This guy reminds me of Zorndorf. Remember that thread in the News forum here when EVE won "game of the year 2009" and he went mental and accused the staff of being corrupt?
LOL!!!!
I await his return when Eve wins Goty in 2010.
Zorn got banned or something, came back as CAMP1111, got banned again, and is now going by another handle (can't recall right now). But don't worry, you'll recognize the posting style, just watch any thread that criticizes WOW.
In the meantime, guess EVE players can bask in the glory yet again.
Did Eve players make Eve? No, you financed it.
So you don't get to bask in any glory, CCP gets to. They made it and they are reeling in the dough.
Eve players pays to play the game for it being fun for them, I assume, and shouldn't care less what some magazine says is a good game or not.
You are correct that CCP deserves the glory and they deserve it. Even if it wasn't top spot, number 3 beating out a lot of great games over the years is a great accomplishment for a bunch of drunken Icelandic nerds who mortgaged their grandparents homes to make a board game to raise money to start work on Eve.
But just to be clear this wasn't what the magazine thinks is the best, this is a poll of the readers and the list of choices was quite extensive.
It is fun to have something like this to shove in the faces of the trolls that regularly visit us here though
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
An honest to God top MMO games I believe would look something like this-
1. Everquest 1- I personally hated it, but no one can deny it really got things started. Was much more popular then UO and spawned the creation of everything from SWG to WoW and nearly everything else.
2. Lineage 1/2 - Not that big over here in the West, but one cannot deny that these were really the games to turn the East into a multi-million subscriber market for MMO games.
3. World of Warcraft - the first major MMO explosion in the West, and also extremely popular in the East. Sustained player base over 6 years now with no sign of slowing down.
4. EvE Online - The "little indy game that could," consistently wins awards and increases subscriber numbers. Very progressive and innovative and yet "old school" MMO much adored by it's fans.
5. UO - defined the genre and the "mmo experience" for a while, one of the classics.
6. Lord of the Rings Online - not a juggernaut but very much a success and a well supported and much loved game in one of the most popular fantasy universes ever.
And that's really all I can list because after that things get a whole lot more subjective and opinion oriented.
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
As far as Avatar control, I can understand since it has been pushed back again and again (and again). Lack of immersion due to being a ship is certainly a common enough complaint and goes hand in hand with Avatar control I would think.
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I reckon Eve sure as hell deserves 'a' spot in the top 100 but is it just me or is the rest of the top 5 (aside from Deus Ex) an utter joke! Wtf was every gamer born in the last few years or something.
HL2 was certainly no better than HL1, Fallout 3 no better than Fallout 2. TF2, a good game but there are far better contenders on the MP scene both young and old. I really hate these lists, because every time I see them the classics which freakin defined genres just get crappy consolation spots if a spot at all, whereas all the 2's and 3's (which are just the same thing with better graphics) get top honors. Ridiculous and just lame-ass marketing spin.
Yeah I just wanted to rant about the list but it's good to see Eve in there.
Frankly I would be upset if someone wasted such resources on such a poll to make it scientifc. We have more important things in the world to put those kinds on resources into.
Are people really this upset that Eve is #3 ? I would hate, actually no I would love to see what would happen if Eve actually placed #1.
It's not that anyone is upset, it's just that anyone who isn't an EvE fan (and I do play EvE myself) questions the validity of this poll considering the MASSIVE number of PC games that the vast majority of PC gamers would say deserves to be in the top 5 over the very suspect list given by this poll.
It's not JUST EvE, it's the lack of plenty of other genre defining and/or changing PC titles.
I question why the EvE faithful are SO adamant to defend their game's place in the top 5 of a shitty poll?
If this were a top 5 "current" PC games or top 5 in the past 5 years kind of poll it'd make a lot more sense... but all time? It just shows the average PC gamer reader who voted in this poll is quite new to the genre of PC games, or there is something fishy about the tabulation of votes.
How many times does it have to be said ?
It's a poll of their readers and their opinions of what they thought were the top 100 pc games of all time. Their opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
We aren't so adamant abour defending Eve as much as we are adamant about shutting up the fools who want to come on here make idiotic claims about rigged polls and how there are other more popular games and therefor those games are better and should be higher up.
Now go make a scientific poll of the people who actually voted and ask them why they voted the way they did. They are the ones responsible for the results that you and other people want to argue about.
Bottom line is this. Their readers voted Eve #3, quite possibley the most niche market game out there today. Either A) the poll was indeed rigged with bots and scripts as suggested in this thread or the readers at PC Gamer have enough sense in their heads to give credit where credit is due and vote with their heads and not their hearts.
If the answer is A then Eve people who like to rig polls need to learn to write a better script because they got beat out of the #1 spot.
If the answer is B then why do you think their opinion is any less valid than yours ?
Calling the results pointless, flawed or rigged leaves the burden of proof upon you, not us.
It's a poll of their readers and their opinions of what they thought were the top 100 pc games of all time. Their opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
We aren't so adamant abour defending Eve as much as we are adamant about shutting up the fools who want to come on here make idiotic claims about rigged polls and how there are other more popular games and therefor those games are better and should be higher up.
Now go make a scientific poll of the people who actually voted and ask them why they voted the way they did. They are the ones responsible for the results that you and other people want to argue about.
Bottom line is this. Their readers voted Eve #3, quite possibley the most niche market game out there today. Either A) the poll was indeed rigged with bots and scripts as suggested in this thread or the readers at PC Gamer have enough sense in their heads to give credit where credit is due and vote with their heads and not their hearts.
If the answer is A then Eve people who like to rig polls need to learn to write a better script because they got beat out of the #1 spot.
If the answer is B then why do you think their opinion is any less valid than yours ?
Calling the results pointless, flawed or rigged leaves the burden of proof upon you, not us.
However, I'm a firm believer that not all opinions are created equal.
An opinion can have more weight, more relevance, more accuracy, and more widely held acceptance as "truth" if it is backed up by solid evidence and factual accuracy.
If I were to say that it is my opinion that the Sun revolves around the Earth, despite being my own personal beliefs; these beliefs and thusly my opinion would carry practically no weight nor have any real relevance and be very widely accepted as "wrong" due to the available evidence to the contrary.
This thread really isn't about EvE, the pros and cons or whether you even like the game or not! I actually do like the game.
This thread is about hype.
It's about using bad tactics to create hype and make money. This is probably the #1 problem in the MMO industry right now. All of these "polls" and "reviews" and other subjective material does nothing but create more hype. It's trusting the opinion of the mob to make an informed decision.
And here's the rub, the mob is rarely informed nor due they care to be. They just buy into the hype and it pours over them likes waves in the sea.
An honest to God top MMO games I believe would look something like this-
1. Everquest 1- I personally hated it, but no one can deny it really got things started. Was much more popular then UO and spawned the creation of everything from SWG to WoW and nearly everything else.
2. Lineage 1/2 - Not that big over here in the West, but one cannot deny that these were really the games to turn the East into a multi-million subscriber market for MMO games.
3. World of Warcraft - the first major MMO explosion in the West, and also extremely popular in the East. Sustained player base over 6 years now with no sign of slowing down.
4. EvE Online - The "little indy game that could," consistently wins awards and increases subscriber numbers. Very progressive and innovative and yet "old school" MMO much adored by it's fans.
5. UO - defined the genre and the "mmo experience" for a while, one of the classics.
6. Lord of the Rings Online - not a juggernaut but very much a success and a well supported and much loved game in one of the most popular fantasy universes ever.
And that's really all I can list because after that things get a whole lot more subjective and opinion oriented.
Not that there is anything wrong with that list but it is mostly a list based on popularity. It really does not show concrete reasons for why they were that good.
So to complete your list I would like to add:
Everquest 1 - Was huge because it was one of the first MMORPGs rendered in one of the better 3D engines available at that time. It was also group oriented which fostered teamplay and cooperation as well as continually adding new content.
Lineage 1/2 - To be honest I dont understand why these games got so huge in the East so I cant comment much on them. I played Lineage 2 and it was a massive grind and maybe that was what appealed to some (apparently alot of) people.
World of Warcraft - Undeniably the king, based on popularity, of MMORPGs but why? Well it eliminated many elements in other MMORPGs that non MMORPG gamers did not like. Such as forced grouping, downtimes, harsh death penalty and such. It also was very linear, basically on rails, which apparently was to many peoples liking. Finally Blizzard and the Warcraft IP had a HUGE fanbase which they took advantage of when promoting the game.
Eve Online - Only PvP FFA, sandbox space sci-fi game out there rendered in, still, beautiful 3D engine, so that alone would draw some people. Then it has probably the most realistic in-game economies in the genre which will keep alot of people playing. I for one am not really playing the game much more but only manipulating the Eve market to earn enough ISK to keep my account going and my character trained.
UO - One of the first graphical MMORPGs available and the first to gain any amount of commercial success. It has some for alot of different people. PvE, PvP, housing, taming etc.
Others I would like to add to the list:
Asherons Call - One of the first 3D MMORPGs available and the first such that was a sandbox MMORPG. Reason I want this on the list is that this MMORPG was the best, imo, implementation of FFA PvP on the Darktide server. It had just enough death penalty and a travel system (portals) that made travelling, to where the action is, reasonably pain-less.
DAoC - Probably the best organised PvP MMORPG ever with its RvR system. To this date no game, including WoW, have managed to create such a fun factional PvP system. Unfourtunately its "sequel" Warhammer Online was a major dissapointment in this regard.
Warhammer Online - Only reason this game should be on the list is that it is the only MMORPG ever which allows you to level from 1-40(cap) without engaging in any PVE AT ALL and do it just as fast, if not faster (and with better equipment) than by doing PvE. No other game can claim that and that, as a PvP MMORPG gamer, is HUGE for me. Unfourtunately rest of the game pretty much sucks.
Originally posted by Yamota I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game?
I would say it is quite safe to consider this is not a 'criticism', it is just entanglement of feelings, believes, personal bias and conclusions based on such subjective perception.
That can be fine if presented as personal opinion but enough to say that it does not contribute to discussion in any way thus making it trolling if spammed over and over.
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
Is black and white the only things you can see. Only no death penalty or massive death penalty? For me a balanced death penalty, one that hurts but is not devestating, makes the game much more fun to play. How fun do you think it is for people to have to grind ISK for hours after losing one Battleship with T2 modules? Would it not be more reasonable that, an average gamer, would lose maybe 15 minutes worth of ISK grinding after one such death?
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
UI is very much subjective I know but do you honestly feel that controlling a million ton space ship should be about double clicking a direction? Is that how a RL super carrier is controlled?
I for one just don't feel like I am controlling a massive, city like space-ship with all these double clicking and right clicking to bring up menus and sub menus. It feels more like I am manipulating a computer Operative System.
Beside that there are alot of annoying GUI issues. Like when you want to sell items. You have to select and sell each different individual item instead of being able to select several and then sell it. Also why do I need to repackage before selling something? Why cant the GUI give you the option to repackage it for you? And so on.... the GUI is just not any good and the fact that it has not been changed much in the last 7 years shows that CCP just dont give a damn.
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
Is black and white the only things you can see. Only no death penalty or massive death penalty? For me a balanced death penalty, one that hurts but is not devestating, makes the game much more fun to play. How fun do you think it is for people to have to grind ISK for hours after losing one Battleship with T2 modules? Would it not be more reasonable that, an average gamer, would lose maybe 15 minutes worth of ISK grinding after one such death?
If you can fly a battleship making the isk back to replace a loss with insurance should only be a couple of missions to pay for the modules.
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
UI is very much subjective I know but do you honestly feel that controlling a million ton space ship should be about double clicking a direction? Is that how a RL super carrier is controlled?
Yes it is actually. The captain says "Hey I wanna go over here" and the crew makes it happen.
I for one just don't feel like I am controlling a massive, city like space-ship with all these double clicking and right clicking to bring up menus and sub menus. It feels more like I am manipulating a computer Operative System.
The game needs voice commands. "Hey ship, fly towards that planet over there" "Hey, ship orbit target at 5km"
Beside that there are alot of annoying GUI issues. Like when you want to sell items. You have to select and sell each different individual item instead of being able to select several and then sell it. Also why do I need to repackage before selling something? Why cant the GUI give you the option to repackage it for you? And so on.... the GUI is just not any good and the fact that it has not been changed much in the last 7 years shows that CCP just dont give a damn.
Things need to be repackaged to prevent people from putting broken items on the market and then you having to pay to repair them after you buy it. You can put stacks of a particular item type on the market. You just can't select all and put different items up. This is done because you aren't selling your stuff to an NPC, you are selling to actual players.
I don't know if you played the game 7 years ago but the UI was very different, there have been a lot of improvements. The UI is more complex than other games but that's because the game itself is more complex than others. There is a lot more things the player needs to do other than strafe left and right and hit 1 or 2 abilities repeatedly.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
Is black and white the only things you can see. Only no death penalty or massive death penalty? For me a balanced death penalty, one that hurts but is not devestating, makes the game much more fun to play. How fun do you think it is for people to have to grind ISK for hours after losing one Battleship with T2 modules?
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
UI is very much subjective I know but do you honestly feel that controlling a million ton space ship should be about double clicking a direction? Is that how a RL super carrier is controlled?
I for one just don't feel like I am controlling a massive, city like space-ship with all these double clicking and right clicking to bring up menus and sub menus. It feels more like I am manipulating a computer Operative System.
As demonstrated by my use of text highlighting previously, I see black, white, and yellow. I also try to explain my view to help show where I am coming from. So, back to my previous questioning on this, does the new insurance policy update do anything to bring the death penalty more in line with what you would like to see? I disagree with your point about grinding ISK, but that just comes down to my experience versus yours and there are numerous factors defining each of our experiences.
Having never piloted a space ship, in real life, I can't really say how it would or wouldn't work. I can relate to my experience piloting ships for the military and, well, EvE is a lot more fun. How do you propose it should be piloted? Should it be something like you would see on an Imperial battle ship in Star Wars? Something like the Enterprise in Star Trek? Can you give me a point of reference so I can understand your view a little better?
edit: saw your market ui complaints edited in after I posted. I can understnad your view, but I think the current way it is done is pretty important. If I could bulk sell everything, that would imply that I want to take the available buy order, no questions asked. This could have a pretty adverse affect on the overall market rather then me putting up a sell order for the item. So, the things you see as issues are moreso tools for the business people of EvE as I see it. The old "it's not a bug, its a feature" arguement I suppose.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game?
