendor prices for material that is required to build them. If you have at least bits of economic knowledge you should know that.
Having vendors with fixed prices is like a huge interference from the state to the free trade economy.
Player driven economy requires all steps in the production to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I don't think it's a sandbox. It's just a standard (almost AAA quality when they fix it) MMORPG with a twist.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
What is wrong with you? You gave an absurd argumentation and when someone else give an actual theoretical point of view coming from an actual economical theory, all you say is that "you have your opinion and I have mine". You reason that you will be able to set any price for your time which is nonsense unless you'd have a monopoly. If you overprice your time, someone else will sell it for less.
Fact is, with vendor driven material prices not dependant on the demand, the price for crafted items based on vendor material will settle down to a price a bit above the material costs. And it can't happen any other way. This is a theory. Economy is deformed by artifical interference from vendors that have fixed price I repeat that.
I repeat, Player driven economy requires all steps in the production process to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players. This is not an opinion or some kind of subjective definition, this is the way it is.
REALITY CHECK
No economy is balanced, ask any economics prof. and he'll tell you that is an impossiblilty. With greed, supply, demand, etc. there is no way for a perfectly balanced economy to exist where everyone can profit equally.
Seems like the problem some people have with the economy is that by FE having vendors that sell mats it puts a cap on what the avg harvester/scavenger can charge for their goods. Basically if a scrap fastener can be bought for 30 chips from a vendor then a scavenger can only reasonably charge around the 30 chip range for his fastener. This is not a bad thing, imo. It prevents price gouging for basic materials so the scavanger can't charge 10000 chips for his fastener. The scavanger will still turn a profit whether it's as much as he wants or not. Calling the economy flawed just means you're upset because you can't charge any ungodly amount you choose for scavenged/harvested/mined goods. The economy isn't flawed just controlled. Welcome to gov't regulation in the apoc.
I see that you are hell bent on your definition of player driven economy. I can't convince you other ways the same as you can't convince me. Oh well. Good luck in finding your version of player driven economy.
What is wrong with you? You gave an absurd argumentation and when someone else give an actual theoretical point of view coming from an actual economical theory, all you say is that "you have your opinion and I have mine". You reason that you will be able to set any price for your time which is nonsense unless you'd have a monopoly. If you overprice your time, someone else will sell it for less.
Fact is, with vendor driven material prices not dependant on the demand, the price for crafted items based on vendor material will settle down to a price a bit above the material costs. And it can't happen any other way. This is a theory. Economy is deformed by artifical interference from vendors that have fixed price I repeat that.
I repeat, Player driven economy requires all steps in the production process to be obtainable by either harvesting it by yourself or by interacting/trading with other players. This is not an opinion or some kind of subjective definition, this is the way it is.
I have not read the whole thread so I have a question for you. Can you buy all mats from the vendor for items made in this game? If yes then what is to keep the average joe from buying the mats himself and asking some one to make the item for him?
Nothing, average Joe can do that easily. The only thing is that it takes some time to craft something. 10 minutes to make a rifle, 15-20mins for an armor. Vehicles takes hours, some days. During that time, the crafter can't do anything else.
The only variable thing is the time factor -> how much people are asking for their time. Which as I said will settle down considerably after some time. The prices are driven and limited by the vendor prices. In every game out there, is some sort of an economical freedom - here's the time. FE has as strong player driven economy as wow, lotro, ... and I wouldn't be afraid to say even less because in these games, you can't even buy the material needed to craft something from vendors.
Economy is very standard here and I would never bother to call FE in any way special.
REALITY CHECK
I have to say that would put a damper on crafting for me. I'm playing Aion right now and crafting is pretty good in this game to my surprise. I wonder if we will ever see a crafting system like SWG again which I miss dearly.