A lot of whining about casuals around here (not just this thread but in general). Well if not for that "casual" playerbase most of these games wouldn't be around. So pick your poison, hardcore gaming but limited (and most likely low cost production) game selection, or casual gameplay but with more selection and higher quality games.
MMO's were doing just fine before the casual.
I call bullshit.
edit: As for the others, you aren't even worth replying too except maybe to tell you, again, that you are in the wrong genre.
Diablo is that way. >>
And i call bullshit on your post. Also this genre is not your private property and MMORPG definition is not set in stone.
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
What's tedious about long travel times? You don't need to travel that far in Vanguard, because there is content for all levels spaced around everywhere. If you want to go across the world though "gasp" you may have to do some walking.
One of my fondest memories of Vanguard is trying to find my way out of Leth Nurae, the elf starter city (in a valley) and get to a halfway point to meet my buddy. There were lots of bad monsters in the way, and I did quite a bit of exploring (even got my name on the server to be the first to discover the Spiderbluffs) and eventually found out that the rivers had a CURRENT, and I let them carry me to the meeting point.
Well unfortunately, there aren't many newer MMORPG's that fit your criteria these days..MMO's have become to easy and shallow the last 5 years.. The mmorpg community has shifted to the fps/mmo hybrid type of gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals.. They want a quick fix rollercoaster ride as opposed to a epic sandbox experience..
Games like Everquest, EQ2, DAOC, and Vanguard are the only fantasy based MMORPG's left that fit your gaming preference...
The Genre has changed, unfortunately.. And with it the types of gamers as well..
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
A lot of whining about casuals around here (not just this thread but in general). Well if not for that "casual" playerbase most of these games wouldn't be around. So pick your poison, hardcore gaming but limited (and most likely low cost production) game selection, or casual gameplay but with more selection and higher quality games.
Uhh... MMORPGs were just as huge before the casual games showed up.
EverQuest had 600k subscribers, and DAoC had around 500k, and each and every MMO that came out was innovative and unique from the other.
Now you'd be lucky to find 2 MMORPGs above 200k subscription mark.
Now lets do some economics.
A game that took 30 devs and a million bucks to make gets 500k subscribers.
A game that took 150 devs and 80 million bucks to make, and gets 200k subscribers.
Which one is more successful? (hint, one is an oldschol MMO, the other is one of the most popular modern day MMORPGs)
The games back that were just as high quality, if not more so. There are complex and innovative features in these old MMOs that STILL haven't been put into the new super casual mini game MMOs.
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
And you're a sell out for owning a car and not being "hardcore" enough to walk everywhere uphill both ways in the snow like us vets used to do back in the day.
Hell even those bike riders and skate boarders are a bunch of carebears who can't stand long travel times. And horses? Still a bunch of casual soft-footers who like to bend over and take it from behind by the saddle manufacturers.
And for privatized entertainment experiences? What a joke, sounds like a bunch of commie bullsh!t to me. Back in my day we had to wait in line for HOURS just to get a chance to play with the one ball and one stick we had in the neighorhood, and even then most of the time some older bullies would come buy and beat you up and take your turn.
I mean, God forbid anyone would ever want to change from this perfect world. People had character and things were hard! Why? They were hard just for the sake of being hard! So the angelic corporations could milk as much money out of you as possible every month without actually providing you with anything new and interesting.
Hell if you couldn't make your own fun you shouldn't have even been born!
Well unfortunately, there aren't many newer MMORPG's that fit your criteria these days..MMO's have become to easy and shallow the last 5 years.. The mmorpg community has shifted to the fps/mmo hybrid type of gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals.. They want a quick fix rollercoaster ride as opposed to a epic sandbox experience..
Games like Everquest, EQ2, DAOC, and Vanguard are the only fantasy based MMORPG's left that fit your gaming preference...
The Genre has changed, unfortunately.. And with it the types of gamers as well..
EQ2, and DAoC are both riddled with instances and instant travel, (hence why people don't play DAoC anymore)
The casuals complain they do not have enough time in the day to accomplish anything in their games and fast travel makes it easier for them instead of having to waste 30 min riding on a mount. The casuals whine and the mmo gods listen, thats how it works.
So, presumably, you prefer to waste 30 minutes riding somewhere?
I sure as hell don't. It's boring as hell. Which is why my main in WoW was a mage.
