A: Because without the randomized operant conditioning people would cancel their subscriptions and we couldn't make any money. At least with leveling and gear progression we can gaurentee about X months of subscription per customer.
A: Because without the randomized operant conditioning people would cancel their subscriptions and we couldn't make any money. At least with leveling and gear progression we can gaurentee about X months of subscription per customer.
only of a certain KIND of customer. the kind of customer that has around 300 OTHER choices out there.
they get EXTREMELY little of my money. and virtually NONE from all the other non-RPG gamers out there that would never dream of reading this forum (or playing these games).
A simplistic version of typical thempark players view is this :
"A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies"
And thats where it all went wrong, now all think its a race to end so real price is waiting.
When i first enter a mmo from start i enjoy game and slowly progress absorb this new wonderous fantasy world(i mostly play fantasy mmo's).
Many these day people only complain about to much grind and want it all fast as posible if not they get bored thats what wrong with majority of mmo community they can't enjoy a mmo gameworld anymore.
Result bots/macro/exploit/hacks/addons/gold-itemsellers and itemshops:(
Developers try give players i nice and diverse looking world full of task to do and what most do run through it if its a race not notice world around them blindly go to end game.
So what we get is more and more meaningless gameplay focus on giving as much as they can fluff fast mindless gameplay so everybody is in no time at endgame.
That a mmo was first to give players a huge nice fantasy world to explore do stuff in pace that could take many months has slowly removed over years becouse in this day and age we want instant rewards instant uberness bah:(
The sad part is... and I say this not at all in a facetious way...
People who think MMORPGs are "all about the end-game" and would do away with leveling to "get there faster", have absolutely *no* concept of what playing a true MMORPG was originally intended to be and used to be, back before WoW came along, bringing millions of people who had never heard of a MMO. Yet, so many of them suddenly became "experts" on the genre dictating what MMORPG is and isn't supposed to be. Well isn't that nice. This, from many people, some of whom would argue that Blizzard invented the MMO.
I saw someone call EQ1 a "crappy WoW clone" - that's just one of myriad examples of how freaking clueless some of these people are or at least were to the genre they'd just unknowingly become part of. I've spoken to or otherwise read posts by people who had no idea that WoW was a MMORPG; they didn't even know what a MMORPG was. They were just eager to play the next Warcraft game.
Let's face it, most MMOs coming out these days don't qualify for the RPG label. I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot. Many others to follow in its footsteps (or try to ride its coattails as it were) were pretty much the same.
But sure... let some developers give these people an all end-game "MMO" where all they're doing is raiding for leet gear, so they can burn through it all even faster and bitch even more about how there's "not enough content".
MMORPGs are based off of MUDs... which were based off of table-top RPGs which were typically about long, on-going adventures and campaigns... They were not a race to level cap where the players would "raid" over and over again for fancy loot. Yes, indeed, they were about "the journey", not "the destination".
Though... I guess for people who think in such blatantly one-dimensional terms, "phat lewt" is all that would matter to them.
In closing, all I'll say is that anyone who argues that MMORPGs should have no levels and allow you to skip straight to the end-game forfeits any credibility to claim they're not only interested in getting the "phat lewt" as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and with as little effort as possible.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Leveling is like an elogated tutorial. As you level up, you learn how the game works, and then get to the endgame. A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies. So why not change the dynamic a bit. A dozen levels might be enough to allow someone to learn how to play a character, or some form of level-less system. The point is, after so many different MMOs, levelling has gotten pretty boring. So let's do away with it. It might help the persistant worlds, too. There's plenty of mid level areas that are never revisited once a character levels past them. Suddenly, there's no more need for these areas, and the whole world can be relevant at max level play, which would then be the majority of the game.
In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level. That's the benefit of a human DM. But MMOs don't have that. So let's try and put people at the max level that much faster, and stop spending time, effort, and money on the mid-game that is really nothing more than a time sink.
My case in point is Aion. Abyss PvP is really cool. The questing and leveling in that game makes me want to hurl myself out of a sixty third story window. Focus on the good parts, and just give the rest of it the axe.
Leveling is the entire point of RPGs. Progression of your character. You build up so that your character gains experience and abilities so that they can move on to harder and more rewarding content.
If you cut out the leveling and progression you might as well be playing Street Fighter, or Super Mario.
Nah... they'd only bitch about having to go through worlds 1-1 to 8-3 and ask "why can't we just go straight to world 8-4 and cut out all that boring crap before it? Why should we have to actually play the game before we're able to beat it? That's so lame!"
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wonder if there is perhaps a market for a MMO fantasy themed action game (I guess not a FPS, 3PS), as that seems to be what a MMORPG without levels would be.
Levels can be a bit stiffling, but they are good for many things.
Firstly, immediate positive feedback. Leveling up feels good. Much better than say, skill X improving by 1%
Secondly, level provides a rough estimate of a characters ability, thus you can easily design areas in a large game. This also goes to monsters.
In real life, you know say that you shouldn't mess with a tiger or bear. But when you encounter a monster in game you have no idea - their graphics and size are rarely indicative of their combat ability. Or what they are like in the real world. (I've been ganked by packs of deer in Lotro, for instance. The aggro and toughness of the ones in Everdim is crazy). But you can see their level and know where you should try to fight or run.
Levels (skill based or level based) make it so not everyone gets to end game at the same time. Sometimes the leveling rate can even turn people off of a game, but I say that if I can play a game where it's hard to level and max out, I'll feel like I accomplished something more than if I maxed out a game where everyone can get to what I did with ease and little difficulty.
