Time for a re-review of Darkfall guys, and get someone competent to do this (aka a PVPer)
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
I disagree immensely.
Who decides what is niche? The market does, not a reviewer.
Darkfall is a different game, it is a subgenre of the MMO industry, in which case you cannot judge it with the same measures you use for games like WoW.
DF is still a niche because reviewers do not score the game for what it is, but for what they think it is, therefore people don't want to give it a go due to the mediocre scoring................that's why is still a niche.
And even if it was a niche, why is it right to underscore something which is aimed at some minorities?
Everyone who is joining DF now after months of wait because the bad reviews, cannot believe how far those reviews were from the real thing, and they praise the game all over the forums, I barely notice any bad reviews from new players nowadays (maybe your niche is not so small after all)
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Would you rate a Toyota better than a Jeep because they sell more, and the Jeep is only for a niche of lonely cowboys?
I think what you are implying is a bit naive John.
For this simple rule which you seems to support we have shocking reviews like Aion who scored a 9 and Darkfall who scored a 6.
And even with a score of 9 Aion bombed spectacularly, that's because players are less "average Joe" than you might think.
In the real world everything is rated within its market niche.
So Metallica are rated within the music/metal sphere, while Britney within the Music/Pop sphere ( MMORPG/sandboxPvP and MMORPG/themepark respectively in our case).
Jeep is compared to other offroads cars while toyota is matched against other family cars, and so on.
That's the way it works..................
I am amazed to discover that a site like MMORPG.com still do not understand that the MMORPG market is diversifying itself, like the single player games, music, and the movie industry, but pretty much like anything else in the real world..
Today saying this game is "just" a MMORPG is restrictive, today a MMORPG can be sandbox, themepark, PvP centric, PvE centric, Social, FPS, RTS, and I am sure many more subgenres will emerge.
It is time to acknowledge this.
If you cannot understand those basics, forget about reviewing games, because you are doing a disservice to your readers, and to the whole industry by promoting the same boring and unimaginative stuff coming from the big developers, while at the same time you are damaging all the small companies who try to bring something new to this industry.
Honestly, it was YouTube and player made vids that primarily influenced my decision to purchase Darkfall. Second to that were player reviews of all stripes. I attribute very little to MMORPG's reviews, though I do read them. Why? Because it is a single person's perspective, colored by their personal preferences (as opposed to the scores of player reviews). Further, it is their job, and as everyone who has ever worked a day in their life, jobs imply obligation. Obligation breeds resentment. Resentment breeds laziness. As a general rule, of course.
Originally posted by Stradden Reviews are very subjective things.
Review CAN be very subjective thing. Rating is ALWAYS subjective.
When I read a review, I want to get some information and that usualy does not include reviewers opinion.
That is a good review in my book. Bold description of game mechanics, content and features. If you want to add some subjective opinion, add it in last paragraph but in no way review should be subjective, imo.
Honestly, it was YouTube and player made vids that primarily influenced my decision to purchase Darkfall. Second to that were player reviews of all stripes. I attribute very little to MMORPG's reviews, though I do read them. Why? Because it is a single person's perspective, colored by their personal preferences (as opposed to the scores of player reviews). Further, it is their job, and as everyone who has ever worked a day in their life, jobs imply obligation. Obligation breeds resentment. Resentment breeds laziness. As a general rule, of course. YouTube ftw. -tal
I agree with this.
But my point was that they were willingly underscoring Darkfall because the "average Joe" might not like it, not because the game was objectively crap.
It is like saying that the Jeep Wrangler is a bad car because the "average family" wouldn't buy it anyway................
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Sure I would.
Stradden is pretty much right on what he is saying. The review is not read only by people DF was aiming at and as such, they reflect this into a scoring.
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way... qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.
What this guy said. If this was a sight aimed at "hardcore" PVPers I would agree that it would likely be in the sites best interests to have a "hardcore" PVPer review the game. But it isn't, so its not. And its not like this guy had no pvp experience, or even hardcore pvp experience as Stradden noted in his comment, but most seemed to have ignored that.
Honestly, it was YouTube and player made vids that primarily influenced my decision to purchase Darkfall. Second to that were player reviews of all stripes. I attribute very little to MMORPG's reviews, though I do read them. Why? Because it is a single person's perspective, colored by their personal preferences (as opposed to the scores of player reviews). Further, it is their job, and as everyone who has ever worked a day in their life, jobs imply obligation. Obligation breeds resentment. Resentment breeds laziness. As a general rule, of course. YouTube ftw. -tal
I agree with this.
But my point was that they were willingly underscoring Darkfall because the "average Joe" might not like it, not because the game was objectively crap.
It is like saying that the Jeep Wrangler is a bad car because the "average family" wouldn't buy it anyway................
This is not just about personal taste.
Oh, I understand and agree with you. I notice MMORPG reviews tend to use the kid gloves (STO Review, anyone?) which supports your idea since, in my opinion, STO was churned out for some marketer's definition of "average Joe Gamer".
It is hard to divine motivations here. I think all we can do is notice trends in individual MMORPG author's reviews, and from that, claim biases from the collective whole of all reviews, and from this site in general. So is the solution to have a PvPer review PvP-centric games? Possibly. But then we'd have the same problem, just on the other side of the fence, so to speak.
For me, the best solution was to read, view, and digest ALL available media, understand the biases involved (paid, fanboi, hater, etc) and see fi that game fits into your personal sphere of life commitments. I hope that most people do this, but without knowing I cannot comment on the level of influence sites like these exert.
Originally posted by bluebawles So are you telling me that an alpha version of a clone of WoW that constantly crashes, plenty of bugs and 1/4 the content WoW had at release received almost the same score as Darkfall Online (6.0)?
I mean even at the time of the DF review it had a solid game engine, did not crash, very very few bugs, the graphics were/are much better, the features:
Sorry I just HAD to LOL
Your just so wrong about both games here its almost impossible to beleive that you are a genuine person or that you genuinly beleive what you've typed here.
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Sure I would.
Stradden is pretty much right on what he is saying. The review is not read only by people DF was aiming at and as such, they reflect this into a scoring.
That is no problem at all.
That's because it is your opinion, and you don't like Metallica (me neither, but I rate them better than Britney for sure), which is fair enough............but it is not the point.
You don't like the genre all together (Metal) so everything that comes from that niche is bad for you...............regardeless the quality of the product itself.
But you are a free person not a reviewer, which should base its judgement more on firm objective points and fewer subjective ones.
Now, if this site was dedicated only to mainstream theme park MMO, your argument kinda make sense.
But this site is called MMORPG.com not ThemeparkMMORPG.com
Unless they willingly decide they want to just take care of "Average Joe" players who only play Theme Park games, they should tutelate other players who play other subgenres of MMOs too.
But if you gonna make a review, you need to score it on the quality of the product itself not on the question if the game is mainstream enough or not.
That's just not professional and it is unfair on many players who due to the harsh reviews of some games (not only Darkfall), they will never give a try to those game, even if in reality they might enjoy them.
As long as an average joe don't feel good in game Darkfall has it right
Average joes can play his average games to satisfy his average needs.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Finding a reviewer for the 2010 version of Darkfall who
a) is solidly in the PvP Sandbox game camp, and
b) capable of maintaining a neutral perspective
is a mighty small pool of people to pick from.
If you can't resist including comments like "no hand-holding in this game" you are DQ'd. And that's a small-fry insult most people who use it type almost reflexively when discussing PvP games.
No, finding someone who can write a review to "your" level of satisfaction, while holding the middle ground in general for the review, is a tiny percentage to choose from.
Here's the true disincentive for that, even *if* a writer who can hold that delicate balance is found: They will be SAVAGED for the review by the very people demanding a proper perspective from the writer! Because you folks hounding MMORPG for a "better" review WANT a biased one in your favor - and you'll tear up this guy as a sellout or a closet Carebear if he does pull off a neutral review. Why bother writing it in the first place?
(One smart person could suggest a lack of neutral perspective in nearly ANY review nowadays, simply from money or influence. I can only nod sadly at that suggestion)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Unless they willingly decide they want to just take care of "Average Joe" players who only play Theme Park games, they should tutelate other players who play other subgenres of MMOs too.
You are missing the point here, not me or Stradden.
The rating works like this:
If any MMORPG.COM reader comes along the article, the rating is kind of supposed to tell him wheter he might lik ethe game or not, and this reader is 'average Joe' so it is very much OK to make rating focused towards general playerbase.
Everytime you write something, you need to bear a reader in mind and adjust the writing accordingly, same goes with MMORPG.COM rating.
It is not unproffesional, it is a one way how to rate/make reviews. You might not like it but that is where it ends.
EDIT:
Doh, almost missed this gem:
Originally posted by ste2000 But you are a free person not a reviewer, which should base its judgement more on firm objective points and fewer subjective ones.
Seems like you are the only person who knows what 'objective points' are which sort of defeating the objectivity in principle...
As long as an average joe don't feel good in game Darkfall has it right Average joes can play his average games to satisfy his average needs.
The elitist attitude of the community; this is the reason many people will not give Darkfall a try. It has nothing to do with a "negative" review on a game site.
Some Darkfall players are under the illusion they are somehow a "cut above" or "superior" to other gamers because of the game they play. Get over yourselves. You like your game, other people like other types of games... at the end of the day they are just GAMES, nothing more.
BTW, you are not owed or entitled to another review of your game by this site or any site. If and when mmorpg.com decided to re-review Darkfall, they will do it using the guidelines they see fit. You can agree with it or not, your choice but please stop QQing about it. Don't like how this site "treats" your game? Stop coming here and find a new site. I, for one, won't miss you...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
If Chess Online came out, it would probably get a really crappy score.
The lobby system, all the instancing and how the ladder is dominated by seasoned veterans.
The issues with it would probably be
- a lack of a PvE element
- no auction house
- no housing
- no plans to add new pieces in future expansions
- limited game world
- no casting or ranged classes
For those who specifically like an arena to test one's personal skill against another in a strategic game, Chess Online is probably an amazing game. Chess itself is an amazing game - it is a classic that has stood the test of time far longer than most games.
As an MMO, it's a piece of crap that Joe MMO Gamer would consider unpolished and boring. As an MMO, it would probably get a score of 4.0 out of 10 or less.
"How can you rate Chess a 4 out of 10? The PvP is great! The combat is balanced! WTF?"
Rating Chess Online a 10.0 because of the solid design of its PvP element doesn't offer an accurate score for the average gamer. The average gamer would seriously wonder how such an incomplete and limited game would even get half that score.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Seriously, if you like the game, what fucking difference does it make what some site thinks? jeez. Spend more time actually playing the game and less time wanking around and complaining about gaming sites.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way... qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.
What this guy said. If this was a sight aimed at "hardcore" PVPers I would agree that it would likely be in the sites best interests to have a "hardcore" PVPer review the game. But it isn't, so its not. And its not like this guy had no pvp experience, or even hardcore pvp experience as Stradden noted in his comment, but most seemed to have ignored that.
No one in their right mind is asking for someone who specifically plays hardcore style PvP games to review Darkfall as hardcore is yet another purely subjective term. You're right in the respect that this site isn't designed for any one niche of gaming, it's designed for all MMO types and styles.
That being said, to ignore a game targeting a specific niche or game style and have the mentioned "Joe Average" review it would be nothing more than a disservice to the game and the community. That term irritates me and I believe it's due to the fact that "Joe Average" is equated to "WoW casual style player" as if that is or should be the norm in this genre. A genre that exists due to diversity and innovation.
Unless they willingly decide they want to just take care of "Average Joe" players who only play Theme Park games, they should tutelate other players who play other subgenres of MMOs too.
You are missing the point here, not me or Stradden.
The rating works like this:
If any MMORPG.COM reader comes along the article, the rating is kind of supposed to tell him wheter he might lik ethe game or not, and this reader is 'average Joe' so it is very much OK to make rating focused towards general playerbase.
Everytime you write something, you need to bear a reader in mind and adjust the writing accordingly, same goes with MMORPG.COM rating.
It is not unproffesional, it is a one way how to rate/make reviews. You might not like it but that is where it ends.
I know exactly what you are trying to say.
You are describing a lazy approach to reviewing: "let's promote things even monkeys can play"
To me this approach is ok in amatorial websites not on MMORPG.com (it is a compliment I am doing to this site)
But the point you keep missing is that it is not up to you, Stradden or any reviewer to say what "average joe" likes...............get my point?
MMO industry is evolving and it is creating many subgenres which the "average joe" still don't know.
Hiding those new genres to the "average joe" by giving them lower scores because the reviewer decided they won't like it, means that those players might miss something they could enjoy.
If you read any recent player review about Darkfall, you will discover there are plenty of those famous "average Joe" who never tried the game before because the bad score websites such as this one gave to it.
But after watching many Youtube videos and lots of player made reviews, they bought the game and actually liked it (surprise surprise)
So if a potential player have to go through all that before deciding to buy a game because the review has been too biased (against the genre), do you think MMORPG is doing a good service toward that player?
Don't you think that the whole point of a review is to avoid a player all of this hassle, not making it more difficult to take a decision?
So long story short, do not assume what the "average joe" likes based on your personal taste, this is not the right way to approach a review, this is an amateurish way to do a review (any "average joe" can do reviews like this, just to stay in theme).
Now if MMORPG accept this kind of approach (which is legitimate btw) towards reviews, that means that this site is not as professional as I thought.
Still, it is a legitimate way to go, but at least Stradden should not argue over the credibility of this site reviews, as if it was a normal way to approach reviews this way, because it is not.
To look at it another way, the MMORPG.com score is higher then both Eurogamer reviews. That's something positive...sort of. But really, for a community that claims care bears can't handle full-loot, hardcore, superseriousstuff....isn't whining about a score a bit contradictory? If your goal is to turn people on to the game by showing it in a good light, this doesn't seem like the most effective route to take.
Back to the Eurogamer reference though; I think any one site is going to review the game from the perspective of a bulk of their readership. If you want to look at a bigger picture, then something like Metacritic, which shows a user 6.7 score and lists sites that have reviewed the game, might be a better place to start. It might even point you to a site that clearly caters to the same niche this game targets.
Ultimately, the fans and detractors alike have acknowledged this game is targeted to a niche market. As such, it should be expected that it won't get rave reviews. That's part of the nature of being in a niche. To paraphrase what someone else said, if you are enjoying the game, and it continues to grow and evolve, isn't that good enough? With that in mind, why are you here complaining and not playing
edit: corrected a couple things.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
But the point you keep missing is that it is not up to you, Stradden or any reviewer to say what "average joe" likes...............get my point?
As you said yourself, it is the market deciding what is so called niche or not.
WoW and the clones have millions of subscribers, let alone WoW taking more than 50% of western MMO market. Asian market which is probably much bigger, consisting of pretty much only 'monkeys can play' games so I guess it is not that difficult to say what those 'average Joes' like... and that has nothing to do with personal preference.
How other people look at and read reviews I dont' know nor I care thus provided 'service' is just a matter of taste.
Finding someone to rereview this game fully will be extremely difficult. Spending 30 hours is simply not enough time given how long it takes to experiences all the aspects of this game. At the same time you need to find a reviewer who is open to the idea of an open ended style game, not adverse to PvP, and has the right amount of balance. I've played this game literally off and on for a year, and there still new things aspects of the game I get exposed to. Aside from whatever the game mechanics are, there is an entire meta game with politics that goes on in vent servers and on the forums. Even if a new reviewer was going to start playing today, I don't see how they could experience all of the various parts of the game and write about it for at least a few months.
Ultimately, the fans and detractors alike have acknowledged this game is targeted to a niche market. As such, it should be expected that it won't get rave reviews. That's part of the nature of being in a niche. To paraphrase what someone else said, if you are enjoying the game, and it continues to grow and evolve, isn't that good enough? With that in mind, why are you here complaining and not playing edit: corrected a couple things.
So a niche game means it is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to the average gamer?
Do some of you people even think about what you are typing before you hit "post message"?
/facepalm
thank god other genres and forms of entertainment don't follow this ridiculous philosophy. I shudder to think where we would be if, in every form of entertainment, anything that wasn't mainstream got bad reviews. Honest to God i cannot comprehend how a thinking, "non special needs" human being can ever think this philosophy is a good thing no matter whether you are joe average gamer or a pvper or anything else for that matter. I understand people will take whatever stance tends to support their own biased view of a game but this discussion goes way beyond that.
Finding someone to rereview this game fully will be extremely difficult. Spending 30 hours is simply not enough time given how long it takes to experiences all the aspects of this game. At the same time you need to find a reviewer who is open to the idea of an open ended style game, not adverse to PvP, and has the right amount of balance. I've played this game literally off and on for a year, and there still new things aspects of the game I get exposed to. Aside from whatever the game mechanics are, there is an entire meta game with politics that goes on in vent servers and on the forums. Even if a new reviewer was going to start playing today, I don't see how they could experience all of the various parts of the game and write about it for at least a few months.
Paragus, i don't think anyone is asking for a reviewer to spend 30 hours in the game to review it. We're just asking that someone who actually enjoys this style of game review it. That person is not going to be Joe Average Gamer (who the editor of this site said they tailor all their reviews at and games will be penalized accordingly if they don't target the average gamer). Their are plenty of relevant, apt analogies in this thread on why that is just a dumb, nonsensical review philosophy.
So a niche game means it is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to the average gamer? Do some of you people even think about what you are typing before you hit "post message"? /facepalm thank god other genres and forms of entertainment don't follow this ridiculous philosophy. I shudder to think where we would be if, in every form of entertainment, anything that wasn't mainstream got bad reviews. Honest to God i cannot comprehend how a thinking, "non special needs" human being can ever think this philosophy is a good thing no matter whether you are joe average gamer or a pvper or anything else for that matter. I understand people will take whatever stance tends to support their own biased view of a game but this discussion goes way beyond that.
Did I say the game was bad?
Do some of you even read before hitting reply?
/facepalm
As has been pointed out, this site will cater to a certain audience and the reviews reflect that. Good or bad, the game will not get a rave review, on this site, as a result. That's just the way it is. As I pointed out, a site like Metacritic could help you find a different site that is more in line with your tastes. It's really pretty simple, but if you want to find drama in that, knock yourself out.
edit: To speak to your second paragraph, there are great films (As an example) don't get mainstream attention, but are successful in their own right. Many times, the director, writer, and actors aren't making the movie under the impression it is going to compete with something like Avatar (as a recent example). Their audience is defined, their resources likely modest, but they target their niche and succeed in it. They expect a New York Times review and generally that's ok with them.
This can easily translate to games, and as I pointed out, the niche value of this game is not some sort of state secret. As such, regardless of anyone's personal taste for it, a mainstream site, if they review, would not stand much chance of reviewing the product to the depth that the niche audience could appreciate. A likely side effect is a score that is lower then that niche audience would have given it. I certainly don't think that logic advances any personal agenda about this game, but we'll each believe what you want on that I'm sure.
edit: typos typos typos
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Paragus, i don't think anyone is asking for a reviewer to spend 30 hours in the game to review it. We're just asking that someone who actually enjoys this style of game review it. That person is not going to be Joe Average Gamer (who the editor of this site said they tailor all their reviews at and games will be penalized accordingly if they don't target the average gamer). Their are plenty of relevant, apt analogies in this thread on why that is just a dumb, nonsensical review philosophy.
Oh I definitely agree with you. I use the 30 hour thing because I know it is the standard that this site and some others use to give official reviews of MMOs. This is in part why I think the Aion review on this site was very misleading. 30 hours into Aion, the game still has content, the grind is manageable, and the flaws in the Abyss are not really apparent. It wasn't until the mid range of the game that most people saw content dry up, the grind go up exponentially, and the core if their conquest system was flawed. That was a theme park, in a more sandboxy type game it requires even more time and the drive to go seek out the various aspects of the game because they aren't fed to you in the same manner. I said it before and I'll say it again, Darkfall is not for everyone, so it can't be given a fair review by the average Joe as you call it.
So a niche game means it is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to the average gamer? Do some of you people even think about what you are typing before you hit "post message"? /facepalm thank god other genres and forms of entertainment don't follow this ridiculous philosophy. I shudder to think where we would be if, in every form of entertainment, anything that wasn't mainstream got bad reviews. Honest to God i cannot comprehend how a thinking, "non special needs" human being can ever think this philosophy is a good thing no matter whether you are joe average gamer or a pvper or anything else for that matter. I understand people will take whatever stance tends to support their own biased view of a game but this discussion goes way beyond that.
Did I say the game was bad?
Do some of you even read before hitting reply?
/facepalm
As has been pointed out, this site will cater to a certain audience and the reviews reflect that. Good or bad, the game will not get a rave review as a result. That's just the way it is. As I pointed out, a site like Metacritic could help you find a different site that is more in line with your tastes. It's really pretty simple, but if you want to find drama in that, knock yourself out.
You're now arguing semantics instead of the point of your post, which is what people do when they know they are losing a debate.
The point of your post was that a review of a game will be adversely impacted (ie won't get "rave reviews") solely because it does not target the average gamer. And yes, it is a pretty "simple" philosophy. That i agree with.
This site does cater to a certain audience. Those that like mmorpgs. I was not aware up to this point that it only catered to those who like WoW (joe average gamer).
Comments
Ok, there are a few things wrong here, and I'm going to do my best to clear things up.
First of all, the section of your post I have quoted really gets to the heart of the problem. When we review and score a game, we have to look at it from the perspective of "joe average gamer" and while the text of the reviews often reflect the fact that a game may have been developed with a niche audience in mind, the score has to take into account the tastes of the average.
I disagree immensely.
Who decides what is niche? The market does, not a reviewer.
Darkfall is a different game, it is a subgenre of the MMO industry, in which case you cannot judge it with the same measures you use for games like WoW.
DF is still a niche because reviewers do not score the game for what it is, but for what they think it is, therefore people don't want to give it a go due to the mediocre scoring................that's why is still a niche.
And even if it was a niche, why is it right to underscore something which is aimed at some minorities?
Everyone who is joining DF now after months of wait because the bad reviews, cannot believe how far those reviews were from the real thing, and they praise the game all over the forums, I barely notice any bad reviews from new players nowadays (maybe your niche is not so small after all)
Would you say that Britney Spears is a better artist/musician than Metallica just because she sells 10 times more records and the "average Joe" will go for her rather than the "noisy" ones?
Would you rate a Toyota better than a Jeep because they sell more, and the Jeep is only for a niche of lonely cowboys?
I think what you are implying is a bit naive John.
For this simple rule which you seems to support we have shocking reviews like Aion who scored a 9 and Darkfall who scored a 6.
And even with a score of 9 Aion bombed spectacularly, that's because players are less "average Joe" than you might think.
In the real world everything is rated within its market niche.
So Metallica are rated within the music/metal sphere, while Britney within the Music/Pop sphere ( MMORPG/sandboxPvP and MMORPG/themepark respectively in our case).
Jeep is compared to other offroads cars while toyota is matched against other family cars, and so on.
That's the way it works..................
I am amazed to discover that a site like MMORPG.com still do not understand that the MMORPG market is diversifying itself, like the single player games, music, and the movie industry, but pretty much like anything else in the real world..
Today saying this game is "just" a MMORPG is restrictive, today a MMORPG can be sandbox, themepark, PvP centric, PvE centric, Social, FPS, RTS, and I am sure many more subgenres will emerge.
It is time to acknowledge this.
If you cannot understand those basics, forget about reviewing games, because you are doing a disservice to your readers, and to the whole industry by promoting the same boring and unimaginative stuff coming from the big developers, while at the same time you are damaging all the small companies who try to bring something new to this industry.
In other words you are promoting mediocrity.
Honestly, it was YouTube and player made vids that primarily influenced my decision to purchase Darkfall. Second to that were player reviews of all stripes. I attribute very little to MMORPG's reviews, though I do read them. Why? Because it is a single person's perspective, colored by their personal preferences (as opposed to the scores of player reviews). Further, it is their job, and as everyone who has ever worked a day in their life, jobs imply obligation. Obligation breeds resentment. Resentment breeds laziness. As a general rule, of course.
YouTube ftw.
-tal
Review CAN be very subjective thing. Rating is ALWAYS subjective.
When I read a review, I want to get some information and that usualy does not include reviewers opinion.
That is a good review in my book. Bold description of game mechanics, content and features. If you want to add some subjective opinion, add it in last paragraph but in no way review should be subjective, imo.
I agree with this.
But my point was that they were willingly underscoring Darkfall because the "average Joe" might not like it, not because the game was objectively crap.
It is like saying that the Jeep Wrangler is a bad car because the "average family" wouldn't buy it anyway................
This is not just about personal taste.
Sure I would.
Stradden is pretty much right on what he is saying. The review is not read only by people DF was aiming at and as such, they reflect this into a scoring.
That is no problem at all.
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way...
qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.
What this guy said. If this was a sight aimed at "hardcore" PVPers I would agree that it would likely be in the sites best interests to have a "hardcore" PVPer review the game. But it isn't, so its not. And its not like this guy had no pvp experience, or even hardcore pvp experience as Stradden noted in his comment, but most seemed to have ignored that.
I agree with this.
But my point was that they were willingly underscoring Darkfall because the "average Joe" might not like it, not because the game was objectively crap.
It is like saying that the Jeep Wrangler is a bad car because the "average family" wouldn't buy it anyway................
This is not just about personal taste.
Oh, I understand and agree with you. I notice MMORPG reviews tend to use the kid gloves (STO Review, anyone?) which supports your idea since, in my opinion, STO was churned out for some marketer's definition of "average Joe Gamer".
It is hard to divine motivations here. I think all we can do is notice trends in individual MMORPG author's reviews, and from that, claim biases from the collective whole of all reviews, and from this site in general. So is the solution to have a PvPer review PvP-centric games? Possibly. But then we'd have the same problem, just on the other side of the fence, so to speak.
For me, the best solution was to read, view, and digest ALL available media, understand the biases involved (paid, fanboi, hater, etc) and see fi that game fits into your personal sphere of life commitments. I hope that most people do this, but without knowing I cannot comment on the level of influence sites like these exert.
Sorry I just HAD to LOL
Your just so wrong about both games here its almost impossible to beleive that you are a genuine person or that you genuinly beleive what you've typed here.
Sure I would.
Stradden is pretty much right on what he is saying. The review is not read only by people DF was aiming at and as such, they reflect this into a scoring.
That is no problem at all.
That's because it is your opinion, and you don't like Metallica (me neither, but I rate them better than Britney for sure), which is fair enough............but it is not the point.
You don't like the genre all together (Metal) so everything that comes from that niche is bad for you...............regardeless the quality of the product itself.
But you are a free person not a reviewer, which should base its judgement more on firm objective points and fewer subjective ones.
Now, if this site was dedicated only to mainstream theme park MMO, your argument kinda make sense.
But this site is called MMORPG.com not ThemeparkMMORPG.com
Unless they willingly decide they want to just take care of "Average Joe" players who only play Theme Park games, they should tutelate other players who play other subgenres of MMOs too.
But if you gonna make a review, you need to score it on the quality of the product itself not on the question if the game is mainstream enough or not.
That's just not professional and it is unfair on many players who due to the harsh reviews of some games (not only Darkfall), they will never give a try to those game, even if in reality they might enjoy them.
As long as an average joe don't feel good in game Darkfall has it right
Average joes can play his average games to satisfy his average needs.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Finding a reviewer for the 2010 version of Darkfall who
a) is solidly in the PvP Sandbox game camp, and
b) capable of maintaining a neutral perspective
is a mighty small pool of people to pick from.
If you can't resist including comments like "no hand-holding in this game" you are DQ'd. And that's a small-fry insult most people who use it type almost reflexively when discussing PvP games.
No, finding someone who can write a review to "your" level of satisfaction, while holding the middle ground in general for the review, is a tiny percentage to choose from.
Here's the true disincentive for that, even *if* a writer who can hold that delicate balance is found: They will be SAVAGED for the review by the very people demanding a proper perspective from the writer! Because you folks hounding MMORPG for a "better" review WANT a biased one in your favor - and you'll tear up this guy as a sellout or a closet Carebear if he does pull off a neutral review. Why bother writing it in the first place?
(One smart person could suggest a lack of neutral perspective in nearly ANY review nowadays, simply from money or influence. I can only nod sadly at that suggestion)
Avatars are people too
.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are missing the point here, not me or Stradden.
The rating works like this:
If any MMORPG.COM reader comes along the article, the rating is kind of supposed to tell him wheter he might lik ethe game or not, and this reader is 'average Joe' so it is very much OK to make rating focused towards general playerbase.
Everytime you write something, you need to bear a reader in mind and adjust the writing accordingly, same goes with MMORPG.COM rating.
It is not unproffesional, it is a one way how to rate/make reviews. You might not like it but that is where it ends.
EDIT:
Doh, almost missed this gem:
Seems like you are the only person who knows what 'objective points' are which sort of defeating the objectivity in principle...
The elitist attitude of the community; this is the reason many people will not give Darkfall a try. It has nothing to do with a "negative" review on a game site.
Some Darkfall players are under the illusion they are somehow a "cut above" or "superior" to other gamers because of the game they play. Get over yourselves. You like your game, other people like other types of games... at the end of the day they are just GAMES, nothing more.
BTW, you are not owed or entitled to another review of your game by this site or any site. If and when mmorpg.com decided to re-review Darkfall, they will do it using the guidelines they see fit. You can agree with it or not, your choice but please stop QQing about it. Don't like how this site "treats" your game? Stop coming here and find a new site. I, for one, won't miss you...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
If Chess Online came out, it would probably get a really crappy score.
The lobby system, all the instancing and how the ladder is dominated by seasoned veterans.
The issues with it would probably be
- a lack of a PvE element
- no auction house
- no housing
- no plans to add new pieces in future expansions
- limited game world
- no casting or ranged classes
For those who specifically like an arena to test one's personal skill against another in a strategic game, Chess Online is probably an amazing game. Chess itself is an amazing game - it is a classic that has stood the test of time far longer than most games.
As an MMO, it's a piece of crap that Joe MMO Gamer would consider unpolished and boring. As an MMO, it would probably get a score of 4.0 out of 10 or less.
"How can you rate Chess a 4 out of 10? The PvP is great! The combat is balanced! WTF?"
Rating Chess Online a 10.0 because of the solid design of its PvP element doesn't offer an accurate score for the average gamer. The average gamer would seriously wonder how such an incomplete and limited game would even get half that score.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is going to be kind of complicated, and I’m kind of going out on a limb here but just stay with me on this for a second:
Maybe people who like the game want the game to do well? Maybe they realize that for the game to do well subs are of vital importance to keep the revenue flowing and the updates and improvements to the game coming?
And if you can take that leap of faith above…
maybe people also realize that large gaming sites, much like this one, actually have an influence on sub numbers due to the reviews on sites such as these that so many people, specifically those “on the fence”, consider before signing up for that oh so critical sub that will keep said revenue flowing along with the aforementioned updates and improvements to the game, not to mention the positive impact it would have on the health of the in-game economy, politics etc. which in turn makes the game that much better, which in turn would draw in more subs? It’s like a circle see…
So, if you’ve gotten this far and considered my somewhat far-fetched points above, maybe you can see why the topic of undeserved bad reviews on large gaming sites are such a hotly debated issue.
Now throw into the mix that the managing editor of this site has essentially admitted that if a game isn’t targeted for the simple-minded lowest common denominator mass-market gamers out there then it will get a bad review…take all that together, think about it for a while, and maybe it will occur to you in a flash of brilliance why fans of a certain game care so much about getting a re-review.
Or, it could all be a clever scheme by a select, secret society of Darkfall fanbots to destroy all carebears.
You be the judge.
what....logic....no way...
qft
errrrr.. logic? Ok, let's try it your way and let each game be reviewed by a fan of said game. Hmm problem. The point is this site caters to a wide demographic of MMO players as MMO's come in many shapes and sizes. This site would not be any use if they didn't have to try and relay their opinion of a game whilst aiming towards the centre ground.
Thing is, this is not akin to a fast car magazine or a superbike review site, think of it as an all round car/bike magazine. Yes an Audi R8 might be a great car ~ but it's no good for day to day life of the average consumer. But the reader is intelligent enough to be able to discern the points they are looking for.
You do the reviewers, and the site, a disservice by suggesting that each review should be tailored to the fans of that style of game. You also underestimate peoples own ability to judge what they do and don't like in a game.
What this guy said. If this was a sight aimed at "hardcore" PVPers I would agree that it would likely be in the sites best interests to have a "hardcore" PVPer review the game. But it isn't, so its not. And its not like this guy had no pvp experience, or even hardcore pvp experience as Stradden noted in his comment, but most seemed to have ignored that.
No one in their right mind is asking for someone who specifically plays hardcore style PvP games to review Darkfall as hardcore is yet another purely subjective term. You're right in the respect that this site isn't designed for any one niche of gaming, it's designed for all MMO types and styles.
That being said, to ignore a game targeting a specific niche or game style and have the mentioned "Joe Average" review it would be nothing more than a disservice to the game and the community. That term irritates me and I believe it's due to the fact that "Joe Average" is equated to "WoW casual style player" as if that is or should be the norm in this genre. A genre that exists due to diversity and innovation.
You are missing the point here, not me or Stradden.
The rating works like this:
If any MMORPG.COM reader comes along the article, the rating is kind of supposed to tell him wheter he might lik ethe game or not, and this reader is 'average Joe' so it is very much OK to make rating focused towards general playerbase.
Everytime you write something, you need to bear a reader in mind and adjust the writing accordingly, same goes with MMORPG.COM rating.
It is not unproffesional, it is a one way how to rate/make reviews. You might not like it but that is where it ends.
I know exactly what you are trying to say.
You are describing a lazy approach to reviewing: "let's promote things even monkeys can play"
To me this approach is ok in amatorial websites not on MMORPG.com (it is a compliment I am doing to this site)
But the point you keep missing is that it is not up to you, Stradden or any reviewer to say what "average joe" likes...............get my point?
MMO industry is evolving and it is creating many subgenres which the "average joe" still don't know.
Hiding those new genres to the "average joe" by giving them lower scores because the reviewer decided they won't like it, means that those players might miss something they could enjoy.
If you read any recent player review about Darkfall, you will discover there are plenty of those famous "average Joe" who never tried the game before because the bad score websites such as this one gave to it.
But after watching many Youtube videos and lots of player made reviews, they bought the game and actually liked it (surprise surprise)
So if a potential player have to go through all that before deciding to buy a game because the review has been too biased (against the genre), do you think MMORPG is doing a good service toward that player?
Don't you think that the whole point of a review is to avoid a player all of this hassle, not making it more difficult to take a decision?
So long story short, do not assume what the "average joe" likes based on your personal taste, this is not the right way to approach a review, this is an amateurish way to do a review (any "average joe" can do reviews like this, just to stay in theme).
Now if MMORPG accept this kind of approach (which is legitimate btw) towards reviews, that means that this site is not as professional as I thought.
Still, it is a legitimate way to go, but at least Stradden should not argue over the credibility of this site reviews, as if it was a normal way to approach reviews this way, because it is not.
Simple as that.
To look at it another way, the MMORPG.com score is higher then both Eurogamer reviews. That's something positive...sort of. But really, for a community that claims care bears can't handle full-loot, hardcore, superseriousstuff....isn't whining about a score a bit contradictory? If your goal is to turn people on to the game by showing it in a good light, this doesn't seem like the most effective route to take.
Back to the Eurogamer reference though; I think any one site is going to review the game from the perspective of a bulk of their readership. If you want to look at a bigger picture, then something like Metacritic, which shows a user 6.7 score and lists sites that have reviewed the game, might be a better place to start. It might even point you to a site that clearly caters to the same niche this game targets.
Ultimately, the fans and detractors alike have acknowledged this game is targeted to a niche market. As such, it should be expected that it won't get rave reviews. That's part of the nature of being in a niche. To paraphrase what someone else said, if you are enjoying the game, and it continues to grow and evolve, isn't that good enough? With that in mind, why are you here complaining and not playing
edit: corrected a couple things.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
As you said yourself, it is the market deciding what is so called niche or not.
WoW and the clones have millions of subscribers, let alone WoW taking more than 50% of western MMO market. Asian market which is probably much bigger, consisting of pretty much only 'monkeys can play' games so I guess it is not that difficult to say what those 'average Joes' like... and that has nothing to do with personal preference.
How other people look at and read reviews I dont' know nor I care thus provided 'service' is just a matter of taste.
Finding someone to rereview this game fully will be extremely difficult. Spending 30 hours is simply not enough time given how long it takes to experiences all the aspects of this game. At the same time you need to find a reviewer who is open to the idea of an open ended style game, not adverse to PvP, and has the right amount of balance. I've played this game literally off and on for a year, and there still new things aspects of the game I get exposed to. Aside from whatever the game mechanics are, there is an entire meta game with politics that goes on in vent servers and on the forums. Even if a new reviewer was going to start playing today, I don't see how they could experience all of the various parts of the game and write about it for at least a few months.
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
Co-Leader of Inquisition
Youtube Channel
So a niche game means it is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to the average gamer?
Do some of you people even think about what you are typing before you hit "post message"?
/facepalm
thank god other genres and forms of entertainment don't follow this ridiculous philosophy. I shudder to think where we would be if, in every form of entertainment, anything that wasn't mainstream got bad reviews. Honest to God i cannot comprehend how a thinking, "non special needs" human being can ever think this philosophy is a good thing no matter whether you are joe average gamer or a pvper or anything else for that matter. I understand people will take whatever stance tends to support their own biased view of a game but this discussion goes way beyond that.
Paragus, i don't think anyone is asking for a reviewer to spend 30 hours in the game to review it. We're just asking that someone who actually enjoys this style of game review it. That person is not going to be Joe Average Gamer (who the editor of this site said they tailor all their reviews at and games will be penalized accordingly if they don't target the average gamer). Their are plenty of relevant, apt analogies in this thread on why that is just a dumb, nonsensical review philosophy.
Did I say the game was bad?
Do some of you even read before hitting reply?
/facepalm
As has been pointed out, this site will cater to a certain audience and the reviews reflect that. Good or bad, the game will not get a rave review, on this site, as a result. That's just the way it is. As I pointed out, a site like Metacritic could help you find a different site that is more in line with your tastes. It's really pretty simple, but if you want to find drama in that, knock yourself out.
edit: To speak to your second paragraph, there are great films (As an example) don't get mainstream attention, but are successful in their own right. Many times, the director, writer, and actors aren't making the movie under the impression it is going to compete with something like Avatar (as a recent example). Their audience is defined, their resources likely modest, but they target their niche and succeed in it. They expect a New York Times review and generally that's ok with them.
This can easily translate to games, and as I pointed out, the niche value of this game is not some sort of state secret. As such, regardless of anyone's personal taste for it, a mainstream site, if they review, would not stand much chance of reviewing the product to the depth that the niche audience could appreciate. A likely side effect is a score that is lower then that niche audience would have given it. I certainly don't think that logic advances any personal agenda about this game, but we'll each believe what you want on that I'm sure.
edit: typos typos typos
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Oh I definitely agree with you. I use the 30 hour thing because I know it is the standard that this site and some others use to give official reviews of MMOs. This is in part why I think the Aion review on this site was very misleading. 30 hours into Aion, the game still has content, the grind is manageable, and the flaws in the Abyss are not really apparent. It wasn't until the mid range of the game that most people saw content dry up, the grind go up exponentially, and the core if their conquest system was flawed. That was a theme park, in a more sandboxy type game it requires even more time and the drive to go seek out the various aspects of the game because they aren't fed to you in the same manner. I said it before and I'll say it again, Darkfall is not for everyone, so it can't be given a fair review by the average Joe as you call it.
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
Co-Leader of Inquisition
Youtube Channel
Did I say the game was bad?
Do some of you even read before hitting reply?
/facepalm
As has been pointed out, this site will cater to a certain audience and the reviews reflect that. Good or bad, the game will not get a rave review as a result. That's just the way it is. As I pointed out, a site like Metacritic could help you find a different site that is more in line with your tastes. It's really pretty simple, but if you want to find drama in that, knock yourself out.
You're now arguing semantics instead of the point of your post, which is what people do when they know they are losing a debate.
The point of your post was that a review of a game will be adversely impacted (ie won't get "rave reviews") solely because it does not target the average gamer. And yes, it is a pretty "simple" philosophy. That i agree with.
This site does cater to a certain audience. Those that like mmorpgs. I was not aware up to this point that it only catered to those who like WoW (joe average gamer).