Probably the best way to deal with the different wishes of MMO players is what WoW did - some classes can move around much faster than others.
It's not so much enjoying the act of traveling, it's enjoying that the game world doesn't feel irrelevant because vast distances can be crossed with little thought, effort, or any other consequence. On one side, yes it does suck to spend a lot of time traveling. On the other hand, instantly warping around the world cheapens the game world and makes much of the gamespace irrelevant.
A game like WoW is a bad example as well. WoW's quest system requires a lot of Point A to B to C movement, which gets really bothersome. This would be even worse over longer distances with no form of fast travel, I fully agree. There are past MMOs that were more sandboxy that required players to explore and spend more time traveling out into the wilds, but they were rewarded with a greater abundance of rarer creatures and/or resource spawns. This doesn't work so much in a themepark like MMO where every zone is given a place in progression, and nowhere is really 'wilderness'.
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
There is a huge difference between a game that encourages meaningful travel, and ones with a network of teleporters.
The old excuse of "if you don't like it don't use it" really just doesn't hold up, as it changes the feel and design of a game as a whole. Such as how there's no exploration in games with a detailed map. "JUst don't use it!"
"Hey, I found this awesome hidden dungeon the other day! Wonder whats in it..." "dude, everyone knows about that dungeon, its got a big purple star on it in the mini map, says its for levels 10-15."
Without instances, you actually can meet people where the action is & interact with them. When you camp with others, you'll talk to them, creating what we call a community in the process. Yeah, thats right! A community!
LOL .. when you camp with others, you bicker about who is in line before you, and who get to kill the boss next, and who can reserve what drops.
This kind of community .. i can do without. And what is so magical about a "community"? I have plenty of friends. When i want to play a game .. i want a GAME.
Without instances, you actually can meet people where the action is & interact with them. When you camp with others, you'll talk to them, creating what we call a community in the process. Yeah, thats right! A community!
LOL .. when you camp with others, you bicker about who is in line before you, and who get to kill the boss next, and who can reserve what drops.
This kind of community .. i can do without. And what is so magical about a "community"? I have plenty of friends. When i want to play a game .. i want a GAME.
Um... kid, you clearly never played old MMORPGs. I don't know of any game that happened in except maybe the really high end raid dungeons in EverQuest, and that is NOT the only oldschool MMORPG that ever existed. Please stop using your silly straw man arguments.
And if you don't want socializing or community, then play Diablo or some singleplayer RPG with a chat client running in the backround. You're kind of missing the point.
A lot of whining about casuals around here (not just this thread but in general). Well if not for that "casual" playerbase most of these games wouldn't be around. So pick your poison, hardcore gaming but limited (and most likely low cost production) game selection, or casual gameplay but with more selection and higher quality games.
MMO's were doing just fine before the casual.
I call bullshit.
edit: As for the others, you aren't even worth replying too except maybe to tell you, again, that you are in the wrong genre.
Diablo is that way. >>
And i call bullshit on your post. Also this genre is not your private property and MMORPG definition is not set in stone.
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
Once again its no ones property. Moreover, games are for fun nothing more. So i have no idea how you can dumb down on fun. Rest of your psot is just blah blah and sad attempt at trolling and trying to insult anyone who does not buy your definition of MMORPG.
A lot of whining about casuals around here (not just this thread but in general). Well if not for that "casual" playerbase most of these games wouldn't be around. So pick your poison, hardcore gaming but limited (and most likely low cost production) game selection, or casual gameplay but with more selection and higher quality games.
MMO's were doing just fine before the casual.
I call bullshit.
edit: As for the others, you aren't even worth replying too except maybe to tell you, again, that you are in the wrong genre.
Diablo is that way. >>
And i call bullshit on your post. Also this genre is not your private property and MMORPG definition is not set in stone.
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
Once again its no ones property. Moreover, games are for fun nothing more. So i have no idea how you can dumb down on fun. Rest of your psot is just blah blah and sad attempt at trolling and trying to insult anyone who does not buy your definition of MMORPG.
Same way you can dumb down a movie. Cheap action flick that looks pretty, and pulls in as many people as possible by having a shallow plot and nice flashes, and then is quickly forgotten after a quick cash grab.
Without instances, you actually can meet people where the action is & interact with them. When you camp with others, you'll talk to them, creating what we call a community in the process. Yeah, thats right! A community!
LOL .. when you camp with others, you bicker about who is in line before you, and who get to kill the boss next, and who can reserve what drops.
This kind of community .. i can do without. And what is so magical about a "community"? I have plenty of friends. When i want to play a game .. i want a GAME.
Um... kid, you clearly never played old MMORPGs. I don't know of any game that happened in except maybe the really high end raid dungeons in EverQuest, and that is NOT the only oldschool MMORPG that ever existed. Please stop using your silly straw man arguments.
And if you don't want socializing or community, then play Diablo or some singleplayer RPG with a chat client running in the backround. You're kind of missing the point.
In my extensive play time with UO back in the day of old MMORPGs I hung out with the same maybe 4 people all the times, and either that or the 15-20 people in my guild. Why? Everyone else was a target, an enemy, or potentially an enemy of opportunity.
You just couldn't trust anyone you didn't know or have ties to.
In the 6 years (on and off) I've played WoW, I've been in multiple guilds and carried a dozen friendships through that whole span and played happily with a community of hundreds of players between all the 40 then 25 person raids and such over 6 years and two expansions.
Back in the day they didn't have NEAR as many tools and resources and websites devoted to community and community building, and the guild systems in game were so rudamentary anyway.
You cannot measure community, nor can you compare apples to oranges.
Instancing can greatly INCREASE the opportunity for positive community interaction.
Well unfortunately, there aren't many newer MMORPG's that fit your criteria these days..MMO's have become to easy and shallow the last 5 years.. The mmorpg community has shifted to the fps/mmo hybrid type of gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals.. They want a quick fix rollercoaster ride as opposed to a epic sandbox experience..
Games like Everquest, EQ2, DAOC, and Vanguard are the only fantasy based MMORPG's left that fit your gaming preference...
The Genre has changed, unfortunately.. And with it the types of gamers as well..
EQ2, and DAoC are both riddled with instances and instant travel, (hence why people don't play DAoC anymore)
well people still play DAoC and the last I heard most left because of having to level weapons not because you can use public transportaion which is not instant.
I guess alot of you people have never rode a bus,a taxi,limousine service,bike taxi,rikshaw,stagecoach or an airplane huh?I guess all these things make life too easy and shallow.
A lot of whining about casuals around here (not just this thread but in general). Well if not for that "casual" playerbase most of these games wouldn't be around. So pick your poison, hardcore gaming but limited (and most likely low cost production) game selection, or casual gameplay but with more selection and higher quality games.
MMO's were doing just fine before the casual.
I call bullshit.
edit: As for the others, you aren't even worth replying too except maybe to tell you, again, that you are in the wrong genre.
Diablo is that way. >>
And i call bullshit on your post. Also this genre is not your private property and MMORPG definition is not set in stone.
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
Once again its no ones property. Moreover, games are for fun nothing more. So i have no idea how you can dumb down on fun. Rest of your psot is just blah blah and sad attempt at trolling and trying to insult anyone who does not buy your definition of MMORPG.
Same way you can dumb down a movie. Cheap action flick that looks pretty, and pulls in as many people as possible by having a shallow plot and nice flashes, and then is quickly forgotten after a quick cash grab.
But i am sure people have fun in those kind of movies.If every movie was serious and full of deep meaning how boring movies will be? there is a thing called variety in life. You might not agree with other peoples taste but it in no way makes you better or smarter then anyone else.
Also movies are supposed to offer escape from worries and tensions of daily life. Whats wrong with entering a theatre and switching off your brain for mindless fun? does it makes a person dumb in anyway? sorry but i strongly disagree with this kind of logic. I enjoy Godfather as much as Scary Movie.
I would rather play 1 mmo and have it take 6 months to level my character because in mmos it is all about the journey. Today mmos are so theme parked now its pretty much like an online rpg with a monthly fee now. Other than a persistent world there is no major distinction between the way mmos are designed now compared to what online rpgs were back in the day. The majority of mmos are either zoned or instanced and thw casuals cry they want to solo due to time restraints. MMOS should be the complete opposite of what multiplayer rpgs are and today it seems sadly anything with a monthly fee can be considered a mmo as long as thousands are playing it.
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
There is a huge difference between a game that encourages meaningful travel, and ones with a network of teleporters.
The old excuse of "if you don't like it don't use it" really just doesn't hold up, as it changes the feel and design of a game as a whole. Such as how there's no exploration in games with a detailed map. "JUst don't use it!"
"Hey, I found this awesome hidden dungeon the other day! Wonder whats in it..." "dude, everyone knows about that dungeon, its got a big purple star on it in the mini map, says its for levels 10-15."
the exscuse of "if I dont want it no one else can have it" is what doesnt hold up imho, if that is your idea of fun then so be it but to try to impose your idea of fun on others doesnt hold up, I play games to do just that play games my idea of fun is not having a second job if that was the case I would just get a second job
maybe games should give the option to turn off said travel forms that person who is playing it doesnt like and they can do what they find fun the way they like it without the temptation to use it and the option for those that dont mind it to keep it on but to try to impose your idea of fun on others is wrong
Without instances, you actually can meet people where the action is & interact with them. When you camp with others, you'll talk to them, creating what we call a community in the process. Yeah, thats right! A community!
LOL .. when you camp with others, you bicker about who is in line before you, and who get to kill the boss next, and who can reserve what drops.
This kind of community .. i can do without. And what is so magical about a "community"? I have plenty of friends. When i want to play a game .. i want a GAME.
Um... kid, you clearly never played old MMORPGs. I don't know of any game that happened in except maybe the really high end raid dungeons in EverQuest, and that is NOT the only oldschool MMORPG that ever existed. Please stop using your silly straw man arguments.
And if you don't want socializing or community, then play Diablo or some singleplayer RPG with a chat client running in the backround. You're kind of missing the point.
In my extensive play time with UO back in the day of old MMORPGs I hung out with the same maybe 4 people all the times, and either that or the 15-20 people in my guild. Why? Everyone else was a target, an enemy, or potentially an enemy of opportunity.
You just couldn't trust anyone you didn't know or have ties to.
In the 6 years (on and off) I've played WoW, I've been in multiple guilds and carried a dozen friendships through that whole span and played happily with a community of hundreds of players between all the 40 then 25 person raids and such over 6 years and two expansions.
Back in the day they didn't have NEAR as many tools and resources and websites devoted to community and community building, and the guild systems in game were so rudamentary anyway.
You cannot measure community, nor can you compare apples to oranges.
Instancing can greatly INCREASE the opportunity for positive community interaction.
In WoW, instances and the solo focus prevent you from meeting people. Joining a guild is almost mandatory if you want to actually talk to ANYONE.
All the things you mentioned, the raids, the guild tools, were there in much larger ways in DAoC.
DAoC alliance system, hundred man + raids, and the RvR brought everyone together.
There were several websites devoted to DAoC communities, and they're just as valid as WoW.
Point is, DAoC promoted and rewarded socializing, WoW does not. Instances do not.
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
There is a huge difference between a game that encourages meaningful travel, and ones with a network of teleporters.
The old excuse of "if you don't like it don't use it" really just doesn't hold up, as it changes the feel and design of a game as a whole. Such as how there's no exploration in games with a detailed map. "JUst don't use it!"
"Hey, I found this awesome hidden dungeon the other day! Wonder whats in it..." "dude, everyone knows about that dungeon, its got a big purple star on it in the mini map, says its for levels 10-15."
the exscuse of "if I dont want it no one else can have it" is what doesnt hold up imho, if that is your idea of fun then so be it but to try to impose your idea of fun on others doesnt hold up, I play games to do just that play games my idea of fun is not having a second job if that was the case I would just get a second job
maybe games should give the option to turn off said travel forms that person who is playing it doesnt like and they can do what they find fun the way they like it without the temptation to use it and the option for those that dont mind it to keep it on but to try to impose your idea of fun on others is wrong
I think you managed to entirely miss the point AND contradict yourself.
Well unfortunately, there aren't many newer MMORPG's that fit your criteria these days..MMO's have become to easy and shallow the last 5 years.. The mmorpg community has shifted to the fps/mmo hybrid type of gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals.. They want a quick fix rollercoaster ride as opposed to a epic sandbox experience..
Games like Everquest, EQ2, DAOC, and Vanguard are the only fantasy based MMORPG's left that fit your gaming preference...
The Genre has changed, unfortunately.. And with it the types of gamers as well..
EQ2, and DAoC are both riddled with instances and instant travel, (hence why people don't play DAoC anymore)
well people still play DAoC and the last I heard most left because of having to level weapons not because you can use public transportaion which is not instant.
I guess alot of you people have never rode a bus,a taxi,limousine service,bike taxi,rikshaw,stagecoach or an airplane huh?I guess all these things make life too easy and shallow.
DAoC has had teleport instant travel for YEARS. It exists in RvR too, which is a huge problem, because travel time was a big tactical part of the game. Now thats gone.
In WoW, instances and the solo focus prevent you from meeting people. Joining a guild is almost mandatory if you want to actually talk to ANYONE.
All the things you mentioned, the raids, the guild tools, were there in much larger ways in DAoC.
DAoC alliance system, hundred man + raids, and the RvR brought everyone together.
There were several websites devoted to DAoC communities, and they're just as valid as WoW.
Point is, DAoC promoted and rewarded socializing, WoW does not. Instances do not.
I can't even count how many times I've met people in dungeons/instances or raids that I end up talking to, playing with again, maybe joining up with for a pug or as an alternate in a guild run, or inviting them to join my guild or vice versa.
Your opinion is biased from your own experiences and beliefs.
That's fine, everyones is.
However this doesn't make you right and me wrong, nor does it make me right and your wrong. Both have merit. Both are opinion. Both are backed up by experiences and facts.
First and foremost, we play the MMO we play for fun, not to save time; if saving time was priority then the leveling should/could be skipped as well and max lvl chars be available preferrably (funnily enough, that's exactly what ANet did in GW with the option for max level PvP chars).
Now there's a split: traveling can provide a sense of exploration and adventure, a feel of vastness of the world (immersion) and boredom. Making instant traveling and such the norm will take away the boredom some people might experience, but also diminishes the sense of exploration and vastness of the world. So what is more entertaining? Well, it depends from person to person. Me, I liked that feeling of vastness of the world even if it could be sometimes annoying).
About dungeons or quests in general: unpredictability would make encounters a lot more interesting, not knowing what scenario you will have to deal with.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Same way you can dumb down a movie. Cheap action flick that looks pretty, and pulls in as many people as possible by having a shallow plot and nice flashes, and then is quickly forgotten after a quick cash grab.
But i am sure people have fun in those kind of movies.If every movie was serious and full of deep meaning how boring movies will be? there is a thing called variety in life. You might not agree with other peoples taste but it in no way makes you better or smarter then anyone else.
Also movies are supposed to offer escape from worries and tensions of daily life. Whats wrong with entering a theatre and switching off your brain for mindless fun? does it makes a person dumb in anyway? sorry but i strongly disagree with this kind of logic. I enjoy Godfather as much as Scary Movie.
I have "fun" when I play mini-golf.
I really have fun when I go to the lake and spend 2 weeks on my Chris Craft uninterrupted.
When I play an FPS I have fun. It's mostly mindless, but it can be loads of fun for short bursts of time.
When I play a deep complex MMORPG that takes up many months of my time, I am immersed as well as extremely entertained and mentally stimulated.
I like the cheap thrills of an FPS/RTS, but I expect more from a game that requires a monthly fee like an MMORPG. I want to invest more in a game like this.
I left WOW shortly after BG was introduced. It was plain to see what direction the game was headed so I bailed before I became too attached.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying some cheap thrills. I enjoy a fluff movie as much as the next person, but there comes a time when I'm looking for a more mature and mentally stimulating level of entertainment. I think what many people are trying to say is that we expect more out of this genre. There is already a plethora of other genres out there waiting to accomodate other tastes.
If you personally are satisfied with cheap thrills more power to ya! But please don't expect the rest of us to settle just because you have.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
There is a huge difference between a game that encourages meaningful travel, and ones with a network of teleporters.
The old excuse of "if you don't like it don't use it" really just doesn't hold up, as it changes the feel and design of a game as a whole. Such as how there's no exploration in games with a detailed map. "JUst don't use it!"
"Hey, I found this awesome hidden dungeon the other day! Wonder whats in it..." "dude, everyone knows about that dungeon, its got a big purple star on it in the mini map, says its for levels 10-15."
the exscuse of "if I dont want it no one else can have it" is what doesnt hold up imho, if that is your idea of fun then so be it but to try to impose your idea of fun on others doesnt hold up, I play games to do just that play games my idea of fun is not having a second job if that was the case I would just get a second job
maybe games should give the option to turn off said travel forms that person who is playing it doesnt like and they can do what they find fun the way they like it without the temptation to use it and the option for those that dont mind it to keep it on but to try to impose your idea of fun on others is wrong
I think you managed to entirely miss the point AND contradict yourself.
