I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
EXACTLY. A subscription is diminished as it no longer gives you full access to the game it just gives you access to what is in the game now - new stuff (like Favored Soul class in DDO) is sold on cash shop. Not the worst thing ever but it is neither free to play nor is it paying a sub to keep things as they are now. And for lifers, I think they really get the shaft as they will have to buy stuff in the cash shop to avoid the enivitable increasing grinds for commons things or the 'new' stuff such as I mentioned originally.
Wrong go read up on some of the official forum threads the base game most of us paid for alot of that content will not be given back but forced to rebuy so any alts or new characters you plan to start better be ready to whip out your wallet because your gonna have to pay for alot of the SOA content.
Actually that part IS true (regarding your characters over the 5 limit) and is very scummy.
The caveat is that subscibers/lifers will get points from now until they launch it as well as additional points per month in order to buy back your 4 other characers, assuming that you have all 9 created. So it might be more than likely that you spend these points on getting your characters back. Still, it is a bit dubious.
This is not exactly worded correctly. IF you are a "VIP" member AND you had previously purchased Moria and Mirkwood updates, then you will get ALL CURRENT CONTENT as the game has today. That includes 9 character slots and access to every thing that is there TODAY. However, after this new model goes live, ALL PLAYERS will have pay for new content regardless only with WB/Turbine points.....but only NEW content.
While I dislike this change, to be truthful and fair about what is being offered has to be put into the proper context.
yes... after looking at the fine print I believe you are correct. We do get to keep our character slots if we have those expansions. So that should be a relief to many. thanks!
I was recalling that in ddo they changed the charcter limit and offered me to buy my characters back. Which I didn't.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
that may or may not be true. They way that it is supposed to work (supposed to...) is that players who have purchased the expansions get everything in that expansion and essentially will not be affected. Of course there are some differences such as the reduction of character slots from 9 to 5 (hmmm I feel a song coming on...).
What remains to be seen is how they do the expansions going forward. Technically everything in that expansion which is added crafting tiers, added levels, quests, etc are included in the regular and lifer expansion.
So now let's see if they keep their word.
See if they keep their word? just look at DDO. Sure, DDO is not a big whore like Allods Online but it is a whore nonetheless. They introdcued a new class that is cash shop only (not included in sub price), they have tweaked drops to make buying more necessary, they posted some pretty rare items on cash shop (purchasing in game advantages), and that whole SuperRewards Offer Wall which is about as nasty and low down dirty as it gets. Oh yeah, don't forget to add to the mix the cheap server/network that will follow the move - ask a DDO player, a paying subscriber, about going weeks without being able to play due to Turbine's crappy on-the-cheap servers.
I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
that may or may not be true. They way that it is supposed to work (supposed to...) is that players who have purchased the expansions get everything in that expansion and essentially will not be affected. Of course there are some differences such as the reduction of character slots from 9 to 5 (hmmm I feel a song coming on...).
What remains to be seen is how they do the expansions going forward. Technically everything in that expansion which is added crafting tiers, added levels, quests, etc are included in the regular and lifer expansion.
So now let's see if they keep their word.
See if they keep their word? just look at DDO. Sure, DDO is not a big whore like Allods Online but it is a whore nonetheless. They introdcued a new class that is cash shop only (not included in sub price), they have tweaked drops to make buying more necessary, they posted some pretty rare items on cash shop (purchasing in game advantages), and that whole SuperRewards Offer Wall which is about as nasty and low down dirty as it gets. Oh yeah, don't forget to add to the mix the cheap server/network that will follow the move - ask a DDO player, a paying subscriber, about going weeks without being able to play due to Turbine's crappy on-the-cheap servers.
Agree that the offer wall is pretty bad, and cant really comment on the server thing since ive never had a problem myself and considering the number of people already playing LOTRO and the increased profit that this change will likely bring switching it to a server thats worse than what they have now would be just plain stupid business.
But for stuff like classes... seriously i dont get what is so hard about this. When did DDO, LOTRO, or nearly any MMO out there ever introduce new classes to a game and give them to you for free? They are 99% of the time part of an expansion pack which you pay for, regardless of pricing model. How is making you pay for new classes / features / content suddenly a bad thing, yet it was ok before?
have any of you played DDO online? Do any of you have any clue how easy it is to get the coins required to purchase these unlockable characters for no money at all? do you? cause it doesn't appear that any of you have any idea what you're talking about. The DDO system is probably the most perfect F2P system currently out there.
I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
that may or may not be true. They way that it is supposed to work (supposed to...) is that players who have purchased the expansions get everything in that expansion and essentially will not be affected. Of course there are some differences such as the reduction of character slots from 9 to 5 (hmmm I feel a song coming on...).
What remains to be seen is how they do the expansions going forward. Technically everything in that expansion which is added crafting tiers, added levels, quests, etc are included in the regular and lifer expansion.
So now let's see if they keep their word.
See if they keep their word? just look at DDO. Sure, DDO is not a big whore like Allods Online but it is a whore nonetheless. They introdcued a new class that is cash shop only (not included in sub price), they have tweaked drops to make buying more necessary, they posted some pretty rare items on cash shop (purchasing in game advantages), and that whole SuperRewards Offer Wall which is about as nasty and low down dirty as it gets. Oh yeah, don't forget to add to the mix the cheap server/network that will follow the move - ask a DDO player, a paying subscriber, about going weeks without being able to play due to Turbine's crappy on-the-cheap servers.
my experience in DDO was pretty much the same after it went "f2p" as prior to it going free to play. I think the only thing I spent money on was that Favored Soul class. which I enjoyed quite a bit actually.
Other than that I played it exactly like I played it before it went f2p. However, I didn't play the heck out of the game and played it casually.
The offer wall seems scummy to me but I don't like advertsing stuff like that so that is my issue. I also tend to refuse coupons and don't use supermarket special rewards cards. But again, that's my thing.
Since I know LOTRO pretty well and since I'm very familiar with it I'll hold judgment until I see it in swing and experience it over time.
I've signed up for the beta precisely so I could see how it worked and what they offered.
As it stands right now I have no problem with it as I have a sub and can use those points per month to make me look less like a clown.
If going forth I feel that they are offering too much or I feel unduly nickel and dimed then I can always hit the "cancel" button.
I'm just not a rageful, feeling the injustice, fist to the heavens type of person until I truly know all the info and in some cases have experienced it. I've seen too many people try to convince me of something only for me to expereince it and realize they were way off base. I'll just wait and see. I do know they will try to do some pretty icky thigns like that stupid wall but I have to sit through movies with car commercials before them.
That is the biggest crime as we are paying to be advertised to. Still, if i want to see the movie on the big screen that is the price I pay. We all have our own selves to answer to at the end of the day.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It isn't about rage or anger - just having your eyes open. My objections are not so much to the way these Hybrid models are emerging today but to where it will enevitably lead tommorow. People need to realize these DEVs are trying to lure people in to this model so they can, down the road, go Farmville on people and cash in.
Originally posted by Sovrath
If going forth I feel that they are offering too much or I feel unduly nickel and dimed then I can always hit the "cancel" button.
F2P games are about DEVs desiging ways for players to need the cash shop - period and that leads to bad things, sooner or later. P2P is about you enjoying the experience and wanting to come back for another month. There is a big difference nad people had better wake up to it before they find all games going "F2P" and then escalating the grind to encoruage cash shop sales. It is like wireless carriers or ISPs - one or two go tiered then 3 or 4 then when it is common the tiers get lower and lower caps and higher and higher costs.
Sorry, but yes, we did get FREE (so-called) updates at least 2 to 3 times per year. That will now change to updates that you can pay for in the item store.
What are you basing that on? Historically, F2P MMOs have always provided updated content on a regular basis. They also offer more live events and more elaborate holiday/seasonal content than most subscription MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It isn't about rage or anger - just having your eyes open. F2P games are about DEVs desiging ways for players to need the cash shop - period and that leads to bad things, sooner or later. P2P is about you enjoying the experience and wanting to come back for another month. There is a big difference nad people had better wake up to it before they find all games going "F2P" and then escalating the grind to encoruage cash shop sales. It is like wireless carriers or ISPs - one or two go tiered then 3 or 4 then when it is common the tiers get lower and lower caps and higher and higher costs.
Maybe.
Lately I see pay to play as taking forever to get any new content out there and when it does finally come it's "so so" at best.
One of the things I like about the turbins system is that it might be possible to have a steady stream of new content that I can do without having to wait months and months for it. I've cancelled my sub twice because I ran out of things that I wanted to do.
When Turbine started this whole f2p venture I was told that the idea was to
A, give players who didn't want to pay a subscrtipton a chance to play the game and pick and choose what they wanted
B, Give an incentive to players to move to a subscription if they found that they were paying more money than the sub price per month
C, that the subscribers would would still get the regular content that they always got.
So again, I'll have to see. I want to see how they do expansions and how they add new content outside of those expansions.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It isn't about rage or anger - just having your eyes open. My objections are not so much to the way these Hybrid models are emerging today but to where it will enevitably lead tommorow. People need to realize these DEVs are trying to lure people in to this model so they can, down the road, go Farmville on people and cash in.
Originally posted by Sovrath
If going forth I feel that they are offering too much or I feel unduly nickel and dimed then I can always hit the "cancel" button.
F2P games are about DEVs desiging ways for players to need the cash shop - period and that leads to bad things, sooner or later. P2P is about you enjoying the experience and wanting to come back for another month. There is a big difference nad people had better wake up to it before they find all games going "F2P" and then escalating the grind to encoruage cash shop sales. It is like wireless carriers or ISPs - one or two go tiered then 3 or 4 then when it is common the tiers get lower and lower caps and higher and higher costs.
Come on you cant really be that blind can you. Do you honestly think P2P devs design their games simply for your enjoyment, and rely solely on that to keep you coming back and paying them? P2P devs are just as bad as F2P when it comes to adding in things to make you want to spend more money. Do you really think that all the grinding and timesinks to get some of the things in P2P games are needed and worthwile? They dont design them to be fun as much a sthey design them to be addicting, to keep you wanting to do them no matte rhow tedious and repetetive and pointless they are.
Now im not saying all P2P devs are that way, cause thats wrong and i know different companies have different practices and ethics and goals. but im sure many of us know who the big culprits are when it comes to stuff like that. Thing is, im openminded and intelligent enough to realize its ridiculous to throw all F2P devs into one group, just like it is with P2P devs. Different companies do things differently, and over the past couple years we have seen several F2P games break away from the old stereotype of being horrible quality pay 2 win grinders.
The biggest differenc eI see between P2P and F2P is this:
P2P usually requires features that prey on addictive habits to keep you subscribing and giving them money on a monthly basis.
F2P needs to give you a reason to want to buy some stuff, but you can spend it directly on whatever purchase you feel is worth it and the rest you get for free.
Beyond that, it just comes down to apersonal taste in games regardless of pricing. Ive played some really really horrible P2Ps and ive played some really good ones. Ive played some really horrible F2Ps and some really good ones. bad games an dgood games are not exclusive to either pricing model.
Sorry, but yes, we did get FREE (so-called) updates at least 2 to 3 times per year. That will now change to updates that you can pay for in the item store.
What are you basing that on? Historically, F2P MMOs have always provided updated content on a regular basis. They also offer more live events and more elaborate holiday/seasonal content than most subscription MMOs.
Thats another good point i hadnt even really thought much about before, but now that i think about it...
Overall id have to agree with that. Ive seen more special events and holiday/seasonal updates/content/changes amongst F2Ps than most P2Ps that I play. That also goes for things like random events with GMs popping up and getting people together for some sort of contest to win prizes (usually a pretty decent amount of $ worth of cash shop stuff). Although, I have to say that while it seems more common in F2Ps, when a P2P does do a special holiday/seasonal thing it is does tend to be a bigger & better event. Phantasy Star was one of my favorites when it come to their holiday content.
