Well, there's always going to be leechers. In this particular case, it's gaming. What if I considered the starving people of the world who we must constantly donate to as leechers? That's a far less popular view. Why? Either way, in the end, they're not contributing to society, right? While "hardcore" gaming is a choice, being poor or sick in Africa is not. But the end result is the same, isn't it? Perhaps those "hardcore" gamers should just be ignored, since there are billions of people on this planet, most of whom are willing to contribute. If you want to try to convince them that they should only play 1-3 hours a day, go ahead. Maybe a few will listen to you. But most won't. I doubt there's such a thing as gaming "addiction". I think people choose how much they play and must deal with the consequences. Especially if they receive fair warning of what might happen if they go down that path (hardcore gaming). Some turn out okay and don't regret their choice while others end up depressed or with a self-inflicted bullet in their brain. Either way, the game company doesn't cast some evil spell on them, add some brain-altering chemical into the game, or do anything else that would cause addiction. People need to be responsible, aye? I think serving God is a meaningful life, which means that I have to balance that with social activities and, of course, playing MMOs. Right now, I play right around 1-3 hours a day. But I can understand if someone chose to play more than that. It's their life. I take the same view on drugs: legalize them (because something illegal is going to be in higher demand and is going to attract more crime than something that is legal, nevermind the potential revenue if the U.S. started growing certain drugs) and let people do whatever they want to themselves. Even in today's society of moral degradation and "If it feels good, do it!" mentality, I think most people will choose to be responsible.
Oh, I'm all for freedom of choice, and I'm with you about drugs too. I'm quite a liberal, but what I'm talking about isn't a freedom of choice thing. I, of course, believe people have the right to choose how many hours they want to play at a time, just as I believe people have the right to use drugs, as long as they aren't directly hurting others by using them. However, I believe if a person chooses to live a certain way, they shouldn't push the blame on others for certain inadequecies in their life. For example, if a game releases with so many hours of content and a person playing an average of 1-3 hours a day can reach that content cap around the time of the next content patch, then I don't think the unhealthy gamers have a right to complain about a lack of content, repetitiveness, or boredom. It should go without saying that playing the same game day in and day out for several hours a day will get boring. I'd worry about a persons intelligence if they didn't get bored with something after that much repetition.
So we agree, that people should have the right to choose, but in return should live with the consequences of their actions? Meaning, they shouldn't complain about things that are a result of their actions.
Actually, most MMOs are played in 1-3 hour stints, and are designed as such. I will say that STO does remain much more entertaining if you take your time with it though, but it is the exception, not the rule. MMOs are meant to be played however long they remain fun (within reason of course). Some people are simply intent to burn themselves out however because they feel the need to be "competitive" in some fashion rather than simply have fun with the game and do the best they can.
Well, there's always going to be leechers. In this particular case, it's gaming. What if I considered the starving people of the world who we must constantly donate to as leechers? That's a far less popular view. Why? Either way, in the end, they're not contributing to society, right? While "hardcore" gaming is a choice, being poor or sick in Africa is not. But the end result is the same, isn't it? Perhaps those "hardcore" gamers should just be ignored, since there are billions of people on this planet, most of whom are willing to contribute. If you want to try to convince them that they should only play 1-3 hours a day, go ahead. Maybe a few will listen to you. But most won't. I doubt there's such a thing as gaming "addiction". I think people choose how much they play and must deal with the consequences. Especially if they receive fair warning of what might happen if they go down that path (hardcore gaming). Some turn out okay and don't regret their choice while others end up depressed or with a self-inflicted bullet in their brain. Either way, the game company doesn't cast some evil spell on them, add some brain-altering chemical into the game, or do anything else that would cause addiction. People need to be responsible, aye? I think serving God is a meaningful life, which means that I have to balance that with social activities and, of course, playing MMOs. Right now, I play right around 1-3 hours a day. But I can understand if someone chose to play more than that. It's their life. I take the same view on drugs: legalize them (because something illegal is going to be in higher demand and is going to attract more crime than something that is legal, nevermind the potential revenue if the U.S. started growing certain drugs) and let people do whatever they want to themselves. Even in today's society of moral degradation and "If it feels good, do it!" mentality, I think most people will choose to be responsible.
Oh, I'm all for freedom of choice, and I'm with you about drugs too. I'm quite a liberal, but what I'm talking about isn't a freedom of choice thing. I, of course, believe people have the right to choose how many hours they want to play at a time, just as I believe people have the right to use drugs, as long as they aren't directly hurting others by using them. However, I believe if a person chooses to live a certain way, they shouldn't push the blame on others for certain inadequecies in their life. For example, if a game releases with so many hours of content and a person playing an average of 1-3 hours a day can reach that content cap around the time of the next content patch, then I don't think the unhealthy gamers have a right to complain about a lack of content, repetitiveness, or boredom. It should go without saying that playing the same game day in and day out for several hours a day will get boring. I'd worry about a persons intelligence if they didn't get bored with something after that much repetition.
So we agree, that people should have the right to choose, but in return should live with the consequences of their actions? Meaning, they shouldn't complain about things that are a result of their actions.
They can complain all they want. No one will stop them. Frankly, I'd question if it wouldn't be better if a dev would cater to their content demands (if possible). We all want more content, but the hardcore want it more than casuals because they need it first (since they blow through all the normal content). If a game company can pump out quality content at a rate which satiates the hardcore, everyone wins. I don't really think that's possible, though, because I doubt hardcores will ever be satisfied. So perhaps the only answer is, as suggested so many times here, a "lack" of content - a sandbox, where the developers focus on giving you tools to create content instead of the actual content itself.
I agree with the principle of the matter. If you're driving three times as fast as the guy next to you on a short road, you're going to reach the end first and fly off the cliff. It's your fault that you kept speeding even though the bridge across the canyon hasn't been built yet.
Originally posted by nate1980 Originally posted by MuffinStump I am not casting judgement on anyone but I will say that I find much of the talk about societal 'duty' somewhat amusing when the average American watches around 30 hours a week of television (according to various reports - and I believe the numbers are higher these days actually) and the hardcore mmorpg player shows a massive decrease in television hours that corresponds directly to playtime. This playtime should also be acknowledged as somewhat 'interactive' as compared to television viewing and net surfing. I actually converse with real life friends online and much of the time see them out and about later at the gym for a pickup game or a bar. We talk in Vent about where we are going to meet to watch the game while killing orcs online. I don't spend massive amounts of time in-game or in front of the tv but I can't fail to notice that it isn't really that much further out from the norm. Just don't make it sound as if the hardcore are that much worse than most folks sitting in front of the tube.
Sitting around playing video games for 30 hours a week is no different than watching TV for 30 hours a week. However, I don't believe the average American watches 30 hours of T.V. a week. What source are you basing this on? Even if it is true, do you really want to bring the argument, "well he's doing it, so why can't we?" Do you really want to compare yourself to the "average American?" A recent article in my local newspaper said that 60-70% (can't remember exact figure) is obese and the number is rising. Does that mean I'm going to go get fat? Now I'm not talking about "duty" either. The only duty one has is to himself. What I'm talking about is when I face death, and take a look at the past, I want to say I made something of myself and improved the world in some way. If you or anyone else wants to sit on their death bed and say, "I was lvl 80 first in WoW, had the most PvP kills in Darkfall, and had uber gear, " then fine. However, don't expect me to consider hardcore gaming a viable alternative to healthy gaming when consideration or discussions are being made about how much content is enough content and how often should content patches be released.
Obviously I don't think either playing a game or watching tv to excess is particularly healthy as evidenced by the core of my posts. I was simply stating that perhaps it should be put into perspective where we see the general nature of our society and that calling out gamers tends to be the easy mark.
There are hardcores in every hobby. Sports fans, online poker players, blogsters, car freaks, military buffs, etc.
The real point about any of this is in the comparison of different mmorpgs in how they handle the various types of mmo players. Some handle rapid leveling and endgame content near release far better than others and it is likely indicative of their overall progress/commitment to the game. A failure to present 'late game' content near release is simply a decision that an mmo must determine in its overall business model.
