What you're saying is that a subscriber can either get it for free with extra points they now get with their subscription or they can get it for free through in-game means. So basically DDO is an exampleof the benefits of adding the F2P component of the game. I'm just a bit at a loss over why you keep dodging the question regarding the standard subscription MMO practice of making new races and classes only available for a purchase price above and beyond the subscription price.
What part of the below confuses you?
In DDO, when P2P with subscription, the new class Monk was added at no additional charge or in game grind for subscribers. In DDO, when F2P hybrid, the new class Favored Soul was added and required being purchased in the cash shop or being unlocked by very long in game grind EVEN for VIP subscribers.
How is what Turbine did with their other P2P game gone hybrid F2P not fairly extrapolated to what will happen with LotRO when it goes F2p hybrid? Simply put, it is. In DDO now, as a VIP subscriber, you pay the same $$$ per month but do not get the same thing as you did under the old P2P system. Such will be the case in LotRO as well.
That would now be three times you seemed to have overlooked the question of which subscription MMOs offer free races and classes.
I am sorry you struggle with the obvious - TURBINE'S OTHER GAME (DDO) USING THIS F2P HYBRID MODEL SHOWS US WHAT I AM SAYING. BEFORE F2P NEW CLASSES WHERE INCLUDED WITHOUT EXTRA COST OR GRIND, AFTER F2P THE NEW CLASS WAS CASH SHOP OR UNLOCKED WITH LONG GRIND.
My god the obliviousness by the 'defenders' defies reason - to heck with what other games do look to Turbine's other F2P hybrid, it shows everything I am saying regarding this issue.
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.
The payment method makes this interesting too. In a traditional expansion pack (box or digital download) unless the game is very successful the item usually gets a discount after a short period. Breaking things up piecemeal or purchased only through an item shop content packs will probably pull in more revenues then traditional methods where the prices often get slashed to move sales. Plus buying items using fake currency (i.e. Turbine points) does a good job of disguising the actual costs of an item for the average consumer.
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.
That may be true, though I think it is only partly true in so far as some games provide plenty of content and other additions outside of expansions while others use expansions as you describe. EVE comes to mind as a very popular and successful MMO that doesn't go the paid expansion route and others add similar things in and out of expansions. But all that said, it is pretty silly to argue about 'other games' when we have a strong example from Turbine themselves with DDO. And in looking to DDO it is not at all a stretch to say that the game changes dramatically with this pay model change.
Yes, the subscription option is nice in terms of how most F2P games go but the idea that a sub now verse a sub under the F2P hybrid model is the same is patently ridiculous as the F2P changes alone (cash shop) will make deep changes to how things work because F2P requires the monetization of gameplay in a way never done in P2P games. In looking to how Turbine rolled this hybrid model out in DDO it is very fair to apply that to LotRO and in doing so it is safe to say that the nature of a subscription changes sharply in terms of previously being an all access under the old model but becoming little more than a pre-packaged deal in the new model with several gameplay relevant items and elements being outside said package and requiring either more money or a moderate to steep grind.
All I am saying here is that the idea that all you have to do under this new hybrid model is to buy a sub (VIP) and everything stays the same is bogus. A cash shop changes things, dramatically. This doesn't make DDO, LotRO, or Turbine evil or something - but it does change the nature of the game and how it is run and developed as it changes how you pay for it as a subscriber or otherwise - it has to for the F2P side to be viable.
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.
That may be true, though I think it is only partly true in so far as some games provide plenty of content and other additions outside of expansions while others use expansions as you describe. EVE comes to mind as a very popular and successful MMO that doesn't go the paid expansion route and others add similar things in and out of expansions. But all that said, it is pretty silly to argue about 'other games' when we have a strong example from Turbine themselves with DDO. And in looking to DDO it is not at all a stretch to say that the game changes dramatically with this pay model change.
Yes, the subscription option is nice in terms of how most F2P games go but the idea that a sub now verse a sub under the F2P hybrid model is the same is patently ridiculous as the F2P changes alone (cash shop) will make deep changes to how things work because F2P requires the monetization of gameplay in a way never done in P2P games. In looking to how Turbine rolled this hybrid model out in DDO it is very fair to apply that to LotRO and in doing so it is safe to say that the nature of a subscription changes sharply in terms of previously being an all access under the old model but becoming little more than a pre-packaged deal in the new model with several gameplay relevant items and elements being outside said package and requiring either more money or a moderate to steep grind.
All I am saying here is that the idea that all you have to do under this new hybrid model is to buy a sub (VIP) and everything stays the same is bogus. A cash shop changes things, dramatically. This doesn't make DDO, LotRO, or Turbine evil or something - but it does change the nature of the game and how it is run and developed as it changes how you pay for it as a subscriber or otherwise - it has to for the F2P side to be viable.
Well played and eloquently put. Sorry for ever implying that you were trolling.
The payment method makes this interesting too. In a traditional expansion pack (box or digital download) unless the game is very successful the item usually gets a discount after a short period. Breaking things up piecemeal or purchased only through an item shop content packs will probably pull in more revenues then traditional methods where the prices often get slashed to move sales. Plus buying items using fake currency (i.e. Turbine points) does a good job of disguising the actual costs of an item for the average consumer.
And this is the dirty little secret. the free part lowers barrier to entry so draws more eyes, some stick around and some of those will spend so they have to get more from the spenders to make it work and to pay for the non spenders. Moreover, as I have pointed out since revenue is tied to gameplay (i.e. is grinding that class or race unlock takes a short time or easily tolerated time then nobody would buy it so the devs have strong incentive to increase the grinds and slow progression to enitce people to buy things to avoid the grinds or speed them up.
Originally posted by zeowyrm
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by zeowyrm
As a defender of this hybrid payment model, I have to agree with the point you made. However, I think the point the other poster is making is:
In other, P2P games, they do not give classes/races for free. They're included with the purchase of an expansion, more often then not. Ultimately, they're saying that you always have to pay for these things, one way or another, regardless of P2P or F2P.
That may be true, though I think it is only partly true in so far as some games provide plenty of content and other additions outside of expansions while others use expansions as you describe. EVE comes to mind as a very popular and successful MMO that doesn't go the paid expansion route and others add similar things in and out of expansions. But all that said, it is pretty silly to argue about 'other games' when we have a strong example from Turbine themselves with DDO. And in looking to DDO it is not at all a stretch to say that the game changes dramatically with this pay model change.
Yes, the subscription option is nice in terms of how most F2P games go but the idea that a sub now verse a sub under the F2P hybrid model is the same is patently ridiculous as the F2P changes alone (cash shop) will make deep changes to how things work because F2P requires the monetization of gameplay in a way never done in P2P games. In looking to how Turbine rolled this hybrid model out in DDO it is very fair to apply that to LotRO and in doing so it is safe to say that the nature of a subscription changes sharply in terms of previously being an all access under the old model but becoming little more than a pre-packaged deal in the new model with several gameplay relevant items and elements being outside said package and requiring either more money or a moderate to steep grind.
All I am saying here is that the idea that all you have to do under this new hybrid model is to buy a sub (VIP) and everything stays the same is bogus. A cash shop changes things, dramatically. This doesn't make DDO, LotRO, or Turbine evil or something - but it does change the nature of the game and how it is run and developed as it changes how you pay for it as a subscriber or otherwise - it has to for the F2P side to be viable.
Well played and eloquently put. Sorry for ever implying that you were trolling.
1. I already said your assesment of how monk vs favoured soul plays out is correct, but you bring it out of proportion. If there had been 5 classes added for free in P2P and then 3 after that in F2P not free you would have a point. But we are talking about two classes total here, with such a small samplesize arguing that you see a trend is not a sound argument. I repeat, maybe the monk was always planned to be in the basegame, like the MDPS classes in Warhammer, while the favoured soul was always intended as a expansion class. Also maybe Turbine wanted to charge for the monk, but didnt have the necessary infrastructure yet? And since they where tanking it seems reasonable to release all the content they where holding back for an expansion for free. Hell with the buisness practices MMO devs use for all we know the monk already was done at release and was to be held back for an expansion(that never came).
2. Your whole argument now is that things that where free in P2P are not going to be free anymore in F2P, yet your whole logic chain is based upon a linear content progression. I.e if DDO had not gone F2P the Favoured soul would have been released for free. I say its a reasonable assumption that if DDO had not gone F2P the favoured soul would have never gotten released at all, since at the end of P2P service the game was already in maintenance mode.
3. Which brings me to my core point, i rather have 80% of 100% for free than 100% of 50%. Does that make sense? Probably not. What i mean is that LotRO was releasing less and less content(thats where the 50% come from), the time between book upgrades was growing, expansions released digitally instead of boxed, and core issues never adressed. The game was bleeding out, slowly but surely. So what use does it have to get everything for your 15$ a month, if that everything gets less and less as time goes on?
4. How much stuff really did get added to the store in DDO thats not included for VIPs and was free before? The books and 32 point unlocks have always required a grind, it was not increased. Afaik they only added one major item in over a year(your favoured soul class), which is easily paid for by your free point allotment. If your nonpartial you would have to admit that if you get 6k points a year for free, then they can add 6k points worth of stuff to the store per year while still allowing VIPs to get it basicly included with their subscription. And that annoys me a bit, people say the allotment is not enough, yet it easily covers everything thats not free anyway for subscribers.
So yeah dont get me wrong, im not one of those F2P hippies that cheer every game like that along, personally i never even played any F2P seriously. For example i would totally hate it if EvE Online went F2P with itemshop cause that game is doing fine as P2P. LotRO wasnt doing fine, it wasnt doing fine since MoM. If a publisher starts selling base game + 2 expansions + 30 days for 10$ thats not a sign of them doing fine, you dont even get Ultima online for that, which is 40$ as a new player.
1. I already said your assesment of how monk vs favoured soul plays out is correct, but you bring it out of proportion. If there had been 5 classes added for free in P2P and then 3 after that in F2P not free you would have a point. But we are talking about two classes total here, with such a small samplesize arguing that you see a trend is not a sound argument. I repeat, maybe the monk was always planned to be in the basegame, like the MDPS classes in Warhammer, while the favoured soul was always intended as a expansion class. Also maybe Turbine wanted to charge for the monk, but didnt have the necessary infrastructure yet? And since they where tanking it seems reasonable to release all the content they where holding back for an expansion for free. Hell with the buisness practices MMO devs use for all we know the monk already was done at release and was to be held back for an expansion(that never came).
Not only that but the favoured soul is the fourth total favor unlock in the game, the previous one being the 32 point build unlock. The difference to get from one to the other is 750 favor points going from 1750 to 2500. The previous tier unlock was at 1000 points, also a difference of 750 favor. By this example Turbine has been releasing favor upgrades approximately ever 750 favor points. By the time favoured soul was released most active vets would have had well over that amount of favor so the class unlock would have been immediate and free. Also for every 100 favor you earn in game turbine gives you 25 Turbine Points, so by the time you reach 2500 favor you will have 625 TP from that alone, not counting the once per server unlocks which would get you another 350 and put you at 975 TP. With that in mind if you didn't want to wait till you got all the way to 2500 favor you would be able to buy the favoured soul unlock with the free turbine points earned by the time you get to 1780 favor or just after the 3rd tier total favor unlock, and that's not even factoring in the monthly 500 TP stipend.
4. How much stuff really did get added to the store in DDO thats not included for VIPs and was free before? The books and 32 point unlocks have always required a grind, it was not increased. Afaik they only added one major item in over a year(your favoured soul class), which is easily paid for by your free point allotment. If your nonpartial you would have to admit that if you get 6k points a year for free, then they can add 6k points worth of stuff to the store per year while still allowing VIPs to get it basicly included with their subscription. And that annoys me a bit, people say the allotment is not enough, yet it easily covers everything thats not free anyway for subscribers.
95% of the items available in the DDO store are available in game to VIP's for free. Including the Loot and XP boost items. The only thing I found that is not available are the gold seal items and they are usually just longer lasting versions of commonly avaialbe items so really not that big of a deal.
So yeah dont get me wrong, im not one of those F2P hippies that cheer every game like that along, personally i never even played any F2P seriously. For example i would totally hate it if EvE Online went F2P with itemshop cause that game is doing fine as P2P. LotRO wasnt doing fine, it wasnt doing fine since MoM. If a publisher starts selling base game + 2 expansions + 30 days for 10$ thats not a sign of them doing fine, you dont even get Ultima online for that, which is 40$ as a new player.
1. I already said your assesment of how monk vs favoured soul plays out is correct, but you bring it out of proportion. If there had been 5 classes added for free in P2P and then 3 after that in F2P not free you would have a point. But we are talking about two classes total here, with such a small samplesize arguing that you see a trend is not a sound argument. I repeat, maybe the monk was always planned to be in the basegame, like the MDPS classes in Warhammer, while the favoured soul was always intended as a expansion class. Also maybe Turbine wanted to charge for the monk, but didnt have the necessary infrastructure yet? And since they where tanking it seems reasonable to release all the content they where holding back for an expansion for free. Hell with the buisness practices MMO devs use for all we know the monk already was done at release and was to be held back for an expansion(that never came).
I was just offering an example of how a sub then verse now is different as so many suggest it is not. You can excuse it or explain it or ignore it but the fact is the pre F2P an added class was included for subscribers and after F2P it was a cash shop purchase or very long grind away even for subscribers. That speaks to the false representation by Turbine and defenders of the model that a sub under hybrid is the same.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
2. Your whole argument now is that things that where free in P2P are not going to be free anymore in F2P, yet your whole logic chain is based upon a linear content progression. I.e if DDO had not gone F2P the Favoured soul would have been released for free. I say its a reasonable assumption that if DDO had not gone F2P the favoured soul would have never gotten released at all, since at the end of P2P service the game was already in maintenance mode.
It is simple - how this was before and how was it after - it speaks for itself. F2P has the reputation it has ofr a reason, because they nickel and dime and introduce grinds to stimulate cash shop purchase to ease said grinds, poiting out how DDO is now doing this is simply giving example to the generalization we all know is true for F2P.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
3. Which brings me to my core point, i rather have 80% of 100% for free than 100% of 50%. Does that make sense? Probably not. What i mean is that LotRO was releasing less and less content(thats where the 50% come from), the time between book upgrades was growing, expansions released digitally instead of boxed, and core issues never adressed. The game was bleeding out, slowly but surely. So what use does it have to get everything for your 15$ a month, if that everything gets less and less as time goes on?
I think the best answer to that is to point out that in the old model you could sub one month, get your unlimited access to the game and then walk away for a while until new stuff came out if that was an issue. But under the new model, and one reason for F2P, you are not paying for all access you are buying smaller pieces for higher cost albeit with no time limit. This is another reason ZF2P changes game development as they have incentive to develop to drive micro transactions rather than incentive to develop to drive overall interest. So once they make a new 'area' and people buy it they have little incentive to improve it or expand it as that area has already made is money, so they do other areas that can generate fresh sales and so on and so on. Same with consumables or gear or grind avoidance elements they sell - their interest is in you continually needing them to progress and have fun as opposed to the old model where their interest is in you having enough fun in your bought time (monthly sub) to buy another.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
4. How much stuff really did get added to the store in DDO thats not included for VIPs and was free before? The books and 32 point unlocks have always required a grind, it was not increased. Afaik they only added one major item in over a year(your favoured soul class), which is easily paid for by your free point allotment. If your nonpartial you would have to admit that if you get 6k points a year for free, then they can add 6k points worth of stuff to the store per year while still allowing VIPs to get it basicly included with their subscription. And that annoys me a bit, people say the allotment is not enough, yet it easily covers everything thats not free anyway for subscribers.
It isn't a matter of how much, it is a matter of the fact that some stuff was. Even if it is just the new class thing that is a substantial change and worthy of saying that as a subscriber you will be paying the same for less. Now couple those things, few or many as they may be, with the new elements that are introduced due to F2P (xp potions, grind avoidance stuff, gear, in quest resurrections, etc, etc, etc,) and you suddenly have lots of things that are useful, helpful, or even necessary that are not 'included' to subscribers. Yes, they give you 500 points with the sub but if you look at the pricing in the cash shop that is a token amount at best. And you have to take all this in the context that F2P, sub, or hybrid the devs now have motivation to steer content and gameplay in the direction of the cash shop stuff being more and more necessary as it is in their interest to stimulate sales, from VIPs and the freebie folks alike.
F2P works by getting more people in due to low barrier to entry, and then creating barriers and annoyances and hindrances that people can buy their way around. Sure, there is a range to how obvious this is and I am not suggesting Turbine is, or will be, on the worse end of the scale in this regard. However, they cannot give the game to anyone and make money from the few without charging more for the little bits they carve things up in to. Sure, the sub is a nice addition to F2P in terms of making it less suck but the real nasty part of F2P, the monetization of gameplay, is still in play whether you buy a sub or not and that changes dramatically not only the game but what you get for your $15 a month.
It comes down to this, and it really is undeniable. In P2P everyone has what they earn, or everyone is what they have done and no matter who you are the price is the same and there is no buying shortcuts or power or achievement. BUt in F2P, even Turbine's hybrid F2P model with the VIP subscription, this just isn't try. Many people buy success, achievement, and convenience and that fact degrades what you get as a subscribe or even as a player no matter what you pay and it introduces an incentive for the devs to design the game in such a way as to make need and want more and more pressing so that people spend more and more money. So whether or not you are a free player or a subscriber the fact of the matter is that while your subscription price stays the same the underlying game changes dramatically as it evolves to succeed with a model that allows success, achievement, and power (at least to some degree) to be bought. A sub to this kind of game is simply NOT the same as a sub in a game where everyone has full access or no access and perks and bonuses and other such helpful things cannot be bought, they must be earned.
So yeah dont get me wrong, im not one of those F2P hippies that cheer every game like that along, personally i never even played any F2P seriously. For example i would totally hate it if EvE Online went F2P with itemshop cause that game is doing fine as P2P. LotRO wasnt doing fine, it wasnt doing fine since MoM. If a publisher starts selling base game + 2 expansions + 30 days for 10$ thats not a sign of them doing fine, you dont even get Ultima online for that, which is 40$ as a new player.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that Lotro was some sort of unhealthy MMO. All you have to do is google "Turbine new MMO" and you will pull up articles where they stated they had invested over 20 Million on developing a new console MMO. Lotro could have been profitable and even afford the type of regular updates that they received in the beginning and with MOM. However, Turbine quite likely was using profits from all it's active MMO's and shifting over development staff to this new product. Even if Lotro was healthy and sustainable with regular expansions Turbine may be converting to this hybrid F2P model anyway to just increase profits. Going F2P isn't necessarily a sign that the game was facing immanent demise.
You also can't necessarily take the discount pricing as a sign of it not being healthy, since Lotro is trying to use cheaper initial costs to try and lure new players in. Games like EQ2 and UO don't give a damn about enticing players with lower costs and if you want to play with them they are the least unlikely to reduce either subscription or game costs.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
* Purchasers of the Mines of Moria™ expansion get access to the Mines of Moria region and content, premium classes (Rune-Keeper and Warden), legendary items feature, Tier 6 crafting feature, 2 extra character slots and a level cap of 60. Purchasers of the Siege of Mirkwood™ expansion get access to the Siege of Mirkwood region and content, a level cap of 65 and the Siege of Mirkwood skirmishes.
If you already paid for the stuff by buying the expansions & subbing, you will not need to buy it again. NOTHING changes for you. Complaining about future, nonexistant content that you have no idea wether or not will ever be in the game is pointless. Wether the game is F2P or P2P you still have to pay for it, expansions dont come free.
/close thread
QFT.
Also, the Free Content is free, and any future Paid Expansions, are just that, the same as Mines and Mirkwood, PAID EXPANSIONS. No difference there. and OP seemed to forget Subbers/Lifers get free points. So all this "New content that has to be bought on top of a sub" Is BS cause with the points given, this content is basically free for subbers/lifers.
So yeah dont get me wrong, im not one of those F2P hippies that cheer every game like that along, personally i never even played any F2P seriously. For example i would totally hate it if EvE Online went F2P with itemshop cause that game is doing fine as P2P. LotRO wasnt doing fine, it wasnt doing fine since MoM. If a publisher starts selling base game + 2 expansions + 30 days for 10$ thats not a sign of them doing fine, you dont even get Ultima online for that, which is 40$ as a new player.
I wouldn't necessarily assume that Lotro was some sort of unhealthy MMO. All you have to do is google "Turbine new MMO" and you will pull up articles where they stated they had invested over 20 Million on developing a new console MMO. Lotro could have been profitable and even afford the type of regular updates that they received in the beginning and with MOM. However, Turbine quite likely was using profits from all it's active MMO's and shifting over development staff to this new product. Even if Lotro was healthy and sustainable with regular expansions Turbine may be converting to this hybrid F2P model anyway to just increase profits. Going F2P isn't necessarily a sign that the game was facing immanent demise.
We dont know, i can just speak about what happened ingame, and it was a decline. Also we dont know the exact subscriberbase of LotRO but it was periously close to that of unsustainable MMOs like Warhammer that went into maintenance mode. It might very well have been at a point where it was still making money but didnt warrent extra investments like developing a real boxed expansion.
You also can't necessarily take the discount pricing as a sign of it not being healthy, since Lotro is trying to use cheaper initial costs to try and lure new players in. Games like EQ2 and UO don't give a damn about enticing players with lower costs and if you want to play with them they are the least unlikely to reduce either subscription or game costs.
But together with a slowly but surely waning subscriberbase its a sign.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
I understand all of it, i merely see it as a lesser evil in this case.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
In a way EVE is the worst cash shop of them all - they sell ISK. Granted it is not as in your face as most cash shops I find it entirely game breaking that in a game where ISK = power (or ISK and time = power) the fact that you can just plop down real money for ISK totally takes away the game's integrity.
* Purchasers of the Mines of Moria™ expansion get access to the Mines of Moria region and content, premium classes (Rune-Keeper and Warden), legendary items feature, Tier 6 crafting feature, 2 extra character slots and a level cap of 60. Purchasers of the Siege of Mirkwood™ expansion get access to the Siege of Mirkwood region and content, a level cap of 65 and the Siege of Mirkwood skirmishes.
If you already paid for the stuff by buying the expansions & subbing, you will not need to buy it again. NOTHING changes for you. Complaining about future, nonexistant content that you have no idea wether or not will ever be in the game is pointless. Wether the game is F2P or P2P you still have to pay for it, expansions dont come free.
/close thread
QFT.
Also, the Free Content is free, and any future Paid Expansions, are just that, the same as Mines and Mirkwood, PAID EXPANSIONS. No difference there. and OP seemed to forget Subbers/Lifers get free points. So all this "New content that has to be bought on top of a sub" Is BS cause with the points given, this content is basically free for subbers/lifers.
I just don't get this 'nothing changes for you' attitude, it is so patently and demonstrably false. The core game changes, subscriber or not - this is unavoidable. It is like paying to see a movie in a theater and watching said movie on ad supported TV - content is same but the business model totally changes the experience. F2P changes ANY game, it has to in order to work. Playing LotRO now you are playing a game where people buy access in 30 day time increments, period - in F2P they but regions, content, gear, stat bonuses, levelling bonuses, etc, etc, etc - this makes it an absolutely differnt game no matter how or what you pay. And because of this new pay model the game will change over time as the developers, understandably, design things to increase revenue. So the idea that if you sub then nothing changes is simply wrong, period.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
In a way EVE is the worst cash shop of them all - they sell ISK. Granted it is not as in your face as most cash shops I find it entirely game breaking that in a game where ISK = power (or ISK and time = power) the fact that you can just plop down real money for ISK totally takes away the game's integrity.
And again you show that you have no clue, ccp does not sell ISK. Players in the game trade GTC against ISK, are you honestly saying i couldnt find some guy in ANY P2P game out there that would fork me over some gold if bought him a GTC? CCP gains absolutely nothing from this, unless you count the people that couldnt afford gametime otherwise.
Just dont start with EvE, really, it has not the least bit to do with the situation we discuss here. Especially not with some rich country LotRO NA only servers. Eve only has one service worldwide and some of my best friends in that game came from countries where they earned less in a month than kids with a weekend job at MC D do in the U.S. And we bought them GTCs years before CCP every sanctioned it officially. The model CCP started for this people is as close to charity as you can get in this kind of buisness and had no effect on the games economy at all, since no ISK was created, it was only shifted around between willing participants.
I get it that if someone gets a ingame advantage with his RL wallet it hurts your epeen or ego or something, but what CCP did really helped some people, in real life, not some game. Just because your not born in a rich country doesnt mean you dont deserve to get the same kind of fun and distraction out of games as we do, and CCPs way is one of the few(only im aware of) ways where you can play a AAA MMO really completely free of charge and with no further costs at all.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
In a way EVE is the worst cash shop of them all - they sell ISK. Granted it is not as in your face as most cash shops I find it entirely game breaking that in a game where ISK = power (or ISK and time = power) the fact that you can just plop down real money for ISK totally takes away the game's integrity.
And again you show that you have no clue, ccp does not sell ISK.
It has nothing to do with epeen or other childish terms such as that, it has to do with game integrity. When players can buy achievement, success, or even just an easier path to these things the game loses integrity because the basic premise of an MMO, at least a P2P MMO, is that your character(s) is what your character has done and has earned is lost. So while a loser in his Mom's basement buying tons of leveling pots, maybe a full set of +2 times at character creation, or resurrections in dungeons to complete things that would have been a fail without the cash shop doesn't directly affect my ability to play through the game it does diminish the achievement of doing so and the enjoyment of the virtual space as people are able to buy, essentially, different rules by which to play.
Now we can debate this loss of integrity all day long, whether it is a big deal or not - preference may vary. But what is not debatable is that it is a real condition of a cash shop game and that even if the VIP sub for a hybrid DDO or LotRO yields you everything (and I have shown it doesn't) that a subscription under the old model does and even if said VIP subscription legitimately includes enough points to buy your way around all the new hurdles built in to the new F2P version of the game the reality is that the game itself is very, very different once a cash shop and F2P model is introduced. There is only one gameplay, and the F2P model dictates that they must monetize gameplay, carve it up in to small pieces, and sell said pieces for more than the whole in order to make money and coupled with that is the necessity that they leverage grinds and inconvenience to stimulate cash shop purchases. This is what changes the game and this is why, above and beyond what a sub does or doesn't include, that a F2P hybrid sub is simply not equal to a P2P sub in terms of what you get for your dollar.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
In a way EVE is the worst cash shop of them all - they sell ISK. Granted it is not as in your face as most cash shops I find it entirely game breaking that in a game where ISK = power (or ISK and time = power) ...
Really? Here's your chance to, first the first time in this entire thread, attempt to support any of your wild assumptions and doom-heralding proclamations with fact.
PLEX has been around since November of 2008.
CCP produces detailed Quarterly Economic Reports on the state of the game's economy.
The events and happenings in EVE Online are regularly covered by several major gaming sites.
Your claims are that
CCP sells ISK
It is a game breaking feature
You spout misinformation and when you're called on it you just say "ZOMG I can't believe you are so niave to think I am wrong!" Your main supporting item, the monk and drow, has been addressed time and again but you still pull that out as you example of how this is some sneaky underhanded deception from Turbine. In every branch of this discussion you have spouted misinformation and displayed a complete lack of understanding of the mechanics which you are so vehemently raising torch and pitchfork against. Worse, when presented with links, reference a dn data you actually reply with a "that's what they want you to believe" style answer.
Well, with ISK, you stepped into a topic right now that has endless public data regarding it. You have no excuse NOT to support your stance with data... unless, of course, your stance is entirely baseless, right?
Please explain how CCP sells ISK.
Please back up your claim that EVE's current system is game breaking.
Edit: You recently added this gem, so I'll include it as well:
"You can cage it anyway you want but the reality is you can start the game tommorow and without accomplishing a darn thing other than spending real money for virtual goods you can have all the ISK you want, and EVE is all about the ISK."
I beleive this is false and would like you to explain to me the advantage a 1-day old character has with , oh... say... 1 trillion ISK to his name, and how that advantage would be any different that having it handed down from your main.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Please back up your claim that EVE's current system is game breaking.
Easy - you go to CCP and buy the game time things (like a normal game time card but it is actually an in game item, a tradable in game item. You list said in game item on market and sell for in game currency, ISK. Walla, an officially sanctioned way to turn real world moeny in to in game coin. Fairly summarized by saying CCPs sells ISK.
What I said was broken in EVE is the game's integrity. I didn't say it broke the game, I acknowledge the analysis of the game's integrity is entirely personal but to me selling of a powerful resource for moeny, directly or indirectly, ruins any integrity the game has as pwoer is not necessarily something you play to achieve it can be something you spend to acheive. Now, if you want to debate whether CCP's clever way of selling game time (actual in game items) that players can list on in game market and sell of in game currency (ISK) is or is not fairly called CCP selling ISK let's do that elsewhere, personally I think it is a fair summary of the reality of how that system works to say you can buy ISK with real money.
Please back up your claim that EVE's current system is game breaking.
Easy - you go to CCP and buy the game time things (like a normal game time card but it is actually an in game item, a tradable in game item. You list said in game item on market and sell for in game currency, ISK. Walla, an officially sanctioned way to turn real world moeny in to in game coin. Fairly summarized by saying CCPs sells ISK.
What I said was broken in EVE is the game's integrity. I didn't say it broke the game, I acknowledge the analysis of the game's integrity is entirely personal but to me selling of a powerful resource for moeny, directly or indirectly, ruins any integrity the game has as pwoer is not necessarily something you play to achieve it can be something you spend to acheive. Now, if you want to debate whether CCP's clever way of selling game time (actual in game items) that players can list on in game market and sell of in game currency (ISK) is or is not fairly called CCP selling ISK let's do that elsewhere, personally I think it is a fair summary of the reality of how that system works to say you can buy ISK with real money.
They are still not selling ISK, even if they help players brokering these deals. All it does is prevent scamming and excessive ingame GM petitions which where a huge problem before.
Besides advantage is a shitty argument. So what about high level chars helping out lowlevel chars? Or mains supporting twinks? Its the same advantage, infact it often is a much greater one. If DDO is any example the items in the store will be crap compared to highend crafted gear, having a buddy/main supplying you with critted one time recipe items, now THATs an advantage. You do not seriously think the items in the store will actually compete with true highend gear do you? Not even pure F2P games like Allods or Runes of magic dare to go that far, much less a hybrid game with a actual subscriberbase.
They are still not selling ISK, even if they help players brokering these deals. All it does is prevent scamming and excessive ingame GM petitions which where a huge problem before.
They are selling an in game item (GTC) that is intended, in whole or in part, to be sold for ISK - so it is fair to say that you can legally buy ISK in EVE for real money. The whole point of them coming up with these cards was to facilitate, officially, a way to deal with gold farming and get it under control, as well as the earning game play time thing. I am not saying it is a terrible idea, though I absolutely dislike the legal and santioned way of turning real life money in to ISK, especially in a game where economic power is so much of game power.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Besides advantage is a shitty argument. So what about high level chars helping out lowlevel chars? Or mains supporting twinks? Its the same advantage, infact it often is a much greater one.
High levels helping lows, most all games restrict this in some way (i.e. reduced XP or some such thing) - in DDO a group member more than a few levels above a quest means reduced or no XP for all, LotRO has a similar system. As for twinking lowbies, certainly an issue but since that stuff was at least earned it is not the same as someone just plopping down the CC and buying power, gameplay advantages, and/or grind avoidence.
Originally posted by Rocketeer
If DDO is any example the items in the store will be crap compared to highend crafted gear, having a buddy/main supplying you with critted one time recipe items, now THATs an advantage. You do not seriously think the items in the store will actually compete with true highend gear do you? Not even pure F2P games like Allods or Runes of magic dare to go that far, much less a hybrid game with a actual subscriberbase.
Crap? So you are saying that a new character being able to plop down a couple hundred bucks for a complete set of +2 tomes is crap? Depending on the build that is upwards of a 15% to 20% boost in stats in a game that is all about the stats. Same with things like unlocking the Fav Soul. Sure you, as a VIP subscriber, can grind the favor but the whole poitn of how things are different subbing in F2P verse in P2P is that you have these grind or buy, inconvenience or buy, annoynace or buy situations over and over - this is the heart of F2P. And what about buying in dungeon resserections - a major gameplay advantgage in a game wiht no auto healing or mana restoration over time and with very limited heals (at fixed points in quests and largely on time use) - so as long as you are willing to drop real cash any quest is doing at any difficulty without following the same rules as everyone else (those rules being you got the health and mana you start with and whatever rest shrines there are to get through the quest so use it well or recall and do it over).
Besides advantage is a shitty argument. So what about high level chars helping out lowlevel chars? Or mains supporting twinks? Its the same advantage, infact it often is a much greater one.
High levels helping lows, most all games restrict this in some way (i.e. reduced XP or some such thing) - in DDO a group member more than a few levels above a quest means reduced or no XP for all, LotRO has a similar system. As for twinking lowbies, certainly an issue but since that stuff was at least earned it is not the same as someone just plopping down the CC and buying power, gameplay advantages, and/or grind avoidence.
No one is talking about buying powerleveling, grind avoidance or gameplay advances. We're talking about giving 600 mill ISK to a low level character. How is PLEX any different from getting it from your main, a guildie or any other character? How is it any different from handing a fistful of gold from your LOTRO main to your alt?
Buying power? Gameplay advantages? I'm sorry, AgtSmith, but it really doesn't seem like you understand how PLEX or even EVE Online works.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If DDO is any example the items in the store will be crap compared to highend crafted gear, having a buddy/main supplying you with critted one time recipe items, now THATs an advantage. You do not seriously think the items in the store will actually compete with true highend gear do you? Not even pure F2P games like Allods or Runes of magic dare to go that far, much less a hybrid game with a actual subscriberbase.
Crap? So you are saying that a new character being able to plop down a couple hundred bucks for a complete set of +2 tomes is crap? Depending on the build that is upwards of a 15% to 20% boost in stats in a game that is all about the stats. Same with things like unlocking the Fav Soul. Sure you, as a VIP subscriber, can grind the favor but the whole poitn of how things are different subbing in F2P verse in P2P is that you have these grind or buy, inconvenience or buy, annoynace or buy situations over and over - this is the heart of F2P. And what about buying in dungeon resserections - a major gameplay advantgage in a game wiht no auto healing or mana restoration over time and with very limited heals (at fixed points in quests and largely on time use) - so as long as you are willing to drop real cash any quest is doing at any difficulty without following the same rules as everyone else (those rules being you got the health and mana you start with and whatever rest shrines there are to get through the quest so use it well or recall and do it over).
This is a compeltely different argument. Your issue here is now about how someone can have more than you. Is there a PvP component to DDO? What is this "major gameplay advantage" that someone has over you? It seems like we are finally getting to the crux of why you really are against F2P.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one is talking about buying powerleveling, grind avoidance or gameplay advances. We're talking about giving 600 mill ISK to a low level character. How is PLEX any different from getting it from your main, a guildie or any other character? How is it any different from handing a fistful of gold from your LOTRO main to your alt?
Buying power? Gameplay advantages? I'm sorry, AgtSmith, but it really doesn't seem like you understand how PLEX or even EVE Online works.
Man, never ceases to amaze me how many people will argue that the Sun is not hot. EVE let's you, officially, turn real money in to game money. This is an issue I think and it doesn't matter if they do it directly or by letting you buy with real money an in game item that can be traded/sold in game - the fact of the matter is that you can start EVE tomorrow and without playing at all you can acquire all the resources (ISK) you want using real money.
If you cannot see the different between leveling up an character and earning coin and gear that you then hand down to a new character you make and starting a new character that is plump with ISK because you paid real world money to CCP for in game items you can sell for ISK then there is no point in discussing it with you because you are just going to deny and excuse reality to avoid whatever negative opinion said reality hold for some. I think turning real world money in to game items or game currency is an abysmal practice no better than the gold farming stuff people nearly universally hate. The fact that CCP or Turbine, in essence, become the gold farming company is irrelevant to how distasteful it is for a game, how destructive it is for a game's integrity, and since the devs control how the game develops it is actually far worse as they will inevitably steer gameplay through development to people needing to convert real world money to virtual goods/coin more and more over time.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
This is a compeltely different argument. Your issue here is now about how someone can have more than you. Is there a PvP component to DDO? What is this "major gameplay advantage" that someone has over you? It seems like we are finally getting to the crux of why you really are against F2P.
It is not a new argument, it is all part of the original argument I am just responding to points and issue people raise.
That said, PvP is in both games but it is a small part of the game. But that doesn't matter, and any MMO player of experience knows as much. Besides the game integrity issue there is an issue of balance. If people can buy power and you have to earn power or just go without that extra power altogether then how hard does the game get for you playing the same content without said purchased power? What about development - if they are selling class then what is to keep them from making the new sellable classes better than the included ones - that would just make good business sense to be honest. So it is many issue that arise from loss of the game's integrity, from monetizing gameplay elements, and from selling items/power/convenience and the broader point I have been getting at through this entire thread is that a sub to a game with these issues (i.e. VIP under F2P hybrid) is nowhere near the 'same' as a sub to the old model.
Again, your argument completely ignores how microtransaction games work.
80% or so of the players will not be spending money on the game. That 80% is, to a good degree, content for each other and, more importantly, the paying 20%. The game has to be fun for that 80% otherwise they leave, rsulting in the paying 20% leaving as well.
Once you understand the above you will understand how your argument that the game will be made harder to force the 80% to spend money simply is illogical at best.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Again, your argument completely ignores how microtransaction games work.
80% or so of the players will not be spending money on the game. That 80% is, to a good degree, content for each other and, more importantly, the paying 20%. The game has to be fun for that 80% otherwise they leave, rsulting in the paying 20% leaving as well.
Once you understand the above you will understand how your argument that the game will be made harder to force the 80% to spend money simply is illogical at best.
I disagree that the many who pay little or nothing are thriving, happy fans of the game - I think the bulk of them are cheap bastards who just want something for nothing. Sure, the game cannot stink on ice but that is a far cry from saying they love the game as the only love it to the extent that it is free, which I think fairly means little.
But yeah, I get that the few pay for the many - that is an issue I have with the model. DEVs are incentivized to design and develop for the few to the detriment of the many (whether those many are free players, nearly free players, or even VIP sub types). In the end the DEVs are making money from the paying people and that is what will drive their decisions and development and with F2P cash shops in play that will, over time, get more and more attention and design to make it more successful.
At best, there is a balance that needs to be struck between fun for the free folks and missing stuff for the people willing to pay as that is how they make money - people buying what is missing, what is restricted, or what is inconvenience (buying ways around that). In the end though, I have no doubt whatsoever that the balance will tilt and tilt and tilt towards the missing stuff side as that is what makes money for the devs, and I think the general reputation of F2P games as nickel and diming operations bears this out.
And back to the broader topic understand what I am saying. I am not saying that in terms of F2P games the hybrid F2P subscription (VIP) is not a good value, it most certianly is a good way to play a F2P game in terms of value. What I am saying is that comparing a subscription in F2P hybrid (VIP) to a subscription to a traditional P2P subscription they are not the same (hybrid sub has limits and the game is fundementally differnet) and that they are not comporable in value either.
And back to the broader topic understand what I am saying. I am not saying that in terms of F2P games the hybrid F2P subscription (VIP) is not a good value, it most certianly is a good way to play a F2P game in terms of value. What I am saying is that comparing a subscription in F2P hybrid (VIP) to a subscription to a traditional P2P subscription they are not the same (hybrid sub has limits and the game is fundementally differnet) and that they are not comporable in value either.
I agree. They are not comparable at all. With VIP and microtransactions you have much more freedom to play how you want and the ability to puchase extras that normally would not be an option under a subscription model.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And back to the broader topic understand what I am saying. I am not saying that in terms of F2P games the hybrid F2P subscription (VIP) is not a good value, it most certianly is a good way to play a F2P game in terms of value. What I am saying is that comparing a subscription in F2P hybrid (VIP) to a subscription to a traditional P2P subscription they are not the same (hybrid sub has limits and the game is fundementally differnet) and that they are not comporable in value either.
I agree. They are not comparable at all. With VIP and microtransactions you have much more freedom to play how you want and the ability to puchase extras that normally would not be an option under a subscription model.
With traditional subs, there is no need to purchase "extras" so the ability to do so is mute. Content is provided without additional purchase for a reason, you are already paying for it.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Comments
The payment method makes this interesting too. In a traditional expansion pack (box or digital download) unless the game is very successful the item usually gets a discount after a short period. Breaking things up piecemeal or purchased only through an item shop content packs will probably pull in more revenues then traditional methods where the prices often get slashed to move sales. Plus buying items using fake currency (i.e. Turbine points) does a good job of disguising the actual costs of an item for the average consumer.
That may be true, though I think it is only partly true in so far as some games provide plenty of content and other additions outside of expansions while others use expansions as you describe. EVE comes to mind as a very popular and successful MMO that doesn't go the paid expansion route and others add similar things in and out of expansions. But all that said, it is pretty silly to argue about 'other games' when we have a strong example from Turbine themselves with DDO. And in looking to DDO it is not at all a stretch to say that the game changes dramatically with this pay model change.
Yes, the subscription option is nice in terms of how most F2P games go but the idea that a sub now verse a sub under the F2P hybrid model is the same is patently ridiculous as the F2P changes alone (cash shop) will make deep changes to how things work because F2P requires the monetization of gameplay in a way never done in P2P games. In looking to how Turbine rolled this hybrid model out in DDO it is very fair to apply that to LotRO and in doing so it is safe to say that the nature of a subscription changes sharply in terms of previously being an all access under the old model but becoming little more than a pre-packaged deal in the new model with several gameplay relevant items and elements being outside said package and requiring either more money or a moderate to steep grind.
All I am saying here is that the idea that all you have to do under this new hybrid model is to buy a sub (VIP) and everything stays the same is bogus. A cash shop changes things, dramatically. This doesn't make DDO, LotRO, or Turbine evil or something - but it does change the nature of the game and how it is run and developed as it changes how you pay for it as a subscriber or otherwise - it has to for the F2P side to be viable.
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Well played and eloquently put. Sorry for ever implying that you were trolling.
And this is the dirty little secret. the free part lowers barrier to entry so draws more eyes, some stick around and some of those will spend so they have to get more from the spenders to make it work and to pay for the non spenders. Moreover, as I have pointed out since revenue is tied to gameplay (i.e. is grinding that class or race unlock takes a short time or easily tolerated time then nobody would buy it so the devs have strong incentive to increase the grinds and slow progression to enitce people to buy things to avoid the grinds or speed them up.
I appreciate that, thanks. ;-)
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@AgtSmith
Your overlooking a couple points:
1. I already said your assesment of how monk vs favoured soul plays out is correct, but you bring it out of proportion. If there had been 5 classes added for free in P2P and then 3 after that in F2P not free you would have a point. But we are talking about two classes total here, with such a small samplesize arguing that you see a trend is not a sound argument. I repeat, maybe the monk was always planned to be in the basegame, like the MDPS classes in Warhammer, while the favoured soul was always intended as a expansion class. Also maybe Turbine wanted to charge for the monk, but didnt have the necessary infrastructure yet? And since they where tanking it seems reasonable to release all the content they where holding back for an expansion for free. Hell with the buisness practices MMO devs use for all we know the monk already was done at release and was to be held back for an expansion(that never came).
2. Your whole argument now is that things that where free in P2P are not going to be free anymore in F2P, yet your whole logic chain is based upon a linear content progression. I.e if DDO had not gone F2P the Favoured soul would have been released for free. I say its a reasonable assumption that if DDO had not gone F2P the favoured soul would have never gotten released at all, since at the end of P2P service the game was already in maintenance mode.
3. Which brings me to my core point, i rather have 80% of 100% for free than 100% of 50%. Does that make sense? Probably not. What i mean is that LotRO was releasing less and less content(thats where the 50% come from), the time between book upgrades was growing, expansions released digitally instead of boxed, and core issues never adressed. The game was bleeding out, slowly but surely. So what use does it have to get everything for your 15$ a month, if that everything gets less and less as time goes on?
4. How much stuff really did get added to the store in DDO thats not included for VIPs and was free before? The books and 32 point unlocks have always required a grind, it was not increased. Afaik they only added one major item in over a year(your favoured soul class), which is easily paid for by your free point allotment. If your nonpartial you would have to admit that if you get 6k points a year for free, then they can add 6k points worth of stuff to the store per year while still allowing VIPs to get it basicly included with their subscription. And that annoys me a bit, people say the allotment is not enough, yet it easily covers everything thats not free anyway for subscribers.
So yeah dont get me wrong, im not one of those F2P hippies that cheer every game like that along, personally i never even played any F2P seriously. For example i would totally hate it if EvE Online went F2P with itemshop cause that game is doing fine as P2P. LotRO wasnt doing fine, it wasnt doing fine since MoM. If a publisher starts selling base game + 2 expansions + 30 days for 10$ thats not a sign of them doing fine, you dont even get Ultima online for that, which is 40$ as a new player.
I was just offering an example of how a sub then verse now is different as so many suggest it is not. You can excuse it or explain it or ignore it but the fact is the pre F2P an added class was included for subscribers and after F2P it was a cash shop purchase or very long grind away even for subscribers. That speaks to the false representation by Turbine and defenders of the model that a sub under hybrid is the same.
It is simple - how this was before and how was it after - it speaks for itself. F2P has the reputation it has ofr a reason, because they nickel and dime and introduce grinds to stimulate cash shop purchase to ease said grinds, poiting out how DDO is now doing this is simply giving example to the generalization we all know is true for F2P.
I think the best answer to that is to point out that in the old model you could sub one month, get your unlimited access to the game and then walk away for a while until new stuff came out if that was an issue. But under the new model, and one reason for F2P, you are not paying for all access you are buying smaller pieces for higher cost albeit with no time limit. This is another reason ZF2P changes game development as they have incentive to develop to drive micro transactions rather than incentive to develop to drive overall interest. So once they make a new 'area' and people buy it they have little incentive to improve it or expand it as that area has already made is money, so they do other areas that can generate fresh sales and so on and so on. Same with consumables or gear or grind avoidance elements they sell - their interest is in you continually needing them to progress and have fun as opposed to the old model where their interest is in you having enough fun in your bought time (monthly sub) to buy another.
It isn't a matter of how much, it is a matter of the fact that some stuff was. Even if it is just the new class thing that is a substantial change and worthy of saying that as a subscriber you will be paying the same for less. Now couple those things, few or many as they may be, with the new elements that are introduced due to F2P (xp potions, grind avoidance stuff, gear, in quest resurrections, etc, etc, etc,) and you suddenly have lots of things that are useful, helpful, or even necessary that are not 'included' to subscribers. Yes, they give you 500 points with the sub but if you look at the pricing in the cash shop that is a token amount at best. And you have to take all this in the context that F2P, sub, or hybrid the devs now have motivation to steer content and gameplay in the direction of the cash shop stuff being more and more necessary as it is in their interest to stimulate sales, from VIPs and the freebie folks alike.
F2P works by getting more people in due to low barrier to entry, and then creating barriers and annoyances and hindrances that people can buy their way around. Sure, there is a range to how obvious this is and I am not suggesting Turbine is, or will be, on the worse end of the scale in this regard. However, they cannot give the game to anyone and make money from the few without charging more for the little bits they carve things up in to. Sure, the sub is a nice addition to F2P in terms of making it less suck but the real nasty part of F2P, the monetization of gameplay, is still in play whether you buy a sub or not and that changes dramatically not only the game but what you get for your $15 a month.
It comes down to this, and it really is undeniable. In P2P everyone has what they earn, or everyone is what they have done and no matter who you are the price is the same and there is no buying shortcuts or power or achievement. BUt in F2P, even Turbine's hybrid F2P model with the VIP subscription, this just isn't try. Many people buy success, achievement, and convenience and that fact degrades what you get as a subscribe or even as a player no matter what you pay and it introduces an incentive for the devs to design the game in such a way as to make need and want more and more pressing so that people spend more and more money. So whether or not you are a free player or a subscriber the fact of the matter is that while your subscription price stays the same the underlying game changes dramatically as it evolves to succeed with a model that allows success, achievement, and power (at least to some degree) to be bought. A sub to this kind of game is simply NOT the same as a sub in a game where everyone has full access or no access and perks and bonuses and other such helpful things cannot be bought, they must be earned.
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I wouldn't necessarily assume that Lotro was some sort of unhealthy MMO. All you have to do is google "Turbine new MMO" and you will pull up articles where they stated they had invested over 20 Million on developing a new console MMO. Lotro could have been profitable and even afford the type of regular updates that they received in the beginning and with MOM. However, Turbine quite likely was using profits from all it's active MMO's and shifting over development staff to this new product. Even if Lotro was healthy and sustainable with regular expansions Turbine may be converting to this hybrid F2P model anyway to just increase profits. Going F2P isn't necessarily a sign that the game was facing immanent demise.
You also can't necessarily take the discount pricing as a sign of it not being healthy, since Lotro is trying to use cheaper initial costs to try and lure new players in. Games like EQ2 and UO don't give a damn about enticing players with lower costs and if you want to play with them they are the least unlikely to reduce either subscription or game costs.
Admitting that you would hate it if EVE (your idea of a healthy MMO) were to go with a cash shop as unpalatable means that you do understand some of the distaste that MMO gamers have with the idea.
QFT.
Also, the Free Content is free, and any future Paid Expansions, are just that, the same as Mines and Mirkwood, PAID EXPANSIONS. No difference there. and OP seemed to forget Subbers/Lifers get free points. So all this "New content that has to be bought on top of a sub" Is BS cause with the points given, this content is basically free for subbers/lifers.
Total MMOs played: 274|Enjoyed: 9. >:|
In a way EVE is the worst cash shop of them all - they sell ISK. Granted it is not as in your face as most cash shops I find it entirely game breaking that in a game where ISK = power (or ISK and time = power) the fact that you can just plop down real money for ISK totally takes away the game's integrity.
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I just don't get this 'nothing changes for you' attitude, it is so patently and demonstrably false. The core game changes, subscriber or not - this is unavoidable. It is like paying to see a movie in a theater and watching said movie on ad supported TV - content is same but the business model totally changes the experience. F2P changes ANY game, it has to in order to work. Playing LotRO now you are playing a game where people buy access in 30 day time increments, period - in F2P they but regions, content, gear, stat bonuses, levelling bonuses, etc, etc, etc - this makes it an absolutely differnt game no matter how or what you pay. And because of this new pay model the game will change over time as the developers, understandably, design things to increase revenue. So the idea that if you sub then nothing changes is simply wrong, period.
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And again you show that you have no clue, ccp does not sell ISK. Players in the game trade GTC against ISK, are you honestly saying i couldnt find some guy in ANY P2P game out there that would fork me over some gold if bought him a GTC? CCP gains absolutely nothing from this, unless you count the people that couldnt afford gametime otherwise.
Just dont start with EvE, really, it has not the least bit to do with the situation we discuss here. Especially not with some rich country LotRO NA only servers. Eve only has one service worldwide and some of my best friends in that game came from countries where they earned less in a month than kids with a weekend job at MC D do in the U.S. And we bought them GTCs years before CCP every sanctioned it officially. The model CCP started for this people is as close to charity as you can get in this kind of buisness and had no effect on the games economy at all, since no ISK was created, it was only shifted around between willing participants.
I get it that if someone gets a ingame advantage with his RL wallet it hurts your epeen or ego or something, but what CCP did really helped some people, in real life, not some game. Just because your not born in a rich country doesnt mean you dont deserve to get the same kind of fun and distraction out of games as we do, and CCPs way is one of the few(only im aware of) ways where you can play a AAA MMO really completely free of charge and with no further costs at all.
It has nothing to do with epeen or other childish terms such as that, it has to do with game integrity. When players can buy achievement, success, or even just an easier path to these things the game loses integrity because the basic premise of an MMO, at least a P2P MMO, is that your character(s) is what your character has done and has earned is lost. So while a loser in his Mom's basement buying tons of leveling pots, maybe a full set of +2 times at character creation, or resurrections in dungeons to complete things that would have been a fail without the cash shop doesn't directly affect my ability to play through the game it does diminish the achievement of doing so and the enjoyment of the virtual space as people are able to buy, essentially, different rules by which to play.
Now we can debate this loss of integrity all day long, whether it is a big deal or not - preference may vary. But what is not debatable is that it is a real condition of a cash shop game and that even if the VIP sub for a hybrid DDO or LotRO yields you everything (and I have shown it doesn't) that a subscription under the old model does and even if said VIP subscription legitimately includes enough points to buy your way around all the new hurdles built in to the new F2P version of the game the reality is that the game itself is very, very different once a cash shop and F2P model is introduced. There is only one gameplay, and the F2P model dictates that they must monetize gameplay, carve it up in to small pieces, and sell said pieces for more than the whole in order to make money and coupled with that is the necessity that they leverage grinds and inconvenience to stimulate cash shop purchases. This is what changes the game and this is why, above and beyond what a sub does or doesn't include, that a F2P hybrid sub is simply not equal to a P2P sub in terms of what you get for your dollar.
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Really? Here's your chance to, first the first time in this entire thread, attempt to support any of your wild assumptions and doom-heralding proclamations with fact.
PLEX has been around since November of 2008.
CCP produces detailed Quarterly Economic Reports on the state of the game's economy.
The events and happenings in EVE Online are regularly covered by several major gaming sites.
Your claims are that
CCP sells ISK
It is a game breaking feature
You spout misinformation and when you're called on it you just say "ZOMG I can't believe you are so niave to think I am wrong!" Your main supporting item, the monk and drow, has been addressed time and again but you still pull that out as you example of how this is some sneaky underhanded deception from Turbine. In every branch of this discussion you have spouted misinformation and displayed a complete lack of understanding of the mechanics which you are so vehemently raising torch and pitchfork against. Worse, when presented with links, reference a dn data you actually reply with a "that's what they want you to believe" style answer.
Well, with ISK, you stepped into a topic right now that has endless public data regarding it. You have no excuse NOT to support your stance with data... unless, of course, your stance is entirely baseless, right?
Please explain how CCP sells ISK.
Please back up your claim that EVE's current system is game breaking.
Edit: You recently added this gem, so I'll include it as well:
"You can cage it anyway you want but the reality is you can start the game tommorow and without accomplishing a darn thing other than spending real money for virtual goods you can have all the ISK you want, and EVE is all about the ISK."
I beleive this is false and would like you to explain to me the advantage a 1-day old character has with , oh... say... 1 trillion ISK to his name, and how that advantage would be any different that having it handed down from your main.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Easy - you go to CCP and buy the game time things (like a normal game time card but it is actually an in game item, a tradable in game item. You list said in game item on market and sell for in game currency, ISK. Walla, an officially sanctioned way to turn real world moeny in to in game coin. Fairly summarized by saying CCPs sells ISK.
Just to show this is true:
CCP GTC Partners (one site says "Actual average SELL price in Timecode Bazaar : 602.00 ML. ISK")
CCP GTC Forum for selling timecodes (official forum section for GTC sales)
What I said was broken in EVE is the game's integrity. I didn't say it broke the game, I acknowledge the analysis of the game's integrity is entirely personal but to me selling of a powerful resource for moeny, directly or indirectly, ruins any integrity the game has as pwoer is not necessarily something you play to achieve it can be something you spend to acheive. Now, if you want to debate whether CCP's clever way of selling game time (actual in game items) that players can list on in game market and sell of in game currency (ISK) is or is not fairly called CCP selling ISK let's do that elsewhere, personally I think it is a fair summary of the reality of how that system works to say you can buy ISK with real money.
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They are still not selling ISK, even if they help players brokering these deals. All it does is prevent scamming and excessive ingame GM petitions which where a huge problem before.
Besides advantage is a shitty argument. So what about high level chars helping out lowlevel chars? Or mains supporting twinks? Its the same advantage, infact it often is a much greater one. If DDO is any example the items in the store will be crap compared to highend crafted gear, having a buddy/main supplying you with critted one time recipe items, now THATs an advantage. You do not seriously think the items in the store will actually compete with true highend gear do you? Not even pure F2P games like Allods or Runes of magic dare to go that far, much less a hybrid game with a actual subscriberbase.
They are selling an in game item (GTC) that is intended, in whole or in part, to be sold for ISK - so it is fair to say that you can legally buy ISK in EVE for real money. The whole point of them coming up with these cards was to facilitate, officially, a way to deal with gold farming and get it under control, as well as the earning game play time thing. I am not saying it is a terrible idea, though I absolutely dislike the legal and santioned way of turning real life money in to ISK, especially in a game where economic power is so much of game power.
High levels helping lows, most all games restrict this in some way (i.e. reduced XP or some such thing) - in DDO a group member more than a few levels above a quest means reduced or no XP for all, LotRO has a similar system. As for twinking lowbies, certainly an issue but since that stuff was at least earned it is not the same as someone just plopping down the CC and buying power, gameplay advantages, and/or grind avoidence.
Crap? So you are saying that a new character being able to plop down a couple hundred bucks for a complete set of +2 tomes is crap? Depending on the build that is upwards of a 15% to 20% boost in stats in a game that is all about the stats. Same with things like unlocking the Fav Soul. Sure you, as a VIP subscriber, can grind the favor but the whole poitn of how things are different subbing in F2P verse in P2P is that you have these grind or buy, inconvenience or buy, annoynace or buy situations over and over - this is the heart of F2P. And what about buying in dungeon resserections - a major gameplay advantgage in a game wiht no auto healing or mana restoration over time and with very limited heals (at fixed points in quests and largely on time use) - so as long as you are willing to drop real cash any quest is doing at any difficulty without following the same rules as everyone else (those rules being you got the health and mana you start with and whatever rest shrines there are to get through the quest so use it well or recall and do it over).
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No one is talking about buying powerleveling, grind avoidance or gameplay advances. We're talking about giving 600 mill ISK to a low level character. How is PLEX any different from getting it from your main, a guildie or any other character? How is it any different from handing a fistful of gold from your LOTRO main to your alt?
Buying power? Gameplay advantages? I'm sorry, AgtSmith, but it really doesn't seem like you understand how PLEX or even EVE Online works.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is a compeltely different argument. Your issue here is now about how someone can have more than you. Is there a PvP component to DDO? What is this "major gameplay advantage" that someone has over you? It seems like we are finally getting to the crux of why you really are against F2P.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man, never ceases to amaze me how many people will argue that the Sun is not hot. EVE let's you, officially, turn real money in to game money. This is an issue I think and it doesn't matter if they do it directly or by letting you buy with real money an in game item that can be traded/sold in game - the fact of the matter is that you can start EVE tomorrow and without playing at all you can acquire all the resources (ISK) you want using real money.
If you cannot see the different between leveling up an character and earning coin and gear that you then hand down to a new character you make and starting a new character that is plump with ISK because you paid real world money to CCP for in game items you can sell for ISK then there is no point in discussing it with you because you are just going to deny and excuse reality to avoid whatever negative opinion said reality hold for some. I think turning real world money in to game items or game currency is an abysmal practice no better than the gold farming stuff people nearly universally hate. The fact that CCP or Turbine, in essence, become the gold farming company is irrelevant to how distasteful it is for a game, how destructive it is for a game's integrity, and since the devs control how the game develops it is actually far worse as they will inevitably steer gameplay through development to people needing to convert real world money to virtual goods/coin more and more over time.
It is not a new argument, it is all part of the original argument I am just responding to points and issue people raise.
That said, PvP is in both games but it is a small part of the game. But that doesn't matter, and any MMO player of experience knows as much. Besides the game integrity issue there is an issue of balance. If people can buy power and you have to earn power or just go without that extra power altogether then how hard does the game get for you playing the same content without said purchased power? What about development - if they are selling class then what is to keep them from making the new sellable classes better than the included ones - that would just make good business sense to be honest. So it is many issue that arise from loss of the game's integrity, from monetizing gameplay elements, and from selling items/power/convenience and the broader point I have been getting at through this entire thread is that a sub to a game with these issues (i.e. VIP under F2P hybrid) is nowhere near the 'same' as a sub to the old model.
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Again, your argument completely ignores how microtransaction games work.
80% or so of the players will not be spending money on the game. That 80% is, to a good degree, content for each other and, more importantly, the paying 20%. The game has to be fun for that 80% otherwise they leave, rsulting in the paying 20% leaving as well.
Once you understand the above you will understand how your argument that the game will be made harder to force the 80% to spend money simply is illogical at best.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I disagree that the many who pay little or nothing are thriving, happy fans of the game - I think the bulk of them are cheap bastards who just want something for nothing. Sure, the game cannot stink on ice but that is a far cry from saying they love the game as the only love it to the extent that it is free, which I think fairly means little.
But yeah, I get that the few pay for the many - that is an issue I have with the model. DEVs are incentivized to design and develop for the few to the detriment of the many (whether those many are free players, nearly free players, or even VIP sub types). In the end the DEVs are making money from the paying people and that is what will drive their decisions and development and with F2P cash shops in play that will, over time, get more and more attention and design to make it more successful.
At best, there is a balance that needs to be struck between fun for the free folks and missing stuff for the people willing to pay as that is how they make money - people buying what is missing, what is restricted, or what is inconvenience (buying ways around that). In the end though, I have no doubt whatsoever that the balance will tilt and tilt and tilt towards the missing stuff side as that is what makes money for the devs, and I think the general reputation of F2P games as nickel and diming operations bears this out.
And back to the broader topic understand what I am saying. I am not saying that in terms of F2P games the hybrid F2P subscription (VIP) is not a good value, it most certianly is a good way to play a F2P game in terms of value. What I am saying is that comparing a subscription in F2P hybrid (VIP) to a subscription to a traditional P2P subscription they are not the same (hybrid sub has limits and the game is fundementally differnet) and that they are not comporable in value either.
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I agree. They are not comparable at all. With VIP and microtransactions you have much more freedom to play how you want and the ability to puchase extras that normally would not be an option under a subscription model.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
With traditional subs, there is no need to purchase "extras" so the ability to do so is mute. Content is provided without additional purchase for a reason, you are already paying for it.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.