Well good thing I didnt pre-order the game yet.. I was all for it.. because I was looking forward to playing the Klingon side.. Not so much now. Like others I guess I'll be waiting for news of expansions on playable races before I give up my money.
Well I'll call myself a liar first before anyone else can.. After reading more here and on the STO forums, I think I'll still give it a go.. Whats the worst that can happen? I'll be disappointed by a game.. that'd be rare >.> <.<
This game is going no where anyway. Only the hardcore fans will sub, and based on poor game design, they'll leave. It's almost as if the game is only being produced to scam the fans out of their initial investment, then let the game go by the wayside.
This game is going no where anyway. Only the hardcore fans will sub, and based on poor game design, they'll leave. It's almost as if the game is only being produced to scam the fans out of their initial investment, then let the game go by the wayside.
Almost?
I think that's exactly what's being done.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Can't wait for them to rip me off, I want sto now.
No seriously, I couldn't care less about klingons I just want to play. I f the game turns out naff, I'll stop playing, but right now I just want to play.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The best thing you can do if you want to see this changed is to go onto the official forums for the game and be proactive about it. Don't be a pouty whiny snot nosed child, those threads and posts tend to get ignored the quickest. Be positive, be polite. State your reasons why and why not.
If enough people do this, the developers would certainly have reason to listen. The time for radical change (like adding Klingons) is before the game comes out. Even if it doesn't get changed, if you are true fan of the genre and the IP, i would suggest trying it out anyway. Chances are you might just dig it.
I'm not going to reward Cryptic for butchering the IP, thanks.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As far as I can remember, all of the Star Trek canon -- films, TV shows, etc. -- were based on the perspective of the Federation. That the online game will do that as well seems reasonable enough to me.
In fact, I think the game seems to be following the basic thrust of the TV shows: episodic, mission-based adventures for Federation teams with PvP involving the warrior-based faction, i.e., the Klingons.
I could see Cryptic adding Klingons as a playable race in an expansion, possibly, but I'm also OK if they never do.
To the many "the sky is falling!" posters in this thread, all I can say is, "Sheesh, guys. Get a grip."
I, for one, greatly look forward to playing this game.
Give me my U.S.S. Enterprise and give me the Kobayashi Maru scenario,player Klingons or NPC´s,doesn´t matter and i´ll give you whatever that game costs.
Klingons are playable as PvP only when the game launches. I've seen the term "monster play" bandied about on several boards and I think this fits the definition 100%. That alone confirms this game will not have decent faction based PvP, nor will it contain an in-depth skill or resource gathering system. If you think I'm incorrect then consider that an expansion that made another race (Klingons) playable as a faction would be at a 6-9 month disadvantage from day 1 if the game had any in-depth crafting or skill based system. I'd gladly take on the challenge if it were going to happen, but it's not. Cryptic is going to proudly take the title from SOE; how fast can you trash a fantastic IP? What a shame.... Feel free to watch the podcast as a STO dev confirms the information. http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1521 I'm going to ballpark it at around 100k initial subs will now vanish as a result of this.
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
Having said that now though I hope to not read too many statements about how this somehow messes up the ip because Star Trek was never focused on "war" so again while I am saddened for those interested in good pvp I don't think this really changes anything as far as how true Cryptic can be to the IP of Star Trek.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Seems like good ole Dan kicked off Klingon month in STYLE!
First, let me apologize that info has been slow to get out. Believe it or not, December was supposed to "klingon" month. I have zero clue why it's Dec. 15th and still nothing, but I can tell you this WILL change (I just saw the threads yesterday).
Secondly, yes, Klingon gameplay is almost entirely PvP. We are trying to get some PvE in (there's already a tad bit). And, if the players demand it, we'll add more content (like episodes). I want us to be agile as a company and respond to what the customers want.
Third, I'll reiterate my point in the other thread. I'm most excited about playing a Klingon. I love combat in a bird of prey. Klingons are getting attention - from me. It's not as much as I'd want, but we have a foundation that we can grow into. If people like the federation gameplay, we can put that in for the Klingons. If players have a different set of requests for klingons, we can do that instead. We can make STO into the game that YOU want.
I'll close with that. MMORPG's aren't just about release. They're about community and the years of gameplay. Disappointed that there isn't more Klingon gameplay? Play STO, tell us what you'd like and we can deliver that. Every passing day, we can make STO into what the fans want.
Some hope for the future here and if it bothers you that the Klingons are mostly PVP go to the official forums and YELL!
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
I don't feel it's so much a late decision, I think its more just run out of time and therefor poor deveolpment management, but when it some to STO I couldn't give a toss, I just want my ship, a uniform, a few quests and plenty of space and I'm in. It may get tiresome quickly and they'll lose my sub but I guess thats their job to keep me.
I would never feel this way about any other IP in an mmo (except maybe firefly) but trek is one of a kind for me and I'm gonna get mugged off or not, either way I'm like kid in a sweet shop just waiting to throw my cash at them. It's sad I know, I just don't care.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
I don't feel it's so much a late decision, I think its more just run out of time and therefor poor deveolpment management, but when it some to STO I couldn't give a toss, I just want my ship, a uniform, a few quests and plenty of space and I'm in. It may get tiresome quickly and they'll lose my sub but I guess thats their job to keep me.
I would never feel this way about any other IP in an mmo (except maybe firefly) but trek is one of a kind for me and I'm gonna get mugged off or not, either way I'm like kid in a sweet shop just waiting to throw my cash at them. It's sad I know, I just don't care.
Either way things could have been done much earlier to convey that this was a possibility. And I think evidence exists that this could happen in the released box art that has no Klingons on it at all and by the release of information about the game which never included stats for Klingon content and again it's still late in the game to confirm this since the only reason to think pvp would be a true option is because they themselves have said so in interviews.
But again this does not effect my own personal play style in anyway so I'll still be playing and hoping they can still touch the things that truly make Trek great (and pvp is not one of them.).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The best thing you can do if you want to see this changed is to go onto the official forums for the game and be proactive about it. Don't be a pouty whiny snot nosed child, those threads and posts tend to get ignored the quickest. Be positive, be polite. State your reasons why and why not.
If enough people do this, the developers would certainly have reason to listen. The time for radical change (like adding Klingons) is before the game comes out. Even if it doesn't get changed, if you are true fan of the genre and the IP, i would suggest trying it out anyway. Chances are you might just dig it.
For godsakes, the game launches in a month and a half -- there is no freakin' time to make radical changes, and if they tried, well that's a recipe for launch day disaster and early exploit mania.
Cryptic made their mistakes months ago -- perhaps letting in Yes men and toadies to testing phases not the best way to produce a solid game for the fans.
Oh, and Cryptic should file a lawsuit against their market research firms for gross negligence and incompetence.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I think it's fairly safe to say this wasn't out of choice. So going to the boards is highly unlikely to have any impact whatsoever, chances are they are in the process of adding it now but just didn't have time and are releasing a semi-half finished game. That makes them the same as every other dev of an mmo I can remember playing at release.
I do hope they add the borg though, for me I think I would have that further up the list than finishing pve for klingons, even if they were purely PvP also.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The best thing you can do if you want to see this changed is to go onto the official forums for the game and be proactive about it. Don't be a pouty whiny snot nosed child, those threads and posts tend to get ignored the quickest. Be positive, be polite. State your reasons why and why not.
If enough people do this, the developers would certainly have reason to listen. The time for radical change (like adding Klingons) is before the game comes out. Even if it doesn't get changed, if you are true fan of the genre and the IP, i would suggest trying it out anyway. Chances are you might just dig it.
Too late. Atari is going to force this out the door 02 Feb 2010 regardless of the state of readiness the game is in. Maybe in 6 months the game will be worth checking out. I'm done paying for betas hoping they eventually add the content that should have been in at launch.
I find the people who ask others to waste their money on this game ridiculous. I for one care about wasting 50+ dollars on a game that won't deliver what I want because it was rushed and made by a company that is incapable of making content with any depth. There has been example after example of how they've failed the IP from ships with heal beams to the Klingon Empire being a joke with no real PvE content.
Why should anyone waste their money on this? Why should Cryptic be rewarded for their lack of development time and sloppy work? There is very little about this game that has any promise, but Cryptic clearly is trying to get as many people to waste money on it with all of their pre-order deals. They are clearly banking on Trekkies tossing their money away just because it is Star Trek.
Frankly, I have better things to spend my money on. I could buy a game that isn't crap. I could go to the movies a few times. I could buy several movies. I could have get Sushi a couple times. All of those and many other options are much better than tossing my money at a game that is so clearly lacking in so many ways. Maybe people who don't care at all about how they spend their money or about rewarding companies that bring very little to market are fine wasting 50 bucks on game that's basically still going to be in beta, but I believe I am in good company with a lot of other people who actually care about how they spend money.
I'm very dissapointed by this. It's becoming clear to me why they are showing off most what they are good at, character customisation and only showing footage of combat.
Think about it. They've obviously known the limits of the klingon play for some time now and could see that people were assuming it was a full faction (why would we ever assume otherwise?). Why so late in the process are we being told this?
I feel like they're busy polishing a turd and hoping no one will notice the smell. If they can't take the time to flesh out a second faction, what other corners are they cutting? They've taken what? two years to make this game? I don't think thats long enough and I don't know maybe they thought they'd get it in before the launch date... I just have a feeling that after the game fails we will be getting a flood of those candid post cancellation interviews about they were forced to launch, everything was rushed blah blah blah.
I so want to be wrong, this is star trek and I have been waiting for this game for a long long time.
I'm better off waiting for post launch then being hurt, and look on the bright side at least i wont have to frett over what pre order bonus to get.
I think most guys in this thread, on both sides, are not thinking about what the issue here is.
It is not about Klingon being mainly PvP focused or not, it is that 1.5 months from release not one single thing about the Klingon faction has been beta tested. When did you last hear about a whole faction (not just one class) not being beta tested a little over a month before release?
Everything else is secondary to that. Klingon Faction, PvE, PvP or whatever, is completely untested in beta and the game is about to release. If that doesn't ring an alarm bell in anyone Klingon wannabe head then well what can I tell you? Fool me once...
And for Cryptic. Dont you learn from your misstakes? Champions Online was all hyped up shit but then when people realised that there is no balance, little PvP and not enough content, they left. In HUGE numbers.
Champions Online now scores BELOW City of Heroes/Villains. Why do you think that is?
I think most guys in this thread, on both sides, are not thinking about what the issue here is. It is not about Klingon being mainly PvP focused or not, it is that 1.5 months from release not one single thing about the Klingon faction has been beta tested. When did you last hear about a whole faction (not just one class) not being beta tested a little over a month before release? Everything else is secondary to that. Klingon Faction, PvE, PvP or whatever, is completely untested in beta and the game is about to release. If that doesn't ring an alarm bell in anyone Klingon wannabe head then well what can I tell you? Fool me once... And for Cryptic. Dont you learn from your misstakes? Champions Online was all hyped up shit but then when people realised that there is no balance, little PvP and not enough content, they left. In HUGE numbers. Champions Online now scores BELOW City of Heroes/Villains. Why do you think that is?
That is an excellent point as well. Especially since Cryptic is know for their major balance problems.
You mean you're not playing? Oh, come on now, USS Doubter would make such a cool cruiser name!
Indeed it would, but I think that (given my 'popularity' on these boards) I would be painting a huge bullseye on myself.
A heck of an idea, though.
Apologies for sidetracking the thread, but I have to say, for someone who posts negative things as much as you do Doubter, you do it pretty even-handedly and without resorting to anything troll-like. This ends up turning things into a debate instead of a flame war. Even if I disagree with 90% of what you say, I can respect that you're pretty reasonable about it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
Well I'll call myself a liar first before anyone else can.. After reading more here and on the STO forums, I think I'll still give it a go.. Whats the worst that can happen? I'll be disappointed by a game.. that'd be rare >.> <.<
This game is going no where anyway. Only the hardcore fans will sub, and based on poor game design, they'll leave. It's almost as if the game is only being produced to scam the fans out of their initial investment, then let the game go by the wayside.
I Imagine they ran out of time. I really wouldn't mind them pushing back the date to add klingons as a playable player race into the final game.
I am amazed that people who want to play Klingons want more PvE.
Klingons are warriors. They are trained from birth to be that way.
You need more than just PVP to keep the game fun and intersting. If one want PVP only he can play Warhammer and just do scenarios.
Guess you can add me to list not buying without Klingons!!
Almost?
I think that's exactly what's being done.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The best thing you can do if you want to see this changed is to go onto the official forums for the game and be proactive about it.
Don't be a pouty whiny snot nosed child, those threads and posts tend to get ignored the quickest.
Be positive, be polite. State your reasons why and why not.
If enough people do this, the developers would certainly have reason to listen.
The time for radical change (like adding Klingons) is before the game comes out.
