In the end it comes to that 5% when two equal players, but unequal characters, fight each other. So the other one has the edge - albeit small but still. It is inherently unfair and no amount of reasoning can change that.
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This shows nothing, in Eve, there is a huge difference between being fitted in a ship for PvP and PvE. That 100 million SP character was flying a T1 Battleship, most likely with PvE fittings, if he was flying a T2 Battlecruiser, or even T3 Cruiser, then he would have most likely blown that Deimos out of the water (space?).
Er, yeah, that's the point of EVE, to fit the right ship for the right situation and kill your opponent.
I know what you are going to say, yes player skill matters, but that is true for most of any game. Difference is that character skill and equipment matters just as much in Eve and there is no way you gonna tell me that a 100 mil SP character, trained for PvP, would not have a advantage over a 20 mil SP one.
I have 50M SP's on my character, but a career killboard count of ......less than 50. There are people who have been playing less than a year who have killboard counts in the hundreds and I assure you, many of them could destroy me in PVP because their PVP skill far exceeds mine.
The difference becomes even larger when you think about a 3-4 mil SP character, which can only fly T1 ships and T1 modules against a 20 mil SP in a T2 ship and decked out in all T2 fittings.
You know what, those people I mentioned above, some of them could kill me in a T1 ship vs my T2, because again, not all players are equally skilled in EVE PVP. (in fact, few really are)
Also it is quite ironic that you say that you dont need to train up but only the right tool. What tool you can and you cannot use is directly decided by your skills, which you DO need to train up for.
But nothing says you have a "right" to be able to use every tool from the get go. But being able to fly a small handful off good ships can make you a very effective killer (or PVE'er for that matter) and as you mature in the game you'll have ever increasing options.
You are a very unusual EVE player, in that you seem to really dislike the game, and look at things completely differently that most of us who understand the game's design and enjoy the way its implemented.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nowdays in WoW with random instances , gearing up its a joke within 1 week you can have end game raiding gear which was proved by too many players already.
And yes in EVE support skills are key i know that but there is diffrence for new players to be "meatballs " or be " competitive"
And it shows just how much of a joke wow is, its one of the reasons a lot of people I know quit playing it. Some like a challenge, some dont. Others prefer a bit of both.
Personally I prefer a bit of both, I want a challenge without having to sweat blood and tears over it, Personally I think they should make it a bit easier for new players. the tutorials for combat pilots should level some of your much needed basic skills to 3 or something similar, but thats just something that I feel would help people get into the game faster.
Most new pilots quit before they realise that there ships were gimped by inadequate skills.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Hoobley[/i] [b] Even though you won't be as experienced or be able to do as much as someone who's been playing longer[/b][/quote]
rofl, I don't even have to debate this, you're doing it for me.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Nowdays in WoW with random instances , gearing up its a joke within 1 week you can have end game raiding gear which was proved by too many players already.
And yes in EVE support skills are key i know that but there is diffrence for new players to be "meatballs " or be " competitive"
And it shows just how much of a joke wow is, its one of the reasons a lot of people I know quit playing it. Some like a challenge, some dont. Others prefer a bit of both.
Personally I prefer a bit of both, I want a challenge without having to sweat blood and tears over it, Personally I think they should make it a bit easier for new players. the tutorials for combat pilots should level some of your much needed basic skills to 3 or something similar, but thats just something that I feel would help people get into the game faster.
Most new pilots quit before they realise that there ships were gimped by inadequate skills.
Eve has a harsh learning curve, this can be helped a lot by joining a player corporation as there will be players telling you what to do. But there is no getting away from it, Eve is hard. However I do not believe the difference between old and new players is what makes it hard.
mmmmmm. In my day...... (Monty Python skit for those that don't know the reference) you started with between 60-120k exp in skills depending on bloodline and starter profession choices, the tutorials were....bad....and you really had to rely on the people to give you tips when you first started unless you got lucky and found eve u early.
Today, you get the skill bonus, starter professions/bloodlines aren't important, you can recover standings with any faction and the tutorials are.....better... than they were
Eve's already come a long way for new starters.
To my mind, Eve's all about the attitude you play it with.
(wanders off waffling about cardboard boxes and shoes)
In the end it comes to that 5% when two equal players, but unequal characters, fight each other. So the other one has the edge - albeit small but still. It is inherently unfair and no amount of reasoning can change that.
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
Well yes. That is true. Eve is a one big zergfest/gankfest.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
In the end it comes to that 5% when two equal players, but unequal characters, fight each other. So the other one has the edge - albeit small but still. It is inherently unfair and no amount of reasoning can change that.
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
Well yes. That is true. Eve is a one big zergfest/gankfest.
So you go from one end of the spectrum and you end up at the other end?
Eve PVP is the most dynamic and player skill involved PVP I have ever encountered in an MMO. Knowing when to engage and when to run like a madman is actually an important aspect.
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
Name me a game with classes and levels where say a level 10 character can hit say a level 50 and has a fair chance of winning in a 1v1?
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
The difference between a level 4 and a level 5 skill is usually about 5%, sometimes less. You are saying that age and experience should make no difference whatsoever? Then why play an MMO with character advancement?
Name me a game with classes and levels where say a level 10 character can hit say a level 50 and has a fair chance of winning in a 1v1?
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
What advantage?
Here's an example.
Player A is flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 60 million SP but only 5 million of those Sp affect Minmatar assault frigates.
Player B is also flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 6 million SP 5 million of those SP affect Minmatar Assualt frigates.
So what we have is a 5mill sp AF vs a 5mill sp AF who has the advantage in this random one on one encounter?
Name me a game with classes and levels where say a level 10 character can hit say a level 50 and has a fair chance of winning in a 1v1?
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
What advantage?
Here's an example.
Player A is flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 60 million SP but only 5 million of those Sp affect Minmatar assault frigates.
Player B is also flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 6 million SP 5 million of those SP affect Minmatar Assualt frigates.
So what we have is a 5mill sp AF vs a 5mill sp AF who has the advantage in this random one on one encounter?
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible. Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
It is, in fact, so rare that it can be considered non-existent. EVE is a game of tactics. It is also a game where there is no 'best gear' for each slot. An EVE player fits their ship based on both what their skills are and their current goal/agenda is, Quirhid.
People who are used to playing mainstream MMOs usually have a lot of trouble adjusting to this. In most MMOs, a player can ask in chat "I'm class x and level y. What weapon is best for me for PvP?" And there's maybe one or two weapons that will get suggested.
In EVE, the responses would be:
What skills do you have trained?
Are you solo or in a group?
What kind of ships are you hunting?
Add to that, each person has their own tactics they would use. Tell 20 EVE players to fit a Rifter for PVP, with no other information, and you will have 20 different loadouts, even if they all had every skill trained to 5.
A one on one encounter between two people with ships fit with the same modules, using the same ammo and piloted by characters having the same exact skills is so insanely improbably that I'd be very interested in finding out which has a higher chance of occurring during a session of playing EVE Online - the encounter that you suggest, Quirhid, or getting hit by lightning.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
Er did you really use the word "fair" in describing combat in EVE?
There's an old saying, If you find yourself in a fair fight you are doing something wrong.
A player has more skill, skill points, better ship than you? Bring 2 friends and send him home in his pod.
If I think the odds are ever turning against me and there's a chance to escape, expect me to be gone.
In EVE there are winners who collect the loot and losers who go fit another ship.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its not about SP or who has the bigger E-Penis.... Play the game as if you were in it, yes to be the best it takes time but atleast you can play the damn game without "grinding out skills". If you want to mine then mine if you wanna hunt then do that. Find your place and play the damn game. It has a bit of a learning curve but if your looking for EASY then play WoW or something else.
If you expect to be able to put in a year of work and be better then someone who has put in 5 years then guess what you'll lose in every game. Your toon will not be as complete but you can match up with him in certain ways.
If you have a level 80 and he has 10 level 80's you know what your level 80 will match up with one of his. He just has more of them. In eve, all his level 80s are on one toon most likely. Its not rocket science...
