You made a good post and I agree with a lot of things you said. However, the primary point of your argument is exactly what is wrong with mmos today. The idea of mmos as storys and quests. Yes, quests and stories are necessary and fun, but a complete mmo is about so much more. Exploration, crafting, economy, socializing, resource hunting, hunting for components and enhancments, pvp, politics. Those are but a sliver of the minigames that a mmo should have in it. Devs keep releasing these mmos that they put tons of hours in developing quests and stories for, but they always forget about the "other stuff" and wonder why people blow through content so quickly. It's the "other stuff" that make a game a mmorpg rather than a morpg.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Average time spent per day, per player: World of Warcraft - 5 hours Modern Warfare 2 - 2 hours Lord of The Rings Online - 4.5 hours Team Fortress 2 - 2 hours Eve Online - 6 hours Starcraft - 2 hours Darkfall - 7.5 hours League of Legends - 3.7 hours WH40K: Dawn of War - 2 hours As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day
Without discussing the validity of input data and methods used, how did you get that average number of 5.75 hours per day?
As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day
Without discussing the validity of input data and methods used, how did you get that average number of 5.75 hours per day?
Using simple average of hours you posted:
Hours total: 34.7
Games listed: 9
Average: 3.86 hours
The games listed with low hours are not mmos that's why
There is no standard time we should play each day, it is up to the player how much time he plays. The problem is what is a minimum and maximum that can be expected each day? If you can’t log on for an hour should you be playing a MMO, I don’t think so. Long spells are fine as long as they are not expected every day, a 4 hour raid once a week is not a chore.
But it is all relative the circumstances of the player. The problem we have is that in a effort to maximize the player base anything that takes too much time is being dumbed down. This results in us perceiving the game as being too easy and not having enough content.
The only solution I can see is dividing content into casual and time intensive, but then you have the problem of what is going to be casual and what is going to be time intensive. Unfortunately you do get players who think that because they have paid their sub they are entitled to finish all content even if they never play more than half an hour a day.
Originally posted by bloodaxes The games listed with low hours are not mmos that's why
Ah, if that is true, then the assumption is invalid because the list does not meet the least requirement of equal category substitution nor it represents a valid sample.
While I agree with the OP that most MMOs are designed to be played 1-3 hours a day, I see no reason why developers shouldn't make an effort to give the "hardcore" crowd the illusion of an end game. To those who play the game as intended, it makes no difference if the game has 100 hours worth of levelling content and then stops, or if it has 95 hours worth of levelling content and then 5 hours at the end that can be repeated ad nauseum for slightly better gear per 5 hours of time investment. For the hardcore player it might be the difference between quitting after the first week, and sticking with the game until there's more content to burn through and a new treadmill. There's no doubt which model is more profitable.
The only solution I can see is dividing content into casual and time intensive, but then you have the problem of what is going to be casual and what is going to be time intensive. Unfortunately you do get players who think that because they have paid their sub they are entitled to finish attempt all content even if they never play more than half an hour a day.
Dividing content is not the solution; it arbitrarily prevents people even attempting certain things.
The preferred solution is to make all content accessible to casuals. Present all content in 30-60 minute parcels, and everyone is happy. The casuals can enjoy a productive 30 minute content parcel, and others can do as many of them as they have time to play.
That's not to say that every raid (or content equivalent) should be 30 minutes long; having a 4 hour instance that can be broken down into 8 x 30 minute segments and completed progressively over the course of several days works fine.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Think of an MMO being like the series of 24 and you have never seen any episodes, You can start watching it, maybe an episode a night or perhaps even 2. In time you will have caught up with season 8 (probably around two months). In between all of that, you have went to your job, met with your friends. Pleased your women (for some this one is also iffy) and so forth..
But during the course of that month you will still have gotten the enjoyment of the whole series, which is fair since you paid good money for the show. Some however, who have more time than they can shake a big stick at, burn through the entire show in two weeks. Why? because they can. When they get to the end, they love the show so much that they spend the following two months re watching there favourite parts. These people tend to go on about how much of a bigger fan of 24 they are than everyone else. Some might even re watch it all again.
Now the reason for the analogy - People who play an MMO a couple of hours a night, will enjoy the game over a vast period of time. Eventually getting to end game. And enjoying the end game dungeons. (let's say five to six months). Everyone can do this!
People who play an MMO everyday for five hours plus, will finish the game in a couple of weeks, explore end game dungeons. Enjoy it so much, that they keep doing the same dungeons over and over again. (re watching there favourite shows). They will do this in the 'pretence' about becoming better and will even match there characters against other casual gamers to declare how much better they are. They will even re roll another character and play that to end game. Not everyone can do this!
An analogy is usually used to simply something - in conclusion a hardcore gamer is usually someone who has no real focus in there lives and is in desperate search for instant gratification. I can't for the life of me figure out why any gaming company in it's right mind would want to cater for it.
would say you can complain about lack of end game content or content over all, when you marked your game a MMO, you give the impression that this is my new "virtual life" and should always have something to do in it, that make some sort of minor diffrence....
it is sort of a problem for a MMO producer, when they design a game to be played 1-3 hours a day, because its just not the strengths of an MMO, if you want the instant gratification, offline games just do so much better.
I d agree with the guy saying they forgetting the "other stuff" seems companies think oh you put in kill 10x something or make them got through x amount instances 100 times and ppl will actually pay 15$/month ?!? suuure we do that. Its just not what make a virtual life, its part of it.
that aside 1-3 hour should be enough to play an MMO, but when you can put a time stamp on when an MMO is completed its just way too linear and flat.
nate1980 thx for your concerns about humanity, you almost made me wish world go under tomorrow, as it will not persist forever and utopia is something you create for your children. childhood is utopia where nothing else but the relations to others and having fun is all that matters...not who will invent the next mcdonalds...
over all Id find this whole "how man should live" abit of a derail of the topic....even if you made it that way :P
The line between having no life or being hardcore changes depending on the type of game you're playing. When I was growning up, it would cost you $10 to play an arcade game for an hour.... if you were good. THAT was considered hardcore back in the day. I'm way into Bullet hell Shmups, but I only put about 20 minutes at a time into them every now and again. About a month ago, I took Mame with a few choice Roms to work on a USB drive to play during my breaks. A co-worker watched over my shoulder as I blew through the first three levels of Raiden on one life and made a comment about how I must have no life. The time to acquire those kinds of skills (per session) were minimal, but most people don't know that. Likewise, it just makes more sense to make games that have large numbers of short play sessions. Most people don't have a lot of time to spare and making a game that requires enourmous time investment for even a minimal return in gratification creates a barrier to entry that most people won't even bother with. The exception to this rule is the fighting game genre where the time per session is minimal, but the number of sessions required to become viable in multiplayer is staggering. Part of the reason why I don't play MMOs is due to the time commitment. Given, recent MMORPGs have cut this considerably but in the early days, pre-WoW, you had to play 20 hours a week MINIMUM just get anything accomplished. This usually meant that you didn't get to play any other games either. Anymore, I'd say that I only play about 10 hours a week and I have to work my schedule just to find that kind of time. As far as designing for time, I think that most developers are just following the habits of gamers. We now have the ability to track this to a much greater extent than ever before. Here are som interesting numbers that I pulled from info on Xfire..... Average time spent per day, per player: World of Warcraft - 5 hours Modern Warfare 2 - 2 hours Lord of The Rings Online - 4.5 hours Team Fortress 2 - 2 hours Eve Online - 6 hours Starcraft - 2 hours Darkfall - 7.5 hours League of Legends - 3.7 hours WH40K: Dawn of War - 2 hours As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day or roughly the same amount of time that the average person spent watching TV in 1986. Now the new question is: how much more time than the average must you invest in order to be "hardcore?"
I'm no expert, and I doubt an expert exists for this, so I can't say where normal play ends and hardcore begins. I /played myself yesterday on STO, and I came up with an average of 5 hours per day. Now that was probably influenced by my all day gaming session I did yesterday, but regardless, we're talking averages here.
I think because of people who are only weekend players, when discussing what is casual, normal, and hardcore play, we should judge that on a week to week basis. I personally think somewhere around 10 hours or less a week is pretty casual. Around 20 hours per week is pretty normal for a person who games as a hobby instead of watching TV or other things, but still has a social life. Around 30 hours a week or more is hardcore play I think.
Something else to consider is that 2 weeks of hardcore play, followed by casual or normal play isn't really the same as every week being hardcore play. However, since we're talking about how many hours a day, on average, a person should play if they hope to not be bored or burnt on on MMO's, I'd say about 3 hours a day is the average. Anymore than that, and I think the player is the only person to blame for boredom, burnout, or a lack of content.
There is no standard time we should play each day, it is up to the player how much time he plays. The problem is what is a minimum and maximum that can be expected each day? If you can’t log on for an hour should you be playing a MMO, I don’t think so. Long spells are fine as long as they are not expected every day, a 4 hour raid once a week is not a chore. But it is all relative the circumstances of the player. The problem we have is that in a effort to maximize the player base anything that takes too much time is being dumbed down. This results in us perceiving the game as being too easy and not having enough content. The only solution I can see is dividing content into casual and time intensive, but then you have the problem of what is going to be casual and what is going to be time intensive. Unfortunately you do get players who think that because they have paid their sub they are entitled to finish all content even if they never play more than half an hour a day.
Developers have to plan the amount of content they'll place in their game. So they need to know how long the average player plays per day, week, month. They need to plan it so that they create enough content to please the majority for however long it takes them to release more content if they're looking to maintain the majority of players for any significant amount of time (like months). Developers have to draw a line somewhere, because the more content you make, the less quality the content will have. Resources are limited, so developers have to pick and choose, they can't please everyone, so it's wiser to please your target audience.
This doesn't mean they have to dumb down anything, it just means they need to give players the ability to complete things in the time allotment most people play MMO's on average. If that's 1-3 hours, developers must make sure that the average player can get in and out of danger in 1-3 hours, so they're not having to log off in that dangerous area, or so players don't have to ignore a quest due to its time requirement. Reducing the time for things doesn't dumb anything down. You can still make challenging quests, dungeons, raids, and PvP areas.
MMO's aren't online single player games, so players should be willing for progression to take more time. So if a quest spans several hours, thus a couple days per quest, a player shouldn't complain as long as they're able to log off in a safe area during that quest, without having to fight their way back in the area to get to where they were when they logged off. For example, if a quest tells a person to go into the mines, and drive out the bandits, and to be sure to kill the leader and his Leutinents, that doesn't mean that quest only has to take 1-3 hours. Those mines could be an underground city. Let's say that every half hour, the mines are designed so you run across an area off to the side where it's safe to log out without worrying about drawing agro when you log back in. That's catering to people who play in shorter stints, but doesn't diminish the quality of the quest.
Just play the game until your needs are satisfied, then find your next game. repeat, repeat, etc. Just do what makes you happy, and there is nothing more to it....
Thats probably about right. I think mmorpgs of the future will definitely be more trying to aim for lower times. More freshness of gameplay, instead of stale repetitive OCD gameplay.
The problem is that developers don't have the ability to think and turn their players into content rather than trying to program faster that they can grind. This wouldn't be a problem if a game have constant player events (Taking control of towns or building them, creating an in game religion and recruiting people o the cult for it to get stronger, get a horde of mounted players and travel a la Genghis Khan and make the in game newspaper?)
No kidding. That's why there is no complaint of end game content in Eve and why instead of adding generic PvE content, they add new features to the game.
As to the OP - I don't even find MMOs playable for that stretch. If something is interactive I usually expect a challenge out of it to keep me busy. I could play golf from sun up to sun down if I had the money and time because I never will feel that I've mastered it. MMOs on the other hand I just do the same thing over and over except I happen to be fighting slightly new mobs along the way. But many other people are addicted to achievement rather than challenge and MMOs do that very well. So people are going to play umpteen hours per day until satisfied with their achievement level or run out of time.
I'm going to address 2 items from this thread without the "wall-of-text-of-death"
(1) STO - Great ship combat simulator and like many MMOs before...released not even closed to being finished. I canceled my pre-order with Amazon and will wait to see what happens.
(2) I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them" Well..I have my own business...my wife and I do not have children and both game over 8 hours a day. I personally think that couples who both work excessive hours to buy lots of stuff...travel and raise rugrats are unbalanced, but hey...that's just me
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
(2) I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them" Well..I have my own business...my wife and I do not have children and both game over 8 hours a day. I personally think that couples who both work excessive hours to buy lots of stuff...travel and raise rugrats are unbalanced, but hey...that's just me
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
(2) I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them" Well..I have my own business...my wife and I do not have children and both game over 8 hours a day. I personally think that couples who both work excessive hours to buy lots of stuff...travel and raise rugrats are unbalanced, but hey...that's just me
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
Well...our house is next door to my office/warehouse so getting ready or prepared for work is not an issue...no travel time. And..I'm happy NOT to conform to what society considers normal...because it's anything but "normal" I'm sick of "society" trying to tell me what to eat..what not to eat...banning trans fats one year and saying they're the cure for cancer the next and supporting Global Warming when it's total BS and a way for 3rd world countries to fleece others out of huge sums of money (ie. The U.N.)
What I choose to do with my free time is my business...and I LOVE to game. I also love photography...spending in-game time (and out) with my wife and NOT having kids.
One more thing: the whole "internet addiction" thing is a farce also and just a way for this "condition" to be classified as a well....condition... so insurance companies can benefit as well as the nutbags who "treat" them.
I'm not liking what "society" deems the norm at the moment and I choose NOT to participate...thank you.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Interesting numbers that I pulled from info on Xfire..... Average time spent per day, per player: World of Warcraft - 5 hours Modern Warfare 2 - 2 hours Lord of The Rings Online - 4.5 hours Team Fortress 2 - 2 hours Eve Online - 6 hours Starcraft - 2 hours Darkfall - 7.5 hours League of Legends - 3.7 hours WH40K: Dawn of War - 2 hours As you can see, MMOs take the largest amount of time per day. Averaging just the time of the games listed, we come to about 5 hours and 45 minutes a day or roughly the same amount of time that the average person spent watching TV in 1986. Now the new question is: how much more time than the average must you invest in order to be "hardcore?"
Nothing can be concluded from this sample. You've isolated a niche segment of a playerbase- the very niche that is hardcore enough to want to document their playtime. There's an entire realm of casual players that outnumber xfire users with significantly less playtime. We know this through subscription numbers versus players present via xfire sampling.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Nothing can be concluded from this sample. You've isolated a niche segment of a playerbase- the very niche that is hardcore enough to want to document their playtime. There's an entire realm of casual players that outnumber xfire users with significantly less playtime. We know this through subscription numbers versus players present via xfire sampling.
First off I'd just like to point out that it is very rarely the players themselves who record such information. It has nothing to do w/ hardcore vs. casual. What that reflects is the average log times recorded by the game developers. Nearly every dev team does this, it's not some 'niche' practice.
That being said, I think the OP is generally right (though his play times may be low-balling it slightly). This has nothing to do w/ game companies telling players how much to play. It has to do with game companies realizing that most people cannot play games for 7-10-24 hours a day. Good business sense means that they will want to cater towards the average times that people DO have to play these games. As we have more and more things cluttering up our adult lives, it means less time for games. That's just the way it is.
What the OP is referring to, is the pretty obvious trend that developers are more frequently designing games to be enjoyable with less time played. Some may add in other elements for people with higher play times, but it tends to be minimal compared to the rest of the game. Of course, people who do play these games for longer don't like this, but that's life. It takes a tremendous amount of time, talent, and resources to make a standup MMO. It only makes sense that most of those resources are going to go towards the largest percentage of the playerbase possible.
(2) I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them" Well..I have my own business...my wife and I do not have children and both game over 8 hours a day. I personally think that couples who both work excessive hours to buy lots of stuff...travel and raise rugrats are unbalanced, but hey...that's just me
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
Well...our house is next door to my office/warehouse so getting ready or prepared for work is not an issue...no travel time. And..I'm happy NOT to conform to what society considers normal...because it's anything but "normal" I'm sick of "society" trying to tell me what to eat..what not to eat...banning trans fats one year and saying they're the cure for cancer the next and supporting Global Warming when it's total BS and a way for 3rd world countries to fleece others out of huge sums of money (ie. The U.N.)
What I choose to do with my free time is my business...and I LOVE to game. I also love photography...spending in-game time (and out) with my wife and NOT having kids.
One more thing: the whole "internet addiction" thing is a farce also and just a way for this "condition" to be classified as a well....condition... so insurance companies can benefit as well as the nutbags who "treat" them.
I'm not liking what "society" deems the norm at the moment and I choose NOT to participate...thank you.
I was merely pointing out that you can't have a full time job, spend 8+ hours a day on computer games and be considered normal. Hence the "I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them"" is to be expected. I agree with you that striving to be normal is stupid, though, and living a normal life is rarely the same as being happy. You've found something that works for you, and if that means "there's something wrong with you", so what? The majority decides what's normal, but the individual decides what's best for them.
Nothing can be concluded from this sample. You've isolated a niche segment of a playerbase- the very niche that is hardcore enough to want to document their playtime. There's an entire realm of casual players that outnumber xfire users with significantly less playtime. We know this through subscription numbers versus players present via xfire sampling.
First off I'd just like to point out that it is very rarely the players themselves who record such information. It has nothing to do w/ hardcore vs. casual. What that reflects is the average log times recorded by the game developers. Nearly every dev team does this, it's not some 'niche' practice.
That being said, I think the OP is generally right (though his play times may be low-balling it slightly). This has nothing to do w/ game companies telling players how much to play. It has to do with game companies realizing that most people cannot play games for 7-10-24 hours a day. Good business sense means that they will want to cater towards the average times that people DO have to play these games. As we have more and more things cluttering up our adult lives, it means less time for games. That's just the way it is.
What the OP is referring to, is the pretty obvious trend that developers are more frequently designing games to be enjoyable with less time played. Some may add in other elements for people with higher play times, but it tends to be minimal compared to the rest of the game. Of course, people who do play these games for longer don't like this, but that's life. It takes a tremendous amount of time, talent, and resources to make a standup MMO. It only makes sense that most of those resources are going to go towards the largest percentage of the playerbase possible.
Proof of your claims? Xfire, by their own words, is a user-run tool. Not only that, but it's a user-run tool that has a *bias* towards Viacom. It absolutely *is* niche: the people who are 'hardcore enough' to be involved to the degree of a 'life online' ie. instant messaging, podcasting and the like.
Extracted from the front page:
" XfireTM is a free tool that automatically keeps track of when and where gamers are playing PC games online and lets their friends join them easily. It works regardless of game type, server browser, or gaming service that a player is using. Xfire eliminates the hassles of running multiple programs like IRC, instant messengers, or in-game friends lists to keep track of when and where a gamer's friends are playing. It supports the best and the latest online PC games including server and non-server-based First Person Shooters, Real Time Strategy, and Role Playing Games. Xfire HQ is located in Menlo Park, California.
Xfire combines instant messaging, a server browser, peer-to-peer file downloads, in-game messaging, screenshot and video capture and one of the most active gaming communities in the world into a small, simple package. Best of all, it's free!
In April of 2006, Xfire was acquired by Viacom. Viacom is one of the leading global entertainment content companies, with prominent and respected brands in focused demographics. Offering programming and content for television, motion pictures and digital platforms, Viacom's world-class brands include MTV Networks (MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, Nick at Nite, Comedy Central, CMT: Country Music Television, Spike TV, TV Land, Logo and more than 120 networks around the world), BET Networks, Paramount Pictures, Paramount Home Entertainment, DreamWorks and Famous Music. More information about Viacom and its businesses is available at www.viacom.com. "
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
There was a good Playon census stats some time ago which showed more accurately average times spent but it seems to have gone. But Nick Yee did some studies on this and it was found in those stats:
"1) It takes on average 20 full days of playing time for a character to get from level 1 to level 60. Thats 60 full work-days or 3 full work months (since wed get weekends off in a work month)."
This doesn't really say much one way or the other but it does gives a revealing stat.
Comments
Some people do these marathon play sessions that last more than 24 hours straight. And then they wonder why they suffer burn out.
I know this one guy who sat so long that his hands swelled up.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
You made a good post and I agree with a lot of things you said. However, the primary point of your argument is exactly what is wrong with mmos today. The idea of mmos as storys and quests. Yes, quests and stories are necessary and fun, but a complete mmo is about so much more. Exploration, crafting, economy, socializing, resource hunting, hunting for components and enhancments, pvp, politics. Those are but a sliver of the minigames that a mmo should have in it. Devs keep releasing these mmos that they put tons of hours in developing quests and stories for, but they always forget about the "other stuff" and wonder why people blow through content so quickly. It's the "other stuff" that make a game a mmorpg rather than a morpg.
Without discussing the validity of input data and methods used, how did you get that average number of 5.75 hours per day?
Using simple average of hours you posted:
Hours total: 34.7
Games listed: 9
Average: 3.86 hours
Without discussing the validity of input data and methods used, how did you get that average number of 5.75 hours per day?
Using simple average of hours you posted:
Hours total: 34.7
Games listed: 9
Average: 3.86 hours
The games listed with low hours are not mmos that's why
As my last post of the night, and likely my most incoherent, I would like to state that I agree with the OP.
The majority of MMOs releasing today are centered towards a wider crowd, the crowd that works/maintains a life along side their games.
While this really helps them, it does kind of screw over those who can play for longer stints of time.
I suppose that as I grow older, I'll come to enjoy not having to be forced to play for eight hours a day just to compete
For now though...
...screw the casuals! Give me a game that will really destroy any chance of having a teenage social life!
...(No seriously, it's already gone, please give me the damn game.)...
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
There is no standard time we should play each day, it is up to the player how much time he plays. The problem is what is a minimum and maximum that can be expected each day? If you can’t log on for an hour should you be playing a MMO, I don’t think so. Long spells are fine as long as they are not expected every day, a 4 hour raid once a week is not a chore.
But it is all relative the circumstances of the player. The problem we have is that in a effort to maximize the player base anything that takes too much time is being dumbed down. This results in us perceiving the game as being too easy and not having enough content.
The only solution I can see is dividing content into casual and time intensive, but then you have the problem of what is going to be casual and what is going to be time intensive. Unfortunately you do get players who think that because they have paid their sub they are entitled to finish all content even if they never play more than half an hour a day.
Ah, if that is true, then the assumption is invalid because the list does not meet the least requirement of equal category substitution nor it represents a valid sample.
While I agree with the OP that most MMOs are designed to be played 1-3 hours a day, I see no reason why developers shouldn't make an effort to give the "hardcore" crowd the illusion of an end game. To those who play the game as intended, it makes no difference if the game has 100 hours worth of levelling content and then stops, or if it has 95 hours worth of levelling content and then 5 hours at the end that can be repeated ad nauseum for slightly better gear per 5 hours of time investment. For the hardcore player it might be the difference between quitting after the first week, and sticking with the game until there's more content to burn through and a new treadmill. There's no doubt which model is more profitable.
Dividing content is not the solution; it arbitrarily prevents people even attempting certain things.
The preferred solution is to make all content accessible to casuals. Present all content in 30-60 minute parcels, and everyone is happy. The casuals can enjoy a productive 30 minute content parcel, and others can do as many of them as they have time to play.
That's not to say that every raid (or content equivalent) should be 30 minutes long; having a 4 hour instance that can be broken down into 8 x 30 minute segments and completed progressively over the course of several days works fine.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Nice post.
The way I see it is this!
Think of an MMO being like the series of 24 and you have never seen any episodes, You can start watching it, maybe an episode a night or perhaps even 2. In time you will have caught up with season 8 (probably around two months). In between all of that, you have went to your job, met with your friends. Pleased your women (for some this one is also iffy) and so forth..
But during the course of that month you will still have gotten the enjoyment of the whole series, which is fair since you paid good money for the show. Some however, who have more time than they can shake a big stick at, burn through the entire show in two weeks. Why? because they can. When they get to the end, they love the show so much that they spend the following two months re watching there favourite parts. These people tend to go on about how much of a bigger fan of 24 they are than everyone else. Some might even re watch it all again.
Now the reason for the analogy - People who play an MMO a couple of hours a night, will enjoy the game over a vast period of time. Eventually getting to end game. And enjoying the end game dungeons. (let's say five to six months). Everyone can do this!
People who play an MMO everyday for five hours plus, will finish the game in a couple of weeks, explore end game dungeons. Enjoy it so much, that they keep doing the same dungeons over and over again. (re watching there favourite shows). They will do this in the 'pretence' about becoming better and will even match there characters against other casual gamers to declare how much better they are. They will even re roll another character and play that to end game. Not everyone can do this!
An analogy is usually used to simply something - in conclusion a hardcore gamer is usually someone who has no real focus in there lives and is in desperate search for instant gratification. I can't for the life of me figure out why any gaming company in it's right mind would want to cater for it.
would say you can complain about lack of end game content or content over all, when you marked your game a MMO, you give the impression that this is my new "virtual life" and should always have something to do in it, that make some sort of minor diffrence....
it is sort of a problem for a MMO producer, when they design a game to be played 1-3 hours a day, because its just not the strengths of an MMO, if you want the instant gratification, offline games just do so much better.
I d agree with the guy saying they forgetting the "other stuff" seems companies think oh you put in kill 10x something or make them got through x amount instances 100 times and ppl will actually pay 15$/month ?!? suuure we do that. Its just not what make a virtual life, its part of it.
that aside 1-3 hour should be enough to play an MMO, but when you can put a time stamp on when an MMO is completed its just way too linear and flat.
nate1980 thx for your concerns about humanity, you almost made me wish world go under tomorrow, as it will not persist forever and utopia is something you create for your children. childhood is utopia where nothing else but the relations to others and having fun is all that matters...not who will invent the next mcdonalds...
over all Id find this whole "how man should live" abit of a derail of the topic....even if you made it that way :P
I'm no expert, and I doubt an expert exists for this, so I can't say where normal play ends and hardcore begins. I /played myself yesterday on STO, and I came up with an average of 5 hours per day. Now that was probably influenced by my all day gaming session I did yesterday, but regardless, we're talking averages here.
I think because of people who are only weekend players, when discussing what is casual, normal, and hardcore play, we should judge that on a week to week basis. I personally think somewhere around 10 hours or less a week is pretty casual. Around 20 hours per week is pretty normal for a person who games as a hobby instead of watching TV or other things, but still has a social life. Around 30 hours a week or more is hardcore play I think.
Something else to consider is that 2 weeks of hardcore play, followed by casual or normal play isn't really the same as every week being hardcore play. However, since we're talking about how many hours a day, on average, a person should play if they hope to not be bored or burnt on on MMO's, I'd say about 3 hours a day is the average. Anymore than that, and I think the player is the only person to blame for boredom, burnout, or a lack of content.
Developers have to plan the amount of content they'll place in their game. So they need to know how long the average player plays per day, week, month. They need to plan it so that they create enough content to please the majority for however long it takes them to release more content if they're looking to maintain the majority of players for any significant amount of time (like months). Developers have to draw a line somewhere, because the more content you make, the less quality the content will have. Resources are limited, so developers have to pick and choose, they can't please everyone, so it's wiser to please your target audience.
