In any event, that is not what the OP said. He never said the entire genre had to be catered to what he wants, just whether a game or maybe a few games would be sucessful if they forced grouping on its playerbase. You have to keep in mind forced is not the same thing as strongly encourage (aka, bonuses and benefits to loot, xp, whatever when in a group vs. solo ventures).
Yes. The reason I made it clear that grouping would be required for leveling was that players who prefer to solo would choose a different game - leaving only players who want to group. Bribing players to group ends up with soloers grouping for the rewards, rather than for enjoyment.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Once again; the MMO genre was designed around player interaction, not just grouping.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Well here is a great way to send a genre to it's death. Nothing says success like a shrinking playerbase. I most have missed the news flash where all MMOs had to be designed one way and one way only, to cater to people who wants groups or nothing. In any event, that is not what the OP said. He never said the entire genre had to be catered to what he wants, just whether a game or maybe a few games would be sucessful if they forced grouping on its playerbase. You have to keep in mind forced is not the same thing as strongly encourage (aka, bonuses and benefits to loot, xp, whatever when in a group vs. solo ventures).
I took a bit of a different stance on it as forced grouping for further advancement past a point be it 2 people, 6 people, or 50 people. However there needs to be solo content to a point but past that soloing should have a fairly difficult time if not impossible especially if you want any decent rewards. One should never be able imo to reach max level off of only soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Once again; the MMO genre was designed around player interaction, not just grouping.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
As a person who solo's i interact with people a lot.. I may come up to a spawn and someones fighting the mobs there, perhaps i give them a hand and we team up for a bit.. Toss him a heal if he gets in trouble while i'm fighting a seperate spawn.. Toss a few lightning bolts if he looks to be in trouble.. Selling my wares, and collectables at the bank/auction house/on a vendor, i'm interacting with people.. a group of opposite faction attack my capital city, and I help fight them off, all while not grouped.. sounds like interaction to me.
Just because folks may "solo" for a good part of their game time, doesnt mean they arent interacting with the people around them. I would say its almost impossible to do that in an MMO actually..
I can definitely see the value in the argument for low level soloing, but I do think that the proper mechanics can provide enough opportunities for at least pairing up with one other player.
I played a LOT of alts in WoW, and I noticed that even in beginning areas people would not group even for kill quests which would go much faster in a group. That tells me that those players were not interested in grouping.
A lot of people choose to solo. Having them playing the same game as those who want to group only causes problems.
I'd even go so far as to automatically group newbies in starting areas.
Perhaps a game like WoW should have all newbies for a faction start in one starter area, and then go to the racial areas at L5 or so.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As a person who solo's i interact with people a lot.. I may come up to a spawn and someones fighting the mobs there, perhaps i give them a hand and we team up for a bit.. Toss him a heal if he gets in trouble while i'm fighting a seperate spawn.. Toss a few lightning bolts if he looks to be in trouble.. Selling my wares, and collectables at the bank/auction house/on a vendor, i'm interacting with people.. a group of opposite faction attack my capital city, and I help fight them off, all while not grouped.. sounds like interaction to me.
It sounds like grouping to me. Whether it's official or not, you are playing the game with other people.
Just because folks may "solo" for a good part of their game time, doesnt mean they arent interacting with the people around them. I would say its almost impossible to do that in an MMO actually..
Not in WoW. Quite easy, actually.
I think your definition of soloing is different than some.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As a person who solo's i interact with people a lot.. I may come up to a spawn and someones fighting the mobs there, perhaps i give them a hand and we team up for a bit.. Toss him a heal if he gets in trouble while i'm fighting a seperate spawn.. Toss a few lightning bolts if he looks to be in trouble.. Selling my wares, and collectables at the bank/auction house/on a vendor, i'm interacting with people.. a group of opposite faction attack my capital city, and I help fight them off, all while not grouped.. sounds like interaction to me.
It sounds like grouping to me. Whether it's official or not, you are playing the game with other people.
Just because folks may "solo" for a good part of their game time, doesnt mean they arent interacting with the people around them. I would say its almost impossible to do that in an MMO actually..
