Anyway you ignored my point about instances so I'll repeat the question since I think it sums up the problem quite nicely. If all of WoW's instances suddenly became soloable (even ICC) and, in a similar time frame, players were able to obtain the same rewards, would players still group for them? You know the answer is 'no', the only people grouping would be a few people like yourself who do it for no reason, and you would suddenly find it a lot harder to ever get a group for those instances because the majority of the people you used to run them with would now be soloing them.
The only way to make grouping a popular enough choice to have enough other people to actually group with is to force it on players. Even making it more efficient doesn't help much since time saved in groups is often lost again through the process of forming and maintaining them.
The question you're asking is really dumb. That is almost an ubelieveable highly unlikely scenario. Do you even require an answer for that question of yours that holds no relevance here? No,I don't see many people grouping, hope you feel better.
Now let's think logically here. If BioWare let you go the route of soloing dungeons, odds are everything would be scaled, including the loot to drop. There are alternatives which are far better then Forced Grouping. Let's also recall the emphasis on Story, and how other players will change it, this is another reason to group. Also more xp for a group? And you're complaining about forming time and LOL MAINTAINING your group?....Dude it took me about 5 minutes to form a group before the xserver LFG tool came out in WoW and the members maintained themselves, most of them have a mind of there own. As for raiding, that's mostly a guild activity. By the way, did you know Guilds solve a lot of problems. I just thought I would throw that out there, again I still bet you ignore this.Five minutes of forming, I could already be half way to my destination, think of all that xp I missed. Shame.
The only way to make grouping popular is to make it enjoyable and worthwhile. Options like bonus xp, enhanced story and the possibility (may have been confirmed) scaling has encouraged me to level in a group in ToR.
At one time WoW had 12 million playing from all over ther world. If some can't find a group in WoW then you need to not play at all. Anyway, the fact is that TOR offers both grouping and solo play just like every other mmo does. I don't see where the problem is because it is only a problem if people make it one.
Exactly. I've had no problem grouping in World of Warcraft and neither does anyone else that actually plays the game. Everyone knows where the social hubs are in that game . I'm just not seeing the problem with grouping that others claim to have with that game.
I think the real problem is that the forced groupers want everyone to play the game EXACTLY as they do, otherwise they aren't happy. That much is clear from the conversation we've had here. They say that the community would be better with forced grouping, yet the community would NOT be better because a lot of them would leave. You'd have a much smaller community and no gaming company in their right mind would want to purposely shut off an entire player base just to satisfy a select few. A lot of people like having the option of going solo. I like having the option of going solo when I'm not in the mood to deal with other people. Sometimes I like just having the ability to log on for a few minutes and play.And then other times I do feel like taking the time to play others. I have both options in WOW and I'll have them both in TOR.
If you are soloing all the time, then wheter you leave the game or not is immaterial to me. You're either not playing the game, or off somewhere playing solo, either way you dont' exist as far as I'm concerned.
3x xp for groups, from the article, sounds like a good start.
Just because I'm getting 3x xp in a group, doesn't mean yuo can't log in and play solo for a few minutes whenever you want, so I don't see what you are whining about.
At one time WoW had 12 million playing from all over ther world. If some can't find a group in WoW then you need to not play at all. Anyway, the fact is that TOR offers both grouping and solo play just like every other mmo does. I don't see where the problem is because it is only a problem if people make it one.
Exactly. I've had no problem grouping in World of Warcraft and neither does anyone else that actually plays the game. Everyone knows where the social hubs are in that game . I'm just not seeing the problem with grouping that others claim to have with that game.
I think the real problem is that the forced groupers want everyone to play the game EXACTLY as they do, otherwise they aren't happy. That much is clear from the conversation we've had here. They say that the community would be better with forced grouping, yet the community would NOT be better because a lot of them would leave. You'd have a much smaller community and no gaming company in their right mind would want to purposely shut off an entire player base just to satisfy a select few. A lot of people like having the option of going solo. I like having the option of going solo when I'm not in the mood to deal with other people. Sometimes I like just having the ability to log on for a few minutes and play.And then other times I do feel like taking the time to play others. I have both options in WOW and I'll have them both in TOR.
If you are soloing all the time, then wheter you leave the game or not is immaterial to me. You're either not playing the game, or off somewhere playing solo, either way you dont' exist as far as I'm concerned.
3x xp for groups, from the article, sounds like a good start.
Just because I'm getting 3x xp in a group, doesn't mean yuo can't log in and play solo for a few minutes whenever you want, so I don't see what you are whining about.
???????? Clearly you haven't been following this conversation, so please learn to read closely before throwing daggers.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by SaintViktor
At one time WoW had 12 million playing from all over ther world. If some can't find a group in WoW then you need to not play at all. Anyway, the fact is that TOR offers both grouping and solo play just like every other mmo does. I don't see where the problem is because it is only a problem if people make it one.
Exactly. I've had no problem grouping in World of Warcraft and neither does anyone else that actually plays the game. Everyone knows where the social hubs are in that game . I'm just not seeing the problem with grouping that others claim to have with that game.
I think the real problem is that the forced groupers want everyone to play the game EXACTLY as they do, otherwise they aren't happy. That much is clear from the conversation we've had here. They say that the community would be better with forced grouping, yet the community would NOT be better because a lot of them would leave. You'd have a much smaller community and no gaming company in their right mind would want to purposely shut off an entire player base just to satisfy a select few. A lot of people like having the option of going solo. I like having the option of going solo when I'm not in the mood to deal with other people. Sometimes I like just having the ability to log on for a few minutes and play.And then other times I do feel like taking the time to play others. I have both options in WOW and I'll have them both in TOR.
If you are soloing all the time, then wheter you leave the game or not is immaterial to me. You're either not playing the game, or off somewhere playing solo, either way you dont' exist as far as I'm concerned. 3x xp for groups, from the article, sounds like a good start.
Just because I'm getting 3x xp in a group, doesn't mean yuo can't log in and play solo for a few minutes whenever you want, so I don't see what you are whining about.
Did you by any chance quote the wrong post? What you're saying is in no ways in opposition to what the quoted post is saying.
At one time WoW had 12 million playing from all over ther world. If some can't find a group in WoW then you need to not play at all. Anyway, the fact is that TOR offers both grouping and solo play just like every other mmo does. I don't see where the problem is because it is only a problem if people make it one.
Exactly. I've had no problem grouping in World of Warcraft and neither does anyone else that actually plays the game. Everyone knows where the social hubs are in that game . I'm just not seeing the problem with grouping that others claim to have with that game.
I think the real problem is that the forced groupers want everyone to play the game EXACTLY as they do, otherwise they aren't happy. That much is clear from the conversation we've had here. They say that the community would be better with forced grouping, yet the community would NOT be better because a lot of them would leave. You'd have a much smaller community and no gaming company in their right mind would want to purposely shut off an entire player base just to satisfy a select few. A lot of people like having the option of going solo. I like having the option of going solo when I'm not in the mood to deal with other people. Sometimes I like just having the ability to log on for a few minutes and play.And then other times I do feel like taking the time to play others. I have both options in WOW and I'll have them both in TOR.
This is just fundamentally wrong.
Why would a person that wants a good grouping game, care what you are doing in that game?
I want a good grouping game. That means the mechanics encourage grouping, making the effort of getting a group together worth while and rewarding.
Whether you are playing the game or not, is irrelevant to me.
It's like saying, somone wants a FPS game, because they want to force all players to use twitch skills. WTF?!!!
It just means you like playing an FPS game, and you are not concerned with poeple playing an RTS instead.
I want a good grouping game. Why would I care if you play it or not? Why would I want to make you play a good grouping game, or a FPS game, if you don't like that sort of game?
Makes no sense, IMO.
Plus, I've played WoW. Getting in a group is easy, but during the leveling phase the group combat sucks.
It's is NOT a good grouping game.
Getting in a group =/= to a good grouping game.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It's like you say you want to drive a race car. So I give you a go cart, and say, there! Aren't you happy now? You are driving! What, why are you complaining? You can drive right? So you got exactly what you wanted! Be happy! You said you wanted to drive, and you are driving! Everyone can drive a go cart, and you can drive a go cart too! Why would you want to FORCE everyone to drive a race car? Not everyone is good at race car driving you know!
But you probably dont' want to "force" anyone to drive a race car, you just want to drive a race car, regardless of whether anyone else can or not.
Why would a person that wants a good grouping game, care what you are doing in that game?
Again, please look back at the conversation chain and then get back to me because you are clearly lost. That is exactly what they are saying. There's a difference between wanting a good grouping game and wanting a game that forces people to group. There were two posters who specifically said they were for forced If you're for forcing people to group then you very much care about what I'm doing in game and that I have a problem with. That is what the conversation was about before you blindly jumped into it.
In FACT that little post right there pretty much shows that they are following the WoW system (another single player mmo) of partying. In that system every other person with you adds an party bonus of ( for example) 25 extra point before it's devided.
By the way, they need to reign in their folks if they dont want people to think this is a single player game because according to this dude in this interview for X-play..... this is a single player game. This is going to be WoW in space with lightsabers.
The only way to ever encourage players to group in an MMO is to basically make it more rewarding than solo play to the point that soloinbg is really only a last option for when you can't find a group. This has been proven by the countless soloable games released in recent years.
Or maybe you can give both soloing and grouping a place, you know, like the most successful game out there (wherein people are constantly grouping up) does?
It's already been confirmed there'll be group content outside the soloable personal storyline (which can still be grouped if you so choose).
But yeah, giving people choices and all is bad, we should all be forced to scream for healers and tanks in the main town all day if we want to kill anything other than rats and bunnies.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Why would a person that wants a good grouping game, care what you are doing in that game?
Again, please look back at the conversation chain and then get back to me because you are clearly lost. That is exactly what they are saying. There's a difference between wanting a good grouping game and wanting a game that forces people to group. There were two posters who specifically said they were for forced If you're for forcing people to group then you very much care about what I'm doing in game and that I have a problem with. That is what the conversation was about before you blindly jumped into it.
Uhmm. No.
I am for a good grouping game. What means a good grouping game to me, someone else will call "forced grouping".
But I dont' care if they group or dont' group, or go play a different game.
I want a game that is hard to solo.
Not because I want YOU to group, but because that makes it fun for ME to play in a group.
You have nothing to do with it, and I could care less if you play, solo, don't play.
But make soling hard enough that I enjoy grouping. Which means someone will say "OMG! this game is so hard to solo, that i'm FORCED go group!"
yes, because it's a good grouping game.
Like, if I want to drive a race car around the track, there is no room for go carts.
If you don't want to get in a race car, I'm not forcing you to, but please don't say we ALL have to drive in a go cart because you're scared to go that fast. Then get off the track, because I want to drive a race car. Doesn't matter to me if you jump in the race or not. I certainly wouldn't force you to to get in a race car if you don't like it.
But the track is for fast cars. What are you going to do?
A GOOD grouping game makes soloer's cry "forced grouping". What are you going to do?
The only way to ever encourage players to group in an MMO is to basically make it more rewarding than solo play to the point that soloinbg is really only a last option for when you can't find a group. This has been proven by the countless soloable games released in recent years.
Or maybe you can give both soloing and grouping a place, you know, like the most successful game out there (wherein people are constantly grouping up) does?
It's already been confirmed there'll be group content outside the soloable personal storyline (which can still be grouped if you so choose).
But yeah, giving people choices and all is bad, we should all be forced to scream for healers and tanks in the main town all day if we want to kill anything other than rats and bunnies.
There's really no way to split the baby.
What's "good" about a grouping game if it's just as easy to solo the content? I can see nothing that would make that a "good" grouping game.
Seems liek the group is rather pointless, since it's not necessary. How is that "good"?
For exmample let's say you never get a weapon that does more damage than your first newb weapon. BUT, we'll let you have LOTs of different weapons!
Wouldn't that be "good"?
Because, you see, you CAN have other weapons!
Just like yuo CAN group!
It's pointless to get another weapon, since they all do the same thing, but you CAN do it! Isn't that great!
And it's pointless to group, because you can solo to the cap amost as fast, but yuo CAN do it! Isn't that great!
I am for a good grouping game. What means a good grouping game to me, someone else will call "forced grouping".
But I dont' care if they group or dont' group, or go play a different game.
I want a game that is hard to solo.
Not because I want YOU to group, but because that makes it fun for ME to play in a group.
You have nothing to do with it, and I could care less if you play, solo, don't play.
But make soling hard enough that I enjoy grouping. Which means someone will say "OMG! this game is so hard to solo, that i'm FORCED go group!"
yes, because it's a good grouping game.
Like, if I want to drive a race car around the track, there is no room for go carts.
If you don't want to get in a race car, I'm not forcing you to, but please don't say we ALL have to drive in a go cart because you're scared to go that fast. Then get off the track, because I want to drive a race car. Doesn't matter to me if you jump in the race or not. I certainly wouldn't force you to to get in a race car if you don't like it.
But the track is for fast cars. What are you going to do?
A GOOD grouping game makes soloer's cry "forced grouping". What are you going to do?
So you're the type of player that in order to have fun everyone else in the game has to play it the same way. That's basically what you're saying. I don't care how much you want to sugar coat it, and it's exactly what I was saying in the first place. Guess this game isn't for you then since it clearly shows players being able to advance without others. See ya.
What's "good" about a grouping game if it's just as easy to solo the content? I can see nothing that would make that a "good" grouping game.
Seems liek the group is rather pointless, since it's not necessary. How is that "good"?
For exmample let's say you never get a weapon that does more damage than your first newb weapon. BUT, we'll let you have LOTs of different weapons!
Wouldn't that be "good"?
Because, you see, you CAN have other weapons!
Just like yuo CAN group!
It's pointless to get another weapon, since they all do the same thing, but you CAN do it! Isn't that great!
And it's pointless to group, because you can solo to the cap amost as fast, but yuo CAN do it! Isn't that great!
It's already been done, and it isn't a matter of splitting the baby at all.
It's just a matter of giving people incentive to group, through rewards, grouping tools and interesting encounters, which works fine, as seen in WoW.
And which will be done in TOR, as stated by the devs.
Your example doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and is entirely unrelated to the reality of this matter.
What will happen in TOR: you log in, you have the option to get straight to the action solo and progress your character, or you can invite some people to do that with you (and gain more XP), or you can look for a group and do the group specific combat.
What you want: you log in, you're stuck in town because you can't progress realistically without a group, and have to first spend time finding all the people and roles required. After not finding any groups for an hour or so and getting bored most casuals will log out and most hardcore will start grinding the measly mobs that their supposedly "super powerful" mages and warriors can still kill alone while spamming the LFG channel.
For the record, scenario 2 is out of the picture for quite some time now, and thank god for that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
What's "good" about a grouping game if it's just as easy to solo the content? I can see nothing that would make that a "good" grouping game.
Seems liek the group is rather pointless, since it's not necessary. How is that "good"?
For exmample let's say you never get a weapon that does more damage than your first newb weapon. BUT, we'll let you have LOTs of different weapons!
Wouldn't that be "good"?
Because, you see, you CAN have other weapons!
Just like yuo CAN group!
It's pointless to get another weapon, since they all do the same thing, but you CAN do it! Isn't that great!
And it's pointless to group, because you can solo to the cap amost as fast, but yuo CAN do it! Isn't that great!
It's already been done, and it isn't a matter of splitting the baby at all.
It's just a matter of giving people incentive to group, through rewards, grouping tools and interesting encounters, which works fine, as seen in WoW.
And which will be done in TOR, as stated by the devs.
Your example doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and is entirely unrelated to the reality of this matter.
What will happen in TOR: you log in, you have the option to get straight to the action solo and progress your character, or you can invite some people to do that with you (and gain more XP), or you can look for a group and do the group specific combat.
What you want: you log in, you're stuck in town because you can't progress realistically without a group, and have to first spend time finding all the people and roles required. After not finding any groups for an hour or so and getting bored most casuals will log out and most hardcore will start grinding the measly mobs that their supposedly "super powerful" mages and warriors can still kill alone while spamming the LFG channel.
For the record, scenario 2 is out of the picture for quite some time now, and thank god for that.
What's "good" about a grouping game if it's just as easy to solo the content? I can see nothing that would make that a "good" grouping game.
Seems liek the group is rather pointless, since it's not necessary. How is that "good"?
For exmample let's say you never get a weapon that does more damage than your first newb weapon. BUT, we'll let you have LOTs of different weapons!
Wouldn't that be "good"?
Because, you see, you CAN have other weapons!
Just like yuo CAN group!
It's pointless to get another weapon, since they all do the same thing, but you CAN do it! Isn't that great!
And it's pointless to group, because you can solo to the cap amost as fast, but yuo CAN do it! Isn't that great!
It's already been done, and it isn't a matter of splitting the baby at all.
It's just a matter of giving people incentive to group, through rewards, grouping tools and interesting encounters, which works fine, as seen in WoW.
And which will be done in TOR, as stated by the devs.
Your example doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and is entirely unrelated to the reality of this matter.
What will happen in TOR: you log in, you have the option to get straight to the action solo and progress your character, or you can invite some people to do that with you (and gain more XP), or you can look for a group and do the group specific combat.
What you want: you log in, you're stuck in town because you can't progress realistically without a group, and have to first spend time finding all the people and roles required. After not finding any groups for an hour or so and getting bored most casuals will log out and most hardcore will start grinding the measly mobs that their supposedly "super powerful" mages and warriors can still kill alone while spamming the LFG channel.
For the record, scenario 2 is out of the picture for quite some time now, and thank god for that.
To my knowledge there is no such game. You can ALWAYS make progress solo, in every MMORPG that's ever been released. People often soloe'd to the cap in supposed "forced grouping" games, like DAoC and EQ.
What you want, to make progress just as fast as a group, which means grouping is pointless.
The devs have already stated grouping will be at LEAST 3x faster that solo. Sounds good to me.
I am for a good grouping game. What means a good grouping game to me, someone else will call "forced grouping".
But I dont' care if they group or dont' group, or go play a different game.
I want a game that is hard to solo.
Not because I want YOU to group, but because that makes it fun for ME to play in a group.
You have nothing to do with it, and I could care less if you play, solo, don't play.
But make soling hard enough that I enjoy grouping. Which means someone will say "OMG! this game is so hard to solo, that i'm FORCED go group!"
yes, because it's a good grouping game.
Like, if I want to drive a race car around the track, there is no room for go carts.
If you don't want to get in a race car, I'm not forcing you to, but please don't say we ALL have to drive in a go cart because you're scared to go that fast. Then get off the track, because I want to drive a race car. Doesn't matter to me if you jump in the race or not. I certainly wouldn't force you to to get in a race car if you don't like it.
But the track is for fast cars. What are you going to do?
A GOOD grouping game makes soloer's cry "forced grouping". What are you going to do?
So you're the type of player that in order to have fun everyone else in the game has to play it the same way. That's basically what you're saying. I don't care how much you want to sugar coat it, and it's exactly what I was saying in the first place. Guess this game isn't for you then since it clearly shows players being able to advance without others. See ya.
I still dont' understand how me wanting a good grouping game, has anything to do with your playstyle?
Let's say I want to go to a club and listen to rock n' roll, and you like country music. Does that mean I'm trying to "force" you to listen to rock n' roll?
I don't get it, because that's what you're saying. I like something, which means I must want you to like it, or force you to like it.
But why would I care what you like, or want to force you to play anything you dislike? Makes no sense IMO.
So you think it's fair to make my rock n roll club play half country and half rock n' roll, and that way I'm happy, and you're happy?
Why do you have to screw up my rock n' roll club to be happy, if I dont' really like country music? i'ts not like I can just plug my ears while the country music plays.
And in a solo fest like WoW, it's not like the solo game disappears while I'm in a group. If I'm playing WoW, I'lll just solo to the cap, do a group end quest dungeon now and then, like everyone else.
I said it before and say it again, pro forced grouping people dont give a shit about the social aspect of grouping. All they care about is the fucking carrot. Take away the carrot and they lose interest in grouping at all.
So what if the reward for everyone in the group is the same as for a individual person? What happened to just killing monsters with your friends?
I say that people that advocate for forced grouping dont enjoy grouping at all. They want group rewards to be the end all, be all of the game, and have people who enjoy soloing to rot in the gutters.
Yes, the fact that you *can* group is a valid argument. If you dont play a game for fun then I dont give a shit about your opinion anymore. So a game isnt fun unless everyone plays exactly like you? A game isnt fun unless there are people who cant improve their characters in any way solely because of their playstyle? Bullshit.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
This is silly, I've never seen a game where you couldn't progress faster in a group. People whine about getting less XP, but that's only because they look at XP per kill. Grouped progression is always faster no matter what the game.
I said it before and say it again, pro forced grouping people dont give a shit about the social aspect of grouping. All they care about is the fucking carrot. Take away the carrot and they lose interest in grouping at all.
So what if the reward for everyone in the group is the same as for a individual person? What happened to just killing monsters with your friends?
I say that people that advocate for forced grouping dont enjoy grouping at all. They want group rewards to be the end all, be all of the game, and have people who enjoy soloing to rot in the gutters.
Yes, the fact that you *can* group is a valid argument. If you dont play a game for fun then I dont give a shit about your opinion anymore. So a game isnt fun unless everyone plays exactly like you? A game isnt fun unless there are people who cant improve their characters in any way solely because of their playstyle? Bullshit.
This is the pot calling the kettle black. If you make it a solo fest to the cap, like WoW, then everyone will play like that, which they do. So you're saying you're not happy unless everyone plays the game like you. Because people play the game the way it's designed.
Why would anyone want to kill monsters with your friends if the game makes that pointless? That would be like pissing in the wind with your friends.
Just because you have friends doing something with you doesn't make it fun.
And you don't need to group to socialize with your friends. You can chat with them while you solo, and socialize just fine without grouping.
On the other hand, MEANINGFUL grouping with your friends is fun.
Would I want to bring a bunch of friends to sail a one man sail boat with me? NOt really, since it would be pointless. But would it be great fun to sail a boat together that requires us to work as a team? Yes, that is a LOT of fun!
This is silly, I've never seen a game where you couldn't progress faster in a group. People whine about getting less XP, but that's only because they look at XP per kill. Grouped progression is always faster no matter what the game.
First of all you are ignoring time to form a group, which the Devs of TOR acknowledge in thte article.
It starts to make more sense if you take into account leveling time as a total. Once you make the total time to the cap very short, the difference means very little.
For example, let's say you can level to the cap with a group TWICE as fast as solo.
But, the level to the cap with a group is two weeks, so solo that would make it double that, or one month.
IMO, that's not enough of a difference, two weeks versus one month, for anyone to really care. Although the difference is DOUBLE, it's irrelevant, because of the short duration in total time to level cap.
On the other hand, let's say a group takes a year to level to the cap, so solo that is double or TWO YEARS! Suddenly this dramatically changes the equation, making grouping very important becaues two years is a LONG time!
So the fact that grouping is faster become irrelevant if the time to the level cap is short.
Let's look at it even more exaggerated, and you may see my point.
Grouping takes one day to level cap, Solo would take two days.
Do you care if you group or not? Is there much difference between one day, and two days? In fact, the time you spend looking for groups, organizing etc, even with DOUBLE xp while grouped, you could probably solo tothe cap faster in this case.
So analyzing the "difference" by itself is rather meaningless. As you can see the "difference" in all these cases is double, but that can be really important, or meaningless depending on the time to the level cap.
I am for a good grouping game. What means a good grouping game to me, someone else will call "forced grouping".
But I dont' care if they group or dont' group, or go play a different game.
I want a game that is hard to solo.
Not because I want YOU to group, but because that makes it fun for ME to play in a group.
You have nothing to do with it, and I could care less if you play, solo, don't play.
But make soling hard enough that I enjoy grouping. Which means someone will say "OMG! this game is so hard to solo, that i'm FORCED go group!"
yes, because it's a good grouping game.
Like, if I want to drive a race car around the track, there is no room for go carts.
If you don't want to get in a race car, I'm not forcing you to, but please don't say we ALL have to drive in a go cart because you're scared to go that fast. Then get off the track, because I want to drive a race car. Doesn't matter to me if you jump in the race or not. I certainly wouldn't force you to to get in a race car if you don't like it.
But the track is for fast cars. What are you going to do?
A GOOD grouping game makes soloer's cry "forced grouping". What are you going to do?
So you're the type of player that in order to have fun everyone else in the game has to play it the same way. That's basically what you're saying. I don't care how much you want to sugar coat it, and it's exactly what I was saying in the first place. Guess this game isn't for you then since it clearly shows players being able to advance without others. See ya.
I still dont' understand how me wanting a good grouping game, has anything to do with your playstyle?
Let's say I want to go to a club and listen to rock n' roll, and you like country music. Does that mean I'm trying to "force" you to listen to rock n' roll?
I don't get it, because that's what you're saying. I like something, which means I must want you to like it, or force you to like it.
But why would I care what you like, or want to force you to play anything you dislike? Makes no sense IMO.
So you think it's fair to make my rock n roll club play half country and half rock n' roll, and that way I'm happy, and you're happy?
Why do you have to screw up my rock n' roll club to be happy, if I dont' really like country music? i'ts not like I can just plug my ears while the country music plays.
And in a solo fest like WoW, it's not like the solo game disappears while I'm in a group. If I'm playing WoW, I'lll just solo to the cap, do a group end quest dungeon now and then, like everyone else.
The problem is that the club you are attending now plays Rock & Roll and Country. So instead of enjoying your sounds and relaxing while others enjoy theirs, you get upset and tell the club owner to stop playing country. He in return tells you to "piss off or get out. We are trying to please everyone in here."
There is no MMORPG:Solo edition or MMORPG: Group Content Only. The genre is small enough, and your selfish needs in game is asking for gaming companies to split them even more.
But in reality we get country bars, and rock n roll bars.
Playing both in the same club, makes no one happy.
That's when you try to split the baby. It doesn't really work.
But, like I stated earlier, the Devs have stated already groups will make a minimum of 3X xp of solo players. I think that's pretty good, so it may work out to be a good grouping game.
If you aren't happy because you are making less XP solo, you can go play Wow.
To my knowledge there is no such game. You can ALWAYS make progress solo, in every MMORPG that's ever been released. People often soloe'd to the cap in supposed "forced grouping" games, like DAoC and EQ.
What you want, to make progress just as fast as a group, which means grouping is pointless.
The devs have already stated grouping will be at LEAST 3x faster that solo. Sounds good to me.
Yes there is no such game, but there are games where grouping is the only realistic way of progressing, because every other way of doing things ends up being a mind boggling, uninteresting grind.
I look at games like EQ, EQ2 (when it started out), FFXI...
I have never stated I want to progress just as fast as in a group, in fact, because you will gain more XP in a group (which is the way it's supposed to be imo) you'll progress faster.
Grouping should also provide greater rewards in accordance to the difficulty of getting the group together and dealing with other people.
And I fully expect this to be in the game.
What I don't want, is having no realisitc or interesting option in progressing your character on your own, people should be able to log in and do their own thing if they so choose, and they will.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
This is silly, I've never seen a game where you couldn't progress faster in a group. People whine about getting less XP, but that's only because they look at XP per kill. Grouped progression is always faster no matter what the game.
Outside of select dungeons or elite content, you can pretty much progress faster solo in WOW, LotRO, and Aion just to name a few. (assuming you're not talking about powerleveling)
Not sure what games you've been playing.
Sounds like SWTOR might be taking a good path, providing extra rewards for those willing to group up. I'm glad to see dev's starting to think more like this again.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyway, I agree that grouping should be faster leveling, and for solo it's ok to be slower leveling, as long as there is always something to do.
I don't advocate making zero content for solo play. What wold be the point in that?
It's hard to balance. you have to do TWO things. One, you have to provide content for solo and group. And hopefully not "scaled" content, because for me that feels like cheating.
Two, you have to provide enough of a bonus for groups so it's worthwhile to put up wiht forming one, BUT not so much bonus that the solo players feel like soloing is a lost cause.
I hope they get it right.
As mentioned above, when you take into account travel time, talking with other players, deciding on where to go, people going link dead, etc., and the XP rates, it's actually faster to solo to the cap in WoW, which is why so many people do it.
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The question you're asking is really dumb. That is almost an ubelieveable highly unlikely scenario. Do you even require an answer for that question of yours that holds no relevance here? No,I don't see many people grouping, hope you feel better.
Now let's think logically here. If BioWare let you go the route of soloing dungeons, odds are everything would be scaled, including the loot to drop. There are alternatives which are far better then Forced Grouping. Let's also recall the emphasis on Story, and how other players will change it, this is another reason to group. Also more xp for a group? And you're complaining about forming time and LOL MAINTAINING your group?....Dude it took me about 5 minutes to form a group before the xserver LFG tool came out in WoW and the members maintained themselves, most of them have a mind of there own. As for raiding, that's mostly a guild activity. By the way, did you know Guilds solve a lot of problems. I just thought I would throw that out there, again I still bet you ignore this.Five minutes of forming, I could already be half way to my destination, think of all that xp I missed. Shame.
The only way to make grouping popular is to make it enjoyable and worthwhile. Options like bonus xp, enhanced story and the possibility (may have been confirmed) scaling has encouraged me to level in a group in ToR.
And I wasn't even forced : O
If you are soloing all the time, then wheter you leave the game or not is immaterial to me. You're either not playing the game, or off somewhere playing solo, either way you dont' exist as far as I'm concerned.
3x xp for groups, from the article, sounds like a good start.
Just because I'm getting 3x xp in a group, doesn't mean yuo can't log in and play solo for a few minutes whenever you want, so I don't see what you are whining about.
???????? Clearly you haven't been following this conversation, so please learn to read closely before throwing daggers.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
If you are soloing all the time, then wheter you leave the game or not is immaterial to me. You're either not playing the game, or off somewhere playing solo, either way you dont' exist as far as I'm concerned.
3x xp for groups, from the article, sounds like a good start.
Just because I'm getting 3x xp in a group, doesn't mean yuo can't log in and play solo for a few minutes whenever you want, so I don't see what you are whining about.
Did you by any chance quote the wrong post? What you're saying is in no ways in opposition to what the quoted post is saying.
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maybe we should wait till the game comes out.. like beta .. SO much can change. If it takes longer to lvl doing solo.. so ..
This is just fundamentally wrong.
Why would a person that wants a good grouping game, care what you are doing in that game?
I want a good grouping game. That means the mechanics encourage grouping, making the effort of getting a group together worth while and rewarding.
Whether you are playing the game or not, is irrelevant to me.
It's like saying, somone wants a FPS game, because they want to force all players to use twitch skills. WTF?!!!
It just means you like playing an FPS game, and you are not concerned with poeple playing an RTS instead.
I want a good grouping game. Why would I care if you play it or not? Why would I want to make you play a good grouping game, or a FPS game, if you don't like that sort of game?
Makes no sense, IMO.
Plus, I've played WoW. Getting in a group is easy, but during the leveling phase the group combat sucks.
It's is NOT a good grouping game.
Getting in a group =/= to a good grouping game.
Why is that so hard to understand?
It's like you say you want to drive a race car. So I give you a go cart, and say, there! Aren't you happy now? You are driving! What, why are you complaining? You can drive right? So you got exactly what you wanted! Be happy! You said you wanted to drive, and you are driving! Everyone can drive a go cart, and you can drive a go cart too! Why would you want to FORCE everyone to drive a race car? Not everyone is good at race car driving you know!
But you probably dont' want to "force" anyone to drive a race car, you just want to drive a race car, regardless of whether anyone else can or not.
See what I mean?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
solo play / no forced grouping == single player game
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Or maybe you can give both soloing and grouping a place, you know, like the most successful game out there (wherein people are constantly grouping up) does?
It's already been confirmed there'll be group content outside the soloable personal storyline (which can still be grouped if you so choose).
But yeah, giving people choices and all is bad, we should all be forced to scream for healers and tanks in the main town all day if we want to kill anything other than rats and bunnies.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Uhmm. No.
I am for a good grouping game. What means a good grouping game to me, someone else will call "forced grouping".
But I dont' care if they group or dont' group, or go play a different game.
I want a game that is hard to solo.
Not because I want YOU to group, but because that makes it fun for ME to play in a group.
You have nothing to do with it, and I could care less if you play, solo, don't play.
But make soling hard enough that I enjoy grouping. Which means someone will say "OMG! this game is so hard to solo, that i'm FORCED go group!"
yes, because it's a good grouping game.
Like, if I want to drive a race car around the track, there is no room for go carts.
If you don't want to get in a race car, I'm not forcing you to, but please don't say we ALL have to drive in a go cart because you're scared to go that fast. Then get off the track, because I want to drive a race car. Doesn't matter to me if you jump in the race or not. I certainly wouldn't force you to to get in a race car if you don't like it.
But the track is for fast cars. What are you going to do?
A GOOD grouping game makes soloer's cry "forced grouping". What are you going to do?
There's really no way to split the baby.
What's "good" about a grouping game if it's just as easy to solo the content? I can see nothing that would make that a "good" grouping game.
Seems liek the group is rather pointless, since it's not necessary. How is that "good"?
For exmample let's say you never get a weapon that does more damage than your first newb weapon. BUT, we'll let you have LOTs of different weapons!
Wouldn't that be "good"?
Because, you see, you CAN have other weapons!
Just like yuo CAN group!
It's pointless to get another weapon, since they all do the same thing, but you CAN do it! Isn't that great!
And it's pointless to group, because you can solo to the cap amost as fast, but yuo CAN do it! Isn't that great!
So you're the type of player that in order to have fun everyone else in the game has to play it the same way. That's basically what you're saying. I don't care how much you want to sugar coat it, and it's exactly what I was saying in the first place. Guess this game isn't for you then since it clearly shows players being able to advance without others. See ya.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
It's already been done, and it isn't a matter of splitting the baby at all.
It's just a matter of giving people incentive to group, through rewards, grouping tools and interesting encounters, which works fine, as seen in WoW.
And which will be done in TOR, as stated by the devs.
Your example doesn't make the slightest bit of sense and is entirely unrelated to the reality of this matter.
What will happen in TOR: you log in, you have the option to get straight to the action solo and progress your character, or you can invite some people to do that with you (and gain more XP), or you can look for a group and do the group specific combat.
What you want: you log in, you're stuck in town because you can't progress realistically without a group, and have to first spend time finding all the people and roles required. After not finding any groups for an hour or so and getting bored most casuals will log out and most hardcore will start grinding the measly mobs that their supposedly "super powerful" mages and warriors can still kill alone while spamming the LFG channel.
For the record, scenario 2 is out of the picture for quite some time now, and thank god for that.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
QFT
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
To my knowledge there is no such game. You can ALWAYS make progress solo, in every MMORPG that's ever been released. People often soloe'd to the cap in supposed "forced grouping" games, like DAoC and EQ.
What you want, to make progress just as fast as a group, which means grouping is pointless.
The devs have already stated grouping will be at LEAST 3x faster that solo. Sounds good to me.
I still dont' understand how me wanting a good grouping game, has anything to do with your playstyle?
Let's say I want to go to a club and listen to rock n' roll, and you like country music. Does that mean I'm trying to "force" you to listen to rock n' roll?
I don't get it, because that's what you're saying. I like something, which means I must want you to like it, or force you to like it.
But why would I care what you like, or want to force you to play anything you dislike? Makes no sense IMO.
So you think it's fair to make my rock n roll club play half country and half rock n' roll, and that way I'm happy, and you're happy?
Why do you have to screw up my rock n' roll club to be happy, if I dont' really like country music? i'ts not like I can just plug my ears while the country music plays.
And in a solo fest like WoW, it's not like the solo game disappears while I'm in a group. If I'm playing WoW, I'lll just solo to the cap, do a group end quest dungeon now and then, like everyone else.
I said it before and say it again, pro forced grouping people dont give a shit about the social aspect of grouping. All they care about is the fucking carrot. Take away the carrot and they lose interest in grouping at all.
So what if the reward for everyone in the group is the same as for a individual person? What happened to just killing monsters with your friends?
I say that people that advocate for forced grouping dont enjoy grouping at all. They want group rewards to be the end all, be all of the game, and have people who enjoy soloing to rot in the gutters.
Yes, the fact that you *can* group is a valid argument. If you dont play a game for fun then I dont give a shit about your opinion anymore. So a game isnt fun unless everyone plays exactly like you? A game isnt fun unless there are people who cant improve their characters in any way solely because of their playstyle? Bullshit.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
This is silly, I've never seen a game where you couldn't progress faster in a group. People whine about getting less XP, but that's only because they look at XP per kill. Grouped progression is always faster no matter what the game.
This is the pot calling the kettle black. If you make it a solo fest to the cap, like WoW, then everyone will play like that, which they do. So you're saying you're not happy unless everyone plays the game like you. Because people play the game the way it's designed.
Why would anyone want to kill monsters with your friends if the game makes that pointless? That would be like pissing in the wind with your friends.
Just because you have friends doing something with you doesn't make it fun.
And you don't need to group to socialize with your friends. You can chat with them while you solo, and socialize just fine without grouping.
On the other hand, MEANINGFUL grouping with your friends is fun.
Would I want to bring a bunch of friends to sail a one man sail boat with me? NOt really, since it would be pointless. But would it be great fun to sail a boat together that requires us to work as a team? Yes, that is a LOT of fun!
First of all you are ignoring time to form a group, which the Devs of TOR acknowledge in thte article.
It starts to make more sense if you take into account leveling time as a total. Once you make the total time to the cap very short, the difference means very little.
For example, let's say you can level to the cap with a group TWICE as fast as solo.
But, the level to the cap with a group is two weeks, so solo that would make it double that, or one month.
IMO, that's not enough of a difference, two weeks versus one month, for anyone to really care. Although the difference is DOUBLE, it's irrelevant, because of the short duration in total time to level cap.
On the other hand, let's say a group takes a year to level to the cap, so solo that is double or TWO YEARS! Suddenly this dramatically changes the equation, making grouping very important becaues two years is a LONG time!
So the fact that grouping is faster become irrelevant if the time to the level cap is short.
Let's look at it even more exaggerated, and you may see my point.
Grouping takes one day to level cap, Solo would take two days.
Do you care if you group or not? Is there much difference between one day, and two days? In fact, the time you spend looking for groups, organizing etc, even with DOUBLE xp while grouped, you could probably solo tothe cap faster in this case.
So analyzing the "difference" by itself is rather meaningless. As you can see the "difference" in all these cases is double, but that can be really important, or meaningless depending on the time to the level cap.
The problem is that the club you are attending now plays Rock & Roll and Country. So instead of enjoying your sounds and relaxing while others enjoy theirs, you get upset and tell the club owner to stop playing country. He in return tells you to "piss off or get out. We are trying to please everyone in here."
There is no MMORPG:Solo edition or MMORPG: Group Content Only. The genre is small enough, and your selfish needs in game is asking for gaming companies to split them even more.
Sometimes, you can't always have what you want.
But in reality we get country bars, and rock n roll bars.
Playing both in the same club, makes no one happy.
That's when you try to split the baby. It doesn't really work.
But, like I stated earlier, the Devs have stated already groups will make a minimum of 3X xp of solo players. I think that's pretty good, so it may work out to be a good grouping game.
If you aren't happy because you are making less XP solo, you can go play Wow.
Yes there is no such game, but there are games where grouping is the only realistic way of progressing, because every other way of doing things ends up being a mind boggling, uninteresting grind.
I look at games like EQ, EQ2 (when it started out), FFXI...
I have never stated I want to progress just as fast as in a group, in fact, because you will gain more XP in a group (which is the way it's supposed to be imo) you'll progress faster.
Grouping should also provide greater rewards in accordance to the difficulty of getting the group together and dealing with other people.
And I fully expect this to be in the game.
What I don't want, is having no realisitc or interesting option in progressing your character on your own, people should be able to log in and do their own thing if they so choose, and they will.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Outside of select dungeons or elite content, you can pretty much progress faster solo in WOW, LotRO, and Aion just to name a few. (assuming you're not talking about powerleveling)
Not sure what games you've been playing.
Sounds like SWTOR might be taking a good path, providing extra rewards for those willing to group up. I'm glad to see dev's starting to think more like this again.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Quote button seems to be hit and miss.
Anyway, I agree that grouping should be faster leveling, and for solo it's ok to be slower leveling, as long as there is always something to do.
I don't advocate making zero content for solo play. What wold be the point in that?
It's hard to balance. you have to do TWO things. One, you have to provide content for solo and group. And hopefully not "scaled" content, because for me that feels like cheating.
Two, you have to provide enough of a bonus for groups so it's worthwhile to put up wiht forming one, BUT not so much bonus that the solo players feel like soloing is a lost cause.
I hope they get it right.
As mentioned above, when you take into account travel time, talking with other players, deciding on where to go, people going link dead, etc., and the XP rates, it's actually faster to solo to the cap in WoW, which is why so many people do it.