To you and others looking at this only through the prism of your own, and current, consumption I suggest the following. If you are a player who plays only a couple hours a month, who plays F2P games without buying anything, or otherwise doesn't pay money to play MMOs then explain how it is you think Turbine, or any F2P game/model, is targetting you?
Nope! That's entirely true, they aren't targetting that player. But they still see the value in those types of players. They indirectly add to the bottom line by being in the game, keeping the population up and providing someone to play with. Someone who just might leave if there was no one on to do quests.
If only 1 in 5 players pays to play, those other 4 people are still there to quest with. That person will more likely stay with a game where they can find a fellowship in a couple minutes as opposed to a couple weeks. And with those non-paying players, time and promotions go ever on and on! I've been playing DDO occasionally with a free account and haven't bought anything yet. But with the Summer Promotion, I just might resub to get those points and check out the new content...
Every free account is a potential revenue source. As long as they have an account and get your email promos(essentially free advertising), just someday they may buy something. And if 15 bucks is the lowest price to pay, you lost the potential of the guy who has sat down for a ONE night of DDO and decides to spend a few bucks for healing pots and whatnot to make that experience a better one. Maybe they won't play for another couple months, but either way, you made a few bucks that you never would have made.
No cynical money grubbing intent is necessary. Not to say it doesn't exist, but it's unnecessary.
This is exaclty it. What many don't seem to be getting is that the VIP players are still the bread and butter income under this new model so they still NEED to keep those customers happy but with the addition of the F2P players they are accomplishing 2 things. They are allowing the potential customers who play more casually and maybe can't justify spending $15 a month to play and unlock content as they are ready for it and they are also populating the starter zones with the F2P players so that all these casual players have people to group with and zones which are constantly alive with activity. The structure of their pricing model makes that obvious, at least to me.
Really? Then why did they deny thier bread and butter, those you suggest are all so improtant to them the newest class added to the game unless they fork over money in the cash shop? Why then does that chart for LotRO serve as a series of limits on what was previously summed up easily as 'unlmited'? Come on, the cake is a lie!
First, in theory F2P games are necessarily about making people want/need to spend in the cash shop - this is fact. P2P games, on the other hand, are about creating a overall game expereince that is attractive enough to warrant a play buying a subscription.
This is the fail in f2p that alot of f***tards fail to see or dont' want to see.
Throw in a cash shop and the overall game suffers to some degree. Some area of the game will lack, something will suffer because efforts are not concentrated on the game as a whole but on the cash shop and how it relates to everything else in the game.
Cash shops are the limiting variable that affects the whole game. Take them out and there are far less restrictions in regards to creating content.
I like playing LOTRO, already have the expacs for $10 bucks, I'm glad I won't have to pay monthly anymore. I'll buy stuff if I really want it, win/win for me.
First, in theory F2P games are necessarily about making people want/need to spend in the cash shop - this is fact. P2P games, on the other hand, are about creating a overall game expereince that is attractive enough to warrant a play buying a subscription.
This is the fail in f2p that alot of f***tards fail to see or dont' want to see.
Throw in a cash shop and the overall game suffers to some degree. Some area of the game will lack, something will suffer because efforts are not concentrated on the game as a whole but on the cash shop and how it relates to everything else in the game.
Cash shops are the limiting variable that affects the whole game. Take them out and there are far less restrictions in regards to creating content.
I agree, this is really what it boils down to and for all those thinking they are getting to play an AAA MMO for free that is only going to be the case if the DEVs suck at business and run the F2P model in to the ground, in which case the game will fail and they won't have anything to play anyways. The simple fact of the F2P reality is that they need people spending in the cash shop and the idea that a couple fat slobs in Mom's basement will pay enough for everyone else to play for free is simply naive.
First, in theory F2P games are necessarily about making people want/need to spend in the cash shop - this is fact. P2P games, on the other hand, are about creating a overall game expereince that is attractive enough to warrant a play buying a subscription.
This is the fail in f2p that alot of f***tards fail to see or dont' want to see.
Throw in a cash shop and the overall game suffers to some degree. Some area of the game will lack, something will suffer because efforts are not concentrated on the game as a whole but on the cash shop and how it relates to everything else in the game.
