But the point you keep missing is that it is not up to you, Stradden or any reviewer to say what "average joe" likes...............get my point?
As you said yourself, it is the market deciding what is so called niche or not.
WoW and the clones have millions of subsribers, let alone WoW taking more than 50% of western MMO market. Asian market which is probably much bigger, consisting of pretty much only 'monkeys can play' games so I guess it is not that difficult to say what those 'average Joes' like... and that has nothing to do with personal taste.
How other people look at and read reviews I dont' know nor I care thus provided 'service' is just a matter of taste.
WoW have millions of subscribers.....................not its clones.
And that's exactly my point.
MMORPG reviewers assume that all "average joe" wants is WoW like games because the success of it, therefore they give themepark games higher scores regardless of their quality.
The problem is that actually the average player (at least in the western world) keep rejecting such games even when sites like this one give them raving reviews (Aion and WAR just to mention few).
This tells me that the "experts" are out of sink with what an average gamer really wants, therefore they should stop assuming what gamers will play and let them decide, by giving every type of MMO the same chances and not penalizing the so called niche genres with a lower score just because the game in question is not mainstream enough (in their head)
Players are trying to leave WoW, but everytime something new is released the quality is so low that they come back to WoW.
Those players want something different from WoW................not the same soup.
So when you give DF a 6, which is still a decent score by the way, majority of those players won't even try it...................but they will keep waisting their money in games like Aion, just because sites like this one keep giving games like that scores of 8-9.
Now tell me what's professional about that.
I am not a DF fanboy in fact in another thread I give the game a 7 (personal opinion), so I am not part of the crowd who shouts "give it a 9 FTW!!!", nor I want to suggest that my score is the right one.
I played EQ2 for 4 years and WoW for 2 years, so I am one of those "average joe" MMORPG review is aimed at, still I love Darkfall.
What I am saying is that a reviewer should not assume what an average player might like, particular in an industry which is still in its infancy.
We still don't know the true potential of the MMO industry and we can't really predict which course it will take in the next few years.
Who knows maybe in ten years we will be talking about the opposite and I will be defending the themepark games because all the MMOs in 10 years will be sandboxes and reviewers will underscore the themepark games because they think they are not mainstream enough.
You're now arguing semantics instead of the point of your post, which is what people do when they know they are losing a debate. The point of your post was that a review of a game will be adversely impacted (ie won't get "rave reviews") solely because it does not target the average gamer. And yes, it is a pretty "simple" philosophy. That i agree with. This site does cater to a certain audience. Those that like mmorpgs. I was not aware up to this point that it only catered to those who like WoW (joe average gamer).
I edited original reply while you were responding. I'm not really here to win or lose a debate. If you approach a simple conversation that way then you stand to walk away with nohting gained. But really, my arguing semantics are no worse then your arguing semantics. You assume a meaning based on my wording and my intentions did not fit your assumptions. To distill my post down to a one liner is a bit of a waste though. I thought there were a couple points, but to each their own.
As far as the site audience, it is a fair assertion that Darkfall makes up a small portion of the over all audience, much like EvE does, Fallen Earth, MO, Earthrise, etc. It is also fair to say that WoW, LoTRO and various other games make up a fairly significant portion of the audience. As such, either overtly or as a result, the site will cater to that larger portion. Again, this really says nothing about the quality or lack-there-of of any specific game.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
Does it, does it really have to take into account the tastes of the average? If so, then you are basically reviewing for one target demographic, the same people who really enjoy WOW and would never enjoy a game preferred by a niche player.
Joe average hates EVE, yet EVE has been trashed at times (not recently) for being a crap game, usually because the reviewer (see Yahtzee) hates this sort of game.
Perhaps what you really need is the perspective of three sorts of players, the person who despises PVP (so they can rate the game strictly from a PVE perspective), Joe average reviewer who likes PVP when its fair and balanced, and only when he wants to PVP, and the FFA PVP lover, who distains PVE with his heart and soul and wonders why he can't gank people in the tutorial.
Then you could have a truly balanced review of the game which would really cover all the bases and people would understand the game bettter.
Joe average said Warhammer was up in the stratosphere, with scores up in the 9 range. Joe average was nuts and even he came to soon realize that the game didn't belong in the same breath as a game like WOW. (it was a firm 7.0 at launch, being generous)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One more point of order on this thread. To the DF fans, the reason people are not trying DF has nothing to do with a review on this site giving it a 6.0. Rather its due to the following:
1) Your target demographic market is small, face the facts, FFA PVP. full loot all the time with few penalties for bad behavior isn't fun for a majority of the gaming market. I play EVE, but that's because I am very much in control of how often I die, even when out in low sec or 0.0 space. Sure, I die some, but nothing so severe that it drives me from the game.
I've read that DF can be like this too, maybe so, but then I recommend you consider protecting the new players who show up and not gank them. I know that New clan started up for just this purpose (like EVE university) and its a great start, but seriously guys, lay off the newbie ganking.
2) People believe the game is riddled with hackers. There's been countless posts even recently that have people bemoaning the use of hacks. That alone is a huge reason that keeps me from even trying to play DF. Gotta do something to change this perception.
3) Bad graphics. I dunno, I'm very lenient and prefer game play to graphics, but the more metro among us seem to have a fetish over graphics. Not sure DF can be improved in their eyes until AV overhauls the game.
4) Bad PVE. Yes, people say there's not enough camps of mobs, not enough crafting, not enough housing etc. I like to do both PVP and PVE (about 40/60 split tops) so I stay away because it sounds like a large portion of the game play is missing for me.
I could bring up a few more, but the point is, its the sum total "perception" I and others have about the game that keeps us away.
We're probably totally wrong, or blowing things way out of proportion but there is one solution that AV refuses to do that might solve the problem.
Free Trials.
Yes, before I played EVE, I read a lot of posts, both good and bad, and I stayed clear of it for years even though some friends of mine told me it was good. Bad reviews coupled with negative posts held me back.
But one day, in between games (think I had just thrown in the towel on LotRO) the "free trial offer" for EVE caught my eye on this site, and I said, what the heck, go for it.
2.5+ years and 3 accounts that I pay for later, here we are.
So if AV really wants to get serious about drawing in new players (like me) they're going to have to have enough confidence to give people the chance to play it.
Or mount a mega-million dollar advertising campaign on my favorite cable channels like Blizzard does. (and even they offer free trials) But if they go this route, I wanna see Megan Fox not Mr. T.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The point of the review score is to give the game a general rating, which takes everything of the game into account, and not only PvP. If the PvP part is outstanding, then that should be mentioned in the review or some captions at place, to make sure the PvPers see it. But giving DF a rating based only because of it's PvP would be the same as rating LOTRO only according to it's landscapes.
Players are rejecting 'recently' released games? People play the games because of reviews? How did you find all that out?
All I understand is that you are illusioning yourself only and projecting your own values on others. That is so far from reality leaving nothing I can reply to.
Just one more point then I’ll leave this thread alone…promise
I am not a hardcore PvPer. In fact, other than a very short jaunt in Eve, Darkfall is my first true PvP game. I never played UO. Never played DAOC. I was a die-hard EQer who played that game from the first minute they opened up the servers up until a couple years ago. I then moved on to Vanguard which I thought was going to be my new home for the next decade. I even played that game for over a year before it’s failings and their slow move towards Wow-ifying the game drove me away.
So, at heart, I’m really a PvE person. I decided to give Darkfall a try because I just couldn’t stomach all the themepark games coming out all designed to play like WoW with lightning-fast experience curves, zero danger, people actually using death as a travel mechanic, no consequences for your actions and bling growing on trees etc. I understand a lot of people like those types of games but it just never got my juices flowing as everything felt watered down and meaningless.
So I decided to give a PvP game a chance, despite the bad reviews from sites such as MMORPG, because I wanted to play a game where I had to be careful, cautious as I moved around the world, a game with politics and meaning behind battles being won and lost, a game where death and failure stings a little which in turn brings more meaning to those successes you experience. Not to mention a game with real ship battles where you can bring a large battleship full of canons up the coast and start pounding a key coastal city to soften it up for your ground troops to eventually take it over. And by the way, watch out for the kraken or you could be toast before you ever reach that city! Also a game with more challenging PvE mobs that don’t just stand there while your avatar automatically swings his weapon pounding the dumb mob into oblivion (or Bolivia if you’re Mike Tyson, but I digress).
Anyway, I think there are a lot of people out there like me who are long-time PvE folks that are getting tired of the same mainstream games being made more and more casual that just don’t generate the excitement that the older (some would say harder) games used to. I think a lot of those people who are on the fence about something like Darkfall put a lot of weight on gamesite reviews as they try to find their next mmorpg fix.
And that is why fans of a game like Darkfall are so passionate about reviews being accurate, and not being influenced by whether or not the game is targeted at average WoW gamer. It’s not the current fans of Darkfall you are doing a disservice to (other than potentially harming the sub numbers) but the people out there like me who are looking for a mmorpg to play but are afraid to drop the cash on a game like Darkfall because websites catering to people who like WoW-style games give a game that is very different from WoW a bad rating. And yes, as I mentioned it is important to fans of the game because the health of the game depends on getting subs. Naturally anything that adversely impacts subs will get a strong reaction, especially if it is perceived as unfair which is obviously the case here.
Anyway, there you go. I don’t expect this to change anybody’s mind because the people who don’t like Darkfall will take whatever stance necessary to support their view of the game and the treatment they believe it deserves since it doesn’t cater to their playstyle. That’s just the way gaming message boards work unfortunately as people get to hide behind their anonymity and feel that they don’t really need to support their position with facts or sensical arguments.
I do, however, hope that this may make just a wee bit of sense to even a single person associated with mmorpg.com who may be in a position to do something about it. I doubt it, but hope is a good thing regardless.
Originally posted by maji The point of the review score is to give the game a general rating, which takes everything of the game into account, and not only PvP. If the PvP part is outstanding, then that should be mentioned in the review or some captions at place, to make sure the PvPers see it. But giving DF a rating based only because of it's PvP would be the same as rating LOTRO only according to it's landscapes.
People play LOTRO mainly for PvE not for landscapes. You are not sending trashmetal fan to write a review of new britney spears album and how it appeals to "avarage joe music listener". Darkfall is FFA PvP full loot game and is made for people that like that. It's not made for people gathering epics, doing PvP ladder or instanced dungeons thus lack of this features should not in any way lowers overall score.
Score should tell target audience (PvP full loot player base) how game will fit their tastes. If you would send me to review WoW (and most likely half of current Darkfall player base) I would rate it around 3/10. I don't like WoW, I don't like instances, pointless PvP, scripted bosses and no penalty for loosing. So, WoW is 3/10 game? Hell no. It's really good for people with different taste. You can't please all players at once (look all those people bashing EVE which is imho best sandbox on market). The sooner mmorpg realizes that the better.
Players are rejecting 'recently' released games? People play the games because of reviews? How did you find all that out?
All I understand is that you are illusioning yourself only and projecting your own values on others. That is so far from reality leaving nothing I can reply to.
On the contrary, you look like the one out of touch with reality by giving your interpretation of what an average player rappresents which is out of sink what the reality is.
If you give a game a 9 and another a 6 and you have $50 in your pocket, it doesn't take a genius which game the player will buy.
It is also a fact that games who got high scores like WAR, Aion, AoC, CO and from next month STO had a shelf life of 1 or 2 months, before the majority of players abandoned the ship.
Just check how many server mergers those game had (and how fast), sign that unlike what the scores suggests, they hardly as good as reviewers want us to believe..................
So to people who are aware of how the industry is developing is pretty obvious the average player is not so "average", and should not be patronised by telling them what they are supposed to like.
If Chess Online came out, it would probably get a really crappy score.
The lobby system, all the instancing and how the ladder is dominated by seasoned veterans. The issues with it would probably be - a lack of a PvE element - no auction house - no housing - no plans to add new pieces in future expansions - limited game world - no casting or ranged classes
For those who specifically like an arena to test one's personal skill against another in a strategic game, Chess Online is probably an amazing game. Chess itself is an amazing game - it is a classic that has stood the test of time far longer than most games.
As an MMO, it's a piece of crap that Joe MMO Gamer would consider unpolished and boring. As an MMO, it would probably get a score of 4.0 out of 10 or less.
"How can you rate Chess a 4 out of 10? The PvP is great! The combat is balanced! WTF?"
Rating Chess Online a 10.0 because of the solid design of its PvP element doesn't offer an accurate score for the average gamer. The average gamer would seriously wonder how such an incomplete and limited game would even get half that score.
I was waffling back and forth; I could see both sides of the argument here... UNTIL I read this post.
Excellent analogy Loktofeit. This analogy, to me, makes Stradden's statement make sense.
DF has a 6.0 for a reason. It is due to the fact that the masses all agree it is a sub par game. Just becuase a few people like something doesn't mean it is good it means those few people have bad taste, whereas, when you have a larger mass of individuals that agree something is bad then it is generally bad. Just sayin.
So what you telling me is that if 1million people told you a poop andwhich tasted good youd eat it? i mean, it cant taste like poop if a large mass says it doesnt can it?
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
I disagree immensely.
Who decides what is niche? The market does, not a reviewer.
Darkfall is a different game, it is a subgenre of the MMO industry, in which case you cannot judge it with the same measures you use for games like WoW.
DF is still a niche because reviewers do not score the game for what it is, but for what they think it is, therefore people don't want to give it a go due to the mediocre scoring................that's why is still a niche.
And even if it was a niche, why is it right to underscore something which is aimed at some minorities?
Everyone who is joining DF now after months of wait because the bad reviews, cannot believe how far those reviews were from the real thing, and they praise the game all over the forums, I barely notice any bad reviews from new players nowadays (maybe your niche is not so small after all)
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Would you rate a Toyota better than a Jeep because they sell more, and the Jeep is only for a niche of lonely cowboys?
I think what you are implying is a bit naive John.
For this simple rule which you seems to support we have shocking reviews like Aion who scored a 9 and Darkfall who scored a 6.
And even with a score of 9 Aion bombed spectacularly, that's because players are less "average Joe" than you might think.
In the real world everything is rated within its market niche.
So Metallica are rated within the music/metal sphere, while Britney within the Music/Pop sphere ( MMORPG/sandboxPvP and MMORPG/themepark respectively in our case).
Jeep is compared to other offroads cars while toyota is matched against other family cars, and so on.
That's the way it works..................
I am amazed to discover that a site like MMORPG.com still do not understand that the MMORPG market is diversifying itself, like the single player games, music, and the movie industry, but pretty much like anything else in the real world..
Today saying this game is "just" a MMORPG is restrictive, today a MMORPG can be sandbox, themepark, PvP centric, PvE centric, Social, FPS, RTS, and I am sure many more subgenres will emerge.
It is time to acknowledge this.
If you cannot understand those basics, forget about reviewing games, because you are doing a disservice to your readers, and to the whole industry by promoting the same boring and unimaginative stuff coming from the big developers, while at the same time you are damaging all the small companies who try to bring something new to this industry.
In other words you are promoting mediocrity.
It may come as a surprise to you, but some gamers actually read the reviews and decide for themselves if the game is their cup of tea. Tell me something, if a reviewer said a game sucked because it had FFA full loot PvP, would you not play the game because the reviewer scored it a 6 because of that? If you have an sense, you'd likely buy that game, because the reviewer just confirmed it has a feature that you really enjoy. Just like you'd likely not play a game that scored a 8, because the reviewer thought the game was a lot of fun due to the 1000's of quests there are to do; assuming you don't like to quest grind.
My point is that the score isn't important, the review is. As long as a reviewer is being objective, a player can read it and decide for themselves that the game might not be for them. So I offer myself as proof that gamers don't pay attention to review scores, and instead pay more attention to the review itself. Not only that, but a review only has a small influence on whether or not a player will play a game. Other influences are marketing, how that business treats the consumers, population of the game, support, and how the players treat potential players. Don't forget, every player is a potential player, so when you're representing Darkfall and act like a jerk on the forums, it just drives people away from the game. In my opinion, the community that loves Darkfall ruined Darkfall, not a review score or a review. You can thank your fellow buddies for that and stop blaiming mmorpg.com.
If Chess Online came out, it would probably get a really crappy score.
The lobby system, all the instancing and how the ladder is dominated by seasoned veterans. The issues with it would probably be - a lack of a PvE element - no auction house - no housing - no plans to add new pieces in future expansions - limited game world - no casting or ranged classes
I was waffling back and forth; I could see both sides of the argument here... UNTIL I read this post.
Excellent analogy Loktofeit. This analogy, to me, makes Stradden's statement make sense.
Trust me this is the wrong example.
We are talking about games that features vs features can outstrip the majority of themepark games here, yet they get a couple of points deducted just because the reviewer feel the average joe won't appreciate the gameplay.
On the other hand the games they score best, which supposedly has what the average joe is looking for, bomb after a couple of months.
Don't you think there is something wrong with this?
Read my other posts about the consequences of assuming what the average player likes.
Stradden I hope you are taking notes....your website's readers put forth some compelling arguments yes?
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
Stradden I hope you are taking notes....your website's readers put forth some compelling arguments yes?
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
It may come as a surprise to you, but some gamers actually read the reviews and decide for themselves if the game is their cup of tea. Tell me something, if a reviewer said a game sucked because it had FFA full loot PvP, would you not play the game because the reviewer scored it a 6 because of that?
It might come as a surprise to you but majority look only at the score, trust me
Yes I know it is wrong and personally I don't care about the score when I buy a game.............that's why I bought Darkfall.
But this is not the point.
Whether the score is important or not, this is not the real issue, the real issue is why not score the game for its quality (or lack of) rather than base their review thinking about how many people would buy it.
Why we should not assume what an average player might like? Read my previous posts to know the answer.
Finding someone to rereview this game fully will be extremely difficult. Spending 30 hours is simply not enough time given how long it takes to experiences all the aspects of this game. At the same time you need to find a reviewer who is open to the idea of an open ended style game, not adverse to PvP, and has the right amount of balance. I've played this game literally off and on for a year, and there still new things aspects of the game I get exposed to. Aside from whatever the game mechanics are, there is an entire meta game with politics that goes on in vent servers and on the forums. Even if a new reviewer was going to start playing today, I don't see how they could experience all of the various parts of the game and write about it for at least a few months.
You can say that about any game. An editor has to draw the line somewhere. 1 month seems like a good line, since that's as long as any game has to convince the customer to take the plunge to subscribe.
Originally posted by bluebawles The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
Why I you trying to change Straddens opinion then?
Stradden I hope you are taking notes....your website's readers put forth some compelling arguments yes?
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
So considering you aren't going to listen to anyone regarding this issue, neither those in the community or those directly involved in the reviewing ; you are just going to stand on your podium and shout " Foul " over and over? Whats the point ... the issue isn't the way the reviewing is done at this point, the issue is with your( and others) understanding of it and assumptions on it.
I can tell you this, this site is based on reviewers that NEED hand holding carebear devs to help them, and cant figure anything out for themselves.
The reason why they gave it a low score is because, most of the people on this site are "Kids" who cant figure games out for themselves and need the real themepark( like wow) to tell them what to do, so if they give DFO a good score, and then a kid comes and say it was to hard and had no direction, they would get flamed, so they are doing what kids would do.
But they need to review it, a lot has changed. It will probably get reviewed by the same kid-carebear and will get a 6-7 again. Sandbox is a dying breed for the most part.
Perhaps what you really need is the perspective of three sorts of players, the person who despises PVP (so they can rate the game strictly from a PVE perspective), Joe average reviewer who likes PVP when its fair and balanced, and only when he wants to PVP, and the FFA PVP lover, who distains PVE with his heart and soul and wonders why he can't gank people in the tutorial.
As usual, I could not agree with you more Kyleran. This goes to the very core of this sites review system, which has little credibility to many of the members here. This is not about any one score given here to any game, but about a better system of reading credible reviews that people can put some stock in. The review system on this site needs to be rethought out in my opinion. MMOs and the people who play them come in so many shapes and styles, that people have a right to know the perspectives and background of the people writing the reviews.
When someone clicks the reviews button at the top of this page, there should be an option to read the reviews written by members of this site, rated by members of this site. I hate to use gamespot as an example, but their system of reader reviews are a great measure of a game. You are able to browse through reviews written by their members, that are rated as helpful or bad. This enables someone seeking information about a game to get a wide range of viewpoints about the game they are reading on. If you still want to have a single staff member review, we need to know what their background is, and easy access to see how they scored other games. Aion people don't want to read reviews written by an EVE / Darkfall fan, and Darkfall and EVE fans don't want to read reviews written by someone who thinks Aion is the highest rated MMORPG of all time.
Who is Average Joe anyways? Is it someone who likes theme park games? Or is it someone who like many fans of this genre are absolutely disgusted to the core with the way this genre has been cranking out shallow and linear games that have people quitting in under 60 days? It's all a matter of perspective again, and for a site as central as this one, I think people should have it.
The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
Why I you trying to change Straddens opinion then?
Because it is my right of free speech while I dont break the terms of service on this website.
Originally posted by ste2000 [ On the contrary, you look like the one out of touch with reality by giving your interpretation of what an average player rappresents which is out of sink what the reality is.
If subscriber drops after release is the only fact your assumptions are based on, I have to disappoint you since this is very natural and common appereance in business practice.
You are able to browse through reviews written by their members, that are rated as helpful or bad. This enables someone seeking information about a game to get a wide range of viewpoints about the game they are reading on.
Given the number of self-submitted user reviews in any game's forums, I think this is a pretty good idea. Once you get into the rating as "helpful" or "bad" you still get the potential for abuse that any rating system is open to, but I imagine that could be mitigated. What better way to serve the site community then to consider community generated content as something useful?
It'd be nice to see the review tab of a game split into staff review and reader reviews and let people take it from there. Could be really interesting to see where that idea would go. People would still complain about the staff review, but thats why they would be there right? :P That said, I tend to put more stock in what a sampling of players have to say then what a single review might say, so the player submitted reviews would be a great addition.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Comments
As you said yourself, it is the market deciding what is so called niche or not.
WoW and the clones have millions of subsribers, let alone WoW taking more than 50% of western MMO market. Asian market which is probably much bigger, consisting of pretty much only 'monkeys can play' games so I guess it is not that difficult to say what those 'average Joes' like... and that has nothing to do with personal taste.
How other people look at and read reviews I dont' know nor I care thus provided 'service' is just a matter of taste.
WoW have millions of subscribers.....................not its clones.
And that's exactly my point.
MMORPG reviewers assume that all "average joe" wants is WoW like games because the success of it, therefore they give themepark games higher scores regardless of their quality.
The problem is that actually the average player (at least in the western world) keep rejecting such games even when sites like this one give them raving reviews (Aion and WAR just to mention few).
This tells me that the "experts" are out of sink with what an average gamer really wants, therefore they should stop assuming what gamers will play and let them decide, by giving every type of MMO the same chances and not penalizing the so called niche genres with a lower score just because the game in question is not mainstream enough (in their head)
Players are trying to leave WoW, but everytime something new is released the quality is so low that they come back to WoW.
Those players want something different from WoW................not the same soup.
So when you give DF a 6, which is still a decent score by the way, majority of those players won't even try it...................but they will keep waisting their money in games like Aion, just because sites like this one keep giving games like that scores of 8-9.
Now tell me what's professional about that.
I am not a DF fanboy in fact in another thread I give the game a 7 (personal opinion), so I am not part of the crowd who shouts "give it a 9 FTW!!!", nor I want to suggest that my score is the right one.
I played EQ2 for 4 years and WoW for 2 years, so I am one of those "average joe" MMORPG review is aimed at, still I love Darkfall.
What I am saying is that a reviewer should not assume what an average player might like, particular in an industry which is still in its infancy.
We still don't know the true potential of the MMO industry and we can't really predict which course it will take in the next few years.
Who knows maybe in ten years we will be talking about the opposite and I will be defending the themepark games because all the MMOs in 10 years will be sandboxes and reviewers will underscore the themepark games because they think they are not mainstream enough.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
I edited original reply while you were responding. I'm not really here to win or lose a debate. If you approach a simple conversation that way then you stand to walk away with nohting gained. But really, my arguing semantics are no worse then your arguing semantics. You assume a meaning based on my wording and my intentions did not fit your assumptions. To distill my post down to a one liner is a bit of a waste though. I thought there were a couple points, but to each their own.
As far as the site audience, it is a fair assertion that Darkfall makes up a small portion of the over all audience, much like EvE does, Fallen Earth, MO, Earthrise, etc. It is also fair to say that WoW, LoTRO and various other games make up a fairly significant portion of the audience. As such, either overtly or as a result, the site will cater to that larger portion. Again, this really says nothing about the quality or lack-there-of of any specific game.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
Does it, does it really have to take into account the tastes of the average? If so, then you are basically reviewing for one target demographic, the same people who really enjoy WOW and would never enjoy a game preferred by a niche player.
Joe average hates EVE, yet EVE has been trashed at times (not recently) for being a crap game, usually because the reviewer (see Yahtzee) hates this sort of game.
Perhaps what you really need is the perspective of three sorts of players, the person who despises PVP (so they can rate the game strictly from a PVE perspective), Joe average reviewer who likes PVP when its fair and balanced, and only when he wants to PVP, and the FFA PVP lover, who distains PVE with his heart and soul and wonders why he can't gank people in the tutorial.
Then you could have a truly balanced review of the game which would really cover all the bases and people would understand the game bettter.
Joe average said Warhammer was up in the stratosphere, with scores up in the 9 range. Joe average was nuts and even he came to soon realize that the game didn't belong in the same breath as a game like WOW. (it was a firm 7.0 at launch, being generous)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One more point of order on this thread. To the DF fans, the reason people are not trying DF has nothing to do with a review on this site giving it a 6.0. Rather its due to the following:
1) Your target demographic market is small, face the facts, FFA PVP. full loot all the time with few penalties for bad behavior isn't fun for a majority of the gaming market. I play EVE, but that's because I am very much in control of how often I die, even when out in low sec or 0.0 space. Sure, I die some, but nothing so severe that it drives me from the game.
I've read that DF can be like this too, maybe so, but then I recommend you consider protecting the new players who show up and not gank them. I know that New clan started up for just this purpose (like EVE university) and its a great start, but seriously guys, lay off the newbie ganking.
2) People believe the game is riddled with hackers. There's been countless posts even recently that have people bemoaning the use of hacks. That alone is a huge reason that keeps me from even trying to play DF. Gotta do something to change this perception.
3) Bad graphics. I dunno, I'm very lenient and prefer game play to graphics, but the more metro among us seem to have a fetish over graphics. Not sure DF can be improved in their eyes until AV overhauls the game.
4) Bad PVE. Yes, people say there's not enough camps of mobs, not enough crafting, not enough housing etc. I like to do both PVP and PVE (about 40/60 split tops) so I stay away because it sounds like a large portion of the game play is missing for me.
I could bring up a few more, but the point is, its the sum total "perception" I and others have about the game that keeps us away.
We're probably totally wrong, or blowing things way out of proportion but there is one solution that AV refuses to do that might solve the problem.
Free Trials.
Yes, before I played EVE, I read a lot of posts, both good and bad, and I stayed clear of it for years even though some friends of mine told me it was good. Bad reviews coupled with negative posts held me back.
But one day, in between games (think I had just thrown in the towel on LotRO) the "free trial offer" for EVE caught my eye on this site, and I said, what the heck, go for it.
2.5+ years and 3 accounts that I pay for later, here we are.
So if AV really wants to get serious about drawing in new players (like me) they're going to have to have enough confidence to give people the chance to play it.
Or mount a mega-million dollar advertising campaign on my favorite cable channels like Blizzard does. (and even they offer free trials) But if they go this route, I wanna see Megan Fox not Mr. T.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The point of the review score is to give the game a general rating, which takes everything of the game into account, and not only PvP. If the PvP part is outstanding, then that should be mentioned in the review or some captions at place, to make sure the PvPers see it. But giving DF a rating based only because of it's PvP would be the same as rating LOTRO only according to it's landscapes.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Players are rejecting 'recently' released games? People play the games because of reviews? How did you find all that out?
All I understand is that you are illusioning yourself only and projecting your own values on others. That is so far from reality leaving nothing I can reply to.
Just one more point then I’ll leave this thread alone…promise
I am not a hardcore PvPer. In fact, other than a very short jaunt in Eve, Darkfall is my first true PvP game. I never played UO. Never played DAOC. I was a die-hard EQer who played that game from the first minute they opened up the servers up until a couple years ago. I then moved on to Vanguard which I thought was going to be my new home for the next decade. I even played that game for over a year before it’s failings and their slow move towards Wow-ifying the game drove me away.
So, at heart, I’m really a PvE person. I decided to give Darkfall a try because I just couldn’t stomach all the themepark games coming out all designed to play like WoW with lightning-fast experience curves, zero danger, people actually using death as a travel mechanic, no consequences for your actions and bling growing on trees etc. I understand a lot of people like those types of games but it just never got my juices flowing as everything felt watered down and meaningless.
So I decided to give a PvP game a chance, despite the bad reviews from sites such as MMORPG, because I wanted to play a game where I had to be careful, cautious as I moved around the world, a game with politics and meaning behind battles being won and lost, a game where death and failure stings a little which in turn brings more meaning to those successes you experience. Not to mention a game with real ship battles where you can bring a large battleship full of canons up the coast and start pounding a key coastal city to soften it up for your ground troops to eventually take it over. And by the way, watch out for the kraken or you could be toast before you ever reach that city! Also a game with more challenging PvE mobs that don’t just stand there while your avatar automatically swings his weapon pounding the dumb mob into oblivion (or Bolivia if you’re Mike Tyson, but I digress).
Anyway, I think there are a lot of people out there like me who are long-time PvE folks that are getting tired of the same mainstream games being made more and more casual that just don’t generate the excitement that the older (some would say harder) games used to. I think a lot of those people who are on the fence about something like Darkfall put a lot of weight on gamesite reviews as they try to find their next mmorpg fix.
And that is why fans of a game like Darkfall are so passionate about reviews being accurate, and not being influenced by whether or not the game is targeted at average WoW gamer. It’s not the current fans of Darkfall you are doing a disservice to (other than potentially harming the sub numbers) but the people out there like me who are looking for a mmorpg to play but are afraid to drop the cash on a game like Darkfall because websites catering to people who like WoW-style games give a game that is very different from WoW a bad rating. And yes, as I mentioned it is important to fans of the game because the health of the game depends on getting subs. Naturally anything that adversely impacts subs will get a strong reaction, especially if it is perceived as unfair which is obviously the case here.
Anyway, there you go. I don’t expect this to change anybody’s mind because the people who don’t like Darkfall will take whatever stance necessary to support their view of the game and the treatment they believe it deserves since it doesn’t cater to their playstyle. That’s just the way gaming message boards work unfortunately as people get to hide behind their anonymity and feel that they don’t really need to support their position with facts or sensical arguments.
I do, however, hope that this may make just a wee bit of sense to even a single person associated with mmorpg.com who may be in a position to do something about it. I doubt it, but hope is a good thing regardless.
Carry on
People play LOTRO mainly for PvE not for landscapes. You are not sending trashmetal fan to write a review of new britney spears album and how it appeals to "avarage joe music listener". Darkfall is FFA PvP full loot game and is made for people that like that. It's not made for people gathering epics, doing PvP ladder or instanced dungeons thus lack of this features should not in any way lowers overall score.
Score should tell target audience (PvP full loot player base) how game will fit their tastes. If you would send me to review WoW (and most likely half of current Darkfall player base) I would rate it around 3/10. I don't like WoW, I don't like instances, pointless PvP, scripted bosses and no penalty for loosing. So, WoW is 3/10 game? Hell no. It's really good for people with different taste. You can't please all players at once (look all those people bashing EVE which is imho best sandbox on market). The sooner mmorpg realizes that the better.
Players are rejecting 'recently' released games? People play the games because of reviews? How did you find all that out?
All I understand is that you are illusioning yourself only and projecting your own values on others. That is so far from reality leaving nothing I can reply to.
On the contrary, you look like the one out of touch with reality by giving your interpretation of what an average player rappresents which is out of sink what the reality is.
If you give a game a 9 and another a 6 and you have $50 in your pocket, it doesn't take a genius which game the player will buy.
It is also a fact that games who got high scores like WAR, Aion, AoC, CO and from next month STO had a shelf life of 1 or 2 months, before the majority of players abandoned the ship.
Just check how many server mergers those game had (and how fast), sign that unlike what the scores suggests, they hardly as good as reviewers want us to believe..................
So to people who are aware of how the industry is developing is pretty obvious the average player is not so "average", and should not be patronised by telling them what they are supposed to like.
Stradden I hope you are taking notes....your website's readers put forth some compelling arguments yes?
I was waffling back and forth; I could see both sides of the argument here... UNTIL I read this post.
Excellent analogy Loktofeit. This analogy, to me, makes Stradden's statement make sense.
So what you telling me is that if 1million people told you a poop andwhich tasted good youd eat it? i mean, it cant taste like poop if a large mass says it doesnt can it?
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
I disagree immensely.
Who decides what is niche? The market does, not a reviewer.
Darkfall is a different game, it is a subgenre of the MMO industry, in which case you cannot judge it with the same measures you use for games like WoW.
DF is still a niche because reviewers do not score the game for what it is, but for what they think it is, therefore people don't want to give it a go due to the mediocre scoring................that's why is still a niche.
And even if it was a niche, why is it right to underscore something which is aimed at some minorities?
Everyone who is joining DF now after months of wait because the bad reviews, cannot believe how far those reviews were from the real thing, and they praise the game all over the forums, I barely notice any bad reviews from new players nowadays (maybe your niche is not so small after all)
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Would you rate a Toyota better than a Jeep because they sell more, and the Jeep is only for a niche of lonely cowboys?
I think what you are implying is a bit naive John.
For this simple rule which you seems to support we have shocking reviews like Aion who scored a 9 and Darkfall who scored a 6.
And even with a score of 9 Aion bombed spectacularly, that's because players are less "average Joe" than you might think.
In the real world everything is rated within its market niche.
So Metallica are rated within the music/metal sphere, while Britney within the Music/Pop sphere ( MMORPG/sandboxPvP and MMORPG/themepark respectively in our case).
Jeep is compared to other offroads cars while toyota is matched against other family cars, and so on.
That's the way it works..................
I am amazed to discover that a site like MMORPG.com still do not understand that the MMORPG market is diversifying itself, like the single player games, music, and the movie industry, but pretty much like anything else in the real world..
Today saying this game is "just" a MMORPG is restrictive, today a MMORPG can be sandbox, themepark, PvP centric, PvE centric, Social, FPS, RTS, and I am sure many more subgenres will emerge.
It is time to acknowledge this.
If you cannot understand those basics, forget about reviewing games, because you are doing a disservice to your readers, and to the whole industry by promoting the same boring and unimaginative stuff coming from the big developers, while at the same time you are damaging all the small companies who try to bring something new to this industry.
In other words you are promoting mediocrity.
It may come as a surprise to you, but some gamers actually read the reviews and decide for themselves if the game is their cup of tea. Tell me something, if a reviewer said a game sucked because it had FFA full loot PvP, would you not play the game because the reviewer scored it a 6 because of that? If you have an sense, you'd likely buy that game, because the reviewer just confirmed it has a feature that you really enjoy. Just like you'd likely not play a game that scored a 8, because the reviewer thought the game was a lot of fun due to the 1000's of quests there are to do; assuming you don't like to quest grind.
My point is that the score isn't important, the review is. As long as a reviewer is being objective, a player can read it and decide for themselves that the game might not be for them. So I offer myself as proof that gamers don't pay attention to review scores, and instead pay more attention to the review itself. Not only that, but a review only has a small influence on whether or not a player will play a game. Other influences are marketing, how that business treats the consumers, population of the game, support, and how the players treat potential players. Don't forget, every player is a potential player, so when you're representing Darkfall and act like a jerk on the forums, it just drives people away from the game. In my opinion, the community that loves Darkfall ruined Darkfall, not a review score or a review. You can thank your fellow buddies for that and stop blaiming mmorpg.com.
I was waffling back and forth; I could see both sides of the argument here... UNTIL I read this post.
Excellent analogy Loktofeit. This analogy, to me, makes Stradden's statement make sense.
Trust me this is the wrong example.
We are talking about games that features vs features can outstrip the majority of themepark games here, yet they get a couple of points deducted just because the reviewer feel the average joe won't appreciate the gameplay.
On the other hand the games they score best, which supposedly has what the average joe is looking for, bomb after a couple of months.
Don't you think there is something wrong with this?
Read my other posts about the consequences of assuming what the average player likes.
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
It might come as a surprise to you but majority look only at the score, trust me
Yes I know it is wrong and personally I don't care about the score when I buy a game.............that's why I bought Darkfall.
But this is not the point.
Whether the score is important or not, this is not the real issue, the real issue is why not score the game for its quality (or lack of) rather than base their review thinking about how many people would buy it.
Why we should not assume what an average player might like? Read my previous posts to know the answer.
You can say that about any game. An editor has to draw the line somewhere. 1 month seems like a good line, since that's as long as any game has to convince the customer to take the plunge to subscribe.
Why I you trying to change Straddens opinion then?
Actually the majority of you are not offering compelling arguements at all. You are assuming that Straddens statement about Average Joe Gamer means, WoW and PvE guru's. He explained it wonderfully , they must review to the tastes of the majority of gamers.. period. Most gamers do both pve and pvp, what seems to be the sticking point for most of you is doing some pvp is not enough, you want a rabid pvp-god who will stack the cards in DF's favor... which is exactly the same thing as allowing someone who detests pvp to review the game.
That is failing to mention the point of using WoW's playerbase as a "majority rule" , considering most WoW players not only enjoy pve but also pvp.. which makes them more than adequate to base a review off.
The majority is something I dont agree with and I shall have my opinion heard. Dont like it dont answer - you are not going to change my opinion on this matter and neither is Stradden.
So considering you aren't going to listen to anyone regarding this issue, neither those in the community or those directly involved in the reviewing ; you are just going to stand on your podium and shout " Foul " over and over? Whats the point ... the issue isn't the way the reviewing is done at this point, the issue is with your( and others) understanding of it and assumptions on it.
I can tell you this, this site is based on reviewers that NEED hand holding carebear devs to help them, and cant figure anything out for themselves.
The reason why they gave it a low score is because, most of the people on this site are "Kids" who cant figure games out for themselves and need the real themepark( like wow) to tell them what to do, so if they give DFO a good score, and then a kid comes and say it was to hard and had no direction, they would get flamed, so they are doing what kids would do.
But they need to review it, a lot has changed. It will probably get reviewed by the same kid-carebear and will get a 6-7 again. Sandbox is a dying breed for the most part.
As usual, I could not agree with you more Kyleran. This goes to the very core of this sites review system, which has little credibility to many of the members here. This is not about any one score given here to any game, but about a better system of reading credible reviews that people can put some stock in. The review system on this site needs to be rethought out in my opinion. MMOs and the people who play them come in so many shapes and styles, that people have a right to know the perspectives and background of the people writing the reviews.
When someone clicks the reviews button at the top of this page, there should be an option to read the reviews written by members of this site, rated by members of this site. I hate to use gamespot as an example, but their system of reader reviews are a great measure of a game. You are able to browse through reviews written by their members, that are rated as helpful or bad. This enables someone seeking information about a game to get a wide range of viewpoints about the game they are reading on. If you still want to have a single staff member review, we need to know what their background is, and easy access to see how they scored other games. Aion people don't want to read reviews written by an EVE / Darkfall fan, and Darkfall and EVE fans don't want to read reviews written by someone who thinks Aion is the highest rated MMORPG of all time.
Who is Average Joe anyways? Is it someone who likes theme park games? Or is it someone who like many fans of this genre are absolutely disgusted to the core with the way this genre has been cranking out shallow and linear games that have people quitting in under 60 days? It's all a matter of perspective again, and for a site as central as this one, I think people should have it.
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Why I you trying to change Straddens opinion then?
Because it is my right of free speech while I dont break the terms of service on this website.
If subscriber drops after release is the only fact your assumptions are based on, I have to disappoint you since this is very natural and common appereance in business practice.
Given the number of self-submitted user reviews in any game's forums, I think this is a pretty good idea. Once you get into the rating as "helpful" or "bad" you still get the potential for abuse that any rating system is open to, but I imagine that could be mitigated. What better way to serve the site community then to consider community generated content as something useful?
It'd be nice to see the review tab of a game split into staff review and reader reviews and let people take it from there. Could be really interesting to see where that idea would go. People would still complain about the staff review, but thats why they would be there right? :P That said, I tend to put more stock in what a sampling of players have to say then what a single review might say, so the player submitted reviews would be a great addition.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence