1. although not really valid for this conversation its worth pointing out that the sims was the best selling video game of all time. I think it still is.
Not an MMORPG, though.
2. how many MMO's have you played where people scream for housing? Even Darkfall players want houses.
Yup, but they don't want no advancement.
To help it along take out housing from the concept for a second. What about 100% object based MMO. By that I mean what makes you stronger for new areas is being able to get the stuff or the materials to make the stuff.
Just a diferent form of leveling. I think it would be cool to play something like that, but it's still leveling. Just like WoW's end game of gear grinding is a form of leveling.
You seem to want all players to be able to play together - which is a great ideal, but gear differences will still divide players. Try getting into high-end raids right after dinging L80 in WoW.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The "reaching the end game as fast as possible" was made prominent by WoW. In games such as EQ and FFXI, the journey was the game, though you had plenty of end game as well.
If you create a game where it is challenging and rewarding across all levels, then reaching end-game is not an issue. With games like Wow (which I played and enjoyed for 4 years), there was always better gear the next zone, the next instance, etc. So why waste time getting blue lvl 30 gear when you could just as easily get blue lvl 40 gear. Better yet, sprint to 80 in green gear and quest rewards so that you can start getting the BEST gear (at least till next content patch or expansion). See the pattern?
This is a non-sustainable modle. Only a company like Blizzard with huge financial resources and manpower can turn out content after content that is essentially the same. The carrot on a stick approach works because it caters to the worsts parts of human nature. The same parts that are responsible for addiction.
Other games, that build in compelling and "fun" content from level 1 to whatever the cap is, are "journey games" vs. WoW, Warhammer, AoC, and Aion are "destination games."
Having played Wow for 4 years and FFXI for 2 years, I much rather play FFXI "like" games then WoW clones. LOTRO is like FFXI in that there is compelling and rewarding content across all levels.
People need to start understanding that the concept of "bigger, better, faster" is an endless addition of ZEROES. The carrot on a stick approach is a shallow model for MMO's. Sadly, because WoW is the king of the market and it so happens to imply that approach, you get threads like this saying, "why do we need leveling?"
1. although not really valid for this conversation its worth pointing out that the sims was the best selling video game of all time. I think it still is.
Not an MMORPG, though.
2. how many MMO's have you played where people scream for housing? Even Darkfall players want houses.
Yup, but they don't want no advancement.
To help it along take out housing from the concept for a second. What about 100% object based MMO. By that I mean what makes you stronger for new areas is being able to get the stuff or the materials to make the stuff.
Just a diferent form of leveling. I think it would be cool to play something like that, but it's still leveling. Just like WoW's end game of gear grinding is a form of leveling.
You seem to want all players to be able to play together - which is a great ideal, but gear differences will still divide players. Try getting into high-end raids right after dinging L80 in WoW.
Well yes I agree its progression but its progression from a very different view point. I do agree that if the no-progression crowd got what they are really calling for that they would get bored fairly quickly becuase human beings will look for personal progression and call it fun, its natural for us. I do think however their points bring up unitented points of intrest.
Kind of like the orange juice effect. The core frustration is not always the spilt orange jucie that sets you off. If that makes sense.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If you don't like the adventure of leveling up then you're playing the wrong genre. I enjoy gaining levels and making my character better and the journey of it. If you start off max or its easy to get to max to me it just feels like you're playing in God mode. One of the core features of a RPG is progression so it makes no sense to skip the leveling IMO.
But the point is adventure can be had without leveling. Progression can occur at max level or no level, through uber questing and raids for equipment and upgrades of armors and stats. Why build a wall to a game, and said, "Stop, you have to pay time and mommy for X months before you get to have any fun."
I agree. To others..entertain this idea for a moment.
Object based MMO. By that I mean instead of skiling up, you gain stuff that you put in your house and or houses. Yes, we all want goals in a game, without question. But we are so used to skill progression we assume that no skill progression means no goals.
I could totally see a game that has a set number of skill points you can assign yourself and rearrage at will but not gains from experience. Instead however you can get objects trophies etc.
I challenge those that say nobody would be intrested in getting trophies for goals achieved becuase people do that in real life all the time.
Yes you can still progress at max level but, if you cut out the leveling aspect that is just one less way of having some sort of character progression. Yes you can still have an adventure at max level as well but to me its just more fun to level up while im adventuring. Like when you go through an area and mobs are kicking your ass then you come back a few levels later and you kick their ass. It just gives you that feeling that you actually are progressing and getting stronger.
When you hit max in most games you only get new gear , but there are some where you can earn new abilities at max which, IMO the more ways to progress your character the better. Thus why I woudln't just throw out leveling all together.
Character progression is also a core, traditional element of Role Playing Games. Levels have been the key element of measuring said progression, through gaining experience points, through completing quests or killing creatures (or roleplaying well in the case of tabletop games).
Just a brain-dump of thoughts after reading half-way through this thread, might be some topic retread... warning, it's off-the-cuff and possibly incoherent, and it's MASSIVE (as it's all actually been rattling in my brain amorphously for a while)... might edit and polish later. note that I use WoW a few times as a point of reference, as it's what i'm the most familiar with - i know it's trendy (or maybe you're genuine, but whatever) but please don't start bashing the game as a sort of response, it's just a point of reference and not the topic itself.
Progression Directions
Progression is typically described as Vertical or Horizontal. Vertical Progression is typically defined as player "power" scaling: damage output increases, health or survivability increases, etc. Sometimes exponentially, sometimes linearly (maybe even logarithmically, weee). Horizontal Progression is typically defined as a character gaining depth, rather than overt power scaling - i.e., a new/improved skill or talent, new/improved profession, a new aesthetic aspect (titles, collectables), etc.
Leveling and Progression
Levels are a convention brought over from pen-and-paper role-playing. It exists as a quick and easy to use measuring stick, useful for a human DM/GM to construct encounters and judge action success potential. From a computing standpoint, it's of course not necessary. It lives on as an established convention in computer RPGs (CRPGs) - traditionalized by rote.
Some people seem to equate Leveling with Progression. This is somewhat inaccurate in my opinion. Consider that: Leveling is Progression, but Progression is not Leveling. A lack of Levels does not strictly imply a lack of Progression; correspondingly the presence of Progression doesn't strictly imply (or rather require) the presence of Levels.
The primary problem with traditional MMORPG Leveling - in my opinion - is that it creates a rather significant artificial division between players. (Tabletop RPGs can usually accommodate level variation easily.) Given that the MMO aspect implies socialization and community-fostering, this can be a problem. There are positive aspects, however.
Positives:
Much like the tabletop equivalent, Levels can be an easy shorthand for other players to make very quick assessments, and there is significant value in that for some games.
Higher Leveled characters can have a sense that their time investment has manifested tangible Progression.
It can also provide "social capital" for a veteran player, which can usually be a positive thing.
If a game design accounts for it, the likely social stratification can possibly be useful or desirable. I'm not too solid on this one though.
However, this is otherwise unfortunate because (off the top of my head + not conclusive):
Friends and guild-mates of differing Levels typically experience various - often dramatic - penalties when grouping
Content lovingly crafted by developers very rapidly descends into obsolescence (this occurs due to Out Gearing as well, but the severity is usually dramatically less).
Characters searching for groups are typically limited (either technically or socially) to other characters very near to their Level, lowering their overall potential socializing.
Content intended for higher level characters can be simply impossible to attempt - due to scaling - for characters even "almost" at the right Level, despite the fact that they could be very remarkably skilled as a player(s). There's an imaginary, unnecessary sign reading "Sorry, you must be this tall to ride" on the content. This point requires deeper examination, as having content totally beyond a character's power can actually establish a sense of space and tangibility in his/her progression from a young adventurer to a wise warrior.
Social stratification is probable (people are people), and this is most likely undesirable (if unintended/unaccounted for) as this can engender a "negative" social climate.
Character abilities/skills typically are granted only gradually in a Leveling system, which can be good in the sense of a covert tutorial/training sense, but veteran players can feel frustrated at being "locked out" of tools they are probably "qualified" to use right away.
Veteran players must typically go through content they're very familiar with and don't find very engrossing anymore - especially if they've done it four or eight times. Frustration can build and a desire to "fast track" can be very common among these players, as the Leveling Progression system just seems to be holding them back.
Experience point-based Leveling systems risk devolving into mindless grinding which can potentially be very dissatisfying to players. Grinding can come in several flavors, such as killing monsters in such volumes as be numb any excitement from combat, or the rapid-fire acquisition and completion of quests (without reading and often using an assistant-type mod) in a similar manner. Players prone to this don't necessarily want to "stop and smell the roses" as they would just then feel like they're walking when they could be running to their goal.
Despite these things, Leveling is still of course a powerful tool for establishing a sense of character Progression. What I believe we need to do is find another mechanism to give this sense of Progression, but without (or minimizing) the negatives I listed above. My desire is not to replace Leveling, as it's certainly tried-and-true, but to have an alternative that game designers can consider for their games. An EVE-like system is certainly an intriguing path to start exploring... I hear Darkfall uses it (though I've never played it and hear some wildly mixed thoughts on it).
It occurs to me that Leveling doesn't strictly need to tie into power scaling (Vertical Progression), though this is the definition used in the vast majority of discussions, and how it's used in almost every MMORPG.
Another thing that bears investigation is "scaling content", essentially Vertically Progressing content matching with players to minimize content obsolescence. This can potentially be orders of magnitude more complex (and thus costly) to develop than non-scaling content. Probably a big topic.
Another topic worthy of discussion is a) that the only truly fleshed-out mechanics in most MMOs are usually combat-related and b) why that is. When the only way you can get from level 1 to level 80 is swinging that ole' sword again and again (or wigglin' those exhausted magical spirit fingers)... questing can start to feel samey. Especially on a second, third, fourth character. Some games try to fight this with Vertical Progression through (for example) crafting gameplay, but rarely is it as fleshed-out and correspondingly satisfying as the combat mechanics.
Progression Rate, Grind, Effort
We can say that Grind in a negative connotation is subjective, defined as Progress accompanied by a sense of tedium. A sense of tedium is of course going to be an individualized thing - based on your personality (tolerance for repetition), expectations and desires.
There is a lot of behavioral conditioning research relevant here. In fact - exponentially increasing experience requirements for sequential Levels is a conditioning effect: rapid initial Progression whets the appetite and subconsciously associates the "good feelings" with Level acquisitions (dings), and the inevitable slowing of acquisition can actually create an increasing desire to replicate the brief "euphoria" of early acquisitions. Properly tuned, that next "Ding!" will occur before your desire fades.
Another example is found in random Gear drops from bosses. This is actually quite similar gambling with slot machines, if you consider it. Just as with slot machines, people keep coming back because man oh man that next loot drop (lever pull) might be a jackpot! It goes a bit further than slot machines however, because while you might not hit a jackpot on the lever pull, your friends probably hit a jackpot!...and this will engender at least a modicum of "good feelings" (assuming you like your friends/teammates...).
Why am I talking about this? One, it's a large influence why many MMORPGs work the way they do and two, I have a controversial (silly?) hypothesis. Newer players (the "WoW Generation" if you will) are often derided by older players (the "EverQuest Generation") as wanting instant gratification and lacking much tolerance for what is essentially grinding. The newer players' reply is that these are games, not jobs. (This is humorously akin to older folks accusing younger generations as being lazy bums with no work ethic...) Anyways, I hypothesize that this might be a result of EverQuest (and kin) behaviorally conditioning older players to it's game design sensibilities, while WoW (and kin) have behaviorally conditioned the new players to it's own. Thus the more demanding aspects of early generation MMOs seem rather undesirable to the new players, as they didn't experience that conditioning. Caveat: I ain't no stinkin' psychologist...
{More content of a less psycho-babble nature eventually... Repetition, rewards, etc.}
Blah. I can tell this section is a little sloppy. Brain is slowing down as it's pretty late. :P
The Endgame
Some people say they prefer the pre-Endgame (the Journey) over the Endgame, and some say it's a bad or stupid concept.
Unfortunately, what they might not realize is that when using Levels as a progression paradigm, you're stuck with setting a finite number of them. With a finite number comes, of course, a Level Cap. With a Level Cap naturally comes Endgame content: stuff to keep capped players occupied.
The positive side of Endgame content is that designers can finally design and fine tune challenges to a greater degree, knowing just how powerful players are, as players can't "Out Level" and thusly trivialize the content through scaling (though Out Gearing is a common, and somewhat grudgingly accepted occurrence - though it's usually considerably milder than Out Leveling the content).
Given the "guaranteed" power levels of capped characters, fantastic and challenging content can come to exist. As an example, WoW has fantastic "epic" Endgame raid encounters pitting players against demigods, demon lords, titans, dragons, giant robots (!) and more. While this content could theoretically be made for non-Level Capped players, it would be almost impossible to achieve a high level of polish and challenging tuning (it's difficult to tune even at Endgame!).
It's due to this sometimes spectacularly superior quality of content at Endgame compared to content visited while Leveling that some veteran players express a desire to reach Level Cap quickly, or posit that Endgame is "where the game begins". In addition, Leveling content in most games is static and "theme park"-ish, which makes the often challenge-less journey through it decreasingly interesting on subsequent visits, and creating a desire to more quickly reach the Endgame-style content (which is typically almost as static as Leveling content, but will offer usually quite different challenges based on the character archetype).
