I was replying on the OP, not on every other post on the thread including yours.
You were just going on your general "WoW is so great and all other MMO's suck" rant (though blissfully not with that 2nd part in your post this time).
So basically you were replying on a generic thread, non-WoW forumthread, as you always do: 'if you want to enjoy leveling, go play WoW the way I suggested'.
Stunning.
No you were referring to me without giving elements to why levels are trivial if you want them to be trivial (with the option of putting experience off - just like in EQ btw).
I showed that putting off experience option gains is a decent solution to the OP's problem.
YOU decide how or not to level. A very valid added point to this discussion....
I suggest you look more into what BLIZZARD is doing as ... they simply have more resources in their hands than probably 95% of all other developpers combined.
So I rather refer to the market leader in MMO's (and guys like Rob Pardo) when viewing some discussions.
You know the kind of guys that actually MAKE games work instead of losing time about a rather old problem of leveling these days.
Old because it is fast and even as fast as or as slow as the user himself wants it to be...
So you don't have to ignore me, you simply ignore Blizzard techniques (...) as the market leader.
That's stunning.
Yeah, yeah, you're always going on about how everyone should look at how Blizzard is doing things and how WoW beats all the other MMO's in every aspect someone can think of and how awesome Rob Pardo is and sucky the rest... frankly, in the few weeks that I've started visiting here more I've grown tired of seeing you post the same message over and over again in all these threads around no matter what the OP was. But give me a few more of your posts, and I can predict how your response will be on whatever subject, because that's what you sound like, a broken record stuck on the WoW happy song.
And for the record, I do not hate WoW, I like it, and I do not think the way Blizzard does things should be ignored; but neither do I think Blizzard is the Second Coming what you apparently seem to think with a dedication that almost feels religious.
On topic: the leveling system as it is now in many current MMO's is in need of a revision or a make over. When you level the first time it's nice to see all the content, but when you make your second and third alt many people want to reach end level content as fast as possible. So it's a shame that 80-90% of the content will be rendered obsolete and forgotten within a few months, while MMO's are built to last for many months more, even years if possible.
EVE Online is a good example of how things can be done differently. Progression is one of the key elements of a MMO, but the level range system is just one way to measure that, and I'm curious to see how upcoming games like TSW or GW2 will do it. Most importantly, whether it's character leveling or gear leveling or skill leveling, I think a game has done it right when it doesn't feel like a grind (even if it is).
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You seem like a reasonable person, maybe you can explain to me how acquiring new skills and gaining more powerful items is fundamentally any different than "leveling up".
This
Enough said.
Leveling up implies upgrading. As in, when you "level up" you turn your Fireball +1 into Fireball +2.
However, if you continue to progress instead of leveling up, I take it to mean you instead gain a Pyroblast skill which does damage over time or maybe is instant cast. You still have your Fireball +1 that you had before, but now you also have Pyroblast.
As someone earlier said, you become more robust - more varied and have more options and tactical choices rather then gaining a more powerful spell. Does this make you more powerful overall? Yes. Of course it does. But it does so in a much more varied and interesting way, allowing for strategy and player skill to come into play. In a traditional "level up" system, Fireball +2 is ALWAYS better then Fireball +1 (don't talk to me about downranking bs) but having more tactical options doesn't neccessarily mean better.
The player with Pyroblast might be able to finish off another player or monster faster because it is instant cast, but maybe it also requires a lot more mana and has a longer cooldown time then Fireball so you have to decide when best to use it. Where as the newer player could just spam Fireball and still theoreticaly defeat you.
In terms of items and gear, this is much more complicated to do. If you end the "level up" process with gear that has maybe something like +6 strength, then a "more powerful" item would be +6 strength AND +2 agility.
Or you could use item sets and set bonuses to differentiate the "more powerful" gear.
It's just in a traditional "level up" system, you go from something like +1 strength and +1 agility at level 10 to +200 strength and +150 agility at level 80. The level 10 has no chance against the 80.
But if the newer player has +6 strength and the veteran player with "better" gear has +6 strength AND +2 agility and an item set bonus that reduces the cooldown of their Slash ability by 1 second... they definitely have an advantage over the newbie, but not one that is so insanely unbalanced that all competition and risk is removed.
You seem like a reasonable person, maybe you can explain to me how acquiring new skills and gaining more powerful items is fundamentally any different than "leveling up".
This
Enough said.
Leveling up implies upgrading. As in, when you "level up" you turn your Fireball +1 into Fireball +2.
However, if you continue to progress instead of leveling up, I take it to mean you instead gain a Pyroblast skill which does damage over time or maybe is instant cast. You still have your Fireball +1 that you had before, but now you also have Pyroblast.
As someone earlier said, you become more robust - more varied and have more options and tactical choices rather then gaining a more powerful spell. Does this make you more powerful overall? Yes. Of course it does. But it does so in a much more varied and interesting way, allowing for strategy and player skill to come into play. In a traditional "level up" system, Fireball +2 is ALWAYS better then Fireball +1 (don't talk to me about downranking bs) but having more tactical options doesn't neccessarily mean better.
The player with Pyroblast might be able to finish off another player or monster faster because it is instant cast, but maybe it also requires a lot more mana and has a longer cooldown time then Fireball so you have to decide when best to use it. Where as the newer player could just spam Fireball and still theoreticaly defeat you.
In terms of items and gear, this is much more complicated to do. If you end the "level up" process with gear that has maybe something like +6 strength, then a "more powerful" item would be +6 strength AND +2 agility.
