See the solution to this is give both alternatives, Guild wars works this out wonderfully. They will ether let you select a maximum level maximum gear character to jump right into the great PvP the game has. Or you can go and finish a story campaign and take that character to PvP later. Its really you're choice.
Another thing guild wars does excellent is they don't make their game a pure grind. The story is interesting, has cinematics to keep you interested overall just really good story telling.
Quests are rarely kill X number of Y mobs and usually involve you getting to a story mission or trigger a story objective. Even side quests have to do a lot with storyline.
I actually don't play mmorpg games anymore but try to focus more on what I see are the superior but under represented mini games in the Genre.
Games like Hellgate London, Guild wars, Phantasy star, and a few other's that will be out soon including Monster Hunter. Enjoyable, Low grind in comparison to mmorpg games, good communities, and good story.
Sure the games may not last as long (Because grinding does extend game play longitude) but for the 3 years or so these games do stay alive, they are much more enjoyable than any mmorpg game I have played thus far. I could name a list of over 30 mmo's I have tried and only 2 I have some what enjoyed.
Keep in mind that for many players, like myself, steadily growing more powerful IS what lets up happily play the game. Jumping right to the end or being at max powers/abilities from the start sounds very dull.
While a valid opinion from and achiever type player, I have to disagree as an explorer type player. I find that after 9 years of MMOs I am really tired of the off balanced grind. I mean off balanced as you have to do repeatable quests a hundred or two hundred times to get a level just a little after mid game, or grind thousands of mobs. *cough*Aion, Liniage 2, etc*cough*
As an explorer type, there is just no gear in the world I'm willing to kill 250+ of the same mobs for. No I do not like grinding a dungeon a hundred times to get a weapon that has a 1% drop rate at lvl 35 of a 50 level game. hell I'm not willing to do it at cap level for that matter.
I don't particularly mind the concept of leveling itself, what I do mind is poor execution.
Keep in mind that for many players, like myself, steadily growing more powerful IS what lets up happily play the game. Jumping right to the end or being at max powers/abilities from the start sounds very dull.
While a valid opinion from and achiever type player, I have to disagree as an explorer type player. I find that after 9 years of MMOs I am really tired of the off balanced grind. I mean off balanced as you have to do repeatable quests a hundred or two hundred times to get a level just a little after mid game, or grind thousands of mobs. *cough*Aion, Liniage 2, etc*cough*
As an explorer type, there is just no gear in the world I'm willing to kill 250+ of the same mobs for. No I do not like grinding a dungeon a hundred times to get a weapon that has a 1% drop rate at lvl 35 of a 50 level game. hell I'm not willing to do it at cap level for that matter.
I don't particularly mind the concept of leveling itself, what I do mind is poor execution.
Dull is dull. Whether its a level 10 quest or an endgame raid, if the content is boring, it will be boring.
In a game like Fallout 3, even at max level the content was still fun, and I enjoyed seeing the story to its end. However, for myself, once my character was as strong/geared/skilled as they could be, I wouldn't play that MMO for much longer. I would either roll an alt and start again or move on. I've no doubt though, that for some, they are eager to get to that maximum stage to play through the content with. But unless you've got a when-you-were-weaker comparison point, you wouldn't know the difference.
So I don't think it works well for MMOs to start a player at maxed power. It can work in a single player game though.
Dull is dull. Whether its a level 10 quest or an endgame raid, if the content is boring, it will be boring.
In a game like Fallout 3, even at max level the content was still fun, and I enjoyed seeing the story to its end. However, for myself, once my character was as strong/geared/skilled as they could be, I wouldn't play that MMO for much longer. I would either roll an alt and start again or move on. I've no doubt though, that for some, they are eager to get to that maximum stage to play through the content with. But unless you've got a when-you-were-weaker comparison point, you wouldn't know the difference.
So I don't think it works well for MMOs to start a player at maxed power. It can work in a single player game though.
They tend to work well for single player games because those game tend to not have the extended game play a mmo in general has.
But even Megaman and Zelda had power ups.
You must admit though, given enough time and games, you'll eventually get tired of the JRPG style leveling system. Yes D&D came ultimately before it, but JRPGs are the ones that simplified it with exp being solely used for leveling.
A simplistic version of typical thempark players view is this :
"A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies"
And thats where it all went wrong, now all think its a race to end so real price is waiting.
When i first enter a mmo from start i enjoy game and slowly progress absorb this new wonderous fantasy world(i mostly play fantasy mmo's).
Many these day people only complain about to much grind and want it all fast as posible if not they get bored thats what wrong with majority of mmo community they can't enjoy a mmo gameworld anymore.
Result bots/macro/exploit/hacks/addons/gold-itemsellers and itemshops:(
Developers try give players i nice and diverse looking world full of task to do and what most do run through it if its a race not notice world around them blindly go to end game.
So what we get is more and more meaningless gameplay focus on giving as much as they can fluff fast mindless gameplay so everybody is in no time at endgame.
That a mmo was first to give players a huge nice fantasy world to explore do stuff in pace that could take many months has slowly removed over years becouse in this day and age we want instant rewards instant uberness bah:(
Agreed. I enjoy the journey through a game; I love to explore new areas, try out new skills, immerse myself in the (hopefully) evolving storyline. In fact, in the last few mmo's I've played, I tend to play lots of different alts at low level getting a feel for the different classes and I've discovered that I seem to enjoy the beginning of games much more than the end.
The levelling works well for me, too, because I prefer to gradually learn new skills and decide how to build my character over time rather than being plunged in at the deep end. Guild Wars has a level cap of 20 (interestingly Arenanet have stated they will be raising it in GW2) and I found that I didn't have the same handle on my character at lv 20 as I did in, for example, WoW at lv 70 (never made it to 80 ^^).
I also kind of like the model that many mmo's use of offering different zones for different levels which keeps the game interesting and fresh for me (at least the first couple of times of playing through).
The sad part is... and I say this not at all in a facetious way...
People who think MMORPGs are "all about the end-game" and would do away with leveling to "get there faster", have absolutely *no* concept of what playing a true MMORPG was originally intended to be and used to be, back before WoW came along, bringing millions of people who had never heard of a MMO. Yet, so many of them suddenly became "experts" on the genre dictating what MMORPG is and isn't supposed to be. Well isn't that nice. [This is poetry.]
This, from many people, some of whom would argue that Blizzard invented the MMO.
I saw someone call EQ1 a "crappy WoW clone" - that's just one of myriad examples of how freaking clueless some of these people are or at least were to the genre they'd just unknowingly become part of. I've spoken to or otherwise read posts by people who had no idea that WoW was a MMORPG; they didn't even know what a MMORPG was. They were just eager to play the next Warcraft game.
Let's face it, most MMOs coming out these days don't qualify for the RPG label. I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot. [It's just unfortunate that the majority of WoW's population don't mind this, and/or never experienced the game until this happened] Many others to follow in its footsteps (or try to ride its coattails as it were) were pretty much the same.
But sure... let some developers give these people an all end-game "MMO" where all they're doing is raiding for leet gear, so they can burn through it all even faster and bitch even more about how there's "not enough content". [ I must have laughed for about 5 minutes straight after reading this.... it is what ultimately compelled me to quote you. Kudos to this observation on the mindset of themepark communities.]
MMORPGs are based off of MUDs... which were based off of table-top RPGs which were typically about long, on-going adventures and campaigns... They were not a race to level cap where the players would "raid" over and over again for fancy loot. Yes, indeed, they were about "the journey", not "the destination".
Though... I guess for people who think in such blatantly one-dimensional terms, "phat lewt" is all that would matter to them.
In closing, all I'll say is that anyone who argues that MMORPGs should have no levels and allow you to skip straight to the end-game forfeits any credibility to claim they're not only interested in getting the "phat lewt" as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and with as little effort as possible.
I have asked all of my friends that still play WoW the same questions, and I get the same answers. There isn't much of a variance in opinion there. I'm not talking 2-3 people... I have a large group of friends that played or still play. About 20 people off the top of my head that I've questioned. None of these people I questioned ever go to forums. Only 3 of them played pre-BC. Most came from console and high action games like SoCom, CounterStrike, Halo... these are the ones that are die hard for the new flavor of WoW. They have no delusions about the gear chase, the simplicity, the redundancy, and the sheer "rape" of all the qualities that at least made it an RPG so long ago. I question their concerns about these things, and for the most part they don't have any concerns about it to speak of. Instead, they all seem to look at me funny, like I'm a bad person for not being interested in raiding over and over to get gear to help me raid faster over and over to get gear to help me raid the new raid over and over to get new gear to raid the new raid faster over and over... to get more gear... to.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
i'm sorry. Anyways, I guess my point is that although I've posted here in the past and brought a lot of animosity and finger pointing on blizzard, and their beastly game, it's really the fault of the millions of players who show the devs they LIKE this new approach... However, I do appreciate the light they've caused to be shined on the MMORPG genre as a whole, and how much new money it's generated indirectly into the market.
It's now up to developers to give us SOMETHING NEW again - not just "something AGAIN.. but new!"
On Topic: I agree with some of the posters here that the entire idea of "end game" is just self defeating. It's dumb, and it's insulting to the fans that pay for you to develop quality entertainment. I don't think I would say that leveling shouldn't be skipped to get to 'end game', but rather, end game shouldn't exist in a real MMORPG.
The best way imo to solve the problem of how to keep players at the end interested is to not give them an end... I KNOW, the idea is rarely tossed around, and when it is, it's swiftly shot down in regards to "people will get bored and there's no motivation if there's no goal"... True, if you think only in the confines of today's and yesterday's game designs. But that is the problem, isn't it? No one is thinking fresh. No one is taking advantage of the data and statistical resources available from successful projects like WoW, EVE, AoC, EQ... the only info that seems to be given any consideration is marketting and player accessability. $Dollar signs$ are what they are looking at, not so much innovation. For example: Anyone else find it odd that millions of players are content with the raiding-gear chase in WoW, yet when it comes to developing new concepts for longevity, people are so quick to assume no one would put in time for a game that has no "end" ... even though millions of people have been doing that for the last 4 years of WoW expansions... endlessly chasing gear....let me say that again. ENDLESSLY chasing gear.
I hope devs use and exploit this trait in current mmo gamers and cater to it by offering depthful, adventurous, never ending content to keep the players engaged as long as they choose to be. Expansions would be exactly what they were meant to be. Paid for by the subs, and continuously updated so that there's always more to see and explore and excel in. Adding new raids and "VERTICALLY" progressive new ubergear is NOT an expansion. It's busy work and it's shallow and it's more like a "replacement" instead of expansion. Making everything from the last expansion obsolete is a very poor excuse for an expansion to begin with.
You don't need level caps. You don't need constant vertical progression. You don't need to get rid of progression either.... if you put the time effort and imagination in to it, something fresh, exciting, and REPLAYABLE can be created.
I have many detailed thoughts for just such a system if anyone wants to speak further PM me!
I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot.
I agree with some of that. Having played Vanilla WoW and now coming back to it a couple months ago I have noticed, In order to help new players "Catch up" They have made the first 70 lvl's easyer. I hit 60 in less than a month. I died in Gnomer (Of course, It isn't Gnomer unless you wipe at least once; stupid bomb guys)
But doing most instances at level in the dungeon finder was a pretty easy expirience. No strategy. Warrior charges does a battle shout to get some aggro and hope it holds while the Mage AOE's the crap out of everything. Some time it works, sometimes the mage dies. (In the old days AOE in instances was nearly certain death, the mobs were marked then people would use crowd control, Sheep, sap, trap. Then, as a group, you would kill the skull then the X and so on)
However:
I dissagree with some of that: I was playing in Icecrown and was given a quest to clear out an area. I went back for my reward, and then when I came back to the area I had cleared out, There was base of operations there. My actions changed the world around me. As someone who likes role playing games I was very happy about this.
I think Wow did a great thing for role playing by having the world change as you complete certain missions. I actually hope to see more of it in the future. I really was pleasantly suprised by this new aspect of wow. I also really enjoyed some of the quests where you get some of the history of the litch king.
Also There is a great quest where you help the King of Stormwind fight at the Undercity and at the end of the quest there is a face off with him Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore. Good storylines in Wrath I think. And that is what I want from a theme park game. Good history, Interesting quests that move the story forward and having a feel that you are changing with world around you.
So I agree with some of the cricism, Wow made leveling too easy. But I don't agree that it isn't a role playing game. Wow is doing some interesting things with it's quests and it's stories.
I dissagree with some of that: I was playing in Icecrown and was given a quest to clear out an area. I went back for my reward, and then when I came back to the area I had cleared out, There was base of operations there. My actions changed the world around me. As someone who likes role playing games I was very happy about this.
I think Wow did a great thing for role playing by having the world change as you complete certain missions. I actually hope to see more of it in the future. I really was pleasantly suprised by this new aspect of wow. I also really enjoyed some of the quests where you get some of the history of the litch king. There is also a great quest where you help the King of Stormwind fight at the Undercity and at the end of the quest there is a face off with him Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore. Good storylines in Wrath I think. And that is what I want from a theme park game. Good history, Interesting quests that move the story forward and having a feel that you are changing with world around you.
So I agree with some of the cricism, Wow made leveling too easy. But I don't agree that is isn't a role playing game. Wow is doing some interesting things with it's quests and it's stories.
A lot of their quests only change the world for one player. What is the point of that?
And while changing the world for everyone is a nice thing, take a look at instances. Nothing you do in an instance affects anyone else. How is that like an MMORPG?
Instances don't even make sense in any MMORPG.
Instances are just there to give everyone a single player game basically. But the point of MMORPGs is to share a world and content with other people.
WoW quests tend to suck too. Just variations of the same thing, and putting quests in just makes the gameplay linear because people are forced into doing shitty quests.. collect some shit, kill some shit, repeat. All of it is the same really. Go from quest hub to quest hub, is that the future of MMORPGs? It's like they think players are getting dumber instead of smarter. There's no challenge in leveling anymore because of the way they set up their quest system.
MMO's are not designed to entertain intelligent people. They're designed to placate the masses while getting them to spend as much money as possible. Leveling, rock-paper-scissors class mechanics, travel quests, etc... are all designed to make people feel like they're doing something when they're actually following a well made script.
Remember, gaming is a business and you're just another cash cow to milk.
MMO's are not designed to entertain intelligent people. They're designed to placate the masses while getting them to spend as much money as possible. Leveling, rock-paper-scissors class mechanics, travel quests, etc... are all designed to make people feel like they're doing something when they're actually following a well made script.
Remember, gaming is a business and you're just another cash cow to milk.
But someone as enlightened as you is wasting his time on an MMORPG forum... how ironic or, we could even say, how moronic.
MMO's are not designed to entertain intelligent people. They're designed to placate the masses while getting them to spend as much money as possible. Leveling, rock-paper-scissors class mechanics, travel quests, etc... are all designed to make people feel like they're doing something when they're actually following a well made script.
Remember, gaming is a business and you're just another cash cow to milk.
An Odd point of view for someone on an site that discusses MMO's. The nice thing is if you feel that way about MMO's you don't have to play them.
I play both WoW and EVE and what I want from an MMO is that they are well made. I don't actually care if it is a Sandbox, (where they provide the tools but you have to find your own fun, I find it funny when people say EVE is boring. It's a sand box, It has what you bring into it. If it is boring it isn't the game, it's you.) or if it is a Theme park; (They create a story and quest lines but the game is on rails) Just give me a well made game.
As for the original question of the OP. I feel the opposite way. I wish there was no level cap at all. Let people keep leveling. Make it harder as you go and add content with patches to keep up with the players leveling. So at level sixty it may take 4 or 5 days to get to level 61 but at level 80 it may take a week. At level 100 it may take a month to get to the next level.
I actually would like to see and end to level caps.
MMORPG's always will require a progression system of sorts, or the game won't be part of the genre. What some folks actually are asking for in these threads is an MMOAdventure game, which has almost all but died out in the single player PC game market.
wrong.
you seem to recognize that "Adventure" games are EXTREMELY niche (perhaps the SMALLEST genre) nowadays, and YET STILL draw the conclusion that that's the alternative genre others are looking for? lol congrats on that conclusion.
so according to you, there are a total of 2 possible genres that could be set in a virtual world. rpgs and adventures. 8/ makes sense.
As for the original question of the OP. I feel the opposite way. I wish there was no level cap at all. Let people keep leveling. Make it harder as you go and add content with patches to keep up with the players leveling. So at level sixty it may take 4 or 5 days to get to level 61 but at level 80 it may take a week. At level 100 it may take a month to get to the next level.
I actually would like to see and end to level caps.
A BIG part of the fun of leveling is gaining new skills/spells that open up gameplay and give me new things to do.
Would you be content to level in a game when all you can do is increase your stats? I wouldn't. Which is why WoW's gear grind end game never appealed to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Leveling is the entire point of RPGs. Progression of your character. You build up so that your character gains experience and abilities so that they can move on to harder and more rewarding content.
If you cut out the leveling and progression you might as well be playing Street Fighter, or Super Mario.
this is getting down to the meat of the issue. what you are saying is true. this IS the problem!
there IS no virtual world Street Fighter. yet.
there IS no virtual world Mario (maple story & all the clones don't count). yet.
there is no REAL virtual world FPS (PlanetSide and all the FPSRPG hybrid grindfests don't count). yet.
BUT, people who love RPG's have 300 or so mmoRPGs to choose from. they are well served. they even have all kinds of RPG hybrids that dabble in mixing other genres, and various levels of massively versus lobby/instance setups.
i personally HATE RPGs, and Ultima Underworld would have been my last RPG if my hunger for virtual worlds didn't force me into them. (and no you can't convince me not to read/post here just cuz the domain here has "RPG" in it).
*I*, and others like me are not being served........ AT ALL. (Valkyrie Sky and Darkfall come the closest, but they aren't close enough).
and i may be the only person ON THIS FORUM who wants these things. but there's tons more out there who won't ever COME here in the first place, and who have NEVER subbed an MMO, or only did so for a few months. some don't like RPGs. period. some don't like MMORPGs cuz they are not the right kind of RPGs or the right mix of RPG + __insert_other_genre__.
i'm an outlier for the unserved people. the rare one who has spent 11 years exploring virtual worlds DESPITE the fact that i hate the gameplay and virtually all the fundamental mechanics virtually all MMOs are built on currently.
after 11 years you are starting to find alot of people that come from the RPG loving traditional MMORPG camp who are making steps TOWARDS my direction. they are far from my standpoint, but a significant portion have started moving my way. healthy people can only stand endless repetition for only x many years before it starts to feel really hollow, and they
.......start looking for games that are FUN in the moment to moment gameplay. not all about being bribed into mindless activities to be doled out "rewards" at a calculatedly & increasingly diminishing pace.
or to put it into buzzwords some people might comprehend better, they
......start to look for intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards to their precious gaming time.
characters ALWAYS get left behind, and effectively thrown in the garbage. its just a matter of time. real life experiences (not points) and real life skill improvements stay with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. and are go with you from game to game.
no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it.
What I can't figure out from your posts is exactly what it is you are looking for? You listed 3 examples above of genres (FPS, Combat Games, and whatever the hell Mario is) saying there are no virutal worlds ( a problem I think MMORPG's actually have these days, but I digress) and I'm thinking to myself, why would anyone want them to be.
Outside of FPS, I don't think the general gaming population even wants games like this, and I think you really are an abberation in the market place. You claim to represent teaming masses of underserved players, and I say you pretty much represent yourself.
The few games that have been somewhat along these lines "don't count" in your words? Why don't they count? Because they are a bad idea that no one really wants.
re-read my post.
start with the top, finish with the bottom. pay extra attention to the top and the bottom in particular, but actually read the rest too, as you are asking some needless questions that would basically be having me re-iterate what i said in different words so that maybe you'd have an easier time digesting it.
i hate RPGs. its probably the only genre i hate. could it be that i'm looking for something that's NOT an RPG? hmmm! does this mean i must of course be looking for the only other genre that exists (if you are to be listened to)? the adventure game? 8)
notice the part where i said i will not stop reading/posting, regardless how many places "RPG" shows up on this site, including the domain part.
ok, so in THIS post you acknowledge that at least a 3rd gameplay genre exists. the FPS. now, tell me which one is not castrated with a bunch of RPG elements and grind? that's right. there is none. could this by why they "don't count"? hmmmmm!
thats plenty good enough reason, but furthermore, in Planetsides case, there are NO NPCs, NO mobs, NO towns/villages, NO real points of interest, NO reason to explore the world, nothing but randomish terrain and bases. TOTALLY UNIMMERSIVE. can you REALLY call that a virtual world? maybe YOU can, with all the other....... thoughts you're coming up with.
why would anyone want any other genre to be represented in a virtual world? ARE YOU REALLY ASKING THAT?!?!
Maply Story (and clones)...... nobody wants these? thats why its one of the most financially successful online games? thats seems to be what you seem to think "counts". you should read up more on this MMO topic that you act like you are an authority on. they don't count to ME because they are.......surprise! RPGs! including lotsa grinding and all the other crappy RPG trappings. can you really compare the gameplay of MS to Super Mario and say they give the same kind of gameplay experience?
let me quote myself down here, since i think you might have trouble piecing things together if they aren't closer on the screen...... " no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it. "
and yet you proceeded to "inform" me that i'm an "abberation". nice detective work there. do i detect some attitude there? gotta remind me that you are with your like-minded posse and won't have folk like me in your neck of the woods, especially since i got no backup with me? hah
i didn't think this needed FURTHER explanation, but you proved me wrong i guess. 8) here is how i represent alot of people. there are alot of people who don't like and don't play RPGs. yes, believe it or not there is life outside of these games and outside of this forum. i play almost all genres EXCEPT RPGs, so i represent game players of all other genres.
IN FACT, in the GREATER SCHEME of the entire gaming spectrum as a whole, RPGs are niche. all the numerous other genres positively DWARF the RPG scene. and yet MMOs have only catered to RPGs so far. look at all the MMOs on the horizon (and some that have been released recently) and you'd have to be a ....... little slow, to not see a big change happening. a shift away from RPGs. are you gonna tell me this isn't happening?
If you don't like the adventure of leveling up then you're playing the wrong genre. I enjoy gaining levels and making my character better and the journey of it. If you start off max or its easy to get to max to me it just feels like you're playing in God mode. One of the core features of a RPG is progression so it makes no sense to skip the leveling IMO.
Leveling is the entire point of RPGs. Progression of your character. You build up so that your character gains experience and abilities so that they can move on to harder and more rewarding content.
If you cut out the leveling and progression you might as well be playing Street Fighter, or Super Mario.
this is getting down to the meat of the issue. what you are saying is true. this IS the problem!
there IS no virtual world Street Fighter. yet.
there IS no virtual world Mario (maple story & all the clones don't count). yet.
there is no REAL virtual world FPS (PlanetSide and all the FPSRPG hybrid grindfests don't count). yet.
BUT, people who love RPG's have 300 or so mmoRPGs to choose from. they are well served. they even have all kinds of RPG hybrids that dabble in mixing other genres, and various levels of massively versus lobby/instance setups.
i personally HATE RPGs, and Ultima Underworld would have been my last RPG if my hunger for virtual worlds didn't force me into them. (and no you can't convince me not to read/post here just cuz the domain here has "RPG" in it).
*I*, and others like me are not being served........ AT ALL. (Valkyrie Sky and Darkfall come the closest, but they aren't close enough).
and i may be the only person ON THIS FORUM who wants these things. but there's tons more out there who won't ever COME here in the first place, and who have NEVER subbed an MMO, or only did so for a few months. some don't like RPGs. period. some don't like MMORPGs cuz they are not the right kind of RPGs or the right mix of RPG + __insert_other_genre__.
i'm an outlier for the unserved people. the rare one who has spent 11 years exploring virtual worlds DESPITE the fact that i hate the gameplay and virtually all the fundamental mechanics virtually all MMOs are built on currently.
after 11 years you are starting to find alot of people that come from the RPG loving traditional MMORPG camp who are making steps TOWARDS my direction. they are far from my standpoint, but a significant portion have started moving my way. healthy people can only stand endless repetition for only x many years before it starts to feel really hollow, and they
.......start looking for games that are FUN in the moment to moment gameplay. not all about being bribed into mindless activities to be doled out "rewards" at a calculatedly & increasingly diminishing pace.
or to put it into buzzwords some people might comprehend better, they
......start to look for intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards to their precious gaming time.
characters ALWAYS get left behind, and effectively thrown in the garbage. its just a matter of time. real life experiences (not points) and real life skill improvements stay with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. and are go with you from game to game.
no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it.
Games are built for the mass market, and even traditional MMORPG's that I like are disappearing because the masses have a play style that vary's quite a bit from my prefernces. But at least I'm part of a decently large demographic so there are a few games that still cater to me, even if they are made by Indy Devs.
......snip
That's not to say you can do everything when you start out, it takes time and patience to get to certain activities. After almost 3 years I still can't fly a Capital ship (I could have, but chose other paths) and it probably will be a focus in the 4th year.
.....snip
But back to you. I understand you want something that you and "countless others" would enjoy, but I put forth that if such a market existed, someone would have built it and made a fortune by now. (in fact, face book games seem to be taking advantage of this nichen so perhaps they already are)
congrats on managing to be elite enough to be part of your "decently large demographic".
here's a foreign concept that a die hard RPG'er will likely struggle with understanding: a much MUCH larger demographic WILL NOT live an alternate life role playing for 4 years before getting some desired gameplay. they will instead buy a game that.....shockingly.... lets them do what they want, because they are a GAMER, not somebody trying to live some second life and "simulate" some lifetime "achievements".
and your last statement there is so deliciously short sighted. everyone thought EQ was doing shockingly well at 500k subbers. nobody thought that ANOTHER western MMO would then come in and CREATE an additional 11 million subber market out of thin air. and that was released into a market that already had alot of MMORPG choices! its huge success is one of the reasons people haven't tried to do anything new for awhile. heck, EQ's success is what prompted Blizzard to copy and tweak the MMORPG template. after WoW all the other MMO contenders got this crazy idea that it was a new magic formula/pattern they could closely adhere to so they could print their OWN money. heck, Mythic, one of the formerly major MMO players then put aside their Sci-Fi MMO Imperator to make a WoW clone. surely you've read SOME of all the tons of articles out there about how huge MMO productions are, and how risk averse they are with these huge investments of time and money. people are only now getting around to see how all the WoW patterned games, after coming out weren't really doing much if any better than the pre-WoW MMORPGs, and that its not a magically expanding genre. thats why almost everything on the horizon finally looks to be trying significantly different approaches (in theory).
few people thought facebook itself would get so huge, or like how you even mentioned (but failed to see the irony) the facebook GAMES could be such a big market. those markets didn't exist before. nobody had "made a fortune".
the markets for non-RPG MMOs are there, they are just waiting for somebody to build it before they come. in MOST cases it will have to be a QUALITY product. so probably not the first few. altho the facebook games and some other examples show that SOMETIMES simply a new combination of the right ingredients being put together for the first time, can make money even with shoddy implementation.
get back to me in 6-7 years, and THEN try to tell me there weren't any other markets out there. hell, its POSSIBLE it could be alot sooner than that. depending on how well APB is implemented.
Leveling is the entire point of RPGs. Progression of your character. You build up so that your character gains experience and abilities so that they can move on to harder and more rewarding content.
If you cut out the leveling and progression you might as well be playing Street Fighter, or Super Mario.
this is getting down to the meat of the issue. what you are saying is true. this IS the problem!
there IS no virtual world Street Fighter. yet.
there IS no virtual world Mario (maple story & all the clones don't count). yet.
there is no REAL virtual world FPS (PlanetSide and all the FPSRPG hybrid grindfests don't count). yet.
BUT, people who love RPG's have 300 or so mmoRPGs to choose from. they are well served. they even have all kinds of RPG hybrids that dabble in mixing other genres, and various levels of massively versus lobby/instance setups.
i personally HATE RPGs, and Ultima Underworld would have been my last RPG if my hunger for virtual worlds didn't force me into them. (and no you can't convince me not to read/post here just cuz the domain here has "RPG" in it).
*I*, and others like me are not being served........ AT ALL. (Valkyrie Sky and Darkfall come the closest, but they aren't close enough).
and i may be the only person ON THIS FORUM who wants these things. but there's tons more out there who won't ever COME here in the first place, and who have NEVER subbed an MMO, or only did so for a few months. some don't like RPGs. period. some don't like MMORPGs cuz they are not the right kind of RPGs or the right mix of RPG + __insert_other_genre__.
i'm an outlier for the unserved people. the rare one who has spent 11 years exploring virtual worlds DESPITE the fact that i hate the gameplay and virtually all the fundamental mechanics virtually all MMOs are built on currently.
after 11 years you are starting to find alot of people that come from the RPG loving traditional MMORPG camp who are making steps TOWARDS my direction. they are far from my standpoint, but a significant portion have started moving my way. healthy people can only stand endless repetition for only x many years before it starts to feel really hollow, and they
.......start looking for games that are FUN in the moment to moment gameplay. not all about being bribed into mindless activities to be doled out "rewards" at a calculatedly & increasingly diminishing pace.
or to put it into buzzwords some people might comprehend better, they
......start to look for intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards to their precious gaming time.
characters ALWAYS get left behind, and effectively thrown in the garbage. its just a matter of time. real life experiences (not points) and real life skill improvements stay with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. and are go with you from game to game.
no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it.
Games are built for the mass market, and even traditional MMORPG's that I like are disappearing because the masses have a play style that vary's quite a bit from my prefernces. But at least I'm part of a decently large demographic so there are a few games that still cater to me, even if they are made by Indy Devs.
......snip
That's not to say you can do everything when you start out, it takes time and patience to get to certain activities. After almost 3 years I still can't fly a Capital ship (I could have, but chose other paths) and it probably will be a focus in the 4th year.
.....snip
But back to you. I understand you want something that you and "countless others" would enjoy, but I put forth that if such a market existed, someone would have built it and made a fortune by now. (in fact, face book games seem to be taking advantage of this nichen so perhaps they already are)
congrats on managing to be elite enough to be part of your "decently large demographic".
here's a foreign concept that a die hard RPG'er will likely struggle with understanding: a much MUCH larger demographic WILL NOT live an alternate life role playing for 4 years before getting some desired gameplay. they will instead buy a game that.....shockingly.... lets them do what they want, because they are a GAMER, not somebody trying to live some second life and "simulate" some lifetime "achievements".
and your last statement there is so deliciously short sighted. everyone thought EQ was doing shockingly well at 500k subbers. nobody thought that ANOTHER western MMO would then come in and CREATE an additional 11 million subber market out of thin air. and that was released into a market that already had alot of MMORPG choices! its huge success is one of the reasons people haven't tried to do anything new for awhile. they had this crazy idea that it was a new magic formula/pattern they could closely adhere to so they could print their OWN money. heck, Mythic, one of the formerly major MMO players then put aside their Sci-Fi MMO Imperator to make a WoW clone. surely you've read the articles about how huge MMO productions are and how risk averse they are, etc.
few people thought facebook itself would get so huge, or like how you even mentioned (but failed to see the irony) the facebook GAMES could be such a big market. those markets didn't exist before. nobody had "made a fortune".
the markets are there, they are just waiting for somebody to build it before they come. in MOST cases it will have to be a QUALITY product. so probably not the first few. altho the facebook games and some other examples show that SOMETIMES simply a new combination of the right ingredients being put together for the first time, can make money even with shoddy implementation.
Ah, but what you fail to realize from all of this is I don't care about games being made for other demographics. I'm totally ignoring FPS'er, Facebook games, Sports games, etc etc.
I do however care about MMORPG's and in particular ones that cater towards my favored play style. (though I appear to be rapidly heading towards obsolecence.
You might be right, I'm sure there are are untapped gaming markets, but unless you decide to go out and get the job done you'll have to live with what the providers throw at us.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you don't like the adventure of leveling up then you're playing the wrong genre. I enjoy gaining levels and making my character better and the journey of it. If you start off max or its easy to get to max to me it just feels like you're playing in God mode. One of the core features of a RPG is progression so it makes no sense to skip the leveling IMO.
But the point is adventure can be had without leveling. Progression can occur at max level or no level, through uber questing and raids for equipment and upgrades of armors and stats. Why build a wall to a game, and said, "Stop, you have to pay time and mommy for X months before you get to have any fun."
If you don't like the adventure of leveling up then you're playing the wrong genre. I enjoy gaining levels and making my character better and the journey of it. If you start off max or its easy to get to max to me it just feels like you're playing in God mode. One of the core features of a RPG is progression so it makes no sense to skip the leveling IMO.
But the point is adventure can be had without leveling. Progression can occur at max level or no level, through uber questing and raids for equipment and upgrades of armors and stats. Why build a wall to a game, and said, "Stop, you have to pay time and mommy for X months before you get to have any fun."
I agree. To others..entertain this idea for a moment.
Object based MMO. By that I mean instead of skiling up, you gain stuff that you put in your house and or houses. Yes, we all want goals in a game, without question. But we are so used to skill progression we assume that no skill progression means no goals.
I could totally see a game that has a set number of skill points you can assign yourself and rearrage at will but not gains from experience. Instead however you can get objects trophies etc.
I challenge those that say nobody would be intrested in getting trophies for goals achieved becuase people do that in real life all the time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I could totally see a game that has a set number of skill points you can assign yourself and rearrage at will but not gains from experience. Instead however you can get objects trophies etc.
I challenge those that say nobody would be intrested in getting trophies for goals achieved becuase people do that in real life all the time.
Good point, but in RL, I can't earn the ability to fly or cast fireballs. We make do with what rewards we can get. I'd rather be able to turn invisible than have any trophy in the world. Well, except Jessica Alba.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I could totally see a game that has a set number of skill points you can assign yourself and rearrage at will but not gains from experience. Instead however you can get objects trophies etc.
I challenge those that say nobody would be intrested in getting trophies for goals achieved becuase people do that in real life all the time.
Good point, but in RL, I can't earn the ability to fly or cast fireballs. We make do with what rewards we can get. I'd rather be able to turn invisible than have any trophy in the world. Well, except Jessica Alba.
What if you could turn invisible already in both cases?
He is saying in a skill based game where there is no "leveling up" so there is no gap between players playing together, why not have the "end game" be collecting trophies rather than gear.
Which has nothing to do with what abilities you'd have access to.
What if you could turn invisible already in both cases?
He is saying in a skill based game where there is no "leveling up" so there is no gap between players playing together, why not have the "end game" be collecting trophies rather than gear.
Which has nothing to do with what abilities you'd have access to.
I for one would play a game like this
exactly. And each night if you wanted to move your set skill points around to be a wizard, healer, fighter or hybrid depending on what you want to do that night then you can.
Vets would simply have a ton of different houses, money and cool stuff in them.
You could craft anything and anytime but getting the materials would be some work. now on crafting it would be a discussion if you could make items that would in effect make your character better. Seeing that I like crafting I say yes to that but other might disagree.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
What if you could turn invisible already in both cases?
He is saying in a skill based game where there is no "leveling up" so there is no gap between players playing together, why not have the "end game" be collecting trophies rather than gear.
Which has nothing to do with what abilities you'd have access to.
I for one would play a game like this
exactly. And each night if you wanted to move your set skill points around to be a wizard, healer, fighter or hybrid depending on what you want to do that night then you can.
Vets would simply have a ton of different houses, money and cool stuff in them.
You could craft anything and anytime but getting the materials would be some work. now on crafting it would be a discussion if you could make items that would in effect make your character better. Seeing that I like crafting I say yes to that but other might disagree.
No leveling + housing and furniture = The Sims.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1. although not really valid for this conversation its worth pointing out that the sims was the best selling video game of all time. I think it still is.
2. how many MMO's have you played where people scream for housing? Even Darkfall players want houses.
To help it along take out housing from the concept for a second. What about 100% object based MMO. By that I mean what makes you stronger for new areas is being able to get the stuff or the materials to make the stuff.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
See the solution to this is give both alternatives, Guild wars works this out wonderfully. They will ether let you select a maximum level maximum gear character to jump right into the great PvP the game has. Or you can go and finish a story campaign and take that character to PvP later. Its really you're choice.
Another thing guild wars does excellent is they don't make their game a pure grind. The story is interesting, has cinematics to keep you interested overall just really good story telling.
Quests are rarely kill X number of Y mobs and usually involve you getting to a story mission or trigger a story objective. Even side quests have to do a lot with storyline.
I actually don't play mmorpg games anymore but try to focus more on what I see are the superior but under represented mini games in the Genre.
Games like Hellgate London, Guild wars, Phantasy star, and a few other's that will be out soon including Monster Hunter. Enjoyable, Low grind in comparison to mmorpg games, good communities, and good story.
Sure the games may not last as long (Because grinding does extend game play longitude) but for the 3 years or so these games do stay alive, they are much more enjoyable than any mmorpg game I have played thus far. I could name a list of over 30 mmo's I have tried and only 2 I have some what enjoyed.
While a valid opinion from and achiever type player, I have to disagree as an explorer type player. I find that after 9 years of MMOs I am really tired of the off balanced grind. I mean off balanced as you have to do repeatable quests a hundred or two hundred times to get a level just a little after mid game, or grind thousands of mobs. *cough*Aion, Liniage 2, etc*cough*
As an explorer type, there is just no gear in the world I'm willing to kill 250+ of the same mobs for. No I do not like grinding a dungeon a hundred times to get a weapon that has a 1% drop rate at lvl 35 of a 50 level game. hell I'm not willing to do it at cap level for that matter.
I don't particularly mind the concept of leveling itself, what I do mind is poor execution.
Dull is dull. Whether its a level 10 quest or an endgame raid, if the content is boring, it will be boring.
In a game like Fallout 3, even at max level the content was still fun, and I enjoyed seeing the story to its end. However, for myself, once my character was as strong/geared/skilled as they could be, I wouldn't play that MMO for much longer. I would either roll an alt and start again or move on. I've no doubt though, that for some, they are eager to get to that maximum stage to play through the content with. But unless you've got a when-you-were-weaker comparison point, you wouldn't know the difference.
So I don't think it works well for MMOs to start a player at maxed power. It can work in a single player game though.
They tend to work well for single player games because those game tend to not have the extended game play a mmo in general has.
But even Megaman and Zelda had power ups.
You must admit though, given enough time and games, you'll eventually get tired of the JRPG style leveling system. Yes D&D came ultimately before it, but JRPGs are the ones that simplified it with exp being solely used for leveling.
Agreed. I enjoy the journey through a game; I love to explore new areas, try out new skills, immerse myself in the (hopefully) evolving storyline. In fact, in the last few mmo's I've played, I tend to play lots of different alts at low level getting a feel for the different classes and I've discovered that I seem to enjoy the beginning of games much more than the end.
The levelling works well for me, too, because I prefer to gradually learn new skills and decide how to build my character over time rather than being plunged in at the deep end. Guild Wars has a level cap of 20 (interestingly Arenanet have stated they will be raising it in GW2) and I found that I didn't have the same handle on my character at lv 20 as I did in, for example, WoW at lv 70 (never made it to 80 ^^).
I also kind of like the model that many mmo's use of offering different zones for different levels which keeps the game interesting and fresh for me (at least the first couple of times of playing through).
I have asked all of my friends that still play WoW the same questions, and I get the same answers. There isn't much of a variance in opinion there. I'm not talking 2-3 people... I have a large group of friends that played or still play. About 20 people off the top of my head that I've questioned. None of these people I questioned ever go to forums. Only 3 of them played pre-BC. Most came from console and high action games like SoCom, CounterStrike, Halo... these are the ones that are die hard for the new flavor of WoW. They have no delusions about the gear chase, the simplicity, the redundancy, and the sheer "rape" of all the qualities that at least made it an RPG so long ago. I question their concerns about these things, and for the most part they don't have any concerns about it to speak of. Instead, they all seem to look at me funny, like I'm a bad person for not being interested in raiding over and over to get gear to help me raid faster over and over to get gear to help me raid the new raid over and over to get new gear to raid the new raid faster over and over... to get more gear... to.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
i'm sorry. Anyways, I guess my point is that although I've posted here in the past and brought a lot of animosity and finger pointing on blizzard, and their beastly game, it's really the fault of the millions of players who show the devs they LIKE this new approach... However, I do appreciate the light they've caused to be shined on the MMORPG genre as a whole, and how much new money it's generated indirectly into the market.
