Honestly, while a more realistic looking kraken with sheen effects and everything would probably "look nicer" I can't imagine anything being more legit terrifying than being in the ocean and then suddenly seeing jagged toothy tentacles flailing about wildly in the air quickly moving towards you. The spasticness of it, for me, just makes it even more unnerving.
More Sandboxy. (more things for non-combaters to do)
And Darkfall will be the best game ever produced.
EVER.
I have to say, its starting to look more like the devs back in the development days. Back, when they really knew what a MMO was. If their plan all along was to do what I said above, which I'm starting to think it has been, and they just did PVP as a starter to get people to give them money to produce more..... then they are brilliant.
You give me the PVE of WoW (more epic bosses is what I mean... like this), combined with the death penalty they already have, combined with good reasons to PVP, combined with a sandbox.... and I think I'll just have to quit the MMORPG genre and play Darkfall. How could you improve on that?
-----------------
How long did it take for them to make this latest patch?
So all you have is a talk about language? ... Yes, I edited it but before you put your post in (so I went back in time, change it to look like a typo and came back just to read your post?) - I guess my spelling was wrong after all though. Thanks for correcting me. Any more mistakes I made?
I would say getting in an extended flame war with people more intelligent than you was a mistake.
More stuff like that. Make magic and melee more balanced. More Sandboxy. (more things for non-combaters to do)
And Darkfall will be the best game ever produced. EVER. I have to say, its starting to look more like the devs back in the development days. Back, when they really knew what a MMO was. If their plan all along was to do what I said above, which I'm starting to think it has been, and they just did PVP as a starter to get people to give them money to produce more..... then they are brilliant.
You give me the PVE of WoW, combined with the death penalty they already have, combined with good reasons to PVP, combined with a sandbox.... and I think I'll just have to quit the MMORPG genre and play Darkfall. How could you improve on that?
----------------- How long did it take for them to make this latest patch?
Well they released a "expansion" right before the NA server was put online (i think). So i guess since then.
The most recent expansion adds a lot to the game.
Imo Darkfall needs pve to be very good if they want more people playing.
If the devs in that game can get people to come due to the pve features alone then they finally made a perfect sandbox game. It already has great combat and reasons to pvp all day, it has great crafting and recently they added in trading to the game.
Once guilds are formed in darkfall just to pve then darkfall will finally be at the level of some of the other sandbox games that have come before them (UO,Swg,Eve).
Even as a complete hater of this game you can't deny that darkfall is improving and you have more options in the game now than you did at launch.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
Interesting trend lately, focusing on water, there'll be underwater gameplay with Cataclysm, this expansion gave a lot of love for the sea in DF (and holy ****, that's some awesome love with the villages, forts and the kraken), GW2 will feature underwater gameplay, Aion is promissing underwater gameplay, and probably more that I don't know about, just mentioned the titles I'm watching.
Good to see new trends that bring more to MMO gamers.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
Well obviously the community would be one. in a FFA pvp game you can't really avoid pvp. So the pve guys will need to fight and im sure the pvp guys wont just let them clear dungeons, quest and kill crazy big world bosses without a fight.
This wont be like a game like WoW with Arena guys on one side and raiders on another.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
Well obviously the community would be one. in a FFA pvp game you can't really avoid pvp. So the pve guys will need to fight and im sure the pvp guys wont just let them clear dungeons, quest and kill crazy big world bosses without a fight.
This wont be like a game like WoW with Arena guys on one side and raiders on another.
My comment's point was a simple question how is this boss anything AWESOME! if all it is is his size and that it swims. If you ask me that is a setback in MMO genre, which could be copied in other MMO (which would be horrific), since people from other games come here and drool bout it. The thing has no AI, in its core it is just s simplistic set of pixels that are bigger than we are used to.
Let me try find an analogy - modern movies. They have no depth, they are just an empty shells without soul that rely on big motherfucking explosions. The bigger the better ...
You see, I was criticising this "WOW IT IS SO BIG I THINK I JUST CAME" ... ok, it is a sea monster and it is simplistic - but don't drool over it as if it was something awesome. It is cool ... but far from awesome.
But one of the posters made a valid claim - this is just a monster that can interrupt a sea battle. At that point I would suggest tornados as well. This can be fun. But that was it is not awesome either. It is a nice adition to PVP making it harder. Ok, but awesome in my book would be randomly spawned ghost fleet that would simply attack everything. This is awesome. Kraken is cool.
1st : I do not play WoW (as stated before) My comment's point was a simple question how is this boss anything AWESOME! if all it is is his size and that it swims. If you ask me that is a setback in MMO genre, which could be copied in other MMO (which would be horrific), since people from other games come here and drool bout it. The thing has no AI, in its core it is just s simplistic set of pixels that are bigger than we are used to.
Let me try find an analogy - modern movies. They have no depth, they are just an empty shells without soul that rely on big motherfucking explosions. The bigger the better ... You see, I was criticising this "WOW IT IS SO BIG I THINK I JUST CAME" ... ok, it is a sea monster and it is simplistic - but don't drool over it as if it was something awesome. It is cool ... but far from awesome. But one of the posters made a valid claim - this is just a monster that can interrupt a sea battle. At that point I would suggest tornados as well. This can be fun.
Haven't you drawn this out quite enough now?
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
Hmmm let me see, Most awesome NPC in an MMORPG [CHECK] fanboi check: [PASS] Most awesome sea battle in an MMORPG [CHECK] fanboi check: [PASS] Most awesome expansion in an MMORPG [CHECK] fanboi check: [PASS]
Actually I'm a RABID fanbois, thankyou very much :P
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I think theres room for both, this boss is just a numbers game get a few ships together with every 1 on board just spamming a range attack and down it goes, no skills required, where as scripted bosses standing in a dungeon requires skills, placement, awareness and every one working together.
Dude, seriously, are you fucking joking? You have to be joking... you really can't be this dumb.
Lol, he is not dumb he is the self appointed Blizzard delegate to flame anything a game does that may be construed as a threat to WOW subscriptions.
rofl darkfall is a threat no games numbers.
Doesnt matter. The key word is "construed". In other words, Blizz didnt do it so its not good. You know what i meant and so does Coffee.
Hey did I mention blizzard or WoW?, what in my statement is not true, the kraken is a numbers game, you don't need to worry about tank switching, aggro, abilities, timers as you do in many other MMO's... just spam a range attack until its dead (the more people the better), its not a snipe at DFO (ive never played it) but thats the facts... does not mean DFO is inferia to WoW or any other MMO just that this particular boss is a numbers/range spam affair and thats it and that is I have commented on.
Don't get me wrong I am sure it would be an epic affair if you truley were not expexting it but all times after that will just be "meh", as it is for all game bosses.
Some how declaring DFO as the greatest MMO of all time ( as some are ) simply because the krakens A.I consits of trying to match the X & Y position of it target while spamming some auto attack is funny at best and somthing from the 1980's.
I could go on about the poor animation, empty world, crappy effects etc but I wont as DFO is a low budget MMO and these are to be expected however there are no excuses for cheap boss fights, as some have said it could of had some abilities like trying to turn over the ship but I does not.
Here I just scripted the krakens attack A.I to show how hard it was for AV to add the boss.
I still challenge you to link an ingame video of a what you believe to be a cooler boss fight, I'd be interested to compare it to the Kraken vid to see with my own eyes exactly what you mean.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
@Coffee, I still challenge you to link an ingame video of a what you believe to be a cooler boss fight, I'd be interested to compare it to the Kraken vid to see with my own eyes exactly what you mean.
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
@Coffee, I still challenge you to link an ingame video of a what you believe to be a cooler boss fight, I'd be interested to compare it to the Kraken vid to see with my own eyes exactly what you mean.
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
The point?
To up your post count by +1.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
I don't see why people require amazing AI in bosses.
Sorry, not every game is WoW where you require a 3rd grade diploma to be able to not stand in the fire(and 90% of their playerbase still fails at it), the krakken is just meant to be awesome, not some hard pve boss.
Can someone please explain me how is that cool? Not trolling or anything I just don't see how this can be cool. No tactic, no nothing just a classic tank and spank I thought we were over in 90's. Again this is not a troll attempt
Actually, I agree. The monster itself looks damned cool, but the combat will get old really fast.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
@Coffee, I still challenge you to link an ingame video of a what you believe to be a cooler boss fight, I'd be interested to compare it to the Kraken vid to see with my own eyes exactly what you mean.
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
The point is that I'm very interested in seeing what it is you're talking about, if you've got some vids why not link them? The point isn't to get me to say "Yes that boss looks cooler then the Kraken" the point is for you to say "I think this is cooler/better than the Kraken". I can't disagree that you like x boss in y game better than w boss in z game, that would be silly.