I gues id have to say these types of things are more widespread, so you have a better chance of finding it in F2P. However if you do happen to pick a P2P that does it, theres a pretty good chance that it will be more well done than in an F2P.
Again, im sure it depends on the specific games you choose to play, but im just speaking from my own personal experiences in games.
I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
EXACTLY. A subscription is diminished as it no longer gives you full access to the game it just gives you access to what is in the game now - new stuff (like Favored Soul class in DDO) is sold on cash shop. Not the worst thing ever but it is neither free to play nor is it paying a sub to keep things as they are now. And for lifers, I think they really get the shaft as they will have to buy stuff in the cash shop to avoid the enivitable increasing grinds for commons things or the 'new' stuff such as I mentioned originally.
First of all, how can you deny that Turbine needs to make money? The Favored Soul class was added to DDO just as Rune Keeper or Warden were added as classes that you had to BUY in and expansion for LOTRO. If you had a subscription to LOTRO or were a Lifer, you didn't get these things free. These additions still require purchase. Give me a break.
Also, going foreward, the content updates will continue while at the same time Turbine is giving VIP players Points to spend on those conent updates. You're still getting them free, unless you blow all your free points on cosmetic dresses. But if you don't blow all your Points on dresses, you'll be able to spend them on the content updates.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
When you're level capped and trying to get into instance or raid groups and don't have your full trait slots because you didn't want to buy them how free are you going to feel about choosing whether to buy those or not. No group is going to take you unless you spend money to be at the top of your game. Well, unless you want to make a kinship that only lets gimped characters in it. Then you can all raid DN over and over and claim server first for the only gimped all hunter group to complete the raid (I'm just making a little joke there). The bottom line is even if you don't raid those trait slots are critical to class functionality. I really hope they pull that idea out before launch. It's fricken idiotic.
All I'm trying to say is be careful how enthusiastic you are before you know how it ends up playing. It may work out fine, but my past experience is that Turbine has a long standing tendency to under deliver. LIs, Mirkwood, Radiance Gear, number of content updates promised, skills added, virtues, trait lines, pvp (face it the moors is pathetic), hobbies, and more.
The highlighted portion of your first paragraph is precisely the mindset that illustrates what's wrong with MMO communities these days. Ugh.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
When you're level capped and trying to get into instance or raid groups and don't have your full trait slots because you didn't want to buy them how free are you going to feel about choosing whether to buy those or not. No group is going to take you unless you spend money to be at the top of your game. Well, unless you want to make a kinship that only lets gimped characters in it.
Wow. I'd say that right there is a greater example of what's wrong with MMOs than any game mechanic or business model. When you come join us in LOTRO, Torv, please leave your DKPs and gearscore at the door.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
When you're level capped and trying to get into instance or raid groups and don't have your full trait slots because you didn't want to buy them how free are you going to feel about choosing whether to buy those or not. No group is going to take you unless you spend money to be at the top of your game. Well, unless you want to make a kinship that only lets gimped characters in it. Then you can all raid DN over and over and claim server first for the only gimped all hunter group to complete the raid (I'm just making a little joke there). The bottom line is even if you don't raid those trait slots are critical to class functionality. I really hope they pull that idea out before launch. It's fricken idiotic.
All I'm trying to say is be careful how enthusiastic you are before you know how it ends up playing. It may work out fine, but my past experience is that Turbine has a long standing tendency to under deliver. LIs, Mirkwood, Radiance Gear, number of content updates promised, skills added, virtues, trait lines, pvp (face it the moors is pathetic), hobbies, and more.
Here's what I don't understand...this poster is angry because in this hypothetical his f2p character won't compete with players who are subscribed to the game via VIP status. Because his f2p character can't compete (and it may or may not be able to), he feels forced to subscribe to the game. Let me ask you this: Right now, if you stop subscribing to the game, how does your character compete with other Raid participants? That's a rhetorical question because your character doesn't compete--your account is locked out until you pay your subscription fee.
So this poster is pissed that he can't play for free and access all conent. Got it.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
When you're level capped and trying to get into instance or raid groups and don't have your full trait slots because you didn't want to buy them how free are you going to feel about choosing whether to buy those or not. No group is going to take you unless you spend money to be at the top of your game. Well, unless you want to make a kinship that only lets gimped characters in it.
Wow. I'd say that right there is a greater example of what's wrong with MMOs than any game mechanic or business model. When you come join us in LOTRO, Torv, please leave your DKPs and gearscore at the door.
I've been playing that game since open beta (that's 3 years just so you know). I know exactly how the game plays and I'm telling you how it is not how I would like it to be. So get of your high horse and come down to reality. You don't want to face it fine with me, but cutting off traits unless you buy slots is huge. Try playing at 65 with less than a full trait set. Not only will groups boot you (if they even take you), but soloing (a big part of the game) is going to suck. Go ahead and believe that Turbine sharts rainbows if you want. I know better.
In DDO you earn items that can be used in the store correct? I wonder if they will allow f2p players to do the same and if they do then it's more than possible that they will have to spend them on trait slots.
Because that is true, you can't really get into extremely competitive groups with only two slots.
But here's the deal, the idea is to either
A, get playres to pony up some cash or
B, subscribe
If players feel they need to spend an innordinate amount of money then they should sub.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
LotRO F2S hasn't gone live yet, so hopefully players can let Turbine know what they like and what doesn't work. Screwing with traits in the cash shop is a bad idea. Encourage Turbine to put things in the shop that make the game more fun, not have them make the game less fun and then let you buy that back.
Well, that I completely agree with.
That's the problem with the whole f2p model that Turbine has come up with. The a la carte stuff is fine. But piece mealing the characters is not.
I can appreciate them charing for quest areas and extra storage and character slots (for the f2p folks) but unless there is a way to earn points in game that can be used in the store then it seems a bit "not so right" to limit traits and virtues.
I suppose this is Patience's response to the whole Shadows of Angmar content thing:
Essentially, it's like this: When you purchased Shadows of Angmar, you had (have) to have a subscription to access that content. If you no longer subscribe, you lose access to it.
Under the new model, even if you drop your subscription you can keep playing for free, but not everything is available to you like it is for subscribers. You won't lose access to all of the SOA content, but you will lose access to some of it unless you purchase it. As it stands now, under the current plan you can play some of the starting content and the epic storyline up to Moria for free, and the landscape up to Moria is free as well.
One of the things the beta is for is to help us determine which parts, if any, of the additional content from SOA should be made free and which should be made purchasable and for how much.
So in other words, no final answer yet, but the beta will help it get finalized!
That's the issue, long term subscribers should be given enough points to re-purchase all the content that they have already paid for. If that's the way it happens then that's the best solution but Long term subscribers (24 months or older) should not have to re-purchase with $, any SOA content that they have already paid for.
Don't forget that in addition to the points you're getting if you continue to subscribe until launch, you also will earn points in the game through gameplay, so you'll be able to purchase some of the content if you choose to, without paying any real money for it.
Your subscription didn't cover content; it covered your access to the servers. Right now if you stop your subscription, you lose *all* access to the game. Under the new model if you drop your subscription, you can still keep playing the game with limitations that can be overcome.
And this is an interesting post. You can take this how you like:
I DID ask one other question earlier, though. Will paid expansions be sold as a complete unit, with all quests, raids, etc. or will a new zone and the quests within it be sold separately? I am referring only to paid expansions, not free content updates.
The current plan is that expansions will be available as both single units, or a la carte. In a way, you could look at an expansion as a bundle; buying the expansion will cost less than buying it a la carte.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but the Favoured soul class IS included for VIPs in DDO. You just need to unlock it by gaining enough favor, which is EXACTLY what you had to do with new classes/features before F2P
So can we lock this now?