Or you could use item sets and set bonuses to differentiate the "more powerful" gear.
It's just in a traditional "level up" system, you go from something like +1 strength and +1 agility at level 10 and +200 strength and +150 agility and level 80. The level 10 has no chance against the 80.
But if the newer player has +6 strength and the veteran player with "better" gear has +6 strength AND +2 agility and an item set bonus that reducing the cooldown of their Slash ability by 1 second... they definitely have an advantage over the newbie, but not one that is so insanely unbalanced that all competition and risk is removed.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
This also allows for more varied and strategic content.
In a traditional "level up" MMORPG, at level 10 you may have 1000 health and hit for 100 damage.
Then at level 50 you have 5000 health and hit for 500 damage.
That in its most simplistic form is the EQ/WoW formula. Party and Raid content is simply enemies that have so much more health and do so much more damage, you have to have dedicated healers, tanks, and DPS.
Fundamentally though, it is NO different from a solo enemy in terms of the fact that you are really just trading hit points.
I hit you for 50, you hit me for 40. I have more health, so I win.
It's sandwich combat disquised by things like cooldowns.
But if you stop the leveling curve early, then the "end game" content can be a lot more challenging and tactical.
Maybe you start fighting groups of enemies rather then single pulls, so you have to keep your distance, use crowd control, line of site, or collision detection to keep yourself from getting swarmed and surrounded.
Maybe you start fighting enemies that use more advanced abilities like you gain. They don't hit any harder or have any more health, but they start using DoT's and healing themselves and casting debuffs and such.
The point is, things become more complex and challenging NATURALLY instead of the numbers involved simply getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
But if the newer player has +6 strength and the veteran player with "better" gear has +6 strength AND +2 agility and an item set bonus that reduces the cooldown of their Slash ability by 1 second... they definitely have an advantage over the newbie, but not one that is so insanely unbalanced that all competition and risk is removed.
So your conclusion is that a level system creates a greater power gap than a gear system? I think you have been playing WoW too much and its gotten to your head. All you have said is that you don't like WoW's specific implementation of levels. With that, I would agree, but not all games implement levels just like WoW. There is no rule saying that you can't have levels create a small power gap and gear create a big power gap.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
So your conclusion is that a level system creates a greater power gap than a gear system? I think you have been playing WoW too much and its gotten to your head. All you have said is that you don't like WoW's specific implementation of levels. With that, I would agree, but not all games implement levels just like WoW. There is no rule saying that you can't have levels create a small power gap and gear create a big power gap.
I just think neither gear NOR levels should create that big of a power gap.
PvP is suppose to be about player skill and strategy, experience and tactics, coordination and preperation - not stats.
PvE is suppose to be about adventure and discovery, team work and cooperation, story and characters - not stats.
Gear and levels can be used as a supplement for hard-working players who may not be the most skilled players - but it should not be a REPLACEMENT for player skill.
Don't think a game like cod as mmorpg would be great imo.
Dying in a few seconds, or headshot = death no thanks that's why I play mmorpgs because it's fantasy and everyone can survive some hits before he's dead so it provides more strategy/tactics.
You still haven't say 1 mmorpg excluding eve but I'm not sure on that one if it's like that were a newb can have a chance on beating veterans.
Don't think a game like cod as mmorpg would be great imo.
Dying in a few seconds, or headshot = death no thanks that's why I play mmorpgs because it's fantasy and everyone can survive some hits before he's dead so it provides more strategy/tactics.
You still haven't say 1 mmorpg excluding eve but I'm not sure on that one if it's like that were a newb can have a chance on beating veterans.
Who said anything about headshots and insta-gibs?
These things are FAR more likely in a stat based MMORPG then in one like I propose. Because you cannot out-level or out-gear your opponent by ridiculous amounts, combat will always be more about skill and strategy.
There hasn't been a MMORPG like this. I find this unfortunate.
Ultima Online was the closest thing, simply because it was so old school you could macro your skills/stats to a level to compete with veterans quite literally over night, and there was no gear per say.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
The same can be used in a MMORPG.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
Well then we have to figure out a way to maintain horizontal progression to keep a player base energized without trivializing old content while making PvP unbalanced and completely lop-sided, while at the SAME time allowing some degree of verticle progression to keep players "chasing the carrot" so to speak.
I think one of the best ways to do that is dynamic content.
Why kill the same boss 50 times if you are only killing the boss for loot and thusly verticle progression?
Why keep grinding out PvP if you are only gaining points to spend on loot to increase verticle progression?
You have to create content that is dynamic and intrinsicly valued by players. RvR and territorial control / ownership is a good way to do this in PvP. It has worked for UO, EvE, and DaoC. Players care about controlling resources and land/territory and fight to both protect it and to expand the influence of their corp/guild/realm. This kind of motivation exists OUTSIDE the normal verticle progression and is something many new MMO players don't understand because they've never experienced it.
And because there is no end to it, there is no "best gear" you can get and as such you are always fighting to keep what you have and take what you want, the motivation to keep playing and thusly keep subscribing exists outside of the "carrot on a stick" mentality.
Don't think a game like cod as mmorpg would be great imo.
Dying in a few seconds, or headshot = death no thanks that's why I play mmorpgs because it's fantasy and everyone can survive some hits before he's dead so it provides more strategy/tactics.
You still haven't say 1 mmorpg excluding eve but I'm not sure on that one if it's like that were a newb can have a chance on beating veterans.