I would say it is quite safe to consider this is not a 'criticism', it is just entanglement of feelings, believes, personal bias and conclusions based on such subjective perception.
That can be fine if presented as personal opinion but enough to say that it does not contribute to discussion in any way thus making it trolling if spammed over and over.
Uhm this is not a scientific board, nor are posts here reviews, but often rather peoples subjective and objective opinions. That does not automatically make it trolling.
Trolling is probably the most mis-used therm used on the Internet and seem to have become anything that is remotely negative about something and on this site it seems to be like this: You are saying you don't like the game I like, so then you are trolling.
I for one think that so called fanboys are just as much trolls as those they allege to be trolls because the definition of troll is someone who's main intent is to rile up emotions and start flame-wars.
Off-topic I know but I am sick and tired of seeing troll whenever someone doesn't like someone else saying something bad about "their" game.
Originally posted by Yamota Uhm this is not a scientific board, nor are posts here reviews, but often rather peoples subjective and objective opinions. That does not automatically make it trolling. Trolling is probably the most mis-used therm used on the Internet and seem to have become anything that is remotely negative about something and on this site it seems to be like this: You are saying you don't like the game I like, so then you are trolling. I for one think that so called fanboys are just as much trolls as those they allege to be trolls because the definition of troll is someone who's main intent is to rile up emotions and start flame-wars. Off-topic I know but I am sick and tired of seeing troll whenever someone doesn't like someone else saying something bad about "their" game.
I can see you did not understand any from what I have written.
Having a different opinion is fine. But there are 2 kinds of opinions.
First the ones that are just subjective expression of feeling towards something: I like it! I hate it!, those can be just noted and accepted as such, however, they can't be discussed.
Second, there are opinions that are backed up with some arguments and reasoning. That is something that can be discussed - the arguments and reasoning.
This applies regardless of field and place you discuss a matter.
I heartily agree with your proposed definition of trolling and all I can add is that an emotional, subjective post with lack of reasoning or reasoning based on subjective perception and feelings is just the one that can only attract back similar emotional response since there is nothing reasonable to react to.
Trolling is not more misused term than is overrated personal opinion.
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
Is black and white the only things you can see. Only no death penalty or massive death penalty? For me a balanced death penalty, one that hurts but is not devestating, makes the game much more fun to play. How fun do you think it is for people to have to grind ISK for hours after losing one Battleship with T2 modules? Would it not be more reasonable that, an average gamer, would lose maybe 15 minutes worth of ISK grinding after one such death?
If you can fly a battleship making the isk back to replace a loss with insurance should only be a couple of missions to pay for the modules.
Losing a Battleship with T2 modules costs:
Based on the cost of your BS, 10-30 million ISK for the insurance (much more if you dont have an insurance)
30-40 millions for the T2 modules/weapons
Thats a total of around 60 million. Doing one level 4 mission gives you what, 30-40 millions and takes around an hour (including salvaging)? So lets say
One hour of doing level 4 mission(s).
Another hour to get to your level 4 mission agent, travel around and buy a new ship and all the modules you need.
So that is two hours, atleast, to get back into the action and then I havent counted the time for you to get back in deep 0.0 space if you are doing your fighting there.
In any case I would wager far too much for most people, FFA PvP or not. Asherons Call was also FFA PvP and there it took roughly 15 minutes to get rid of the death penalty and replace the stuff you lost and get back to the action. A much more balanced approach.
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
UI is very much subjective I know but do you honestly feel that controlling a million ton space ship should be about double clicking a direction? Is that how a RL super carrier is controlled?
Yes it is actually. The captain says "Hey I wanna go over here" and the crew makes it happen.
I am not expert in controlling RL super carriers but I wager it is much more complex than the captain pointing in a direction and then the ship just moves. You do realise that you need a whole crew of people to control such super ships? And that being a carrier captain is much more complex than just pointing in a direction and takes years of training?
Rhetorical question as you probably do think it is that easy but I would bet real money that it is not.
I for one just don't feel like I am controlling a massive, city like space-ship with all these double clicking and right clicking to bring up menus and sub menus. It feels more like I am manipulating a computer Operative System.
The game needs voice commands. "Hey ship, fly towards that planet over there" "Hey, ship orbit target at 5km"
That manevour is much more complex than you would think. The only reason why it doesnt appear to be so in Eve is that there are no collision possibilites at all and inertia of ships seems all wrong. It takes careful planning to dock a 1 million ton ship because it has massive inertia to consider but in Eve even a Battleship seems able to turn in just a few seconds.