It may not hurt them at all but at least there can be a discussion about timetables and quality of expansion.
Sorry but that's stupid why should people play it only 1-3 hours a day just because the devs didn't create a big game? It's not people's fault that games nowadays are becoming shorter and/or incomplete.
Agreed. To each their own. If someone wants to play for 10 hours a day, fine. If more MMOs were made with the sandbox concept this wouldn't be a problem. Of course people are going to get bored of the same roller-coasters over and over if you get what I'm saying;)
I heard that the average American spends 5 hours a day watching TV (on CNN). That's 35 hours a week. Honestly spending 40 hours or even 50 hours a week on your favorite hobby isn't as bad as you might think, although some people do take it too far (myself include) and spend 70+ hours a week gaming.
To think I should only be playing a MMO 1-3 hours a day... people spend a lot more time on a hobby than that typically. Considering playing MMOs is a relatively cheap value for your entertainment I don't see why I need to limit myself to 1-3 hours a day if I have enough free time.
@Nate you question a person's intelligence if they spend that much time doing a repetitive hobby. What about learning a new language (which is full of repetition), or reading a certain genre of a novel, or people who enjoy their work which is typically 40 hours a week? Do you question their intelligence too? I'm also not one to complain about lack of content unless a game is released in an unfinished state (like AoC was). But, there are examples of companies that can release enough content to appeal to the hardcore crowd before it all becomes too repetitive like Blizzard (WoW) or SoE (EQ and EQ II), so it can be done, and we have every right to expect those kind of updates from other companies.
I always love how, in threads like this, when anyone suggests moderation, you always have the people coming out of the woodwork screaming "we are hardcore, we are pathetic, we have no lives!" like it's something to be proud of. In all likelihood, the OP is entirely correct, MMOs are best played 1-3 hours a day, a couple of days a week. They are not a substitute for real life, they are a hobby, nothing more. Now try telling that to the losers who live vicariously through online games.
Gaming is a way of life IMO, so who cares if I would play 6-8 hours a day or 1-3. I say to each their own, and I wish more people would think that way. Who cares what other people do, just care what you do and live how you want to.
But its true games now days are ment to be played 1-3 if you want to not get to cap in a few weeks. If I would have played that many hours in FFXI I would have never gotten anywhere in that game.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings.
So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
I've never really been a group over the individual type of person because the group, in the end is made up of individuals. Chances are that at some point some part of that group will be sacrificed for the greater good and I'm pretty sure that no one wants to have what they hold dear sacrificed.
Also, even though you say that gaming a meaningless I would have to argue that this in the end is subjective.
Truth be told, I think that going to an 8 hour a day job and having a family is pretty meaningless. Of course, many of us (myself included) must work to live but all the trappings of 2 cars in the garage and a chicken in every pot seems horrid to me.
I believe people can contribute to society in their own way. Even if that way is small. I just don't like and can't subscribe to the idea that in order to be meaningful you have to do it "my way" or it's the highway.
I would much rather have a society of hardcore gamers who lead their lives and leave everyone alone as opposed to a person who declares that their way is the best and forces others to comply or marginalizes a group because that group doesn't fit their definition of worthy.
Because where does it end?
Let's face it, most of us dont' contribute to society iin a meaningful way. Especially when you then start to wonder what that means.
Going to work and paying taxes and providing jobs for an area might be meaningful but someone else could easily argue that helping the poor and down trodden and supplying food and medicines for the needy is far more meaningful.
the sister of a friend of mine does just that. She travles all over the world to impoverished countries and builds shelters, organizes supplies and essentially fights the good fight because she believes that no human being should go without.
It would be hard to say that the average white collar businessman has a more meaningful life.
The hardcore gamer who helps an old lady walk over an icy patch so that she doesn't get hurt or who recycles their plastics is contributing to society in their own way. And heck if they are paying taxes (which most likely they are) then they are paying their share.
Any society that dictates how another should live their life is not a very worthy society.
Yes, determining what is considered a meaningful life is a sticky subject. In my opinion, helping humanity grow and bettering humanities future is meaningful. An entire community that spends their entire life playing video games is not going to advance in medical, technology, engineering, or any other areas needed to better the future of our species. Luckily, this doesn't happen, but this just means we have some people leaching off the efforts of others.
A person has to take a side when it comes to this. There's no middle ground. A person has to have the courage to pick their way of life, and stick to it. I think most people in the world would agree that bettering ourselves and the future of our species is a meaningful life, while spending 20+ hours a week gaming is not. Everyone can contribute to society. Mostly by teaching others things that are worth a damn to know, so that they may collect good knowledge and wisdom, and pass it along to their descendents. So on and so forth, until our species finally creates a Utopia.
We, as a species, has came a long way over the millennia. Think of how far we'd be if everyone adopted the gamer life style in the beginning days. Caveman 1 throws a rock into a circle drawn into the dirst. Caveman 2 does likewise. Caveman 1 wins, because he got closer to the middle. All cavemen and women do this day in a day out, do not socialize with each other, thus do not populate the Earth. End result: Humans go extinct. In other words, a life dedicated to gaming is not a viable way of life. Sure, it's fun while it lasts, and possibly more fun in the short term than most things, but there's really no substance in it.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way.
To use your example, not everyone is medical researcher, physicist, scientist, Doctor, humanitarian.
Most people have jobs that are either lower on the list regarding training or that don't take a grand sacrifice such as living the entirety of your life traveling around the world helping others.
A good portion of the people in the world most likley pay their taxes, come home and do whatever it is they do and no one is the wiser. It's from these taxes that a lot of the benefits of a society are made. Roads, medicine, infrastructure.
So as long as the hardcore gamers are not being supported by the government because they lied about some sort of illness or issue then they are most likely contributing a portion of their pay checks just like many of us are.
I could also say that the world's more poweful companies are leeching off the sweat of their workers for their own profits. Yet, the world's most powerful companies are most likely doing the research that is propellig society, even if their motivation is profit and not for the good of all.
In the end, if everyone adopted the gamer lifestyle then that would be a choice. They would essentially be saying that "we value this over that and let the consequences come". If you are truly saying "everyone".
I think it's ok for a society to say "no".
Quite frankly I think more societies need to say no. Too often it feels that society is just trying to push more and more people toward some sort of souless vocation in order to maximiz profits and keep the treadmill going. I'm pretty sure that there are many societies in this world who rely more upon their small villages than going to a 9 to 5 job each day.
In the end though, that is what makes society so cool. Not everyone is going to adopt the gamer lifestyle because not everyone is going to see that as a value. And if my own friends and acquaintences are any indicatioin, most of them find it a complete waste of time. All games.
Your "person has to take a side there is no middle ground" is opinion. Sorry but that is how you think and I support that but I can't live that way. There is always middle ground in my opinion. And the reality seems to be that most people do their nine to five jobs, come home, spend time with family and friends and are not pushing for humanity to become some sort of utopian society. Most people probably don't care. Or to put it a different way, most people want no war, health care for all, meaningful vocations, good friends and family, etc, but they pick and choose what they are willing to do toward that end and that's pretty much it.
Most people dont' tithe 30% of their salary towards worth causes or spend time in soup kitchens or adopt a vocation that will benefit mankind.
As I've said, most peopel work a job, pay their taxes, put a bit of money into the salvation army tin or throw a buck to a homeless person and that is that.
Society will always move forward because there are institutions and individuals who just want to move forward. But turning to someone and assessing their life so that it can be determined whether or not they are worthy to live in that society is thankfully not something we do. At leats on an official "bring in the stormtroopers and raid our houses because people are watching reality TV over working toward advanced degrees".
Some people just want to live a good life and enjoy themselves. As long as they are not truly leaching off of society (meaning that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves but they lie in order to be supported) then that is good enough for me.
In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I always love how, in threads like this, when anyone suggests moderation, you always have the people coming out of the woodwork screaming "we are hardcore, we are pathetic, we have no lives!" like it's something to be proud of. In all likelihood, the OP is entirely correct, MMOs are best played 1-3 hours a day, a couple of days a week. They are not a substitute for real life, they are a hobby, nothing more. Now try telling that to the losers who live vicariously through online games.
Gaming is a way of life IMO, so who cares if I would play 6-8 hours a day or 1-3. I say to each their own, and I wish more people would think that way. Who cares what other people do, just care what you do and live how you want to.
But its true games now days are ment to be played 1-3 if you want to not get to cap in a few weeks. If I would have played that many hours in FFXI I would have never gotten anywhere in that game.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings.
So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
I've never really been a group over the individual type of person because the group, in the end is made up of individuals. Chances are that at some point some part of that group will be sacrificed for the greater good and I'm pretty sure that no one wants to have what they hold dear sacrificed.
Also, even though you say that gaming a meaningless I would have to argue that this in the end is subjective.
Truth be told, I think that going to an 8 hour a day job and having a family is pretty meaningless. Of course, many of us (myself included) must work to live but all the trappings of 2 cars in the garage and a chicken in every pot seems horrid to me.
I believe people can contribute to society in their own way. Even if that way is small. I just don't like and can't subscribe to the idea that in order to be meaningful you have to do it "my way" or it's the highway.
I would much rather have a society of hardcore gamers who lead their lives and leave everyone alone as opposed to a person who declares that their way is the best and forces others to comply or marginalizes a group because that group doesn't fit their definition of worthy.
Because where does it end?
Let's face it, most of us dont' contribute to society iin a meaningful way. Especially when you then start to wonder what that means.
Going to work and paying taxes and providing jobs for an area might be meaningful but someone else could easily argue that helping the poor and down trodden and supplying food and medicines for the needy is far more meaningful.
the sister of a friend of mine does just that. She travles all over the world to impoverished countries and builds shelters, organizes supplies and essentially fights the good fight because she believes that no human being should go without.
It would be hard to say that the average white collar businessman has a more meaningful life.
The hardcore gamer who helps an old lady walk over an icy patch so that she doesn't get hurt or who recycles their plastics is contributing to society in their own way. And heck if they are paying taxes (which most likely they are) then they are paying their share.
Any society that dictates how another should live their life is not a very worthy society.
Yes, determining what is considered a meaningful life is a sticky subject. In my opinion, helping humanity grow and bettering humanities future is meaningful. An entire community that spends their entire life playing video games is not going to advance in medical, technology, engineering, or any other areas needed to better the future of our species. Luckily, this doesn't happen, but this just means we have some people leaching off the efforts of others.
A person has to take a side when it comes to this. There's no middle ground. A person has to have the courage to pick their way of life, and stick to it. I think most people in the world would agree that bettering ourselves and the future of our species is a meaningful life, while spending 20+ hours a week gaming is not. Everyone can contribute to society. Mostly by teaching others things that are worth a damn to know, so that they may collect good knowledge and wisdom, and pass it along to their descendents. So on and so forth, until our species finally creates a Utopia.
We, as a species, has came a long way over the millennia. Think of how far we'd be if everyone adopted the gamer life style in the beginning days. Caveman 1 throws a rock into a circle drawn into the dirst. Caveman 2 does likewise. Caveman 1 wins, because he got closer to the middle. All cavemen and women do this day in a day out, do not socialize with each other, thus do not populate the Earth. End result: Humans go extinct. In other words, a life dedicated to gaming is not a viable way of life. Sure, it's fun while it lasts, and possibly more fun in the short term than most things, but there's really no substance in it.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way.
To use your example, not everyone is medical researcher, physicist, scientist, Doctor, humanitarian.
Most people have jobs that are either lower on the list regarding training or that don't take a grand sacrifice such as living the entirety of your life traveling around the world helping others.
A good portion of the people in the world most likley pay their taxes, come home and do whatever it is they do and no one is the wiser. It's from these taxes that a lot of the benefits of a society are made. Roads, medicine, infrastructure.
So as long as the hardcore gamers are not being supported by the government because they lied about some sort of illness or issue then they are most likely contributing a portion of their pay checks just like many of us are.
I could also say that the worlds more poweful companies are leeching off the sweat of their workers. Yet, the worlds most powerful companies are most likely doing the research that is propellig society, even if their motivation is profit and not for the good of all.
In the end, if everyone adopted the gamer lifestyle then that would be a choice. They would essentially be saying that "we value this over that and let the consequences come". If you are truly saying "everyone".
I think it's ok for a society to say "no".
Quite frankly I think more soieties need to say no. Too often it feels that society is just trying to push more and more people toward some sort of souless vocation in order to maximiz profits and keep the treadmill going. I'm pretty sure that there are many societies in this world who rely more upon their small villages than going to a 9 to 5 job each day.
In the end though, that is what makes society so cool. Not everyone is going to adopt the gamers lifestyle because not everyone is going to see that as a value. And if my own friends and acquaintences are any indicatioin, most of them find it a complete waste of time. All games.
Your "person has to take a side there is no middle ground" is opinion. Sorry but that is how you think and I support that but I can't live that way. There is always middle ground. And the reality seems to be that most people do their nine to five jobs, come home, spend time with family and friends and are not pushing for humanity to become some sort of utopian society. Most people probably don't care. Or to put it a different way, most people want no war, health care for all, meaningful vocations, good friends and family, etc, but they pick and choose what they are willing to do toward that end and that's pretty much it.
Most people dont' tithe 30% of their salary towards worth causes or spend time in soup kitchens or adopt a vocation that will benefit mankind.
Most peopel work a job, pay their taxes, put a bit of money into the salvation army tin or throw a buck to a homeless person and that is that.
Society will always move forward because there are institutions and individuals who just want to move forward. But turning to someone and assessing their life so that it can be determined whether or not they are worthy to live in that society is thankfully not something we do. At leats on an official "bring in the stormtroopers and raid our houses because people are watching reality TV over working toward advanced degrees".
Remember, not everyone is wired to be a Doctor, research scientist, etc. Some people just want to live a good life and enjoy themselves. As long as they are not truly leaching off of society (meaning that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves but they lie in order to be supported) then that is good enough for me.
In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way. wall of large text In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
Well, I'm sure that someone willl read it.
For the rest they can just skip.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way. To use your example, not everyone is medical researcher, physicist, scientist, Doctor, humanitarian. Most people have jobs that are either lower on the list regarding training or that don't take a grand sacrifice such as living the entirety of your life traveling around the world helping others. A good portion of the people in the world most likley pay their taxes, come home and do whatever it is they do and no one is the wiser. It's from these taxes that a lot of the benefits of a society are made. Roads, medicine, infrastructure. So as long as the hardcore gamers are not being supported by the government because they lied about some sort of illness or issue then they are most likely contributing a portion of their pay checks just like many of us are. I could also say that the world's more poweful companies are leeching off the sweat of their workers for their own profits. Yet, the world's most powerful companies are most likely doing the research that is propellig society, even if their motivation is profit and not for the good of all. In the end, if everyone adopted the gamer lifestyle then that would be a choice. They would essentially be saying that "we value this over that and let the consequences come". If you are truly saying "everyone". I think it's ok for a society to say "no". Quite frankly I think more societies need to say no. Too often it feels that society is just trying to push more and more people toward some sort of souless vocation in order to maximiz profits and keep the treadmill going. I'm pretty sure that there are many societies in this world who rely more upon their small villages than going to a 9 to 5 job each day. In the end though, that is what makes society so cool. Not everyone is going to adopt the gamer lifestyle because not everyone is going to see that as a value. And if my own friends and acquaintences are any indicatioin, most of them find it a complete waste of time. All games. Your "person has to take a side there is no middle ground" is opinion. Sorry but that is how you think and I support that but I can't live that way. There is always middle ground in my opinion. And the reality seems to be that most people do their nine to five jobs, come home, spend time with family and friends and are not pushing for humanity to become some sort of utopian society. Most people probably don't care. Or to put it a different way, most people want no war, health care for all, meaningful vocations, good friends and family, etc, but they pick and choose what they are willing to do toward that end and that's pretty much it. Most people dont' tithe 30% of their salary towards worth causes or spend time in soup kitchens or adopt a vocation that will benefit mankind. As I've said, most peopel work a job, pay their taxes, put a bit of money into the salvation army tin or throw a buck to a homeless person and that is that. Society will always move forward because there are institutions and individuals who just want to move forward. But turning to someone and assessing their life so that it can be determined whether or not they are worthy to live in that society is thankfully not something we do. At leats on an official "bring in the stormtroopers and raid our houses because people are watching reality TV over working toward advanced degrees". Some people just want to live a good life and enjoy themselves. As long as they are not truly leaching off of society (meaning that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves but they lie in order to be supported) then that is good enough for me. In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
I agree.
cool. Beers for all!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way. wall of large text In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
Well, I'm sure that someone willl read it.
For the rest they can just skip.
The ability to be consise and to the point is appreciated by TA's across college campuses .
However should you choose to be verbose...well at least you can enjoy going back and rereading your prose. The greatest fan of most prose is the author there of.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
I always love how, in threads like this, when anyone suggests moderation, you always have the people coming out of the woodwork screaming "we are hardcore, we are pathetic, we have no lives!" like it's something to be proud of. In all likelihood, the OP is entirely correct, MMOs are best played 1-3 hours a day, a couple of days a week. They are not a substitute for real life, they are a hobby, nothing more. Now try telling that to the losers who live vicariously through online games.
People like you are funny. I have no life because I play video games more then 30 hours a week? Really?
I work 40+ hours a week at a full time job, I also have an internship that I work after my normal work day is done at a different company. I also play roller and ice hockey. I also watch every single Detroit Red Wings hockey game and I go out with friends a few times a week and I still put in 30+ hours a week into video games.
So again tell me how I do not have a life? Seriously tell me I am a loser? Its called time management. I manage my time well. I enjoy playing Video games so I make sure that I make time for them. Its not that hard really.
I do not watch much TV (unless its HuLu while i am gaming).
People race cars as a hobby and they spend all their free time working on their cars and reading about new parts and things. Are they Losers?
People play with model trains, they spend all their free time playing with these trains. Are they losers?
The point is, Playing Video games is one of my favorite hobbies and as such I spend alot of my free time playing them. That does not make me a loser or mean I have no life, it means that I make time for things I enjoy because I understand that life is to short to spend my time doing things I do not want to do.
Originally posted by nate1980 So how do you measure content? Well, you subtract the grind elements from each block of content, and then time how long it takes to complete each block of content available in the game. A block of content could be called a quest, group quest, instance, battleground, raid, and so on. Developer's have a tendency to make some things grind heavy to make those blocks of content last longer than they should, such as having to kill 20 wolves to get 4 wolf claws, when you know damn sure that each wolf has at least 4 claws. Content doesn't stop being content once level cap is reached. In fact, if the game is centered on completing content, then reaching max level shouldn't be the goal to begin with for players. So one game that lasts 100 hours, but that entire 100 hours is fun, is better than the game that takes 400 hours, but 300 of those hours is all mind-numbing grind.
How do you want to make this 'substraction of grinding elements'? What those elements are and what is left then? Where is the travel time included? Availability of objectives you are able to acquire? etc.
I think this is something you would need to elaborate on
Imho, to measure the content by time it takes to accomplish each 'block' is not (always) possible.
There are other issues to measure the conent. This type of measuruing content would only apply to games with very linear progression. How about content that is non-linear? Like end game content, non-linear activities like crafting or games that have no linear progression at all or games that touch shady areas between those two?
I always love how, in threads like this, when anyone suggests moderation, you always have the people coming out of the woodwork screaming "we are hardcore, we are pathetic, we have no lives!" like it's something to be proud of. In all likelihood, the OP is entirely correct, MMOs are best played 1-3 hours a day, a couple of days a week. They are not a substitute for real life, they are a hobby, nothing more. Now try telling that to the losers who live vicariously through online games.
People like you are funny. I have no life because I play video games more then 30 hours a week? Really?
I work 40+ hours a week at a full time job, I also have an internship that I work after my normal work day is done at a different company. I also play roller and ice hockey. I also watch every single Detroit Red Wings hockey game and I go out with friends a few times a week and I still put in 30+ hours a week into video games.
So again tell me how I do not have a life? Seriously tell me I am a loser? Its called time management. I manage my time well. I enjoy playing Video games so I make sure that I make time for them. Its not that hard really.
I do not watch much TV (unless its HuLu while i am gaming).
People race cars as a hobby and they spend all their free time working on their cars and reading about new parts and things. Are they Losers?
People play with model trains, they spend all their free time playing with these trains. Are they losers?
The point is, Playing Video games is one of my favorite hobbies and as such I spend alot of my free time playing them. That does not make me a loser or mean I have no life, it means that I make time for things I enjoy because I understand that life is to short to spend my time doing things I do not want to do.
i feel the same!those that say get !they mean go get scammed so we can make money off you!and i say:NO TY !been there done that!
I have to disagree with your title. One to three hours per day? At best, developers might estimate that some players will play this long, but to give a blanket statement like that is simply making stuff up.
Another to way to think of it is that if you're paying $15 a month, the more hours you play, the less you are paying per hour. So, as long as you're having fun (and you've got the time), play as much as you want.
Jesus, the OP has broken the lost eleventh commandment, "Thou shall not get in thy neighbors way".
I don't play MMOs (Big surprise with all the *cough* low *cough* quality games out there), but you shouldn't tell people how much time they should play a game unless its yours (Make your own time limited MMO).
The problem is that developers don't have the ability to think and turn their players into content rather than trying to program faster that they can grind.
This wouldn't be a problem if a game have constant player events (Taking control of towns or building them, creating an in game religion and recruiting people o the cult for it to get stronger, get a horde of mounted players and travel a la Genghis Khan and make the in game newspaper?)
Unless you plan to do a difference yourself, I wouldn't suggest opening your mouth and saying people are dumb, or else your just as dumb since you'll keep buying their games. ( I plan to do a difference )
Just recently I got a serious thread which topic was combat get buried under flame war threads of people who can't talk seriously and just want for the game to magically appear, instead of trying to achieve it.
Why can't we get serious discussions in these topics?
I always love how, in threads like this, when anyone suggests moderation, you always have the people coming out of the woodwork screaming "we are hardcore, we are pathetic, we have no lives!" like it's something to be proud of. In all likelihood, the OP is entirely correct, MMOs are best played 1-3 hours a day, a couple of days a week. They are not a substitute for real life, they are a hobby, nothing more. Now try telling that to the losers who live vicariously through online games.
And you know what? I don't consider anyone who plays an hour or two a day a gamer. If that's all the time you have to invest into a game then I suggest you pick up a Wii.
Have one, thanks. Just finished beating Resident Evil 4 on it. What's that got to do with anything? Get a life and stop acting like sitting in front of a computer 24 hours a day counts.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings. So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
Agreed. This is nothing new either, way back in the early 80s, I had a friend who was fanatical about P&P roleplaying games. It's all he ever talked about. It's all he ever did. He had a delivery job that he ended up losing when they realized he went out in the morning with a few deliveries and never came back, he just went to the gaming store and hung out there all day. He spent every penny he had on new games, even if he never got to play them. He ended up dropping out of college because it was getting in the way of his gaming. To this day, he's still living hand-to-mouth because he lost all of that valuable time screwing around and being an immature git. He never learned how to actually live.
So to all the people who say gaming is a lifestyle, grow the hell up and get a life. You'll thank me later.
I love these arguments "stop complaining about lack of end game, you just have no life!", People have heard it all before and it's just a lame argument. It is nothing more then a fanboys knee jerk response to someone saying something bad about his beloved game. Some people have more free time then others, some people can't stand 'kill 15 of X and return to me' quests and want to get past them as fast as possible.
If a mmo has so little content that people are getting to the end of it within the first week its a huge problem, while casual players might not run into the problem as fast they will run into it within a few months.
STO for example claimed at some point it takes 100 hours to reach the cap, Ive heard some say the reached it in under 60, but lets just say 100 hours for the sake of argument. At 2 hours a day thats only around 1 1/2 months before they run out of content and then what? they quit? reroll so they can see the exact same content? I assume that developers want people to keep pouring money into the game for years and years, how is that going to happen when even the most casual of players can get threw everything in 3 months.
I get the idea that the developers will put an endgame in place within 3 months, but when a game is so devoid of leveling content that its so fast to get past it how much can you really expect, and if this endgame content is ment for casual players of 1-3 hours hardcore players will get past it in a few days and casuals in a few weeks
This type of system is fine for a single player game ware you pay once, but how is a MMO supposed to thrive if it has less content then some single player games. Also cryptic (as well as most MMOs now) sold lifetime subs for over $200, I would expect enough content to be in the game to last over a years worth of subscription fees.
In any event if you really think MMO players, or gamers in general are losers who need to 'get a life' what are you even doing playing games when you have such a great life.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings. So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
Agreed. This is nothing new either, way back in the early 80s, I had a friend who was fanatical about P&P roleplaying games. It's all he ever talked about. It's all he ever did. He had a delivery job that he ended up losing when they realized he went out in the morning with a few deliveries and never came back, he just went to the gaming store and hung out there all day. He spent every penny he had on new games, even if he never got to play them. He ended up dropping out of college because it was getting in the way of his gaming. To this day, he's still living hand-to-mouth because he lost all of that valuable time screwing around and being an immature git. He never learned how to actually live.
So to all the people who say gaming is a lifestyle, grow the hell up and get a life. You'll thank me later.
What rubbish. This kind of nonsense could be said about reading fictional books. If you're not improving yourself every minute of every day, you're wasting your life. What garbage. How about letting everyone have fun the way they want without looking down on them. People gaming aren't out committing crimes, harming others, so why shit on them?
Seriously, what a ludicrous thread. If you're not gaming the amount of hours the OP thinks is correct, you're wasting your life. Holy geez, thank the heavens above you came down and set us all straight.
The line between having no life or being hardcore changes depending on the type of game you're playing. When I was growning up, it would cost you $10 to play an arcade game for an hour.... if you were good. THAT was considered hardcore back in the day. I'm way into Bullet hell Shmups, but I only put about 20 minutes at a time into them every now and again. About a month ago, I took Mame with a few choice Roms to work on a USB drive to play during my breaks. A co-worker watched over my shoulder as I blew through the first three levels of Raiden on one life and made a comment about how I must have no life. The time to acquire those kinds of skills (per session) were minimal, but most people don't know that.
Likewise, it just makes more sense to make games that have large numbers of short play sessions. Most people don't have a lot of time to spare and making a game that requires enourmous time investment for even a minimal return in gratification creates a barrier to entry that most people won't even bother with. The exception to this rule is the fighting game genre where the time per session is minimal, but the number of sessions required to become viable in multiplayer is staggering. Part of the reason why I don't play MMOs is due to the time commitment. Given, recent MMORPGs have cut this considerably but in the early days, pre-WoW, you had to play 20 hours a week MINIMUM just get anything accomplished. This usually meant that you didn't get to play any other games either. Anymore, I'd say that I only play about 10 hours a week and I have to work my schedule just to find that kind of time.
As far as designing for time, I think that most developers are just following the habits of gamers. We now have the ability to track this to a much greater extent than ever before. Here are som interesting numbers that I pulled from info on Xfire.....
Average time spent per day, per player:
World of Warcraft - 5 hours
Modern Warfare 2 - 2 hours
Lord of The Rings Online - 4.5 hours
Team Fortress 2 - 2 hours
Eve Online - 6 hours
Starcraft - 2 hours
Darkfall - 7.5 hours
League of Legends - 3.7 hours
WH40K: Dawn of War - 2 hours
As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day or roughly the same amount of time that the average person spent watching TV in 1986. Now the new question is: how much more time than the average must you invest in order to be "hardcore?"
Comments
Oh, I'm all for freedom of choice, and I'm with you about drugs too. I'm quite a liberal, but what I'm talking about isn't a freedom of choice thing. I, of course, believe people have the right to choose how many hours they want to play at a time, just as I believe people have the right to use drugs, as long as they aren't directly hurting others by using them. However, I believe if a person chooses to live a certain way, they shouldn't push the blame on others for certain inadequecies in their life. For example, if a game releases with so many hours of content and a person playing an average of 1-3 hours a day can reach that content cap around the time of the next content patch, then I don't think the unhealthy gamers have a right to complain about a lack of content, repetitiveness, or boredom. It should go without saying that playing the same game day in and day out for several hours a day will get boring. I'd worry about a persons intelligence if they didn't get bored with something after that much repetition.
So we agree, that people should have the right to choose, but in return should live with the consequences of their actions? Meaning, they shouldn't complain about things that are a result of their actions.
Actually, most MMOs are played in 1-3 hour stints, and are designed as such. I will say that STO does remain much more entertaining if you take your time with it though, but it is the exception, not the rule. MMOs are meant to be played however long they remain fun (within reason of course). Some people are simply intent to burn themselves out however because they feel the need to be "competitive" in some fashion rather than simply have fun with the game and do the best they can.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
Oh, I'm all for freedom of choice, and I'm with you about drugs too. I'm quite a liberal, but what I'm talking about isn't a freedom of choice thing. I, of course, believe people have the right to choose how many hours they want to play at a time, just as I believe people have the right to use drugs, as long as they aren't directly hurting others by using them. However, I believe if a person chooses to live a certain way, they shouldn't push the blame on others for certain inadequecies in their life. For example, if a game releases with so many hours of content and a person playing an average of 1-3 hours a day can reach that content cap around the time of the next content patch, then I don't think the unhealthy gamers have a right to complain about a lack of content, repetitiveness, or boredom. It should go without saying that playing the same game day in and day out for several hours a day will get boring. I'd worry about a persons intelligence if they didn't get bored with something after that much repetition.
So we agree, that people should have the right to choose, but in return should live with the consequences of their actions? Meaning, they shouldn't complain about things that are a result of their actions.
They can complain all they want. No one will stop them. Frankly, I'd question if it wouldn't be better if a dev would cater to their content demands (if possible). We all want more content, but the hardcore want it more than casuals because they need it first (since they blow through all the normal content). If a game company can pump out quality content at a rate which satiates the hardcore, everyone wins. I don't really think that's possible, though, because I doubt hardcores will ever be satisfied. So perhaps the only answer is, as suggested so many times here, a "lack" of content - a sandbox, where the developers focus on giving you tools to create content instead of the actual content itself.
I agree with the principle of the matter. If you're driving three times as fast as the guy next to you on a short road, you're going to reach the end first and fly off the cliff. It's your fault that you kept speeding even though the bridge across the canyon hasn't been built yet.
I play in 3-4 minute stints because I have the patience of a God.....don't hate me.
I am still on the filling out of the information to set up my account......god this is exciting!
I can't wait to get my first ship.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
Sitting around playing video games for 30 hours a week is no different than watching TV for 30 hours a week. However, I don't believe the average American watches 30 hours of T.V. a week. What source are you basing this on? Even if it is true, do you really want to bring the argument, "well he's doing it, so why can't we?" Do you really want to compare yourself to the "average American?" A recent article in my local newspaper said that 60-70% (can't remember exact figure) is obese and the number is rising. Does that mean I'm going to go get fat?
Now I'm not talking about "duty" either. The only duty one has is to himself. What I'm talking about is when I face death, and take a look at the past, I want to say I made something of myself and improved the world in some way. If you or anyone else wants to sit on their death bed and say, "I was lvl 80 first in WoW, had the most PvP kills in Darkfall, and had uber gear, " then fine. However, don't expect me to consider hardcore gaming a viable alternative to healthy gaming when consideration or discussions are being made about how much content is enough content and how often should content patches be released.
Obviously I don't think either playing a game or watching tv to excess is particularly healthy as evidenced by the core of my posts. I was simply stating that perhaps it should be put into perspective where we see the general nature of our society and that calling out gamers tends to be the easy mark.
There are hardcores in every hobby. Sports fans, online poker players, blogsters, car freaks, military buffs, etc.
The real point about any of this is in the comparison of different mmorpgs in how they handle the various types of mmo players. Some handle rapid leveling and endgame content near release far better than others and it is likely indicative of their overall progress/commitment to the game. A failure to present 'late game' content near release is simply a decision that an mmo must determine in its overall business model.
It may not hurt them at all but at least there can be a discussion about timetables and quality of expansion.
Agreed. To each their own. If someone wants to play for 10 hours a day, fine. If more MMOs were made with the sandbox concept this wouldn't be a problem. Of course people are going to get bored of the same roller-coasters over and over if you get what I'm saying;)
I heard that the average American spends 5 hours a day watching TV (on CNN). That's 35 hours a week. Honestly spending 40 hours or even 50 hours a week on your favorite hobby isn't as bad as you might think, although some people do take it too far (myself include) and spend 70+ hours a week gaming.
To think I should only be playing a MMO 1-3 hours a day... people spend a lot more time on a hobby than that typically. Considering playing MMOs is a relatively cheap value for your entertainment I don't see why I need to limit myself to 1-3 hours a day if I have enough free time.
@Nate you question a person's intelligence if they spend that much time doing a repetitive hobby. What about learning a new language (which is full of repetition), or reading a certain genre of a novel, or people who enjoy their work which is typically 40 hours a week? Do you question their intelligence too? I'm also not one to complain about lack of content unless a game is released in an unfinished state (like AoC was). But, there are examples of companies that can release enough content to appeal to the hardcore crowd before it all becomes too repetitive like Blizzard (WoW) or SoE (EQ and EQ II), so it can be done, and we have every right to expect those kind of updates from other companies.
Gaming is a way of life IMO, so who cares if I would play 6-8 hours a day or 1-3. I say to each their own, and I wish more people would think that way. Who cares what other people do, just care what you do and live how you want to.
But its true games now days are ment to be played 1-3 if you want to not get to cap in a few weeks. If I would have played that many hours in FFXI I would have never gotten anywhere in that game.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings.
So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
I've never really been a group over the individual type of person because the group, in the end is made up of individuals. Chances are that at some point some part of that group will be sacrificed for the greater good and I'm pretty sure that no one wants to have what they hold dear sacrificed.
Also, even though you say that gaming a meaningless I would have to argue that this in the end is subjective.
Truth be told, I think that going to an 8 hour a day job and having a family is pretty meaningless. Of course, many of us (myself included) must work to live but all the trappings of 2 cars in the garage and a chicken in every pot seems horrid to me.
I believe people can contribute to society in their own way. Even if that way is small. I just don't like and can't subscribe to the idea that in order to be meaningful you have to do it "my way" or it's the highway.
I would much rather have a society of hardcore gamers who lead their lives and leave everyone alone as opposed to a person who declares that their way is the best and forces others to comply or marginalizes a group because that group doesn't fit their definition of worthy.
Because where does it end?
Let's face it, most of us dont' contribute to society iin a meaningful way. Especially when you then start to wonder what that means.
Going to work and paying taxes and providing jobs for an area might be meaningful but someone else could easily argue that helping the poor and down trodden and supplying food and medicines for the needy is far more meaningful.
the sister of a friend of mine does just that. She travles all over the world to impoverished countries and builds shelters, organizes supplies and essentially fights the good fight because she believes that no human being should go without.
It would be hard to say that the average white collar businessman has a more meaningful life.
The hardcore gamer who helps an old lady walk over an icy patch so that she doesn't get hurt or who recycles their plastics is contributing to society in their own way. And heck if they are paying taxes (which most likely they are) then they are paying their share.
Any society that dictates how another should live their life is not a very worthy society.
Yes, determining what is considered a meaningful life is a sticky subject. In my opinion, helping humanity grow and bettering humanities future is meaningful. An entire community that spends their entire life playing video games is not going to advance in medical, technology, engineering, or any other areas needed to better the future of our species. Luckily, this doesn't happen, but this just means we have some people leaching off the efforts of others.
A person has to take a side when it comes to this. There's no middle ground. A person has to have the courage to pick their way of life, and stick to it. I think most people in the world would agree that bettering ourselves and the future of our species is a meaningful life, while spending 20+ hours a week gaming is not. Everyone can contribute to society. Mostly by teaching others things that are worth a damn to know, so that they may collect good knowledge and wisdom, and pass it along to their descendents. So on and so forth, until our species finally creates a Utopia.
We, as a species, has came a long way over the millennia. Think of how far we'd be if everyone adopted the gamer life style in the beginning days. Caveman 1 throws a rock into a circle drawn into the dirst. Caveman 2 does likewise. Caveman 1 wins, because he got closer to the middle. All cavemen and women do this day in a day out, do not socialize with each other, thus do not populate the Earth. End result: Humans go extinct. In other words, a life dedicated to gaming is not a viable way of life. Sure, it's fun while it lasts, and possibly more fun in the short term than most things, but there's really no substance in it.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way.
To use your example, not everyone is medical researcher, physicist, scientist, Doctor, humanitarian.
Most people have jobs that are either lower on the list regarding training or that don't take a grand sacrifice such as living the entirety of your life traveling around the world helping others.
A good portion of the people in the world most likley pay their taxes, come home and do whatever it is they do and no one is the wiser. It's from these taxes that a lot of the benefits of a society are made. Roads, medicine, infrastructure.
So as long as the hardcore gamers are not being supported by the government because they lied about some sort of illness or issue then they are most likely contributing a portion of their pay checks just like many of us are.
I could also say that the world's more poweful companies are leeching off the sweat of their workers for their own profits. Yet, the world's most powerful companies are most likely doing the research that is propellig society, even if their motivation is profit and not for the good of all.
In the end, if everyone adopted the gamer lifestyle then that would be a choice. They would essentially be saying that "we value this over that and let the consequences come". If you are truly saying "everyone".
I think it's ok for a society to say "no".
Quite frankly I think more societies need to say no. Too often it feels that society is just trying to push more and more people toward some sort of souless vocation in order to maximiz profits and keep the treadmill going. I'm pretty sure that there are many societies in this world who rely more upon their small villages than going to a 9 to 5 job each day.
In the end though, that is what makes society so cool. Not everyone is going to adopt the gamer lifestyle because not everyone is going to see that as a value. And if my own friends and acquaintences are any indicatioin, most of them find it a complete waste of time. All games.
Your "person has to take a side there is no middle ground" is opinion. Sorry but that is how you think and I support that but I can't live that way. There is always middle ground in my opinion. And the reality seems to be that most people do their nine to five jobs, come home, spend time with family and friends and are not pushing for humanity to become some sort of utopian society. Most people probably don't care. Or to put it a different way, most people want no war, health care for all, meaningful vocations, good friends and family, etc, but they pick and choose what they are willing to do toward that end and that's pretty much it.
Most people dont' tithe 30% of their salary towards worth causes or spend time in soup kitchens or adopt a vocation that will benefit mankind.
As I've said, most peopel work a job, pay their taxes, put a bit of money into the salvation army tin or throw a buck to a homeless person and that is that.
Society will always move forward because there are institutions and individuals who just want to move forward. But turning to someone and assessing their life so that it can be determined whether or not they are worthy to live in that society is thankfully not something we do. At leats on an official "bring in the stormtroopers and raid our houses because people are watching reality TV over working toward advanced degrees".
Some people just want to live a good life and enjoy themselves. As long as they are not truly leaching off of society (meaning that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves but they lie in order to be supported) then that is good enough for me.
In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Gaming is a way of life IMO, so who cares if I would play 6-8 hours a day or 1-3. I say to each their own, and I wish more people would think that way. Who cares what other people do, just care what you do and live how you want to.
But its true games now days are ment to be played 1-3 if you want to not get to cap in a few weeks. If I would have played that many hours in FFXI I would have never gotten anywhere in that game.
It's definitely arguable to say gaming is a way of life. Even if we all agreed that gaming is a way of life, it's not a worthy way of life. It's shallow and meaningless. In a world where people are measured by how they contribute to society, as they should, caring about what society thinks should matter. Caring about what society thinks is what drives politicians to make one decision over the next, or the Supreme Court in passing a new law, ammending others, and granting appeals. What society thinks is a huge driving force in our world, and anyone that doesn't consider it is out of touch with reality, which is a problem the "gamer way of life" brings.