Who said anything about headshots and insta-gibs?
These things are FAR more likely in a stat based MMORPG then in one like I propose. Because you cannot out-level or out-gear your opponent by ridiculous amounts, combat will always be more about skill and strategy.
There hasn't been a MMORPG like this. I find this unfortunate.
Ultima Online was the closest thing, simply because it was so old school you could macro your skills/stats to a level to compete with veterans quite literally over night, and there was no gear per say.
It's pretty hard to make a game like that balance is hard to make near 100%.
Never played UO myself so can't comment there but if there are stats let's say max 100 per stat and you are limited on how many points you can use in total then yes it COuLD make something like that BUT the veterans vs newbs will still have a little advantage over them and so it should be.
My opinion is why should a guy lvl 15 beat a guy who spent weeks/months to get to lvl 60 (to say it with levels) easily when the guy that been playing longer had more expierence in the game so more knowledge in battles ecc unless he's dumb.
Let's assume he's not bad why should the lvl 15 beat easily the lvl 60?
A guy that has spent lots of hours playing and upped many levels,collected gear and whatnot should ALWAYS have a bit more chance on beating someone more if it's a new character.
There should be some restriction so that new people can have a chance on reaching the higher level but being able to beat a veteran easily no I can't agree with it.
Never played UO myself so can't comment there but if there are stats let's say max 100 per stat and you are limited on how many points you can use in total then yes it COuLD make something like that BUT the veterans vs newbs will still have a little advantage over them and so it should be.
My opinion is why should a guy lvl 15 beat a guy who spent weeks/months to get to lvl 60 (to say it with levels) easily when the guy that been playing longer had more expierence in the game so more knowledge in battles ecc unless he's dumb.
Let's assume he's not bad why should the lvl 15 beat easily the lvl 60?
A guy that has spent lots of hours playing and upped many levels,collected gear and whatnot should ALWAYS have a bit more chance on beating someone more if it's a new character.
There should be some restriction so that new people can have a chance on reaching the higher level but being able to beat a veteran easily no I can't agree with it.
And I agree with you.
The veterans always have the advantage because they have so many more tools at their disposal.
But it is up to them to use those skills and tools effectively. They don't get an "I WIN" button for playing for a long time, but they definitely get the inherant advantage.
And since they have been playing longer they should be fairly well versed and experienced with the game mechanics right? So that's another advantage they have over the new character.
well, I like the leveling, building your character bit by bit.
^This^, as long as it's a skill building based system IMO. That doesn't mean it can't be class based mind you, it just has to give me the ability to make a good character or make a bad character. I'm sure a lot of people will think WTF, why would you want to make a bad character?
The answer is simple, if you make bad choices you net bad results, the opposite holds true based on good decisions. This creates true consequence and reward based gameplay. It also forces one to pay attaention to the finer points of a game, as to understand what is important about a certain build and what isn't.
@ OP:
Doing away with this would be throwing out the best part about any RPG, your connection to your character, there's nothing of you built it into it, making it meaningless and no longer an RPG IMO.
What you want is an action game, that's the number one problem in the genre today. They've been doing away with what made these games unique and replacing those aspects with meaningless action sequences. All because people have forgotten these were at one time RPG games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
The same can be used in a MMORPG.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
to you it may be boring, and maybe its not for everyone. but thats ok those that want vertical progression can go play one of the other games out there. how about a game add fun as a motivating factor instead of uber gear and uber stats.
I look at a game like Bad company 2 and see the FPS genre has figured it out so why can't the MMO genre? because people are stuck inside this box that they must get bigger numbers and collect pixels (levels and gear) in order to have progression of their character.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
The same can be used in a MMORPG.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
to you it may be boring, and maybe its not for everyone. but thats ok those that want vertical progression can go play one of the other games out there. how about a game add fun as a motivating factor instead of uber gear and uber stats.
I look at a game like Bad company 2 and see the FPS genre has figured it out so why can't the MMO genre? because people are stuck inside this box that they must get bigger numbers and collect pixels (levels and gear) in order to have progression of their character.
There is certainly room for the MMO to have more genres than RPG and we are starting to see companies branch out into those now.There will always be MMORPGs and a market for them but the MMO market doe sneed more diversity like it's "offline" sibling has in abundance.
well, I like the leveling, building your character bit by bit.
^This^, as long as it's a skill building based system IMO. That doesn't mean it can't be class based mind you, it just has to give me the ability to make a good character or make a bad character. I'm sure a lot of people will think WTF, why would you want to make a bad character?
The answer is simple, if you make bad choices you net bad results, the opposite holds true based on good decisions. This creates true consequence and reward based gameplay. It also forces one to pay attaention to the finer points of a game, as to understand what is important about a certain build and what isn't.
@ OP:
Doing away with this would be throwing out the best part about any RPG, your connection to your character, there's nothing of you built it into it, making it meaningless and no longer an RPG IMO.
What you want is an action game, that's the number one problem in the genre today. They've been doing away with what made these games unique and replacing those aspects with meaningless action sequences. All because people have forgotten these were at one time RPG games.
sorry but thats just nonsense, RPGs have always been about the story and the adventure, not LEVELING. even in final fantasy i never worried about leveling, I went through the story and my characters got to the appropriate level. do that in an MMO and maybe maybe i would agree with you ... and no doing 10000 kill 12 of X, Y or Z mob and return to me isn't an adventure.
maybe what developers should do is create 50 good quests that are innovative and fun and every quest you complete of those you get a level.
I see a game like EVE with a mix of planetside as the ideal solution. where as you can train your skills offline and online, but they don't get more powerful, it opens up more tools to make your character more robut, like planetside. where yes there were levels but you didn't gain more HP or more mana, if you were level 25 your machine gun didnt do more damage than a level 1.
you just had more options, you could be a medic, a sniper, a pilot all on the same character while the level 1 could only be 1 of those.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
The same can be used in a MMORPG.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
to you it may be boring, and maybe its not for everyone. but thats ok those that want vertical progression can go play one of the other games out there. how about a game add fun as a motivating factor instead of uber gear and uber stats.
I look at a game like Bad company 2 and see the FPS genre has figured it out so why can't the MMO genre? because people are stuck inside this box that they must get bigger numbers and collect pixels (levels and gear) in order to have progression of their character.
The MMO genre is a class by itself. Just because certain things work in a different genre doesn't mean it will necessarily work in another. MMO games are designed to offer character progression like no other, it is what defines distinction among the various players of a given server.
You are also assuming that people do not like to level. On any given game, I try to progress my character in all aspects: Crafting, Faction, Leveling, and Social. When I mean social I mean I like to be in one of the top guilds on any given server, to facilitate my needs and desires to have the best and rarest recipes, access to the hardest raids, help when leveling, and help when getting faction up. These things are my enjoyment in the MMO genre. The idea here is that it is not necessarily the end game, but the process to get to it, that offers enjoyment and fun to me personally.
For others this may not be the case. Yet for these people, instead of trying to change the concept of a traditional MMO, I ask, why not try a different genre? It might suit you better, and offer you less complaints (THIS IS NOT AN INSULT, JUST A SUGGESTION).
__________________________________________________________________________________________ "Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
For others this may not be the case. Yet for these people, instead of trying to change the concept of a traditional MMO, I ask, why not try a different genre? It might suit you better, and offer you less complaints (THIS IS NOT AN INSULT, JUST A SUGGESTION).
i've done more in MMORPGs and been more successful in MMORPGs than 95% of the people on thsi forum, so telling me that this may not be a genre for me is just f'n retarded.
that being said i believe that leveling is an outdated mechanic, or at least when it becomes a "hard" number. something you have to get through in order to get to the endgame where the MAJORITY want to be. sorry but look at most games now and the majority of their content is designed for the endgame, thats where developers spend most of their time.
if you got rid of the whole leveling nonsense, the developers could concentrate on content for every type of gamer. good rewards solo content, group content raid content, PVP content, crafting content, roleplay content but now they spend so much tme on itemization (making sure the new gear is better than old gear) tweaking the leveling curve, class vs class balance.
all this could go away if there were no items that gave you uber stats, no level curve tweaking needed and i see a lot less whining in a game like EVE when it comes to skills than in other games.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
The MMO genre is a class by itself. Just because certain things work in a different genre doesn't mean it will necessarily work in another. MMO games are designed to offer character progression like no other, it is what defines distinction among the various players of a given server.
You are also assuming that people do not like to level. On any given game, I try to progress my character in all aspects: Crafting, Faction, Leveling, and Social. When I mean social I mean I like to be in one of the top guilds on any given server, to facilitate my needs and desires to have the best and rarest recipes, access to the hardest raids, help when leveling, and help when getting faction up. These things are my enjoyment in the MMO genre. The idea here is that it is not necessarily the end game, but the process to get to it, that offers enjoyment and fun to me personally.
For others this may not be the case. Yet for these people, instead of trying to change the concept of a traditional MMO, I ask, why not try a different genre? It might suit you better, and offer you less complaints (THIS IS NOT AN INSULT, JUST A SUGGESTION).
The thing is MMOs are not just defined by character progression but also the existence of a persistent world. I like 'traditional' MMOs just like you but I don't see many games out there that cater for players who want a persistent world but don't enjoy that levelling process. It would be better if games of both types are made because I doubt there is a one-size fits all solution and it is a case where a compromise suits no one.
well, I like the leveling, building your character bit by bit.
^This^, as long as it's a skill building based system IMO. That doesn't mean it can't be class based mind you, it just has to give me the ability to make a good character or make a bad character. I'm sure a lot of people will think WTF, why would you want to make a bad character?
The answer is simple, if you make bad choices you net bad results, the opposite holds true based on good decisions. This creates true consequence and reward based gameplay. It also forces one to pay attaention to the finer points of a game, as to understand what is important about a certain build and what isn't.
@ OP:
Doing away with this would be throwing out the best part about any RPG, your connection to your character, there's nothing of you built it into it, making it meaningless and no longer an RPG IMO.
What you want is an action game, that's the number one problem in the genre today. They've been doing away with what made these games unique and replacing those aspects with meaningless action sequences. All because people have forgotten these were at one time RPG games.
sorry but thats just nonsense, RPGs have always been about the story and the adventure, not LEVELING. even in final fantasy i never worried about leveling, I went through the story and my characters got to the appropriate level. do that in an MMO and maybe maybe i would agree with you ... and no doing 10000 kill 12 of X, Y or Z mob and return to me isn't an adventure.
I think you misunderstood the fact that, that is my opinion of what's important about an RPG. Calling it nonsense dosen't change my opinion.
It depends on whether you enjoy the game you're playing IMO. I hated leveling in WOW, quit at around 50 or so I just couldn't do it anymore. IN SWG I never felt as though I was leveling (skills), I was always having fun, so it was just a bonus that I was getting experience. That's what IMO is important, if you are having fun you're not thinking about the leveling.