Imerse yourself in the game and enjoy it. Its not all about ISK or SP's
Ever just flew around to see what the hell the next galaxy looks like? Hmmmm I wonder what mining area has ore and how much. I wonder if the next one will be green , or maybe filled with combatants. Enjoy the shit dont stress because your not "the best" because there is always someone better!!!!
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ... If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible. Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
I see that you missed the point of my first post.
But do read the following blog "Emotional Attachment of a Game's Rules". I'm not saying that Eve is broken like the card game mentioned in the blog but many players in many games don't like changes even when the changes are good. They are simply too used to the old ways of doing things and everything new is met with hostility.
What I believe is that as you said "we like it this way" is only what you're accustomed to. It might not be the best thing around and you don't know what you might like better.
All I am doing is pointing out that the original sentece keeps true: You can't catch up. What is quite amusing about this is that the original post is found here, in forums discussing Eve, likely to be read by Eve players. You'll know what the outcome will be: majority will agree with you. Post this to another forum and you'll get a different welcome.
How did I happen to read this? Well, I am an Eve player, but I don't look at Eve and see the Holy Grail. I see a game with the good and, more importantly, the bad.
And despite the source of that blog, I'm not a Jumpgate fanboi either, so throw away you prejudice.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Jesus H Christ people. This game is about one word and one word only.
Immersion...
Its not about SP or who has the bigger E-Penis.... Play the game as if you were in it, yes to be the best it takes time but atleast you can play the damn game without "grinding out skills". If you want to mine then mine if you wanna hunt then do that. Find you place and play the damn game. It has a bit of a learnign curve but if your looking for EASY then play WoW or something else.
If you expect to be able to put in a year of work and be better then someone who has put in 5 years then guess what you'll lose in ever game. Your toon will not be as complete but you can match up with him in certain ways.
If you have a level 80 and he has 10 level 80's you know what your level 80 will match up with one of his. He just has more of them. In eve all his level 80s are on one toon most likely. Its not rocket science...
Imerse yourself in the game and enjoy it. Its not all about ISK or SP's
Ever just flew around to see what the hell the next galaxy looks like? Hmmmm I wonder what mining area has ore and how much. I wonder if the next one will be green , or maybe filled with combatants. Enjoy the shit dont stress because your not "the best" because there is always someone better!!!!
All people see is that SP number and since their number won't ever be equal to or higher than a veteran's, it's obviously a broken game with no fun to be had what-so-ever.
Jesus H Christ people. This game is about one word and one word only.
Immersion...
Its not about SP or who has the bigger E-Penis.... Play the game as if you were in it, yes to be the best it takes time but atleast you can play the damn game without "grinding out skills". If you want to mine then mine if you wanna hunt then do that. Find your place and play the damn game. It has a bit of a learning curve but if your looking for EASY then play WoW or something else.
If you expect to be able to put in a year of work and be better then someone who has put in 5 years then guess what you'll lose in every game. Your toon will not be as complete but you can match up with him in certain ways.
If you have a level 80 and he has 10 level 80's you know what your level 80 will match up with one of his. He just has more of them. In eve, all his level 80s are on one toon most likely. Its not rocket science...
Imerse yourself in the game and enjoy it. Its not all about ISK or SP's
Ever just flew around to see what the hell the next galaxy looks like? Hmmmm I wonder what mining area has ore and how much. I wonder if the next one will be green , or maybe filled with combatants. Enjoy the shit dont stress because your not "the best" because there is always someone better!!!!
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ... If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible. Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
I see that you missed the point of my first post.
But do read the following blog "Emotional Attachment of a Game's Rules". I'm not saying that Eve is broken like the card game mentioned in the blog but many players in many games don't like changes even when the changes are good. They are simply too used to the old ways of doing things and everything new is met with hostility.
What I believe is that as you said "we like it this way" is only what you're accustomed to. It might not be the best thing around and you don't know what you might like better.
All I am doing is pointing out that the original sentece keeps true: You can't catch up. What is quite amusing about this is that the original post is found here, in forums discussing Eve, likely to be read by Eve players. You'll know what the outcome will be: majority will agree with you. Post this to another forum and you'll get a different welcome.
