can you point out a single thing in the Premium player column that is different......thought not.
I only spent the whole original post and thread pointing out how it is different, sorry you are blind to reality. BUt go ahead, ignore how DDO is selling stuff that prior to F2P was free to subscribers, ignore how DDO and all F2P monetize gameplay and carve it up in to little pieces that you must by to avoid ever increasing grinds and inconveniences, not to mention ouright disadvantages.
Once again I'll point out that DDO VIP's are not required to buy anything to get full access to the game. All adventures, all classes and all items that are in the store are available in game without spending a cent in the DDO store. Even the xp and loot boosters are available through npc turn-ins.
Turbine's F2P model is vastly different from other F2P models. I've given you ample proof your arguments are invalid yet still you persist in trying to argue them. I've even gone so far as re-subbing to DDO to become VIP (though that was also due to the 1000 TP a month offer from june-august that they have on right now as well) to specifically prove that VIP's are not restricted.
For clarities sake I'll repeat what DDO VIP's have access to just by paying the sub fee:
ALL adventure areas, Monk class INCLUDED, Warforged race included, Drow, 32 point builds, Veteran characters and Favoured Soul class are available as unlocks just like they are for everyone else including F2P players (much easier to get with VIP though as you have access to al adventures at all levels). ALL consumables available in DDO shop are available ingame though some are more rare than others.
All of your arguments have been PROVEN, as in with PROOF, to be false so are you still going to maintain your position or are you finally going to listen to reason?
I already pointed out how you were wrong about DDO. VIP's get open access to ALL adventures, they get access to all classes including monk (and favored soul with 2500 favor just like anyone) plus the 500 TP a month to spend on stuff if they want. The reason they have loot potions is because the majority of loot in the game is random so the really the loot boost is a nice little buff, but doesn't really unbalance the game as youre still just as likely to get something you don't want as something you do. So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
So they get access to all classes, except the new class added since going F20 - gee, you are right - that really shows me to be wrong. I mean before F2P all players got all class just for paying the sub, but after F2P even subscribers need to buy a new class in cash shop or earn it through an incredible in game grind (by comparison unlocking Drow race was in game grind of 400 favor, post F2P unlocking Fav Soul is 2500 favor). Man, I am so spreading lies and misinformation - saying things previously included would be monitized and sold in cash shop (classes like Fav Soul, rare items like Tomes, etc) and what kind of crazy exageration am I putting forth saying the grinds would increase (like going from 400 favor to get Drow before F2P to 2500 to get Fav Soul). I am so unreasonable pointing out the truth, what was I thinking.
Originally posted by Minsc
So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
Yeah, Turbine's hybrid F2P model is different, I do not deny that. But it is different in the same way that a street hooker and a call girl are different, or maybe the same way any hooker and a stripper are different. Both are whores of gameplay monetizing actual gameplay (in game convenience and advantage) for revenue rather than monetizing access over time as the old models do. You can defend the stripper as not being like the hooker all you want but both suffer the same flaw and are not trustowrthy for the same reasons.
You're also forgetting the 1750 point unlock of 32 point builds which was also in before F2P, or the other FACTION REWARDS that have been in since pretty much the original launch of the game.
Favoured soul is a FACTION REWARD, DROW is a FACTION REWARD, Extra inventory bags are a FACTION REWARD, extra bank tabs are a FACTION REWARD. These are just some obvious examples of FACTION REWARDs that are unlocked whenever you get a certain amount of favour with a particular FACTION in the game and I'm sure they won't be the last ones that Turbine adds to the game as they are a REWARD for players who have been playing the game for a long time. If Turbine wants to offer shortcuts to these optional items for people to buy I could really care less as it doesn't effect my game in the slightest.
LOTRO already has FACTION REWARDs in deeply ingrained in the game mechanics so I'd imagine we'll see some of these things in the LOTRO store as well for people to buy if they want. It doesn't change the fact that these items are available to be had in game without spending money also.
I already pointed out how you were wrong about DDO. VIP's get open access to ALL adventures, they get access to all classes including monk (and favored soul with 2500 favor just like anyone) plus the 500 TP a month to spend on stuff if they want. The reason they have loot potions is because the majority of loot in the game is random so the really the loot boost is a nice little buff, but doesn't really unbalance the game as youre still just as likely to get something you don't want as something you do. So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
So they get access to all classes, except the new class added since going F20 - gee, you are right - that really shows me to be wrong. I mean before F2P all players got all class just for paying the sub, but after F2P even subscribers need to buy a new class in cash shop or earn it through an incredible in game grind (by comparison unlocking Drow race was in game grind of 400 favor, post F2P unlocking Fav Soul is 2500 favor). Man, I am so spreading lies and misinformation - saying things previously included would be monitized and sold in cash shop (classes like Fav Soul, rare items like Tomes, etc) and what kind of crazy exageration am I putting forth saying the grinds would increase (like going from 400 favor to get Drow before F2P to 2500 to get Fav Soul). I am so unreasonable pointing out the truth, what was I thinking.
Originally posted by Minsc
So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
Yeah, Turbine's hybrid F2P model is different, I do not deny that. But it is different in the same way that a street hooker and a call girl are different, or maybe the same way any hooker and a stripper are different. Both are whores of gameplay monetizing actual gameplay (in game convenience and advantage) for revenue rather than monetizing access over time as the old models do. You can defend the stripper as not being like the hooker all you want but both suffer the same flaw and are not trustowrthy for the same reasons.
While the facts your presenting are right, turbine is still within the genre standards. Paying for a new Class is normal even among P2P games. To bring this example to LotRO, even lifetimers had to pay for warden and RK. The question is not wether you have to pay for those things, but wether the price is reasonable. It was always a blurry line between free book upgrades and nonfree expansions, but new races classes have almost always been in the later.
But even you have to admit that VIP does include all content in DDO, and the books you mention can still be aquired ingame and are traded freely on the AH for reasonable prices.
Please, if you are going to defend something at least defend what it is and not a glossed over version. DDO's VIP do not get full access, period. They have to either buy or grind things that where previously included for the same sub price - this is fact. As I said, under the old P2P model you get a new class either included or as a minor 400 favor unlock, under F2P a new class is available ONLY by cash shop or by an extreme 2500 favor grind. If you cannot acknowledge that the change there is exactly what I am warning about then you are naive and challenge in terms of rational though. Argue if you wish that you don't mind said change but enough with pretending it is the same, it is not. This kind of change, from included or included within normal gameplay to not included and available by cash shop pruchase long grind is evident in DDO in many ways and it is becoming more and more evident over time.
Please, if you are going to defend something at least defend what it is and not a glossed over version. DDO's VIP do not get full access, period. They have to either buy or grind things that where previously included for the same sub price - this is fact. As I said, under the old P2P model you get a new class either included or as a minor 400 favor unlock (drow was always a favor unlock), under F2P a new class is available ONLY by cash shop or by an extreme 2500 favor grind (monk is available to all VIP's without any grind because it is considered a base class in 3rd Ed. Favoured Soul is more of a prestige class, hence the favor unlock). If you cannot acknowledge that the change there is exactly what I am warning about then you are naive and challenge in terms of rational though. Argue if you wish that you don't mind said change but enough with pretending it is the same, it is not. This kind of change, from included or included within normal gameplay to not included and available by cash shop pruchase long grind is evident in DDO in many ways and it is becoming more and more evident over time.
Oh please, 2500 favor is not hard to get when you've been playing the game since launch. Hell my main that I had from back when I was P2P has almost 1800 and I haven't done any of the content past level 14-15. When I was playing the game it was the highest favor you could achieve at the time and the 32 point characters were the reward unlocked. Now that they've added in so much more content it makes sense that they would add in higher favor rewards.
In fact this link: http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Favor& shows the exact structure of the favor rewards. This has been in the game since long before they were considering F2P and shows that F2P had nothing to do with the favor required to unlock the favored soul class.
Once again I'm providing facts as proof while you just continue to repeat the same weak argument. It's much the same as sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALALALALALA just so you don't have to admit that you are wrong.
Oh please, 2500 favor is not hard to get when you've been playing the game since launch.
Well, I stand corrected - going from getting a class by trivial in game action of earning 400 favor to getting said class by paying in the cash shop or as you said playing the game since launch to get 1800 (4 years now, btw).
The facts are the facts ...
Under old P2P system the 'unlock' class was 400 favor.
Under the F2P system the new 'unlock' class is 2500 favor (an increase of over 500%, in a favor system of diminishing returns).
Yeah, tell me again how crazy I am suggesting things previously included will go cash shop or crazy grind to get F2P and VIPs alike to buy them. I mean what am I think, a 500% increase in the unlock requirement under the new model is nothing.
Also I went through my DDO store and to buy all unlocks (like I was a VIP) it would cost me about $400 worth of TP. I only included adventure packs, 32 point build, warforged, drow, and the rest of the premium content like that. I didn't include standard consumables like boosters, recoveries or anything else because I figure those could be paid for through game play. That does include 1 +2 Tome to get a main character up to speed. It doesn't include a reincarnation token because I'm not sure how much that's needed, but I know that people buy them because it gives the player a huge advantage.
That about says it all. $400 for stuff that was either previously included in the box+sub or readily available through normal gameplay. Yeah, nothing changing - free is good - no nickel and diming going on.
Oh please, 2500 favor is not hard to get when you've been playing the game since launch.
Well, I stand corrected - going from getting a class by trivial in game action of earning 400 favor to getting said class by paying in the cash shop or as you said playing the game since launch to get 1800 (4 years now, btw).
The facts are the facts ...
Under old P2P system the 'unlock' class was 400 favor.
Under the F2P system the new 'unlock' class is 2500 favor (an increase of over 500%, in a favor system of diminishing returns).
Yeah, tell me again how crazy I am suggesting things previously included will go cash shop or crazy grind to get F2P and VIPs alike to buy them. I mean what am I think, a 500% increase in the unlock requirement under the new model is nothing.
I never said I was playing since launch (though I did play at launch). I said that anyone who HAS been playing since launch would easily have 2500 favor by now or more, and at the time when I had maxed favor there were many others who did. Actually with the total amount of favor in game now many long time players probably have almost double that much.
Also the first unlock was the Drow RACE at 400 total favor, the second unlock was Veteran characters (start at level 4) at 1000 favor, third onlock was 32 point build/free +2 tome at 1750 favor and fourth unlock is favoured soul at 2500 favor. So total is 400-1000-1750-2500 or 400/600/750/750.
That's not a jump of 2100 points it's a jump of 750 over the previous tiers favor reward. ALL 4 of these favor rewards are available for unlock in the DDO shop and all 4 are OPTIONAL and NONE of them are gamebreaking.
I never said I was playing since launch (though I did play at launch). I said that anyone who HAS been playing since launch would easily have 2500 favor by now or more, and at the time when I had maxed favor there were many others who did. Actually with the total amount of favor in game now many long time players probably have almost double that much.
Also the first unlock was the Drow RACE at 400 total favor, the second unlock was Veteran characters (start at level 4) at 1000 favor, third onlock was 32 point build/free +2 tome at 1750 favor and fourth unlock is favoured soul at 2500 favor. So total is 400-1000-1750-2500 or 400/600/750/750.
That's not a jump of 2100 points it's a jump of 750 over the previous tiers favor reward. ALL 4 of these favor rewards are available for unlock in the DDO shop and all 4 are OPTIONAL and NONE of them are gamebreaking.
So how am I wrong in stating that under P2P DDOs added class (Monk) was available to subscribers at no extra cost and with a nominal in game unlock (400 favor) but in comparison the first class added under F2P is on the cash shop (for more points than is included in VIP sub btw) or available at a unlock of +500%? Simple, I am not wrong. Apples to apples, new class then to new class now - 500% increase in the in game way to unlock it - welcome to the F2P model.
Under old P2P system the 'unlock' class was 400 favor.
Under the F2P system the new 'unlock' class is 2500 favor (an increase of over 500%, in a favor system of diminishing returns).
Yeah, tell me again how crazy I am suggesting things previously included will go cash shop or crazy grind to get F2P and VIPs alike to buy them. I mean what am I think, a 500% increase in the unlock requirement under the new model is nothing.
You may be confusing the classes AgtSmith:
- Under the old & new system 400 favor unlocks the Drow class/race
- Under the system 2500 favor unlocks the Favored Soul class
At no point did 400 favor unlock anything but the Drow so you can't really compare the Drow's unlock number with the Favored Soul unlock number. They were always different with FvS always being higher.
Nothing I would spend money on. Will be interesting to see the rest.
Check out htis thread on the main forums for an interesting discussion on how the current subscribers feel about it.
Also I went through my DDO store and to buy all unlocks (like I was a VIP) it would cost me about $400 worth of TP. I only included adventure packs, 32 point build, warforged, drow, and the rest of the premium content like that. I didn't include standard consumables like boosters, recoveries or anything else because I figure those could be paid for through game play. That does include 1 +2 Tome to get a main character up to speed. It doesn't include a reincarnation token because I'm not sure how much that's needed, but I know that people buy them because it gives the player a huge advantage.
edit: You know after visiting their forums I forgot how much better their forum software is than almost anywhere else. Using the forums here or at EQ2 is almost painful by comparison.
You should remove things like the drow, vet chars, 32point builds and the extra bank and bag slots as they are easily unlocked through questing and since you are unlocking adventure areas you could cut down on almost all of that stuff except maybe warforged race and monk class.
I never said I was playing since launch (though I did play at launch). I said that anyone who HAS been playing since launch would easily have 2500 favor by now or more, and at the time when I had maxed favor there were many others who did. Actually with the total amount of favor in game now many long time players probably have almost double that much.
Also the first unlock was the Drow RACE at 400 total favor, the second unlock was Veteran characters (start at level 4) at 1000 favor, third onlock was 32 point build/free +2 tome at 1750 favor and fourth unlock is favoured soul at 2500 favor. So total is 400-1000-1750-2500 or 400/600/750/750.
That's not a jump of 2100 points it's a jump of 750 over the previous tiers favor reward. ALL 4 of these favor rewards are available for unlock in the DDO shop and all 4 are OPTIONAL and NONE of them are gamebreaking.
So how am I wrong in stating that under P2P DDOs added class (Monk) was available to subscribers at no extra cost and with a nominal in game unlock (400 favor) but in comparison the first class added under F2P is on the cash shop (for more points than is included in VIP sub btw) or available at a unlock of +500%? Simple, I am not wrong. Apples to apples, new class then to new class now - 500% increase in the in game way to unlock it - welcome to the F2P model.
I will correct myself - I was confusing the unlock for Drow (a race with point bonuses) to the Monk class. The Monk class was dded to the game at no charge to any subscriber (not in expansion, it was included to anyone with a sub or re-subbing). SO my comparions then to now is even more start.
- Then (old subscription model): New class is included for subscribers
- Now (F2P hybrid model): New class has to be bought in cash shop (more points than come with a monthly sub) or you have an extreme grind to unlock.
That type of change is evident in many ways and over time, as the F2P model becomes more 'accepted' it will get worse and worse.
Originally posted by Nebless
Originally posted by AgtSmith
The facts are the facts ...
Under old P2P system the 'unlock' class was 400 favor.
Under the F2P system the new 'unlock' class is 2500 favor (an increase of over 500%, in a favor system of diminishing returns).
Yeah, tell me again how crazy I am suggesting things previously included will go cash shop or crazy grind to get F2P and VIPs alike to buy them. I mean what am I think, a 500% increase in the unlock requirement under the new model is nothing.
You may be confusing the classes AgtSmith:
- Under the old & new system 400 favor unlocks the Drow class/race
- Under the system 2500 favor unlocks the Favored Soul class
At no point did 400 favor unlock anything but the Drow so you can't really compare the Drow's unlock number with the Favored Soul unlock number. They were always different with FvS always being higher.
Yes, you are correct in my error - favor unlocked a race not a class under the old way the class was free, whereas no a new class costs everyone, subscribers and free players (either loooong grind or cash shop money). This about sums up my whole point - old system you got things for free than now will cost you even as a subscriber, or you can look forward to massive grinds if you want it for free - even as a subscriber.
There is little need to look further than that - in old subscriber system you got the new class for free with no in game grind, under new model you get it only if you buy it in cash shop or go through a rather lengthy grind. Such is the difference between F2P (hybrid or otherwise), even as a subscriber, and the old P2P model.
Subscription AND a cash shop is simply ridiculous. It's like EQ2. It should either be one or the other but never both. Turbine's giving a really bad name to F2P with this greedy business decision. They were doing fine with subscription based gameplay, so why would they switch over in the first place? Oh because they noticed how much money they were draining out of DDO players and realized that this new genre of pay type (yes this is neither F2P or P2P in my eyes.. IT'S BOTH) was putting another porche in the CEO's garage. I love how they come off like "oh we just think it will attract more players and it's all about the community". This really sounds like i'm trolling right now so I'm gonna stop I just don't like what their doing though.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Nothing I would spend money on. Will be interesting to see the rest.
Check out htis thread on the main forums for an interesting discussion on how the current subscribers feel about it.
Also I went through my DDO store and to buy all unlocks (like I was a VIP) it would cost me about $400 worth of TP. I only included adventure packs, 32 point build, warforged, drow, and the rest of the premium content like that. I didn't include standard consumables like boosters, recoveries or anything else because I figure those could be paid for through game play. That does include 1 +2 Tome to get a main character up to speed. It doesn't include a reincarnation token because I'm not sure how much that's needed, but I know that people buy them because it gives the player a huge advantage.
edit: You know after visiting their forums I forgot how much better their forum software is than almost anywhere else. Using the forums here or at EQ2 is almost painful by comparison.
It seems like it is a mixed bag but mostly positive.
I do however agree with this statement:
KenR:
This right here illustrates what I really hate about F2P. Deeding is part of the game that is so boring for some people that they are willing to pay Turbine to not play their game. That's right for only $4.50 you don't have to play Lotro for an hour.
How messed up is that? Were not paying to play good content we are paying to not play bad content. Seriously, think about that for a minute...
I don't like the idea of having game play that one can pay to bypass. All game play should at least be highly entertaining at best and not be to sluggish at worst.
As for me, I am a current subscriber and in the end I just dont' care about this shop as it is now. I'll make a better decision after it has been out for 6 months.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Nothing I would spend money on. Will be interesting to see the rest.
Check out htis thread on the main forums for an interesting discussion on how the current subscribers feel about it.
Also I went through my DDO store and to buy all unlocks (like I was a VIP) it would cost me about $400 worth of TP. I only included adventure packs, 32 point build, warforged, drow, and the rest of the premium content like that. I didn't include standard consumables like boosters, recoveries or anything else because I figure those could be paid for through game play. That does include 1 +2 Tome to get a main character up to speed. It doesn't include a reincarnation token because I'm not sure how much that's needed, but I know that people buy them because it gives the player a huge advantage.
edit: You know after visiting their forums I forgot how much better their forum software is than almost anywhere else. Using the forums here or at EQ2 is almost painful by comparison.
It seems like it is a mixed bag but mostly positive.
I do however agree with this statement:
KenR:
This right here illustrates what I really hate about F2P. Deeding is part of the game that is so boring for some people that they are willing to pay Turbine to not play their game. That's right for only $4.50 you don't have to play Lotro for an hour.
How messed up is that? Were not paying to play good content we are paying to not play bad content. Seriously, think about that for a minute...
I don't like the idea of having game play that one can pay to bypass. All game play should at least be highly entertaining at best and not be to sluggish at worst.
As for me, I am a current subscriber and in the end I just dont' care about this shop as it is now. I'll make a better decision after it has been out for 6 months.
I think this is the problem with F2P, the developers have a clear incentive to design such game elements that people will want to pay to bypass or accelerate them.