Most MMO's have crappy quests BTW, that's why I rarely play the typical thempark games, if I want quests I'll play single player RPG's like Oblivion or Morrowind. Though I will say the quests in AOC weren't to bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I do believe that the "traditional" MMO formula of RPG stat - based progression is no longer as savvy and hip as it once was.
Maybe back when being a high level actually meant something, but now no matter what game it is, the leveling up process is usually just an extended tutorial and a "grind" to get you to the "end game."
Being a level 60 in WoW actually meant something back in the day. Not that you had the patience to grind through 60 levels but that you were skilled enough to survive the 40+ zones. You pretty much had to have friends and guild support to get from 40-60 because you had to do dungeon runs due to gaps in quest content and the much higher number of group quests.
There were only a few raid guilds on each server due to the 40 person raid groups, so most people once they did hit 60 participated in PvP, crafting, and dungeon running. Back then you had to know your class very well to be successful at even the dungeon runs, and raiding you had to be top 10% on your server. And this was NOT in gear levels but in skill. Having epics meant something. It meant you had done your time learning to play your character and learning to play it well.
Those who were carried through dungeons and early raids for gear proved themselves to be the bad players they were when they got to the harder content.
Even the 5-person dungeons required knowledge and skill and proper use of Crowd Control, removing debuffs, and skillful tanking.
It was a much different game, and it was very segregated, which is a bad thing - yet at the same time it actually meant something to be a high level character in a decent guild.
Ever since, they have made the level up process more and more solo friendly and easier and easier. By itself, that is just fine as it brings more players to the game but at the same time it is terrible because it doesn't teach new players how to properly play their class in a group environment, and it showed once you got up to 70 in Burning Crusade and started running the Heroic dungeons, which were actually quite difficult, it showed.
Of course as they kept releasing new content and new tiers of gear, the heroics got easier and easier. This is true of any tiered content release system. True of any stat based verticle progression.
Then Wrath of the Lich King came along and made heroics a joke, raiding piss easy in the first tier, but at the same time made questing 10x times better and more interesting and improved crafting to actually serve a purpose, even if it was to just buff you up for PvE/PvP.
They ruined PvP in that game a long time ago when it all became about farming points to buy gear.
The point is -
Most new MMOs are STARTING their life at the Wrath of the Lich king level of insanely badly designed progression systems, without the solid base and history to support it - and they are failing.
We need something new. Something original.
Why do you think they are redoing 1-60 in the next expansion Cataclysm? Because they know it is crap and people don't want to do it anymore!
leveling should be optional. enough players hate it to warrant this. if i dont like being a lowb for 6 months, i shouldnt have to pay for it. and i dont! as soon as the level grind gets boring, i dump the sub.
for those who like to go through the leveling path, let them choose to start as a powerless level 1. i for one and drawn to end game complete characters. i dont feel "pride" or "saticfaction" after grinding some pixelated cartoon through an increasing series of proportionally boring tasks.
if a game doesnt lean heavy on the end game, its a waste of time. that said, dont waste my time getting there.
And the reason for the progression. The reason most MMOs suck isn't the games themselves, it's the people who rush to some self-created vision of an end-game -- that's what ruins MMOs. Those people should be playing multiplayer combat games, like Quake. Instead, they come into MMOs and whine about how they suck because they don't conform to their multiplayer console mentailty. Very sad.
its not the concept of endgame that sucks, its the fact the many developers fails to make quality endgame content.
this is so because tradition of jamming busy work, in the form of cash cow time wasting leveling, is so entrenched in the minds of so many MMO players.
i agree, bad painter paints bad. this doesent mean painting as an art form is bad. same principle goes for end game design.
i restate, however, give the option of creating a max level toon at creation, will all point free to distribute as you see it right then and there.
im willing to bet that even the most devoted levelers would begin to just push the "endgame" button...
Comments
Yeah, yeah, you're always going on about how everyone should look at how Blizzard is doing things and how WoW beats all the other MMO's in every aspect someone can think of and how awesome Rob Pardo is and sucky the rest... frankly, in the few weeks that I've started visiting here more I've grown tired of seeing you post the same message over and over again in all these threads around no matter what the OP was. But give me a few more of your posts, and I can predict how your response will be on whatever subject, because that's what you sound like, a broken record stuck on the WoW happy song.
And for the record, I do not hate WoW, I like it, and I do not think the way Blizzard does things should be ignored; but neither do I think Blizzard is the Second Coming what you apparently seem to think with a dedication that almost feels religious.
On topic: the leveling system as it is now in many current MMO's is in need of a revision or a make over. When you level the first time it's nice to see all the content, but when you make your second and third alt many people want to reach end level content as fast as possible. So it's a shame that 80-90% of the content will be rendered obsolete and forgotten within a few months, while MMO's are built to last for many months more, even years if possible.
EVE Online is a good example of how things can be done differently. Progression is one of the key elements of a MMO, but the level range system is just one way to measure that, and I'm curious to see how upcoming games like TSW or GW2 will do it. Most importantly, whether it's character leveling or gear leveling or skill leveling, I think a game has done it right when it doesn't feel like a grind (even if it is).
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Leveling up implies upgrading. As in, when you "level up" you turn your Fireball +1 into Fireball +2.
However, if you continue to progress instead of leveling up, I take it to mean you instead gain a Pyroblast skill which does damage over time or maybe is instant cast. You still have your Fireball +1 that you had before, but now you also have Pyroblast.
As someone earlier said, you become more robust - more varied and have more options and tactical choices rather then gaining a more powerful spell. Does this make you more powerful overall? Yes. Of course it does. But it does so in a much more varied and interesting way, allowing for strategy and player skill to come into play. In a traditional "level up" system, Fireball +2 is ALWAYS better then Fireball +1 (don't talk to me about downranking bs) but having more tactical options doesn't neccessarily mean better.
The player with Pyroblast might be able to finish off another player or monster faster because it is instant cast, but maybe it also requires a lot more mana and has a longer cooldown time then Fireball so you have to decide when best to use it. Where as the newer player could just spam Fireball and still theoreticaly defeat you.
In terms of items and gear, this is much more complicated to do. If you end the "level up" process with gear that has maybe something like +6 strength, then a "more powerful" item would be +6 strength AND +2 agility.
Or you could use item sets and set bonuses to differentiate the "more powerful" gear.
It's just in a traditional "level up" system, you go from something like +1 strength and +1 agility at level 10 to +200 strength and +150 agility at level 80. The level 10 has no chance against the 80.
But if the newer player has +6 strength and the veteran player with "better" gear has +6 strength AND +2 agility and an item set bonus that reduces the cooldown of their Slash ability by 1 second... they definitely have an advantage over the newbie, but not one that is so insanely unbalanced that all competition and risk is removed.
You are still leveling but instead of having a number showing and stats automatically used you have to manually spend them.
That doesn't change the fact your still leveling but instead of showing lvl xx you have stat points.
Don't get your spell example since you do that thing in leveling games too, you buy/learn fireball then when you reach x level you can upgrade it. Now if it were stat based you would need maybe xx inteligence to upgrade it so you still had to "level" to buy/learn the upgraded spell.
As for your last pharagraph let's talk about darkfall you think a newbie can beat a veteran? yea no way so until they make one that works like that (excluding eve I think it works something similar but I don't like scifi spaceships)it's useless saying anything.
This also allows for more varied and strategic content.
In a traditional "level up" MMORPG, at level 10 you may have 1000 health and hit for 100 damage.
Then at level 50 you have 5000 health and hit for 500 damage.
That in its most simplistic form is the EQ/WoW formula. Party and Raid content is simply enemies that have so much more health and do so much more damage, you have to have dedicated healers, tanks, and DPS.
Fundamentally though, it is NO different from a solo enemy in terms of the fact that you are really just trading hit points.
I hit you for 50, you hit me for 40. I have more health, so I win.
It's sandwich combat disquised by things like cooldowns.
But if you stop the leveling curve early, then the "end game" content can be a lot more challenging and tactical.
Maybe you start fighting groups of enemies rather then single pulls, so you have to keep your distance, use crowd control, line of site, or collision detection to keep yourself from getting swarmed and surrounded.
Maybe you start fighting enemies that use more advanced abilities like you gain. They don't hit any harder or have any more health, but they start using DoT's and healing themselves and casting debuffs and such.
The point is, things become more complex and challenging NATURALLY instead of the numbers involved simply getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
So your conclusion is that a level system creates a greater power gap than a gear system? I think you have been playing WoW too much and its gotten to your head. All you have said is that you don't like WoW's specific implementation of levels. With that, I would agree, but not all games implement levels just like WoW. There is no rule saying that you can't have levels create a small power gap and gear create a big power gap.
Not at all!
Let's try another example... hmmm...
OK let's use Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. A very popular game.
What do you start out with as a noob?
You have guns, in various types from pistols to shotguns and machine guns to snipers, and you have ammo for them. You also have grenades. And that's about it.
As you advance in that game, you unlock new weapons that have different rating for accuracy, damage, speed, reload time... and you also unlock itmes for things like a silencer, a grenade launcher attachement, a motion tracker... and perks that allow you to sprint longer, maybe pick up more ammo, drop a grenade when you die.. etc.
The noob still has the basic tools of being able to shoot and kill you.
But the veteran has different means to do the same thing, not neccessarily better means.
It's horizontal progression.
The veteran player has a lot more tools at their desposal, but the tools are no sharper nor are they more powerful, simply varied and different.
The same can be used in a MMORPG.
I just think neither gear NOR levels should create that big of a power gap.
PvP is suppose to be about player skill and strategy, experience and tactics, coordination and preperation - not stats.
PvE is suppose to be about adventure and discovery, team work and cooperation, story and characters - not stats.
Gear and levels can be used as a supplement for hard-working players who may not be the most skilled players - but it should not be a REPLACEMENT for player skill.
Don't think a game like cod as mmorpg would be great imo.
Dying in a few seconds, or headshot = death no thanks that's why I play mmorpgs because it's fantasy and everyone can survive some hits before he's dead so it provides more strategy/tactics.
You still haven't say 1 mmorpg excluding eve but I'm not sure on that one if it's like that were a newb can have a chance on beating veterans.
Who said anything about headshots and insta-gibs?
These things are FAR more likely in a stat based MMORPG then in one like I propose. Because you cannot out-level or out-gear your opponent by ridiculous amounts, combat will always be more about skill and strategy.
There hasn't been a MMORPG like this. I find this unfortunate.
Ultima Online was the closest thing, simply because it was so old school you could macro your skills/stats to a level to compete with veterans quite literally over night, and there was no gear per say.
I know what you're saying about horizontal progression. Its different than what you were talking about before with gear upgrades and improving skills. That would be vertical progression and it accomplishes the exact same thing as levels.