This doesn't mean they have to dumb down anything, it just means they need to give players the ability to complete things in the time allotment most people play MMO's on average. If that's 1-3 hours, developers must make sure that the average player can get in and out of danger in 1-3 hours, so they're not having to log off in that dangerous area, or so players don't have to ignore a quest due to its time requirement. Reducing the time for things doesn't dumb anything down. You can still make challenging quests, dungeons, raids, and PvP areas.
MMO's aren't online single player games, so players should be willing for progression to take more time. So if a quest spans several hours, thus a couple days per quest, a player shouldn't complain as long as they're able to log off in a safe area during that quest, without having to fight their way back in the area to get to where they were when they logged off. For example, if a quest tells a person to go into the mines, and drive out the bandits, and to be sure to kill the leader and his Leutinents, that doesn't mean that quest only has to take 1-3 hours. Those mines could be an underground city. Let's say that every half hour, the mines are designed so you run across an area off to the side where it's safe to log out without worrying about drawing agro when you log back in. That's catering to people who play in shorter stints, but doesn't diminish the quality of the quest.
Just play the game until your needs are satisfied, then find your next game. repeat, repeat, etc. Just do what makes you happy, and there is nothing more to it....
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
Thats probably about right. I think mmorpgs of the future will definitely be more trying to aim for lower times. More freshness of gameplay, instead of stale repetitive OCD gameplay.
No kidding. That's why there is no complaint of end game content in Eve and why instead of adding generic PvE content, they add new features to the game.
As to the OP - I don't even find MMOs playable for that stretch. If something is interactive I usually expect a challenge out of it to keep me busy. I could play golf from sun up to sun down if I had the money and time because I never will feel that I've mastered it. MMOs on the other hand I just do the same thing over and over except I happen to be fighting slightly new mobs along the way. But many other people are addicted to achievement rather than challenge and MMOs do that very well. So people are going to play umpteen hours per day until satisfied with their achievement level or run out of time.
I'm going to address 2 items from this thread without the "wall-of-text-of-death"
(1) STO - Great ship combat simulator and like many MMOs before...released not even closed to being finished. I canceled my pre-order with Amazon and will wait to see what happens.
(2) I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them" Well..I have my own business...my wife and I do not have children and both game over 8 hours a day. I personally think that couples who both work excessive hours to buy lots of stuff...travel and raise rugrats are unbalanced, but hey...that's just me
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
Well...our house is next door to my office/warehouse so getting ready or prepared for work is not an issue...no travel time. And..I'm happy NOT to conform to what society considers normal...because it's anything but "normal" I'm sick of "society" trying to tell me what to eat..what not to eat...banning trans fats one year and saying they're the cure for cancer the next and supporting Global Warming when it's total BS and a way for 3rd world countries to fleece others out of huge sums of money (ie. The U.N.)
What I choose to do with my free time is my business...and I LOVE to game. I also love photography...spending in-game time (and out) with my wife and NOT having kids.
One more thing: the whole "internet addiction" thing is a farce also and just a way for this "condition" to be classified as a well....condition... so insurance companies can benefit as well as the nutbags who "treat" them.
I'm not liking what "society" deems the norm at the moment and I choose NOT to participate...thank you.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Nothing can be concluded from this sample. You've isolated a niche segment of a playerbase- the very niche that is hardcore enough to want to document their playtime. There's an entire realm of casual players that outnumber xfire users with significantly less playtime. We know this through subscription numbers versus players present via xfire sampling.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
First off I'd just like to point out that it is very rarely the players themselves who record such information. It has nothing to do w/ hardcore vs. casual. What that reflects is the average log times recorded by the game developers. Nearly every dev team does this, it's not some 'niche' practice.
That being said, I think the OP is generally right (though his play times may be low-balling it slightly). This has nothing to do w/ game companies telling players how much to play. It has to do with game companies realizing that most people cannot play games for 7-10-24 hours a day. Good business sense means that they will want to cater towards the average times that people DO have to play these games. As we have more and more things cluttering up our adult lives, it means less time for games. That's just the way it is.
What the OP is referring to, is the pretty obvious trend that developers are more frequently designing games to be enjoyable with less time played. Some may add in other elements for people with higher play times, but it tends to be minimal compared to the rest of the game. Of course, people who do play these games for longer don't like this, but that's life. It takes a tremendous amount of time, talent, and resources to make a standup MMO. It only makes sense that most of those resources are going to go towards the largest percentage of the playerbase possible.
Of course there are exceptions, but most people sleep 7 hours or more. A normal work day is 8 hours in most countries. Most people need at least an hour to prepare for work, get to work, and get back from work. That leaves at most 8 hours. If someone spends every minute of their spare time in front of a computer playing games, they're obviously missing out on a social life. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with them, but they are certainly deviating from the norms of society.
Well...our house is next door to my office/warehouse so getting ready or prepared for work is not an issue...no travel time. And..I'm happy NOT to conform to what society considers normal...because it's anything but "normal" I'm sick of "society" trying to tell me what to eat..what not to eat...banning trans fats one year and saying they're the cure for cancer the next and supporting Global Warming when it's total BS and a way for 3rd world countries to fleece others out of huge sums of money (ie. The U.N.)
What I choose to do with my free time is my business...and I LOVE to game. I also love photography...spending in-game time (and out) with my wife and NOT having kids.
One more thing: the whole "internet addiction" thing is a farce also and just a way for this "condition" to be classified as a well....condition... so insurance companies can benefit as well as the nutbags who "treat" them.
I'm not liking what "society" deems the norm at the moment and I choose NOT to participate...thank you.
I was merely pointing out that you can't have a full time job, spend 8+ hours a day on computer games and be considered normal. Hence the "I've noticed many posts here that basically refer to gamers who spend 8 hours a day playing as "having something wrong with them"" is to be expected. I agree with you that striving to be normal is stupid, though, and living a normal life is rarely the same as being happy. You've found something that works for you, and if that means "there's something wrong with you", so what? The majority decides what's normal, but the individual decides what's best for them.
First off I'd just like to point out that it is very rarely the players themselves who record such information. It has nothing to do w/ hardcore vs. casual. What that reflects is the average log times recorded by the game developers. Nearly every dev team does this, it's not some 'niche' practice.
That being said, I think the OP is generally right (though his play times may be low-balling it slightly). This has nothing to do w/ game companies telling players how much to play. It has to do with game companies realizing that most people cannot play games for 7-10-24 hours a day. Good business sense means that they will want to cater towards the average times that people DO have to play these games. As we have more and more things cluttering up our adult lives, it means less time for games. That's just the way it is.
What the OP is referring to, is the pretty obvious trend that developers are more frequently designing games to be enjoyable with less time played. Some may add in other elements for people with higher play times, but it tends to be minimal compared to the rest of the game. Of course, people who do play these games for longer don't like this, but that's life. It takes a tremendous amount of time, talent, and resources to make a standup MMO. It only makes sense that most of those resources are going to go towards the largest percentage of the playerbase possible.
Proof of your claims? Xfire, by their own words, is a user-run tool. Not only that, but it's a user-run tool that has a *bias* towards Viacom. It absolutely *is* niche: the people who are 'hardcore enough' to be involved to the degree of a 'life online' ie. instant messaging, podcasting and the like.
Extracted from the front page:
" XfireTM is a free tool that automatically keeps track of when and where gamers are playing PC games online and lets their friends join them easily. It works regardless of game type, server browser, or gaming service that a player is using. Xfire eliminates the hassles of running multiple programs like IRC, instant messengers, or in-game friends lists to keep track of when and where a gamer's friends are playing. It supports the best and the latest online PC games including server and non-server-based First Person Shooters, Real Time Strategy, and Role Playing Games. Xfire HQ is located in Menlo Park, California.
Xfire combines instant messaging, a server browser, peer-to-peer file downloads, in-game messaging, screenshot and video capture and one of the most active gaming communities in the world into a small, simple package. Best of all, it's free!
In April of 2006, Xfire was acquired by Viacom. Viacom is one of the leading global entertainment content companies, with prominent and respected brands in focused demographics. Offering programming and content for television, motion pictures and digital platforms, Viacom's world-class brands include MTV Networks (MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon, Nick at Nite, Comedy Central, CMT: Country Music Television, Spike TV, TV Land, Logo and more than 120 networks around the world), BET Networks, Paramount Pictures, Paramount Home Entertainment, DreamWorks and Famous Music. More information about Viacom and its businesses is available at www.viacom.com. "
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
There was a good Playon census stats some time ago which showed more accurately average times spent but it seems to have gone. But Nick Yee did some studies on this and it was found in those stats:
"1) It takes on average 20 full days of playing time for a character to get from level 1 to level 60. Thats 60 full work-days or 3 full work months (since wed get weekends off in a work month)."
This doesn't really say much one way or the other but it does gives a revealing stat.
I did find these two extra on Daedalus project:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001536.php
which states that younger players play more than older players. (well that logically follows anyway)
And average number of hours a week:
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000758.php
I don't understand the point of this thread..................
There is plenty of MMO who needs less than 3 hours a day in order to be competitive.
And yes, they are the ones nobody plays....................because those are not actually real MMORPGs.
So you want to convert all the rest of MMORPG into something no one want to play just because it suits the time you can dedicate to them?
Lol, go and play COD Warfare 2, it is extrememly fun and you can log on for 30 minutes if you feel like.
Leave the MMORPGs alone..........they are not for you or people like you.