why play a mmo if you dont have time to play a mmo?i dont get it!why be obstinate about it just play a mo gees
it makes me laugh when i see post like this:i can play a dungeon run but we got to be done in 10 minute!you cannot play
a mmo then go play a mo instead gees.and no mo doesnt stop to what it used to be it is a lot broader then it used to be
basicly all mo have low amount of player on one map ,so guild wars is considered a mo lot of other also!
but going in a mmo when in fact your time frame can only play a mo, isnt nice for other hopping for a mmo experience!
Yep. It's like watching golf turned into putt putt. Omg, 530 yards to the pin? Par 5? 18 holes? That's no fun. I just want to tap the ball through the clown's nose and go get my corn dog. Those golfers, they have no life.
they might not have life like you say but its their fix!who are you to judge their choice?some like beer other women ,other money other big rig!each his own !just because you dont like massive doesnt mean other player dont like it
ask a silkroad player that is lvl 109 if he felt he had no life i bet along the journey he had ton of silly moment and lot of fun
other time he probably had to grind because he needed to in order to get the item that triggered the even he needed
but thats what massive is,if you dont like massive no biggy play a multiplayer game instead you ll have the fun you want to have and the massive lover will have the epic or hell moment fix he love!
I think you missed his analogy, the puttputt golfers should stick with their clown holes and leave the 18 holes as they are. If you dont have the time to travel and explore on the way or w/e go play a different game. MMO's are not for you.
The following statement is false The previous statement is true
Hidden content dosen't work very well these days. The day it gets found it gets posted on a dozen fan sites, wikis and guides and everyone who reads them knows about it. Then when some other player has no idea where it is they yell and scream at him/her to "l2p idiot noob".
when info is readily avail on fan sites and wiki, ill be the first one to shout with scorn, l2p friggin nub, bcz nub is not limited to the pixelated walls of our game of choice. but rather an epidemic of 'tell me/give me" NAO that turns me the hell off from even talking to nubs.
but to address one of the ideas about hidden caves,dungeon crawls to reward the travelller....well random generated dungeons that can appear anywhere...or no where along a stretch of road, or side of mountain would be a great idea. that way no wiki can give step by step instructions and the gameplay remains fresh. could be a lvl 100 uber boss in there, could be a cpl orcs having beers. w/e make it random and give us back some fun/
there is no fun in mmo's anymore where there isnt a little discovery and personal initiative. going to mob area alpha to grind mobs looking for 50 drops of a special piece of crap so that i can sell at market, so that i can buy meaningless armor and reapeat the process is not good gaming. if you instance any of those steps it becomes less fun then the fantastic experience i described above and i might as well play a single player game.
fast travel however, i believe must stay. at least between realms or however the game splits its maps. in fantasy games it would just make sense that a wizard set up shop in a nice size town to zap travelers anywhere they want to go. in scifi, i would suppose that vehicles and mass transit exist and in steam punk, the old and overused hot air balloon waiting for you to buy a ticket. allow for fast travel, reward those who ride down the path..... just a thought.
For me, this whole issue of casual vs. hardcore relates to one basic principal. It's difficult for me to put into words, but I'll do my best.
In life, we have moments that cause negative impacts upon ourselves or our environments. These can often equate to feelings to describe our mood in relation to these events, such as "depression", "anger", or "frustration". There are also moments in which we experience positive impacts upon ourselves or our environments, which can be equated to such emotions as "happiness", "optimism", or "love". The reason I mention this in detail is to make certain that all readers, at this point, understand the basic for the following theory I'm going to present, which for some of you may seem extremely obvious.
When people want to relax, or more specifically play a video game, as player's we are looking to escape. This isn't just true for video games, but for all forms of entertainment media, such as literature or television. As a means of relaxation, they offer escapism from our daily lives, in which we cannot control the experiences which effect us. Escapism can further relate to many other goals that players have with their free time, such as success, an alternative life, emotional growth (in regards to some communities), or "fun". Again, the reason I say this is to establish a basic understanding of the terms.
Now, break away from the foundation I've just spent two paragraphs explaining. Imagine a world in which we do not experience negative emotion, in any situation whatsoever. Some of you are probably saying, "Damn, that'd be pretty rad. I could be happy all the time and not worry about my surroundings, or how my day is going to end. I know shit's going to be awesome." Then again, there are probably others saying to themselves, "Why would I want that? If I were to be happy all the time, from arrival to departure of this world, how would I ever know how great it is to feel joy, or what it even truly means?" This is exactly what we're experiencing in the MMO world.