How did I happen to read this? Well, I am an Eve player, but I don't look at Eve and see the Holy Grail. I see a game with the good and, more importantly, the bad.
And despite the source of that blog, I'm not a Jumpgate fanboi either, so throw away you prejudice.
I guess I am a fanboi, I am also a Jumpgate fanboi and I love the leveling in that game.
The skill system in eve had a recent change to it, you get 100% skill boost for the first 1.5 million skill points, this is a fantastic change and should help new players get up to speed. Changing the system drastically at this point would be strange at best and a disaster at worst.
Comments
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This shows nothing, in Eve, there is a huge difference between being fitted in a ship for PvP and PvE. That 100 million SP character was flying a T1 Battleship, most likely with PvE fittings, if he was flying a T2 Battlecruiser, or even T3 Cruiser, then he would have most likely blown that Deimos out of the water (space?).
Er, yeah, that's the point of EVE, to fit the right ship for the right situation and kill your opponent.
I know what you are going to say, yes player skill matters, but that is true for most of any game. Difference is that character skill and equipment matters just as much in Eve and there is no way you gonna tell me that a 100 mil SP character, trained for PvP, would not have a advantage over a 20 mil SP one.
I have 50M SP's on my character, but a career killboard count of ......less than 50. There are people who have been playing less than a year who have killboard counts in the hundreds and I assure you, many of them could destroy me in PVP because their PVP skill far exceeds mine.
The difference becomes even larger when you think about a 3-4 mil SP character, which can only fly T1 ships and T1 modules against a 20 mil SP in a T2 ship and decked out in all T2 fittings.
You know what, those people I mentioned above, some of them could kill me in a T1 ship vs my T2, because again, not all players are equally skilled in EVE PVP. (in fact, few really are)
Also it is quite ironic that you say that you dont need to train up but only the right tool. What tool you can and you cannot use is directly decided by your skills, which you DO need to train up for.
But nothing says you have a "right" to be able to use every tool from the get go. But being able to fly a small handful off good ships can make you a very effective killer (or PVE'er for that matter) and as you mature in the game you'll have ever increasing options.
You are a very unusual EVE player, in that you seem to really dislike the game, and look at things completely differently that most of us who understand the game's design and enjoy the way its implemented.
Why play if it isn't fun?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And it shows just how much of a joke wow is, its one of the reasons a lot of people I know quit playing it. Some like a challenge, some dont. Others prefer a bit of both.
Personally I prefer a bit of both, I want a challenge without having to sweat blood and tears over it, Personally I think they should make it a bit easier for new players. the tutorials for combat pilots should level some of your much needed basic skills to 3 or something similar, but thats just something that I feel would help people get into the game faster.
Most new pilots quit before they realise that there ships were gimped by inadequate skills.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Hoobley[/i] [b] Even though you won't be as experienced or be able to do as much as someone who's been playing longer[/b][/quote]
rofl, I don't even have to debate this, you're doing it for me.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
And it shows just how much of a joke wow is, its one of the reasons a lot of people I know quit playing it. Some like a challenge, some dont. Others prefer a bit of both.
Personally I prefer a bit of both, I want a challenge without having to sweat blood and tears over it, Personally I think they should make it a bit easier for new players. the tutorials for combat pilots should level some of your much needed basic skills to 3 or something similar, but thats just something that I feel would help people get into the game faster.
Most new pilots quit before they realise that there ships were gimped by inadequate skills.
Eve has a harsh learning curve, this can be helped a lot by joining a player corporation as there will be players telling you what to do. But there is no getting away from it, Eve is hard. However I do not believe the difference between old and new players is what makes it hard.
mmmmmm. In my day...... (Monty Python skit for those that don't know the reference) you started with between 60-120k exp in skills depending on bloodline and starter profession choices, the tutorials were....bad....and you really had to rely on the people to give you tips when you first started unless you got lucky and found eve u early.
Today, you get the skill bonus, starter professions/bloodlines aren't important, you can recover standings with any faction and the tutorials are.....better... than they were
Eve's already come a long way for new starters.
To my mind, Eve's all about the attitude you play it with.
(wanders off waffling about cardboard boxes and shoes)
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
Well yes. That is true. Eve is a one big zergfest/gankfest.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You talk of reasoning but base your entire argument on the least possible combat scenario in EVE.
Well yes. That is true. Eve is a one big zergfest/gankfest.
So you go from one end of the spectrum and you end up at the other end?
Eve PVP is the most dynamic and player skill involved PVP I have ever encountered in an MMO. Knowing when to engage and when to run like a madman is actually an important aspect.
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
Name me a game with classes and levels where say a level 10 character can hit say a level 50 and has a fair chance of winning in a 1v1?
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
or even better, where 10 lvl 10 characters can steamroll any level character.
Depending on ship class you can easily catch a veteran player.
Only advantage a veteran will have is more ship options and experience.
I would be more worried about the older players experience if I were you guys.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
The difference between a level 4 and a level 5 skill is usually about 5%, sometimes less. You are saying that age and experience should make no difference whatsoever? Then why play an MMO with character advancement?
Edit:should have said mmoRPG
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
What advantage?
Here's an example.
Player A is flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 60 million SP but only 5 million of those Sp affect Minmatar assault frigates.
Player B is also flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 6 million SP 5 million of those SP affect Minmatar Assualt frigates.
So what we have is a 5mill sp AF vs a 5mill sp AF who has the advantage in this random one on one encounter?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
But still those 2 characters will have 2 same skill pool which is not happen in EVE where older player will always have some adventage, i'm not talk about gear here only pure skill pool.
What advantage?
Here's an example.
Player A is flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 60 million SP but only 5 million of those Sp affect Minmatar assault frigates.
Player B is also flying a Minmatar Assault frigate. He has about 6 million SP 5 million of those SP affect Minmatar Assualt frigates.
So what we have is a 5mill sp AF vs a 5mill sp AF who has the advantage in this random one on one encounter?
The one with the knife!
It is, in fact, so rare that it can be considered non-existent. EVE is a game of tactics. It is also a game where there is no 'best gear' for each slot. An EVE player fits their ship based on both what their skills are and their current goal/agenda is, Quirhid.
People who are used to playing mainstream MMOs usually have a lot of trouble adjusting to this. In most MMOs, a player can ask in chat "I'm class x and level y. What weapon is best for me for PvP?" And there's maybe one or two weapons that will get suggested.
In EVE, the responses would be:
What skills do you have trained?
Are you solo or in a group?
What kind of ships are you hunting?
Add to that, each person has their own tactics they would use. Tell 20 EVE players to fit a Rifter for PVP, with no other information, and you will have 20 different loadouts, even if they all had every skill trained to 5.
A one on one encounter between two people with ships fit with the same modules, using the same ammo and piloted by characters having the same exact skills is so insanely improbably that I'd be very interested in finding out which has a higher chance of occurring during a session of playing EVE Online - the encounter that you suggest, Quirhid, or getting hit by lightning.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I sometimes fly a Rifter, I have killed Battlecruisers in that ship. I fit the Rifter with cheap tech lvl 1 equipment because I loose alot. In essence I am downgrading my character to a lvl 10 character in wow.
A new player training for the Rifter to do the same thing I do, the same thing many veteran players do, will take less than 4 months. He will most likely come away with an even win/loss against myself in my Rifter.
And sure, the 5% here and there give an edge but not as much as a player flying a ship he knows how to fly.
EDIT: Oh, if you did not know the Rifter is a cheap Frigate, my fit barely goes above 2 million isk.
Oh how nice of you to point that out. Ofcourse I'm a newb if I don't agree with you. ...
If a more experienced character wins 60%, or even 51% of the time - that is called an edge. If you say something like: "The difference is so minimal that it is nonexistent" - you are wrong. Even when there's an extremely low chance to win in the lottery, you cannot say it is impossible.
Only defense I can accept is that, in practice, these "fair fights" are extremely rare in Eve and therefore the effect of this "unfairness" stays low. - But it is not nonexistent.
Er did you really use the word "fair" in describing combat in EVE?
There's an old saying, If you find yourself in a fair fight you are doing something wrong.
A player has more skill, skill points, better ship than you? Bring 2 friends and send him home in his pod.
If I think the odds are ever turning against me and there's a chance to escape, expect me to be gone.
In EVE there are winners who collect the loot and losers who go fit another ship.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In EVE there are winners who collect the loot and losers who go fit another ship.
And the losers who cry "unfair!" and ragequit.
Jesus H Christ people.
This game is about one word and one word only.
Immersion...
Its not about SP or who has the bigger E-Penis.... Play the game as if you were in it, yes to be the best it takes time but atleast you can play the damn game without "grinding out skills". If you want to mine then mine if you wanna hunt then do that. Find your place and play the damn game. It has a bit of a learning curve but if your looking for EASY then play WoW or something else.
If you expect to be able to put in a year of work and be better then someone who has put in 5 years then guess what you'll lose in every game. Your toon will not be as complete but you can match up with him in certain ways.
If you have a level 80 and he has 10 level 80's you know what your level 80 will match up with one of his. He just has more of them. In eve, all his level 80s are on one toon most likely. Its not rocket science...
Imerse yourself in the game and enjoy it. Its not all about ISK or SP's
Ever just flew around to see what the hell the next galaxy looks like? Hmmmm I wonder what mining area has ore and how much. I wonder if the next one will be green , or maybe filled with combatants. Enjoy the shit dont stress because your not "the best" because there is always someone better!!!!
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
I see that you missed the point of my first post.
But do read the following blog "Emotional Attachment of a Game's Rules". I'm not saying that Eve is broken like the card game mentioned in the blog but many players in many games don't like changes even when the changes are good. They are simply too used to the old ways of doing things and everything new is met with hostility.
What I believe is that as you said "we like it this way" is only what you're accustomed to. It might not be the best thing around and you don't know what you might like better.
All I am doing is pointing out that the original sentece keeps true: You can't catch up. What is quite amusing about this is that the original post is found here, in forums discussing Eve, likely to be read by Eve players. You'll know what the outcome will be: majority will agree with you. Post this to another forum and you'll get a different welcome.
How did I happen to read this? Well, I am an Eve player, but I don't look at Eve and see the Holy Grail. I see a game with the good and, more importantly, the bad.
And despite the source of that blog, I'm not a Jumpgate fanboi either, so throw away you prejudice.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
All people see is that SP number and since their number won't ever be equal to or higher than a veteran's, it's obviously a broken game with no fun to be had what-so-ever.
/thread
So you essentially believe that a player who has 7 years of EVE experience should not have an edge? This is not the case since a player flying a Rifter can max out in much shorter time than 7 years.
I guess you can just continue not liking EVE as we like it this way.
I see that you missed the point of my first post.
But do read the following blog "Emotional Attachment of a Game's Rules". I'm not saying that Eve is broken like the card game mentioned in the blog but many players in many games don't like changes even when the changes are good. They are simply too used to the old ways of doing things and everything new is met with hostility.
What I believe is that as you said "we like it this way" is only what you're accustomed to. It might not be the best thing around and you don't know what you might like better.
All I am doing is pointing out that the original sentece keeps true: You can't catch up. What is quite amusing about this is that the original post is found here, in forums discussing Eve, likely to be read by Eve players. You'll know what the outcome will be: majority will agree with you. Post this to another forum and you'll get a different welcome.
How did I happen to read this? Well, I am an Eve player, but I don't look at Eve and see the Holy Grail. I see a game with the good and, more importantly, the bad.
And despite the source of that blog, I'm not a Jumpgate fanboi either, so throw away you prejudice.
I guess I am a fanboi, I am also a Jumpgate fanboi and I love the leveling in that game.
The skill system in eve had a recent change to it, you get 100% skill boost for the first 1.5 million skill points, this is a fantastic change and should help new players get up to speed. Changing the system drastically at this point would be strange at best and a disaster at worst.
Besides, you can catch up.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=734105