Look, I am not saying that Turbine's hybrid model is the worst thing ever, nor am I saying that it is the equivelent of the typical F2P cash shop game where you pay to ungimp yourself or just slug along for 'free'. But this much is true, the hybrid model introdcues the same core mechanics that has corrupted F2P and given it a reputation that is, largely, well earned. The hybrid model is the camel's nose under the tent and while it may start out all fine and dandy over time, and with acceptence, the F2P part of it will corrupt the rest. Maybe that is a ways off, who knows - I don't think it took DDO long to start selling outright advantages (tomes, in quest reserections, classes) and I don't think it will take long in LotRO - but more than those two games the conern I am trying to give voice to is what happens to the genre if gamers do not reject this move to F2P now. If we do not reject it then once they get their nose under the tent and the other choices go away the tiers will includes less and cost more and the grinds you want to avoid will become more plentiful and the sub, if it stays at all, will include less and less. The only thing keeping F2P honest now is the negative image people have of F2P - the Turbine hybrid model may in fact be less an issue than typical F2P but once people accept the hybrid they are just a step from accepting the full on cash shop game and the old sub model will no longer be around to keep things honest.
I never said I was playing since launch (though I did play at launch). I said that anyone who HAS been playing since launch would easily have 2500 favor by now or more, and at the time when I had maxed favor there were many others who did. Actually with the total amount of favor in game now many long time players probably have almost double that much.
Also the first unlock was the Drow RACE at 400 total favor, the second unlock was Veteran characters (start at level 4) at 1000 favor, third onlock was 32 point build/free +2 tome at 1750 favor and fourth unlock is favoured soul at 2500 favor. So total is 400-1000-1750-2500 or 400/600/750/750.
That's not a jump of 2100 points it's a jump of 750 over the previous tiers favor reward. ALL 4 of these favor rewards are available for unlock in the DDO shop and all 4 are OPTIONAL and NONE of them are gamebreaking.
So how am I wrong in stating that under P2P DDOs added class (Monk) was available to subscribers at no extra cost and with a nominal in game unlock (400 favor) but in comparison the first class added under F2P is on the cash shop (for more points than is included in VIP sub btw) or available at a unlock of +500%? Simple, I am not wrong. Apples to apples, new class then to new class now - 500% increase in the in game way to unlock it - welcome to the F2P model.
Monk and Druid were both classes that they wanted to have in on launch but werent able to, Monk finally made it in and they are still working on Druid. As I said before these are both core classes, base archetypes that all other hybrid and prestige classes are based on. You really don't seem to grasp the concept of classes and races in D&D. You're acting as if the Favoured Soul class is some uber badass class that's better than all the others hands down and can solo epic dungeons all by itself while hopping around on one leg and squacking like a chicken. It's just a class. Personally I think the 32 point build unlock is a much bigger deal than some class that is a fighter/cleric hybrid. You also predictable glossed over the fact that I demonstrated that the favor point difference to get from the 3rd tier favor unlock to the 4th tier is exactly the same, but then your argument was completely void due to the fact that you thought the 400 point unlock was the Monk in the first place.
You keep trying to make it look like they did this on purpose when that is clearly not the case. The total favor unlocks were the game long before F2P was on their radar, what did you just expect them to stop addiing favor unlocks when they went F2P? They have already stated that they are releasing the half-orc race in game soon so I figure they will add that in as lets say a 3250 favor unlock. Anyone who's been a longtime sub in the game will easily have that favor already so they'll get the unlock on day one while the impatient or lazy can just pay to get it without earning the favor.
The bottom line is this. You're trying to claim that turbine purposefully made the favoured soul unlockable at 2500 favor in order to force people to buy it instead of grind for it, you're only argument is that the Monk class was made freely available without having to unlock. My counterargument is that they were just following along with thier already established precident of adding unlocks at specific levels of Total Favor which I backed up by facts and evidence supporting it. The fact that the unlock was a class is irrelevent it could have been another race it doesn't matter same difference as far as game mechanics are concerned.
On one final note I'll make a prediction on some of the future races/classes that they have been planning on introducing and you can too and we'll see who's right.
My prediction: Druid class and Half-Elf race added free for VIP's and Half-Orc becores the next favor unlock. Anyone want to bet against me?
The bottom line is this. You're trying to claim that turbine purposefully made the favoured soul unlockable at 2500 favor in order to force people to buy it instead of grind for it, you're only argument is that the Monk class was made freely available without having to unlock.
You actually are arguing that the Favored Soul going in to cash shop and having a 2500 favor unlock is not calculated to try to get people, VIPs and others, to buy with extra cash? So it is just a coincendence that the cost in points is more than one months alotment as a VIP and the fact that the previous class added when P2P was included but this one was cash shop or large grind? Come on, don't be naive.
Originally posted by Minsc
My counterargument is that they were just following along with thier already established precident of adding unlocks at specific levels of Total Favor which I backed up by facts and evidence supporting it. The fact that the unlock was a class is irrelevent it could have been another race it doesn't matter same difference as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Established precedent? You mean like how they handled the last class added to the game, Monk. OK, sure - let's compare precedent. Monk was added at no additional cost and available without purchase of an expansion and without unlocking of any kind when the game was subscription based. Compare that to how Favored Soul was handled once the game was F2P - it could only be bought in the cash shop (conveninetly at a cost of more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points) or unlocked with a massive favor grind (said grind being 500% higher than the race that was added in P2P with a favor unlock of 400).
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind.
Can you list some of these MMOs where you got free classes and races added? In most MMOs they are part of an expansion that costs extra.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The bottom line is this. You're trying to claim that turbine purposefully made the favoured soul unlockable at 2500 favor in order to force people to buy it instead of grind for it, you're only argument is that the Monk class was made freely available without having to unlock.
You actually are arguing that the Favored Soul going in to cash shop and having a 2500 favor unlock is not calculated to try to get people, VIPs and others, to buy with extra cash? So it is just a coincendence that the cost in points is more than one months alotment as a VIP and the fact that the previous class added when P2P was included but this one was cash shop or large grind? Come on, don't be naive.
Originally posted by Minsc
My counterargument is that they were just following along with thier already established precident of adding unlocks at specific levels of Total Favor which I backed up by facts and evidence supporting it. The fact that the unlock was a class is irrelevent it could have been another race it doesn't matter same difference as far as game mechanics are concerned.
Established precedent? You mean like how they handled the last class added to the game, Monk. OK, sure - let's compare precedent. Monk was added at no additional cost and available without purchase of an expansion and without unlocking of any kind when the game was subscription based. Compare that to how Favored Soul was handled once the game was F2P - it could only be bought in the cash shop (conveninetly at a cost of more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points) or unlocked with a massive favor grind (said grind being 500% higher than the race that was added in P2P with a favor unlock of 400).
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
WOW...every time I point out that between the 400 point drow unlock and the 2500 point favoured soul unlock there are TWO OTHER favor unlocks. Both are relevent to the discussion as BOTH of them are related to characters. You just will not even acknowledge them because it completely invalidates your argument. Unlocking 32 point character builds is a FAR bigger deal than unlocking another class because it applies to all future characters that you make. Adding those 4 extra stat points is significant. That's like 4 +1 stat tomes or 2 +2 stat tomes for free. AND on top of that at the same time you also get a free +2 stat tome of your choice. Who gives a shit about a character class that is far more important. Of course you'll still just ignore all mention of those because "oh noes turbine makes you grind for a class but they didn't before"
At everyone crying like babies about Turbines decision.
STFU already! Last time I checked the gamming industry isn't a democracy and in the case of LOTRO you don't get a vote or voice.
WHY? Because DDO casted its vote already and money talks. BTW to the OP, lifers are subscribers so shut up about it.
Im so sick and tired of hearing people complain. Ive played nearly every subscripition based game as have many of the people on these forums, I have also played a few FTP. The difference is quality. Quality of gamplay quality of game design quality of the game engine . FTP as a base idea for a games starting payment model, always leads to poorer quality. In LOTRO however its the opposite. FFS if you all weren't so unaware of who you are as people and could balance your lives and wallets then the announcment of LOTRO going FTP wouldn't scare you abit.
All i hear is" blablabla pay to win". The sooner everyone realizes that life isn't fair and people with money have more libertys than people with out it, the sooner i'll be able to sit down at mmorpg.com and not see a thread relating to how many tears joe blow has cried over X game going FTP and him being at a dissadvantage because he can't hold a job over his current MMO addiction.
Don't most of you realize that the minute you enter the game you are at a dissadvantage, because someone else is already a higher level, or the fact that some rich guy could be buying up all the gold from gold sellers.
The reality of this whole situation is that MMO gammers are tired of getting burned by sub-par games and gamming companys and all they are looking for now is someone to blame. But guess what? TURBINE is not a sub par company nor is LOTRO a sub par game. Theres a reason everyone can't stand Turbines decision, you wanna know why.......cause you don't run the goddamn company and its not your choice. So what. Don't play lotro. Who gives a flying F*CK. I for one don't . Why because I don't even play the game. If you do decide to play lotro then good for you, hopefully you will be a loyal subscriber.
Just know that these people who do purchase these items from LOTRO's in game store are sending money back to Turbine at almost a 100% profit, which inturn allows for more updates and expansions. Whats wrong with going above and beyond and supporting a game or company more than the standard 15$ a month? Its my damn money.
For those with their panties in a twist over this whle subject I'll leave you wiht 2 words of advice.
JUST SUBSCRIBE...................................... whoah , i can subscribe stilll ?.... NOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
At everyone crying like babies about Turbines decision.
STFU already! Last time I checked the gamming industry isn't a democracy and in the case of LOTRO you don't get a vote or voice.
WHY? Because DDO casted its vote already and money talks. BTW to the OP, lifers are subscribers so shut up about it.
Im so sick and tired of hearing people complain. Ive played nearly every subscripition based game as have many of the people on these forums, I have also played a few FTP. The difference is quality. Quality of gamplay quality of game design quality of the game engine . FTP as a base idea for a games starting payment model, always leads to poorer quality. In LOTRO however its the opposite. FFS if you all weren't so unaware of who you are as people and could balance your lives and wallets then the announcment of LOTRO going FTP wouldn't scare you abit.
All i hear is" blablabla pay to win". The sooner everyone realizes that life isn't fair and people with money have more libertys than people with out it, the sooner i'll be able to sit down at mmorpg.com and not see a thread relating to how many tears joe blow has cried over X game going FTP and him being at a dissadvantage because he can't hold a job over his current MMO addiction.
Don't most of you realize that the minute you enter the game you are at a dissadvantage, because someone else is already a higher level, or the fact that some rich guy could be buying up all the gold from gold sellers.
The reality of this whole situation is that MMO gammers are tired of getting burned by sub-par games and gamming companys and all they are looking for now is someone to blame. But guess what? TURBINE is not a sub par company nor is LOTRO a sub par game. Theres a reason everyone can't stand Turbines decision, you wanna know why.......cause you don't run the goddamn company and its not your choice. So what. Don't play lotro. Who gives a flying F*CK. I for one don't . Why because I don't even play the game. If you do decide to play lotro then good for you, hopefully you will be a loyal subscriber.
Just know that these people who do purchase these items from LOTRO's in game store are sending money back to Turbine at almost a 100% profit, which inturn allows for more updates and expansions. Whats wrong with going above and beyond and supporting a game or company more than the standard 15$ a month? Its my damn money.
For those with their panties in a twist over this whle subject I'll leave you wiht 2 words of advice.
JUST SUBSCRIBE...................................... whoah , i can subscribe stilll ?.... NOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
Flame away asshats.
Hey, you'll soon be categorized as a shill, I'm sure. Just like anyone trying to make sense to haters
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
Thats not a precedent. For all we know they might have promised to have the monk class in the base game and just released it late. You also cant ignore the situation DDO was in at that time, they were on the brink of collapse and desperate to keep players giving free stuff like a whole class might have been just a marketing push to keep subscribers. Maybe they where even required to release it free of charge because its a base class in D&D 3.5 and WotC pushed them. We simply dont know why they did what they did. What we do know is that its unusual.
Speaking about unusual, why do we have to buy quests from LotROs base game, but get all the content from MoM and Mirkwood for free? It also also does not make sense, people just accept it because its beneficial to them. But it is obvious that there are behind the scenes criteria we know nothing about involved.
P.S.: Wow the favoured soul costs more than a months alotment of TP? So i need to have been a subscriber for like 2 whole months to be able to afford it? What a horrible horrible ripoff. Especially considering you get WoWs DK for free after ... oh wait.
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
Thats not a precedent. For all we know they might have promised to have the monk class in the base game and just released it late. You also cant ignore the situation DDO was in at that time, they were on the brink of collapse and desperate to keep players giving free stuff like a whole class might have been just a marketing push to keep subscribers. Maybe they where even required to release it free of charge because its a base class in D&D 3.5 and WotC pushed them. We simply dont know why they did what they did. What we do know is that its unusual.
Speaking about unusual, why do we have to buy quests from LotROs base game, but get all the content from MoM and Mirkwood for free? It also also does not make sense, people just accept it because its beneficial to them. But it is obvious that there are behind the scenes criteria we know nothing about involved.
P.S.: Wow the favoured soul costs more than a months alotment of TP? So i need to have been a subscriber for like 2 whole months to be able to afford it? What a horrible horrible ripoff. Especially considering you get WoWs DK for free after ... oh wait.
So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it? Amazing really. People say who cares about F2P in LotRO, if you subscribe it will all stay the same - I point out it will not stay the same as things that where included will be charged for or grinds will be added to get them and show several examples of that from DDO, the companies already live F2P hybrid, and people just ignore and excuse and dismiss it despite the undeniable truth of what I said. Things will not be the same with a sub to the F2P hybrid - you will have to buy or grind things that previously where included - DDO shows clear evidence of this.
FACT - In P2P DDO a new class was included with a subscription to the game. In F2P DDO a new class was not included, even for subscribers.
This is how the game will change, they will add grinds and grinds and grinds to get people, some not all, to buy what they previously would have gotten included and in the case of selling things they previously sold they will just sell it for more (though it will be carved up in pieces when added so that the individuals costs are seemingly small). This is how F2P works, period.
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
Thats not a precedent. For all we know they might have promised to have the monk class in the base game and just released it late. You also cant ignore the situation DDO was in at that time, they were on the brink of collapse and desperate to keep players giving free stuff like a whole class might have been just a marketing push to keep subscribers. Maybe they where even required to release it free of charge because its a base class in D&D 3.5 and WotC pushed them. We simply dont know why they did what they did. What we do know is that its unusual.
Speaking about unusual, why do we have to buy quests from LotROs base game, but get all the content from MoM and Mirkwood for free? It also also does not make sense, people just accept it because its beneficial to them. But it is obvious that there are behind the scenes criteria we know nothing about involved.
P.S.: Wow the favoured soul costs more than a months alotment of TP? So i need to have been a subscriber for like 2 whole months to be able to afford it? What a horrible horrible ripoff. Especially considering you get WoWs DK for free after ... oh wait.
So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it? Amazing really. People say who cares about F2P in LotRO, if you subscribe it will all stay the same - I point out it will not stay the same as things that where included will be charged for or grinds will be added to get them and show several examples of that from DDO, the companies already live F2P hybrid, and people just ignore and excuse and dismiss it despite the undeniable truth of what I said. Things will not be the same with a sub to the F2P hybrid - you will have to buy or grind things that previously where included - DDO shows clear evidence of this.
FACT - In P2P DDO a new class was included with a subscription to the game. In F2P DDO a new class was not included, even for subscribers.
This is how the game will change, they will add grinds and grinds and grinds to get people, some not all, to buy what they previously would have gotten included and in the case of selling things they previously sold they will just sell it for more (though it will be carved up in pieces when added so that the individuals costs are seemingly small). This is how F2P works, period.
Again what about 32 point builds, Favoured Soul is only 750 more points after 32 point builds and they were 750 points more than veteran characters. So is that really that long of a grind for the next favour unlock?
Also the favoured soul class IS included free for VIP's, the fact that in order to unlock it for free you have to have a certain amount of favor is irrelevent. Of course I fully expect you to ignore what I've posted here for the 3rd or 4th time as it directly refutes your claim but if I don't then people would have nothing to filter your BS with.
Comments
Once again I'll point out that DDO VIP's are not required to buy anything to get full access to the game. All adventures, all classes and all items that are in the store are available in game without spending a cent in the DDO store. Even the xp and loot boosters are available through npc turn-ins.
Turbine's F2P model is vastly different from other F2P models. I've given you ample proof your arguments are invalid yet still you persist in trying to argue them. I've even gone so far as re-subbing to DDO to become VIP (though that was also due to the 1000 TP a month offer from june-august that they have on right now as well) to specifically prove that VIP's are not restricted.
For clarities sake I'll repeat what DDO VIP's have access to just by paying the sub fee:
ALL adventure areas, Monk class INCLUDED, Warforged race included, Drow, 32 point builds, Veteran characters and Favoured Soul class are available as unlocks just like they are for everyone else including F2P players (much easier to get with VIP though as you have access to al adventures at all levels). ALL consumables available in DDO shop are available ingame though some are more rare than others.
All of your arguments have been PROVEN, as in with PROOF, to be false so are you still going to maintain your position or are you finally going to listen to reason?
You're also forgetting the 1750 point unlock of 32 point builds which was also in before F2P, or the other FACTION REWARDS that have been in since pretty much the original launch of the game.
Favoured soul is a FACTION REWARD, DROW is a FACTION REWARD, Extra inventory bags are a FACTION REWARD, extra bank tabs are a FACTION REWARD. These are just some obvious examples of FACTION REWARDs that are unlocked whenever you get a certain amount of favour with a particular FACTION in the game and I'm sure they won't be the last ones that Turbine adds to the game as they are a REWARD for players who have been playing the game for a long time. If Turbine wants to offer shortcuts to these optional items for people to buy I could really care less as it doesn't effect my game in the slightest.
LOTRO already has FACTION REWARDs in deeply ingrained in the game mechanics so I'd imagine we'll see some of these things in the LOTRO store as well for people to buy if they want. It doesn't change the fact that these items are available to be had in game without spending money also.
While the facts your presenting are right, turbine is still within the genre standards. Paying for a new Class is normal even among P2P games. To bring this example to LotRO, even lifetimers had to pay for warden and RK. The question is not wether you have to pay for those things, but wether the price is reasonable. It was always a blurry line between free book upgrades and nonfree expansions, but new races classes have almost always been in the later.
But even you have to admit that VIP does include all content in DDO, and the books you mention can still be aquired ingame and are traded freely on the AH for reasonable prices.
Please, if you are going to defend something at least defend what it is and not a glossed over version. DDO's VIP do not get full access, period. They have to either buy or grind things that where previously included for the same sub price - this is fact. As I said, under the old P2P model you get a new class either included or as a minor 400 favor unlock, under F2P a new class is available ONLY by cash shop or by an extreme 2500 favor grind. If you cannot acknowledge that the change there is exactly what I am warning about then you are naive and challenge in terms of rational though. Argue if you wish that you don't mind said change but enough with pretending it is the same, it is not. This kind of change, from included or included within normal gameplay to not included and available by cash shop pruchase long grind is evident in DDO in many ways and it is becoming more and more evident over time.
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Oh please, 2500 favor is not hard to get when you've been playing the game since launch. Hell my main that I had from back when I was P2P has almost 1800 and I haven't done any of the content past level 14-15. When I was playing the game it was the highest favor you could achieve at the time and the 32 point characters were the reward unlocked. Now that they've added in so much more content it makes sense that they would add in higher favor rewards.
In fact this link: http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Favor& shows the exact structure of the favor rewards. This has been in the game since long before they were considering F2P and shows that F2P had nothing to do with the favor required to unlock the favored soul class.
Once again I'm providing facts as proof while you just continue to repeat the same weak argument. It's much the same as sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALALALALALA just so you don't have to admit that you are wrong.
Well, I stand corrected - going from getting a class by trivial in game action of earning 400 favor to getting said class by paying in the cash shop or as you said playing the game since launch to get 1800 (4 years now, btw).
The facts are the facts ...
Under old P2P system the 'unlock' class was 400 favor.
Under the F2P system the new 'unlock' class is 2500 favor (an increase of over 500%, in a favor system of diminishing returns).
Yeah, tell me again how crazy I am suggesting things previously included will go cash shop or crazy grind to get F2P and VIPs alike to buy them. I mean what am I think, a 500% increase in the unlock requirement under the new model is nothing.
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That about says it all. $400 for stuff that was either previously included in the box+sub or readily available through normal gameplay. Yeah, nothing changing - free is good - no nickel and diming going on.