... the best mmo wouldn't be level based. It would be skill based where one gets stronger by doing. A quest shouldn't be what you get just so you can level faster, it should be there just to be a quest. Nowadays people would rather have quests give them a crap ton of experience, but that doesn't make as much sense to me as just killing things... even if it's just the same rat. Doing the quest shouldn't make one stronger, what must be done to complete that quest should, which is actually often just killing rats.
Hard levels add to personal achievement. Often that achievement might be geared only to one's personal patience and determination vs someone else's. The easier it is to level, the less accomplished you are when you are maxed level.
No levels take away that form of achievement, but increases game accessibility.
No levels also means that there is little to no progression since skill based games are actually a more clever and realistic and sensible way to hide the feeling of levels.
If you want no levels, go play an FPS or one of those social only mmos.
I was replying on the OP, not on every other post on the thread including yours.
You were just going on your general "WoW is so great and all other MMO's suck" rant (though blissfully not with that 2nd part in your post this time).
So basically you were replying on a generic thread, non-WoW forumthread, as you always do: 'if you want to enjoy leveling, go play WoW the way I suggested'.
Stunning.
No you were referring to me without giving elements to why levels are trivial if you want them to be trivial (with the option of putting experience off - just like in EQ btw).
I showed that putting off experience option gains is a decent solution to the OP's problem.
YOU decide how or not to level. A very valid added point to this discussion....
I suggest you look more into what BLIZZARD is doing as ... they simply have more resources in their hands than probably 95% of all other developpers combined.
So I rather refer to the market leader in MMO's (and guys like Rob Pardo) when viewing some discussions.
You know the kind of guys that actually MAKE games work instead of losing time about a rather old problem of leveling these days.
Old because it is fast and even as fast as or as slow as the user himself wants it to be...
So you don't have to ignore me, you simply ignore Blizzard techniques (...) as the market leader.
That's stunning.
Yeah, yeah, you're always going on about how everyone should look at how Blizzard is doing things and how WoW beats all the other MMO's in every aspect someone can think of and how awesome Rob Pardo is and sucky the rest... frankly, in the few weeks that I've started visiting here more I've grown tired of seeing you post the same message over and over again in all these threads around no matter what the OP was. But give me a few more of your posts, and I can predict how your response will be on whatever subject, because that's what you sound like, a broken record stuck on the WoW happy song.
And for the record, I do not hate WoW, I like it, and I do not think the way Blizzard does things should be ignored; but neither do I think Blizzard is the Second Coming what you apparently seem to think with a dedication that almost feels religious.
On topic: the leveling system as it is now in many current MMO's is in need of a revision or a make over. When you level the first time it's nice to see all the content, but when you make your second and third alt many people want to reach end level content as fast as possible. So it's a shame that 80-90% of the content will be rendered obsolete and forgotten within a few months, while MMO's are built to last for many months more, even years if possible.
EVE Online is a good example of how things can be done differently. Progression is one of the key elements of a MMO, but the level range system is just one way to measure that, and I'm curious to see how upcoming games like TSW or GW2 will do it. Most importantly, whether it's character leveling or gear leveling or skill leveling, I think a game has done it right when it doesn't feel like a grind (even if it is).
Sidenote:
Actually there is a reason Rob Pardo turned EQ1 into a multi million based new MMO.
Without him you would stare the average 10 hours on a screen before the fun started.
After Pardo took his big red crayon and deleted all the non-fun stuff in MMO's, we actually had a ... video game without the need to live in a basement for 12 hours a day.
Ahhh yes... the overused generalization that the only people who can enjoy a MMO from the EQ "mold" are those who live in the basement and can play all day.
Yet again, that statement says more about the mindset of those saying it than it does about the people they're presuming to describe.
You do realize that there are people playing WoW - the "answer" to EQ that you refer to - for 12+ hours a day, and maybe even "their parents basement" right? In fact, due to the sheer number of players WoW has, it's probably more than in other MMOs.
Speaking for myself, I prefer MMOs from that "era" - FFXI is my main MMO - and I don't play 12 hours a day. I don't live in the basement... I have a full time job and a real life outside of games. I simply am not in a hurry to get to the end game and am capable of enjoying whatever I'm doing when I'm logged in. I know a good number of others like myself who share the same circumstances.
I would further argue that if such a MMO existed where you were level cap from day 1 and doing all the "good stuff" people seem to be focused on, there would still be people playing it 12+ hours a day, "from their basement".
So... does that mean Rob Pardo with his magic red crayon isn't quite the "hero" he seems? Or could it be that maybe it has more to do with the disposition of the individuals playing the games than it does the games themselves?
And if anyone is going to say "well the time in WoW is better spent because it's not all useless grind"... save it. The idea is of people spending 12 hours in their basement playing a game, not the content of the game itself.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually there is a reason Rob Pardo turned EQ1 into a multi million based new MMO.
Without him you would stare the average 10 hours on a screen before the fun started.
After Pardo took his big red crayon and deleted all the non-fun stuff in MMO's, we actually had a ... video game without the need to live in a basement for 12 hours a day.
Ahhh yes... the overused generalization that the only people who can enjoy a MMO from the EQ "mold" are those who live in the basement and can play all day.
Yet again, that statement says more about the mindset of those saying it than it does about the people they're talking about.
You do realize that there are people playing WoW - the "answer" to EQ that you refer to - for 12+ hours a day, and maybe even "their parents basement" right? In fact, due to the sheer number of players WoW has, it's probably more than in other MMOs.
