Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
I think the main point I'm trying to make here is that cost to the players is not going up on the sub montly end. These are the new tactics games are using to rake in additional revenue. I personal would choose optional paided service items over higher sub costs. Btw I can see your side of the convo and I enjoy our debate! >: )
yeah, nice to have a chat with someone who dosent see me as their mortal enemy just because we have different views lol.
I get what your saying about the subs being kept down, but I wonder how true that is... I mean, i am definitly paying more for subs these days and since '99 I have seen a slow rise in monthly pricing. If that isnt enough, which I wouldnt be offended if they said it wasnt, they could easily slap another £1 on that (which in a average game of 250,000 users would prolly net them £3,000,000 or so more a year extra) which really should be enough to absorb inflation and whatever. No problems and noone offended (well, noone sensible).
With MT in a game like Aion they get to charge a premium sub AND gain the revenue far in excess of an extra £1 a month from each user...
I mean, £5.99 for a seasonal event pack, half of which is recycled content? Thats not even sane pricing.
I think it's very obvious that this is just the water tester to try out market tolerance of the model in this game. If it is supported and accepted then how long before we see more and more packs being introduced into the NCS store? How long before in game rewards that become 'essential' to play? £20 to gain the L40 vet award wings for your character? Lodas amulets for £2 each? How about to complete your daevian armour? Want some Abyss points? Kinah?
The more that is accepted, the more they will push.
I honestly have no trust or faith in NCS after how they have handled Aion up to now, and I have no belief that they will do the 'right thing' by the game or their customers, only by their accountants and shareholders.
Despite the spin and pleading broke many devs use in order to justify and rationalise MT in their games, I think it is obvious that NCS are making amazing profits off just the sub alone for Aion. Noone would mind this I am sure, but with their push for more, more, MORE, while giving less and less, they are just stepping over the line from fairly won profit into blatant exploitative greed.
Thats how I see it anyhow ;P
I don't really think that Ncsoft west is trying to get money becasue they are broke but I think we all know that subs is never a sure thing (Mythic). You need to find a way to keep money coming in. Yes subs have went up over the years and many players didn't like it.. Companies had to find a way to survive when inflation goes up. Paid services, collectible items and pre-orders are the answers. Will this lead to items for sale that are essenstial to play? I strongly doubt it. Because believe it or not companies want to keep their players happy (within reason). I have noticed a trend in the gaming industry lately where the companies offer items, downloads and even head-start guides for people to pre-order. They are taking steps to insure their survival with minimal impact on the players while at the same time making the player think he got something out of the deal.
Time will tell where this is going. As I see it now, Ncsoft is taking steps to insure that they can continue their game, develop content and still make a profit. I mean they still have to make a profit or there would be no game. Its terrible but true.
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable. You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
I don't think thats entirely fair Lath.. I havent missed your point, and I have answered it clearly several times
As for paid services... well, I have said repeatedly that paid services are fine. It's in game MT that is the problem... the sale of in game rewards. It's even in my sig
The fee obviously IS enough to support a game, I have demonstrated that in pointing to the thriving ('thriving' as in the definition of getting paid, delivering free expansions, and expanding their live team) existence of sub only games. Hell, even Funcom are live developing/ fixing AoC, a game struggling to regain it's feet, on a sub only.
You say "realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies", but I say that statement is just false. It obviously is, as shown by the companies that exist on just that.
Your entire point of view seems to be based on the corporate created fallacy that somehow the sub model is suddenly broken, and again i say thats just wrong. It clearly isnt, it clearly just dosent deliver the obscene profit margains that MT does (at the cost of the customer and the game itself).
As for how would I generate more revenue in a MMORPG *IF* I needed to? Simple, and I have kinda said it already, I would raise the sub cost, as devs have been doing up to now successfully for years. You say 'people don't like it', but you know what? It was under the sub model being raised like this over the years that the MMORPG user base in the West reached WoW like numbers, so people can't have hated it all that much right?
I don't really think that Ncsoft west is trying to get money becasue they are broke but I think we all know that subs is never a sure thing (Mythic). You need to find a way to keep money coming in. Yes subs have went up over the years and many players didn't like it.. Companies had to find a way to survive when inflation goes up. Paid services, collectible items and pre-orders are the answers. Will this lead to items for sale that are essenstial to play? I strongly doubt it. Because believe it or not companies want to keep their players happy (within reason). I have noticed a trend in the gaming industry lately where the companies offer items, downloads and even head-start guides for people to pre-order. They are taking steps to insure their survival with minimal impact on the players while at the same time making the player think he got something out of the deal. Time will tell where this is going. As I see it now, Ncsoft is taking steps to insure that they can continue their game, develop content and still make a profit. I mean they still have to make a profit or there would be no game. Its terrible but true.
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable.
We have talked about this already though...
In Aion users pay a sub to access the content (use the service). Not only has that service been cut (the removal of 'free' seasonal events) and the value offered reduced, but they have introduced the replacement of it as a paid pack (half of which is existing recycled content) without communication, explanation, or apology.
Unbelievable, really, and this is why I can't trust this corporation going forward. This is a big part as to why I do not have your faith in their good intentions with regards to MT and their cash shop.
Imo, anyone who ignores this warning shot (because this IS a water tester to try out market tolerance) and everyone who says nothing is asking for more and more. Those people will see you buying kinah by the end of the year, while all the while NCS will be spinning it to say it is responding to 'customer demand' to 'improve' it's cash store, while claiming it is acting to 'protect them from evil 3rd party gold sellers'.
This isnt an issue about the MT content being essential to play or not, it's about a dishonest revenue model that no customer should tolerate.
If, looking at that financial report I linked, you honestly think NCS *needed* to do this to support an 'ailing sub model' then I honestly do not think anything I can say will ever reach you, and certainly not in this conversation. Thats not to say I don't think you seem an intelligent decent guy, but we arnt ever gonna come to an agreement here
Profit is fine, but profiteering should imo never be supported, and lets not even touch on the uneven split of finite and limited dev resources between the 'free' game and the MT shop and how that effects ALL players (those that MT or otherwise).
Also, all we have talked about as well so far is the money side of things so far.... We havent even touched on how turning games into virtual market spaces destroys what fundamentally makes them a game even.
You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
Well, a rev model that hides the true cost of play from the user could actually be defined as 'charging you behind your back' I think.
And 'optional'.... well, thats a much used word by MT defenders, and it ignores many many issues that I won't cover right here (though I will talk about the psychology of retail and the consumer if you like). The bottom line is though that MT trades mainly off the gullible, young, and 'addicted', which also makes it pretty exploitative.
The fact is though that the Sub+MT still blocks off content off from users who are already paying premium sub who don't wish to take them up on their 'option' and that dosent sit well with a lot of folks. It's a push too far for many. I mean, look at the back pedalling that Cryptic have had to do recently for proof of that right?
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
You are actually pleading poverty for NCS? That the MT model was introduced to make them financially viable? Really? Have you even looked at that financial report for last year?
Have you looked at how *little* the running costs have actually increased, and how much the PROFIT has? If you havent, you should. It kinda blows this entire view right out of the water.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Well, my subs *havent* stayed the same (as I said before). They have risen over the years, and not once have I complained. The only difference now is that I am expected to pay a premium sub AND buy additonal content.
You see, the problem I always run into when discussing MT with folks is that the vast majority say 'I support MT, but I never use it...', but yet corps make millions from it. I really have no idea where that extra revenue comes from tbh
Lath, out of interest, what game did you cut your MMORPG teeth on? Was in Runescape or some similar 'F2P'?I only ask to see if that might have a impact on tolerance for MT. Have you ever used cash shops?
The cash shop was the final straw for me, and why I eventually left Aion. The other straw was the freaking GRIND to do what I wanted to do - PvP. You can't PvP your way up to maximum level like you can in Warhammer, so it basically means every alt you make goes through the same boring PvE themepark quests to level 25 before you can even scratch the surface of PvP.
Yeah, not my idea of a good time. The cash shop was the final straw that made me say, buh-bye, NCSoft - if my $14.95 a month wasn't enough for you that you want to nickel and dime me to death as well, I'll head on over to a game that doesn't.
I don't really think that Ncsoft west is trying to get money becasue they are broke but I think we all know that subs is never a sure thing (Mythic). You need to find a way to keep money coming in. Yes subs have went up over the years and many players didn't like it.. Companies had to find a way to survive when inflation goes up. Paid services, collectible items and pre-orders are the answers. Will this lead to items for sale that are essenstial to play? I strongly doubt it. Because believe it or not companies want to keep their players happy (within reason). I have noticed a trend in the gaming industry lately where the companies offer items, downloads and even head-start guides for people to pre-order. They are taking steps to insure their survival with minimal impact on the players while at the same time making the player think he got something out of the deal. Time will tell where this is going. As I see it now, Ncsoft is taking steps to insure that they can continue their game, develop content and still make a profit. I mean they still have to make a profit or there would be no game. Its terrible but true.
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable.
We have talked about this already though...
In Aion users pay a sub to access the content (use the service). Not only has that service been cut (the removal of 'free' seasonal events) and the value offered reduced, but they have introduced the replacement of it as a paid pack (half of which is existing recycled content) without communication, explanation, or apology.
Unbelievable, really, and this is why I can't trust this corporation going forward. This is a big part as to why I do not have your faith in their good intentions with regards to MT and their cash shop.
Imo, anyone who ignores this warning shot (because this IS a water tester to try out market tolerance) and everyone who says nothing is asking for more and more. Those people will see you buying kinah by the end of the year, while all the while NCS will be spinning it to say it is responding to 'customer demand' to 'improve' it's cash store, while claiming it is acting to 'protect them from evil 3rd party gold sellers'.
This isnt an issue about the MT content being essential to play or not, it's about a dishonest revenue model that no customer should tolerate.
If, looking at that financial report I linked, you honestly think NCS *needed* to do this to support an 'ailing sub model' then I honestly do not think anything I can say will ever reach you, and certainly not in this conversation. Thats not to say I don't think you seem an intelligent decent guy, but we arnt ever gonna come to an agreement here
Profit is fine, but profiteering should imo never be supported, and lets not even touch on the uneven split of finite and limited dev resources between the 'free' game and the MT shop and how that effects ALL players (those that MT or otherwise).
Also, all we have talked about as well so far is the money side of things so far.... We havent even touched on how turning games into virtual market spaces destroys what fundamentally makes them a game even.
You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
Well, a rev model that hides the true cost of play from the user could actually be defined as 'charging you behind your back' I think.
And 'optional'.... well, thats a much used word by MT defenders, and it ignores many many issues that I won't cover right here (though I will talk about the psychology of retail and the consumer if you like). The bottom line is though that MT trades mainly off the gullible, young, and 'addicted', which also makes it pretty exploitative.
The fact is though that the Sub+MT still blocks off content off from users who are already paying premium sub who don't wish to take them up on their 'option' and that dosent sit well with a lot of folks. It's a push too far for many. I mean, look at the back pedalling that Cryptic have had to do recently for proof of that right?
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
You are actually pleading poverty for NCS? That the MT model was introduced to make them financially viable? Really? Have you even looked at that financial report for last year?
Have you looked at how *little* the running costs have actually increased, and how much the PROFIT has? If you havent, you should. It kinda blows this entire view right out of the water.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Well, my subs *havent* stayed the same (as I said before). They have risen over the years, and not once have I complained. The only difference now is that I am expected to pay a premium sub AND buy additonal content.
You see, the problem I always run into when discussing MT with folks is that the vast majority say 'I support MT, but I never use it...', but yet corps make millions from it. I really have no idea where that extra revenue comes from tbh
Lath, out of interest, what game did you cut your MMORPG teeth on? Was in Runescape or some similar 'F2P'?I only ask to see if that might have a impact on tolerance for MT. Have you ever used cash shops?
I actually started with FFXI and I have never played a F2p game except GW. I have never used cash shops. I like the earn my items in-game. Which is why I never bought from goldsellers either.
The reason I'm arguing the point (besides playing devils advocate) the players have already decided that they like the idea of MT or account services. Look at WOW, Everquest, FFXI, GW, Warhammer the list goes on. If you offer extra people will buy it. Why should they give it to you when they can sell it? And don't say cause we pay a montly sub....try telling that to comcast when you want STARS or SHOWTIME. Its in all the industries and it will be as long as comsumers continue to pay. Aion is just continuing the trend it nothing new.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Ok, see you in a while, when they will add MT !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
WOW, what a truly useless store, bunch of total fluff items that have zero impact on the game. Now if they had some +exp leveling potions we'd be talking. Move along, nothing to see here.
Kyleran, what are you talking about, if they had MT +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then "now we'd be talking". I hope you realize how insane that sounds.......
Clear your head for a second, isnt it obvious that if your excited about buying +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then you have clearly been played yourself?
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Ok, see you in a while, when they will add MT !
This kind of fatalism is why this corporate pushed trend continues though...
What has happened with Cryptic recently (the U-Turn on them making their new content MT) proves that consumer power works.
All we have to do for this to stop is say no.
Arguing to support MT simply because it's 'the trend' as a gamer is pretty self destructive.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
Thanks for answering about what games you played before etc btw. Can I ask, why havent you played 'F2P' games in the past? Why have you avoided them? Every so called 'F2P' game allows technically you to play them indefinitly without spending anything, or so many F2Pers keep telling me.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
It's important to remember that If people are going to say "look at the quarterly reports as they are not losing money" then one has to also look at past quarterly reports when they WERE losing money.
Not to defend NC which is a corporation but it's important to look at the whole picture. What about the several quarters where they were steadily losing money?
Also, they are a public company.
That means they HAVE to make money for their investors. Just like everyone here expects their investmetns to make money. Are we saying that all of you are ok with your retirement acounts making a "smidgeon" of money because you don't want to be greedy?
So sure, they shouldn't have (in my opinion) charaged for those holiday items which seemed in lieu of an actual holiday event. Someone wasn't thinking there.
However, game companies, especially those that make mmo's are dealign with a fairly risky commodity. One wrong move and kablooey. I'm starting to think they should raise monthly fees to twenty or twenty five dollars and just forgo the rmt.
In any case that's the problem with public companies, they have to be good investments for investors and have to pay employees and of course they need money for R&D, current prodcuts, etc.
In my last company (the one that laid me off) they are actually freezing raises for the 2nd year in a row.
I think it's safe to say that if most of you worked for a company and they froze raises you would probaby be up in arms.
Listen, in the end, people vote with their wallet, no matter what others think. So if no one buys those silly holiday things then that might make them change their tack with regards to holiday evetns but also what they offer for extra cash.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
It's important to remember that If people are going to say "look at the quarterly reports as they are not losing money" then one has to also look at past quarterly reports when they WERE losing money.
Not to defend NC which is a corporation but it's important to look at the whole picture. What about the several quarters where they were steadily losing money?
Also, they are a public company.
That means they HAVE to make money for their investors. Just like everyone here expects their investmetns to make money. Are we saying that all of you are ok with your retirement acounts making a "smidgeon" of money because you don't want to be greedy?
So sure, they shouldn't have (in my opinion) charaged for those holiday items which seemed in lieu of an actual holiday event. Someone wasn't thinking there.
However, game companies, especially those that make mmo's are dealign with a fairly risky commodity. One wrong move and kablooey. I'm starting to think they should raise monthly fees to twenty or twenty five dollars and just forgo the rmt.
In any case that's the problem with public companies, they have to be good investments for investors and have to pay employees and of course they need money for R&D, current prodcuts, etc.
In my last company (the one that laid me off) they are actually freezing raises for the 2nd year in a row.
I think it's safe to say that if most of you worked for a company and they froze raises you would probaby be up in arms.
Listen, in the end, people vote with their wallet, no matter what others think. So if no one buys those silly holiday things then that might make them change their tack with regards to holiday evetns but also what they offer for extra cash.
I am sorry, I dont see how going back into past quarters has anything to do with the discussion with MT in Aion or the state of the company now? Is your point that they were once not making money, now they are making a *lot*? Ok, if so, I guess we agree.
Your post seems to boil down to 'investors need to be paid'? Well, I am sure, looking at that report, they were. This simply wasnt a survival measure to ensure the small people of the corporation got paid or anything close... I wish we would stop suggesting that NCS was somehow in trouble when all the evidence says the contrary. Saying 'if your company froze your raise you would be upset...' and the like is very emotive and whatnot, but it isnt relevant to us talking about Aion or NCS in the now.
I agree that IF a company needed to generate extra revenue I would prefer to see them do it openly, with strong communication, with a clear pricing plan, with a small raise in the price of the sub. Saying this though, looking at NCS's report, I cannot see how anyone could support the need for such a thing. Introducting MT into a game that was sold to me as a sub only one 4-5 after launch isnt going to win them my love or trust.
On a final note, I find it hard to believe that you are asking me feel sorry enough for the shareholder and the possibility that his return *maybe* isnt big enough that I should support MT and pay more for the same product out of my pocket, even if that product (Aion) is in huge profit already (as has been demonstrated).
I'm sorry, but no.
On a final final note, I agree that people vote with their wallets, but they don't always know what they are buying, or what their dollar means to the wider picture, and this is why public debates like this are great. They have a decent chance of turning one or two people on to something they may not have considered in the past if they were only a casual buyer (and not already a staunch MT lover).
I am sorry, I dont see how going back into past quarters has anything to do with the discussion with MT in Aion or the state of the company now? Is your point that they were once not making money, now they are making a *lot*? Ok, if so, I guess we agree. Your post seems to boil down to 'investors need to be paid'? Well, I am sure, looking at that report, they were. This simply wasnt a survival measure to ensure the small people of the corporation got paid or anything close... I wish we would stop suggesting that NCS was somehow in trouble when all the evidence says the contrary. Saying 'if your company froze your raise you would be upset...' and the like is very emotive and whatnot, but it isnt relevant to us talking about Aion or NCS in the now. I agree that IF a company needed to generate extra revenue I would prefer to see them do it openly, with strong communication, with a clear pricing plan, with a small raise in the price of the sub. Saying this though, looking at NCS's report, I cannot see how anyone could support the need for such a thing. Introducting MT into a game that was sold to me as a sub only one 4-5 after launch isnt going to win them my love or trust. On a final note, I find it hard to believe that you are asking me feel sorry enough for the shareholder and the possibility that his return *maybe* isnt big enough that I should support MT and pay more for the same product out of my pocket, even if that product (Aion) is in huge profit already (as has been demonstrated). I'm sorry, but no. On a final final note, I agree that people vote with their wallets, but they don't always know what they are buying, or what their dollar means to the wider picture, and this is why public debates like this are great. They have a decent chance of turning one or two people on to something they may not have considered in the past if they were only a casual buyer (and not already a staunch MT lover).
What I am saying is that you can't just say "well, they made a lot of money this quarter so now they can relax.
Companies just don't work that way. And quite frankly, I would find it hard to believe that you would ask of the companies in your retirement accounts to forget the losses of the past and as long as you made money in the current quarter you don't have to be aggressive in making money in any other quarter.
As I've said, they are a big company and won't die on the removal of rmt items. However, no company is going to rest on its laurels and forget about past losses and perhaps even past debt.
So "ok" they made quite a bit of money this quarter. How is their debt? What did they have to do in order to remain a viable company in past years? did they have to cut down on staff? Were they not able to hire needed people because it didn't fit in the revised budgets? What about the next few quarters? What does their pipeline look like as far as releases?
I am not saying you have to like anything. I'm a firm beiever that we are all different and unless you are breaking laws or hurting others then that's fine with me.
But for some reason "gamers" seem to think that large companies should be all warm and fuzzy and they just don't run that way. And people wanting it so is not going to make it so. This is not to say they should be "evil". But there is a difference between offering some stupid items in a cash shop and charging you behind your back for things you didn't know you were being charged for. Now that would be evil.
If I invest in a company then I want a return and I want a large return and I want to continue getting a large return. It's up to that company to make that happen. If they make a mistake and lose customers then "yes' i'm not going to be happy.
Though truth be told I don't invest in individual companies and invest through mutual funds. but if a company in a particular fund does things that I find are beyond the pale then I wont' continue investing in that fund.
As far as whether or not their investors have been paid, I couldn't say I don't have investments in NC Soft or any game companies. Do you? if their investors are unhappy with their profits then they will say so.
If these rmt measures cause NC to lose business then the investors will say so. If it doesn't and it brings in money then the investors are goign to be happy. And I don't know of any investor who is ever going to say "no, it's ok, you've made me enough money".
I will never ask a person to feel sorry for a large coporation. However, looking around, even though I usually don't like large corporations they do supply jobs and goods and services. It's probably safe to say that most of us buy goods and services from large companies that are probably public companies.
Though as point of note, I personally I make it a point to shop locally as much as possible. I wonder if most people try to do that as a conscious choice. Thogh I highly doubt it as a lot of people just buy things online (where its available) and are done with it. Especially if it saves them money.
you see, that's the thing, most people do what is in their best interest. If you can get something far cheaper you might very well just buy it online. Why? Becuase it is in your best interest to do so. But the way I see it is that doing so robs your local economy and also diminishes jobs. But people and companies are going to do things that are in their best interests.
In any case, if individuals do what is in their best interest why is it bad if companies do the same? Of course, provided it is within the scope of the law.
But one great quarterly report does not end a large company's journey to see larger profits. And as long as they aren 't stealing from people (and I mean really stealing, not some sort of "they aren't including it in game therefore they are stealing my money" sort of thing) and as long as people are willing to buy their products then who am I to say what they are doing is wrong?
If people don't like it then don't buy it. They will change if no one buys their goods and they lose subs. Why? They have to as they have to make sure they are doing everything they can to bring in revenue.
That's what companies do!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am sorry, I dont see how going back into past quarters has anything to do with the discussion with MT in Aion or the state of the company now? Is your point that they were once not making money, now they are making a *lot*? Ok, if so, I guess we agree. Your post seems to boil down to 'investors need to be paid'? Well, I am sure, looking at that report, they were. This simply wasnt a survival measure to ensure the small people of the corporation got paid or anything close... I wish we would stop suggesting that NCS was somehow in trouble when all the evidence says the contrary. Saying 'if your company froze your raise you would be upset...' and the like is very emotive and whatnot, but it isnt relevant to us talking about Aion or NCS in the now. I agree that IF a company needed to generate extra revenue I would prefer to see them do it openly, with strong communication, with a clear pricing plan, with a small raise in the price of the sub. Saying this though, looking at NCS's report, I cannot see how anyone could support the need for such a thing. Introducting MT into a game that was sold to me as a sub only one 4-5 after launch isnt going to win them my love or trust. On a final note, I find it hard to believe that you are asking me feel sorry enough for the shareholder and the possibility that his return *maybe* isnt big enough that I should support MT and pay more for the same product out of my pocket, even if that product (Aion) is in huge profit already (as has been demonstrated). I'm sorry, but no. On a final final note, I agree that people vote with their wallets, but they don't always know what they are buying, or what their dollar means to the wider picture, and this is why public debates like this are great. They have a decent chance of turning one or two people on to something they may not have considered in the past if they were only a casual buyer (and not already a staunch MT lover).
What I am saying is that you can't just say "well, they made a lot of money this quarter so now they can relax.
there is a difference between offering some stupid items in a cash shop and charging you behind your back for things you didn't know you were being charged for. Now that would be evil.
If I invest in a company then I want a return and I want a large return and I want to continue getting a large return. It's up to that company to make that happen. If they make a mistake and lose customers then "yes' i'm not going to be happy.
As far as whether or not their investors have been paid, I couldn't say I don't have investments in NC Soft or any game companies. Do you? if their investors are unhappy with their profits then they will say so.
If these rmt measures cause NC to lose business then the investors will say so. If it doesn't and it brings in money then the investors are goign to be happy. And I don't know of any investor who is ever going to say "no, it's ok, you've made me enough money".
I will never ask a person to feel sorry for a large coporation. However, looking around, even though I usually don't like large corporations they do supply jobs and goods and services. It's probably safe to say that most of us buy goods and services from large companies that are probably public companies.
In any case, if individuals do what is in their best interest why is it bad if companies do the same? Of course, provided it is within the scope of the law.
But one great quarterly report does not end a large company's journey to see larger profits.
They have to as they have to make sure they are doing everything they can to bring in revenue.
That's what companies do!
I think most people here arnt against corps on principle, only when they act in a greedy and unreasonable manner.
I think most people wouldnt expect a company to 'relax'. (noone suggested they should)
I think most people understand that a corp needs to see a profit. (as has been agreed repeatedly)
I think most people here get that we vote with our dollars. (this is why I cancelled)
Tbh Sov, lessons for us all on what a corporation is and isnt aside, I am not sure what your actual point is on this in all that...
Boiled down, you seem to be arguing for MT on the basis that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders, no matter what the cost to the player or product? That all business is fine, ethical or not, as long as it is legal?
This is actually the kind of thinking that has left this genre in such a mess eh?
I think most people here arnt against corps on principle, only when they act in a greedy and unreasonable manner. I think most people wouldnt expect a company to 'relax'. (noone suggested they should) I think most people understand that a corp needs to see a profit. (as has been agreed repeatedly) I think most people here get that we vote with our dollars. (this is why I cancelled) My thought is that even though most people "know' this they really don't take it into account. It's like they know this but as soon as a corp does anything (and in this case game company) to bring in greater profits the player will automatically cry: Greedy/unreasonable
Tbh Sov, lessons for us all on what a corporation is and isnt aside, I am not sure what your actual point is on this in all that... Boiled down, you seem to be arguing for MT on the basis that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders, no matter what the cost to the player or product? That all business is fine, ethical or not, as long as it is legal? This is actually the kind of thinking that has left this genre in such a mess eh?
In some ways I'm arguing for a slightly different tack on that.
I AM saying that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders. As far as whether or not this is to the detriment of the game that is where the player will have to decide.
In the case of Aion and it's recent rmt offerings I don't feel any of the offerings are to the detriment of the game. Conversely I feel that with the recent offerings of Allod's items, more so the items that take away the death penalty, that those ARE to the detriment of the game/player. regardless that you can get them in game my thought is that anything you have to pay extra (and it seems you will have to pay extra over all) in order to mitigate a penalty in the game is bad.
As far as the "All busines is fine, ethical or not" I'm saying that all business is fine as long as it's ethical. But that is where the issue is. What do we consider ethical? I don't consider any of Aion's offerings unethical. They are useful (such as name change or gender change) at best and silly (chocolates, dyes) at worst.
I think that if anything these are the types of rmt items that games should use (if they are so inclined) and nothign else. Well, with the exception of cosmetic items.
Of course part of the issue is the whole "in lieu of an event here are some things that you can buy". For me the issue is not that they allowed holiday themed items for sale but that they really didn't have an event for those who want this type of thing. I got some sort of holiday item to use and I just destroyed it. But that really isn't much of an event.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well written, and I agree with you. Though I'm starting to switch from my pc back to my XBox after this month of subscription.
You should also add :
- Lack of competent and well trained GM's and support staff
- Lack of support a la WoW (less then 30 minutes to fix and review simple issues? Less then a day or 2 to restore items in fell? Rightful bans instead of random bans? Gimme please!)
Hands down, Blizzard has the best support I've ever experienced in any mmo so far, and in terms of service they top my charts. But WoW as a game doesn't pull it for me.
Aion has potential, but their support system and terribad gm's/support just makes me cringe. NCSoft fails terribly in the support department, and that's one of the main reasons why they're bleeding out in subs.
Thank you OP. I will never sub to this game based on your post. What does my 15$ a month pay for? If not for holiday goodies and content update. From the days of UO to the days of WoW... and none inbetween, have ever charged for simple content that should just be included. Holiday events are a fun part of the game, a game you already pay for.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
Thanks for answering about what games you played before etc btw. Can I ask, why havent you played 'F2P' games in the past? Why have you avoided them? Every so called 'F2P' game allows technically you to play them indefinitly without spending anything, or so many F2Pers keep telling me.
Well I have not played any F2P play for 2 reasons. They don't usually interest me and I don;t like the idea of paying to be better than someone else. I like your signature, especially the last bit about achieving. Thats the only reason to play for me.
Btw I want to make it clear that I don't support the MT/paid services (because I don't use them) but i doesn't make me want to quit the game. I did look at the numbers but It doesn't tell you how funds are distributed. So there is no way of knowing if and where they are lacking in revenue. I don't think NCsoft is struggling but its obvious they had plans to do this from the start.
I am not sure why people are upset, concerned, or confused.
Back when NCSoft was developing AION, they showed that they were looking at different business models. The game was designed from the ground up to support microtransactions with little or no changes.
They started this game in China, and made microtransactions part of the business model as soon as it was commercialized.
There were many people (such as myself) who pointed all of this out, and stated that this was to be how it would work in the west as well... only to get scoffed. Players decryied that this would never happen in the EU/US.
It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck... OMG.... it is a duck!!!! Who would have guessed?
P.S. I would have thought that someone would notice that they shut down Tabula Rasa... not because it wasnt making money (it was making a tidy profit), but rather because it wasnt making ENOUGH money, and they wanted to pull resources off, to put them on more profitable projects... aka AION.
I think most people here arnt against corps on principle, only when they act in a greedy and unreasonable manner. I think most people wouldnt expect a company to 'relax'. (noone suggested they should) I think most people understand that a corp needs to see a profit. (as has been agreed repeatedly) I think most people here get that we vote with our dollars. (this is why I cancelled) My thought is that even though most people "know' this they really don't take it into account. It's like they know this but as soon as a corp does anything (and in this case game company) to bring in greater profits the player will automatically cry: Greedy/unreasonable Like I say, and I can only repeat, I am not anti-corporation in general. Only when they act unfairly or unreasonably in my eyes. There is no 'automatic' reaction from me to it at all.
Tbh Sov, lessons for us all on what a corporation is and isnt aside, I am not sure what your actual point is on this in all that... Boiled down, you seem to be arguing for MT on the basis that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders, no matter what the cost to the player or product? That all business is fine, ethical or not, as long as it is legal? This is actually the kind of thinking that has left this genre in such a mess eh?
In some ways I'm arguing for a slightly different tack on that.
I AM saying that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders. As far as whether or not this is to the detriment of the game that is where the player will have to decide.
Look, I guess we are never gonna agree on this... You see it from the perspective of the shareholder only, and I see it from the view of the customer, and they rarely want the same things.
I do believe in a iddle ground though. I do believe that subs offer the shareholder a profit while being fair and honest to the customer.
In the case of Aion and it's recent rmt offerings I don't feel any of the offerings are to the detriment of the game.
How can the removal of seasonal events, to be replaced by purchased seasonal packs of mostly recycled content for £5.99 NOT be detrimental to the game?
As far as the "All busines is fine, ethical or not" I'm saying that all business is fine as long as it's ethical.
No, you actually said it is fine as long as it is in 'the scope of the law.
The law isnt ethics, and ethics isnt law. It isnt the same thing.
But that is where the issue is. What do we consider ethical? I don't consider any of Aion's offerings unethical. They are useful (such as name change or gender change) at best and silly (chocolates, dyes) at worst.
Well, look...
I bought a game, and paid the sub for 4 months under the understanding (as it was at launch) that it was a non MT game. That was how it was presented to me. I renewed my sub because, amongst other things, the events were getting better and it looked like NCS was starting to actually care.
They then strip those events out and introduced MT to replace them, without notification.
As a paid subber, they reduced the value of my sub without communication or explanation. They changed the service offered midway through my sub.
To me, and a lot of others from the responses I personally saw on the offical boards and comments under the announcement, thats unethical trading.
Once *again*, noone is arguing against paid services (I seem to have to say this every post). I also have stated that this issue has nothing to do with whether MT is 'fluff' or not.
I am not sure why people are upset, concerned, or confused. Back when NCSoft was developing AION, they showed that they were looking at different business models. The game was designed from the ground up to support microtransactions with little or no changes. They started this game in China, and made microtransactions part of the business model as soon as it was commercialized. There were many people (such as myself) who pointed all of this out, and stated that this was to be how it would work in the west as well... only to get scoffed. Players decryied that this would never happen in the EU/US. It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck... OMG.... it is a duck!!!! Who would have guessed?
P.S. I would have thought that someone would notice that they shut down Tabula Rasa... not because it wasnt making money (it was making a tidy profit), but rather because it wasnt making ENOUGH money, and they wanted to pull resources off, to put them on more profitable projects... aka AION.
Well, i never had that debate with you, or scoffed at you... I didnt have anything to do with NCS before this (except GW briefly, and CoH at launch), and I didnt follow to development of the game. I only started it tbh because my GF liked the look of it.
As a MT hater I just trusted that a corporation would stick with the rev model it had at launch (unless it struggled), or that any change would be communicated in enough time to catch me before I resubbed.
WOW, what a truly useless store, bunch of total fluff items that have zero impact on the game. Now if they had some +exp leveling potions we'd be talking. Move along, nothing to see here.
Kyleran, what are you talking about, if they had MT +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then "now we'd be talking". I hope you realize how insane that sounds.......
Clear your head for a second, isnt it obvious that if your excited about buying +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then you have clearly been played yourself?
Well, two things. First, I was mocking the OP a bit since he was willing to quit the game because fluff items were introduced in the store.
Second, my reply was a bit tongue in cheek because actually, the grind in this game is pretty harsh, and at my current solo leveling speed of about 10-12 hours per level, there's times when yes, I'd pay extra for some exp leveling potions. (provided the cost wasn't excessive) Since I can't play that often, its literally taking me about 2 weeks per level. At this rate I might make 50 say around... Christmas.
Why would I do this? Reason is two fold, first, I've got more disposable income than free time, and 2nd, in a PVP game like Aion being a higher level than your opponent is the single most important factor in winning a fight (when solo).
So the solution seems simple, get to max level as quickly as possible. (of course then there's the gear factor, but that's something I'm willing to work on)
But in the end, I'm willing to play the game as designed but I'm not going to gnash my teeth if they offer something more substantial in the cash store.
Now offering golden fiddles, that's a different story.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well I have not played any F2P play for 2 reasons. They don't usually interest me and I don;t like the idea of paying to be better than someone else. I like your signature, especially the last bit about achieving. Thats the only reason to play for me. Btw I want to make it clear that I don't support the MT/paid services (because I don't use them) but i doesn't make me want to quit the game. I did look at the numbers but It doesn't tell you how funds are distributed. So there is no way of knowing if and where they are lacking in revenue. I don't think NCsoft is struggling but its obvious they had plans to do this from the start.
Yeah, i agree, I also think now they planned to do this from the start, which makes it doubly offensive to me tbh...
I would never have purchased the game or paid for a sub if I had thought they would go down the MT route.
Well I have not played any F2P play for 2 reasons. They don't usually interest me and I don;t like the idea of paying to be better than someone else. I like your signature, especially the last bit about achieving. Thats the only reason to play for me. Btw I want to make it clear that I don't support the MT/paid services (because I don't use them) but i doesn't make me want to quit the game. I did look at the numbers but It doesn't tell you how funds are distributed. So there is no way of knowing if and where they are lacking in revenue. I don't think NCsoft is struggling but its obvious they had plans to do this from the start.
Yeah, i agree, I also think now they planned to do this from the start, which makes it doubly offensive to me tbh...
I would never have purchased the game or paid for a sub if I had thought they would go down the MT route.
I seen you post on the FFXIV page you planning on playing that>?
Comments
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
yeah, nice to have a chat with someone who dosent see me as their mortal enemy just because we have different views lol.
I get what your saying about the subs being kept down, but I wonder how true that is... I mean, i am definitly paying more for subs these days and since '99 I have seen a slow rise in monthly pricing. If that isnt enough, which I wouldnt be offended if they said it wasnt, they could easily slap another £1 on that (which in a average game of 250,000 users would prolly net them £3,000,000 or so more a year extra) which really should be enough to absorb inflation and whatever. No problems and noone offended (well, noone sensible).
With MT in a game like Aion they get to charge a premium sub AND gain the revenue far in excess of an extra £1 a month from each user...
I mean, £5.99 for a seasonal event pack, half of which is recycled content? Thats not even sane pricing.
I think it's very obvious that this is just the water tester to try out market tolerance of the model in this game. If it is supported and accepted then how long before we see more and more packs being introduced into the NCS store? How long before in game rewards that become 'essential' to play? £20 to gain the L40 vet award wings for your character? Lodas amulets for £2 each? How about to complete your daevian armour? Want some Abyss points? Kinah?
The more that is accepted, the more they will push.
I honestly have no trust or faith in NCS after how they have handled Aion up to now, and I have no belief that they will do the 'right thing' by the game or their customers, only by their accountants and shareholders.
Despite the spin and pleading broke many devs use in order to justify and rationalise MT in their games, I think it is obvious that NCS are making amazing profits off just the sub alone for Aion. Noone would mind this I am sure, but with their push for more, more, MORE, while giving less and less, they are just stepping over the line from fairly won profit into blatant exploitative greed.
Thats how I see it anyhow ;P
I don't really think that Ncsoft west is trying to get money becasue they are broke but I think we all know that subs is never a sure thing (Mythic). You need to find a way to keep money coming in. Yes subs have went up over the years and many players didn't like it.. Companies had to find a way to survive when inflation goes up. Paid services, collectible items and pre-orders are the answers. Will this lead to items for sale that are essenstial to play? I strongly doubt it. Because believe it or not companies want to keep their players happy (within reason). I have noticed a trend in the gaming industry lately where the companies offer items, downloads and even head-start guides for people to pre-order. They are taking steps to insure their survival with minimal impact on the players while at the same time making the player think he got something out of the deal.
Time will tell where this is going. As I see it now, Ncsoft is taking steps to insure that they can continue their game, develop content and still make a profit. I mean they still have to make a profit or there would be no game. Its terrible but true.
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/269073/NCsoft-Q4-2009-financial-report-released-today-.html
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable. You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
I don't think thats entirely fair Lath.. I havent missed your point, and I have answered it clearly several times
As for paid services... well, I have said repeatedly that paid services are fine. It's in game MT that is the problem... the sale of in game rewards. It's even in my sig
The fee obviously IS enough to support a game, I have demonstrated that in pointing to the thriving ('thriving' as in the definition of getting paid, delivering free expansions, and expanding their live team) existence of sub only games. Hell, even Funcom are live developing/ fixing AoC, a game struggling to regain it's feet, on a sub only.
You say "realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies", but I say that statement is just false. It obviously is, as shown by the companies that exist on just that.
Your entire point of view seems to be based on the corporate created fallacy that somehow the sub model is suddenly broken, and again i say thats just wrong. It clearly isnt, it clearly just dosent deliver the obscene profit margains that MT does (at the cost of the customer and the game itself).
As for how would I generate more revenue in a MMORPG *IF* I needed to? Simple, and I have kinda said it already, I would raise the sub cost, as devs have been doing up to now successfully for years. You say 'people don't like it', but you know what? It was under the sub model being raised like this over the years that the MMORPG user base in the West reached WoW like numbers, so people can't have hated it all that much right?
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/269073/NCsoft-Q4-2009-financial-report-released-today-.html
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable.
We have talked about this already though...
In Aion users pay a sub to access the content (use the service). Not only has that service been cut (the removal of 'free' seasonal events) and the value offered reduced, but they have introduced the replacement of it as a paid pack (half of which is existing recycled content) without communication, explanation, or apology.
Unbelievable, really, and this is why I can't trust this corporation going forward. This is a big part as to why I do not have your faith in their good intentions with regards to MT and their cash shop.
Imo, anyone who ignores this warning shot (because this IS a water tester to try out market tolerance) and everyone who says nothing is asking for more and more. Those people will see you buying kinah by the end of the year, while all the while NCS will be spinning it to say it is responding to 'customer demand' to 'improve' it's cash store, while claiming it is acting to 'protect them from evil 3rd party gold sellers'.
This isnt an issue about the MT content being essential to play or not, it's about a dishonest revenue model that no customer should tolerate.
If, looking at that financial report I linked, you honestly think NCS *needed* to do this to support an 'ailing sub model' then I honestly do not think anything I can say will ever reach you, and certainly not in this conversation. Thats not to say I don't think you seem an intelligent decent guy, but we arnt ever gonna come to an agreement here
Profit is fine, but profiteering should imo never be supported, and lets not even touch on the uneven split of finite and limited dev resources between the 'free' game and the MT shop and how that effects ALL players (those that MT or otherwise).
Also, all we have talked about as well so far is the money side of things so far.... We havent even touched on how turning games into virtual market spaces destroys what fundamentally makes them a game even.
You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
Well, a rev model that hides the true cost of play from the user could actually be defined as 'charging you behind your back' I think.
And 'optional'.... well, thats a much used word by MT defenders, and it ignores many many issues that I won't cover right here (though I will talk about the psychology of retail and the consumer if you like). The bottom line is though that MT trades mainly off the gullible, young, and 'addicted', which also makes it pretty exploitative.
The fact is though that the Sub+MT still blocks off content off from users who are already paying premium sub who don't wish to take them up on their 'option' and that dosent sit well with a lot of folks. It's a push too far for many. I mean, look at the back pedalling that Cryptic have had to do recently for proof of that right?
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
You are actually pleading poverty for NCS? That the MT model was introduced to make them financially viable? Really? Have you even looked at that financial report for last year?
Have you looked at how *little* the running costs have actually increased, and how much the PROFIT has? If you havent, you should. It kinda blows this entire view right out of the water.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Well, my subs *havent* stayed the same (as I said before). They have risen over the years, and not once have I complained. The only difference now is that I am expected to pay a premium sub AND buy additonal content.
You see, the problem I always run into when discussing MT with folks is that the vast majority say 'I support MT, but I never use it...', but yet corps make millions from it. I really have no idea where that extra revenue comes from tbh
Lath, out of interest, what game did you cut your MMORPG teeth on? Was in Runescape or some similar 'F2P'?I only ask to see if that might have a impact on tolerance for MT. Have you ever used cash shops?
The cash shop was the final straw for me, and why I eventually left Aion. The other straw was the freaking GRIND to do what I wanted to do - PvP. You can't PvP your way up to maximum level like you can in Warhammer, so it basically means every alt you make goes through the same boring PvE themepark quests to level 25 before you can even scratch the surface of PvP.
Yeah, not my idea of a good time. The cash shop was the final straw that made me say, buh-bye, NCSoft - if my $14.95 a month wasn't enough for you that you want to nickel and dime me to death as well, I'll head on over to a game that doesn't.
But surely the basic point is that Aion, on a premium sub, is already hugely profitable globally. I mean, look at their recent financial report...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/269073/NCsoft-Q4-2009-financial-report-released-today-.html
This isnt a company struggling to survive on a subscription model in the west... their profit on this game alone is mind blowing. I don't see the sudden need now to introduce MT to somehow rescue them and allow them to keep developing.
This isnt 'do or die', as you seem to suggest at the end of your post- the MT revenue is EXTRA, and whats more it's extra in a game thats not 'complete' (in the MMORPG sense) and that annoys a lot of people.
Even if I supported the MT model, I would still say that NCS's timing (putting it in before fixing/ filling out the core product to what many consider a AAA standard) is terrible and has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths. It shows priorities and their true 'vision' of the game- ie a cash cow only existing to be fed on the cheapest hay and be milked, and milked, and milked, while all the time telling it how great it's life will be in the future...
Look, back on track, It honestly isnt a case of introduce MT or die... MT or no game. Lets not keep suggesting that is the only truth. MT isnt the only way forward, it's just the way forward that revenue can be 'maximised' for minimum investment on their part. In short, how to give us less and charge us more, while hiding the fact thats what they are doing.
Charging £5.99 for a valentine event pack (of mostly recycled content) is the perfect example of this.
This may be great for them, and their corporate bonuses as you say, but it's rubbish for the customer, and it honestly confuses me why any customer argues for it and supports it. Not saying you havent the right to think what you want, but I don't get it and never will.
I have highlighted 'think' in red in your quote because thats exactly what it is all about... A model that charges more for less, while allowing the customer to think they got something out of it. In truth though they didnt ofc. MT is all smoke and mirrors- false value and hidden cost.
All I'm going to say is that none of the items offered are needed for the game to be playable.
We have talked about this already though...
In Aion users pay a sub to access the content (use the service). Not only has that service been cut (the removal of 'free' seasonal events) and the value offered reduced, but they have introduced the replacement of it as a paid pack (half of which is existing recycled content) without communication, explanation, or apology.
Unbelievable, really, and this is why I can't trust this corporation going forward. This is a big part as to why I do not have your faith in their good intentions with regards to MT and their cash shop.
Imo, anyone who ignores this warning shot (because this IS a water tester to try out market tolerance) and everyone who says nothing is asking for more and more. Those people will see you buying kinah by the end of the year, while all the while NCS will be spinning it to say it is responding to 'customer demand' to 'improve' it's cash store, while claiming it is acting to 'protect them from evil 3rd party gold sellers'.
This isnt an issue about the MT content being essential to play or not, it's about a dishonest revenue model that no customer should tolerate.
If, looking at that financial report I linked, you honestly think NCS *needed* to do this to support an 'ailing sub model' then I honestly do not think anything I can say will ever reach you, and certainly not in this conversation. Thats not to say I don't think you seem an intelligent decent guy, but we arnt ever gonna come to an agreement here
Profit is fine, but profiteering should imo never be supported, and lets not even touch on the uneven split of finite and limited dev resources between the 'free' game and the MT shop and how that effects ALL players (those that MT or otherwise).
Also, all we have talked about as well so far is the money side of things so far.... We havent even touched on how turning games into virtual market spaces destroys what fundamentally makes them a game even.
You make it sound like they are charging you behind your back or charging people more when that is not the case. That's why its optional that's the key word.
Well, a rev model that hides the true cost of play from the user could actually be defined as 'charging you behind your back' I think.
And 'optional'.... well, thats a much used word by MT defenders, and it ignores many many issues that I won't cover right here (though I will talk about the psychology of retail and the consumer if you like). The bottom line is though that MT trades mainly off the gullible, young, and 'addicted', which also makes it pretty exploitative.
The fact is though that the Sub+MT still blocks off content off from users who are already paying premium sub who don't wish to take them up on their 'option' and that dosent sit well with a lot of folks. It's a push too far for many. I mean, look at the back pedalling that Cryptic have had to do recently for proof of that right?
As far as the do or die statement, honestly how much do you think it cost to run a company as big as Ncsoft. You make it sound like they should run on pennies to keep the customer happy. This is a company that employee's thousands of people and without raising subs how you suppose they continue buisness? IT may not be do or die for the company but I'm sure they could not employ as many people as thy do if they didn't have a budget to fit the company.
You are actually pleading poverty for NCS? That the MT model was introduced to make them financially viable? Really? Have you even looked at that financial report for last year?
Have you looked at how *little* the running costs have actually increased, and how much the PROFIT has? If you havent, you should. It kinda blows this entire view right out of the water.
Also I fail to see the more for less model. My sub fee has stayed the same and they offered me in-game items which I can pay extra for or decline. Thats what I see. I was never tricked or charged extra for anything.
Well, my subs *havent* stayed the same (as I said before). They have risen over the years, and not once have I complained. The only difference now is that I am expected to pay a premium sub AND buy additonal content.
You see, the problem I always run into when discussing MT with folks is that the vast majority say 'I support MT, but I never use it...', but yet corps make millions from it. I really have no idea where that extra revenue comes from tbh
Lath, out of interest, what game did you cut your MMORPG teeth on? Was in Runescape or some similar 'F2P'?I only ask to see if that might have a impact on tolerance for MT. Have you ever used cash shops?
I actually started with FFXI and I have never played a F2p game except GW. I have never used cash shops. I like the earn my items in-game. Which is why I never bought from goldsellers either.
The reason I'm arguing the point (besides playing devils advocate) the players have already decided that they like the idea of MT or account services. Look at WOW, Everquest, FFXI, GW, Warhammer the list goes on. If you offer extra people will buy it. Why should they give it to you when they can sell it? And don't say cause we pay a montly sub....try telling that to comcast when you want STARS or SHOWTIME. Its in all the industries and it will be as long as comsumers continue to pay. Aion is just continuing the trend it nothing new.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Ok, see you in a while, when they will add MT !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Kyleran, what are you talking about, if they had MT +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then "now we'd be talking". I hope you realize how insane that sounds.......
Clear your head for a second, isnt it obvious that if your excited about buying +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then you have clearly been played yourself?
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
Yup, check out www.fallenearth.com and look at ALL the extra things you can buy from their cash sho...
Oh, wait, they don't have a cash shop.
Which is why I play that game; and why they get my dollars.
Ok, see you in a while, when they will add MT !
This kind of fatalism is why this corporate pushed trend continues though...
What has happened with Cryptic recently (the U-Turn on them making their new content MT) proves that consumer power works.
All we have to do for this to stop is say no.
Arguing to support MT simply because it's 'the trend' as a gamer is pretty self destructive.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
Thanks for answering about what games you played before etc btw. Can I ask, why havent you played 'F2P' games in the past? Why have you avoided them? Every so called 'F2P' game allows technically you to play them indefinitly without spending anything, or so many F2Pers keep telling me.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
It's important to remember that If people are going to say "look at the quarterly reports as they are not losing money" then one has to also look at past quarterly reports when they WERE losing money.
Not to defend NC which is a corporation but it's important to look at the whole picture. What about the several quarters where they were steadily losing money?
Also, they are a public company.
That means they HAVE to make money for their investors. Just like everyone here expects their investmetns to make money. Are we saying that all of you are ok with your retirement acounts making a "smidgeon" of money because you don't want to be greedy?
So sure, they shouldn't have (in my opinion) charaged for those holiday items which seemed in lieu of an actual holiday event. Someone wasn't thinking there.
However, game companies, especially those that make mmo's are dealign with a fairly risky commodity. One wrong move and kablooey. I'm starting to think they should raise monthly fees to twenty or twenty five dollars and just forgo the rmt.
In any case that's the problem with public companies, they have to be good investments for investors and have to pay employees and of course they need money for R&D, current prodcuts, etc.
In my last company (the one that laid me off) they are actually freezing raises for the 2nd year in a row.
I think it's safe to say that if most of you worked for a company and they froze raises you would probaby be up in arms.
Listen, in the end, people vote with their wallet, no matter what others think. So if no one buys those silly holiday things then that might make them change their tack with regards to holiday evetns but also what they offer for extra cash.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
It's important to remember that If people are going to say "look at the quarterly reports as they are not losing money" then one has to also look at past quarterly reports when they WERE losing money.
Not to defend NC which is a corporation but it's important to look at the whole picture. What about the several quarters where they were steadily losing money?
Also, they are a public company.
That means they HAVE to make money for their investors. Just like everyone here expects their investmetns to make money. Are we saying that all of you are ok with your retirement acounts making a "smidgeon" of money because you don't want to be greedy?
So sure, they shouldn't have (in my opinion) charaged for those holiday items which seemed in lieu of an actual holiday event. Someone wasn't thinking there.
However, game companies, especially those that make mmo's are dealign with a fairly risky commodity. One wrong move and kablooey. I'm starting to think they should raise monthly fees to twenty or twenty five dollars and just forgo the rmt.
In any case that's the problem with public companies, they have to be good investments for investors and have to pay employees and of course they need money for R&D, current prodcuts, etc.
In my last company (the one that laid me off) they are actually freezing raises for the 2nd year in a row.
I think it's safe to say that if most of you worked for a company and they froze raises you would probaby be up in arms.
Listen, in the end, people vote with their wallet, no matter what others think. So if no one buys those silly holiday things then that might make them change their tack with regards to holiday evetns but also what they offer for extra cash.
I am sorry, I dont see how going back into past quarters has anything to do with the discussion with MT in Aion or the state of the company now? Is your point that they were once not making money, now they are making a *lot*? Ok, if so, I guess we agree.
Your post seems to boil down to 'investors need to be paid'? Well, I am sure, looking at that report, they were. This simply wasnt a survival measure to ensure the small people of the corporation got paid or anything close... I wish we would stop suggesting that NCS was somehow in trouble when all the evidence says the contrary. Saying 'if your company froze your raise you would be upset...' and the like is very emotive and whatnot, but it isnt relevant to us talking about Aion or NCS in the now.
I agree that IF a company needed to generate extra revenue I would prefer to see them do it openly, with strong communication, with a clear pricing plan, with a small raise in the price of the sub. Saying this though, looking at NCS's report, I cannot see how anyone could support the need for such a thing. Introducting MT into a game that was sold to me as a sub only one 4-5 after launch isnt going to win them my love or trust.
On a final note, I find it hard to believe that you are asking me feel sorry enough for the shareholder and the possibility that his return *maybe* isnt big enough that I should support MT and pay more for the same product out of my pocket, even if that product (Aion) is in huge profit already (as has been demonstrated).
I'm sorry, but no.
On a final final note, I agree that people vote with their wallets, but they don't always know what they are buying, or what their dollar means to the wider picture, and this is why public debates like this are great. They have a decent chance of turning one or two people on to something they may not have considered in the past if they were only a casual buyer (and not already a staunch MT lover).
What I am saying is that you can't just say "well, they made a lot of money this quarter so now they can relax.
Companies just don't work that way. And quite frankly, I would find it hard to believe that you would ask of the companies in your retirement accounts to forget the losses of the past and as long as you made money in the current quarter you don't have to be aggressive in making money in any other quarter.
As I've said, they are a big company and won't die on the removal of rmt items. However, no company is going to rest on its laurels and forget about past losses and perhaps even past debt.
So "ok" they made quite a bit of money this quarter. How is their debt? What did they have to do in order to remain a viable company in past years? did they have to cut down on staff? Were they not able to hire needed people because it didn't fit in the revised budgets? What about the next few quarters? What does their pipeline look like as far as releases?
I am not saying you have to like anything. I'm a firm beiever that we are all different and unless you are breaking laws or hurting others then that's fine with me.
But for some reason "gamers" seem to think that large companies should be all warm and fuzzy and they just don't run that way. And people wanting it so is not going to make it so. This is not to say they should be "evil". But there is a difference between offering some stupid items in a cash shop and charging you behind your back for things you didn't know you were being charged for. Now that would be evil.
If I invest in a company then I want a return and I want a large return and I want to continue getting a large return. It's up to that company to make that happen. If they make a mistake and lose customers then "yes' i'm not going to be happy.
Though truth be told I don't invest in individual companies and invest through mutual funds. but if a company in a particular fund does things that I find are beyond the pale then I wont' continue investing in that fund.
As far as whether or not their investors have been paid, I couldn't say I don't have investments in NC Soft or any game companies. Do you? if their investors are unhappy with their profits then they will say so.
If these rmt measures cause NC to lose business then the investors will say so. If it doesn't and it brings in money then the investors are goign to be happy. And I don't know of any investor who is ever going to say "no, it's ok, you've made me enough money".
I will never ask a person to feel sorry for a large coporation. However, looking around, even though I usually don't like large corporations they do supply jobs and goods and services. It's probably safe to say that most of us buy goods and services from large companies that are probably public companies.
Though as point of note, I personally I make it a point to shop locally as much as possible. I wonder if most people try to do that as a conscious choice. Thogh I highly doubt it as a lot of people just buy things online (where its available) and are done with it. Especially if it saves them money.
you see, that's the thing, most people do what is in their best interest. If you can get something far cheaper you might very well just buy it online. Why? Becuase it is in your best interest to do so. But the way I see it is that doing so robs your local economy and also diminishes jobs. But people and companies are going to do things that are in their best interests.
In any case, if individuals do what is in their best interest why is it bad if companies do the same? Of course, provided it is within the scope of the law.
But one great quarterly report does not end a large company's journey to see larger profits. And as long as they aren 't stealing from people (and I mean really stealing, not some sort of "they aren't including it in game therefore they are stealing my money" sort of thing) and as long as people are willing to buy their products then who am I to say what they are doing is wrong?
If people don't like it then don't buy it. They will change if no one buys their goods and they lose subs. Why? They have to as they have to make sure they are doing everything they can to bring in revenue.
That's what companies do!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What I am saying is that you can't just say "well, they made a lot of money this quarter so now they can relax.
there is a difference between offering some stupid items in a cash shop and charging you behind your back for things you didn't know you were being charged for. Now that would be evil.
If I invest in a company then I want a return and I want a large return and I want to continue getting a large return. It's up to that company to make that happen. If they make a mistake and lose customers then "yes' i'm not going to be happy.
As far as whether or not their investors have been paid, I couldn't say I don't have investments in NC Soft or any game companies. Do you? if their investors are unhappy with their profits then they will say so.
If these rmt measures cause NC to lose business then the investors will say so. If it doesn't and it brings in money then the investors are goign to be happy. And I don't know of any investor who is ever going to say "no, it's ok, you've made me enough money".
I will never ask a person to feel sorry for a large coporation. However, looking around, even though I usually don't like large corporations they do supply jobs and goods and services. It's probably safe to say that most of us buy goods and services from large companies that are probably public companies.
In any case, if individuals do what is in their best interest why is it bad if companies do the same? Of course, provided it is within the scope of the law.
But one great quarterly report does not end a large company's journey to see larger profits.
They have to as they have to make sure they are doing everything they can to bring in revenue.
That's what companies do!
I think most people here arnt against corps on principle, only when they act in a greedy and unreasonable manner.
I think most people wouldnt expect a company to 'relax'. (noone suggested they should)
I think most people understand that a corp needs to see a profit. (as has been agreed repeatedly)
I think most people here get that we vote with our dollars. (this is why I cancelled)
Tbh Sov, lessons for us all on what a corporation is and isnt aside, I am not sure what your actual point is on this in all that...
Boiled down, you seem to be arguing for MT on the basis that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders, no matter what the cost to the player or product? That all business is fine, ethical or not, as long as it is legal?
This is actually the kind of thinking that has left this genre in such a mess eh?
In some ways I'm arguing for a slightly different tack on that.
I AM saying that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders. As far as whether or not this is to the detriment of the game that is where the player will have to decide.
In the case of Aion and it's recent rmt offerings I don't feel any of the offerings are to the detriment of the game. Conversely I feel that with the recent offerings of Allod's items, more so the items that take away the death penalty, that those ARE to the detriment of the game/player. regardless that you can get them in game my thought is that anything you have to pay extra (and it seems you will have to pay extra over all) in order to mitigate a penalty in the game is bad.
As far as the "All busines is fine, ethical or not" I'm saying that all business is fine as long as it's ethical. But that is where the issue is. What do we consider ethical? I don't consider any of Aion's offerings unethical. They are useful (such as name change or gender change) at best and silly (chocolates, dyes) at worst.
I think that if anything these are the types of rmt items that games should use (if they are so inclined) and nothign else. Well, with the exception of cosmetic items.
Of course part of the issue is the whole "in lieu of an event here are some things that you can buy". For me the issue is not that they allowed holiday themed items for sale but that they really didn't have an event for those who want this type of thing. I got some sort of holiday item to use and I just destroyed it. But that really isn't much of an event.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well written, and I agree with you. Though I'm starting to switch from my pc back to my XBox after this month of subscription.
You should also add :
- Lack of competent and well trained GM's and support staff
- Lack of support a la WoW (less then 30 minutes to fix and review simple issues? Less then a day or 2 to restore items in fell? Rightful bans instead of random bans? Gimme please!)
Hands down, Blizzard has the best support I've ever experienced in any mmo so far, and in terms of service they top my charts. But WoW as a game doesn't pull it for me.
Aion has potential, but their support system and terribad gm's/support just makes me cringe. NCSoft fails terribly in the support department, and that's one of the main reasons why they're bleeding out in subs.
Well I hope you never sub any other MMO as well. They all offer paid services...including WOW. Go to their websites if you don't believe me. For example WOW makes you pay to buy a trading card then you can apply the code in-game for items. I think you guys have missed the original point I was making...sub cost have stayed the same for a long time...if you don't want MT or paid services, how do you purpose to generate revenue without driving up the cost of subs? I understand that you don't like it but realistically the monthly fee is obviously not enough to sustain these companies.
Do you truly believe that?
I know it. Just like I know McDonalds makes its money off the drinks which are way over priced.
Look at all the MMO's websites and check account services...I bet you will find something to buy.
I have said repeatedly that paid services are acceptable though Lath.
I have also asked you to look at that financial report. I linked...
Please, look at the tiny increase in running costs and the massive increase in profits for this corp last year at least, and this was BEFORE they decided to start with the MT. This obviously is not a company struggling to sustain themselves without going down this road... the figures simply do not support your point.
I guess though, as you said before, those raises and bonuses need paying right?
Thanks for answering about what games you played before etc btw. Can I ask, why havent you played 'F2P' games in the past? Why have you avoided them? Every so called 'F2P' game allows technically you to play them indefinitly without spending anything, or so many F2Pers keep telling me.
Well I have not played any F2P play for 2 reasons. They don't usually interest me and I don;t like the idea of paying to be better than someone else. I like your signature, especially the last bit about achieving. Thats the only reason to play for me.
Btw I want to make it clear that I don't support the MT/paid services (because I don't use them) but i doesn't make me want to quit the game. I did look at the numbers but It doesn't tell you how funds are distributed. So there is no way of knowing if and where they are lacking in revenue. I don't think NCsoft is struggling but its obvious they had plans to do this from the start.
I am not sure why people are upset, concerned, or confused.
Back when NCSoft was developing AION, they showed that they were looking at different business models. The game was designed from the ground up to support microtransactions with little or no changes.
They started this game in China, and made microtransactions part of the business model as soon as it was commercialized.
There were many people (such as myself) who pointed all of this out, and stated that this was to be how it would work in the west as well... only to get scoffed. Players decryied that this would never happen in the EU/US.
It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck... OMG.... it is a duck!!!! Who would have guessed?
P.S. I would have thought that someone would notice that they shut down Tabula Rasa... not because it wasnt making money (it was making a tidy profit), but rather because it wasnt making ENOUGH money, and they wanted to pull resources off, to put them on more profitable projects... aka AION.
In some ways I'm arguing for a slightly different tack on that.
I AM saying that a corp needs to maximise profits for their shareholders. As far as whether or not this is to the detriment of the game that is where the player will have to decide.
Look, I guess we are never gonna agree on this... You see it from the perspective of the shareholder only, and I see it from the view of the customer, and they rarely want the same things.
I do believe in a iddle ground though. I do believe that subs offer the shareholder a profit while being fair and honest to the customer.
In the case of Aion and it's recent rmt offerings I don't feel any of the offerings are to the detriment of the game.How can the removal of seasonal events, to be replaced by purchased seasonal packs of mostly recycled content for £5.99 NOT be detrimental to the game?
As far as the "All busines is fine, ethical or not" I'm saying that all business is fine as long as it's ethical.
No, you actually said it is fine as long as it is in 'the scope of the law.
The law isnt ethics, and ethics isnt law. It isnt the same thing.
But that is where the issue is. What do we consider ethical? I don't consider any of Aion's offerings unethical. They are useful (such as name change or gender change) at best and silly (chocolates, dyes) at worst.
Well, look...
I bought a game, and paid the sub for 4 months under the understanding (as it was at launch) that it was a non MT game. That was how it was presented to me. I renewed my sub because, amongst other things, the events were getting better and it looked like NCS was starting to actually care.
They then strip those events out and introduced MT to replace them, without notification.
As a paid subber, they reduced the value of my sub without communication or explanation. They changed the service offered midway through my sub.
To me, and a lot of others from the responses I personally saw on the offical boards and comments under the announcement, thats unethical trading.
Once *again*, noone is arguing against paid services (I seem to have to say this every post). I also have stated that this issue has nothing to do with whether MT is 'fluff' or not.
Can I ask you as well Sov...
Do you use MT shops in game?
If not, why not?
Well, i never had that debate with you, or scoffed at you... I didnt have anything to do with NCS before this (except GW briefly, and CoH at launch), and I didnt follow to development of the game. I only started it tbh because my GF liked the look of it.
As a MT hater I just trusted that a corporation would stick with the rev model it had at launch (unless it struggled), or that any change would be communicated in enough time to catch me before I resubbed.
Obviously neither happened.
Yeah, it is a duck, but I paid for a goose.
Kyleran, what are you talking about, if they had MT +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then "now we'd be talking". I hope you realize how insane that sounds.......
Clear your head for a second, isnt it obvious that if your excited about buying +exp leveling potions in a pay to play game then you have clearly been played yourself?
Well, two things. First, I was mocking the OP a bit since he was willing to quit the game because fluff items were introduced in the store.
Second, my reply was a bit tongue in cheek because actually, the grind in this game is pretty harsh, and at my current solo leveling speed of about 10-12 hours per level, there's times when yes, I'd pay extra for some exp leveling potions. (provided the cost wasn't excessive) Since I can't play that often, its literally taking me about 2 weeks per level. At this rate I might make 50 say around... Christmas.
Why would I do this? Reason is two fold, first, I've got more disposable income than free time, and 2nd, in a PVP game like Aion being a higher level than your opponent is the single most important factor in winning a fight (when solo).
So the solution seems simple, get to max level as quickly as possible. (of course then there's the gear factor, but that's something I'm willing to work on)
But in the end, I'm willing to play the game as designed but I'm not going to gnash my teeth if they offer something more substantial in the cash store.
Now offering golden fiddles, that's a different story.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, i agree, I also think now they planned to do this from the start, which makes it doubly offensive to me tbh...
I would never have purchased the game or paid for a sub if I had thought they would go down the MT route.
Yeah, i agree, I also think now they planned to do this from the start, which makes it doubly offensive to me tbh...
I would never have purchased the game or paid for a sub if I had thought they would go down the MT route.
I seen you post on the FFXIV page you planning on playing that>?