Due to the completion of Leveling ("direct' character Progression) turning into the start of Gear Progression ("indirect' character Progression) at Endgame in many games, some players feel a bit less engaged. Perhaps in a sense the nature of Gear Progression is more "materialistic", because only the character's inventory is getting better rather than the character itself. Not to say that getting "phat lewt" isn't fun or exciting - it often is - but rather that the completion of a character's personal journey is a victory bittersweet.
Where's this all going? Well, if we don't have a Leveling Vertical Progression system, "Endgame content" can become just "Game content", integrating more cohesively with all the other content (such as questing and story exposition). We can then better fight content obsolescence, resist social degradation and perhaps even try to unify (at least partially) character and gear Progression. Granted, even without a Leveling Progression system, player power can still end up indirectly Vertically Progressing via other means (i.e., Gear).
Yes you can still progress at max level but, if you cut out the leveling aspect that is just one less way of having some sort of character progression. Yes you can still have an adventure at max level as well but to me its just more fun to level up while im adventuring. Like when you go through an area and mobs are kicking your ass then you come back a few levels later and you kick their ass. It just gives you that feeling that you actually are progressing and getting stronger.
When you hit max in most games you only get new gear , but there are some where you can earn new abilities at max which, IMO the more ways to progress your character the better. Thus why I woudln't just throw out leveling all together.
Object acquisition is a form of character development. In fact, more people in real life practice it then they do not.
Yes, we all want progression I am not questioning that at all. I am just suggesting that people have got their heads stuck in a limited known forumla of how that happens in an MMO.
I telling you, object based progression could very much work.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The brain uses dopamine. dopamine fires in the brain based on a reward methodology giving the body pleasure.
People with addictive problems have brain inhibtors that prevent the brain from using dopamine as efficiently as it should. (Side note: more and more evidence is coming out that supports the idea that external factors affect brain chemistry. In other words, its not the brain chemistry that is the problem its the social conditioning, anyway back on topic).
So what this all means basically is that for an addictive person reqjuire more reward and more pleasure. now here is the problem with the video game arguement.
1. to make something not addictive one would have to make it not have an award system and not give us pleasure. This is why things that are boring turn out to not be addictive.
2. Video games are successful at their ethical goal becuase they are addictive. (goal of providing us with fun, pleasure and satisfaction).
I suggest that the focus of addiction not be on the catalyst but the dopamine question itself.
(p.s. we ALL require a reward system to keep ourselves health and happy, the only question is how much reward system to do we. If we dont get it in real life, we get it in the virtual world)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The brain uses dopamine. dopamine fires in the brain based on a reward methodology giving the body pleasure.
People with addictive problems have brain inhibtors that prevent the brain from using dopamine as efficiently as it should. (Side note: more and more evidence is coming out that supports the idea that external factors affect brain chemistry. In other words, its not the brain chemistry that is the problem its the social conditioning, anyway back on topic).
So what this all means basically is that for an addictive person reqjuire more reward and more pleasure. now here is the problem with the video game arguement.
1. to make something not addictive one would have to make it not have an award system and not give us pleasure. This is why things that are boring turn out to not be addictive.
2. Video games are successful at their ethical goal becuase they are addictive. (goal of providing us with fun, pleasure and satisfaction).
I suggest that the focus of addiction not be on the catalyst but the dopamine question itself.
(p.s. we ALL require a reward system to keep ourselves health and happy, the only question is how much reward system to do we. If we dont get it in real life, we get it in the virtual world)
I'm not going to dispute any of that. Psychology/philosophy is not my cup of tea.
I can only say this: I like levelling. I very much enjoy seeing steady, constant progression to my characters. I like the sense of growth they go through. I like knowing that if a particular encounter is too hard, I can come back after some progression, and kick its ass.
Now, I thought back to some games I've played and enjoyed that did not have this. Everything from Peggle to heavy story driven games like Hard Rain. Yet even in those, there is a form of progression. I a game like Peggle or Portal, it's a learning progression. Through trial and error I learned strategies and tactics. There was also the reward of more content opening up because of my progression. This is more true in a game like Hard Rain, where the story itself is the reward, seeing it unfold, and progressing through to a satisfying ending.
However, I don't think those types of progression would work well in an MMO. A purely story driven game can only be told once, before the majority of 'AHA!' moments are gone. And Peggle, while fun, well, who would pay a monthly fee for Tetris?
I'm not saying alternatives methods to what we have now in MMOs couldn't be fun, but I think you'd be hard pressed to get rid of the levelling and gear progression I enjoy so much and still have me enjoy the MMO. Speaking strictly for my own tastes, anyway.
The brain uses dopamine. dopamine fires in the brain based on a reward methodology giving the body pleasure.
People with addictive problems have brain inhibtors that prevent the brain from using dopamine as efficiently as it should. (Side note: more and more evidence is coming out that supports the idea that external factors affect brain chemistry. In other words, its not the brain chemistry that is the problem its the social conditioning, anyway back on topic).
So what this all means basically is that for an addictive person reqjuire more reward and more pleasure. now here is the problem with the video game arguement.
1. to make something not addictive one would have to make it not have an award system and not give us pleasure. This is why things that are boring turn out to not be addictive.
2. Video games are successful at their ethical goal becuase they are addictive. (goal of providing us with fun, pleasure and satisfaction).
I suggest that the focus of addiction not be on the catalyst but the dopamine question itself.
(p.s. we ALL require a reward system to keep ourselves health and happy, the only question is how much reward system to do we. If we dont get it in real life, we get it in the virtual world)
I'm not going to dispute any of that. Psychology/philosophy is not my cup of tea.
I can only say this: I like levelling. I very much enjoy seeing steady, constant progression to my characters. I like the sense of growth they go through. I like knowing that if a particular encounter is too hard, I can come back after some progression, and kick its ass.
Now, I thought back to some games I've played and enjoyed that did not have this. Everything from Peggle to heavy story driven games like Hard Rain. Yet even in those, there is a form of progression. I a game like Peggle or Portal, it's a learning progression. Through trial and error I learned strategies and tactics. There was also the reward of more content opening up because of my progression. This is more true in a game like Hard Rain, where the story itself is the reward, seeing it unfold, and progressing through to a satisfying ending.
However, I don't think those types of progression would work well in an MMO. A purely story driven game can only be told once, before the majority of 'AHA!' moments are gone. And Peggle, while fun, well, who would pay a monthly fee for Tetris?
I'm not saying alternatives methods to what we have now in MMOs couldn't be fun, but I think you'd be hard pressed to get rid of the levelling and gear progression I enjoy so much and still have me enjoy the MMO. Speaking strictly for my own tastes, anyway.
well as someone who grew up with levels and actually enjoys it as well I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I think it could work well and I think I would be surprised to find i would enjoy it.
I have been leveling up since I was 13 and I am 42 and I have enjoyed the whole trip. That is has 'hard wired' into thinking as it can get. which is why I suggest we might be so used to it we might have a hard time thinking it could work differently. Then again, I could be wrong.
EDIT: what I think would work is Object based Progression for an MMO
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
Just a diferent form of leveling. I think it would be cool to play something like that, but it's still leveling. Just like WoW's end game of gear grinding is a form of leveling.
You seem to want all players to be able to play together - which is a great ideal, but gear differences will still divide players. Try getting into high-end raids right after dinging L80 in WoW.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The "reaching the end game as fast as possible" was made prominent by WoW. In games such as EQ and FFXI, the journey was the game, though you had plenty of end game as well.
If you create a game where it is challenging and rewarding across all levels, then reaching end-game is not an issue. With games like Wow (which I played and enjoyed for 4 years), there was always better gear the next zone, the next instance, etc. So why waste time getting blue lvl 30 gear when you could just as easily get blue lvl 40 gear. Better yet, sprint to 80 in green gear and quest rewards so that you can start getting the BEST gear (at least till next content patch or expansion). See the pattern?
This is a non-sustainable modle. Only a company like Blizzard with huge financial resources and manpower can turn out content after content that is essentially the same. The carrot on a stick approach works because it caters to the worsts parts of human nature. The same parts that are responsible for addiction.
Other games, that build in compelling and "fun" content from level 1 to whatever the cap is, are "journey games" vs. WoW, Warhammer, AoC, and Aion are "destination games."
Having played Wow for 4 years and FFXI for 2 years, I much rather play FFXI "like" games then WoW clones. LOTRO is like FFXI in that there is compelling and rewarding content across all levels.
People need to start understanding that the concept of "bigger, better, faster" is an endless addition of ZEROES. The carrot on a stick approach is a shallow model for MMO's. Sadly, because WoW is the king of the market and it so happens to imply that approach, you get threads like this saying, "why do we need leveling?"
Well yes I agree its progression but its progression from a very different view point. I do agree that if the no-progression crowd got what they are really calling for that they would get bored fairly quickly becuase human beings will look for personal progression and call it fun, its natural for us. I do think however their points bring up unitented points of intrest.
Kind of like the orange juice effect. The core frustration is not always the spilt orange jucie that sets you off. If that makes sense.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yes you can still progress at max level but, if you cut out the leveling aspect that is just one less way of having some sort of character progression. Yes you can still have an adventure at max level as well but to me its just more fun to level up while im adventuring. Like when you go through an area and mobs are kicking your ass then you come back a few levels later and you kick their ass. It just gives you that feeling that you actually are progressing and getting stronger.
When you hit max in most games you only get new gear , but there are some where you can earn new abilities at max which, IMO the more ways to progress your character the better. Thus why I woudln't just throw out leveling all together.
Great paragraph.
Another great one. ^_^
I like cyphers', kyleran's and redchampion's posts as well: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3477026 , http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3477161 , http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3480132 .
{ Incoming mad ravings: }
Just a brain-dump of thoughts after reading half-way through this thread, might be some topic retread... warning, it's off-the-cuff and possibly incoherent, and it's MASSIVE (as it's all actually been rattling in my brain amorphously for a while)... might edit and polish later. note that I use WoW a few times as a point of reference, as it's what i'm the most familiar with - i know it's trendy (or maybe you're genuine, but whatever) but please don't start bashing the game as a sort of response, it's just a point of reference and not the topic itself.
Progression Directions
Progression is typically described as Vertical or Horizontal. Vertical Progression is typically defined as player "power" scaling: damage output increases, health or survivability increases, etc. Sometimes exponentially, sometimes linearly (maybe even logarithmically, weee). Horizontal Progression is typically defined as a character gaining depth, rather than overt power scaling - i.e., a new/improved skill or talent, new/improved profession, a new aesthetic aspect (titles, collectables), etc.
Leveling and Progression
Levels are a convention brought over from pen-and-paper role-playing. It exists as a quick and easy to use measuring stick, useful for a human DM/GM to construct encounters and judge action success potential. From a computing standpoint, it's of course not necessary. It lives on as an established convention in computer RPGs (CRPGs) - traditionalized by rote.
Some people seem to equate Leveling with Progression. This is somewhat inaccurate in my opinion. Consider that: Leveling is Progression, but Progression is not Leveling. A lack of Levels does not strictly imply a lack of Progression; correspondingly the presence of Progression doesn't strictly imply (or rather require) the presence of Levels.
The primary problem with traditional MMORPG Leveling - in my opinion - is that it creates a rather significant artificial division between players. (Tabletop RPGs can usually accommodate level variation easily.) Given that the MMO aspect implies socialization and community-fostering, this can be a problem. There are positive aspects, however.
Positives:
Much like the tabletop equivalent, Levels can be an easy shorthand for other players to make very quick assessments, and there is significant value in that for some games.
Higher Leveled characters can have a sense that their time investment has manifested tangible Progression.
It can also provide "social capital" for a veteran player, which can usually be a positive thing.
If a game design accounts for it, the likely social stratification can possibly be useful or desirable. I'm not too solid on this one though.
However, this is otherwise unfortunate because (off the top of my head + not conclusive):
Friends and guild-mates of differing Levels typically experience various - often dramatic - penalties when grouping
Content lovingly crafted by developers very rapidly descends into obsolescence (this occurs due to Out Gearing as well, but the severity is usually dramatically less).
Characters searching for groups are typically limited (either technically or socially) to other characters very near to their Level, lowering their overall potential socializing.
Content intended for higher level characters can be simply impossible to attempt - due to scaling - for characters even "almost" at the right Level, despite the fact that they could be very remarkably skilled as a player(s). There's an imaginary, unnecessary sign reading "Sorry, you must be this tall to ride" on the content. This point requires deeper examination, as having content totally beyond a character's power can actually establish a sense of space and tangibility in his/her progression from a young adventurer to a wise warrior.
Social stratification is probable (people are people), and this is most likely undesirable (if unintended/unaccounted for) as this can engender a "negative" social climate.
Character abilities/skills typically are granted only gradually in a Leveling system, which can be good in the sense of a covert tutorial/training sense, but veteran players can feel frustrated at being "locked out" of tools they are probably "qualified" to use right away.
Veteran players must typically go through content they're very familiar with and don't find very engrossing anymore - especially if they've done it four or eight times. Frustration can build and a desire to "fast track" can be very common among these players, as the Leveling Progression system just seems to be holding them back.