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Oh yeah, don't forget to add to the mix the cheap server/network that will follow the move - ask a DDO player, a paying subscriber, about going weeks without being able to play due to Turbine's crappy on-the-cheap servers.
What????? Man when you decide to kill any chance of creditablility you go whole hog don't you?
I've never, ever had this problem; extended outages after / as part of a maint period? Yea, maybe half a dozen? times spread out over when the game was P2p and now F2p, but hey SWG had problems, AoC, PotBS ...... see a trend? Every game has outages, but never for weeks at a time.
* Purchasers of the Mines of Moria™ expansion get access to the Mines of Moria region and content, premium classes (Rune-Keeper and Warden), legendary items feature, Tier 6 crafting feature, 2 extra character slots and a level cap of 60. Purchasers of the Siege of Mirkwood™ expansion get access to the Siege of Mirkwood region and content, a level cap of 65 and the Siege of Mirkwood skirmishes.
If you already paid for the stuff by buying the expansions & subbing, you will not need to buy it again. NOTHING changes for you. Complaining about future, nonexistant content that you have no idea wether or not will ever be in the game is pointless. Wether the game is F2P or P2P you still have to pay for it, expansions dont come free.
/close thread
That's right!
I have the MoM and SoM expansions, plus the Adventure Pack. As a VIP I get to keep those because I paid for them. I am fully prepared to pay for further expansions when they happen. I get to keep my characters, I get to keep all my inventory, my houses, my gold. If I want something I can either work for it or pay for it. Sometimes now, I don't want to grind, so I'll go to the AH and I'll buy something with my gold. With the F2P model I'll have those free points I'll accumulate to buy expansions or whatever I want from the LOTRO store.
I fail to see how anything in the new model is a rip-off. As a business owner in real life when I'm not gaming, I find ways to make more money. Turbine/WB are doing that so that the game endures. As a LOTRO founder, I am happy that they are taking steps to keep the game going. I have decided that I will reserve all my criticism or concerns until the fall.
When you enjoy a game as much as I enjoy LOTRO, and have invested as much time and money as I have in the game, you don't just walk away at the first sign of trouble. Well, at least my feelings are that most of the core players are just taking a wait and see attitude and will just enjoy the game for the summer.
People, please stop with the doom and gloom predictions, already. Methinks they are getting a tad old.
This link is quite interesting as it shows how many people have misconceptions about what they actually get when they buy a boxed mmo, and also why I think many future mmo's will adopt a similar model to what Turbine is doing.
What people have to remember is that an MMO is essentially a service and what you're monthly sub is actually paying for is access to that service, kind of like your cell phone or cable service. It is not in fact an end product like many believe and I think that when people buy an mmo off the shelf it gives then a sense that they are actually buying the specific content itself.
LotRO F2S hasn't gone live yet, so hopefully players can let Turbine know what they like and what doesn't work. Screwing with traits in the cash shop is a bad idea. Encourage Turbine to put things in the shop that make the game more fun, not have them make the game less fun and then let you buy that back.
Well, that I completely agree with.
That's the problem with the whole f2p model that Turbine has come up with. The a la carte stuff is fine. But piece mealing the characters is not.
I can appreciate them charing for quest areas and extra storage and character slots (for the f2p folks) but unless there is a way to earn points in game that can be used in the store then it seems a bit "not so right" to limit traits and virtues.
I suppose this is Patience's response to the whole Shadows of Angmar content thing:
Essentially, it's like this: When you purchased Shadows of Angmar, you had (have) to have a subscription to access that content. If you no longer subscribe, you lose access to it.
Under the new model, even if you drop your subscription you can keep playing for free, but not everything is available to you like it is for subscribers. You won't lose access to all of the SOA content, but you will lose access to some of it unless you purchase it. As it stands now, under the current plan you can play some of the starting content and the epic storyline up to Moria for free, and the landscape up to Moria is free as well.