Post-20 Guild Wars is probably the best example of a horizontal progression game. Its also pretty boring. The majority of gamers expect vertical progression. Remove it and you remove one of the strongest motivating factors that keeps a player subscribed to a game.
Well then we have to figure out a way to maintain horizontal progression to keep a player base energized without trivializing old content while making PvP unbalanced and completely lop-sided, while at the SAME time allowing some degree of verticle progression to keep players "chasing the carrot" so to speak.
I think one of the best ways to do that is dynamic content.
Why kill the same boss 50 times if you are only killing the boss for loot and thusly verticle progression?
Why keep grinding out PvP if you are only gaining points to spend on loot to increase verticle progression?
You have to create content that is dynamic and intrinsicly valued by players. RvR and territorial control / ownership is a good way to do this in PvP. It has worked for UO, EvE, and DaoC. Players care about controlling resources and land/territory and fight to both protect it and to expand the influence of their corp/guild/realm. This kind of motivation exists OUTSIDE the normal verticle progression and is something many new MMO players don't understand because they've never experienced it.
And because there is no end to it, there is no "best gear" you can get and as such you are always fighting to keep what you have and take what you want, the motivation to keep playing and thusly keep subscribing exists outside of the "carrot on a stick" mentality.
How do we do the same for PvE?
It's pretty hard to make a game like that balance is hard to make near 100%.
Never played UO myself so can't comment there but if there are stats let's say max 100 per stat and you are limited on how many points you can use in total then yes it COuLD make something like that BUT the veterans vs newbs will still have a little advantage over them and so it should be.
My opinion is why should a guy lvl 15 beat a guy who spent weeks/months to get to lvl 60 (to say it with levels) easily when the guy that been playing longer had more expierence in the game so more knowledge in battles ecc unless he's dumb.
Let's assume he's not bad why should the lvl 15 beat easily the lvl 60?
A guy that has spent lots of hours playing and upped many levels,collected gear and whatnot should ALWAYS have a bit more chance on beating someone more if it's a new character.
There should be some restriction so that new people can have a chance on reaching the higher level but being able to beat a veteran easily no I can't agree with it.
And I agree with you.
The veterans always have the advantage because they have so many more tools at their disposal.
But it is up to them to use those skills and tools effectively. They don't get an "I WIN" button for playing for a long time, but they definitely get the inherant advantage.
And since they have been playing longer they should be fairly well versed and experienced with the game mechanics right? So that's another advantage they have over the new character.
^This^, as long as it's a skill building based system IMO. That doesn't mean it can't be class based mind you, it just has to give me the ability to make a good character or make a bad character. I'm sure a lot of people will think WTF, why would you want to make a bad character?
The answer is simple, if you make bad choices you net bad results, the opposite holds true based on good decisions. This creates true consequence and reward based gameplay. It also forces one to pay attaention to the finer points of a game, as to understand what is important about a certain build and what isn't.
@ OP:
Doing away with this would be throwing out the best part about any RPG, your connection to your character, there's nothing of you built it into it, making it meaningless and no longer an RPG IMO.
What you want is an action game, that's the number one problem in the genre today. They've been doing away with what made these games unique and replacing those aspects with meaningless action sequences. All because people have forgotten these were at one time RPG games.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
to you it may be boring, and maybe its not for everyone. but thats ok those that want vertical progression can go play one of the other games out there. how about a game add fun as a motivating factor instead of uber gear and uber stats.
I look at a game like Bad company 2 and see the FPS genre has figured it out so why can't the MMO genre? because people are stuck inside this box that they must get bigger numbers and collect pixels (levels and gear) in order to have progression of their character.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
There is certainly room for the MMO to have more genres than RPG and we are starting to see companies branch out into those now.There will always be MMORPGs and a market for them but the MMO market doe sneed more diversity like it's "offline" sibling has in abundance.
sorry but thats just nonsense, RPGs have always been about the story and the adventure, not LEVELING. even in final fantasy i never worried about leveling, I went through the story and my characters got to the appropriate level. do that in an MMO and maybe maybe i would agree with you ... and no doing 10000 kill 12 of X, Y or Z mob and return to me isn't an adventure.
maybe what developers should do is create 50 good quests that are innovative and fun and every quest you complete of those you get a level.
I see a game like EVE with a mix of planetside as the ideal solution. where as you can train your skills offline and online, but they don't get more powerful, it opens up more tools to make your character more robut, like planetside. where yes there were levels but you didn't gain more HP or more mana, if you were level 25 your machine gun didnt do more damage than a level 1.
you just had more options, you could be a medic, a sniper, a pilot all on the same character while the level 1 could only be 1 of those.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
The MMO genre is a class by itself. Just because certain things work in a different genre doesn't mean it will necessarily work in another. MMO games are designed to offer character progression like no other, it is what defines distinction among the various players of a given server.
You are also assuming that people do not like to level. On any given game, I try to progress my character in all aspects: Crafting, Faction, Leveling, and Social. When I mean social I mean I like to be in one of the top guilds on any given server, to facilitate my needs and desires to have the best and rarest recipes, access to the hardest raids, help when leveling, and help when getting faction up. These things are my enjoyment in the MMO genre. The idea here is that it is not necessarily the end game, but the process to get to it, that offers enjoyment and fun to me personally.
For others this may not be the case. Yet for these people, instead of trying to change the concept of a traditional MMO, I ask, why not try a different genre? It might suit you better, and offer you less complaints (THIS IS NOT AN INSULT, JUST A SUGGESTION).
