Old school one of those terms that just shouldn't be used anymore. I started UO in 98 and soloed almost all the time. Soloing wasn't hard at all. You did died, you lost all your stuff from time to time but replacing gm armor and gear wasn't really a big deal. So I don't know what you were doing wrong. Player housing being instances now. Meh not really a big deal. This way the wilderness still looks like a wilderness not an urban wasteland and everyone that wants a house can get one. Instant pvp I've always liked fps pvp which put combatants on even terms. I have always thought pvp in mmorpgs was more about who ganked who first or with the larger number or level. So again meh could care less. I would really like to see a mmo that focuses on character development over gear farming. I'd also like to see item destruction come back. What I would really like to see are all these micro raids go away.
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
A while ago, 40 mans were removed from the game, because WoW players weren't able to clear trivial zones like Molten Core. So BWL, AQ, and Naxx had to be severely nerfed for the dumber players. Now WoW players are left with an abundance of trivial instances. Somehow raiding those instances and getting gear that everyone else already has is fun.
They also want all of the endgame content to be shared by everyone regardless of skill. Clearly more skilled guilds should have to wear the same items as the same newbies who couldn't even manage to beat newb instances such as MC. Any gear difference in an MMORPG is "not fair to casuals" and "for players with no life". Because clearly, players who are better than other players have no life, and it's a pure time advantage they have over these people who have lifes. [/Sarcasm] But really, that is how it is. If you are better than these players, they'll call it a time advantage instead of saying you are better than them. And blizzard has dumbed down WoW content so much you have to wear the same stuff as these casuals (I'd call these casuals skill-less newbies, because that is the basic difference) They want a single player game too, they can solo from level 1-80 pretty easily. And a game where they can spam shocks till they are OOM then drink, and repeat 5000x to level up. There is no skill in leveling in a game like WoW. Just a waste of time. There used to be a time when leveling required effort, and playing like shit meant you would get killed. But clearly getting killed in an MMORPG is too hardcore for these so-called MMO players.
the problem is player got better .around the time bwl and all the other were nerfed if they had stayed un-nerfed player would have been happy
now the content got dumbed down and player became better so it went from hard to silly easy
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
Yea and i like not beeing completly safe all the time, knowing that i can get attacked by someone at all time. Thats when you make friends that can come and help you.
But i know what you mean, Aion is a bad example of open world pvp. DaoC is a good example of open world pvp
on another topic, as we see all the mmo developers beeing bought up (Mythic, Bioware, EA) or companys becoming to big for their own good (Activision Blizzard) will we ever see mmos that we players want or will there only be carbon copies of their previous games to lure us to buy their games even though their crap?
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
Yea and i like not beeing completly safe all the time, knowing that i can get attacked by someone at all time. Thats when you make friends that can come and help you.
But i know what you mean, Aion is a bad example of open world pvp. DaoC is a good example of open world pvp
on another topic, as we see all the mmo developers beeing bought up (Mythic, Bioware, EA) or companys becoming to big for their own good (Activision Blizzard) will we ever see mmos that we players want or will there only be carbon copies of their previous games to lure us to buy their games even though their crap?
mm there were so many unsuccessfull game that were carbon copy of wow that i dont believe there are any company willing to risk it.
if there is a team that might convince to do a revolutionary mmo its everquest first team since they did convince back then.
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
Its exactly the same in Lotro, while its not a hardcore game in any way, probably the most casual of them all, they dumb everything down to cater the casuals so they can reep the benefits from those that has figured everything out, worked hard for weeks to clear the instance and actually spent some time in the game. Preferably they want to get it for free from the nearest NPC (why do you care if i get the same stuff as you do)
I mean, what do you need the good gear for if you never do anything :P
You obviously haven't played LOTRO for a while. So-called 'casuals' have been up in arms ever since Mines of Moria because the best gear in LOTRO is found in raids that are gated by radiance gear requirements - and radiance gear is not easy to get for casual players. And the current best weapons (Lvl 65 2nd Age) require mats that only drop in fairly difficult 6-man and 12-man instances. If anything, many long-time LOTRO players are complaining that the game has become less casual-friendly. Of course, 'casual' is a relative term, so I'm sure a hard-core DF or EQ player will sneer at anything considered 'difficult' in LOTRO!
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
Its exactly the same in Lotro, while its not a hardcore game in any way, probably the most casual of them all, they dumb everything down to cater the casuals so they can reep the benefits from those that has figured everything out, worked hard for weeks to clear the instance and actually spent some time in the game. Preferably they want to get it for free from the nearest NPC (why do you care if i get the same stuff as you do)
I mean, what do you need the good gear for if you never do anything :P
You obviously haven't played LOTRO for a while. So-called 'casuals' have been up in arms ever since Mines of Moria because the best gear in LOTRO is found in raids that are gated by radiance gear requirements - and radiance gear is not easy to get for casual players. And the current best weapons (Lvl 65 2nd Age) require mats that only drop in fairly difficult 6-man and 12-man instances. If anything, many long-time LOTRO players are complaining that the game has become less casual-friendly. Of course, 'casual' is a relative term, so I'm sure a hard-core DF or EQ player will sneer at anything considered 'difficult' in LOTRO!
i wil probably give it a try since its avail at my local store and i ear lotr will get dx11 in first quater so it will be playing smoother.
Not only are oldschool players dying, we are actually 2 groups.
The players like OP that started with UO and player like me that started with Meridian 59 or Everquest (M59 in my case) are not the same kind of people. I would say that we are still as much OS as the UO gang, but we don't have so much in common anyways.
Game genres changes with time and right now are we in a Wow era. But that doesn't mean that the genre will continue like that in future, it is very possible that in 5 or 10 years will the Wow players sound just like you. Maybe console MMOs will be the huge thing then, the games might get harder again or anything else might happen, maybe people use Wii controllers in the future. Some UO things might come back.
The only thing certain is that the genre will change again sooner or later. Change isn't always bad but not everyone will be happy whatever happens.
I agree with the UO guys that endgame should have more player created stuff (guildcities for one thing), the endgame of current MMOs are rather limited and it will change one way or another in the future, but it is hard to say how.
A wise man once said "The future is like the butt of a baboon, colorful and full of crap" (sounds better in Swedish). What was will never again be but the same goes for what is now.
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
A while ago, 40 mans were removed from the game, because WoW players weren't able to clear trivial zones like Molten Core. So BWL, AQ, and Naxx had to be severely nerfed for the dumber players. Now WoW players are left with an abundance of trivial instances. Somehow raiding those instances and getting gear that everyone else already has is fun.
They also want all of the endgame content to be shared by everyone regardless of skill. Clearly more skilled guilds should have to wear the same items as the same newbies who couldn't even manage to beat newb instances such as MC. Any gear difference in an MMORPG is "not fair to casuals" and "for players with no life". Because clearly, players who are better than other players have no life, and it's a pure time advantage they have over these people who have lifes. [/Sarcasm] But really, that is how it is. If you are better than these players, they'll call it a time advantage instead of saying you are better than them. And blizzard has dumbed down WoW content so much you have to wear the same stuff as these casuals (I'd call these casuals skill-less newbies, because that is the basic difference) They want a single player game too, they can solo from level 1-80 pretty easily. And a game where they can spam shocks till they are OOM then drink, and repeat 5000x to level up. There is no skill in leveling in a game like WoW. Just a waste of time. There used to be a time when leveling required effort, and playing like shit meant you would get killed. But clearly getting killed in an MMORPG is too hardcore for these so-called MMO players.
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
A while ago, 40 mans were removed from the game, because WoW players weren't able to clear trivial zones like Molten Core. So BWL, AQ, and Naxx had to be severely nerfed for the dumber players. Now WoW players are left with an abundance of trivial instances. Somehow raiding those instances and getting gear that everyone else already has is fun.
They also want all of the endgame content to be shared by everyone regardless of skill. Clearly more skilled guilds should have to wear the same items as the same newbies who couldn't even manage to beat newb instances such as MC. Any gear difference in an MMORPG is "not fair to casuals" and "for players with no life". Because clearly, players who are better than other players have no life, and it's a pure time advantage they have over these people who have lifes. [/Sarcasm] But really, that is how it is. If you are better than these players, they'll call it a time advantage instead of saying you are better than them. And blizzard has dumbed down WoW content so much you have to wear the same stuff as these casuals (I'd call these casuals skill-less newbies, because that is the basic difference) They want a single player game too, they can solo from level 1-80 pretty easily. And a game where they can spam shocks till they are OOM then drink, and repeat 5000x to level up. There is no skill in leveling in a game like WoW. Just a waste of time. There used to be a time when leveling required effort, and playing like shit meant you would get killed. But clearly getting killed in an MMORPG is too hardcore for these so-called MMO players.
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
world raid dragon was very nice (since it wasnt instanced)
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Yeah I don't really understand WoW players. All they do is whine about how the content is too difficult, then Blizzard goes and makes the content retardedly trivial.
A while ago, 40 mans were removed from the game, because WoW players weren't able to clear trivial zones like Molten Core. So BWL, AQ, and Naxx had to be severely nerfed for the dumber players. Now WoW players are left with an abundance of trivial instances. Somehow raiding those instances and getting gear that everyone else already has is fun.
They also want all of the endgame content to be shared by everyone regardless of skill. Clearly more skilled guilds should have to wear the same items as the same newbies who couldn't even manage to beat newb instances such as MC. Any gear difference in an MMORPG is "not fair to casuals" and "for players with no life". Because clearly, players who are better than other players have no life, and it's a pure time advantage they have over these people who have lifes. [/Sarcasm] But really, that is how it is. If you are better than these players, they'll call it a time advantage instead of saying you are better than them. And blizzard has dumbed down WoW content so much you have to wear the same stuff as these casuals (I'd call these casuals skill-less newbies, because that is the basic difference) They want a single player game too, they can solo from level 1-80 pretty easily. And a game where they can spam shocks till they are OOM then drink, and repeat 5000x to level up. There is no skill in leveling in a game like WoW. Just a waste of time. There used to be a time when leveling required effort, and playing like shit meant you would get killed. But clearly getting killed in an MMORPG is too hardcore for these so-called MMO players.
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
LOL
So you guys were stuck in MOLTEN CORE because the zone was too tedious? Quit making excuses. You casuals were horrible at the game and ruined it for the rest of us. You couldn't even clear MC trash, that is tedious, that your guild was bad?
And no, the gear difference isn't significant:
You might have a raid at difficulty level 1, gives you +100 HP item
Then you might have a raid at difficulty level 10, gives you a +105 HP item
Blizzard = bunch of sellouts to bad players who couldn't handle trivial raid content.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Oh that's right I forgot there were no mmos before EQ. Put your little ego away.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
men i sure missed what you talk about and it sound like ton of fun .wonder if we ll see some of this again one day
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Oh that's right I forgot there were no mmos before EQ. Put your little ego away.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Hate to tell you, but pvp even back in the "good ole days" was still just as meaningless as it is today. The only meaning is divined from the player base. The only difference between then and now was that then pvp was done for the sake of pvp (which is a form of player created content), and now pvp has various rewards and is usually placed in a setting created by dev teams.
old school MMORPG gamers i see more and more posts now with people that are asking for arena style pvp, instanced raids, gear grinders, easy to level, and continuous end game content. where winning depends on gear. i started my MMO days with ultima online, pre-trammel, and i know some that started with MUDs. for me an MMORPG is a big world that is so vast that to go from one side to the other would take some preparation. where content was created by the players themselves and the devs simply made the tools available to us. player housing was not instanced but you would build your own house inside the world. (you better put some security in that house because thieves can come and steal anything in it) the world was made barren and us the players made the end game content and built on this barren world, it was not about me, myself and I. it was about me IN my community (be clan or guild) versus other communities. we created fame by our actions and not by our gear and lvl.
yes it was a harsh world and solo play was extremely hard so people played in teams, and thats the way it was meant to. It was not for everyone and the developers knew that. and instead of trying to make that game appeal to more people they instead try to please their current communities. but now people are asking for MMORPG games that they can log in and play the way they want to how they want to. if they want to go solo, then the MMORPG of their choice should be able to cater to the ability to play solo. if they want to group then they have that option IF they want to. People want MMORPGs to be easier to reach the end game, and instead of making the game playable while leveling, they make it faster to reach end game (why not simply start them up at max lvl?) honestly i think if they want to play solo, they should find a single player game (oblivion, witcher, dragon age KOTOR, KOTOR2 , freelancer: a few that come to mind) if they want a quick in and out, then play adventure games, or Multiplayer games. i realize that this new generation of MMORPG gaming has the majority of players asking for MMORPGs that play like SP and MP games. and thats the reality of the situation. there are a few games that are comming out (some already out) that are inspired by the old days, but look at the bashing they get all over the place. (thinking of darkfall), though i agree it has its problems but not much more than the problems UO had (specially at the beginning) but give it sometime and darkfall will be up to what UO used to be (including player housing) and i would not be surprised if they have flying mounts (if they survive the harsh years to come and newer games with more budget) mortal online is also coming out eventually which has some promising features. right now i am playing eve. it has most of the features of old school gaming. the only down i see to it is the space. (its the same everywhere.) but its not enough to drive me away from the game cuz the good outweight the bad. right now i am very tight on money and i really do not have 50$ to spend on darkfall. but if i had i would buy it without hesitating. even if it has its flaws. again i am seeing more and more new school gamers and less and less old school gamers, we are a dying breed and its getting to a point of having 1 less old school MMORPG player (me) if 2010 does not improve. but i kind of see a glint of hope... hopefully it will not be shadowed by the new style. i know this is a wall of text hey, im old school. Andy
Have to say I thoroughly enjoyed your post, I grew up on EQ1 before any expansions. Not quite as old as Ultima but I would still say it was old school vast world exc exc. Yes i did enjoy EQ1 and I would like it even more than WoW even today but the problem is SOE never found a way to keep people at lower levels, like if you tryed to go back to EQ1 right now you would be playing alone for a year inless you knew people to powerlevel you. Who the hell wants to powerlevel? It takes the entire fun out of the game, you feel like you didn't really accomplish anything once you get up in level because it didn't take very long at all to get up there. After playing WoW for so many years, I cannot even go back to EQ1. I remember when I had to message a group leader and sit on a waiting list for 2 hours just to get into the grind group in a certain area. Now its like immediate groups.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Hate to tell you, but pvp even back in the "good ole days" was still just as meaningless as it is today. The only meaning is divined from the player base. The only difference between then and now was that then pvp was done for the sake of pvp (which is a form of player created content), and now pvp has various rewards and is usually placed in a setting created by dev teams.
No it wasn't.
In older MMORPGs, the PVP was connected with PVE. If your guild went to go raid something and another guild shows up and kills you, you basically lose your PVE content. The best or smartest guilds will succeed in PVE and PVP.
PVP is only done for the sake of PVP in meaningless games like WOW. Because PVE was instanced, the players had nothing to fight over, so they fought for the sake of fighting.
But in EQ, the PVE was not instanced. Players would show up to the same zone to raid and have to fight each other. The outcome was important and had an effect on the outcome of the server.
You can tell if a game has meaningless PVP: Do they need to add some reward for fighting other players? If so, the PVP is meaningless.
If the PVP was connected to the server and was meaningful, they don't need rewards. Players fight NATURALLY because there are DISPUTES over CONTENT.
Please learn your MMORPG history before talking, it's clear your only MMORPG under your belt is WOW
Originally posted by Torik The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game. WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge. The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done. The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
LOL
So you guys were stuck in MOLTEN CORE because the zone was too tedious? Quit making excuses. You casuals were horrible at the game and ruined it for the rest of us. You couldn't even clear MC trash, that is tedious, that your guild was bad?
And no, the gear difference isn't significant:
You might have a raid at difficulty level 1, gives you +100 HP item
Then you might have a raid at difficulty level 10, gives you a +105 HP item
Blizzard = bunch of sellouts to bad players who couldn't handle trivial raid content.
Molten Core was tedious because you guild would stuck in it for months after you 'solved' the instance and was able to clear it regularly in a couple hours. A guild who started to raid could beat Molten Core in a couple months if they had the pool of players to form the raids out of. However, you would be stuck going back there week after week for months to gear up the rest of the players in your guild. Heck, we were finishing BWL and still needed to go back to MC for the gear. We desperately wanted to stop doing MC but that would have meant that we would cut off any newer players from being able to join us in BWL and AQ. If yoru raiding guild stopped doing MC, the only way to get replacement raiders was to recruit from other raiding guilds.
MC was actually fairly easy once you get the raid structure organized in your guild and got some raiding experience under your belt. My ultra casual guild was able to beat it in about month and a half. It was the soul csrushing tedioum of having to farm it week after week that killed us.
As far as your gear difference 'numbers' they are laughable.
A tier 7 (starting WotlK raid set) mage head piece would have 54 stamina and 87 spellpower. It's Tier 10.5 (Icecrown 25man hardmode) equivalent has 139 stamina and 186 spellpower. The best tier helm a non-raiding mage can obtain (afer months of grinding) has 109 stamina and 140 spellpower. That's a 25% spellpower increase from 'serious non-raider' to 'elite harmode raider'.
You are not a dying breed. We are just a small minority of MMO players that enjoyed the older style MMOs that required more time and dedication to play. Some of the older games are hailed as Hardcore, often included things like XP loss on death, very limited quests, slower pace, less hand holding, hard controls, and sometimes PvP that facilitated fighting over resources, MOBS and killing weaker players.
if you look back you will see games that togethter struggled to maintain subscription levels over 600,000 total. The last 5 years of games has brought at least 10 times as many people into MMOs but many of them do not enjoy the old skool playsyle of game. The want more FUN less challenge, they want things to be quick and require less time investment, they want content open to everyone that doesn't restrict things based on skill of the players or the ability of players to work together as a team.
So in the end you have an MMO daycare center that players throw tons of money at and a small group of "old skool" players that wish someone would make a challenging MMO for adults. Hopefully over time as technology becomes cheaper we will see more niche MMOs and finally something for us "old skool" players to call Home, a place where a tough challenge requiring dedication is FUN.
The best or smartest guilds will succeed in PVE and PVP. Please learn your MMORPG history before talking, it's clear your only MMORPG under your belt is WOW
Now this made me laugh.
MMO history as long as it is EQ and after huh? Maybe you should stop talking?
You are not a dying breed. We are just a small minority of MMO players that enjoyed the older style MMOs that required more time and dedication to play. Some of the older games are hailed as Hardcore, often included things like XP loss on death, very limited quests, slower pace, less hand holding, hard controls, and sometimes PvP that facilitated fighting over resources, MOBS and killing weaker players. if you look back you will see games that togethter struggled to maintain subscription levels over 600,000 total. The last 5 years of games has brought at least 10 times as many people into MMOs but many of them do not enjoy the old skool playsyle of game. The want more FUN less challenge, they want things to be quick and require less time investment, they want content open to everyone that doesn't restrict things based on skill of the players or the ability of players to work together as a team.
So in the end you have an MMO daycare center that players throw tons of money at and a small group of "old skool" players that wish someone would make a challenging MMO for adults. Hopefully over time as technology becomes cheaper we will see more niche MMOs and finally something for us "old skool" players to call Home, a place where a tough challenge requiring dedication is FUN.
i dont mind simple mmo!but there are game for that free realm is the ideal mmo for that
why take vanilla wow (wich was good then)and change it to basicly what free realm is but in the p2p world
so only fast and easy and very short game will succeed as multiplayer online ,and there wont be anymore massive like they were before
world raid /pvp fight for those raid etc (instanced is nice)but open world raid is also insanelly addictive.
men !we sure miss the MASSIVE part in massive multiplayer online game ,oh there are lot of player online for that given game but that doest make it massive,not many game are massive today ,
eve
darkfall (maybe)
what else .wow isnt one anymore,unless you lock your lvl at 60 and go raid the world dragon and announced it last month
where and when .ok if i see it like this then yes at lvl 60 wow is still and mmo.dont even know if dragon are still there tho for world raid.
the world pvp has changed, like someone said pvp has no more meaning. before you used to go to war (and still today in eve) over territory, or raid content or grind spots, or simply to invade another person's "keep/land"
then you come to the travel system, instant travel? wth? back in the days traveling was part of the game.
you might say, why would i want to press "forward" for 30 minutes before i actually get to play? well thats the problem... we didnt press forward for 30 minutes to play. getting there was part of the play. we had challenges, obstacles, and sometimes we would not make it. we didnt have to walk on a beat path marked with signs and arrows that bring us exactly to the front of the "destination". there where main roads between 2 major cities, or major camps, but if you wanted to go to a dragon cage you had to get out of that path and survive the wilderness. it was an actual adventure.
yes you had portals but only made by certain classes. or items that get used up. (again you had to rely on the community) made the world seemed big. now you press 2 buttons and you got from point a to point b in 1 loading screen.
i remember when SWG first came out when there where no mounts or vehicles. i found it awesome. going from Bestine to Anchorhead on foot getting ambushed by a bunch of tusken raiders. or fall on a nest of banthas or dewbacks.
now we just click and load and we are there. thank god its still dangerous to travel from point a to point b in eve online.
Comments
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
the problem is player got better .around the time bwl and all the other were nerfed if they had stayed un-nerfed player would have been happy
now the content got dumbed down and player became better so it went from hard to silly easy
since blizzard hadnt expected that it backfired .
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
Yea and i like not beeing completly safe all the time, knowing that i can get attacked by someone at all time. Thats when you make friends that can come and help you.
But i know what you mean, Aion is a bad example of open world pvp. DaoC is a good example of open world pvp
on another topic, as we see all the mmo developers beeing bought up (Mythic, Bioware, EA) or companys becoming to big for their own good (Activision Blizzard) will we ever see mmos that we players want or will there only be carbon copies of their previous games to lure us to buy their games even though their crap?
Yea and i like not beeing completly safe all the time, knowing that i can get attacked by someone at all time. Thats when you make friends that can come and help you.
But i know what you mean, Aion is a bad example of open world pvp. DaoC is a good example of open world pvp
on another topic, as we see all the mmo developers beeing bought up (Mythic, Bioware, EA) or companys becoming to big for their own good (Activision Blizzard) will we ever see mmos that we players want or will there only be carbon copies of their previous games to lure us to buy their games even though their crap?
mm there were so many unsuccessfull game that were carbon copy of wow that i dont believe there are any company willing to risk it.
if there is a team that might convince to do a revolutionary mmo its everquest first team since they did convince back then.
Its exactly the same in Lotro, while its not a hardcore game in any way, probably the most casual of them all, they dumb everything down to cater the casuals so they can reep the benefits from those that has figured everything out, worked hard for weeks to clear the instance and actually spent some time in the game. Preferably they want to get it for free from the nearest NPC (why do you care if i get the same stuff as you do)
I mean, what do you need the good gear for if you never do anything :P
You obviously haven't played LOTRO for a while. So-called 'casuals' have been up in arms ever since Mines of Moria because the best gear in LOTRO is found in raids that are gated by radiance gear requirements - and radiance gear is not easy to get for casual players. And the current best weapons (Lvl 65 2nd Age) require mats that only drop in fairly difficult 6-man and 12-man instances. If anything, many long-time LOTRO players are complaining that the game has become less casual-friendly. Of course, 'casual' is a relative term, so I'm sure a hard-core DF or EQ player will sneer at anything considered 'difficult' in LOTRO!
Its exactly the same in Lotro, while its not a hardcore game in any way, probably the most casual of them all, they dumb everything down to cater the casuals so they can reep the benefits from those that has figured everything out, worked hard for weeks to clear the instance and actually spent some time in the game. Preferably they want to get it for free from the nearest NPC (why do you care if i get the same stuff as you do)
I mean, what do you need the good gear for if you never do anything :P
You obviously haven't played LOTRO for a while. So-called 'casuals' have been up in arms ever since Mines of Moria because the best gear in LOTRO is found in raids that are gated by radiance gear requirements - and radiance gear is not easy to get for casual players. And the current best weapons (Lvl 65 2nd Age) require mats that only drop in fairly difficult 6-man and 12-man instances. If anything, many long-time LOTRO players are complaining that the game has become less casual-friendly. Of course, 'casual' is a relative term, so I'm sure a hard-core DF or EQ player will sneer at anything considered 'difficult' in LOTRO!
i wil probably give it a try since its avail at my local store and i ear lotr will get dx11 in first quater so it will be playing smoother.
Not only are oldschool players dying, we are actually 2 groups.
The players like OP that started with UO and player like me that started with Meridian 59 or Everquest (M59 in my case) are not the same kind of people. I would say that we are still as much OS as the UO gang, but we don't have so much in common anyways.
Game genres changes with time and right now are we in a Wow era. But that doesn't mean that the genre will continue like that in future, it is very possible that in 5 or 10 years will the Wow players sound just like you. Maybe console MMOs will be the huge thing then, the games might get harder again or anything else might happen, maybe people use Wii controllers in the future. Some UO things might come back.
The only thing certain is that the genre will change again sooner or later. Change isn't always bad but not everyone will be happy whatever happens.
I agree with the UO guys that endgame should have more player created stuff (guildcities for one thing), the endgame of current MMOs are rather limited and it will change one way or another in the future, but it is hard to say how.
A wise man once said "The future is like the butt of a baboon, colorful and full of crap" (sounds better in Swedish). What was will never again be but the same goes for what is now.
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
world raid dragon was very nice (since it wasnt instanced)
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
The depth of your delusion bafles me. You have this imaginary verison of WoW in your mind and refuse to realize that it does nto actually match the reality of the game.
WoW stopped adding 40mans because their customers found them tedious and the encounters not imaginative enough to warrant the massive raid sizes and months of farming required to progress through the content. It was not until AQ and Naxx that the fights got really interested and even then tehy could have been easily scaled back in size and maintain the challenge.
The gear differences in WoW between hardcore raiders, raiders and casuals are still significant. A casual WoW player will never have the best gear and probably not the second-best gear in the game. The only difference is that these gear differences are not as visible so someone not caring for the game is blind to them. Also players have become more knowledgeable about gear so merely having epics will not impress people as much as it in the vanilla days. However, if you have top notch gear those who care abotu the gear will still notice and be impressed by the content you have done.
The problem with the 'old days' of gaming is that they tend to look so pathetic now that we better understand why we play these games.
LOL
So you guys were stuck in MOLTEN CORE because the zone was too tedious? Quit making excuses. You casuals were horrible at the game and ruined it for the rest of us. You couldn't even clear MC trash, that is tedious, that your guild was bad?
And no, the gear difference isn't significant:
You might have a raid at difficulty level 1, gives you +100 HP item
Then you might have a raid at difficulty level 10, gives you a +105 HP item
Blizzard = bunch of sellouts to bad players who couldn't handle trivial raid content.
The games will always be where the money is. There's no changing it. Supply and demand.
Dying breed eh? Sure taking your sweet time about it.
Think you could hurry it up some? I'd like THAT instant gratification.
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Oh that's right I forgot there were no mmos before EQ. Put your little ego away.
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
men i sure missed what you talk about and it sound like ton of fun .wonder if we ll see some of this again one day
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Oh that's right I forgot there were no mmos before EQ. Put your little ego away.
you know what he meant lol,he mean 3D mmo
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Hate to tell you, but pvp even back in the "good ole days" was still just as meaningless as it is today. The only meaning is divined from the player base. The only difference between then and now was that then pvp was done for the sake of pvp (which is a form of player created content), and now pvp has various rewards and is usually placed in a setting created by dev teams.
Have to say I thoroughly enjoyed your post, I grew up on EQ1 before any expansions. Not quite as old as Ultima but I would still say it was old school vast world exc exc. Yes i did enjoy EQ1 and I would like it even more than WoW even today but the problem is SOE never found a way to keep people at lower levels, like if you tryed to go back to EQ1 right now you would be playing alone for a year inless you knew people to powerlevel you. Who the hell wants to powerlevel? It takes the entire fun out of the game, you feel like you didn't really accomplish anything once you get up in level because it didn't take very long at all to get up there. After playing WoW for so many years, I cannot even go back to EQ1. I remember when I had to message a group leader and sit on a waiting list for 2 hours just to get into the grind group in a certain area. Now its like immediate groups.
To much instancing gets to boring.
I remember on the interviews for AoC when they talked about instanced PvP and how it would be like counterstrike wich everyone would think is fun
All i could think was, really? i want stale pvp where i know exactly where the other players spawn, exactly where they will come from and no place to roam around without hitting walls?
Open world pvp is far superior to instanced pvp if you do it right, but thats another topic
Superior how? Whoever is the biggest dbag wins. Sorry but I prefer opponents that are aware we are going to do battle. Running around an open world hopeing to find someone engaged in battle isn't really pvp to me. That is like sucker punching someone as they walk down the street vs getting in a ring. But I prefer challenge to just winning.
World PVP in older MMORPGs meant huge wars between guilds that wanted to raid the same content.
It's not small scale PvP that occurs over gold mines, like in shit games such as WoW.
Sounds like you can't handle PVP as it is meant in real MMORPGs. You want crappy MMORPGs that don't have World PVP, and that have to instance PVP so you fight with people on random servers for no reason. It was so meaningless, they had to add Honor and Arena Points to get people to PVP. Even after that, the outcome of PVP is meaningless. The PVP that occurs in these games is boring, and does not even come close to the battles that occurred in older MMORPGs.
Battles in older MMORPGs mattered, the whole server knew about battles that were going on, and they knew about the outcome. The guilds that won gained respect with the whole server, and guilds everywhere would fear them. Guilds in these games would explicitly tell their members not to mess with certain guilds, because of the fear factor.
A person who likes Diablo 2 meaningless PVP probably does not understand the kind of PVP that went on in older MMORPGs.
In any case, PVP that is not part of a world does not belong in a world-based MMORPG. Go play Diablo 2 or an RTS game
Hate to tell you, but pvp even back in the "good ole days" was still just as meaningless as it is today. The only meaning is divined from the player base. The only difference between then and now was that then pvp was done for the sake of pvp (which is a form of player created content), and now pvp has various rewards and is usually placed in a setting created by dev teams.
No it wasn't.
In older MMORPGs, the PVP was connected with PVE. If your guild went to go raid something and another guild shows up and kills you, you basically lose your PVE content. The best or smartest guilds will succeed in PVE and PVP.
PVP is only done for the sake of PVP in meaningless games like WOW. Because PVE was instanced, the players had nothing to fight over, so they fought for the sake of fighting.
But in EQ, the PVE was not instanced. Players would show up to the same zone to raid and have to fight each other. The outcome was important and had an effect on the outcome of the server.
You can tell if a game has meaningless PVP: Do they need to add some reward for fighting other players? If so, the PVP is meaningless.
If the PVP was connected to the server and was meaningful, they don't need rewards. Players fight NATURALLY because there are DISPUTES over CONTENT.
Please learn your MMORPG history before talking, it's clear your only MMORPG under your belt is WOW
LOL
So you guys were stuck in MOLTEN CORE because the zone was too tedious? Quit making excuses. You casuals were horrible at the game and ruined it for the rest of us. You couldn't even clear MC trash, that is tedious, that your guild was bad?
And no, the gear difference isn't significant:
You might have a raid at difficulty level 1, gives you +100 HP item
Then you might have a raid at difficulty level 10, gives you a +105 HP item
Blizzard = bunch of sellouts to bad players who couldn't handle trivial raid content.
Molten Core was tedious because you guild would stuck in it for months after you 'solved' the instance and was able to clear it regularly in a couple hours. A guild who started to raid could beat Molten Core in a couple months if they had the pool of players to form the raids out of. However, you would be stuck going back there week after week for months to gear up the rest of the players in your guild. Heck, we were finishing BWL and still needed to go back to MC for the gear. We desperately wanted to stop doing MC but that would have meant that we would cut off any newer players from being able to join us in BWL and AQ. If yoru raiding guild stopped doing MC, the only way to get replacement raiders was to recruit from other raiding guilds.
MC was actually fairly easy once you get the raid structure organized in your guild and got some raiding experience under your belt. My ultra casual guild was able to beat it in about month and a half. It was the soul csrushing tedioum of having to farm it week after week that killed us.
As far as your gear difference 'numbers' they are laughable.
A tier 7 (starting WotlK raid set) mage head piece would have 54 stamina and 87 spellpower. It's Tier 10.5 (Icecrown 25man hardmode) equivalent has 139 stamina and 186 spellpower. The best tier helm a non-raiding mage can obtain (afer months of grinding) has 109 stamina and 140 spellpower. That's a 25% spellpower increase from 'serious non-raider' to 'elite harmode raider'.
You are not a dying breed. We are just a small minority of MMO players that enjoyed the older style MMOs that required more time and dedication to play. Some of the older games are hailed as Hardcore, often included things like XP loss on death, very limited quests, slower pace, less hand holding, hard controls, and sometimes PvP that facilitated fighting over resources, MOBS and killing weaker players.
if you look back you will see games that togethter struggled to maintain subscription levels over 600,000 total. The last 5 years of games has brought at least 10 times as many people into MMOs but many of them do not enjoy the old skool playsyle of game. The want more FUN less challenge, they want things to be quick and require less time investment, they want content open to everyone that doesn't restrict things based on skill of the players or the ability of players to work together as a team.
So in the end you have an MMO daycare center that players throw tons of money at and a small group of "old skool" players that wish someone would make a challenging MMO for adults. Hopefully over time as technology becomes cheaper we will see more niche MMOs and finally something for us "old skool" players to call Home, a place where a tough challenge requiring dedication is FUN.
Now this made me laugh.
MMO history as long as it is EQ and after huh? Maybe you should stop talking?
i dont mind simple mmo!but there are game for that free realm is the ideal mmo for that
why take vanilla wow (wich was good then)and change it to basicly what free realm is but in the p2p world
so only fast and easy and very short game will succeed as multiplayer online ,and there wont be anymore massive like they were before
world raid /pvp fight for those raid etc (instanced is nice)but open world raid is also insanelly addictive.
men !we sure miss the MASSIVE part in massive multiplayer online game ,oh there are lot of player online for that given game but that doest make it massive,not many game are massive today ,
eve
darkfall (maybe)
what else .wow isnt one anymore,unless you lock your lvl at 60 and go raid the world dragon and announced it last month
where and when .ok if i see it like this then yes at lvl 60 wow is still and mmo.dont even know if dragon are still there tho for world raid.
the world pvp has changed, like someone said pvp has no more meaning. before you used to go to war (and still today in eve) over territory, or raid content or grind spots, or simply to invade another person's "keep/land"
then you come to the travel system, instant travel? wth? back in the days traveling was part of the game.
you might say, why would i want to press "forward" for 30 minutes before i actually get to play? well thats the problem... we didnt press forward for 30 minutes to play. getting there was part of the play. we had challenges, obstacles, and sometimes we would not make it. we didnt have to walk on a beat path marked with signs and arrows that bring us exactly to the front of the "destination". there where main roads between 2 major cities, or major camps, but if you wanted to go to a dragon cage you had to get out of that path and survive the wilderness. it was an actual adventure.
yes you had portals but only made by certain classes. or items that get used up. (again you had to rely on the community) made the world seemed big. now you press 2 buttons and you got from point a to point b in 1 loading screen.
i remember when SWG first came out when there where no mounts or vehicles. i found it awesome. going from Bestine to Anchorhead on foot getting ambushed by a bunch of tusken raiders. or fall on a nest of banthas or dewbacks.
now we just click and load and we are there. thank god its still dangerous to travel from point a to point b in eve online.