One of the things the beta is for is to help us determine which parts, if any, of the additional content from SOA should be made free and which should be made purchasable and for how much.
So in other words, no final answer yet, but the beta will help it get finalized!
That's the issue, long term subscribers should be given enough points to re-purchase all the content that they have already paid for. If that's the way it happens then that's the best solution but Long term subscribers (24 months or older) should not have to re-purchase with $, any SOA content that they have already paid for.
Don't forget that in addition to the points you're getting if you continue to subscribe until launch, you also will earn points in the game through gameplay, so you'll be able to purchase some of the content if you choose to, without paying any real money for it.
Your subscription didn't cover content; it covered your access to the servers. Right now if you stop your subscription, you lose *all* access to the game. Under the new model if you drop your subscription, you can still keep playing the game with limitations that can be overcome.
And this is an interesting post. You can take this how you like:
I DID ask one other question earlier, though. Will paid expansions be sold as a complete unit, with all quests, raids, etc. or will a new zone and the quests within it be sold separately? I am referring only to paid expansions, not free content updates.
The current plan is that expansions will be available as both single units, or a la carte. In a way, you could look at an expansion as a bundle; buying the expansion will cost less than buying it a la carte.
Interesting links. Thanks. I've also been following this thread by Pasharu which talks about the more real, deeper problems with the game that I think F2S isn't going to solve. Turbine will have to address those if it plans on remaining successful with this title.
I cancelled my sub last month. When it does go live I'll be curious to see what I'll have available (as far as content) since I purchased Shadows, Moria, and MIrkwood all preorder along with AdPack. I'm not going to remain subbed until they launch because I'll only make about 2000 points or so (3 years + 500 for the month) and I don't think there is a founder bonus (I've lost founder status anyway now). It would cost me a bit under $60 to remain subbed until then (my monthly rate was 9.69/mo under a 3 month plan). I would think I could buy back whatever they took from me for that plus some. I'm curious to see if I can buy most of the missing pieces and have most of the benefits of a VIP without actually having to pay the sub.
I just wish they were a little more up front about their developement plans. I really do feel like they've milke us with the Mirkwood release and very sparse content updates. I think they knew where they were going a long time ago and just weren't honest. I still like their games, but I certainly don't appreciate or have any respect for them as a dev studio.
You don't lose your founder status. I cancelled a while ago, was not playing for 7-8 months. When I tried to re-sub, I was offered the same founder deal (9,99/mth) as earlier.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Comments
EXACTLY. A subscription is diminished as it no longer gives you full access to the game it just gives you access to what is in the game now - new stuff (like Favored Soul class in DDO) is sold on cash shop. Not the worst thing ever but it is neither free to play nor is it paying a sub to keep things as they are now. And for lifers, I think they really get the shaft as they will have to buy stuff in the cash shop to avoid the enivitable increasing grinds for commons things or the 'new' stuff such as I mentioned originally.
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yes... after looking at the fine print I believe you are correct. We do get to keep our character slots if we have those expansions. So that should be a relief to many. thanks!
I was recalling that in ddo they changed the charcter limit and offered me to buy my characters back. Which I didn't.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
See if they keep their word? just look at DDO. Sure, DDO is not a big whore like Allods Online but it is a whore nonetheless. They introdcued a new class that is cash shop only (not included in sub price), they have tweaked drops to make buying more necessary, they posted some pretty rare items on cash shop (purchasing in game advantages), and that whole SuperRewards Offer Wall which is about as nasty and low down dirty as it gets. Oh yeah, don't forget to add to the mix the cheap server/network that will follow the move - ask a DDO player, a paying subscriber, about going weeks without being able to play due to Turbine's crappy on-the-cheap servers.
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Agree that the offer wall is pretty bad, and cant really comment on the server thing since ive never had a problem myself and considering the number of people already playing LOTRO and the increased profit that this change will likely bring switching it to a server thats worse than what they have now would be just plain stupid business.