Cash shops are the limiting variable that affects the whole game. Take them out and there are far less restrictions in regards to creating content.
I agree, this is really what it boils down to and for all those thinking they are getting to play an AAA MMO for free that is only going to be the case if the DEVs suck at business and run the F2P model in to the ground, in which case the game will fail and they won't have anything to play anyways. The simple fact of the F2P reality is that they need people spending in the cash shop and the idea that a couple fat slobs in Mom's basement will pay enough for everyone else to play for free is simply naive.
You do know a game named DDO exists that does exactly that? I play that game on and off, and while i dont like the gamemechanics much im not forced to buy stuff in the store, im playing it completely for free. That is the reality. The only ones that will be forced to spend cash in the cashshop are those that a) dont have the expansions yet, they would have had to buy them before aswell and b) min maxxers/high end raiders. If your fine with 5 charslots, not having all your traits and having to grind a bit nothing is forcing you to spend money.
Its like that in DDO, and it works in DDO. Doing theorycrafting about how such a model cant work is just ridiculous if its already been done successfully before. Turbine isnt experimenting here, they are adapting a model that works damn fine already in another game of theirs.
Edit: Here is a Thread about DDO, comparing what it costs to get all the Perks a VIP has as a premium member. In the end its less than a one year subscribtion to get everything, including all useable content, the races, charslots and shared bankspace. Thats not nickle and diming, thats about making a choice. And yeah infact the guy in that threat is whining that a subscription isnt worth it. According to another figure DDOs subscriptions went up by 100% after going F2P btw, but im not sure i believe that tbh ...
I will say that atleast with the Pay as you go team at DDO they seem to be directing their efforts at what will sell
Bingo, this is the 'danger'. Say sales/revenue drops off so the decision is made to sneak up XP requirements or lower XP payouts or change loot tables to encourage more cash shop sales, the slippery slope begins. F2P simply introduces a mechanic whereby revenue can come from design changes that make the game more of a pain in the arse (i.e. less loot, more grind, etc, etc) and that is trouble waiting to happen.
You're still not listening. 80% of the players will not be spending money on your game. If you try to milk that 80% of money, they leave, which in turn causes the paying 20% to leave. Your fears are unfounded as they are based in a lack of understanding of how fremium and free2play games work.
And that is the issue - since so few players actually pay the bills the pressure to make those players need/want things on the cash shop is intensified.
Or with the higher numbers you have more people in that 20% pool, which is the basis of the system.
Plenty of people have presented how it works through facts, figures and links. Plenty of people have countered your misconceptions and misinformation with rather lucid and straightforward explanations. Is it that you have a lot of trouble understanding this or that you simply refuse to accept anything other than what you have already convinced yourself of?
That is how they justify and spin it, but the reality is otherwise. They are no slashing their prices to attract 5 or 10 times more people to make the same money - that is the lie. It is about being able to make more money off the same or fewer people.
That reply is gibberish. I never said it was to make the same amount of money. I stated that the way they make more is through attracting a larger audience, however a smaller percentage (though greater number) is paying. You're not even reading at this point and just slapping your "I refuse to accept that" button whenever you see a post that doesn't buy into your view.
And this is where we have our impasse. When presented with the truth about how this model works - a truth that has been explained by industryprofessionalstimeandtimeagain - you slap on the tinfoil hat, maniacally laugh and go "Ahahaha That's what they want you to believe!!!"
I'm sorry, but any further attempt to explain thsi to you would just be an exercise in futility.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am going to play F2P Lotr but I would not purchase anything in their shop. F2P games are just good for exploring while waiting for others game to launch. And also one of the reason Turbine went to F2P because LOTR is not even in the top 10 Moneymaking Online Games of 2009 lol
To you and others looking at this only through the prism of your own, and current, consumption I suggest the following. If you are a player who plays only a couple hours a month, who plays F2P games without buying anything, or otherwise doesn't pay money to play MMOs then explain how it is you think Turbine, or any F2P game/model, is targetting you?
Nope! That's entirely true, they aren't targetting that player. But they still see the value in those types of players. They indirectly add to the bottom line by being in the game, keeping the population up and providing someone to play with. Someone who just might leave if there was no one on to do quests.
If only 1 in 5 players pays to play, those other 4 people are still there to quest with. That person will more likely stay with a game where they can find a fellowship in a couple minutes as opposed to a couple weeks. And with those non-paying players, time and promotions go ever on and on! I've been playing DDO occasionally with a free account and haven't bought anything yet. But with the Summer Promotion, I just might resub to get those points and check out the new content...
Every free account is a potential revenue source. As long as they have an account and get your email promos(essentially free advertising), just someday they may buy something. And if 15 bucks is the lowest price to pay, you lost the potential of the guy who has sat down for a ONE night of DDO and decides to spend a few bucks for healing pots and whatnot to make that experience a better one. Maybe they won't play for another couple months, but either way, you made a few bucks that you never would have made.
No cynical money grubbing intent is necessary. Not to say it doesn't exist, but it's unnecessary.
This is exaclty it. What many don't seem to be getting is that the VIP players are still the bread and butter income under this new model so they still NEED to keep those customers happy but with the addition of the F2P players they are accomplishing 2 things. They are allowing the potential customers who play more casually and maybe can't justify spending $15 a month to play and unlock content as they are ready for it and they are also populating the starter zones with the F2P players so that all these casual players have people to group with and zones which are constantly alive with activity. The structure of their pricing model makes that obvious, at least to me.
Really? Then why did they deny thier bread and butter, those you suggest are all so improtant to them the newest class added to the game unless they fork over money in the cash shop? Why then does that chart for LotRO serve as a series of limits on what was previously summed up easily as 'unlmited'? Come on, the cake is a lie!
VIP's get monk automatically, they have no need to pay to unlock it at all it is just considered a base class. I know this because I was able to make one last night when I resubbed for their current deal. So once again your argument fails. Care to take your fingers out of your ears and actually listen now?
If you truly think this is the heart of their model and not just a circumstantial byproduct then you are naive. The model is about getting more from the same base, yes they now that in F2P there is a lower barrier to entry so they got a shot at people that would never give them a look otherwise but as one dev said on the subject that also means there is a no barrier to exit so people leave far more easily. The point is to get more from the same audience, and while at it maybe ppick up some new folks along the way. This is why that chart I quoted doesn;t simply say under the VIP section "unlimited" because they want more for the same and the whole move in this is to restructure to get more from the same.
It doesn't say "unlimited" because they are now offering MORE options to all players. Back to DDO, a service which has existed for a year: should VIP's get unlimited Cure Potions? Unlimited henchmen? Unlimited bonus XP pots?
No. You had to pay for them ingame before F2P and you have to pay for them, now. They even fudge THAT, giving you 500 points per month to spend. As a DDO VIP member who USED to have an account before F2P, I get MORE, now than I did then. Far as I know, DDO VIP's have yet to have to spend any more money on ANY of the new content available since F2P. Call me naive if you like, I'll take history over speculation, any day.
VIP's get monk automatically, they have no need to pay to unlock it at all it is just considered a base class. I know this because I was able to make one last night when I resubbed for their current deal. So once again your argument fails. Care to take your fingers out of your ears and actually listen now?
me too! what a koinkidink! Went VIP and created a monk, myself. You didn't, perchance make a warforged monk on Sarlona did you? If so, I probably saw you.
VIP's get monk automatically, they have no need to pay to unlock it at all it is just considered a base class. I know this because I was able to make one last night when I resubbed for their current deal. So once again your argument fails. Care to take your fingers out of your ears and actually listen now?
me too! what a koinkidink! Went VIP and created a monk, myself. You didn't, perchance make a warforged monk on Sarlona did you? If so, I probably saw you.
Nope got my characters on Kyber since that's where my main is. Still can't believe how busy the servers are now it's great to see.
I am going to play F2P Lotr but I would not purchase anything in their shop. F2P games are just good for exploring while waiting for others game to launch. And also one of the reason Turbine went to F2P because LOTR is not even in the top 10 Moneymaking Online Games of 2009 lol
Yup... if only Turbine would change all its games to mimic all the Korean Chinese, etc. games that dominate that list. Then they'd make huge money and we'd all have gaming nirvana!!! LOL!
I am going to play F2P Lotr but I would not purchase anything in their shop. F2P games are just good for exploring while waiting for others game to launch. And also one of the reason Turbine went to F2P because LOTR is not even in the top 10 Moneymaking Online Games of 2009 lol
Yup... if only Turbine would change all its games to mimic all the Korean Chinese, etc. games that dominate that list. Then they'd make huge money and we'd all have gaming nirvana!!! LOL!
Thnx for the larf!
I agree that was a rather amusing leap he took there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
TL;DR - F2S or not, LotRO doesn't have a lot of replay value.
If you're there just for the game, maybe, but I will log in everyday once it's F2P to grow pipeweed and jam out on lute. I was doing that for a while at the end of of my subbed days with it, and it definitely wasn't worth the investment. Now I'm all for this upcoming change, and I'm looking at getting a midi keyboard set up to act like a normal one. Otherwise, I'll have to buy just a new keyboard, cuz there's no way I can get down on the one I'm using.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
TL;DR - F2S or not, LotRO doesn't have a lot of replay value.
If you're there just for the game, maybe, but I will log in everyday once it's F2P to grow pipeweed and jam out on lute. I was doing that for a while at the end of of my subbed days with it, and it definitely wasn't worth the investment. Now I'm all for this upcoming change, and I'm looking at getting a midi keyboard set up to act like a normal one. Otherwise, I'll have to buy just a new keyboard, cuz there's no way I can get down on the one I'm using.
I have to admit, it's the people who get together and jam that really make Turbine's middle earth feel like a real world.
I noted that recently while going up the steps to the prancing pony. Right in front of the Inn there was a small band and other players were clapping, dancing, etc.
It really gave the feel of a greater life to the game other than leveling or getting the perfect Legendary Item.
I certainly hope more people come back for that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That reply is gibberish. I never said it was to make the same amount of money. I stated that the way they make more is through attracting a larger audience, however a smaller percentage (though greater number) is paying. You're not even reading at this point and just slapping your "I refuse to accept that" button whenever you see a post that doesn't buy into your view.
And this is where we have our impasse. When presented with the truth about how this model works - a truth that has been explained by industryprofessionalstimeandtimeagain - you slap on the tinfoil hat, maniacally laugh and go "Ahahaha That's what they want you to believe!!!"
I'm sorry, but any further attempt to explain thsi to you would just be an exercise in futility.
The show me a single F2P MMO where gameplay advantages are not sold. Sure, if you don't mind massive grinds, being gimped (a lot or a little), missing content, races, classes, or other such things then what you say is true but those things are important to MMOs and ignoring the fact that every single F2P monetizes them, and that the collective pruchase of them far outweighs current sub prices, is foolish.
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
are you aware that there will still be a subscription based plan in which is the same as the current P2P subscription system?
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
are you aware that there will still be a subscription based plan in which is the same as the current P2P subscription system?
The same? Harldy. Price is the same but instead of it giving you full access to the game it gives you partial access as shown in DDO. Moreover, the game changes when it gets a cash shop so yes the price of sub is the same but the all you can eat goes away and you become subject to the cash shop just like anyone else (albeit with X pints allowance per month but I already showed how that is a very minor amount compared to how they price common things).
The same? Harldy. Price is the same but instead of it giving you full access to the game it gives you partial access as shown in DDO. Moreover, the game changes when it gets a cash shop so yes the price of sub is the same but the all you can eat goes away and you become subject to the cash shop just like anyone else (albeit with X pints allowance per month but I already showed how that is a very minor amount compared to how they price common things).
You know a mere subscription in most P2P also only gives you partial access right? Take a look at EQ 2 for example, that game got 6 Addons, and currently has 3 adventure packs going, you have to pay a subscription and it also has a store. Now lets imagine someone has played the game for 4 years and bought each of that as it came out, no idea how much they cost, lets just assume 20$:
4x12x10$ = 480$
6x20$ = 120$
3x20$ = 60$
= 660 $
This is a lowend figure imho.
To compare, how much content is in the DDO store? The game got launched 02/28/2006, since they resell content in the store that was there at launch its a fair comparsion i think. Here we have a rough listing, having all the content + 10 charslots + all classes is 150$. Lets just assume he missed stuff, so we are at 200$.
Now who is getting milked here? Its very easy actually, in the long run buying content is cheaper than paying a subscription(because there isnt 40$ worth of content every month, no game has that including DDO), especially once the developement of a game has slowed down(which is bad for F2P game from a buisness perspective, you need to keep releasing new content, having your game be stagnant for a year would hurt). Shortterm a subscription is cheaper, especially if you join a game after a couple years and get the full game with x expansions for 40$, but that doesnt mean people that have been around for years and bought each expansion as it came out got the same sweet deal.
The thing most people misunderstand is that you dont need consumeables like XP or loot potions. If you enjoy a game, does it really matter if its 6 days /played to maxlevel or 10 days /played? Does it really matter wether you need to run a raid 4 times instead of 3 times(and random is random, even with loot potions you can go 20 runs without getting the item you want while some guy without potion got it the first time around), and thats not even mentioning that loot potions afaik dont work in dungeons, so what exactly is dropping in open world pve that you desperately need some % more off?
Even those expensive +Stat boost books in DDO, you can buy them in the AH for a reasonable price aswell, cause they are worlddrops. Take a close look at how DDO really works, before you diss what turbine wants to do with LotRO.
P.S.: The 500 points a month for VIPs and lifers are huge. Yeah per month its only around 7$, not much, but an expansion only costs around 30-40$ either, and you simply wont see them coming every 3 months. And over an timeframe of 4 years like in our example above thats already 336$ worth of non VIP included content. DDO managed maybe about 20$(the warforged race) in the one year its F2P right?
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
are you aware that there will still be a subscription based plan in which is the same as the current P2P subscription system?
The same? Harldy. Price is the same but instead of it giving you full access to the game it gives you partial access as shown in DDO. Moreover, the game changes when it gets a cash shop so yes the price of sub is the same but the all you can eat goes away and you become subject to the cash shop just like anyone else (albeit with X pints allowance per month but I already showed how that is a very minor amount compared to how they price common things).
you are spreading misinfotrmation, not that it matters.
from the FAQ, anyone that want the truth just click the link
What are the differences between Free player, Premium player, and VIP?
All the details about the features and benefits of Free players, Premium players, and VIPs, are listed here
can you point out a single thing in the Premium player column that is different......thought not.
Now feel free to carry on on with your misinformation, LoTRO and Turbine are doing quite well irreggardless of your efforts
I will love watching the troll posters when the F2P gets out of beta and the population ingame skyrockets LOL. Why pay to play a premium MMO when LoTRO is available
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
are you aware that there will still be a subscription based plan in which is the same as the current P2P subscription system?
The same? Harldy. Price is the same but instead of it giving you full access to the game it gives you partial access as shown in DDO. Moreover, the game changes when it gets a cash shop so yes the price of sub is the same but the all you can eat goes away and you become subject to the cash shop just like anyone else (albeit with X pints allowance per month but I already showed how that is a very minor amount compared to how they price common things).
I already pointed out how you were wrong about DDO. VIP's get open access to ALL adventures, they get access to all classes including monk (and favored soul with 2500 favor just like anyone) plus the 500 TP a month to spend on stuff if they want. The reason they have loot potions is because the majority of loot in the game is random so the really the loot boost is a nice little buff, but doesn't really unbalance the game as youre still just as likely to get something you don't want as something you do. So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
can you point out a single thing in the Premium player column that is different......thought not.
I only spent the whole original post and thread pointing out how it is different, sorry you are blind to reality. BUt go ahead, ignore how DDO is selling stuff that prior to F2P was free to subscribers, ignore how DDO and all F2P monetize gameplay and carve it up in to little pieces that you must by to avoid ever increasing grinds and inconveniences, not to mention ouright disadvantages.
I already pointed out how you were wrong about DDO. VIP's get open access to ALL adventures, they get access to all classes including monk (and favored soul with 2500 favor just like anyone) plus the 500 TP a month to spend on stuff if they want. The reason they have loot potions is because the majority of loot in the game is random so the really the loot boost is a nice little buff, but doesn't really unbalance the game as youre still just as likely to get something you don't want as something you do. So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
So they get access to all classes, except the new class added since going F20 - gee, you are right - that really shows me to be wrong. I mean before F2P all players got all class just for paying the sub, but after F2P even subscribers need to buy a new class in cash shop or earn it through an incredible in game grind (by comparison unlocking Drow race was in game grind of 400 favor, post F2P unlocking Fav Soul is 2500 favor). Man, I am so spreading lies and misinformation - saying things previously included would be monitized and sold in cash shop (classes like Fav Soul, rare items like Tomes, etc) and what kind of crazy exageration am I putting forth saying the grinds would increase (like going from 400 favor to get Drow before F2P to 2500 to get Fav Soul). I am so unreasonable pointing out the truth, what was I thinking.
Originally posted by Minsc
So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
Yeah, Turbine's hybrid F2P model is different, I do not deny that. But it is different in the same way that a street hooker and a call girl are different, or maybe the same way any hooker and a stripper are different. Both are whores of gameplay monetizing actual gameplay (in game convenience and advantage) for revenue rather than monetizing access over time as the old models do. You can defend the stripper as not being like the hooker all you want but both suffer the same flaw and are not trustowrthy for the same reasons.
Comments
Really? Then why did they deny thier bread and butter, those you suggest are all so improtant to them the newest class added to the game unless they fork over money in the cash shop? Why then does that chart for LotRO serve as a series of limits on what was previously summed up easily as 'unlmited'? Come on, the cake is a lie!
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This is the fail in f2p that alot of f***tards fail to see or dont' want to see.
Throw in a cash shop and the overall game suffers to some degree. Some area of the game will lack, something will suffer because efforts are not concentrated on the game as a whole but on the cash shop and how it relates to everything else in the game.
Cash shops are the limiting variable that affects the whole game. Take them out and there are far less restrictions in regards to creating content.
I like playing LOTRO, already have the expacs for $10 bucks, I'm glad I won't have to pay monthly anymore. I'll buy stuff if I really want it, win/win for me.
I agree, this is really what it boils down to and for all those thinking they are getting to play an AAA MMO for free that is only going to be the case if the DEVs suck at business and run the F2P model in to the ground, in which case the game will fail and they won't have anything to play anyways. The simple fact of the F2P reality is that they need people spending in the cash shop and the idea that a couple fat slobs in Mom's basement will pay enough for everyone else to play for free is simply naive.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
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You do know a game named DDO exists that does exactly that? I play that game on and off, and while i dont like the gamemechanics much im not forced to buy stuff in the store, im playing it completely for free. That is the reality. The only ones that will be forced to spend cash in the cashshop are those that a) dont have the expansions yet, they would have had to buy them before aswell and b) min maxxers/high end raiders. If your fine with 5 charslots, not having all your traits and having to grind a bit nothing is forcing you to spend money.
Its like that in DDO, and it works in DDO. Doing theorycrafting about how such a model cant work is just ridiculous if its already been done successfully before. Turbine isnt experimenting here, they are adapting a model that works damn fine already in another game of theirs.
Edit: Here is a Thread about DDO, comparing what it costs to get all the Perks a VIP has as a premium member. In the end its less than a one year subscribtion to get everything, including all useable content, the races, charslots and shared bankspace. Thats not nickle and diming, thats about making a choice. And yeah infact the guy in that threat is whining that a subscription isnt worth it. According to another figure DDOs subscriptions went up by 100% after going F2P btw, but im not sure i believe that tbh ...
That reply is gibberish. I never said it was to make the same amount of money. I stated that the way they make more is through attracting a larger audience, however a smaller percentage (though greater number) is paying. You're not even reading at this point and just slapping your "I refuse to accept that" button whenever you see a post that doesn't buy into your view.
And this is where we have our impasse. When presented with the truth about how this model works - a truth that has been explained by industry professionals time and time again - you slap on the tinfoil hat, maniacally laugh and go "Ahahaha That's what they want you to believe!!!"
I'm sorry, but any further attempt to explain thsi to you would just be an exercise in futility.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am going to play F2P Lotr but I would not purchase anything in their shop. F2P games are just good for exploring while waiting for others game to launch. And also one of the reason Turbine went to F2P because LOTR is not even in the top 10 Moneymaking Online Games of 2009 lol
http://blogs.forbes.com/velocity/2010/06/10/top-moneymaking-online-games-of-2009/
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Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
VIP's get monk automatically, they have no need to pay to unlock it at all it is just considered a base class. I know this because I was able to make one last night when I resubbed for their current deal. So once again your argument fails. Care to take your fingers out of your ears and actually listen now?