We have a group of players on one side claiming that their games, which started as social expirements more than entertainment, should be full of instant gratification, always delivering something in which to aptly spend their time escaping to a hobby that should be providing them their one true ambition: having fun. On the other side, we've a group of players who believe we need to remove this instant gratification, to delay the moments of fun as so they're unexpected and to better pace the longevity of a title, as so to provide a scale in which to measure this happiness experienced with their session. Again, the reason behind this thinking is that without the times that were less than perfect, we'd have no way of knowing or understanding what it really mean to enjoy ourselves.
As a sandbox player, I can say that I'd rather have dull periods in my game, so that when something truly cool happens, it feels like the greatest experience of gaming history. Ever. I'm willing to wait for those moments, because the pay-off is so grand in comparison to what could be found in a casual grinder or themepark MMO, that dishes out much smaller pay-off's at a much more frequent scale. It's really just a matter of preference, and there's absolutely no reason to take this whole matter so seriously.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
For me, this whole issue of casual vs. hardcore relates to one basic principal. It's difficult for me to put into words, but I'll do my best.
In life, we have moments that cause negative impacts upon ourselves or our environments. These can often equate to feelings to describe our mood in relation to these events, such as "depression", "anger", or "frustration". There are also moments in which we experience positive impacts upon ourselves or our environments, which can be equated to such emotions as "happiness", "optimism", or "love". The reason I mention this in detail is to make certain that all readers, at this point, understand the basic for the following theory I'm going to present, which for some of you may seem extremely obvious.
When people want to relax, or more specifically play a video game, as player's we are looking to escape. This isn't just true for video games, but for all forms of entertainment media, such as literature or television. As a means of relaxation, they offer escapism from our daily lives, in which we cannot control the experiences which effect us. Escapism can further relate to many other goals that players have with their free time, such as success, an alternative life, emotional growth (in regards to some communities), or "fun". Again, the reason I say this is to establish a basic understanding of the terms.
Now, break away from the foundation I've just spent two paragraphs explaining. Imagine a world in which we do not experience negative emotion, in any situation whatsoever. Some of you are probably saying, "Damn, that'd be pretty rad. I could be happy all the time and not worry about my surroundings, or how my day is going to end. I know shit's going to be awesome." Then again, there are probably others saying to themselves, "Why would I want that? If I were to be happy all the time, from arrival to departure of this world, how would I ever know how great it is to feel joy, or what it even truly means?" This is exactly what we're experiencing in the MMO world.
We have a group of players on one side claiming that their games, which started as social expirements more than entertainment, should be full of instant gratification, always delivering something in which to aptly spend their time escaping to a hobby that should be providing them their one true ambition: having fun. On the other side, we've a group of players who believe we need to remove this instant gratification, to delay the moments of fun as so they're unexpected and to better pace the longevity of a title, as so to provide a scale in which to measure this happiness experienced with their session. Again, the reason behind this thinking is that without the times that were less than perfect, we'd have no way of knowing or understanding what it really mean to enjoy ourselves.
As a sandbox player, I can say that I'd rather have dull periods in my game, so that when something truly cool happens, it feels like the greatest experience of gaming history. Ever. I'm willing to wait for those moments, because the pay-off is so grand in comparison to what could be found in a casual grinder or themepark MMO, that dishes out much smaller pay-off's at a much more frequent scale. It's really just a matter of preference, and there's absolutely no reason to take this whole matter so seriously.
By your standards, anyone who watches Sportscenter for the quick recap of the day's games, and not all of the games in full, are lazy and doesn't like sports..
There is a difference between watching and playing. Theye is a difference between liking something and playing. There is a difference between checking in on how something went and playing. So your point, if you have one, escapes me.
My apologies for not explaining myself properly. Humans like convenience and we always try to reduce downtime. I real life we definately have a preference for fast travel - cars, planes - and "instancing" - never been so few people with so much space in each home. Its a natural development of a social structure.
This is an example of one side of the debate. To illustrate how different our opinions are, I'll state that I would rather pay for dull moments, because I feel it adds more bang to my proverbial buck.
You don't have to. You can play any number of thrill-by-the-minute, quest-grinder themeparks available on the market, and you'll be playing with a larger majority of the MMO population. Honestly, if someone doesn't get the sandbox mentality, it's probably for the best that they play other games, as so the two separate sub-genre's aren't worried about credibility, or changing based upon another variable market. Homogonization is ruining the genre for everyone, not just the hardcore or sandboxers.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Once upon a time, in the real world, I lived a 12 hour drive away from my family. I made that trip in one day there and one day back for the holidays. I did that 5 different times.
Guess what? I opted for faster travel and took a plane instead because it was to arduous and half of my "vacation" was spent driving and totally wired.
How many times must I travel the same road over and over? Anyone who believes doing something like that is going to be perpetually fun is simply not thinking in long term manner. And as most of us should know MMO's are about a long term enjoyment.
Eve gets aroudn this by not forcing you to travel the same road or any road. Other games have tried to have you use the same road over and over and of course eventually fail.
Because in the end almost everyone gets to the same point I did and just says "fuck this its not worth it". Boring, time, consuming and there are better options. I have done this 5 times I don't need to do it anymore and all value is gone.
Sorry but I don't agree. In EQ did people take ports, or did they wait on boats? In Asheron's Call did people run or use the portals?
Not sure where people get the idea that instant traveling is an idea brought by newer games, but its not. EQ had SOW and ports. AC people could buff themselves to run faster and use portals. I thought POK was in excellent idea in EQ. Not only did it serve as a meeting grounds, but it made traveling faster.
Slow travel times are a poor time sink. Its something I can't stand, and will quit a game over. I don't want my travel time to outweigh my play time, and in some games I've tried this holds true.
It was not safe. Even low level zones had mobs who may be present that posed a threat. You couldn't just stroll through a zone and have monsters ignore you. Getting somewhere alive was an adventure.
It was also unpredictable. But in the day, there were lots of mobs people needed for things that may or may not be "up" at any given time. So part of travel was looking for them, in case you were lucky enough to encounter a rare one. If you did, you rallied your friends and guildmates to come help bring it down.
Lots of people travelled together for safety. You met people along the way, and talked to them. Because in those days we liked meeting new people. And we liked talking to them.
Along the way there were things to stop and do. You may see some newer players and pause to help them.
The world felt like a world, not simply a series of points to be popped in and out of. The game felt like an adventure.
This is ALL your opinion.
These kinds of things still happen everyday, even in the great evil of MMORPG.com - World of Warcraft.
I'm sorry? Not quite sure what kind response your drawn out nostalgic diatribe was fishing for?
Please tell me you were being completely sarcastic there right?
what is the difference between behing 200 time in brd or 200 time anywhere in the world of warcraft if the reward are there as they are in an instance i dont the difference but runnig 6 time in a row deadmine because i dont need to move would be boring for me!
yep it speeded up eq1 player to the door to go to wow.then wow did the same and now player are all over different type of game till the game they are playing do a magic portal buttonthat can port them anywhere anytime in the game for 1 $ per port!
Here's a nice thought, just taken from Murphy's RotGS review part II, you can choose to pay for instant-travel, or to travel cheap and be subjected to a random encounter:
' Basically these random encounters serve as small instances for you or your party. There are a handful of different situations you could find yourself in, and each one is estimated to take 15-20 minutes at max to complete. You can avoid the encounters completely by paying for your trip, but should you choose to be cheap you can bet your tanned butt the caravan will want you to pay your fees in other ways and you'll be forced to join the Caravan Guard.
One such encounter is a stop at a small island where you'll be tasked with raiding a pirate encampment in order to retrieve the voyage's food rations from said pirates. It seems the ship has a small infestation of rats that means you need to go out and get more food by any means necessary. Another example has you firing ballistae at a massive kraken that's attacking the ship. They're short but brilliantly crafted little encounters that make the trip to Khitai seem a lot weightier than just zoning from one place to the other'
People who want to save time, can still do so by paying the fee, and those who want to get the sensation that you're actually travelling in a large world, will be caravan guard. Sure gonna try it
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am not a regular poster and I do not express myself very well but: I am so sick of instances and instant travels. I play MMO's for the adventure and for the community and atmosphere. I want my party to actually enter a dungeon/castle and meet people along the way who dare to venture alone or another band of travelers.
I dont care if we meet and end up in conflict or become friends and venture futher depth's to conqueror the unknown that lies within!
I want random dungeons (not generated) that are hidden well, so explorer's can come across them. Is it really hard to program a cave inside a cliff that isn't easily seen on the road? What is the whole point in this land mass if there only DUNGEON A, B, and C and they have a big advertizement saying "COME HERE".
Why can't we have many and many hidden depth's located around the world? I just want the simple things (lol even though they might be complicated)
And this Instant traveling BS?
Do away with it (That is my personal opinion, many people like IT and if that is there cup of tea: go ahead and do your thing), I rather travel around on foot, or horse with travelers exploring that ancient ruin's and maybe traveling along the beach to find a shipwreck that was not there yesterday. Let the world revolve. Have a schedule on key events that happen monthly or daily? I stated it before "what is the whole point in this land mass" If I am going to skip it by instant tele'ing to the city and Instant Tele'ing back to the nearest dungeons and not explore.
This may be a rant but blah blah blah!
Nothing keepin you from travelling by foot to wherever you want to go in most games. Granted you might have to get a flying mount or a boat in some, but having the option there is not a bad thing. And as for the first part, every dungeon in every mmo is hidden away when you first start playing. It's when you are in any one of these games for 3+ months that you are going to go and do the same dungeon over and over and over again. Randomization would be nice, but there would be some limit to that randomization and, not sure how long you have been playing these things, but the fact is instances were implemented because of things that people did in the past. For example in Ultima Online there were a number of caves that were where the best ore nodes were. These cave areas also became the favorite haunts of very large very well organized guilds that trounced everyone that came in. Its nice to think that a group of crafters can come in or hire a group of adventurers to come and protect them but it does not work out in reality. Think of the original EQ where you had to kill a specific mob for a particular quest line. Well that mob was 9 out of 10 times on a guild's farm rotation and you had no chance of getting your quest accomplished unless they felt overly generous or if you logged in at 3:37 am and HOPED it wasn't being farmed. Instances came about because of these and other factors. With the mentality of gamers today they are even more necessary than they were back in the "golden" age lol.
I myself, according to hte bartle test, am an Explorer first and foremost. You will find, I think, that the best way to get your "explorer" fix is to be one of the first in any new game and bust ass to get to those locations first. Otherwise you aren't going to really get to "explore".
This is an example of one side of the debate. To illustrate how different our opinions are, I'll state that I would rather pay for dull moments, because I feel it adds more bang to my proverbial buck.
You don't have to. You can play any number of thrill-by-the-minute, quest-grinder themeparks available on the market, and you'll be playing with a larger majority of the MMO population. Honestly, if someone doesn't get the sandbox mentality, it's probably for the best that they play other games, as so the two separate sub-genre's aren't worried about credibility, or changing based upon another variable market. Homogonization is ruining the genre for everyone, not just the hardcore or sandboxers.
Then I have a clue for you. Pay me some money and i will send you a blank picture to stare at. I will GUARANTEE that it is DULL.
And if you want to chat in the process, i would recommend MSN. It is free but you can pay me, if you like to pay for chatting while staring at a dull screen.
why play a mmo if you dont have time to play a mmo?i dont get it!why be obstinate about it just play a mo gees
it makes me laugh when i see post like this:i can play a dungeon run but we got to be done in 10 minute!you cannot play
a mmo then go play a mo instead gees.and no mo doesnt stop to what it used to be it is a lot broader then it used to be
basicly all mo have low amount of player on one map ,so guild wars is considered a mo lot of other also!
but going in a mmo when in fact your time frame can only play a mo, isnt nice for other hopping for a mmo experience!
Because I *can* and it is fun. Because the developers are sensitive to people's time.
I did dungeon runs in 10 min all the time. Don't like it .. don't play. No one is forcing you to. And no one is taking out 10 min dungeon just because it hurts your sensitivity.
Travel used to be exciting. It was not safe. Even low level zones had mobs who may be present that posed a threat. You couldn't just stroll through a zone and have monsters ignore you. Getting somewhere alive was an adventure. And to us, adventure was fun, not just gimmie my epic now gimmie another one.
Not if you have to go through the same zone again and again. It will be ANNOYING instead of fun.
In fact, that is why we don't do that anymore.
And if you want an adventure, go into a dungeon. There is no point doing it when all you want is goind from point A to B.
you know what he meant gees!dont nitpick!
That is not nitpik. Tell me a game that you never have to go back to the same zone. That is just plain impossible and i do NOT want to fight my way through everytime i want to go from city A to B.
Do you know that WOW take OUT open war PvP because people are complaining about that is blocking people who want to travel? There is no reason to inconvenient people who just want to get to a dungeon & have fun.
OP: If you don't care what other people do, then stop complaining. You can walk. There is no one that has you tied up with a gun to your head if you decide to teleport or whatever else you define as instant travel. If you decide to walk when all your friends drive, they can either wait for you to wise up, wait for you while you travel there, or, most likely, leave you behind. But it's your choice. Hopefully you find a group of friends that all walk with you.
I agree with your first point, though. It'd be cool if there were many hidden locations throughout the world. WAR promised to do this, and there are a few cool spots to find, but the zones were too confined overall for there to be much exploration. I've heard Vanguard does this very well, but I haven't played it so I can't testify first-hand.
Travel used to be exciting. It was not safe. Even low level zones had mobs who may be present that posed a threat. You couldn't just stroll through a zone and have monsters ignore you. Getting somewhere alive was an adventure. And to us, adventure was fun, not just gimmie my epic now gimmie another one.
Not if you have to go through the same zone again and again. It will be ANNOYING instead of fun.
In fact, that is why we don't do that anymore.
And if you want an adventure, go into a dungeon. There is no point doing it when all you want is goind from point A to B.
you know what he meant gees!dont nitpick!
That is not nitpik. Tell me a game that you never have to go back to the same zone. That is just plain impossible and i do NOT want to fight my way through everytime i want to go from city A to B.
Do you know that WOW take OUT open war PvP because people are complaining about that is blocking people who want to travel? There is no reason to inconvenient people who just want to get to a dungeon & have fun.
yep you dont like it ask for its removal got it now screw everybody else at least now you are happy even tho it left a huge amount of player without the gaming fix of chocie they had paid and even paid their monthly,yep good thinking!
if at least blizzard had just added their new stuff without touching what player loved it would have been fine put reward on both side make player choose .nope didnt happen they steered the player where blizzard and the casual player wanted them to be and say !ok heres your new wow playground!"(beurk)
Travel used to be exciting. It was not safe. Even low level zones had mobs who may be present that posed a threat. You couldn't just stroll through a zone and have monsters ignore you. Getting somewhere alive was an adventure. And to us, adventure was fun, not just gimmie my epic now gimmie another one.
Not if you have to go through the same zone again and again. It will be ANNOYING instead of fun.
In fact, that is why we don't do that anymore.
And if you want an adventure, go into a dungeon. There is no point doing it when all you want is goind from point A to B.
you know what he meant gees!dont nitpick!
That is not nitpik. Tell me a game that you never have to go back to the same zone. That is just plain impossible and i do NOT want to fight my way through everytime i want to go from city A to B.
Do you know that WOW take OUT open war PvP because people are complaining about that is blocking people who want to travel? There is no reason to inconvenient people who just want to get to a dungeon & have fun.
yep you dont like it ask for its removal got it now screw everybody else at least now you are happy even tho it left a huge amount of player without the gaming fix of chocie they had paid and even paid their monthly,yep good thinking!
if at least blizzard had just added their new stuff without touching what player loved it would have been fine put reward on both side make player choose .nope didnt happen they steered the player where blizzard and the casual player wanted them to be and say !ok heres your new wow playground!"(beurk)
So what? You jealous i am on the side of the issue that have more market and have the ears of developers?
And you have no proof of the "huge" amount of players without the gaming fix of choice. If their number is so huge, why aren't developers listening to them?
This is an example of one side of the debate. To illustrate how different our opinions are, I'll state that I would rather pay for dull moments, because I feel it adds more bang to my proverbial buck.
You don't have to. You can play any number of thrill-by-the-minute, quest-grinder themeparks available on the market, and you'll be playing with a larger majority of the MMO population. Honestly, if someone doesn't get the sandbox mentality, it's probably for the best that they play other games, as so the two separate sub-genre's aren't worried about credibility, or changing based upon another variable market. Homogonization is ruining the genre for everyone, not just the hardcore or sandboxers.
Then I have a clue for you. Pay me some money and i will send you a blank picture to stare at. I will GUARANTEE that it is DULL.
And if you want to chat in the process, i would recommend MSN. It is free but you can pay me, if you like to pay for chatting while staring at a dull screen.
I'm not talking about a game that's all lull and no action, I'm talking about the previous posts in which I mentioned the reasons why I find more personal enjoyment in games that hand me the good with the bad, and action in scattered intervals, in terms of experiences. I like the risk of having all my shit looted, that adds excitement out in unprotected territories. I like having to roam for PvP, because if I were to be consantly in the fray, it would lose it's charm (I've had this experience with most instanced PvP MMO's). These are just a few examples, and why I've already mentioned before this post that I think this is all a matter of preference. MMO companies are going to continue to reflect the larger shares of the market, and niche sandbox games will exist for the players like myself. Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla. Granted, some people probably like both, but we've all got an opinion why our flavor is the best.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I know I hear many mention and echo this part of what they are looking for exploration in regards to always having something interesting everywhere you go. Realistically, the part I don't get is, how feasible would this be and how much would it cost a company?
Look at it this way, in order to explore, you need space and with the space, you need to fill it in with something. If people truly wan something interesting for every square mile of the game, I think the developers would have to take even longer amounts of time spent on design, development and implementation just to cater to exploration in itself. Forget new, cool systems for any other part of the game, the companies would have to be so tied with making vast lands practically disabling them from catering to any other aspect of the game or particular type of crowd.
I'm sure plenty of companies truly want a crazy fantastical world filled with magic and adventure like in the books, but its just not cost effective enough to pay out in the end. Huge amount of resource trying to cater to a niche crowd.
PS If you are wanting this type of thing due to realism, then traveling isn't all that exciting hence why it isn't that much fun to the vast majority. That's why when you read adventurers traveling from one place to another, you never hear about what they do when they are just walking, or eating lunch, or going to the bathroom. The author just skips to the next important event that occurs.
Comments
I think you missed his analogy, the puttputt golfers should stick with their clown holes and leave the 18 holes as they are. If you dont have the time to travel and explore on the way or w/e go play a different game. MMO's are not for you.
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
i agree 100% grunt!play mo short term or mmo long term!or if blizzard every correct their pea shotter get both in the same game
world event with proper reward
instance event with proper reward
last but not least bring back the massive!
when info is readily avail on fan sites and wiki, ill be the first one to shout with scorn, l2p friggin nub, bcz nub is not limited to the pixelated walls of our game of choice. but rather an epidemic of 'tell me/give me" NAO that turns me the hell off from even talking to nubs.
but to address one of the ideas about hidden caves,dungeon crawls to reward the travelller....well random generated dungeons that can appear anywhere...or no where along a stretch of road, or side of mountain would be a great idea. that way no wiki can give step by step instructions and the gameplay remains fresh. could be a lvl 100 uber boss in there, could be a cpl orcs having beers. w/e make it random and give us back some fun/
there is no fun in mmo's anymore where there isnt a little discovery and personal initiative. going to mob area alpha to grind mobs looking for 50 drops of a special piece of crap so that i can sell at market, so that i can buy meaningless armor and reapeat the process is not good gaming. if you instance any of those steps it becomes less fun then the fantastic experience i described above and i might as well play a single player game.
fast travel however, i believe must stay. at least between realms or however the game splits its maps. in fantasy games it would just make sense that a wizard set up shop in a nice size town to zap travelers anywhere they want to go. in scifi, i would suppose that vehicles and mass transit exist and in steam punk, the old and overused hot air balloon waiting for you to buy a ticket. allow for fast travel, reward those who ride down the path..... just a thought.
For me, this whole issue of casual vs. hardcore relates to one basic principal. It's difficult for me to put into words, but I'll do my best.
In life, we have moments that cause negative impacts upon ourselves or our environments. These can often equate to feelings to describe our mood in relation to these events, such as "depression", "anger", or "frustration". There are also moments in which we experience positive impacts upon ourselves or our environments, which can be equated to such emotions as "happiness", "optimism", or "love". The reason I mention this in detail is to make certain that all readers, at this point, understand the basic for the following theory I'm going to present, which for some of you may seem extremely obvious.
When people want to relax, or more specifically play a video game, as player's we are looking to escape. This isn't just true for video games, but for all forms of entertainment media, such as literature or television. As a means of relaxation, they offer escapism from our daily lives, in which we cannot control the experiences which effect us. Escapism can further relate to many other goals that players have with their free time, such as success, an alternative life, emotional growth (in regards to some communities), or "fun". Again, the reason I say this is to establish a basic understanding of the terms.
Now, break away from the foundation I've just spent two paragraphs explaining. Imagine a world in which we do not experience negative emotion, in any situation whatsoever. Some of you are probably saying, "Damn, that'd be pretty rad. I could be happy all the time and not worry about my surroundings, or how my day is going to end. I know shit's going to be awesome." Then again, there are probably others saying to themselves, "Why would I want that? If I were to be happy all the time, from arrival to departure of this world, how would I ever know how great it is to feel joy, or what it even truly means?" This is exactly what we're experiencing in the MMO world.
We have a group of players on one side claiming that their games, which started as social expirements more than entertainment, should be full of instant gratification, always delivering something in which to aptly spend their time escaping to a hobby that should be providing them their one true ambition: having fun. On the other side, we've a group of players who believe we need to remove this instant gratification, to delay the moments of fun as so they're unexpected and to better pace the longevity of a title, as so to provide a scale in which to measure this happiness experienced with their session. Again, the reason behind this thinking is that without the times that were less than perfect, we'd have no way of knowing or understanding what it really mean to enjoy ourselves.
As a sandbox player, I can say that I'd rather have dull periods in my game, so that when something truly cool happens, it feels like the greatest experience of gaming history. Ever. I'm willing to wait for those moments, because the pay-off is so grand in comparison to what could be found in a casual grinder or themepark MMO, that dishes out much smaller pay-off's at a much more frequent scale. It's really just a matter of preference, and there's absolutely no reason to take this whole matter so seriously.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I would rather not pay for "dull periods".
My apologies for not explaining myself properly. Humans like convenience and we always try to reduce downtime. I real life we definately have a preference for fast travel - cars, planes - and "instancing" - never been so few people with so much space in each home. Its a natural development of a social structure.
"I would rather not pay for 'dull periods'."
This is an example of one side of the debate. To illustrate how different our opinions are, I'll state that I would rather pay for dull moments, because I feel it adds more bang to my proverbial buck.
You don't have to. You can play any number of thrill-by-the-minute, quest-grinder themeparks available on the market, and you'll be playing with a larger majority of the MMO population. Honestly, if someone doesn't get the sandbox mentality, it's probably for the best that they play other games, as so the two separate sub-genre's aren't worried about credibility, or changing based upon another variable market. Homogonization is ruining the genre for everyone, not just the hardcore or sandboxers.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Once upon a time, in the real world, I lived a 12 hour drive away from my family. I made that trip in one day there and one day back for the holidays. I did that 5 different times.
Guess what? I opted for faster travel and took a plane instead because it was to arduous and half of my "vacation" was spent driving and totally wired.
How many times must I travel the same road over and over? Anyone who believes doing something like that is going to be perpetually fun is simply not thinking in long term manner. And as most of us should know MMO's are about a long term enjoyment.
Eve gets aroudn this by not forcing you to travel the same road or any road. Other games have tried to have you use the same road over and over and of course eventually fail.
Because in the end almost everyone gets to the same point I did and just says "fuck this its not worth it". Boring, time, consuming and there are better options. I have done this 5 times I don't need to do it anymore and all value is gone.
Sorry but I don't agree. In EQ did people take ports, or did they wait on boats? In Asheron's Call did people run or use the portals?
Not sure where people get the idea that instant traveling is an idea brought by newer games, but its not. EQ had SOW and ports. AC people could buff themselves to run faster and use portals. I thought POK was in excellent idea in EQ. Not only did it serve as a meeting grounds, but it made traveling faster.
Slow travel times are a poor time sink. Its something I can't stand, and will quit a game over. I don't want my travel time to outweigh my play time, and in some games I've tried this holds true.
Please tell me you were being completely sarcastic there right?
what is the difference between behing 200 time in brd or 200 time anywhere in the world of warcraft if the reward are there as they are in an instance i dont the difference but runnig 6 time in a row deadmine because i dont need to move would be boring for me!
yep it speeded up eq1 player to the door to go to wow.then wow did the same and now player are all over different type of game till the game they are playing do a magic portal buttonthat can port them anywhere anytime in the game for 1 $ per port!
Here's a nice thought, just taken from Murphy's RotGS review part II, you can choose to pay for instant-travel, or to travel cheap and be subjected to a random encounter:
' Basically these random encounters serve as small instances for you or your party. There are a handful of different situations you could find yourself in, and each one is estimated to take 15-20 minutes at max to complete. You can avoid the encounters completely by paying for your trip, but should you choose to be cheap you can bet your tanned butt the caravan will want you to pay your fees in other ways and you'll be forced to join the Caravan Guard.
One such encounter is a stop at a small island where you'll be tasked with raiding a pirate encampment in order to retrieve the voyage's food rations from said pirates. It seems the ship has a small infestation of rats that means you need to go out and get more food by any means necessary. Another example has you firing ballistae at a massive kraken that's attacking the ship. They're short but brilliantly crafted little encounters that make the trip to Khitai seem a lot weightier than just zoning from one place to the other'
People who want to save time, can still do so by paying the fee, and those who want to get the sensation that you're actually travelling in a large world, will be caravan guard. Sure gonna try it
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
if its some sort of lore mission thing it might actually be chosen ,just for the encounter?lol people would just pay to travel!
Nothing keepin you from travelling by foot to wherever you want to go in most games. Granted you might have to get a flying mount or a boat in some, but having the option there is not a bad thing. And as for the first part, every dungeon in every mmo is hidden away when you first start playing. It's when you are in any one of these games for 3+ months that you are going to go and do the same dungeon over and over and over again. Randomization would be nice, but there would be some limit to that randomization and, not sure how long you have been playing these things, but the fact is instances were implemented because of things that people did in the past. For example in Ultima Online there were a number of caves that were where the best ore nodes were. These cave areas also became the favorite haunts of very large very well organized guilds that trounced everyone that came in. Its nice to think that a group of crafters can come in or hire a group of adventurers to come and protect them but it does not work out in reality. Think of the original EQ where you had to kill a specific mob for a particular quest line. Well that mob was 9 out of 10 times on a guild's farm rotation and you had no chance of getting your quest accomplished unless they felt overly generous or if you logged in at 3:37 am and HOPED it wasn't being farmed. Instances came about because of these and other factors. With the mentality of gamers today they are even more necessary than they were back in the "golden" age lol.
I myself, according to hte bartle test, am an Explorer first and foremost. You will find, I think, that the best way to get your "explorer" fix is to be one of the first in any new game and bust ass to get to those locations first. Otherwise you aren't going to really get to "explore".
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
karos online is supposed to have a random system was released last month if i recall!
Then I have a clue for you. Pay me some money and i will send you a blank picture to stare at. I will GUARANTEE that it is DULL.
And if you want to chat in the process, i would recommend MSN. It is free but you can pay me, if you like to pay for chatting while staring at a dull screen.
Because I *can* and it is fun. Because the developers are sensitive to people's time.
I did dungeon runs in 10 min all the time. Don't like it .. don't play. No one is forcing you to. And no one is taking out 10 min dungeon just because it hurts your sensitivity.
That is not nitpik. Tell me a game that you never have to go back to the same zone. That is just plain impossible and i do NOT want to fight my way through everytime i want to go from city A to B.
Do you know that WOW take OUT open war PvP because people are complaining about that is blocking people who want to travel? There is no reason to inconvenient people who just want to get to a dungeon & have fun.
OP: If you don't care what other people do, then stop complaining. You can walk. There is no one that has you tied up with a gun to your head if you decide to teleport or whatever else you define as instant travel. If you decide to walk when all your friends drive, they can either wait for you to wise up, wait for you while you travel there, or, most likely, leave you behind. But it's your choice. Hopefully you find a group of friends that all walk with you.
I agree with your first point, though. It'd be cool if there were many hidden locations throughout the world. WAR promised to do this, and there are a few cool spots to find, but the zones were too confined overall for there to be much exploration. I've heard Vanguard does this very well, but I haven't played it so I can't testify first-hand.
yep you dont like it ask for its removal got it now screw everybody else at least now you are happy even tho it left a huge amount of player without the gaming fix of chocie they had paid and even paid their monthly,yep good thinking!
if at least blizzard had just added their new stuff without touching what player loved it would have been fine put reward on both side make player choose .nope didnt happen they steered the player where blizzard and the casual player wanted them to be and say !ok heres your new wow playground!"(beurk)
So what? You jealous i am on the side of the issue that have more market and have the ears of developers?
And you have no proof of the "huge" amount of players without the gaming fix of choice. If their number is so huge, why aren't developers listening to them?
Star Trek online doesn't have instances. They use closet like boxes spaced every 10 feet.
I'm not talking about a game that's all lull and no action, I'm talking about the previous posts in which I mentioned the reasons why I find more personal enjoyment in games that hand me the good with the bad, and action in scattered intervals, in terms of experiences. I like the risk of having all my shit looted, that adds excitement out in unprotected territories. I like having to roam for PvP, because if I were to be consantly in the fray, it would lose it's charm (I've had this experience with most instanced PvP MMO's). These are just a few examples, and why I've already mentioned before this post that I think this is all a matter of preference. MMO companies are going to continue to reflect the larger shares of the market, and niche sandbox games will exist for the players like myself. Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla. Granted, some people probably like both, but we've all got an opinion why our flavor is the best.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I know I hear many mention and echo this part of what they are looking for exploration in regards to always having something interesting everywhere you go. Realistically, the part I don't get is, how feasible would this be and how much would it cost a company?
Look at it this way, in order to explore, you need space and with the space, you need to fill it in with something. If people truly wan something interesting for every square mile of the game, I think the developers would have to take even longer amounts of time spent on design, development and implementation just to cater to exploration in itself. Forget new, cool systems for any other part of the game, the companies would have to be so tied with making vast lands practically disabling them from catering to any other aspect of the game or particular type of crowd.
I'm sure plenty of companies truly want a crazy fantastical world filled with magic and adventure like in the books, but its just not cost effective enough to pay out in the end. Huge amount of resource trying to cater to a niche crowd.
PS If you are wanting this type of thing due to realism, then traveling isn't all that exciting hence why it isn't that much fun to the vast majority. That's why when you read adventurers traveling from one place to another, you never hear about what they do when they are just walking, or eating lunch, or going to the bathroom. The author just skips to the next important event that occurs.