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I never said I was playing since launch (though I did play at launch). I said that anyone who HAS been playing since launch would easily have 2500 favor by now or more, and at the time when I had maxed favor there were many others who did. Actually with the total amount of favor in game now many long time players probably have almost double that much.
Also the first unlock was the Drow RACE at 400 total favor, the second unlock was Veteran characters (start at level 4) at 1000 favor, third onlock was 32 point build/free +2 tome at 1750 favor and fourth unlock is favoured soul at 2500 favor. So total is 400-1000-1750-2500 or 400/600/750/750.
That's not a jump of 2100 points it's a jump of 750 over the previous tiers favor reward. ALL 4 of these favor rewards are available for unlock in the DDO shop and all 4 are OPTIONAL and NONE of them are gamebreaking.
So how am I wrong in stating that under P2P DDOs added class (Monk) was available to subscribers at no extra cost and with a nominal in game unlock (400 favor) but in comparison the first class added under F2P is on the cash shop (for more points than is included in VIP sub btw) or available at a unlock of +500%? Simple, I am not wrong. Apples to apples, new class then to new class now - 500% increase in the in game way to unlock it - welcome to the F2P model.
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You may be confusing the classes AgtSmith:
- Under the old & new system 400 favor unlocks the Drow class/race
- Under the system 2500 favor unlocks the Favored Soul class
At no point did 400 favor unlock anything but the Drow so you can't really compare the Drow's unlock number with the Favored Soul unlock number. They were always different with FvS always being higher.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
You should remove things like the drow, vet chars, 32point builds and the extra bank and bag slots as they are easily unlocked through questing and since you are unlocking adventure areas you could cut down on almost all of that stuff except maybe warforged race and monk class.
I will correct myself - I was confusing the unlock for Drow (a race with point bonuses) to the Monk class. The Monk class was dded to the game at no charge to any subscriber (not in expansion, it was included to anyone with a sub or re-subbing). SO my comparions then to now is even more start.
- Then (old subscription model): New class is included for subscribers
- Now (F2P hybrid model): New class has to be bought in cash shop (more points than come with a monthly sub) or you have an extreme grind to unlock.
That type of change is evident in many ways and over time, as the F2P model becomes more 'accepted' it will get worse and worse.
Yes, you are correct in my error - favor unlocked a race not a class under the old way the class was free, whereas no a new class costs everyone, subscribers and free players (either loooong grind or cash shop money). This about sums up my whole point - old system you got things for free than now will cost you even as a subscriber, or you can look forward to massive grinds if you want it for free - even as a subscriber.
There is little need to look further than that - in old subscriber system you got the new class for free with no in game grind, under new model you get it only if you buy it in cash shop or go through a rather lengthy grind. Such is the difference between F2P (hybrid or otherwise), even as a subscriber, and the old P2P model.
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Subscription AND a cash shop is simply ridiculous. It's like EQ2. It should either be one or the other but never both. Turbine's giving a really bad name to F2P with this greedy business decision. They were doing fine with subscription based gameplay, so why would they switch over in the first place? Oh because they noticed how much money they were draining out of DDO players and realized that this new genre of pay type (yes this is neither F2P or P2P in my eyes.. IT'S BOTH) was putting another porche in the CEO's garage. I love how they come off like "oh we just think it will attract more players and it's all about the community". This really sounds like i'm trolling right now so I'm gonna stop I just don't like what their doing though.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
It seems like it is a mixed bag but mostly positive.
I do however agree with this statement:
KenR:
This right here illustrates what I really hate about F2P. Deeding is part of the game that is so boring for some people that they are willing to pay Turbine to not play their game. That's right for only $4.50 you don't have to play Lotro for an hour.
How messed up is that? Were not paying to play good content we are paying to not play bad content. Seriously, think about that for a minute...
I don't like the idea of having game play that one can pay to bypass. All game play should at least be highly entertaining at best and not be to sluggish at worst.
As for me, I am a current subscriber and in the end I just dont' care about this shop as it is now. I'll make a better decision after it has been out for 6 months.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think this is the problem with F2P, the developers have a clear incentive to design such game elements that people will want to pay to bypass or accelerate them.
Look, I am not saying that Turbine's hybrid model is the worst thing ever, nor am I saying that it is the equivelent of the typical F2P cash shop game where you pay to ungimp yourself or just slug along for 'free'. But this much is true, the hybrid model introdcues the same core mechanics that has corrupted F2P and given it a reputation that is, largely, well earned. The hybrid model is the camel's nose under the tent and while it may start out all fine and dandy over time, and with acceptence, the F2P part of it will corrupt the rest. Maybe that is a ways off, who knows - I don't think it took DDO long to start selling outright advantages (tomes, in quest reserections, classes) and I don't think it will take long in LotRO - but more than those two games the conern I am trying to give voice to is what happens to the genre if gamers do not reject this move to F2P now. If we do not reject it then once they get their nose under the tent and the other choices go away the tiers will includes less and cost more and the grinds you want to avoid will become more plentiful and the sub, if it stays at all, will include less and less. The only thing keeping F2P honest now is the negative image people have of F2P - the Turbine hybrid model may in fact be less an issue than typical F2P but once people accept the hybrid they are just a step from accepting the full on cash shop game and the old sub model will no longer be around to keep things honest.
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Monk and Druid were both classes that they wanted to have in on launch but werent able to, Monk finally made it in and they are still working on Druid. As I said before these are both core classes, base archetypes that all other hybrid and prestige classes are based on. You really don't seem to grasp the concept of classes and races in D&D. You're acting as if the Favoured Soul class is some uber badass class that's better than all the others hands down and can solo epic dungeons all by itself while hopping around on one leg and squacking like a chicken. It's just a class. Personally I think the 32 point build unlock is a much bigger deal than some class that is a fighter/cleric hybrid. You also predictable glossed over the fact that I demonstrated that the favor point difference to get from the 3rd tier favor unlock to the 4th tier is exactly the same, but then your argument was completely void due to the fact that you thought the 400 point unlock was the Monk in the first place.
You keep trying to make it look like they did this on purpose when that is clearly not the case. The total favor unlocks were the game long before F2P was on their radar, what did you just expect them to stop addiing favor unlocks when they went F2P? They have already stated that they are releasing the half-orc race in game soon so I figure they will add that in as lets say a 3250 favor unlock. Anyone who's been a longtime sub in the game will easily have that favor already so they'll get the unlock on day one while the impatient or lazy can just pay to get it without earning the favor.
The bottom line is this. You're trying to claim that turbine purposefully made the favoured soul unlockable at 2500 favor in order to force people to buy it instead of grind for it, you're only argument is that the Monk class was made freely available without having to unlock. My counterargument is that they were just following along with thier already established precident of adding unlocks at specific levels of Total Favor which I backed up by facts and evidence supporting it. The fact that the unlock was a class is irrelevent it could have been another race it doesn't matter same difference as far as game mechanics are concerned.
On one final note I'll make a prediction on some of the future races/classes that they have been planning on introducing and you can too and we'll see who's right.
My prediction: Druid class and Half-Elf race added free for VIP's and Half-Orc becores the next favor unlock. Anyone want to bet against me?
You actually are arguing that the Favored Soul going in to cash shop and having a 2500 favor unlock is not calculated to try to get people, VIPs and others, to buy with extra cash? So it is just a coincendence that the cost in points is more than one months alotment as a VIP and the fact that the previous class added when P2P was included but this one was cash shop or large grind? Come on, don't be naive.
Established precedent? You mean like how they handled the last class added to the game, Monk. OK, sure - let's compare precedent. Monk was added at no additional cost and available without purchase of an expansion and without unlocking of any kind when the game was subscription based. Compare that to how Favored Soul was handled once the game was F2P - it could only be bought in the cash shop (conveninetly at a cost of more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points) or unlocked with a massive favor grind (said grind being 500% higher than the race that was added in P2P with a favor unlock of 400).
Precendent suggests that under P2P you got a class for 'free' with no unlock in P2P but in F2P it has a steep cost in cash/points or grind. So they actually broke precedent in requiring a cost/unlock for an added class which goes exactly to my point that even under this hybrid model F2P a sub does NOT get you the same as it did under P2P - you are in fact paying the same for less in this new model.
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There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
WOW...every time I point out that between the 400 point drow unlock and the 2500 point favoured soul unlock there are TWO OTHER favor unlocks. Both are relevent to the discussion as BOTH of them are related to characters. You just will not even acknowledge them because it completely invalidates your argument. Unlocking 32 point character builds is a FAR bigger deal than unlocking another class because it applies to all future characters that you make. Adding those 4 extra stat points is significant. That's like 4 +1 stat tomes or 2 +2 stat tomes for free. AND on top of that at the same time you also get a free +2 stat tome of your choice. Who gives a shit about a character class that is far more important. Of course you'll still just ignore all mention of those because "oh noes turbine makes you grind for a class but they didn't before"
At everyone crying like babies about Turbines decision.
STFU already! Last time I checked the gamming industry isn't a democracy and in the case of LOTRO you don't get a vote or voice.
WHY? Because DDO casted its vote already and money talks. BTW to the OP, lifers are subscribers so shut up about it.
Im so sick and tired of hearing people complain. Ive played nearly every subscripition based game as have many of the people on these forums, I have also played a few FTP. The difference is quality. Quality of gamplay quality of game design quality of the game engine . FTP as a base idea for a games starting payment model, always leads to poorer quality. In LOTRO however its the opposite. FFS if you all weren't so unaware of who you are as people and could balance your lives and wallets then the announcment of LOTRO going FTP wouldn't scare you abit.
All i hear is" blablabla pay to win". The sooner everyone realizes that life isn't fair and people with money have more libertys than people with out it, the sooner i'll be able to sit down at mmorpg.com and not see a thread relating to how many tears joe blow has cried over X game going FTP and him being at a dissadvantage because he can't hold a job over his current MMO addiction.
Don't most of you realize that the minute you enter the game you are at a dissadvantage, because someone else is already a higher level, or the fact that some rich guy could be buying up all the gold from gold sellers.
The reality of this whole situation is that MMO gammers are tired of getting burned by sub-par games and gamming companys and all they are looking for now is someone to blame. But guess what? TURBINE is not a sub par company nor is LOTRO a sub par game. Theres a reason everyone can't stand Turbines decision, you wanna know why.......cause you don't run the goddamn company and its not your choice. So what. Don't play lotro. Who gives a flying F*CK. I for one don't . Why because I don't even play the game. If you do decide to play lotro then good for you, hopefully you will be a loyal subscriber.
Just know that these people who do purchase these items from LOTRO's in game store are sending money back to Turbine at almost a 100% profit, which inturn allows for more updates and expansions. Whats wrong with going above and beyond and supporting a game or company more than the standard 15$ a month? Its my damn money.
For those with their panties in a twist over this whle subject I'll leave you wiht 2 words of advice.
JUST SUBSCRIBE...................................... whoah , i can subscribe stilll ?.... NOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
Flame away asshats.
Hey, you'll soon be categorized as a shill, I'm sure. Just like anyone trying to make sense to haters
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Thats not a precedent. For all we know they might have promised to have the monk class in the base game and just released it late. You also cant ignore the situation DDO was in at that time, they were on the brink of collapse and desperate to keep players giving free stuff like a whole class might have been just a marketing push to keep subscribers. Maybe they where even required to release it free of charge because its a base class in D&D 3.5 and WotC pushed them. We simply dont know why they did what they did. What we do know is that its unusual.
Speaking about unusual, why do we have to buy quests from LotROs base game, but get all the content from MoM and Mirkwood for free? It also also does not make sense, people just accept it because its beneficial to them. But it is obvious that there are behind the scenes criteria we know nothing about involved.
P.S.: Wow the favoured soul costs more than a months alotment of TP? So i need to have been a subscriber for like 2 whole months to be able to afford it? What a horrible horrible ripoff. Especially considering you get WoWs DK for free after ... oh wait.
So i demonstrate how a new class was included in P2P DDO but in F2P hybrid DDP it was only available through cash shop or long in game grind and you just dismiss that? Come on, that is the whole point of the move to F2P - charge more for the same or lots more for extra. This is how F2P works, yet even showing the same company doing it with anothet game people ignore it and excuse it? Amazing really. People say who cares about F2P in LotRO, if you subscribe it will all stay the same - I point out it will not stay the same as things that where included will be charged for or grinds will be added to get them and show several examples of that from DDO, the companies already live F2P hybrid, and people just ignore and excuse and dismiss it despite the undeniable truth of what I said. Things will not be the same with a sub to the F2P hybrid - you will have to buy or grind things that previously where included - DDO shows clear evidence of this.
FACT - In P2P DDO a new class was included with a subscription to the game. In F2P DDO a new class was not included, even for subscribers.
This is how the game will change, they will add grinds and grinds and grinds to get people, some not all, to buy what they previously would have gotten included and in the case of selling things they previously sold they will just sell it for more (though it will be carved up in pieces when added so that the individuals costs are seemingly small). This is how F2P works, period.
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Again what about 32 point builds, Favoured Soul is only 750 more points after 32 point builds and they were 750 points more than veteran characters. So is that really that long of a grind for the next favour unlock?
Also the favoured soul class IS included free for VIP's, the fact that in order to unlock it for free you have to have a certain amount of favor is irrelevent. Of course I fully expect you to ignore what I've posted here for the 3rd or 4th time as it directly refutes your claim but if I don't then people would have nothing to filter your BS with.
I dunno, I started putting his posts on block, works good for me. Let it go man, seriously, you're feeding him hard.