Not in WoW. Quite easy, actually.
I think your definition of soloing is different than some.
Perhaps it is different, and I never really cared for Wow, so i don't use that as the definition of soloing..
Personally, I don't think there should be "forced" anything. You want to solo, knock yourself out, want to raid, find a group.
Sadly, the way MMOs are designed now with their epic lewtz, you have to "work" to progress instead of have fun.. or so it seems.. If you didn't "work" hard enough, you got welfare epix, or some such... If you didn't play the game the way i did, or the way i think it should be played... your epix are worth less...
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Once again; the MMO genre was designed around player interaction, not just grouping.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
What is this "community" you speak of? A group of strangers forced to use each other to achieve goals within the system? Wouldn't it (and the individual players of which it is composed) be better served if people group because they want to? Because its more enjoyable? Why not set the game up with the proper tools that do not require one to spend a good part of ones time LFG?
World of Warcrafts Dungeon Finder is *part* of such a system. But they neglected to add a vital element. That being cross realm chat and the ability to personally form parties for DF cross realm. They should also have made the friends list cross realm. With those additions a community could be created no matter what realm you are on.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
Ok, that's just complete drivel.
Soloing has been a supported playstyle in MMOs since the inception of the genre, so for you to state that the genre is "supposed to be about grouping" is just wrong. It isn't, and it never has been. Soloers can and do meaningfully interact with other players in MMOs. Attempting to argue otherwise is just a self-serving lie to support your own bias.
I played a LOT of alts in WoW, and I noticed that even in beginning areas people would not group even for kill quests which would go much faster in a group. That tells me that those players were not interested in grouping.
Why split loot and XP when the mobs die like flies? If I'm onto my last mob, why would I need to group with another newbie who was maybe just starting? The quests and mobs are so easy even a 5 year-old can solo them for god's sake!
A lot of people choose to solo. Having them playing the same game as those who want to group only causes problems.
To the people who feel they have to group even vs. simple yard trash in newbie zones, maybe. Me? I'm just fine solo thanks - knock yourself out and group with like-minded people if you wish. Having people playing the game who want to group doesn't cause me any problems.
I'd even go so far as to automatically group newbies in starting areas.
...and I'd just as instantly and automatically leave the group. If I don't want to group, I don't have to, and if you don't like that, well, tough titty kiddo. God, people like you are just like a religious cult - it's YOUR way or no way. Look, find someone as clingy as you and form a group if you want to, and stop the incessant whining!
Perhaps a game like WoW should have all newbies for a faction start in one starter area, and then go to the racial areas at L5 or so.
It's MY money and MY time, and I'll play how I like, when I like, where I like and solo 99% of the time if I so choose. I don't pay money to make you feel like you're wanted. Live with it and get over it. Meanwhile here's some cheese to go with your whine.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
I easily support forced grouping for advancement past a learning curve level which I'd probably say is around the 30-50% to max level mark. The point being that why the hell play an MMO if your going to just solo. MMO's are made for co-op play and competition. They are not IMO made by the developers with in mind showing off the biggest epeen with all your leet gear that you got soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
I easily support forced grouping for advancement past a learning curve level which I'd probably say is around the 30-50% to max level mark. The point being that why the hell play an MMO if your going to just solo. MMO's are made for co-op play and competition. They are not IMO made by the developers with in mind showing off the biggest epeen with all your leet gear that you got soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
And that cuts both ways right?
So they should make solo friendly games you enjoy, like WoW, AND it would be nice to make games for the people that enjoy group friendly games like the original poster, so a CHOICE exists for everyone, right?
Or should there be no choice, and everyone has to play solo friendly games?
World of Warcrafts Dungeon Finder is *part* of such a system. But they neglected to add a vital element. That being cross realm chat and the ability to personally form parties for DF cross realm. They should also have made the friends list cross realm. With those additions a community could be created no matter what realm you are on.
But that would mean they lose income from server transfer. and thats the reason they neglected that vital element.
I easily support forced grouping for advancement past a learning curve level which I'd probably say is around the 30-50% to max level mark. The point being that why the hell play an MMO if your going to just solo. MMO's are made for co-op play and competition. They are not IMO made by the developers with in mind showing off the biggest epeen with all your leet gear that you got soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
And that cuts both ways right?
So they should make solo friendly games you enjoy, like WoW, AND it would be nice to make games for the people that enjoy group friendly games like the original poster, so a CHOICE exists for everyone, right?
Or should there be no choice, and everyone has to play solo friendly games?
Like I said in the last line of the post, it's not my business if someone makes a game that isn't solo friendly. Choice is great. I think the best games are those that strike a balance between types of content though. Solo, group, and raid... one should have options in all three categories throughout the game. Every now and then I like a nice group or raid as well.
I easily support forced grouping for advancement past a learning curve level which I'd probably say is around the 30-50% to max level mark. The point being that why the hell play an MMO if your going to just solo. MMO's are made for co-op play and competition. They are not IMO made by the developers with in mind showing off the biggest epeen with all your leet gear that you got soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
And that cuts both ways right?
So they should make solo friendly games you enjoy, like WoW, AND it would be nice to make games for the people that enjoy group friendly games like the original poster, so a CHOICE exists for everyone, right?
Or should there be no choice, and everyone has to play solo friendly games?
As long as its the players choice, why should it matter? If you want to solo, solo. If you prefer to group, by all means do so. What is causing the conflict is those who advocate that peoples choices be dictated to them.
Yes, but only in the sense that exp should come faster in groups than solo. Your rep in the community should be a factor in any MMO. Todays solo friendly games kill the true multi player aspect of this genre.
No, you know what kills communities? The ridiculous gear grind and rush to max cap. Those encourage grouping, not to group, but to screw others over so you can get your crap faster. You don't get together with others because you enjoy their company, you do it because they're useful for getting stuff you cannot get on your own.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
These particular posts are SO FUNNY!
That's not the word I'd use. Pathetic, stupid and completely full of shit is more accurate.
Yes, but only in the sense that exp should come faster in groups than solo. Your rep in the community should be a factor in any MMO. Todays solo friendly games kill the true multi player aspect of this genre.
No, you know what kills communities? The ridiculous gear grind and rush to max cap. Those encourage grouping, not to group, but to screw others over so you can get your crap faster. You don't get together with others because you enjoy their company, you do it because they're useful for getting stuff you cannot get on your own.
Soloing has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
There are also people who would say that soloists "solo" so that they can keep all the loot. I don't believe I've played many games where the good "loot" didn't require a group.
Most people solo because they don't want to deal with unsavory characters, don't want to deal with vast differences in play style and want to get into the game instead of waiting only to have the members of the newly formed party spend innordinate amounts of time turning in quests or hanging in their warehouse.
I remember one time waiting for a group, we finally got one and one of the members wasn't saying much. After we waited he then said that he was quickly doing a quest but he'd be done in a few minutes.
It's just nonsense. When I'm in a group I treat it as "my time is their time" and I expect a similar consideration.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
These particular posts are SO FUNNY!
That's not the word I'd use. Pathetic, stupid and completely full of shit is more accurate.
There are also people who would say that soloists "solo" so that they can keep all the loot. I don't believe I've played many games where the good "loot" didn't require a group.
Most people solo because they don't want to deal with unsavory characters, don't want to deal with vast differences in play style and want to get into the game instead of waiting only to have the members of the newly formed party spend innordinate amounts of time turning in quests or hanging in their warehouse.
I remember one time waiting for a group, we finally got one and one of the members wasn't saying much. After we waited he then said that he was quickly doing a quest but he'd be done in a few minutes.
It's just nonsense. When I'm in a group I treat it as "my time is their time" and I expect a similar consideration.
And that much is fine, I think we all expect that the people we group with are going to give the group equal consideration to what they expect out of it, but we all know that doesn't always happen. I've been in groups where the tank, without telling anyone, decided to go AFK for a while in the middle of a battle and the group wiped because the tank spent the battle standing there doing nothing. I've had people in groups demand the first pick of the loot because they are obviously so much better than everyone else, they deserve it. I've had people in groups let their kids take over their characters when they go to the bathroom and when everyone wipes, they say "hey, he's 7, what do you expect?"
Since time is valuable, getting a PUG together, waiting for everyone to get together, buffing everyone up and then having someone pull something stupid and ruin the last hour's worth of work just doesn't make me want to group. If that's what's being held out as "what MMOs are all about", count me out, at least I know I won't stab myself in the back.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
Playing solo => no player interaction. Solo should be something you#re doing while waiting for a group. The more you can accomplish solo the worse the community will become. If you have to group to succeed you can't act like an idiot because soon you won't find groups.
If solo is that important for you, play a single player game really that simple.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
These particular posts are SO FUNNY!
That's not the word I'd use. Pathetic, stupid and completely full of shit is more accurate.
I was being polite.
I call a spade a spade. I find it doesn't confuse the people who that statement best fits as when you pussyfoot around the truth.
Politeness is a form of diplomacy; you develop this life skill when you interact with people…grouping, stuff like that.
Seriously, there is etiquette to grouping and it takes time to learn, you do get a lot of youngsters who act like they own their MMO and even long term players who think their subs are a mortgage payment. But inside a guild these problems are rare, in a PUG they are an occupational hazard. I think the hazard is worth the feeling of achievement you get when you complete together what you cannot do alone. Not everyone gets that sense of achievement, for them the frustration factor is too high. That’s what designers and players need to work on to make grouping a success, more achievement and less frustration.
WoW's new(ish) grouping system, WAR's public quests and the CoH/AoC buddy system all point in the right direction.
I easily support forced grouping for advancement past a learning curve level which I'd probably say is around the 30-50% to max level mark. The point being that why the hell play an MMO if your going to just solo. MMO's are made for co-op play and competition. They are not IMO made by the developers with in mind showing off the biggest epeen with all your leet gear that you got soloing.
If you want to solo play a single player game, if you don't have time to group always work on alts who are lower level. If you get stuck midgame because you won't or can't group maybe you should never have joined a genre designed around multiple players.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
And that cuts both ways right?
So they should make solo friendly games you enjoy, like WoW, AND it would be nice to make games for the people that enjoy group friendly games like the original poster, so a CHOICE exists for everyone, right?
Or should there be no choice, and everyone has to play solo friendly games?
As long as its the players choice, why should it matter? If you want to solo, solo. If you prefer to group, by all means do so. What is causing the conflict is those who advocate that peoples choices be dictated to them.
No, I said it would be nice for a CHOICE right? LIke if i prefer games that are group friendly, it's ok with you if developers make those so I can choose to play them right?
Or are you saying I should have NO choice, and I HAVE to like your solo friendly game?
Why do you want to force me play solo friendly games? What's wrong with providing choices for players?
Why does it upset you if I have a choice?
If you want to play a solo friendly game, play a solo friendly game. If you want to play a group friendly game, play a group friendly game.
You think ONLY solo friendly games should be made and EVERYONE should play those or nothing at all?
That's seriously your idea of a "choice" forcing everyone to play the sort of game YOU like?
You do realize that's what you're doing right? "I like solo friendly games. Why can't you just play my solo friendly game and like it? I'll give you the CHOICE to play my solo friendly game!"
Yes, but what if I dont' have fun in solo friendly game, and I have fun in group friendly games?
Why does it upset you that a developer might make a game I find enjoyable?
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Yes. The reason I made it clear that grouping would be required for leveling was that players who prefer to solo would choose a different game - leaving only players who want to group. Bribing players to group ends up with soloers grouping for the rewards, rather than for enjoyment.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Couldn't have said it better myself. Soloing = no player interaction other then the occasional brag one may make. The games are based around player interaction which for the majority is grouping as 2 or more people up to dozens or more in a form of a raid. Most games also have things to do while waiting on a group such as crafting or other tradeskill type professions or even exploring. Also PvP. Just because you don't like one aspect of a MMO doesn't mean you should expect the other aspects ruined for your own selfishness. These games are based around co-op with a side serving of co-pvp
I took a bit of a different stance on it as forced grouping for further advancement past a point be it 2 people, 6 people, or 50 people. However there needs to be solo content to a point but past that soloing should have a fairly difficult time if not impossible especially if you want any decent rewards. One should never be able imo to reach max level off of only soloing.
As a person who solo's i interact with people a lot.. I may come up to a spawn and someones fighting the mobs there, perhaps i give them a hand and we team up for a bit.. Toss him a heal if he gets in trouble while i'm fighting a seperate spawn.. Toss a few lightning bolts if he looks to be in trouble.. Selling my wares, and collectables at the bank/auction house/on a vendor, i'm interacting with people.. a group of opposite faction attack my capital city, and I help fight them off, all while not grouped.. sounds like interaction to me.
Just because folks may "solo" for a good part of their game time, doesnt mean they arent interacting with the people around them. I would say its almost impossible to do that in an MMO actually..
I can definitely see the value in the argument for low level soloing, but I do think that the proper mechanics can provide enough opportunities for at least pairing up with one other player.
I played a LOT of alts in WoW, and I noticed that even in beginning areas people would not group even for kill quests which would go much faster in a group. That tells me that those players were not interested in grouping.
A lot of people choose to solo. Having them playing the same game as those who want to group only causes problems.
I'd even go so far as to automatically group newbies in starting areas.
Perhaps a game like WoW should have all newbies for a faction start in one starter area, and then go to the racial areas at L5 or so.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not in WoW. Quite easy, actually.
I think your definition of soloing is different than some.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Perhaps it is different, and I never really cared for Wow, so i don't use that as the definition of soloing..
Personally, I don't think there should be "forced" anything. You want to solo, knock yourself out, want to raid, find a group.
Sadly, the way MMOs are designed now with their epic lewtz, you have to "work" to progress instead of have fun.. or so it seems.. If you didn't "work" hard enough, you got welfare epix, or some such... If you didn't play the game the way i did, or the way i think it should be played... your epix are worth less...
bleh...
What is this "community" you speak of? A group of strangers forced to use each other to achieve goals within the system? Wouldn't it (and the individual players of which it is composed) be better served if people group because they want to? Because its more enjoyable? Why not set the game up with the proper tools that do not require one to spend a good part of ones time LFG?
World of Warcrafts Dungeon Finder is *part* of such a system. But they neglected to add a vital element. That being cross realm chat and the ability to personally form parties for DF cross realm. They should also have made the friends list cross realm. With those additions a community could be created no matter what realm you are on.
Ok, that's just complete drivel.
Soloing has been a supported playstyle in MMOs since the inception of the genre, so for you to state that the genre is "supposed to be about grouping" is just wrong. It isn't, and it never has been. Soloers can and do meaningfully interact with other players in MMOs. Attempting to argue otherwise is just a self-serving lie to support your own bias.
These particular posts are SO FUNNY!
Why would you add a multiplayer mode to a single player game? It's mean't to be played single player.
Same thing.
There are things one gets out of an MMO that one just can't get out of a single player game. You don't have to group to experience community, or the sense that the world is more 'real'... a player economy, crafting, guilds, et cetera.. Even while soloing I'm interacting in meaningful ways with others, and on occasion I do want to group (just not most of the time). If you don't understand this that's okay, the great thing is I'm not asking you to. I'm just asking that you accept there's more than one way to play these games. It sounds like a lot of people just like to play tiny Hitlers. Who are you to tell me what I should be playing, or how I should be having fun? I'm not going to stop playing games in ways that are supported just because you can't stand the thought that other people are doing things differently. Grow up and learn to share your toys or go find a dev who's willing to make a game just for group fanatics who don't want to mingle with the dirty soloers.
And that cuts both ways right?
So they should make solo friendly games you enjoy, like WoW, AND it would be nice to make games for the people that enjoy group friendly games like the original poster, so a CHOICE exists for everyone, right?
Or should there be no choice, and everyone has to play solo friendly games?
But that would mean they lose income from server transfer. and thats the reason they neglected that vital element.
Like I said in the last line of the post, it's not my business if someone makes a game that isn't solo friendly. Choice is great. I think the best games are those that strike a balance between types of content though. Solo, group, and raid... one should have options in all three categories throughout the game. Every now and then I like a nice group or raid as well.
As long as its the players choice, why should it matter? If you want to solo, solo. If you prefer to group, by all means do so. What is causing the conflict is those who advocate that peoples choices be dictated to them.
No, you know what kills communities? The ridiculous gear grind and rush to max cap. Those encourage grouping, not to group, but to screw others over so you can get your crap faster. You don't get together with others because you enjoy their company, you do it because they're useful for getting stuff you cannot get on your own.
Soloing has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
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That's not the word I'd use. Pathetic, stupid and completely full of shit is more accurate.
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There are also people who would say that soloists "solo" so that they can keep all the loot. I don't believe I've played many games where the good "loot" didn't require a group.
Most people solo because they don't want to deal with unsavory characters, don't want to deal with vast differences in play style and want to get into the game instead of waiting only to have the members of the newly formed party spend innordinate amounts of time turning in quests or hanging in their warehouse.
I remember one time waiting for a group, we finally got one and one of the members wasn't saying much. After we waited he then said that he was quickly doing a quest but he'd be done in a few minutes.
It's just nonsense. When I'm in a group I treat it as "my time is their time" and I expect a similar consideration.
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I was being polite.
And that much is fine, I think we all expect that the people we group with are going to give the group equal consideration to what they expect out of it, but we all know that doesn't always happen. I've been in groups where the tank, without telling anyone, decided to go AFK for a while in the middle of a battle and the group wiped because the tank spent the battle standing there doing nothing. I've had people in groups demand the first pick of the loot because they are obviously so much better than everyone else, they deserve it. I've had people in groups let their kids take over their characters when they go to the bathroom and when everyone wipes, they say "hey, he's 7, what do you expect?"
Since time is valuable, getting a PUG together, waiting for everyone to get together, buffing everyone up and then having someone pull something stupid and ruin the last hour's worth of work just doesn't make me want to group. If that's what's being held out as "what MMOs are all about", count me out, at least I know I won't stab myself in the back.
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I call a spade a spade. I find it doesn't confuse the people who that statement best fits as when you pussyfoot around the truth.
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Politeness is a form of diplomacy; you develop this life skill when you interact with people…grouping, stuff like that.
Seriously, there is etiquette to grouping and it takes time to learn, you do get a lot of youngsters who act like they own their MMO and even long term players who think their subs are a mortgage payment. But inside a guild these problems are rare, in a PUG they are an occupational hazard. I think the hazard is worth the feeling of achievement you get when you complete together what you cannot do alone. Not everyone gets that sense of achievement, for them the frustration factor is too high. That’s what designers and players need to work on to make grouping a success, more achievement and less frustration.
WoW's new(ish) grouping system, WAR's public quests and the CoH/AoC buddy system all point in the right direction.
No, I said it would be nice for a CHOICE right? LIke if i prefer games that are group friendly, it's ok with you if developers make those so I can choose to play them right?
Or are you saying I should have NO choice, and I HAVE to like your solo friendly game?
Why do you want to force me play solo friendly games? What's wrong with providing choices for players?
Why does it upset you if I have a choice?
If you want to play a solo friendly game, play a solo friendly game. If you want to play a group friendly game, play a group friendly game.
You think ONLY solo friendly games should be made and EVERYONE should play those or nothing at all?
That's seriously your idea of a "choice" forcing everyone to play the sort of game YOU like?
You do realize that's what you're doing right? "I like solo friendly games. Why can't you just play my solo friendly game and like it? I'll give you the CHOICE to play my solo friendly game!"
Yes, but what if I dont' have fun in solo friendly game, and I have fun in group friendly games?
Why does it upset you that a developer might make a game I find enjoyable?