Even if it doesn't get changed, if you are true fan of the genre and the IP, i would suggest trying it out anyway. Chances are you might just dig it.
Can't wait for them to rip me off, I want sto now.
No seriously, I couldn't care less about klingons I just want to play. I f the game turns out naff, I'll stop playing, but right now I just want to play.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I'm not going to reward Cryptic for butchering the IP, thanks.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As far as I can remember, all of the Star Trek canon -- films, TV shows, etc. -- were based on the perspective of the Federation. That the online game will do that as well seems reasonable enough to me.
In fact, I think the game seems to be following the basic thrust of the TV shows: episodic, mission-based adventures for Federation teams with PvP involving the warrior-based faction, i.e., the Klingons.
I could see Cryptic adding Klingons as a playable race in an expansion, possibly, but I'm also OK if they never do.
To the many "the sky is falling!" posters in this thread, all I can say is, "Sheesh, guys. Get a grip."
I, for one, greatly look forward to playing this game.
Give me my U.S.S. Enterprise and give me the Kobayashi Maru scenario,player Klingons or NPC´s,doesn´t matter and i´ll give you whatever that game costs.
Generation P
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
Having said that now though I hope to not read too many statements about how this somehow messes up the ip because Star Trek was never focused on "war" so again while I am saddened for those interested in good pvp I don't think this really changes anything as far as how true Cryptic can be to the IP of Star Trek.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Jackalope posted this on the official boards:
Seems like good ole Dan kicked off Klingon month in STYLE!
First, let me apologize that info has been slow to get out. Believe it or not, December was supposed to "klingon" month. I have zero clue why it's Dec. 15th and still nothing, but I can tell you this WILL change (I just saw the threads yesterday).
Secondly, yes, Klingon gameplay is almost entirely PvP. We are trying to get some PvE in (there's already a tad bit). And, if the players demand it, we'll add more content (like episodes). I want us to be agile as a company and respond to what the customers want.
Third, I'll reiterate my point in the other thread. I'm most excited about playing a Klingon. I love combat in a bird of prey. Klingons are getting attention - from me. It's not as much as I'd want, but we have a foundation that we can grow into. If people like the federation gameplay, we can put that in for the Klingons. If players have a different set of requests for klingons, we can do that instead. We can make STO into the game that YOU want.
I'll close with that. MMORPG's aren't just about release. They're about community and the years of gameplay. Disappointed that there isn't more Klingon gameplay? Play STO, tell us what you'd like and we can deliver that. Every passing day, we can make STO into what the fans want.
Some hope for the future here and if it bothers you that the Klingons are mostly PVP go to the official forums and YELL!
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
I don't feel it's so much a late decision, I think its more just run out of time and therefor poor deveolpment management, but when it some to STO I couldn't give a toss, I just want my ship, a uniform, a few quests and plenty of space and I'm in. It may get tiresome quickly and they'll lose my sub but I guess thats their job to keep me.
I would never feel this way about any other IP in an mmo (except maybe firefly) but trek is one of a kind for me and I'm gonna get mugged off or not, either way I'm like kid in a sweet shop just waiting to throw my cash at them. It's sad I know, I just don't care.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
This game just dropped below Darfall and Fallen Earth on my interest meter.
Its just a "game" and evren further from a vitual world than recent titles have been.
I won't support it, but I'm sure it will have its supporters who enjoy it.
Cryptic just doesn't make games that I care much for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I count this as a very curious decision I was not going to roll Klingon and am not an avid pvp player so it does not sway me enough to stop me from playing but it still comes off as a pretty major decision kind of late in the game.
I don't feel it's so much a late decision, I think its more just run out of time and therefor poor deveolpment management, but when it some to STO I couldn't give a toss, I just want my ship, a uniform, a few quests and plenty of space and I'm in. It may get tiresome quickly and they'll lose my sub but I guess thats their job to keep me.
I would never feel this way about any other IP in an mmo (except maybe firefly) but trek is one of a kind for me and I'm gonna get mugged off or not, either way I'm like kid in a sweet shop just waiting to throw my cash at them. It's sad I know, I just don't care.
Either way things could have been done much earlier to convey that this was a possibility. And I think evidence exists that this could happen in the released box art that has no Klingons on it at all and by the release of information about the game which never included stats for Klingon content and again it's still late in the game to confirm this since the only reason to think pvp would be a true option is because they themselves have said so in interviews.