It's now up to developers to give us SOMETHING NEW again - not just "something AGAIN.. but new!"
On Topic: I agree with some of the posters here that the entire idea of "end game" is just self defeating. It's dumb, and it's insulting to the fans that pay for you to develop quality entertainment. I don't think I would say that leveling shouldn't be skipped to get to 'end game', but rather, end game shouldn't exist in a real MMORPG.
The best way imo to solve the problem of how to keep players at the end interested is to not give them an end... I KNOW, the idea is rarely tossed around, and when it is, it's swiftly shot down in regards to "people will get bored and there's no motivation if there's no goal"... True, if you think only in the confines of today's and yesterday's game designs. But that is the problem, isn't it? No one is thinking fresh. No one is taking advantage of the data and statistical resources available from successful projects like WoW, EVE, AoC, EQ... the only info that seems to be given any consideration is marketting and player accessability. $Dollar signs$ are what they are looking at, not so much innovation. For example: Anyone else find it odd that millions of players are content with the raiding-gear chase in WoW, yet when it comes to developing new concepts for longevity, people are so quick to assume no one would put in time for a game that has no "end" ... even though millions of people have been doing that for the last 4 years of WoW expansions... endlessly chasing gear....let me say that again. ENDLESSLY chasing gear.
I hope devs use and exploit this trait in current mmo gamers and cater to it by offering depthful, adventurous, never ending content to keep the players engaged as long as they choose to be. Expansions would be exactly what they were meant to be. Paid for by the subs, and continuously updated so that there's always more to see and explore and excel in. Adding new raids and "VERTICALLY" progressive new ubergear is NOT an expansion. It's busy work and it's shallow and it's more like a "replacement" instead of expansion. Making everything from the last expansion obsolete is a very poor excuse for an expansion to begin with.
You don't need level caps. You don't need constant vertical progression. You don't need to get rid of progression either.... if you put the time effort and imagination in to it, something fresh, exciting, and REPLAYABLE can be created.
I have many detailed thoughts for just such a system if anyone wants to speak further PM me!
I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot.
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I agree with some of that. Having played Vanilla WoW and now coming back to it a couple months ago I have noticed, In order to help new players "Catch up" They have made the first 70 lvl's easyer. I hit 60 in less than a month. I died in Gnomer (Of course, It isn't Gnomer unless you wipe at least once; stupid bomb guys)
But doing most instances at level in the dungeon finder was a pretty easy expirience. No strategy. Warrior charges does a battle shout to get some aggro and hope it holds while the Mage AOE's the crap out of everything. Some time it works, sometimes the mage dies. (In the old days AOE in instances was nearly certain death, the mobs were marked then people would use crowd control, Sheep, sap, trap. Then, as a group, you would kill the skull then the X and so on)
However:
I dissagree with some of that: I was playing in Icecrown and was given a quest to clear out an area. I went back for my reward, and then when I came back to the area I had cleared out, There was base of operations there. My actions changed the world around me. As someone who likes role playing games I was very happy about this.
I think Wow did a great thing for role playing by having the world change as you complete certain missions. I actually hope to see more of it in the future. I really was pleasantly suprised by this new aspect of wow. I also really enjoyed some of the quests where you get some of the history of the litch king.
Also There is a great quest where you help the King of Stormwind fight at the Undercity and at the end of the quest there is a face off with him Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore. Good storylines in Wrath I think. And that is what I want from a theme park game. Good history, Interesting quests that move the story forward and having a feel that you are changing with world around you.
So I agree with some of the cricism, Wow made leveling too easy. But I don't agree that it isn't a role playing game. Wow is doing some interesting things with it's quests and it's stories.
A lot of their quests only change the world for one player. What is the point of that?
And while changing the world for everyone is a nice thing, take a look at instances. Nothing you do in an instance affects anyone else. How is that like an MMORPG?
Instances don't even make sense in any MMORPG.
Instances are just there to give everyone a single player game basically. But the point of MMORPGs is to share a world and content with other people.
WoW quests tend to suck too. Just variations of the same thing, and putting quests in just makes the gameplay linear because people are forced into doing shitty quests.. collect some shit, kill some shit, repeat. All of it is the same really. Go from quest hub to quest hub, is that the future of MMORPGs? It's like they think players are getting dumber instead of smarter. There's no challenge in leveling anymore because of the way they set up their quest system.
MMO's are not designed to entertain intelligent people. They're designed to placate the masses while getting them to spend as much money as possible. Leveling, rock-paper-scissors class mechanics, travel quests, etc... are all designed to make people feel like they're doing something when they're actually following a well made script.
Remember, gaming is a business and you're just another cash cow to milk.
But someone as enlightened as you is wasting his time on an MMORPG forum... how ironic or, we could even say, how moronic.
An Odd point of view for someone on an site that discusses MMO's. The nice thing is if you feel that way about MMO's you don't have to play them.
I play both WoW and EVE and what I want from an MMO is that they are well made. I don't actually care if it is a Sandbox, (where they provide the tools but you have to find your own fun, I find it funny when people say EVE is boring. It's a sand box, It has what you bring into it. If it is boring it isn't the game, it's you.) or if it is a Theme park; (They create a story and quest lines but the game is on rails) Just give me a well made game.
As for the original question of the OP. I feel the opposite way. I wish there was no level cap at all. Let people keep leveling. Make it harder as you go and add content with patches to keep up with the players leveling. So at level sixty it may take 4 or 5 days to get to level 61 but at level 80 it may take a week. At level 100 it may take a month to get to the next level.
I actually would like to see and end to level caps.
wrong.
you seem to recognize that "Adventure" games are EXTREMELY niche (perhaps the SMALLEST genre) nowadays, and YET STILL draw the conclusion that that's the alternative genre others are looking for? lol congrats on that conclusion.
so according to you, there are a total of 2 possible genres that could be set in a virtual world. rpgs and adventures. 8/ makes sense.
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A BIG part of the fun of leveling is gaining new skills/spells that open up gameplay and give me new things to do.
Would you be content to level in a game when all you can do is increase your stats? I wouldn't. Which is why WoW's gear grind end game never appealed to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
re-read my post.
start with the top, finish with the bottom. pay extra attention to the top and the bottom in particular, but actually read the rest too, as you are asking some needless questions that would basically be having me re-iterate what i said in different words so that maybe you'd have an easier time digesting it.
i hate RPGs. its probably the only genre i hate. could it be that i'm looking for something that's NOT an RPG? hmmm! does this mean i must of course be looking for the only other genre that exists (if you are to be listened to)? the adventure game? 8)
notice the part where i said i will not stop reading/posting, regardless how many places "RPG" shows up on this site, including the domain part.
ok, so in THIS post you acknowledge that at least a 3rd gameplay genre exists. the FPS. now, tell me which one is not castrated with a bunch of RPG elements and grind? that's right. there is none. could this by why they "don't count"? hmmmmm!
thats plenty good enough reason, but furthermore, in Planetsides case, there are NO NPCs, NO mobs, NO towns/villages, NO real points of interest, NO reason to explore the world, nothing but randomish terrain and bases. TOTALLY UNIMMERSIVE. can you REALLY call that a virtual world? maybe YOU can, with all the other....... thoughts you're coming up with.
why would anyone want any other genre to be represented in a virtual world? ARE YOU REALLY ASKING THAT?!?!
Maply Story (and clones)...... nobody wants these? thats why its one of the most financially successful online games? thats seems to be what you seem to think "counts". you should read up more on this MMO topic that you act like you are an authority on. they don't count to ME because they are.......surprise! RPGs! including lotsa grinding and all the other crappy RPG trappings. can you really compare the gameplay of MS to Super Mario and say they give the same kind of gameplay experience?
let me quote myself down here, since i think you might have trouble piecing things together if they aren't closer on the screen...... " no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it. "
and yet you proceeded to "inform" me that i'm an "abberation". nice detective work there. do i detect some attitude there? gotta remind me that you are with your like-minded posse and won't have folk like me in your neck of the woods, especially since i got no backup with me? hah
i didn't think this needed FURTHER explanation, but you proved me wrong i guess. 8) here is how i represent alot of people. there are alot of people who don't like and don't play RPGs. yes, believe it or not there is life outside of these games and outside of this forum. i play almost all genres EXCEPT RPGs, so i represent game players of all other genres.
IN FACT, in the GREATER SCHEME of the entire gaming spectrum as a whole, RPGs are niche. all the numerous other genres positively DWARF the RPG scene. and yet MMOs have only catered to RPGs so far. look at all the MMOs on the horizon (and some that have been released recently) and you'd have to be a ....... little slow, to not see a big change happening. a shift away from RPGs. are you gonna tell me this isn't happening?
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If you don't like the adventure of leveling up then you're playing the wrong genre. I enjoy gaining levels and making my character better and the journey of it. If you start off max or its easy to get to max to me it just feels like you're playing in God mode. One of the core features of a RPG is progression so it makes no sense to skip the leveling IMO.
congrats on managing to be elite enough to be part of your "decently large demographic".
here's a foreign concept that a die hard RPG'er will likely struggle with understanding: a much MUCH larger demographic WILL NOT live an alternate life role playing for 4 years before getting some desired gameplay. they will instead buy a game that.....shockingly.... lets them do what they want, because they are a GAMER, not somebody trying to live some second life and "simulate" some lifetime "achievements".
and your last statement there is so deliciously short sighted. everyone thought EQ was doing shockingly well at 500k subbers. nobody thought that ANOTHER western MMO would then come in and CREATE an additional 11 million subber market out of thin air. and that was released into a market that already had alot of MMORPG choices! its huge success is one of the reasons people haven't tried to do anything new for awhile. heck, EQ's success is what prompted Blizzard to copy and tweak the MMORPG template. after WoW all the other MMO contenders got this crazy idea that it was a new magic formula/pattern they could closely adhere to so they could print their OWN money. heck, Mythic, one of the formerly major MMO players then put aside their Sci-Fi MMO Imperator to make a WoW clone. surely you've read SOME of all the tons of articles out there about how huge MMO productions are, and how risk averse they are with these huge investments of time and money. people are only now getting around to see how all the WoW patterned games, after coming out weren't really doing much if any better than the pre-WoW MMORPGs, and that its not a magically expanding genre. thats why almost everything on the horizon finally looks to be trying significantly different approaches (in theory).
few people thought facebook itself would get so huge, or like how you even mentioned (but failed to see the irony) the facebook GAMES could be such a big market. those markets didn't exist before. nobody had "made a fortune".
the markets for non-RPG MMOs are there, they are just waiting for somebody to build it before they come. in MOST cases it will have to be a QUALITY product. so probably not the first few. altho the facebook games and some other examples show that SOMETIMES simply a new combination of the right ingredients being put together for the first time, can make money even with shoddy implementation.
get back to me in 6-7 years, and THEN try to tell me there weren't any other markets out there. hell, its POSSIBLE it could be alot sooner than that. depending on how well APB is implemented.
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Corpus Callosum
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Ah, but what you fail to realize from all of this is I don't care about games being made for other demographics. I'm totally ignoring FPS'er, Facebook games, Sports games, etc etc.
I do however care about MMORPG's and in particular ones that cater towards my favored play style. (though I appear to be rapidly heading towards obsolecence.
You might be right, I'm sure there are are untapped gaming markets, but unless you decide to go out and get the job done you'll have to live with what the providers throw at us.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But the point is adventure can be had without leveling. Progression can occur at max level or no level, through uber questing and raids for equipment and upgrades of armors and stats. Why build a wall to a game, and said, "Stop, you have to pay time and mommy for X months before you get to have any fun."
I agree. To others..entertain this idea for a moment.
Object based MMO. By that I mean instead of skiling up, you gain stuff that you put in your house and or houses. Yes, we all want goals in a game, without question. But we are so used to skill progression we assume that no skill progression means no goals.
I could totally see a game that has a set number of skill points you can assign yourself and rearrage at will but not gains from experience. Instead however you can get objects trophies etc.
I challenge those that say nobody would be intrested in getting trophies for goals achieved becuase people do that in real life all the time.
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Good point, but in RL, I can't earn the ability to fly or cast fireballs. We make do with what rewards we can get. I'd rather be able to turn invisible than have any trophy in the world. Well, except Jessica Alba.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What if you could turn invisible already in both cases?
He is saying in a skill based game where there is no "leveling up" so there is no gap between players playing together, why not have the "end game" be collecting trophies rather than gear.
Which has nothing to do with what abilities you'd have access to.
I for one would play a game like this
exactly. And each night if you wanted to move your set skill points around to be a wizard, healer, fighter or hybrid depending on what you want to do that night then you can.
Vets would simply have a ton of different houses, money and cool stuff in them.
You could craft anything and anytime but getting the materials would be some work. now on crafting it would be a discussion if you could make items that would in effect make your character better. Seeing that I like crafting I say yes to that but other might disagree.
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No leveling + housing and furniture = The Sims.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Skill based > leveling
1. although not really valid for this conversation its worth pointing out that the sims was the best selling video game of all time. I think it still is.
2. how many MMO's have you played where people scream for housing? Even Darkfall players want houses.
To help it along take out housing from the concept for a second. What about 100% object based MMO. By that I mean what makes you stronger for new areas is being able to get the stuff or the materials to make the stuff.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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