So basically, people who spend their life gaming at the expense of their health and all other things are worthless to society. Since they're worthless to society, they can't complain if society looks down on them, and treats them like outcasts. That kind of anti-social behavior gets you no where in life.
I've never really been a group over the individual type of person because the group, in the end is made up of individuals. Chances are that at some point some part of that group will be sacrificed for the greater good and I'm pretty sure that no one wants to have what they hold dear sacrificed.
Also, even though you say that gaming a meaningless I would have to argue that this in the end is subjective.
Truth be told, I think that going to an 8 hour a day job and having a family is pretty meaningless. Of course, many of us (myself included) must work to live but all the trappings of 2 cars in the garage and a chicken in every pot seems horrid to me.
I believe people can contribute to society in their own way. Even if that way is small. I just don't like and can't subscribe to the idea that in order to be meaningful you have to do it "my way" or it's the highway.
I would much rather have a society of hardcore gamers who lead their lives and leave everyone alone as opposed to a person who declares that their way is the best and forces others to comply or marginalizes a group because that group doesn't fit their definition of worthy.
Because where does it end?
Let's face it, most of us dont' contribute to society iin a meaningful way. Especially when you then start to wonder what that means.
Going to work and paying taxes and providing jobs for an area might be meaningful but someone else could easily argue that helping the poor and down trodden and supplying food and medicines for the needy is far more meaningful.
the sister of a friend of mine does just that. She travles all over the world to impoverished countries and builds shelters, organizes supplies and essentially fights the good fight because she believes that no human being should go without.
It would be hard to say that the average white collar businessman has a more meaningful life.
The hardcore gamer who helps an old lady walk over an icy patch so that she doesn't get hurt or who recycles their plastics is contributing to society in their own way. And heck if they are paying taxes (which most likely they are) then they are paying their share.
Any society that dictates how another should live their life is not a very worthy society.
Yes, determining what is considered a meaningful life is a sticky subject. In my opinion, helping humanity grow and bettering humanities future is meaningful. An entire community that spends their entire life playing video games is not going to advance in medical, technology, engineering, or any other areas needed to better the future of our species. Luckily, this doesn't happen, but this just means we have some people leaching off the efforts of others.
A person has to take a side when it comes to this. There's no middle ground. A person has to have the courage to pick their way of life, and stick to it. I think most people in the world would agree that bettering ourselves and the future of our species is a meaningful life, while spending 20+ hours a week gaming is not. Everyone can contribute to society. Mostly by teaching others things that are worth a damn to know, so that they may collect good knowledge and wisdom, and pass it along to their descendents. So on and so forth, until our species finally creates a Utopia.
We, as a species, has came a long way over the millennia. Think of how far we'd be if everyone adopted the gamer life style in the beginning days. Caveman 1 throws a rock into a circle drawn into the dirst. Caveman 2 does likewise. Caveman 1 wins, because he got closer to the middle. All cavemen and women do this day in a day out, do not socialize with each other, thus do not populate the Earth. End result: Humans go extinct. In other words, a life dedicated to gaming is not a viable way of life. Sure, it's fun while it lasts, and possibly more fun in the short term than most things, but there's really no substance in it.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think that it's ok for individuals to to pick their own way.
To use your example, not everyone is medical researcher, physicist, scientist, Doctor, humanitarian.
Most people have jobs that are either lower on the list regarding training or that don't take a grand sacrifice such as living the entirety of your life traveling around the world helping others.
A good portion of the people in the world most likley pay their taxes, come home and do whatever it is they do and no one is the wiser. It's from these taxes that a lot of the benefits of a society are made. Roads, medicine, infrastructure.
So as long as the hardcore gamers are not being supported by the government because they lied about some sort of illness or issue then they are most likely contributing a portion of their pay checks just like many of us are.
I could also say that the worlds more poweful companies are leeching off the sweat of their workers. Yet, the worlds most powerful companies are most likely doing the research that is propellig society, even if their motivation is profit and not for the good of all.
In the end, if everyone adopted the gamer lifestyle then that would be a choice. They would essentially be saying that "we value this over that and let the consequences come". If you are truly saying "everyone".
I think it's ok for a society to say "no".
Quite frankly I think more soieties need to say no. Too often it feels that society is just trying to push more and more people toward some sort of souless vocation in order to maximiz profits and keep the treadmill going. I'm pretty sure that there are many societies in this world who rely more upon their small villages than going to a 9 to 5 job each day.
In the end though, that is what makes society so cool. Not everyone is going to adopt the gamers lifestyle because not everyone is going to see that as a value. And if my own friends and acquaintences are any indicatioin, most of them find it a complete waste of time. All games.
Your "person has to take a side there is no middle ground" is opinion. Sorry but that is how you think and I support that but I can't live that way. There is always middle ground. And the reality seems to be that most people do their nine to five jobs, come home, spend time with family and friends and are not pushing for humanity to become some sort of utopian society. Most people probably don't care. Or to put it a different way, most people want no war, health care for all, meaningful vocations, good friends and family, etc, but they pick and choose what they are willing to do toward that end and that's pretty much it.
Most people dont' tithe 30% of their salary towards worth causes or spend time in soup kitchens or adopt a vocation that will benefit mankind.
Most peopel work a job, pay their taxes, put a bit of money into the salvation army tin or throw a buck to a homeless person and that is that.
Society will always move forward because there are institutions and individuals who just want to move forward. But turning to someone and assessing their life so that it can be determined whether or not they are worthy to live in that society is thankfully not something we do. At leats on an official "bring in the stormtroopers and raid our houses because people are watching reality TV over working toward advanced degrees".
Remember, not everyone is wired to be a Doctor, research scientist, etc. Some people just want to live a good life and enjoy themselves. As long as they are not truly leaching off of society (meaning that they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves but they lie in order to be supported) then that is good enough for me.
In the end we have to have plumbers, sanitation people, coffee baristas, etc. And as long as they do an honest day's worth of work and pay their taxes I feel they have the right to play games when they are not working, surf porn or watch reality TV or just sit in their lounge suite drinking bourban and reading books.
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
Well, I'm sure that someone willl read it.
For the rest they can just skip.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I agree.
I agree.
cool. Beers for all!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Man I'm The Dude...or El Dudariono if you aren't into all that brevity stuff.
Jesus Christ that's a wall of text I nor anyone I respect will ever read.
Learn to get to the point.....sheesh!
Well, I'm sure that someone willl read it.
For the rest they can just skip.
The ability to be consise and to the point is appreciated by TA's across college campuses .
However should you choose to be verbose...well at least you can enjoy going back and rereading your prose. The greatest fan of most prose is the author there of.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
I bet all of you people saying that mmos are only meant for 1-3 hours of play per day actually play them 10+ hours a day.
Mr. Bagguns
People like you are funny. I have no life because I play video games more then 30 hours a week? Really?
I work 40+ hours a week at a full time job, I also have an internship that I work after my normal work day is done at a different company. I also play roller and ice hockey. I also watch every single Detroit Red Wings hockey game and I go out with friends a few times a week and I still put in 30+ hours a week into video games.
So again tell me how I do not have a life? Seriously tell me I am a loser? Its called time management. I manage my time well. I enjoy playing Video games so I make sure that I make time for them. Its not that hard really.
I do not watch much TV (unless its HuLu while i am gaming).
People race cars as a hobby and they spend all their free time working on their cars and reading about new parts and things. Are they Losers?
People play with model trains, they spend all their free time playing with these trains. Are they losers?
The point is, Playing Video games is one of my favorite hobbies and as such I spend alot of my free time playing them. That does not make me a loser or mean I have no life, it means that I make time for things I enjoy because I understand that life is to short to spend my time doing things I do not want to do.
Sooner or Later
How do you want to make this 'substraction of grinding elements'? What those elements are and what is left then? Where is the travel time included? Availability of objectives you are able to acquire? etc.