Experience point-based Leveling systems risk devolving into mindless grinding which can potentially be very dissatisfying to players. Grinding can come in several flavors, such as killing monsters in such volumes as be numb any excitement from combat, or the rapid-fire acquisition and completion of quests (without reading and often using an assistant-type mod) in a similar manner. Players prone to this don't necessarily want to "stop and smell the roses" as they would just then feel like they're walking when they could be running to their goal.
Despite these things, Leveling is still of course a powerful tool for establishing a sense of character Progression. What I believe we need to do is find another mechanism to give this sense of Progression, but without (or minimizing) the negatives I listed above. My desire is not to replace Leveling, as it's certainly tried-and-true, but to have an alternative that game designers can consider for their games. An EVE-like system is certainly an intriguing path to start exploring... I hear Darkfall uses it (though I've never played it and hear some wildly mixed thoughts on it).
It occurs to me that Leveling doesn't strictly need to tie into power scaling (Vertical Progression), though this is the definition used in the vast majority of discussions, and how it's used in almost every MMORPG.
Another thing that bears investigation is "scaling content", essentially Vertically Progressing content matching with players to minimize content obsolescence. This can potentially be orders of magnitude more complex (and thus costly) to develop than non-scaling content. Probably a big topic.
Another topic worthy of discussion is a) that the only truly fleshed-out mechanics in most MMOs are usually combat-related and b) why that is. When the only way you can get from level 1 to level 80 is swinging that ole' sword again and again (or wigglin' those exhausted magical spirit fingers)... questing can start to feel samey. Especially on a second, third, fourth character. Some games try to fight this with Vertical Progression through (for example) crafting gameplay, but rarely is it as fleshed-out and correspondingly satisfying as the combat mechanics.
Progression Rate, Grind, Effort
We can say that Grind in a negative connotation is subjective, defined as Progress accompanied by a sense of tedium. A sense of tedium is of course going to be an individualized thing - based on your personality (tolerance for repetition), expectations and desires.
There is a lot of behavioral conditioning research relevant here. In fact - exponentially increasing experience requirements for sequential Levels is a conditioning effect: rapid initial Progression whets the appetite and subconsciously associates the "good feelings" with Level acquisitions (dings), and the inevitable slowing of acquisition can actually create an increasing desire to replicate the brief "euphoria" of early acquisitions. Properly tuned, that next "Ding!" will occur before your desire fades.
Another example is found in random Gear drops from bosses. This is actually quite similar gambling with slot machines, if you consider it. Just as with slot machines, people keep coming back because man oh man that next loot drop (lever pull) might be a jackpot! It goes a bit further than slot machines however, because while you might not hit a jackpot on the lever pull, your friends probably hit a jackpot!...and this will engender at least a modicum of "good feelings" (assuming you like your friends/teammates...).
Why am I talking about this? One, it's a large influence why many MMORPGs work the way they do and two, I have a controversial (silly?) hypothesis. Newer players (the "WoW Generation" if you will) are often derided by older players (the "EverQuest Generation") as wanting instant gratification and lacking much tolerance for what is essentially grinding. The newer players' reply is that these are games, not jobs. (This is humorously akin to older folks accusing younger generations as being lazy bums with no work ethic...) Anyways, I hypothesize that this might be a result of EverQuest (and kin) behaviorally conditioning older players to it's game design sensibilities, while WoW (and kin) have behaviorally conditioned the new players to it's own. Thus the more demanding aspects of early generation MMOs seem rather undesirable to the new players, as they didn't experience that conditioning. Caveat: I ain't no stinkin' psychologist...
{More content of a less psycho-babble nature eventually... Repetition, rewards, etc.}
Blah. I can tell this section is a little sloppy. Brain is slowing down as it's pretty late. :P
The Endgame
Some people say they prefer the pre-Endgame (the Journey) over the Endgame, and some say it's a bad or stupid concept.
Unfortunately, what they might not realize is that when using Levels as a progression paradigm, you're stuck with setting a finite number of them. With a finite number comes, of course, a Level Cap. With a Level Cap naturally comes Endgame content: stuff to keep capped players occupied.
The positive side of Endgame content is that designers can finally design and fine tune challenges to a greater degree, knowing just how powerful players are, as players can't "Out Level" and thusly trivialize the content through scaling (though Out Gearing is a common, and somewhat grudgingly accepted occurrence - though it's usually considerably milder than Out Leveling the content).
Given the "guaranteed" power levels of capped characters, fantastic and challenging content can come to exist. As an example, WoW has fantastic "epic" Endgame raid encounters pitting players against demigods, demon lords, titans, dragons, giant robots (!) and more. While this content could theoretically be made for non-Level Capped players, it would be almost impossible to achieve a high level of polish and challenging tuning (it's difficult to tune even at Endgame!).
It's due to this sometimes spectacularly superior quality of content at Endgame compared to content visited while Leveling that some veteran players express a desire to reach Level Cap quickly, or posit that Endgame is "where the game begins". In addition, Leveling content in most games is static and "theme park"-ish, which makes the often challenge-less journey through it decreasingly interesting on subsequent visits, and creating a desire to more quickly reach the Endgame-style content (which is typically almost as static as Leveling content, but will offer usually quite different challenges based on the character archetype).
Due to the completion of Leveling ("direct' character Progression) turning into the start of Gear Progression ("indirect' character Progression) at Endgame in many games, some players feel a bit less engaged. Perhaps in a sense the nature of Gear Progression is more "materialistic", because only the character's inventory is getting better rather than the character itself. Not to say that getting "phat lewt" isn't fun or exciting - it often is - but rather that the completion of a character's personal journey is a victory bittersweet.
Where's this all going? Well, if we don't have a Leveling Vertical Progression system, "Endgame content" can become just "Game content", integrating more cohesively with all the other content (such as questing and story exposition). We can then better fight content obsolescence, resist social degradation and perhaps even try to unify (at least partially) character and gear Progression. Granted, even without a Leveling Progression system, player power can still end up indirectly Vertically Progressing via other means (i.e., Gear).
....the...end? :-)
Object acquisition is a form of character development. In fact, more people in real life practice it then they do not.
Yes, we all want progression I am not questioning that at all. I am just suggesting that people have got their heads stuck in a limited known forumla of how that happens in an MMO.
I telling you, object based progression could very much work.
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ON ADDICTION:
the science as I understand it is this.
The brain uses dopamine. dopamine fires in the brain based on a reward methodology giving the body pleasure.
People with addictive problems have brain inhibtors that prevent the brain from using dopamine as efficiently as it should. (Side note: more and more evidence is coming out that supports the idea that external factors affect brain chemistry. In other words, its not the brain chemistry that is the problem its the social conditioning, anyway back on topic).
So what this all means basically is that for an addictive person reqjuire more reward and more pleasure. now here is the problem with the video game arguement.
1. to make something not addictive one would have to make it not have an award system and not give us pleasure. This is why things that are boring turn out to not be addictive.
2. Video games are successful at their ethical goal becuase they are addictive. (goal of providing us with fun, pleasure and satisfaction).
I suggest that the focus of addiction not be on the catalyst but the dopamine question itself.
(p.s. we ALL require a reward system to keep ourselves health and happy, the only question is how much reward system to do we. If we dont get it in real life, we get it in the virtual world)
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I'm not going to dispute any of that. Psychology/philosophy is not my cup of tea.
I can only say this: I like levelling. I very much enjoy seeing steady, constant progression to my characters. I like the sense of growth they go through. I like knowing that if a particular encounter is too hard, I can come back after some progression, and kick its ass.
Now, I thought back to some games I've played and enjoyed that did not have this. Everything from Peggle to heavy story driven games like Hard Rain. Yet even in those, there is a form of progression. I a game like Peggle or Portal, it's a learning progression. Through trial and error I learned strategies and tactics. There was also the reward of more content opening up because of my progression. This is more true in a game like Hard Rain, where the story itself is the reward, seeing it unfold, and progressing through to a satisfying ending.
However, I don't think those types of progression would work well in an MMO. A purely story driven game can only be told once, before the majority of 'AHA!' moments are gone. And Peggle, while fun, well, who would pay a monthly fee for Tetris?
I'm not saying alternatives methods to what we have now in MMOs couldn't be fun, but I think you'd be hard pressed to get rid of the levelling and gear progression I enjoy so much and still have me enjoy the MMO. Speaking strictly for my own tastes, anyway.
well as someone who grew up with levels and actually enjoys it as well I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I think it could work well and I think I would be surprised to find i would enjoy it.
I have been leveling up since I was 13 and I am 42 and I have enjoyed the whole trip. That is has 'hard wired' into thinking as it can get. which is why I suggest we might be so used to it we might have a hard time thinking it could work differently. Then again, I could be wrong.
EDIT: what I think would work is Object based Progression for an MMO
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me