Another immersion killer is the "bouncing effect" that ships have in this game instead of collision detection. So my 1 million ship happened to get too close a stargate (or even somehow get inside a stargate) so somehow it will just accelerate and bounce away like football. Uhm... yeah right. The physics engine in this game is crap.
Another evidence of that is that the ships in this game tilts when turning. Why is that? Ships in an atmosphere tilts when turning because of the forces in effect in an atmosphere. In space there is no need whatsoever to tilt a ship when turning and just shows how bad the physics engine is.
Beside that there are alot of annoying GUI issues. Like when you want to sell items. You have to select and sell each different individual item instead of being able to select several and then sell it. Also why do I need to repackage before selling something? Why cant the GUI give you the option to repackage it for you? And so on.... the GUI is just not any good and the fact that it has not been changed much in the last 7 years shows that CCP just dont give a damn.
Things need to be repackaged to prevent people from putting broken items on the market and then you having to pay to repair them after you buy it. You can put stacks of a particular item type on the market. You just can't select all and put different items up. This is done because you aren't selling your stuff to an NPC, you are selling to actual players.
That is just excuses. You can bring up a multiselection windows and all kinds of other sollutions to sell multiple items. It just depends on how much time you want to invest into creating a good GUI.
I don't know if you played the game 7 years ago but the UI was very different, there have been a lot of improvements. The UI is more complex than other games but that's because the game itself is more complex than others. There is a lot more things the player needs to do other than strafe left and right and hit 1 or 2 abilities repeatedly.
Complexity is not an excuse for a poor GUI. I have seen GUIs in real flight simulators and they are far superior and far more complex than Eves. Also, I played the game when it was released, and I do, occasionally, play the game now. Care to tell me what that has radically changed during the years?
The big things that I can remember is that they got rid of the radar blob and replaced it with a list of items because they couldnt get the radar right (another bad decision). Some short-cut functions has been added here and there and some grids and stuff has been added but overall the GUI has stayed the same.
If you can fly a battleship making the isk back to replace a loss with insurance should only be a couple of missions to pay for the modules.
Losing a Battleship with T2 modules costs:
Based on the cost of your BS, 10-30 million ISK for the insurance (much more if you dont have an insurance)
30-40 millions for the T2 modules/weapons
Thats a total of around 60 million. Doing one level 4 mission gives you what, 30-40 millions and takes around an hour? So lets say
One hour of doing level 4 mission(s).
Another hour to get to your level 4 mission agent, travel around and buy a new ship and all the modules you need.
So that is two hours, atleast, to get back into the action and then I havent counted the time for you to get back in deep 0.0 space if you are doing your fighting there.
Do you only have the one ship you flying fitted and when you lose it you have to spend the time to buy, refit and move ? Most people I know take the time to have several ships fully fitted and where they need to be. You did confirm though that the actual isk cost to replace is what I said though.
In any case I would wager far too much for most people, FFA PvP or not. Asherons Call was also FFA PvP and there it took roughly 15 minutes to get rid of the death penalty and replace the stuff you lost and get back to the action. A much more balanced approach.
With ships fully fitted and ready to go like I said above it takes about the same ammount of time, even less if someone is nice enough pod kill you back to where your ships are
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
UI is very much subjective I know but do you honestly feel that controlling a million ton space ship should be about double clicking a direction? Is that how a RL super carrier is controlled?
Yes it is actually. The captain says "Hey I wanna go over here" and the crew makes it happen.
I am not expert in controlling RL super carriers but I wager it is much more complex than the captain pointing in a direction and then the ship just moves. You do realise that you need a whole crew of people to control such super ships? And that being a carrier captain is much more complex than just pointing in a direction and takes years of training?
Rhetorical question as you probably do think it is that easy but I would bet real money that it is not.
The Captain tells the navigator where he wants to go and the ships crew makes it happen. Just like in Eve only instead of verbally telling your navigator you tell the game with your mouse clicks and the ships computer and crew makes it happen.
I for one just don't feel like I am controlling a massive, city like space-ship with all these double clicking and right clicking to bring up menus and sub menus. It feels more like I am manipulating a computer Operative System.
The game needs voice commands. "Hey ship, fly towards that planet over there" "Hey, ship orbit target at 5km"
That manevour is much more complex than you would think. The only reason why it doesnt appear to be so in Eve is that there are no collision possibilites at all and inertia of ships seems all wrong. It takes careful planning to dock a 1 million ton ship because it has massive inertia to consider but in Eve even a Battleship seems able to turn in just a few seconds.
There are some concessions made on reality to make the game not too insanely stupid to try and play. They tried manual docking way back in beta and it really was awful. And please let's not bring in what we think we know about how a space ship would handle in space many thousands of years from now. It is still a game afterall and not meant to be a realistic space ship flght simulator.
Another immersion killer is the "bouncing effect" that ships have in this game instead of collision detection. So my 1 million ship happened to get too close a stargate (or even somehow get inside a stargate) so somehow it will just accelerate and bounce away like football. Uhm... yeah right. The physics engine in this game is crap.
It has collision detection just not a damage model behind it. If we had collision damage just imagine the cries of griefing that would ensue. Either you would have to have the collision damage be treated like using yourguns and see how many people get concorded as they undock. Or you would have no Concord and people would truly grief you by ramming into you and destroying your ship. Either way many tears would be spilled.
Another evidence of that is that the ships in this game tilts when turning. Why is that? Ships in an atmosphere tilts when turning because of the forces in effect in an atmosphere. In space there is no need whatsoever to tilt a ship when turning and just shows how bad the physics engine is.
Beside that there are alot of annoying GUI issues. Like when you want to sell items. You have to select and sell each different individual item instead of being able to select several and then sell it. Also why do I need to repackage before selling something? Why cant the GUI give you the option to repackage it for you? And so on.... the GUI is just not any good and the fact that it has not been changed much in the last 7 years shows that CCP just dont give a damn.
Things need to be repackaged to prevent people from putting broken items on the market and then you having to pay to repair them after you buy it. You can put stacks of a particular item type on the market. You just can't select all and put different items up. This is done because you aren't selling your stuff to an NPC, you are selling to actual players.
That is just excuses. You can bring up a multiselection windows and all kinds of other sollutions to sell multiple items. It just depends on how much time you want to invest into creating a good GUI.
Go back and mklinics edited response to you about this one, I think that's a much better explanation than I can provide atm.
I don't know if you played the game 7 years ago but the UI was very different, there have been a lot of improvements. The UI is more complex than other games but that's because the game itself is more complex than others. There is a lot more things the player needs to do other than strafe left and right and hit 1 or 2 abilities repeatedly.
Complexity is not an excuse for a poor GUI. I have seen GUIs in real flight simulators and they are far superior and far more complex than Eves. Also, I played the game when it was released, and I do, occasionally, play the game now. Care to tell me what that has radically changed during the years?
The big things that I can remember is that they got rid of the radar blob and replaced it with a list of items because they couldnt get the radar right (another bad decision). Some short-cut functions has been added here and there and some grids and stuff has been added but overall the GUI has stayed the same.
Eve is not a flight simulator. Flight sims do one thing, simulate flight.
They have added alot of little things to the UI to make it more user friendly rather than a drastic redesign the entire thing. Now just like the Avatars the UI is something that there are many people complain about (I guess I am just so used to the UI at this point it really isn't an issue for me) but the UI is something that is being worked on and I am sure will be changed eventually. It's in the works, just not here yet and CCP is notoriously slow.
Edited out unnecessary stuff to make this post a little shorter and added pretty rainbow colors for fun.
Edit: Wow this is awful looking, I apologize for burning everyones retinas out.
Interesting. Yet only about 300k gamers actually play Eve where as 11 million people play WoW. Seems like alot of people like Eve on paper but not actually playing it. I for one love Eve on paper, sandbox, FFA PvP, real economy, but actually playing it is just boring... Don't get me wrong, I hate WoW, yet it strikes me odd that Eve is voted so high yet so few actually plays it.
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this does not count as it his own personal opinion not a statistics poll. (mklinic)
I assume by trolls you mean people who criticise the game? Well in that sense I am one of those trolls and I could not care less what poll Eve has being voted for, what matters for me is player experience and even though I want sandbox FFA PvP games Eve really doesn't do it for me. And as such Eve fails and the reason are as follows:
Archaic and clumsy GUI. One of the most important aspects that CCP really botched. For example, many have complained that the game feels more like a spreadsheet than a game and I tend to agree with that.
Way over the board death penalty. One would hope that there is some happy balance between WoWs virtually non existant death penalty and what you get in Eve. I for one don't enjoy Eve because of the stress involved in the risk of losing your ship (and with it hours of grinding ISK).
Avatar control - This has been asked for like forever and still not been implemented.
Lack of immersion - I don't feel like being a ship, I want to feel that I am controlling a ship.
These are quite common complaints about this game and strong contributing factors that the game is not bigger even though it is, basically, the only sandbox space-sci-fi MMORPG available on the market. It is aimed at a slim nische market due to the poor design decisions stated above.
So I will stick to my opinion that the game only scored high in the poll because the game is great in theory, not so much in practice.
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An honest to God top MMO games I believe would look something like this-
1. Everquest 1- I personally hated it, but no one can deny it really got things started. Was much more popular then UO and spawned the creation of everything from SWG to WoW and nearly everything else.
2. Lineage 1/2 - Not that big over here in the West, but one cannot deny that these were really the games to turn the East into a multi-million subscriber market for MMO games.
3. World of Warcraft - the first major MMO explosion in the West, and also extremely popular in the East. Sustained player base over 6 years now with no sign of slowing down.
4. EvE Online - The "little indy game that could," consistently wins awards and increases subscriber numbers. Very progressive and innovative and yet "old school" MMO much adored by it's fans.
5. UO - defined the genre and the "mmo experience" for a while, one of the classics.
6. Lord of the Rings Online - not a juggernaut but very much a success and a well supported and much loved game in one of the most popular fantasy universes ever.
And that's really all I can list because after that things get a whole lot more subjective and opinion oriented.
If you want FFA PvP, what were you expecting as a death penalty? I'm honestly just trying to reconcile the highlighted text as, when I think FFA PvP, a harsh death penalty (in my opinion) is implied. Do the new insurance changes bring it more in line with what you are looking for? If not, what do you think it should have?
As far as Avatar control, I can understand since it has been pushed back again and again (and again). Lack of immersion due to being a ship is certainly a common enough complaint and goes hand in hand with Avatar control I would think.
As far as the UI, I think it could use some tweaking, but overall, I find it extremely useful without getting the spreadsheet impression people tend to complain about. I don't know though, maybe just a matter of taste.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I reckon Eve sure as hell deserves 'a' spot in the top 100 but is it just me or is the rest of the top 5 (aside from Deus Ex) an utter joke! Wtf was every gamer born in the last few years or something.
HL2 was certainly no better than HL1, Fallout 3 no better than Fallout 2. TF2, a good game but there are far better contenders on the MP scene both young and old. I really hate these lists, because every time I see them the classics which freakin defined genres just get crappy consolation spots if a spot at all, whereas all the 2's and 3's (which are just the same thing with better graphics) get top honors. Ridiculous and just lame-ass marketing spin.
Yeah I just wanted to rant about the list but it's good to see Eve in there.
O_o o_O
How many times does it have to be said ?
It's a poll of their readers and their opinions of what they thought were the top 100 pc games of all time. Their opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
We aren't so adamant abour defending Eve as much as we are adamant about shutting up the fools who want to come on here make idiotic claims about rigged polls and how there are other more popular games and therefor those games are better and should be higher up.
Now go make a scientific poll of the people who actually voted and ask them why they voted the way they did. They are the ones responsible for the results that you and other people want to argue about.
Bottom line is this. Their readers voted Eve #3, quite possibley the most niche market game out there today. Either A) the poll was indeed rigged with bots and scripts as suggested in this thread or
the readers at PC Gamer have enough sense in their heads to give credit where credit is due and vote with their heads and not their hearts.
If the answer is A then Eve people who like to rig polls need to learn to write a better script because they got beat out of the #1 spot.
If the answer is B then why do you think their opinion is any less valid than yours ?
Calling the results pointless, flawed or rigged leaves the burden of proof upon you, not us.
Opinions are like @ssholes - everyone has one.
However, I'm a firm believer that not all opinions are created equal.
An opinion can have more weight, more relevance, more accuracy, and more widely held acceptance as "truth" if it is backed up by solid evidence and factual accuracy.
If I were to say that it is my opinion that the Sun revolves around the Earth, despite being my own personal beliefs; these beliefs and thusly my opinion would carry practically no weight nor have any real relevance and be very widely accepted as "wrong" due to the available evidence to the contrary.
This thread really isn't about EvE, the pros and cons or whether you even like the game or not! I actually do like the game.
This thread is about hype.
It's about using bad tactics to create hype and make money. This is probably the #1 problem in the MMO industry right now. All of these "polls" and "reviews" and other subjective material does nothing but create more hype. It's trusting the opinion of the mob to make an informed decision.
And here's the rub, the mob is rarely informed nor due they care to be. They just buy into the hype and it pours over them likes waves in the sea.
Not that there is anything wrong with that list but it is mostly a list based on popularity. It really does not show concrete reasons for why they were that good.
So to complete your list I would like to add:
Everquest 1 - Was huge because it was one of the first MMORPGs rendered in one of the better 3D engines available at that time. It was also group oriented which fostered teamplay and cooperation as well as continually adding new content.
Lineage 1/2 - To be honest I dont understand why these games got so huge in the East so I cant comment much on them. I played Lineage 2 and it was a massive grind and maybe that was what appealed to some (apparently alot of) people.
World of Warcraft - Undeniably the king, based on popularity, of MMORPGs but why? Well it eliminated many elements in other MMORPGs that non MMORPG gamers did not like. Such as forced grouping, downtimes, harsh death penalty and such. It also was very linear, basically on rails, which apparently was to many peoples liking. Finally Blizzard and the Warcraft IP had a HUGE fanbase which they took advantage of when promoting the game.
Eve Online - Only PvP FFA, sandbox space sci-fi game out there rendered in, still, beautiful 3D engine, so that alone would draw some people. Then it has probably the most realistic in-game economies in the genre which will keep alot of people playing. I for one am not really playing the game much more but only manipulating the Eve market to earn enough ISK to keep my account going and my character trained.
UO - One of the first graphical MMORPGs available and the first to gain any amount of commercial success. It has some for alot of different people. PvE, PvP, housing, taming etc.
Others I would like to add to the list:
Asherons Call - One of the first 3D MMORPGs available and the first such that was a sandbox MMORPG. Reason I want this on the list is that this MMORPG was the best, imo, implementation of FFA PvP on the Darktide server. It had just enough death penalty and a travel system (portals) that made travelling, to where the action is, reasonably pain-less.
DAoC - Probably the best organised PvP MMORPG ever with its RvR system. To this date no game, including WoW, have managed to create such a fun factional PvP system. Unfourtunately its "sequel" Warhammer Online was a major dissapointment in this regard.
Warhammer Online - Only reason this game should be on the list is that it is the only MMORPG ever which allows you to level from 1-40(cap) without engaging in any PVE AT ALL and do it just as fast, if not faster (and with better equipment) than by doing PvE. No other game can claim that and that, as a PvP MMORPG gamer, is HUGE for me. Unfourtunately rest of the game pretty much sucks.
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I certainly welcome the additions and justifications, thank you.
My list was rushed and off the top of my head, thank you for refinement!
I would say it is quite safe to consider this is not a 'criticism', it is just entanglement of feelings, believes, personal bias and conclusions based on such subjective perception.
That can be fine if presented as personal opinion but enough to say that it does not contribute to discussion in any way thus making it trolling if spammed over and over.
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As demonstrated by my use of text highlighting previously, I see black, white, and yellow. I also try to explain my view to help show where I am coming from. So, back to my previous questioning on this, does the new insurance policy update do anything to bring the death penalty more in line with what you would like to see? I disagree with your point about grinding ISK, but that just comes down to my experience versus yours and there are numerous factors defining each of our experiences.
Having never piloted a space ship, in real life, I can't really say how it would or wouldn't work. I can relate to my experience piloting ships for the military and, well, EvE is a lot more fun. How do you propose it should be piloted? Should it be something like you would see on an Imperial battle ship in Star Wars? Something like the Enterprise in Star Trek? Can you give me a point of reference so I can understand your view a little better?
edit: saw your market ui complaints edited in after I posted. I can understnad your view, but I think the current way it is done is pretty important. If I could bulk sell everything, that would imply that I want to take the available buy order, no questions asked. This could have a pretty adverse affect on the overall market rather then me putting up a sell order for the item. So, the things you see as issues are moreso tools for the business people of EvE as I see it. The old "it's not a bug, its a feature" arguement I suppose.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Pretty much. PC Gamer UK fawn over EVE anyway.
Good thing it was a reader voted poll then and not an editors picks right ?
Uhm this is not a scientific board, nor are posts here reviews, but often rather peoples subjective and objective opinions. That does not automatically make it trolling.
Trolling is probably the most mis-used therm used on the Internet and seem to have become anything that is remotely negative about something and on this site it seems to be like this: You are saying you don't like the game I like, so then you are trolling.
I for one think that so called fanboys are just as much trolls as those they allege to be trolls because the definition of troll is someone who's main intent is to rile up emotions and start flame-wars.
Off-topic I know but I am sick and tired of seeing troll whenever someone doesn't like someone else saying something bad about "their" game.
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Where did I say it wasnt?
how come there are so many empty servers in WOW?
11M, I have yet to see proof of that, sure, 11M since it's launch, but not now on the actual servers right now.
And EVE also has <50k players, 70% are alt accounts. :P
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I can see you did not understand any from what I have written.
Having a different opinion is fine. But there are 2 kinds of opinions.
First the ones that are just subjective expression of feeling towards something: I like it! I hate it!, those can be just noted and accepted as such, however, they can't be discussed.
Second, there are opinions that are backed up with some arguments and reasoning. That is something that can be discussed - the arguments and reasoning.
This applies regardless of field and place you discuss a matter.
I heartily agree with your proposed definition of trolling and all I can add is that an emotional, subjective post with lack of reasoning or reasoning based on subjective perception and feelings is just the one that can only attract back similar emotional response since there is nothing reasonable to react to.
Trolling is not more misused term than is overrated personal opinion.
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I take it back. The tears in this thread are at least as good in the GoTY-09 thread.
Keep 'em rolling.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Edited out unnecessary stuff to make this post a little shorter and added pretty rainbow colors for fun.
Edit: Wow this is awful looking, I apologize for burning everyones retinas out.
Lets cut out the personal attacks guy, keep it civil.