I think this is something you would need to elaborate on
Imho, to measure the content by time it takes to accomplish each 'block' is not (always) possible.
There are other issues to measure the conent. This type of measuruing content would only apply to games with very linear progression. How about content that is non-linear? Like end game content, non-linear activities like crafting or games that have no linear progression at all or games that touch shady areas between those two?
How would you measure those?
People like you are funny. I have no life because I play video games more then 30 hours a week? Really?
I work 40+ hours a week at a full time job, I also have an internship that I work after my normal work day is done at a different company. I also play roller and ice hockey. I also watch every single Detroit Red Wings hockey game and I go out with friends a few times a week and I still put in 30+ hours a week into video games.
So again tell me how I do not have a life? Seriously tell me I am a loser? Its called time management. I manage my time well. I enjoy playing Video games so I make sure that I make time for them. Its not that hard really.
I do not watch much TV (unless its HuLu while i am gaming).
People race cars as a hobby and they spend all their free time working on their cars and reading about new parts and things. Are they Losers?
People play with model trains, they spend all their free time playing with these trains. Are they losers?
The point is, Playing Video games is one of my favorite hobbies and as such I spend alot of my free time playing them. That does not make me a loser or mean I have no life, it means that I make time for things I enjoy because I understand that life is to short to spend my time doing things I do not want to do.
i feel the same!those that say get !they mean go get scammed so we can make money off you!and i say:NO TY !been there done that!
I have to disagree with your title. One to three hours per day? At best, developers might estimate that some players will play this long, but to give a blanket statement like that is simply making stuff up.
Another to way to think of it is that if you're paying $15 a month, the more hours you play, the less you are paying per hour. So, as long as you're having fun (and you've got the time), play as much as you want.
Jesus, the OP has broken the lost eleventh commandment, "Thou shall not get in thy neighbors way".
I don't play MMOs (Big surprise with all the *cough* low *cough* quality games out there), but you shouldn't tell people how much time they should play a game unless its yours (Make your own time limited MMO).
The problem is that developers don't have the ability to think and turn their players into content rather than trying to program faster that they can grind.
This wouldn't be a problem if a game have constant player events (Taking control of towns or building them, creating an in game religion and recruiting people o the cult for it to get stronger, get a horde of mounted players and travel a la Genghis Khan and make the in game newspaper?)
Unless you plan to do a difference yourself, I wouldn't suggest opening your mouth and saying people are dumb, or else your just as dumb since you'll keep buying their games. ( I plan to do a difference
)
Just recently I got a serious thread which topic was combat get buried under flame war threads of people who can't talk seriously and just want for the game to magically appear, instead of trying to achieve it.
Why can't we get serious discussions in these topics?
And you know what? I don't consider anyone who plays an hour or two a day a gamer. If that's all the time you have to invest into a game then I suggest you pick up a Wii.
Have one, thanks. Just finished beating Resident Evil 4 on it. What's that got to do with anything? Get a life and stop acting like sitting in front of a computer 24 hours a day counts.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Agreed. This is nothing new either, way back in the early 80s, I had a friend who was fanatical about P&P roleplaying games. It's all he ever talked about. It's all he ever did. He had a delivery job that he ended up losing when they realized he went out in the morning with a few deliveries and never came back, he just went to the gaming store and hung out there all day. He spent every penny he had on new games, even if he never got to play them. He ended up dropping out of college because it was getting in the way of his gaming. To this day, he's still living hand-to-mouth because he lost all of that valuable time screwing around and being an immature git. He never learned how to actually live.
So to all the people who say gaming is a lifestyle, grow the hell up and get a life. You'll thank me later.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I love these arguments "stop complaining about lack of end game, you just have no life!", People have heard it all before and it's just a lame argument. It is nothing more then a fanboys knee jerk response to someone saying something bad about his beloved game. Some people have more free time then others, some people can't stand 'kill 15 of X and return to me' quests and want to get past them as fast as possible.
If a mmo has so little content that people are getting to the end of it within the first week its a huge problem, while casual players might not run into the problem as fast they will run into it within a few months.
STO for example claimed at some point it takes 100 hours to reach the cap, Ive heard some say the reached it in under 60, but lets just say 100 hours for the sake of argument. At 2 hours a day thats only around 1 1/2 months before they run out of content and then what? they quit? reroll so they can see the exact same content? I assume that developers want people to keep pouring money into the game for years and years, how is that going to happen when even the most casual of players can get threw everything in 3 months.
I get the idea that the developers will put an endgame in place within 3 months, but when a game is so devoid of leveling content that its so fast to get past it how much can you really expect, and if this endgame content is ment for casual players of 1-3 hours hardcore players will get past it in a few days and casuals in a few weeks
This type of system is fine for a single player game ware you pay once, but how is a MMO supposed to thrive if it has less content then some single player games. Also cryptic (as well as most MMOs now) sold lifetime subs for over $200, I would expect enough content to be in the game to last over a years worth of subscription fees.
In any event if you really think MMO players, or gamers in general are losers who need to 'get a life' what are you even doing playing games when you have such a great life.
Mmo's have followed the same treand as single player games, they are way to short.
Agreed. This is nothing new either, way back in the early 80s, I had a friend who was fanatical about P&P roleplaying games. It's all he ever talked about. It's all he ever did. He had a delivery job that he ended up losing when they realized he went out in the morning with a few deliveries and never came back, he just went to the gaming store and hung out there all day. He spent every penny he had on new games, even if he never got to play them. He ended up dropping out of college because it was getting in the way of his gaming. To this day, he's still living hand-to-mouth because he lost all of that valuable time screwing around and being an immature git. He never learned how to actually live.
So to all the people who say gaming is a lifestyle, grow the hell up and get a life. You'll thank me later.
What rubbish. This kind of nonsense could be said about reading fictional books. If you're not improving yourself every minute of every day, you're wasting your life. What garbage. How about letting everyone have fun the way they want without looking down on them. People gaming aren't out committing crimes, harming others, so why shit on them?
Seriously, what a ludicrous thread. If you're not gaming the amount of hours the OP thinks is correct, you're wasting your life. Holy geez, thank the heavens above you came down and set us all straight.
The line between having no life or being hardcore changes depending on the type of game you're playing. When I was growning up, it would cost you $10 to play an arcade game for an hour.... if you were good. THAT was considered hardcore back in the day. I'm way into Bullet hell Shmups, but I only put about 20 minutes at a time into them every now and again. About a month ago, I took Mame with a few choice Roms to work on a USB drive to play during my breaks. A co-worker watched over my shoulder as I blew through the first three levels of Raiden on one life and made a comment about how I must have no life. The time to acquire those kinds of skills (per session) were minimal, but most people don't know that.
Likewise, it just makes more sense to make games that have large numbers of short play sessions. Most people don't have a lot of time to spare and making a game that requires enourmous time investment for even a minimal return in gratification creates a barrier to entry that most people won't even bother with. The exception to this rule is the fighting game genre where the time per session is minimal, but the number of sessions required to become viable in multiplayer is staggering. Part of the reason why I don't play MMOs is due to the time commitment. Given, recent MMORPGs have cut this considerably but in the early days, pre-WoW, you had to play 20 hours a week MINIMUM just get anything accomplished. This usually meant that you didn't get to play any other games either. Anymore, I'd say that I only play about 10 hours a week and I have to work my schedule just to find that kind of time.
As far as designing for time, I think that most developers are just following the habits of gamers. We now have the ability to track this to a much greater extent than ever before. Here are som interesting numbers that I pulled from info on Xfire.....
Average time spent per day, per player:
World of Warcraft - 5 hours
Modern Warfare 2 - 2 hours
Lord of The Rings Online - 4.5 hours
Team Fortress 2 - 2 hours
Eve Online - 6 hours
Starcraft - 2 hours
Darkfall - 7.5 hours
League of Legends - 3.7 hours
WH40K: Dawn of War - 2 hours
As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day or roughly the same amount of time that the average person spent watching TV in 1986. Now the new question is: how much more time than the average must you invest in order to be "hardcore?"