So are you going to post it?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Comments
Honestly, while a more realistic looking kraken with sheen effects and everything would probably "look nicer" I can't imagine anything being more legit terrifying than being in the ocean and then suddenly seeing jagged toothy tentacles flailing about wildly in the air quickly moving towards you. The spasticness of it, for me, just makes it even more unnerving.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
i know lol, that looked really fun...if they do add pve in df like that then i would play.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
i know lol, that looked really fun...if they do add pve in df like that then i would play.
If they do? Where have you been. PvE IS in Darkfall. Get with the program.
i know lol, that looked really fun...if they do add pve in df like that then i would play.
If they do? Where have you been. PvE IS in Darkfall. Get with the program.
like very little.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
More stuff like that.
Make magic and melee more balanced.
More Sandboxy. (more things for non-combaters to do)
And Darkfall will be the best game ever produced.
EVER.
I have to say, its starting to look more like the devs back in the development days. Back, when they really knew what a MMO was. If their plan all along was to do what I said above, which I'm starting to think it has been, and they just did PVP as a starter to get people to give them money to produce more..... then they are brilliant.
You give me the PVE of WoW (more epic bosses is what I mean... like this), combined with the death penalty they already have, combined with good reasons to PVP, combined with a sandbox.... and I think I'll just have to quit the MMORPG genre and play Darkfall. How could you improve on that?
-----------------
How long did it take for them to make this latest patch?
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
I would say getting in an extended flame war with people more intelligent than you was a mistake.
Just saying...
Well they released a "expansion" right before the NA server was put online (i think). So i guess since then.
The most recent expansion adds a lot to the game.
Imo Darkfall needs pve to be very good if they want more people playing.
If the devs in that game can get people to come due to the pve features alone then they finally made a perfect sandbox game. It already has great combat and reasons to pvp all day, it has great crafting and recently they added in trading to the game.
Once guilds are formed in darkfall just to pve then darkfall will finally be at the level of some of the other sandbox games that have come before them (UO,Swg,Eve).
Even as a complete hater of this game you can't deny that darkfall is improving and you have more options in the game now than you did at launch.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
i know lol, that looked really fun...if they do add pve in df like that then i would play.
Ditto, if they ever get the PvE on par I'm all over it.
...and PvP is in Lord of the Rings Online....
Interesting trend lately, focusing on water, there'll be underwater gameplay with Cataclysm, this expansion gave a lot of love for the sea in DF (and holy ****, that's some awesome love with the villages, forts and the kraken), GW2 will feature underwater gameplay, Aion is promissing underwater gameplay, and probably more that I don't know about, just mentioned the titles I'm watching.
Good to see new trends that bring more to MMO gamers.
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
...and PvP is in Lord of the Rings Online....
haha!
What most of the darkfall fans on this site seem to not get is that pvers need a reason to play, something to hook them.
It needs to be as cool as the pvp mechanics in the game. YOu cant add a few more mob types and scatter chests around the world and call it pve.
You need dungeons to explore, large roaming bosses, random quest givers (think Eve agents), Factions to work for.
You need pve features in the game so that players can set goals and work toward them.
Being a sandbox game it doesn't need progression raids or anything but it needs to come close.
Edit: Before you say anything I know DF has a few of those features I listed. they just need more of it.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
Well obviously the community would be one. in a FFA pvp game you can't really avoid pvp. So the pve guys will need to fight and im sure the pvp guys wont just let them clear dungeons, quest and kill crazy big world bosses without a fight.
This wont be like a game like WoW with Arena guys on one side and raiders on another.
Everything should intertwine.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
My prediction is in a years time Darkfall will have a full pve focused sub community (that also like pvp) to go along with the crazy pvp guys/gals.
1 Question: Bosses drop stuff right? Not uber epic look at my shiny super cool uber fucking sparkle sword that does 10,000 DPS alone.... but something worth killing it for right?
Also, I would like to see the game return the genre back to it's roots. No PVE Sub Community and a PVP Sub Community. Just a freaking community of players, interacting in a game, playing all sorts of ways and w/e way they feel that day, everyone just having fun.
Ofc there will be sub communities, but not a complete segregation like EVE.
I am not a PVP player, I am not a PVE player, I am not a crafter. I am a player who loves all aspects of MMOs and nothing puts them all together. NOTHING.
Well obviously the community would be one. in a FFA pvp game you can't really avoid pvp. So the pve guys will need to fight and im sure the pvp guys wont just let them clear dungeons, quest and kill crazy big world bosses without a fight.