Speaking for myself, I prefer MMOs from that "era" - FFXI is my main MMO - and I don't play 12 hours a day. I don't live in the basement... I have a full time job and a real life outside of games. I simply am not in a hurry to get to the end game and am capable of enjoying whatever I'm doing when I'm logged in. I know a good number of others like myself who share the same circumstances.
So... does that mean Rob Pardo with his magic red crayon isn't quite the "hero" he seems? Or could it be that maybe it has more to do with the disposition of the individuals playing the games than it does the games themselves?
And if anyone is going to say "well the time in WoW is better spent because it's not all useless grind"... save it. The idea is of people spending 12 hours in their basement playing a game, not the content of the game itself.
It simply means Pardo put a video game into mmo's, deleting all the things that were not fun.
The result in subscription numbers and the 5 billion dollars + this game made up till .... shows its result.
Nothing more nothing less.
If you can come up with the same end results: be my guest.
In the meantime, I play WOW even without "leveling" in the tradtional way. So it shows you can redefine even the leveling.
That's the secret of Pardo: the grind is kept to a bare minimum and ONLY if you like it.
I like leveling in PvP and advancing my stats and gear in" level less" PVE. It gives me a year of full leveling with a PvP challenge (and titles/prestige under way).
All possible in the game with "the fast leveling". Curious isn't it ? This thread being made redundant by its own mechanism.
...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Actually there is a reason Rob Pardo turned EQ1 into a multi million based new MMO.
Without him you would stare the average 10 hours on a screen before the fun started.
After Pardo took his big red crayon and deleted all the non-fun stuff in MMO's, we actually had a ... video game without the need to live in a basement for 12 hours a day.
Ahhh yes... the overused generalization that the only people who can enjoy a MMO from the EQ "mold" are those who live in the basement and can play all day.
Yet again, that statement says more about the mindset of those saying it than it does about the people they're talking about.
You do realize that there are people playing WoW - the "answer" to EQ that you refer to - for 12+ hours a day, and maybe even "their parents basement" right? In fact, due to the sheer number of players WoW has, it's probably more than in other MMOs.
Speaking for myself, I prefer MMOs from that "era" - FFXI is my main MMO - and I don't play 12 hours a day. I don't live in the basement... I have a full time job and a real life outside of games. I simply am not in a hurry to get to the end game and am capable of enjoying whatever I'm doing when I'm logged in. I know a good number of others like myself who share the same circumstances.
So... does that mean Rob Pardo with his magic red crayon isn't quite the "hero" he seems? Or could it be that maybe it has more to do with the disposition of the individuals playing the games than it does the games themselves?
And if anyone is going to say "well the time in WoW is better spent because it's not all useless grind"... save it. The idea is of people spending 12 hours in their basement playing a game, not the content of the game itself.
It simply means Pardo put a video game into mmo's, deleting all the things that were not fun.
The result in subscription numbers and the 5 billion dollars + this game made up till .... shows its result.
Nothing more nothing less.
If you can come up with the same end results: be my guest.
In the meantime, I play WOW even without "leveling" in the tradtional way. So it shows you can redefine even the leveling.
That's the secret of Pardo: the grind is kept to a bare minimum and ONLY if you like it.
I like leveling in PvP and advancing my stats and gear in" level less" PVE. It gives me a year of full leveling with a PvP challenge (and titles/prestige under way).
All possible in the game with "the fast leveling". Curious isn't it ? This thread being made redundant by its own mechanism.
...
And your reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. I'm not discussing the reasons for WoW's success. Read my post again. How little "grind" there is in the game in your opinion (plenty of others have begged to differ... but that's neither here nor there) has nothign to do with the fact of what I pointed out - that a MMO that, according to you, doesn't require people to grind 12+ hours a day in their basement.... still manages to have people doing just that. Which, to me, begs the question... who's really to blame? The game, or the players?
Again... give people a game with 0 grind and 100% "end-game", and you will still have people playing it 12+ hours a day, grinding for whatever carrot that particular game is dangling in front of them.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Isn't acquiring gear, increasing your weapon skills, increasing your gathering/production skills, increasing your interpersonal skills (lol) a system of leveling in itself?
The numbers game of leveling is just a minute part of the general leveling system as a whole. Even if the game were level-less, you'd still have to train up your weapon skills, run basic dungeons/quests for poor quality gear, then do basic dungeons for better gear, then do harder (heroic) dungeons for slightly better gear, then do bottom tier raids, middle tier, upper tier, etc, until you have the level of gear that's required for endgame dungeons. That's not to mention... talent points, gathering gold, raiding consumables... in effect, all of these game mechanics are levels that must be attained before you can do endgame raiding/pvping.
No matter what, any effective MMORPG is going to need levels of some sort. Whether or not you call it a number (level 255) or a type of gear you must acquire (lolpurpz), the system of leveling is there.
How about you just give everyone endless consumables and the highest level of gear on any character, just from opening up an account? How fun would that game be? The answer would be zero fun, because there's nothing for me to aspire to become/accomplish. Why bother going to kill that dragon week after week... just for the sake of saying, "Oh ya I can kill that dragon every week"? I think not.
Whether you like it or not, leveling and progression systems are here to stay.
But curently its in 95% games kill 10000 zombies to lvl x. Kill 40000 zomebies to get lvl x+1. Its point to hold people to pay mroe subscritption money. This system is boring and dying. Why so hated wow is so succesfull? Becouse they do plenty expansions. You dont grind your character to max lvl in 5 years of 10hors/day. (AND I DONT PLAY WOW YOU IDIOTS IF SOMEONE CLEVER IDIOT IS GOING TO SAY THAT).
Why lvlisng is so bad. Lvl 1 cant go to lvl 60 player zone and compete. You need to wait several years. You need players of same lvl to not play singpleplayer grind online. How MMO beome singplayer grindfest i dont belive to this day. ultima online,wow, eve online and guild wars shows how it should be done.
"but i paly longer than you i have right to own you" no you are ****hole and dont deserve anything becoue you played longer. you have more experience, know more tactics, know more about world - this should make you win vs others. Not "becouse i grinded 10000000000000000000000x mroe than you to get my epic pink gay sword"
Isn't acquiring gear, increasing your weapon skills, increasing your gathering/production skills, increasing your interpersonal skills (lol) a system of leveling in itself?
The numbers game of leveling is just a minute part of the general leveling system as a whole. Even if the game were level-less, you'd still have to train up your weapon skills, run basic dungeons/quests for poor quality gear, then do basic dungeons for better gear, then do harder (heroic) dungeons for slightly better gear, then do bottom tier raids, middle tier, upper tier, etc, until you have the level of gear that's required for endgame dungeons. That's not to mention... talent points, gathering gold, raiding consumables... in effect, all of these game mechanics are levels that must be attained before you can do endgame raiding/pvping.
No matter what, any effective MMORPG is going to need levels of some sort. Whether or not you call it a number (level 255) or a type of gear you must acquire (lolpurpz), the system of leveling is there.
How about you just give everyone endless consumables and the highest level of gear on any character, just from opening up an account? How fun would that game be? The answer would be zero fun, because there's nothing for me to aspire to become/accomplish. Why bother going to kill that dragon week after week... just for the sake of saying, "Oh ya I can kill that dragon every week"? I think not.
Whether you like it or not, leveling and progression systems are here to stay.
Improving gear and levelling are both forms of progression but they are not the same thing:
- During levelling you do not have access to your class's full range of abilities.
- The type of content you go through while levelling is often different to end-game content.
- During levelling it is impractical to group with players of wildly different levels.
If you look at a game like WoW, I am fairly sure that most players spend the vast majority of their time at level cap. So if you don't enjoy the few days it takes to get to level cap it's reasonable to ask if that levelling process is even necessary.
Again... give people a game with 0 grind and 100% "end-game", and you will still have people playing it 12+ hours a day, grinding for whatever carrot that particular game is dangling in front of them.
Is it possible for an MMO to have people playing 12 hours a day because they are having fun? Not that Blizzard or BioWare WANT their players playing that much. Not when we are paying by the month, rather than by the hour. I now play MMOs to kill time, not to have fun - because usually they AREN'T much fun.
Grind is a replacement for fun gameplay. Chasing carrots does not appeal to me. The only other online games I played heavily (besides P2P MMOs) were NWN and Starcraft - both of which were F2P. They were not really about chasing carrots. Starcraft had ladder rankings, but they were about skill (and hacking) and not grinding.
Why is it that MMOs are so NOT FUN? Do people get addicted to grind more than they do to fun? I wonder. Do people play the same FPS game for a year or more, or switch every few months? If it's the latter - why do they switch?
Would WoW be more fun if all brackets had access to all of the BGs? If lowbies had a choice of more than 2 or 3 level-appropriate dungeons? It would for me, at least.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
A simplistic version of typical thempark players view is this :
"A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies"
And thats where it all went wrong, now all think its a race to end so real price is waiting.
When i first enter a mmo from start i enjoy game and slowly progress absorb this new wonderous fantasy world(i mostly play fantasy mmo's).
Many these day people only complain about to much grind and want it all fast as posible if not they get bored thats what wrong with majority of mmo community they can't enjoy a mmo gameworld anymore.
Result bots/macro/exploit/hacks/addons/gold-itemsellers and itemshops:(
Developers try give players i nice and diverse looking world full of task to do and what most do run through it if its a race not notice world around them blindly go to end game.
So what we get is more and more meaningless gameplay focus on giving as much as they can fluff fast mindless gameplay so everybody is in no time at endgame.
That a mmo was first to give players a huge nice fantasy world to explore do stuff in pace that could take many months has slowly removed over years becouse in this day and age we want instant rewards instant uberness bah:(
The sad part is... and I say this not at all in a facetious way...
People who think MMORPGs are "all about the end-game" and would do away with leveling to "get there faster", have absolutely *no* concept of what playing a true MMORPG was originally intended to be and used to be, back before WoW came along, bringing millions of people who had never heard of a MMO. Yet, so many of them suddenly became "experts" on the genre dictating what MMORPG is and isn't supposed to be. Well isn't that nice. This, from many people, some of whom would argue that Blizzard invented the MMO.
I saw someone call EQ1 a "crappy WoW clone" - that's just one of myriad examples of how freaking clueless some of these people are or at least were to the genre they'd just unknowingly become part of. I've spoken to or otherwise read posts by people who had no idea that WoW was a MMORPG; they didn't even know what a MMORPG was. They were just eager to play the next Warcraft game.
Let's face it, most MMOs coming out these days don't qualify for the RPG label. I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot. Many others to follow in its footsteps (or try to ride its coattails as it were) were pretty much the same.
But sure... let some developers give these people an all end-game "MMO" where all they're doing is raiding for leet gear, so they can burn through it all even faster and bitch even more about how there's "not enough content".
MMORPGs are based off of MUDs... which were based off of table-top RPGs which were typically about long, on-going adventures and campaigns... They were not a race to level cap where the players would "raid" over and over again for fancy loot. Yes, indeed, they were about "the journey", not "the destination".
Though... I guess for people who think in such blatantly one-dimensional terms, "phat lewt" is all that would matter to them.
In closing, all I'll say is that anyone who argues that MMORPGs should have no levels and allow you to skip straight to the end-game forfeits any credibility to claim they're not only interested in getting the "phat lewt" as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and with as little effort as possible.
All of THAT ^^^^^ QFT.
Oh.....and don't bother trying to have any kind of discussion with certain posters (name deleted...you probably could guess it anyway) if you intend to invoke the name of Almighty WoW in your post or response in ANY way. Seriously. I think most of us around here realize at this point, that you're going to just inspire a very long soliloquy that will contradict everything you said (and many things you probably thought but didn't say) with fanboi fanaticism that would make Hari Krishnas appear to have no dedication whatsoever, and a fair dose of Rob Pardo worship so shocking that it's almost like reading Penthouse Letters for Gaming Geeks.
To try to converse with someone who considers themselves an all-knowing authority on what is "best" in gaming and "best" for all gamers based on their own preferences and opinions is pretty much like trying to convince a 600 pound fat man that just because Kraft Macaroni and Cheese is delicious to HIM and more popular in sales than the various ingredients it takes to make a salad, that no....it ISN'T probably the most healthy thing for him to eat and that perhaps he might consider something a bit more nutritional and heart healthy considering his physical uhm....stature. Good luck with that.
Leveling is like an elogated tutorial. As you level up, you learn how the game works, and then get to the endgame. A lot of people consider that endgame is the real meat of a game. That's where you get into serious competitiion, big battles, storyline, and other goodies. So why not change the dynamic a bit. A dozen levels might be enough to allow someone to learn how to play a character, or some form of level-less system. The point is, after so many different MMOs, levelling has gotten pretty boring. So let's do away with it. It might help the persistant worlds, too. There's plenty of mid level areas that are never revisited once a character levels past them. Suddenly, there's no more need for these areas, and the whole world can be relevant at max level play, which would then be the majority of the game.
In Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, not online), levelling works just fine because there are always cutting edge challenges for you, scaled to your level. That's the benefit of a human DM. But MMOs don't have that. So let's try and put people at the max level that much faster, and stop spending time, effort, and money on the mid-game that is really nothing more than a time sink.
My case in point is Aion. Abyss PvP is really cool. The questing and leveling in that game makes me want to hurl myself out of a sixty third story window. Focus on the good parts, and just give the rest of it the axe.
Leveling is the entire point of RPGs. Progression of your character. You build up so that your character gains experience and abilities so that they can move on to harder and more rewarding content.
If you cut out the leveling and progression you might as well be playing Street Fighter, or Super Mario.
this is getting down to the meat of the issue. what you are saying is true. this IS the problem!
there IS no virtual world Street Fighter. yet.
there IS no virtual world Mario (maple story & all the clones don't count). yet.
there is no REAL virtual world FPS (PlanetSide and all the FPSRPG hybrid grindfests don't count). yet.
BUT, people who love RPG's have 300 or so mmoRPGs to choose from. they are well served. they even have all kinds of RPG hybrids that dabble in mixing other genres, and various levels of massively versus lobby/instance setups.
i personally HATE RPGs, and Ultima Underworld would have been my last RPG if my hunger for virtual worlds didn't force me into them. (and no you can't convince me not to read/post here just cuz the domain here has "RPG" in it).
*I*, and others like me are not being served........ AT ALL. (Valkyrie Sky and Darkfall come the closest, but they aren't close enough).
and i may be the only person ON THIS FORUM who wants these things. but there's tons more out there who won't ever COME here in the first place, and who have NEVER subbed an MMO, or only did so for a few months. some don't like RPGs. period. some don't like MMORPGs cuz they are not the right kind of RPGs or the right mix of RPG + __insert_other_genre__.
i'm an outlier for the unserved people. the rare one who has spent 11 years exploring virtual worlds DESPITE the fact that i hate the gameplay and virtually all the fundamental mechanics virtually all MMOs are built on currently.
after 11 years you are starting to find alot of people that come from the RPG loving traditional MMORPG camp who are making steps TOWARDS my direction. they are far from my standpoint, but a significant portion have started moving my way. healthy people can only stand endless repetition for only x many years before it starts to feel really hollow, and they
.......start looking for games that are FUN in the moment to moment gameplay. not all about being bribed into mindless activities to be doled out "rewards" at a calculatedly & increasingly diminishing pace.
or to put it into buzzwords some people might comprehend better, they
......start to look for intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards to their precious gaming time.
characters ALWAYS get left behind, and effectively thrown in the garbage. its just a matter of time. real life experiences (not points) and real life skill improvements stay with you for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. and are go with you from game to game.
no, i don't BY ANY MEANS think the majority of games will eventually come to where i am. FAR from it.
What I can't figure out from your posts is exactly what it is you are looking for? You listed 3 examples above of genres (FPS, Combat Games, and whatever the hell Mario is) saying there are no virutal worlds ( a problem I think MMORPG's actually have these days, but I digress) and I'm thinking to myself, why would anyone want them to be.
Outside of FPS, I don't think the general gaming population even wants games like this, and I think you really are an abberation in the market place. You claim to represent teaming masses of underserved players, and I say you pretty much represent yourself.
The few games that have been somewhat along these lines "don't count" in your words? Why don't they count? Because they are a bad idea that no one really wants.
Games are built for the mass market, and even traditional MMORPG's that I like are disappearing because the masses have a play style that vary's quite a bit from my prefernces. But at least I'm part of a decently large demographic so there are a few games that still cater to me, even if they are made by Indy Devs.
Heck, EVE actually has everything you say, a player is in the end game from the moment he starts out. Now its true, there's still a progression curve because that is one of the core elements that define the MMORPG genre, but there is no end game to actually reach, you are always in it. (and one reason why I play it)
That's not to say you can do everything when you start out, it takes time and patience to get to certain activities. After almost 3 years I still can't fly a Capital ship (I could have, but chose other paths) and it probably will be a focus in the 4th year.
But that doesn't matter, I didn't need to fly Capital ships to participate in almost everything the game has to offer, and that's what makes EVE such a great game.
But back to you. I understand you want something that you and "countless others" would enjoy, but I put forth that if such a market existed, someone would have built it and made a fortune by now. (in fact, face book games seem to be taking advantage of this nichen so perhaps they already are)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think they already have PVP combat games that do away with needless leveling, called first person shooters as I recall.
MMORPG's are all about character progression, its what defines the genre. Sandbox games don't suffer quite as severely as theme park games, but don't kid yourself, they have a progression system built into them that has to be climbed that lets the player enjoy more and more of the game.
This is the perfect response to this thread. This has to be, by far, the worst thread to have in an MMORPG forum. This would be the worst thing to ever happen to MMO's if it did. What about new players?! A new player can't just jump into WoW (easiest example) and be able to just start raiding, arenas, or whatever at endgame if they have no idea how to play their character. But alas... WoW has turned into this... everyone is expected to know everything there is to know about the game when they raid or do anything in "endgame" and if you don't know it, you're an idiot apparently. I know you said to cut it down and not take it completely away... but why?!
If you don't like the grind of MMO's... don't play them. It's as simple as that.. Take this thread and apply it to say.... Final Fantasy, or any single player RPG. There essentially wouldn't be a need for any of these games. If not for the leveling up process, all you'd need is a simple paragraph or two explaining who Sephiroth is and why you have to kill him, then they give you all the summons, magic, swords and characters you need to kill him, then off you go to the crater. Done. This thread is just absurd.
Leveling up and building your character from the ground up in a way you like to build them, exploring, and *GASP* story, are really what RPG's are about. (as someone already stated)
Good to see there are still people out there that actually use their brain before posting! Clearly something the OP does not.
I wish all these idiots would go back to their FPS shooters. PvP is nothing but FPS with fantasy characters. Get out of my genre already. You are the cancer that is slowly killing the classic RPG game.
KJ
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
Without character progression, through levelling or whatever mechanic, it would NOT be an MMORPG. Have fun with your FTPW (First or Third Person Whacker) or whatever the term may be.
Without character progression, through levelling or whatever mechanic, it would NOT be an MMORPG. Have fun with your FTPW (First or Third Person Whacker) or whatever the term may be.
MMORPG - Massively multiplayer online role-playing game . NOT MASSIVE SINGLEPLAYER GRIDING LEVELS AND GEARS ONLINE.
ROLEPLAYING -interacting with others and enjoying story.
I never understood why people grind to max level and then start over. I'd rather shoot myself in the head.
I never understood why people would run the same dungeon dozens of times to get a few pieces of gear which will be rendered obsolete by the drops in the next dungeon.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I never understood why people grind to max level and then start over. I'd rather shoot myself in the head.
I never understood why people would run the same dungeon dozens of times to get a few pieces of gear which will be rendered obsolete by the drops in the next dungeon.
Comments
Q: Why not just skip the leveling up part?
A: Because without the randomized operant conditioning people would cancel their subscriptions and we couldn't make any money. At least with leveling and gear progression we can gaurentee about X months of subscription per customer.
there are many women (and EVEN SOME men) who do exactly that.
cuz ..... not everyone likes what you like. seems hard for alot of people to understand that.
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Corpus Callosum
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only of a certain KIND of customer. the kind of customer that has around 300 OTHER choices out there.
they get EXTREMELY little of my money. and virtually NONE from all the other non-RPG gamers out there that would never dream of reading this forum (or playing these games).
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Corpus Callosum
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The sad part is... and I say this not at all in a facetious way...
People who think MMORPGs are "all about the end-game" and would do away with leveling to "get there faster", have absolutely *no* concept of what playing a true MMORPG was originally intended to be and used to be, back before WoW came along, bringing millions of people who had never heard of a MMO. Yet, so many of them suddenly became "experts" on the genre dictating what MMORPG is and isn't supposed to be. Well isn't that nice. This, from many people, some of whom would argue that Blizzard invented the MMO.
I saw someone call EQ1 a "crappy WoW clone" - that's just one of myriad examples of how freaking clueless some of these people are or at least were to the genre they'd just unknowingly become part of. I've spoken to or otherwise read posts by people who had no idea that WoW was a MMORPG; they didn't even know what a MMORPG was. They were just eager to play the next Warcraft game.
Let's face it, most MMOs coming out these days don't qualify for the RPG label. I stopped regarding WoW a MMORPG a long time ago. It's a MMO action game. Little more. Anything that made it a RPG has been either triviliazed or rendered completely moot. Many others to follow in its footsteps (or try to ride its coattails as it were) were pretty much the same.
But sure... let some developers give these people an all end-game "MMO" where all they're doing is raiding for leet gear, so they can burn through it all even faster and bitch even more about how there's "not enough content".
MMORPGs are based off of MUDs... which were based off of table-top RPGs which were typically about long, on-going adventures and campaigns... They were not a race to level cap where the players would "raid" over and over again for fancy loot. Yes, indeed, they were about "the journey", not "the destination".
Though... I guess for people who think in such blatantly one-dimensional terms, "phat lewt" is all that would matter to them.
In closing, all I'll say is that anyone who argues that MMORPGs should have no levels and allow you to skip straight to the end-game forfeits any credibility to claim they're not only interested in getting the "phat lewt" as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and with as little effort as possible.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Nah... they'd only bitch about having to go through worlds 1-1 to 8-3 and ask "why can't we just go straight to world 8-4 and cut out all that boring crap before it? Why should we have to actually play the game before we're able to beat it? That's so lame!"
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wonder if there is perhaps a market for a MMO fantasy themed action game (I guess not a FPS, 3PS), as that seems to be what a MMORPG without levels would be.
Levels can be a bit stiffling, but they are good for many things.
Firstly, immediate positive feedback. Leveling up feels good. Much better than say, skill X improving by 1%
Secondly, level provides a rough estimate of a characters ability, thus you can easily design areas in a large game. This also goes to monsters.
In real life, you know say that you shouldn't mess with a tiger or bear. But when you encounter a monster in game you have no idea - their graphics and size are rarely indicative of their combat ability. Or what they are like in the real world. (I've been ganked by packs of deer in Lotro, for instance. The aggro and toughness of the ones in Everdim is crazy). But you can see their level and know where you should try to fight or run.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
In my opinion...
Levels (skill based or level based) make it so not everyone gets to end game at the same time. Sometimes the leveling rate can even turn people off of a game, but I say that if I can play a game where it's hard to level and max out, I'll feel like I accomplished something more than if I maxed out a game where everyone can get to what I did with ease and little difficulty.
... the best mmo wouldn't be level based. It would be skill based where one gets stronger by doing. A quest shouldn't be what you get just so you can level faster, it should be there just to be a quest. Nowadays people would rather have quests give them a crap ton of experience, but that doesn't make as much sense to me as just killing things... even if it's just the same rat. Doing the quest shouldn't make one stronger, what must be done to complete that quest should, which is actually often just killing rats.
Hard levels add to personal achievement. Often that achievement might be geared only to one's personal patience and determination vs someone else's. The easier it is to level, the less accomplished you are when you are maxed level.
No levels take away that form of achievement, but increases game accessibility.
No levels also means that there is little to no progression since skill based games are actually a more clever and realistic and sensible way to hide the feeling of levels.
If you want no levels, go play an FPS or one of those social only mmos.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It simply means Pardo put a video game into mmo's, deleting all the things that were not fun.
The result in subscription numbers and the 5 billion dollars + this game made up till .... shows its result.
Nothing more nothing less.
If you can come up with the same end results: be my guest.
In the meantime, I play WOW even without "leveling" in the tradtional way. So it shows you can redefine even the leveling.
That's the secret of Pardo: the grind is kept to a bare minimum and ONLY if you like it.
I like leveling in PvP and advancing my stats and gear in" level less" PVE. It gives me a year of full leveling with a PvP challenge (and titles/prestige under way).
All possible in the game with "the fast leveling". Curious isn't it ? This thread being made redundant by its own mechanism.
...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Isn't acquiring gear, increasing your weapon skills, increasing your gathering/production skills, increasing your interpersonal skills (lol) a system of leveling in itself?
The numbers game of leveling is just a minute part of the general leveling system as a whole. Even if the game were level-less, you'd still have to train up your weapon skills, run basic dungeons/quests for poor quality gear, then do basic dungeons for better gear, then do harder (heroic) dungeons for slightly better gear, then do bottom tier raids, middle tier, upper tier, etc, until you have the level of gear that's required for endgame dungeons. That's not to mention... talent points, gathering gold, raiding consumables... in effect, all of these game mechanics are levels that must be attained before you can do endgame raiding/pvping.
No matter what, any effective MMORPG is going to need levels of some sort. Whether or not you call it a number (level 255) or a type of gear you must acquire (lolpurpz), the system of leveling is there.
How about you just give everyone endless consumables and the highest level of gear on any character, just from opening up an account? How fun would that game be? The answer would be zero fun, because there's nothing for me to aspire to become/accomplish. Why bother going to kill that dragon week after week... just for the sake of saying, "Oh ya I can kill that dragon every week"? I think not.
Whether you like it or not, leveling and progression systems are here to stay.
Leveling can be good.
But curently its in 95% games kill 10000 zombies to lvl x. Kill 40000 zomebies to get lvl x+1. Its point to hold people to pay mroe subscritption money. This system is boring and dying. Why so hated wow is so succesfull? Becouse they do plenty expansions. You dont grind your character to max lvl in 5 years of 10hors/day. (AND I DONT PLAY WOW YOU IDIOTS IF SOMEONE CLEVER IDIOT IS GOING TO SAY THAT).
Why lvlisng is so bad. Lvl 1 cant go to lvl 60 player zone and compete. You need to wait several years. You need players of same lvl to not play singpleplayer grind online. How MMO beome singplayer grindfest i dont belive to this day. ultima online,wow, eve online and guild wars shows how it should be done.
"but i paly longer than you i have right to own you" no you are ****hole and dont deserve anything becoue you played longer. you have more experience, know more tactics, know more about world - this should make you win vs others. Not "becouse i grinded 10000000000000000000000x mroe than you to get my epic pink gay sword"
Improving gear and levelling are both forms of progression but they are not the same thing:
- During levelling you do not have access to your class's full range of abilities.
- The type of content you go through while levelling is often different to end-game content.
- During levelling it is impractical to group with players of wildly different levels.
If you look at a game like WoW, I am fairly sure that most players spend the vast majority of their time at level cap. So if you don't enjoy the few days it takes to get to level cap it's reasonable to ask if that levelling process is even necessary.
Is it possible for an MMO to have people playing 12 hours a day because they are having fun? Not that Blizzard or BioWare WANT their players playing that much. Not when we are paying by the month, rather than by the hour. I now play MMOs to kill time, not to have fun - because usually they AREN'T much fun.
Grind is a replacement for fun gameplay. Chasing carrots does not appeal to me. The only other online games I played heavily (besides P2P MMOs) were NWN and Starcraft - both of which were F2P. They were not really about chasing carrots. Starcraft had ladder rankings, but they were about skill (and hacking) and not grinding.
Why is it that MMOs are so NOT FUN? Do people get addicted to grind more than they do to fun? I wonder. Do people play the same FPS game for a year or more, or switch every few months? If it's the latter - why do they switch?
Would WoW be more fun if all brackets had access to all of the BGs? If lowbies had a choice of more than 2 or 3 level-appropriate dungeons? It would for me, at least.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
All of THAT ^^^^^ QFT.
Oh.....and don't bother trying to have any kind of discussion with certain posters (name deleted...you probably could guess it anyway) if you intend to invoke the name of Almighty WoW in your post or response in ANY way. Seriously. I think most of us around here realize at this point, that you're going to just inspire a very long soliloquy that will contradict everything you said (and many things you probably thought but didn't say) with fanboi fanaticism that would make Hari Krishnas appear to have no dedication whatsoever, and a fair dose of Rob Pardo worship so shocking that it's almost like reading Penthouse Letters for Gaming Geeks.
To try to converse with someone who considers themselves an all-knowing authority on what is "best" in gaming and "best" for all gamers based on their own preferences and opinions is pretty much like trying to convince a 600 pound fat man that just because Kraft Macaroni and Cheese is delicious to HIM and more popular in sales than the various ingredients it takes to make a salad, that no....it ISN'T probably the most healthy thing for him to eat and that perhaps he might consider something a bit more nutritional and heart healthy considering his physical uhm....stature. Good luck with that.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
What I can't figure out from your posts is exactly what it is you are looking for? You listed 3 examples above of genres (FPS, Combat Games, and whatever the hell Mario is) saying there are no virutal worlds ( a problem I think MMORPG's actually have these days, but I digress) and I'm thinking to myself, why would anyone want them to be.
Outside of FPS, I don't think the general gaming population even wants games like this, and I think you really are an abberation in the market place. You claim to represent teaming masses of underserved players, and I say you pretty much represent yourself.
The few games that have been somewhat along these lines "don't count" in your words? Why don't they count? Because they are a bad idea that no one really wants.
Games are built for the mass market, and even traditional MMORPG's that I like are disappearing because the masses have a play style that vary's quite a bit from my prefernces. But at least I'm part of a decently large demographic so there are a few games that still cater to me, even if they are made by Indy Devs.
Heck, EVE actually has everything you say, a player is in the end game from the moment he starts out. Now its true, there's still a progression curve because that is one of the core elements that define the MMORPG genre, but there is no end game to actually reach, you are always in it. (and one reason why I play it)
That's not to say you can do everything when you start out, it takes time and patience to get to certain activities. After almost 3 years I still can't fly a Capital ship (I could have, but chose other paths) and it probably will be a focus in the 4th year.
But that doesn't matter, I didn't need to fly Capital ships to participate in almost everything the game has to offer, and that's what makes EVE such a great game.
But back to you. I understand you want something that you and "countless others" would enjoy, but I put forth that if such a market existed, someone would have built it and made a fortune by now. (in fact, face book games seem to be taking advantage of this nichen so perhaps they already are)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good to see there are still people out there that actually use their brain before posting! Clearly something the OP does not.
I wish all these idiots would go back to their FPS shooters. PvP is nothing but FPS with fantasy characters. Get out of my genre already. You are the cancer that is slowly killing the classic RPG game.
KJ
Without character progression, through levelling or whatever mechanic, it would NOT be an MMORPG. Have fun with your FTPW (First or Third Person Whacker) or whatever the term may be.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
MMORPG - Massively multiplayer online role-playing game . NOT MASSIVE SINGLEPLAYER GRIDING LEVELS AND GEARS ONLINE.
ROLEPLAYING -interacting with others and enjoying story.
I've always hated leveling and would love a system where I would be viable in end game right away.
There would still be minor progression through gear and stat increases, but nothing as drastic as full levels.
I never understood why people grind to max level and then start over. I'd rather shoot myself in the head.
The Official God FAQ
Just play a FPS-RPG...
They all have this kind of structure...
I myself enjoy a lot the leveling part..... But I also don't like starting over...
"You know, this place makes me wonder. Which would be worse, to live as a monster or to die as a good man?"
I never understood why people would run the same dungeon dozens of times to get a few pieces of gear which will be rendered obsolete by the drops in the next dungeon.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
To get an edge on others in PvP.
The Official God FAQ
To know that you can do it, that you could work well enough as a team to do it. Oh and have an advantage over others in PvP, certainly.
For some of us, it's the journey, not the end result, that is fun.