It doesn't say "unlimited" because they are now offering MORE options to all players. Back to DDO, a service which has existed for a year: should VIP's get unlimited Cure Potions? Unlimited henchmen? Unlimited bonus XP pots?
No. You had to pay for them ingame before F2P and you have to pay for them, now. They even fudge THAT, giving you 500 points per month to spend. As a DDO VIP member who USED to have an account before F2P, I get MORE, now than I did then. Far as I know, DDO VIP's have yet to have to spend any more money on ANY of the new content available since F2P. Call me naive if you like, I'll take history over speculation, any day.
me too! what a koinkidink! Went VIP and created a monk, myself. You didn't, perchance make a warforged monk on Sarlona did you? If so, I probably saw you.
Nope got my characters on Kyber since that's where my main is. Still can't believe how busy the servers are now it's great to see.
Yup... if only Turbine would change all its games to mimic all the Korean Chinese, etc. games that dominate that list. Then they'd make huge money and we'd all have gaming nirvana!!! LOL!
Thnx for the larf!
I agree that was a rather amusing leap he took there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you're there just for the game, maybe, but I will log in everyday once it's F2P to grow pipeweed and jam out on lute. I was doing that for a while at the end of of my subbed days with it, and it definitely wasn't worth the investment. Now I'm all for this upcoming change, and I'm looking at getting a midi keyboard set up to act like a normal one. Otherwise, I'll have to buy just a new keyboard, cuz there's no way I can get down on the one I'm using.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I have to admit, it's the people who get together and jam that really make Turbine's middle earth feel like a real world.
I noted that recently while going up the steps to the prancing pony. Right in front of the Inn there was a small band and other players were clapping, dancing, etc.
It really gave the feel of a greater life to the game other than leveling or getting the perfect Legendary Item.
I certainly hope more people come back for that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The show me a single F2P MMO where gameplay advantages are not sold. Sure, if you don't mind massive grinds, being gimped (a lot or a little), missing content, races, classes, or other such things then what you say is true but those things are important to MMOs and ignoring the fact that every single F2P monetizes them, and that the collective pruchase of them far outweighs current sub prices, is foolish.
It is stunning to me that people actually are arguing that key gameplay elements do not hav eto be sold in F2P games to make the model work for developers. I mean it is beyond reason to think that the only stuff they sell is superfolous convenience yet they can afford to do that and make money. Wake up people, just because you are so cheap that you are willing to put up with a gimped experience (compared to what you get in P2P) doesn't negate the reality that key items, elements, and content is sold and it is sold at a greater price piecemeal than it is in the current sub model.
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are you aware that there will still be a subscription based plan in which is the same as the current P2P subscription system?
I miss DAoC
The same? Harldy. Price is the same but instead of it giving you full access to the game it gives you partial access as shown in DDO. Moreover, the game changes when it gets a cash shop so yes the price of sub is the same but the all you can eat goes away and you become subject to the cash shop just like anyone else (albeit with X pints allowance per month but I already showed how that is a very minor amount compared to how they price common things).
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You know a mere subscription in most P2P also only gives you partial access right? Take a look at EQ 2 for example, that game got 6 Addons, and currently has 3 adventure packs going, you have to pay a subscription and it also has a store. Now lets imagine someone has played the game for 4 years and bought each of that as it came out, no idea how much they cost, lets just assume 20$:
4x12x10$ = 480$
6x20$ = 120$
3x20$ = 60$
= 660 $
This is a lowend figure imho.
To compare, how much content is in the DDO store? The game got launched 02/28/2006, since they resell content in the store that was there at launch its a fair comparsion i think. Here we have a rough listing, having all the content + 10 charslots + all classes is 150$. Lets just assume he missed stuff, so we are at 200$.