But again this does not effect my own personal play style in anyway so I'll still be playing and hoping they can still touch the things that truly make Trek great (and pvp is not one of them.).
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
For godsakes, the game launches in a month and a half -- there is no freakin' time to make radical changes, and if they tried, well that's a recipe for launch day disaster and early exploit mania.
Cryptic made their mistakes months ago -- perhaps letting in Yes men and toadies to testing phases not the best way to produce a solid game for the fans.
Oh, and Cryptic should file a lawsuit against their market research firms for gross negligence and incompetence.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
I think it's fairly safe to say this wasn't out of choice. So going to the boards is highly unlikely to have any impact whatsoever, chances are they are in the process of adding it now but just didn't have time and are releasing a semi-half finished game. That makes them the same as every other dev of an mmo I can remember playing at release.
I do hope they add the borg though, for me I think I would have that further up the list than finishing pve for klingons, even if they were purely PvP also.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Too late. Atari is going to force this out the door 02 Feb 2010 regardless of the state of readiness the game is in. Maybe in 6 months the game will be worth checking out. I'm done paying for betas hoping they eventually add the content that should have been in at launch.
I find the people who ask others to waste their money on this game ridiculous. I for one care about wasting 50+ dollars on a game that won't deliver what I want because it was rushed and made by a company that is incapable of making content with any depth. There has been example after example of how they've failed the IP from ships with heal beams to the Klingon Empire being a joke with no real PvE content.
Why should anyone waste their money on this? Why should Cryptic be rewarded for their lack of development time and sloppy work? There is very little about this game that has any promise, but Cryptic clearly is trying to get as many people to waste money on it with all of their pre-order deals. They are clearly banking on Trekkies tossing their money away just because it is Star Trek.
Frankly, I have better things to spend my money on. I could buy a game that isn't crap. I could go to the movies a few times. I could buy several movies. I could have get Sushi a couple times. All of those and many other options are much better than tossing my money at a game that is so clearly lacking in so many ways. Maybe people who don't care at all about how they spend their money or about rewarding companies that bring very little to market are fine wasting 50 bucks on game that's basically still going to be in beta, but I believe I am in good company with a lot of other people who actually care about how they spend money.
I'm very dissapointed by this. It's becoming clear to me why they are showing off most what they are good at, character customisation and only showing footage of combat.
Think about it. They've obviously known the limits of the klingon play for some time now and could see that people were assuming it was a full faction (why would we ever assume otherwise?). Why so late in the process are we being told this?
I feel like they're busy polishing a turd and hoping no one will notice the smell. If they can't take the time to flesh out a second faction, what other corners are they cutting? They've taken what? two years to make this game? I don't think thats long enough and I don't know maybe they thought they'd get it in before the launch date... I just have a feeling that after the game fails we will be getting a flood of those candid post cancellation interviews about they were forced to launch, everything was rushed blah blah blah.
I so want to be wrong, this is star trek and I have been waiting for this game for a long long time.
I'm better off waiting for post launch then being hurt, and look on the bright side at least i wont have to frett over what pre order bonus to get.
I think most guys in this thread, on both sides, are not thinking about what the issue here is.
It is not about Klingon being mainly PvP focused or not, it is that 1.5 months from release not one single thing about the Klingon faction has been beta tested. When did you last hear about a whole faction (not just one class) not being beta tested a little over a month before release?
Everything else is secondary to that. Klingon Faction, PvE, PvP or whatever, is completely untested in beta and the game is about to release. If that doesn't ring an alarm bell in anyone Klingon wannabe head then well what can I tell you? Fool me once...
And for Cryptic. Dont you learn from your misstakes? Champions Online was all hyped up shit but then when people realised that there is no balance, little PvP and not enough content, they left. In HUGE numbers.
Champions Online now scores BELOW City of Heroes/Villains. Why do you think that is?
My gaming blog
That is an excellent point as well. Especially since Cryptic is know for their major balance problems.
Indeed it would, but I think that (given my 'popularity' on these boards) I would be painting a huge bullseye on myself.
A heck of an idea, though.
Apologies for sidetracking the thread, but I have to say, for someone who posts negative things as much as you do Doubter, you do it pretty even-handedly and without resorting to anything troll-like. This ends up turning things into a debate instead of a flame war. Even if I disagree with 90% of what you say, I can respect that you're pretty reasonable about it.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000