This wont be like a game like WoW with Arena guys on one side and raiders on another.
Everything should intertwine.
Exactly
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
1st : I do not play WoW (as stated before)
My comment's point was a simple question how is this boss anything AWESOME! if all it is is his size and that it swims. If you ask me that is a setback in MMO genre, which could be copied in other MMO (which would be horrific), since people from other games come here and drool bout it. The thing has no AI, in its core it is just s simplistic set of pixels that are bigger than we are used to.
Let me try find an analogy - modern movies. They have no depth, they are just an empty shells without soul that rely on big motherfucking explosions. The bigger the better ...
You see, I was criticising this "WOW IT IS SO BIG I THINK I JUST CAME" ... ok, it is a sea monster and it is simplistic - but don't drool over it as if it was something awesome. It is cool ... but far from awesome.
But one of the posters made a valid claim - this is just a monster that can interrupt a sea battle. At that point I would suggest tornados as well. This can be fun. But that was it is not awesome either. It is a nice adition to PVP making it harder. Ok, but awesome in my book would be randomly spawned ghost fleet that would simply attack everything. This is awesome. Kraken is cool.
Haven't you drawn this out quite enough now?
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
There is never enough drama. And I am still not sure what is awesome bout kraken. so no ... not enough
Actually I'm a RABID fanbois, thankyou very much :P
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I think theres room for both, this boss is just a numbers game get a few ships together with every 1 on board just spamming a range attack and down it goes, no skills required, where as scripted bosses standing in a dungeon requires skills, placement, awareness and every one working together.
Dude, seriously, are you fucking joking? You have to be joking... you really can't be this dumb.
Lol, he is not dumb he is the self appointed Blizzard delegate to flame anything a game does that may be construed as a threat to WOW subscriptions.
rofl darkfall is a threat no games numbers.
Doesnt matter. The key word is "construed". In other words, Blizz didnt do it so its not good. You know what i meant and so does Coffee.
Hey did I mention blizzard or WoW?, what in my statement is not true, the kraken is a numbers game, you don't need to worry about tank switching, aggro, abilities, timers as you do in many other MMO's... just spam a range attack until its dead (the more people the better), its not a snipe at DFO (ive never played it) but thats the facts... does not mean DFO is inferia to WoW or any other MMO just that this particular boss is a numbers/range spam affair and thats it and that is I have commented on.
Don't get me wrong I am sure it would be an epic affair if you truley were not expexting it but all times after that will just be "meh", as it is for all game bosses.
Some how declaring DFO as the greatest MMO of all time ( as some are ) simply because the krakens A.I consits of trying to match the X & Y position of it target while spamming some auto attack is funny at best and somthing from the 1980's.
I could go on about the poor animation, empty world, crappy effects etc but I wont as DFO is a low budget MMO and these are to be expected however there are no excuses for cheap boss fights, as some have said it could of had some abilities like trying to turn over the ship but I does not.
Here I just scripted the krakens attack A.I to show how hard it was for AV to add the boss.
if target.x > self.x
self.x:+self.speed
elseif target.x < self.x
self.x:-self.speed
endif
if target.y > self.y
self.y:+self.speed
elseif target.y < self.y
self.y:-self.speed
endif
self.autoattack
if self.health =<0.0 then self.die
@Coffee,
I still challenge you to link an ingame video of a what you believe to be a cooler boss fight, I'd be interested to compare it to the Kraken vid to see with my own eyes exactly what you mean.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
The point?
To up your post count by +1.
"IRL is a pretty upstanding MMO with thousands of classes, a lot of PvP and even some pretty unique emotes and titles you can acquire. Explore that world first, then we'll talk about this virtual one."
I don't see why people require amazing AI in bosses.
Sorry, not every game is WoW where you require a 3rd grade diploma to be able to not stand in the fire(and 90% of their playerbase still fails at it), the krakken is just meant to be awesome, not some hard pve boss.
Actually, I agree. The monster itself looks damned cool, but the combat will get old really fast.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I could do that...it isn't a ZOMG GIANT BOSS, but it was so damn cool to fight it(although I could link a ZOMG GIANT BOSS fight too).
Of course, you'll never agree so what's the point?
The point is that I'm very interested in seeing what it is you're talking about, if you've got some vids why not link them? The point isn't to get me to say "Yes that boss looks cooler then the Kraken" the point is for you to say "I think this is cooler/better than the Kraken". I can't disagree that you like x boss in y game better than w boss in z game, that would be silly.
So are you going to post it?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis