Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.
so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.
that's what Ive been trying to say but people dont seem to get it. Fanboys maybe? I dont know.
I enjoy all aspects of MMOs, I'm a gamer at heart, but as a MMO player I wont try to review a FPS because it is not my type of thing. Let MMO players review MMO games and let FPSer review FPS games. Stop segregating them into PVP only and PVE only. If Darkfall stated "THIS IS ONLY A PVP GAME" then I could warrant a PVPer reviewing it, but since that ISN'T their intention, they actually are implementing PVE then let a MMO player who enjoys ALL THINGS MMO review it.
First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.
So wait a causal gamer reviewing a causal MMO isn't biased? But a PvP gamer reviewing a PvP game is biased? wow....
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
lol Well said! if that was true, 90% of the posts on this site would disappear. It would be a joyful day though.
4 years ago this site has been visited mostly by mmo vets who know the stuff and are pretty objective. rankings and hype those days were pretty accurate. WoW, for example was never in top 5.
then mmorpg.com has been invaded by immature masses. too many inexperienced playersvoting resulted in broken ratings and overhyped games. just dont read this sht anymore
Playing: Rohan Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
First, Alganon doesn't have anything to do with Darkfall (other than it's similar rating) and secondly; I do agree that Darkfall should be reviewed again; However, I disagree that someone who is a PvP'er should review the game. That just creates a biased opinion.
so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.
A PvE'er, a PvP'er.. whatever! If you are reviewing a game that is PvP focused then you better well be at least comfortable with PvP. Darkfall has some of my favorite PvE encounter and Crafting I have ever seen but if I was not comfortable with PvP then I would hate this game too. I am an MMO gamer so I look for all these things, that way I know I will get the most out of what ever I play. If you don't like PvP then go play Final Fantasy.
I am sure the staff reviewing these games select the right people for the job and at the time of the review this game deserved nothing better then a 3 rating. Although because MMO's are constantly growing it is a little unfair to judge a game at release and then never go back and take a second look. I would now give this game an 8 rating now that I have come back after being away for a year.
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
Does Darkfall have skill caps? Does Darkfall have grind based PvP? Does Darkfall have interesting PvE? Does Darkfall have innovative crafting? Does Darkfall have a solid siege system?
I have a free Darkfall account and I can't even bring myself to play it anymore. The promise of Darkfall and what we were given were two completely different things. I was the most hopeful follower of the game ( just check ED's article on Darkfall), and played it completely with the sad realization that Darkfall failed.
Don't understand that post.
you mention the strong points of Darkfall and then you say you don't play ?
I will recap:
no skill caps ! amazing
need effort to progress ! amazing
interesting PvE ! amazing
ok crafting you may got a point..not innovative ..but solid..
DF siege system ! amazing
That get me into Darkfall above any other game ! in Really i didn't touched any other game since i have a DF account..even not a single player and i used to play M&B prior to DF..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Re-reviewing a game like Darkfall will only allow developers to release games in terrible states, but as long as they improve it, they will be forgiven... sorry, don't think so. Bad rating, always a bad rating.
DF has a 6.0 for a reason. It is due to the fact that the masses all agree it is a sub par game. Just becuase a few people like something doesn't mean it is good it means those few people have bad taste, whereas, when you have a larger mass of individuals that agree something is bad then it is generally bad. Just sayin.
That's the most fallacious logic I've heard in a while. Because a "few" people like something it means they have bad taste?
So you're saying the millions of idiot Americans that had America Online (AOL) as their internet service provider (probably one of the worst internet providers... ever... just ask anyone who knows anything about networking i.e. the professionals) means that AOL was amazing and the few people that moved to broadband or other service providers had "bad taste"? Lol.... thanks for making me laugh.
And the masses think it's a sub par game? Newsflash buddy, the masses haven't tried Darkfall. Sure, plenty of people have tried Darkfall and not enjoyed it, but just as many if not more have tried it and loved it. So what does that tell you?
Either way, a lot of people won't like Darkfall PERIOD. Why? Because the average gamer cannot handle a full loot, free for all, risk vs. reward style MMO like Darkfall is.
Why do you think so many people play World of Warcraft? Because it caters to casuals and carebears, which has unfortunately become the common kind of gamer in the MMO community (because of World of Warcraft... go figure!). Hell, my 60 year old aunt plays World of Warcraft, my ex-girlfriend who hates most video games plays World of Warcraft, two of my female co-workers (early 20s) play World of Warcraft.
If you make a game very easy, and in that same game allow players plenty of rewards with little to no risk (ala World of Warcraft), you're going to get a lot of subscribers. It doesn't mean the game is good, it doesn't mean the game is bad, it simply means that it caters towards a larger population of gamers.
But I digress, your argument is so logically flawed it's funny, but keep thinking that's the way it is.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATEDarkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:
- full loot
- free for all PvP
- harsh risks vs. rewards
"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".
Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing?
I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.
I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATEDarkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:
- full loot
- free for all PvP
- harsh risks vs. rewards
"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".
Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing?
I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.
I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.
I strongly agree with this post.
If I had been asked to review Darkfall coming straight out of WOW (my first MMOrpg), I simply would not have been up to the task. I would not have been able to appreciate the game for what it had to offer. However after playing EVE for years (took me a few months and few toons to even get into that at first), I would be much better prepared to review a game like Darkfall.
I just don't understand having someone review something that they most likely have never tried and most likely are not going to enjoy. If I needed a road test on a tank, what benefit would there be to having your average car/SUV driver (most common vehicles on our roads) get behind the controls and pump out a review? It would be pointless.
Like I said before, I wouldn't take a vegan's critique of a restaurant very seriously. Why would anyone but a vegan?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
In the specific case of our first Darkfall review, I thought that the reviewer did a great job of explaining that Darkfall was a game created for a niche audience. He even stated that while he was no longer a member of that niche, that he once was and came at the article from that perspective. In short, he was a PvPer.
But for us to actively look for someone who fits directly and easily into the niche of a game like this would be just as irresponsible and biased of as as if we were to get someone to review the game who hated PvP and never engaged in it within the confines of less harsh games. In both cases, one point of view would be so over-represented as to make the review biased and useless to the average gamer.
Reviews are very subjective things. We'll put aside the fact that the reviews in question were written and scored by two completely different people and concentrate instead on what was said in them. Review are not, and should not be a simple regurgitation of scores. Reviews are, in actuality, about the rationale behind the scores. The reasons that, for example, Alganon got a 5.8 and Darkfall got a 6.0 are vastly different. In reviews as in all things, context is key.
Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP.
Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.
The question is Stradden which is it going to be? We're not expecting anything, you guys have to pick a reviewer and unless you can borrow Lieutenant Commander Data from STO for a while I very much doubt he/she is going to be 100% objective. In fact a totaly objective review would be very boring and doing little more than stating facts, a review should state experiences and what effect those had on the reviewer and his/her thoughts on them also.
You have to pick someone and if you're going to review a PvP game doesn't it stand to reason that the reviewer should have as much experience of PvP MMORPGs as possible and atleast enjoy them to some degree?
Average Joe gamer? What you're suggesting is not reviewing a game on it's merits but reviewing a game depending on your own perception of what the mainstream gamer likes/dislikes. In that case if the average Joe gamer or the mainstream wasn't WoW but rather Shadowbane then DF would logicaly scored higher than 6 and LotRO would be around 6 itself?
Using your logic your reviews seem to depend more upon your perception of the mainstream and what you believe they will like or dislike than the actual game and it's own merits. This is the flaw many here have been pointing out and many fear you will send a mainstream MMORPGer to review a niche game with an obvious result.
We don't get a review of Darkfall online, instead we get an uneducated shallow series of disgruntled sound bites telling you why you need to ultimately avoid this game.
Every Darkfall player here isn't asking for a good review, we're just begging for a fair one. Would it be any more fair to have me write a review of WoW for this site and give it a write up and rating that's going to stick there for a year?
Agricola.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Petition for "ThatMMOGirl" Tiffany doing next Darkfall Review !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Does Darkfall have skill caps? Does Darkfall have grind based PvP? Does Darkfall have interesting PvE? Does Darkfall have innovative crafting? Does Darkfall have a solid siege system?
I have a free Darkfall account and I can't even bring myself to play it anymore. The promise of Darkfall and what we were given were two completely different things. I was the most hopeful follower of the game ( just check ED's article on Darkfall), and played it completely with the sad realization that Darkfall failed.
A free account you do not wish to play? Hell, don't let it goto waste. I've always wanted to try it. PM the account info;)
Uhm....NO......I will FIGHT you for it!
Name the place and time and we'll battle to the death!
I'm only sort of kidding.....I really want to try it too. XD
I have never seen a game community QQ so much. Is a bad review really causing you people so much stress? Is this a game or some some sort of cult?!?!
No it's just really good and it keeps getting better. MMOrpg gamers need to know that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
In the specific case of our first Darkfall review, I thought that the reviewer did a great job of explaining that Darkfall was a game created for a niche audience. He even stated that while he was no longer a member of that niche, that he once was and came at the article from that perspective. In short, he was a PvPer.
But for us to actively look for someone who fits directly and easily into the niche of a game like this would be just as irresponsible and biased of as as if we were to get someone to review the game who hated PvP and never engaged in it within the confines of less harsh games. In both cases, one point of view would be so over-represented as to make the review biased and useless to the average gamer.
Reviews are very subjective things. We'll put aside the fact that the reviews in question were written and scored by two completely different people and concentrate instead on what was said in them. Review are not, and should not be a simple regurgitation of scores. Reviews are, in actuality, about the rationale behind the scores. The reasons that, for example, Alganon got a 5.8 and Darkfall got a 6.0 are vastly different. In reviews as in all things, context is key.
Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP.
Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.
I would like to see a review from a different people on different but major aspect of a game. I have seen some biased reviews from this site, and I personally think in order to be fair I would just get the score that the x number of reviewers gave it, and average it and ultimately get a more legitimate score. We don't want ONE reviewer who may not know certain things other "average joe players" might not know, to have an effect on whether someone gets a false impression over a game. Many average players have very distinct views on what they like, and I personally think if you got a couple of player who think differently from each other you can actually see what kind of audience this game caters too, and how this person who may not like this type of gameplay enjoyed it in this game. Or even how a guy who never participates in PvP takes on a clan siege. A player who may be in to PvP could find raiding in this particularly fun, and could give some insight to player that share the same distinct gameplay style that they hone. That's just my cup of tea to you Stradden.
So are you telling me that an alpha version of a clone of WoW that constantly crashes, plenty of bugs and 1/4 the content WoW had at release received almost the same score as Darkfall Online (6.0)?
I mean even at the time of the DF review it had a solid game engine, did not crash, very very few bugs, the graphics were/are much better, the features: Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOGThe largest handcrafted online world of its kind.Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.Craft any item in the world and put your name on it, Personal Housing, Trade routes etc etc etc
I understand most of the piece written is personal opinion, and as such should not matter much....but it does to anyone willing to try the game And you guys at MMORPG.com write about "innovation" or "breath of fresh air" and give these kind of scores?
Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
DFO has issues that transcend reviewer bench marks. You can put lipstick on a pig but there is a pig behind the lipstick. Once they are addressed the game has the potential to be the holy grail of a pvp sandbox with a political meta game. As it is these core components exist, however the game has issues so rife that thse alone will never make it "THE" game.
Check the PRO/CON thread to get a idea of what they may be if those issues have eluded you.
Edited to add, ive seen very and I mean very large battles in DAOC. The assertion that DFO did it better or had more is still up for debate. Frankly last night EU vets that transfered to NA were laughing about some of the assertions Tassos made in this respect.
I have never seen a game community QQ so much. Is a bad review really causing you people so much stress? Is this a game or some some sort of cult?!?!
No it's just really good and it keeps getting better. MMOrpg gamers need to know that.
Imrpovements are bieng made. Do they address some of the concerns people voice about the game? Not really, so far all I have seen is window dressing. As I have said many times before, the game has potential, but its not even close to realising it.
This of course presupposes you and I think the problem issues are the same. At any rate, the game will live or die on the merits of a robust player population. Not on how much fan spin or lack thereof is generated on this, or any other forum.
At the end of the day it will be the potential suscriber whom determines DFO's fate.
Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP. Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.
This is completely subjective on your part. I am a fan of FFA PvP games, I played Asherons Call Darktide for over two years and was by far my best MMORPG experience ever. I played UO, pre trammel, and was my second best MMORPG experience ever. I am playing Eve and think it is the best current sandbox FFA PvP MMORPG. I played Darkfall, at launch, and thought it was ugly, buggy, easy to gank and abuse environment, easy to hack, severly lacking in content and one of the worst MMORPG UI I have ever seen. So please, dont claim Darkfall deserves a good rate just because it is a sandbox FFA PvP game, that is far from enough to be a good MMORPG. AC DT was a good FFA PvP game, so was UO pre-trammel (for their time) and Eve is a good FFA PvP game. Darkfall is not, or atleast was not when it was launched. It was a horrible mess. Possibly that may have changed now, I dont know, but I had such a bad experience from playing it that I cant bring myself to resubscribe. It was that bad, at launch.
Pretty much sums up my views and experience. DF was lacklustre for me. The mechanics where grindy and unintresting. It just didn't float my boat. I really tried hard to like it but it was a fight every step of the way. It is not a game I would like to rate but 5 seems about right on a scale where 7 is what I would need to give the benefit of the doubt and keep playing. I'd certainly try again when there is a free trial (wasn't everyone going to get one before deciding on purchase?) but from what I have read my view is unlikely to have changed.
It is amazing how some people can think that they are 'better' than others because they can 'handle' a PVP with full loot in a videogame and as such imply the game itself is 'good' because only 'better' people can play it...
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way... qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.
Comments
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.
that's what Ive been trying to say but people dont seem to get it. Fanboys maybe? I dont know.
I enjoy all aspects of MMOs, I'm a gamer at heart, but as a MMO player I wont try to review a FPS because it is not my type of thing. Let MMO players review MMO games and let FPSer review FPS games. Stop segregating them into PVP only and PVE only. If Darkfall stated "THIS IS ONLY A PVP GAME" then I could warrant a PVPer reviewing it, but since that ISN'T their intention, they actually are implementing PVE then let a MMO player who enjoys ALL THINGS MMO review it.
So wait a causal gamer reviewing a causal MMO isn't biased? But a PvP gamer reviewing a PvP game is biased? wow....
lol Well said! if that was true, 90% of the posts on this site would disappear. It would be a joyful day though.
4 years ago this site has been visited mostly by mmo vets who know the stuff and are pretty objective. rankings and hype those days were pretty accurate. WoW, for example was never in top 5.
then mmorpg.com has been invaded by immature masses. too many inexperienced playersvoting resulted in broken ratings and overhyped games. just dont read this sht anymore
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
so how is it not a biased opinion when a PvEr reviews the game? Or does your definition of non-biased mean whoever agrees with you?
No, I'm just saying that you should have someone who is a fan of MMORPGs not just PVP ones review the game.
A PvE'er, a PvP'er.. whatever! If you are reviewing a game that is PvP focused then you better well be at least comfortable with PvP. Darkfall has some of my favorite PvE encounter and Crafting I have ever seen but if I was not comfortable with PvP then I would hate this game too. I am an MMO gamer so I look for all these things, that way I know I will get the most out of what ever I play. If you don't like PvP then go play Final Fantasy.
I am sure the staff reviewing these games select the right people for the job and at the time of the review this game deserved nothing better then a 3 rating. Although because MMO's are constantly growing it is a little unfair to judge a game at release and then never go back and take a second look. I would now give this game an 8 rating now that I have come back after being away for a year.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way... qft
Don't understand that post.
you mention the strong points of Darkfall and then you say you don't play ?
I will recap:
no skill caps ! amazing
need effort to progress ! amazing
interesting PvE ! amazing
ok crafting you may got a point..not innovative ..but solid..
DF siege system ! amazing
That get me into Darkfall above any other game ! in Really i didn't touched any other game since i have a DF account..even not a single player and i used to play M&B prior to DF..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Re-reviewing a game like Darkfall will only allow developers to release games in terrible states, but as long as they improve it, they will be forgiven... sorry, don't think so. Bad rating, always a bad rating.
DF has a 6.0 for a reason. It is due to the fact that the masses all agree it is a sub par game. Just becuase a few people like something doesn't mean it is good it means those few people have bad taste, whereas, when you have a larger mass of individuals that agree something is bad then it is generally bad. Just sayin.
That's the most fallacious logic I've heard in a while. Because a "few" people like something it means they have bad taste?
So you're saying the millions of idiot Americans that had America Online (AOL) as their internet service provider (probably one of the worst internet providers... ever... just ask anyone who knows anything about networking i.e. the professionals) means that AOL was amazing and the few people that moved to broadband or other service providers had "bad taste"? Lol.... thanks for making me laugh.
And the masses think it's a sub par game? Newsflash buddy, the masses haven't tried Darkfall. Sure, plenty of people have tried Darkfall and not enjoyed it, but just as many if not more have tried it and loved it. So what does that tell you?
Either way, a lot of people won't like Darkfall PERIOD. Why? Because the average gamer cannot handle a full loot, free for all, risk vs. reward style MMO like Darkfall is.
Why do you think so many people play World of Warcraft? Because it caters to casuals and carebears, which has unfortunately become the common kind of gamer in the MMO community (because of World of Warcraft... go figure!). Hell, my 60 year old aunt plays World of Warcraft, my ex-girlfriend who hates most video games plays World of Warcraft, two of my female co-workers (early 20s) play World of Warcraft.
If you make a game very easy, and in that same game allow players plenty of rewards with little to no risk (ala World of Warcraft), you're going to get a lot of subscribers. It doesn't mean the game is good, it doesn't mean the game is bad, it simply means that it caters towards a larger population of gamers.
But I digress, your argument is so logically flawed it's funny, but keep thinking that's the way it is.
Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATE Darkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:
- full loot
- free for all PvP
- harsh risks vs. rewards
"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".
Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing?
I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.
I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.
Stradden, do you seriously not see the problem with that? "joe average gamer" is going to HATE Darkfall, because "joe average gamer" can't stand:
- full loot
- free for all PvP
- harsh risks vs. rewards
"joe average gamer" is the kind of gamer that plays World of Warcraft, plays Aion, plays Age of Conan, etc. I'm not saying these games are bad for the audiences they cater towards (casuals, carebears, etc), but you can't take someone from World of Warcraft, throw them into the world of Agon, and expect that they're going to have a "grand old time".
Let me ask you this: If World of Warcraft all of a sudden implemented full loot, do you really think even 25% of the player base would continue playing?
I'd argue strongly that no, they wouldn't. That ONE aspect of gameplay, i.e. full loot, would turn off SO MANY of the "joe average gamers" you are talking about, because "joe average gamer" can't stand losing his pixels, and "joe average gamer" likes having his hand held, and "joe average gamer" likes the kind of things seen in themepark style MMOs.
I'm not saying have a hardcore PvP fan review the game, because yes, I would find that to be somewhat biased, but please, for the love of god, let someone who can HANDLE full loot, who can HANDLE free for all PvP, and who can HANDLE having to risk a hell of a lot for a reward (which doesn't happen in the other games I mentioned) review this game. Then, I'll be satisfied, even if that reviewer gives another poor score.
I strongly agree with this post.
If I had been asked to review Darkfall coming straight out of WOW (my first MMOrpg), I simply would not have been up to the task. I would not have been able to appreciate the game for what it had to offer. However after playing EVE for years (took me a few months and few toons to even get into that at first), I would be much better prepared to review a game like Darkfall.
I just don't understand having someone review something that they most likely have never tried and most likely are not going to enjoy. If I needed a road test on a tank, what benefit would there be to having your average car/SUV driver (most common vehicles on our roads) get behind the controls and pump out a review? It would be pointless.
Like I said before, I wouldn't take a vegan's critique of a restaurant very seriously. Why would anyone but a vegan?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
In the specific case of our first Darkfall review, I thought that the reviewer did a great job of explaining that Darkfall was a game created for a niche audience. He even stated that while he was no longer a member of that niche, that he once was and came at the article from that perspective. In short, he was a PvPer.
But for us to actively look for someone who fits directly and easily into the niche of a game like this would be just as irresponsible and biased of as as if we were to get someone to review the game who hated PvP and never engaged in it within the confines of less harsh games. In both cases, one point of view would be so over-represented as to make the review biased and useless to the average gamer.
Reviews are very subjective things. We'll put aside the fact that the reviews in question were written and scored by two completely different people and concentrate instead on what was said in them. Review are not, and should not be a simple regurgitation of scores. Reviews are, in actuality, about the rationale behind the scores. The reasons that, for example, Alganon got a 5.8 and Darkfall got a 6.0 are vastly different. In reviews as in all things, context is key.
Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP.
Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.
The question is Stradden which is it going to be? We're not expecting anything, you guys have to pick a reviewer and unless you can borrow Lieutenant Commander Data from STO for a while I very much doubt he/she is going to be 100% objective. In fact a totaly objective review would be very boring and doing little more than stating facts, a review should state experiences and what effect those had on the reviewer and his/her thoughts on them also.
You have to pick someone and if you're going to review a PvP game doesn't it stand to reason that the reviewer should have as much experience of PvP MMORPGs as possible and atleast enjoy them to some degree?
Average Joe gamer? What you're suggesting is not reviewing a game on it's merits but reviewing a game depending on your own perception of what the mainstream gamer likes/dislikes. In that case if the average Joe gamer or the mainstream wasn't WoW but rather Shadowbane then DF would logicaly scored higher than 6 and LotRO would be around 6 itself?
Using your logic your reviews seem to depend more upon your perception of the mainstream and what you believe they will like or dislike than the actual game and it's own merits. This is the flaw many here have been pointing out and many fear you will send a mainstream MMORPGer to review a niche game with an obvious result.
We don't get a review of Darkfall online, instead we get an uneducated shallow series of disgruntled sound bites telling you why you need to ultimately avoid this game.
Every Darkfall player here isn't asking for a good review, we're just begging for a fair one. Would it be any more fair to have me write a review of WoW for this site and give it a write up and rating that's going to stick there for a year?
Agricola.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Petition for "ThatMMOGirl" Tiffany doing next Darkfall Review !
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
A free account you do not wish to play? Hell, don't let it goto waste. I've always wanted to try it. PM the account info;)
Uhm....NO......I will FIGHT you for it!
Name the place and time and we'll battle to the death!
I'm only sort of kidding.....I really want to try it too. XD
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I have never seen a game community QQ so much. Is a bad review really causing you people so much stress?
Is this a game or some some sort of cult?!?!
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
No it's just really good and it keeps getting better. MMOrpg gamers need to know that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
In the specific case of our first Darkfall review, I thought that the reviewer did a great job of explaining that Darkfall was a game created for a niche audience. He even stated that while he was no longer a member of that niche, that he once was and came at the article from that perspective. In short, he was a PvPer.
But for us to actively look for someone who fits directly and easily into the niche of a game like this would be just as irresponsible and biased of as as if we were to get someone to review the game who hated PvP and never engaged in it within the confines of less harsh games. In both cases, one point of view would be so over-represented as to make the review biased and useless to the average gamer.
Reviews are very subjective things. We'll put aside the fact that the reviews in question were written and scored by two completely different people and concentrate instead on what was said in them. Review are not, and should not be a simple regurgitation of scores. Reviews are, in actuality, about the rationale behind the scores. The reasons that, for example, Alganon got a 5.8 and Darkfall got a 6.0 are vastly different. In reviews as in all things, context is key.
Now, with all of that being said, we have a loose policy of wanting to look at an MMO again a year after its initial review. Of course we're looking for someone to take another look at Darkfall, just don't expect us to use someone whose gaming experience is defined by hardcore PvP any more than we're going to use someone who will hate a game just because it has PvP.
Anyway, I hope that clears things up for you.
I would like to see a review from a different people on different but major aspect of a game. I have seen some biased reviews from this site, and I personally think in order to be fair I would just get the score that the x number of reviewers gave it, and average it and ultimately get a more legitimate score. We don't want ONE reviewer who may not know certain things other "average joe players" might not know, to have an effect on whether someone gets a false impression over a game. Many average players have very distinct views on what they like, and I personally think if you got a couple of player who think differently from each other you can actually see what kind of audience this game caters too, and how this person who may not like this type of gameplay enjoyed it in this game. Or even how a guy who never participates in PvP takes on a clan siege. A player who may be in to PvP could find raiding in this particularly fun, and could give some insight to player that share the same distinct gameplay style that they hone. That's just my cup of tea to you Stradden.
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
DFO has issues that transcend reviewer bench marks. You can put lipstick on a pig but there is a pig behind the lipstick. Once they are addressed the game has the potential to be the holy grail of a pvp sandbox with a political meta game. As it is these core components exist, however the game has issues so rife that thse alone will never make it "THE" game.
Check the PRO/CON thread to get a idea of what they may be if those issues have eluded you.
Edited to add, ive seen very and I mean very large battles in DAOC. The assertion that DFO did it better or had more is still up for debate. Frankly last night EU vets that transfered to NA were laughing about some of the assertions Tassos made in this respect.
No it's just really good and it keeps getting better. MMOrpg gamers need to know that.
Imrpovements are bieng made. Do they address some of the concerns people voice about the game? Not really, so far all I have seen is window dressing. As I have said many times before, the game has potential, but its not even close to realising it.
This of course presupposes you and I think the problem issues are the same. At any rate, the game will live or die on the merits of a robust player population. Not on how much fan spin or lack thereof is generated on this, or any other forum.
At the end of the day it will be the potential suscriber whom determines DFO's fate.
I hear Ed Zitron is looking for work :-)
Pretty much sums up my views and experience. DF was lacklustre for me. The mechanics where grindy and unintresting. It just didn't float my boat. I really tried hard to like it but it was a fight every step of the way. It is not a game I would like to rate but 5 seems about right on a scale where 7 is what I would need to give the benefit of the doubt and keep playing. I'd certainly try again when there is a free trial (wasn't everyone going to get one before deciding on purchase?) but from what I have read my view is unlikely to have changed.
It is amazing how some people can think that they are 'better' than others because they can 'handle' a PVP with full loot in a videogame and as such imply the game itself is 'good' because only 'better' people can play it...
Simply amazing.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way... qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.