1.I think your the one that managed to miss my point especially considering that you replied to me 1st
2.How exactly did I contradict myself please enlighten me.All I have said was the developers should make their games so that people can play them the way they enjoy them, those on one side of the fence dont want travel options be they instant or taxi services let them be able to disable them and remove the temptation for that person to use them.Those on the other side of the fence that find traveling tedious and boring and just want to reach their destination to achieve the goal they set to accomplish in their time frame let them be able to keep it enabled.
Things that some consider fun others dont it is as simple as that and to try to railroad those that dont consider it enjoyable, or enjoyable at all times is not going to change their opinion it is just going to make them go do something else that they find fun.I play games to have fun that is why they are called games.
Comments
No, you're right. It's now the property of the casual. Like pretty much every other gaming genre by now. You people have dumb down almost the whole gaming scene to cater to your need. You are eating in the geedy suits palm & thats why the market is going your way. You're ok about getting less content for more money with every days that passes. a.k.a. You like to bend forward & take it from behind by the suits.
Thats the undeniable truth.
You're a godsend for the greedy corporate & they will milk you as long as you let them. Enjoy!
What's tedious about long travel times? You don't need to travel that far in Vanguard, because there is content for all levels spaced around everywhere. If you want to go across the world though "gasp" you may have to do some walking.
One of my fondest memories of Vanguard is trying to find my way out of Leth Nurae, the elf starter city (in a valley) and get to a halfway point to meet my buddy. There were lots of bad monsters in the way, and I did quite a bit of exploring (even got my name on the server to be the first to discover the Spiderbluffs) and eventually found out that the rivers had a CURRENT, and I let them carry me to the meeting point.
Not possible if I just teleported there.
To the OP:
Well unfortunately, there aren't many newer MMORPG's that fit your criteria these days..MMO's have become to easy and shallow the last 5 years.. The mmorpg community has shifted to the fps/mmo hybrid type of gamers who don't enjoy working hard to achieve their goals.. They want a quick fix rollercoaster ride as opposed to a epic sandbox experience..
Games like Everquest, EQ2, DAOC, and Vanguard are the only fantasy based MMORPG's left that fit your gaming preference...
The Genre has changed, unfortunately.. And with it the types of gamers as well..
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Uhh... MMORPGs were just as huge before the casual games showed up.
EverQuest had 600k subscribers, and DAoC had around 500k, and each and every MMO that came out was innovative and unique from the other.
Now you'd be lucky to find 2 MMORPGs above 200k subscription mark.
Now lets do some economics.
A game that took 30 devs and a million bucks to make gets 500k subscribers.
A game that took 150 devs and 80 million bucks to make, and gets 200k subscribers.
Which one is more successful? (hint, one is an oldschol MMO, the other is one of the most popular modern day MMORPGs)
The games back that were just as high quality, if not more so. There are complex and innovative features in these old MMOs that STILL haven't been put into the new super casual mini game MMOs.
OP as far as doing dungeons where you run into other players have you played Dark Age of Camelot?
As far as instant travel the solution for you is simple dont use it, dont talk to the npc that offers it, use self control and walk on by the npc,I have never been in a game that forced anyone to use it, ride your long journey or walk it however you prefer or is it that you also dont want other people to use it either.
And you're a sell out for owning a car and not being "hardcore" enough to walk everywhere uphill both ways in the snow like us vets used to do back in the day.
Hell even those bike riders and skate boarders are a bunch of carebears who can't stand long travel times. And horses? Still a bunch of casual soft-footers who like to bend over and take it from behind by the saddle manufacturers.
And for privatized entertainment experiences? What a joke, sounds like a bunch of commie bullsh!t to me. Back in my day we had to wait in line for HOURS just to get a chance to play with the one ball and one stick we had in the neighorhood, and even then most of the time some older bullies would come buy and beat you up and take your turn.
I mean, God forbid anyone would ever want to change from this perfect world. People had character and things were hard! Why? They were hard just for the sake of being hard! So the angelic corporations could milk as much money out of you as possible every month without actually providing you with anything new and interesting.
Hell if you couldn't make your own fun you shouldn't have even been born!
*snicker*
EQ2, and DAoC are both riddled with instances and instant travel, (hence why people don't play DAoC anymore)
It's not so much enjoying the act of traveling, it's enjoying that the game world doesn't feel irrelevant because vast distances can be crossed with little thought, effort, or any other consequence. On one side, yes it does suck to spend a lot of time traveling. On the other hand, instantly warping around the world cheapens the game world and makes much of the gamespace irrelevant.
A game like WoW is a bad example as well. WoW's quest system requires a lot of Point A to B to C movement, which gets really bothersome. This would be even worse over longer distances with no form of fast travel, I fully agree. There are past MMOs that were more sandboxy that required players to explore and spend more time traveling out into the wilds, but they were rewarded with a greater abundance of rarer creatures and/or resource spawns. This doesn't work so much in a themepark like MMO where every zone is given a place in progression, and nowhere is really 'wilderness'.
There is a huge difference between a game that encourages meaningful travel, and ones with a network of teleporters.
The old excuse of "if you don't like it don't use it" really just doesn't hold up, as it changes the feel and design of a game as a whole. Such as how there's no exploration in games with a detailed map. "JUst don't use it!"
"Hey, I found this awesome hidden dungeon the other day! Wonder whats in it..." "dude, everyone knows about that dungeon, its got a big purple star on it in the mini map, says its for levels 10-15."
Without instances, you actually can meet people where the action is & interact with them. When you camp with others, you'll talk to them, creating what we call a community in the process. Yeah, thats right! A community!
LOL .. when you camp with others, you bicker about who is in line before you, and who get to kill the boss next, and who can reserve what drops.
This kind of community .. i can do without. And what is so magical about a "community"? I have plenty of friends. When i want to play a game .. i want a GAME.
Um... kid, you clearly never played old MMORPGs. I don't know of any game that happened in except maybe the really high end raid dungeons in EverQuest, and that is NOT the only oldschool MMORPG that ever existed. Please stop using your silly straw man arguments.
And if you don't want socializing or community, then play Diablo or some singleplayer RPG with a chat client running in the backround. You're kind of missing the point.
Once again its no ones property. Moreover, games are for fun nothing more. So i have no idea how you can dumb down on fun. Rest of your psot is just blah blah and sad attempt at trolling and trying to insult anyone who does not buy your definition of MMORPG.
Same way you can dumb down a movie. Cheap action flick that looks pretty, and pulls in as many people as possible by having a shallow plot and nice flashes, and then is quickly forgotten after a quick cash grab.
In my extensive play time with UO back in the day of old MMORPGs I hung out with the same maybe 4 people all the times, and either that or the 15-20 people in my guild. Why? Everyone else was a target, an enemy, or potentially an enemy of opportunity.
You just couldn't trust anyone you didn't know or have ties to.
In the 6 years (on and off) I've played WoW, I've been in multiple guilds and carried a dozen friendships through that whole span and played happily with a community of hundreds of players between all the 40 then 25 person raids and such over 6 years and two expansions.
Back in the day they didn't have NEAR as many tools and resources and websites devoted to community and community building, and the guild systems in game were so rudamentary anyway.
You cannot measure community, nor can you compare apples to oranges.
Instancing can greatly INCREASE the opportunity for positive community interaction.
well people still play DAoC and the last I heard most left because of having to level weapons not because you can use public transportaion which is not instant.
I guess alot of you people have never rode a bus,a taxi,limousine service,bike taxi,rikshaw,stagecoach or an airplane huh?I guess all these things make life too easy and shallow.
But i am sure people have fun in those kind of movies.If every movie was serious and full of deep meaning how boring movies will be? there is a thing called variety in life. You might not agree with other peoples taste but it in no way makes you better or smarter then anyone else.
Also movies are supposed to offer escape from worries and tensions of daily life. Whats wrong with entering a theatre and switching off your brain for mindless fun? does it makes a person dumb in anyway? sorry but i strongly disagree with this kind of logic. I enjoy Godfather as much as Scary Movie.
I would rather play 1 mmo and have it take 6 months to level my character because in mmos it is all about the journey. Today mmos are so theme parked now its pretty much like an online rpg with a monthly fee now. Other than a persistent world there is no major distinction between the way mmos are designed now compared to what online rpgs were back in the day. The majority of mmos are either zoned or instanced and thw casuals cry they want to solo due to time restraints. MMOS should be the complete opposite of what multiplayer rpgs are and today it seems sadly anything with a monthly fee can be considered a mmo as long as thousands are playing it.
the exscuse of "if I dont want it no one else can have it" is what doesnt hold up imho, if that is your idea of fun then so be it but to try to impose your idea of fun on others doesnt hold up, I play games to do just that play games my idea of fun is not having a second job if that was the case I would just get a second job
maybe games should give the option to turn off said travel forms that person who is playing it doesnt like and they can do what they find fun the way they like it without the temptation to use it and the option for those that dont mind it to keep it on but to try to impose your idea of fun on others is wrong
In WoW, instances and the solo focus prevent you from meeting people. Joining a guild is almost mandatory if you want to actually talk to ANYONE.
All the things you mentioned, the raids, the guild tools, were there in much larger ways in DAoC.
DAoC alliance system, hundred man + raids, and the RvR brought everyone together.
There were several websites devoted to DAoC communities, and they're just as valid as WoW.
Point is, DAoC promoted and rewarded socializing, WoW does not. Instances do not.
I think you managed to entirely miss the point AND contradict yourself.
DAoC has had teleport instant travel for YEARS. It exists in RvR too, which is a huge problem, because travel time was a big tactical part of the game. Now thats gone.
and lol@ life = game comparison
I can't even count how many times I've met people in dungeons/instances or raids that I end up talking to, playing with again, maybe joining up with for a pug or as an alternate in a guild run, or inviting them to join my guild or vice versa.
Your opinion is biased from your own experiences and beliefs.
That's fine, everyones is.
However this doesn't make you right and me wrong, nor does it make me right and your wrong. Both have merit. Both are opinion. Both are backed up by experiences and facts.
So... now what?
I agree for a large part with the OP.
First and foremost, we play the MMO we play for fun, not to save time; if saving time was priority then the leveling should/could be skipped as well and max lvl chars be available preferrably (funnily enough, that's exactly what ANet did in GW with the option for max level PvP chars).
Now there's a split: traveling can provide a sense of exploration and adventure, a feel of vastness of the world (immersion) and boredom. Making instant traveling and such the norm will take away the boredom some people might experience, but also diminishes the sense of exploration and vastness of the world. So what is more entertaining? Well, it depends from person to person. Me, I liked that feeling of vastness of the world even if it could be sometimes annoying).
About dungeons or quests in general: unpredictability would make encounters a lot more interesting, not knowing what scenario you will have to deal with.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have "fun" when I play mini-golf.
I really have fun when I go to the lake and spend 2 weeks on my Chris Craft uninterrupted.
When I play an FPS I have fun. It's mostly mindless, but it can be loads of fun for short bursts of time.
When I play a deep complex MMORPG that takes up many months of my time, I am immersed as well as extremely entertained and mentally stimulated.
I like the cheap thrills of an FPS/RTS, but I expect more from a game that requires a monthly fee like an MMORPG. I want to invest more in a game like this.
I left WOW shortly after BG was introduced. It was plain to see what direction the game was headed so I bailed before I became too attached.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying some cheap thrills. I enjoy a fluff movie as much as the next person, but there comes a time when I'm looking for a more mature and mentally stimulating level of entertainment. I think what many people are trying to say is that we expect more out of this genre. There is already a plethora of other genres out there waiting to accomodate other tastes.
If you personally are satisfied with cheap thrills more power to ya! But please don't expect the rest of us to settle just because you have.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
1.I think your the one that managed to miss my point especially considering that you replied to me 1st
2.How exactly did I contradict myself please enlighten me.All I have said was the developers should make their games so that people can play them the way they enjoy them, those on one side of the fence dont want travel options be they instant or taxi services let them be able to disable them and remove the temptation for that person to use them.Those on the other side of the fence that find traveling tedious and boring and just want to reach their destination to achieve the goal they set to accomplish in their time frame let them be able to keep it enabled.
Things that some consider fun others dont it is as simple as that and to try to railroad those that dont consider it enjoyable, or enjoyable at all times is not going to change their opinion it is just going to make them go do something else that they find fun.I play games to have fun that is why they are called games.