__________________________________________________________________________________________
"Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
i've done more in MMORPGs and been more successful in MMORPGs than 95% of the people on thsi forum, so telling me that this may not be a genre for me is just f'n retarded.
that being said i believe that leveling is an outdated mechanic, or at least when it becomes a "hard" number. something you have to get through in order to get to the endgame where the MAJORITY want to be. sorry but look at most games now and the majority of their content is designed for the endgame, thats where developers spend most of their time.
if you got rid of the whole leveling nonsense, the developers could concentrate on content for every type of gamer. good rewards solo content, group content raid content, PVP content, crafting content, roleplay content but now they spend so much tme on itemization (making sure the new gear is better than old gear) tweaking the leveling curve, class vs class balance.
all this could go away if there were no items that gave you uber stats, no level curve tweaking needed and i see a lot less whining in a game like EVE when it comes to skills than in other games.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
The thing is MMOs are not just defined by character progression but also the existence of a persistent world. I like 'traditional' MMOs just like you but I don't see many games out there that cater for players who want a persistent world but don't enjoy that levelling process. It would be better if games of both types are made because I doubt there is a one-size fits all solution and it is a case where a compromise suits no one.
I think you misunderstood the fact that, that is my opinion of what's important about an RPG. Calling it nonsense dosen't change my opinion.
It depends on whether you enjoy the game you're playing IMO. I hated leveling in WOW, quit at around 50 or so I just couldn't do it anymore. IN SWG I never felt as though I was leveling (skills), I was always having fun, so it was just a bonus that I was getting experience. That's what IMO is important, if you are having fun you're not thinking about the leveling.
Most MMO's have crappy quests BTW, that's why I rarely play the typical thempark games, if I want quests I'll play single player RPG's like Oblivion or Morrowind. Though I will say the quests in AOC weren't to bad.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I do believe that the "traditional" MMO formula of RPG stat - based progression is no longer as savvy and hip as it once was.
Maybe back when being a high level actually meant something, but now no matter what game it is, the leveling up process is usually just an extended tutorial and a "grind" to get you to the "end game."
Being a level 60 in WoW actually meant something back in the day. Not that you had the patience to grind through 60 levels but that you were skilled enough to survive the 40+ zones. You pretty much had to have friends and guild support to get from 40-60 because you had to do dungeon runs due to gaps in quest content and the much higher number of group quests.
There were only a few raid guilds on each server due to the 40 person raid groups, so most people once they did hit 60 participated in PvP, crafting, and dungeon running. Back then you had to know your class very well to be successful at even the dungeon runs, and raiding you had to be top 10% on your server. And this was NOT in gear levels but in skill. Having epics meant something. It meant you had done your time learning to play your character and learning to play it well.
Those who were carried through dungeons and early raids for gear proved themselves to be the bad players they were when they got to the harder content.
Even the 5-person dungeons required knowledge and skill and proper use of Crowd Control, removing debuffs, and skillful tanking.
It was a much different game, and it was very segregated, which is a bad thing - yet at the same time it actually meant something to be a high level character in a decent guild.
Ever since, they have made the level up process more and more solo friendly and easier and easier. By itself, that is just fine as it brings more players to the game but at the same time it is terrible because it doesn't teach new players how to properly play their class in a group environment, and it showed once you got up to 70 in Burning Crusade and started running the Heroic dungeons, which were actually quite difficult, it showed.
Of course as they kept releasing new content and new tiers of gear, the heroics got easier and easier. This is true of any tiered content release system. True of any stat based verticle progression.
Then Wrath of the Lich King came along and made heroics a joke, raiding piss easy in the first tier, but at the same time made questing 10x times better and more interesting and improved crafting to actually serve a purpose, even if it was to just buff you up for PvE/PvP.
They ruined PvP in that game a long time ago when it all became about farming points to buy gear.
The point is -
Most new MMOs are STARTING their life at the Wrath of the Lich king level of insanely badly designed progression systems, without the solid base and history to support it - and they are failing.
We need something new. Something original.
Why do you think they are redoing 1-60 in the next expansion Cataclysm? Because they know it is crap and people don't want to do it anymore!
leveling should be optional. enough players hate it to warrant this. if i dont like being a lowb for 6 months, i shouldnt have to pay for it. and i dont! as soon as the level grind gets boring, i dump the sub.
for those who like to go through the leveling path, let them choose to start as a powerless level 1. i for one and drawn to end game complete characters. i dont feel "pride" or "saticfaction" after grinding some pixelated cartoon through an increasing series of proportionally boring tasks.
if a game doesnt lean heavy on the end game, its a waste of time. that said, dont waste my time getting there.
And the reason for the progression. The reason most MMOs suck isn't the games themselves, it's the people who rush to some self-created vision of an end-game -- that's what ruins MMOs. Those people should be playing multiplayer combat games, like Quake. Instead, they come into MMOs and whine about how they suck because they don't conform to their multiplayer console mentailty. Very sad.
its not the concept of endgame that sucks, its the fact the many developers fails to make quality endgame content.
this is so because tradition of jamming busy work, in the form of cash cow time wasting leveling, is so entrenched in the minds of so many MMO players.
i agree, bad painter paints bad. this doesent mean painting as an art form is bad. same principle goes for end game design.
i restate, however, give the option of creating a max level toon at creation, will all point free to distribute as you see it right then and there.
im willing to bet that even the most devoted levelers would begin to just push the "endgame" button...