Now who is getting milked here? Its very easy actually, in the long run buying content is cheaper than paying a subscription(because there isnt 40$ worth of content every month, no game has that including DDO), especially once the developement of a game has slowed down(which is bad for F2P game from a buisness perspective, you need to keep releasing new content, having your game be stagnant for a year would hurt). Shortterm a subscription is cheaper, especially if you join a game after a couple years and get the full game with x expansions for 40$, but that doesnt mean people that have been around for years and bought each expansion as it came out got the same sweet deal.
The thing most people misunderstand is that you dont need consumeables like XP or loot potions. If you enjoy a game, does it really matter if its 6 days /played to maxlevel or 10 days /played? Does it really matter wether you need to run a raid 4 times instead of 3 times(and random is random, even with loot potions you can go 20 runs without getting the item you want while some guy without potion got it the first time around), and thats not even mentioning that loot potions afaik dont work in dungeons, so what exactly is dropping in open world pve that you desperately need some % more off?
Even those expensive +Stat boost books in DDO, you can buy them in the AH for a reasonable price aswell, cause they are worlddrops. Take a close look at how DDO really works, before you diss what turbine wants to do with LotRO.
P.S.: The 500 points a month for VIPs and lifers are huge. Yeah per month its only around 7$, not much, but an expansion only costs around 30-40$ either, and you simply wont see them coming every 3 months. And over an timeframe of 4 years like in our example above thats already 336$ worth of non VIP included content. DDO managed maybe about 20$(the warforged race) in the one year its F2P right?
you are spreading misinfotrmation, not that it matters.
from the FAQ, anyone that want the truth just click the link
What are the differences between Free player, Premium player, and VIP?
All the details about the features and benefits of Free players, Premium players, and VIPs, are listed here
can you point out a single thing in the Premium player column that is different......thought not.
Now feel free to carry on on with your misinformation, LoTRO and Turbine are doing quite well irreggardless of your efforts
I will love watching the troll posters when the F2P gets out of beta and the population ingame skyrockets LOL. Why pay to play a premium MMO when LoTRO is available
I miss DAoC
I already pointed out how you were wrong about DDO. VIP's get open access to ALL adventures, they get access to all classes including monk (and favored soul with 2500 favor just like anyone) plus the 500 TP a month to spend on stuff if they want. The reason they have loot potions is because the majority of loot in the game is random so the really the loot boost is a nice little buff, but doesn't really unbalance the game as youre still just as likely to get something you don't want as something you do. So, are you finally going to listen to people when they say that Turbine's F2P model is different from the Asian model or are you going to continue to be unreasonable?
Just a small example of some thing in the store:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/16/full-details-of-lotro-cash-shop-items-revealed/
Nothing I would spend money on. Will be interesting to see the rest.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Alternatively, players can purchase a permanent boost to virtue
Price: 35 Points – about $0.50
Ok, guess that means i dont have to grind grey quests or whack another 100 elite trolls.
I only spent the whole original post and thread pointing out how it is different, sorry you are blind to reality. BUt go ahead, ignore how DDO is selling stuff that prior to F2P was free to subscribers, ignore how DDO and all F2P monetize gameplay and carve it up in to little pieces that you must by to avoid ever increasing grinds and inconveniences, not to mention ouright disadvantages.
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So they get access to all classes, except the new class added since going F20 - gee, you are right - that really shows me to be wrong. I mean before F2P all players got all class just for paying the sub, but after F2P even subscribers need to buy a new class in cash shop or earn it through an incredible in game grind (by comparison unlocking Drow race was in game grind of 400 favor, post F2P unlocking Fav Soul is 2500 favor). Man, I am so spreading lies and misinformation - saying things previously included would be monitized and sold in cash shop (classes like Fav Soul, rare items like Tomes, etc) and what kind of crazy exageration am I putting forth saying the grinds would increase (like going from 400 favor to get Drow before F2P to 2500 to get Fav Soul). I am so unreasonable pointing out the truth, what was I thinking.
Yeah, Turbine's hybrid F2P model is different, I do not deny that. But it is different in the same way that a street hooker and a call girl are different, or maybe the same way any hooker and a stripper are different. Both are whores of gameplay monetizing actual gameplay (in game convenience and advantage) for revenue rather than monetizing access over time as the old models do. You can defend the stripper as not being like the hooker all you want but both suffer the same flaw and are not trustowrthy for the same reasons.
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