But for stuff like classes... seriously i dont get what is so hard about this. When did DDO, LOTRO, or nearly any MMO out there ever introduce new classes to a game and give them to you for free? They are 99% of the time part of an expansion pack which you pay for, regardless of pricing model. How is making you pay for new classes / features / content suddenly a bad thing, yet it was ok before?
have any of you played DDO online? Do any of you have any clue how easy it is to get the coins required to purchase these unlockable characters for no money at all? do you? cause it doesn't appear that any of you have any idea what you're talking about. The DDO system is probably the most perfect F2P system currently out there.
my experience in DDO was pretty much the same after it went "f2p" as prior to it going free to play. I think the only thing I spent money on was that Favored Soul class. which I enjoyed quite a bit actually.
Other than that I played it exactly like I played it before it went f2p. However, I didn't play the heck out of the game and played it casually.
The offer wall seems scummy to me but I don't like advertsing stuff like that so that is my issue. I also tend to refuse coupons and don't use supermarket special rewards cards. But again, that's my thing.
Since I know LOTRO pretty well and since I'm very familiar with it I'll hold judgment until I see it in swing and experience it over time.
I've signed up for the beta precisely so I could see how it worked and what they offered.
As it stands right now I have no problem with it as I have a sub and can use those points per month to make me look less like a clown.
If going forth I feel that they are offering too much or I feel unduly nickel and dimed then I can always hit the "cancel" button.
I'm just not a rageful, feeling the injustice, fist to the heavens type of person until I truly know all the info and in some cases have experienced it. I've seen too many people try to convince me of something only for me to expereince it and realize they were way off base. I'll just wait and see. I do know they will try to do some pretty icky thigns like that stupid wall but I have to sit through movies with car commercials before them.
That is the biggest crime as we are paying to be advertised to. Still, if i want to see the movie on the big screen that is the price I pay. We all have our own selves to answer to at the end of the day.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It isn't about rage or anger - just having your eyes open. My objections are not so much to the way these Hybrid models are emerging today but to where it will enevitably lead tommorow. People need to realize these DEVs are trying to lure people in to this model so they can, down the road, go Farmville on people and cash in.
F2P games are about DEVs desiging ways for players to need the cash shop - period and that leads to bad things, sooner or later. P2P is about you enjoying the experience and wanting to come back for another month. There is a big difference nad people had better wake up to it before they find all games going "F2P" and then escalating the grind to encoruage cash shop sales. It is like wireless carriers or ISPs - one or two go tiered then 3 or 4 then when it is common the tiers get lower and lower caps and higher and higher costs.
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What are you basing that on? Historically, F2P MMOs have always provided updated content on a regular basis. They also offer more live events and more elaborate holiday/seasonal content than most subscription MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Maybe.
Lately I see pay to play as taking forever to get any new content out there and when it does finally come it's "so so" at best.
One of the things I like about the turbins system is that it might be possible to have a steady stream of new content that I can do without having to wait months and months for it. I've cancelled my sub twice because I ran out of things that I wanted to do.
When Turbine started this whole f2p venture I was told that the idea was to
A, give players who didn't want to pay a subscrtipton a chance to play the game and pick and choose what they wanted
B, Give an incentive to players to move to a subscription if they found that they were paying more money than the sub price per month
C, that the subscribers would would still get the regular content that they always got.
So again, I'll have to see. I want to see how they do expansions and how they add new content outside of those expansions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
Come on you cant really be that blind can you. Do you honestly think P2P devs design their games simply for your enjoyment, and rely solely on that to keep you coming back and paying them? P2P devs are just as bad as F2P when it comes to adding in things to make you want to spend more money. Do you really think that all the grinding and timesinks to get some of the things in P2P games are needed and worthwile? They dont design them to be fun as much a sthey design them to be addicting, to keep you wanting to do them no matte rhow tedious and repetetive and pointless they are.
Now im not saying all P2P devs are that way, cause thats wrong and i know different companies have different practices and ethics and goals. but im sure many of us know who the big culprits are when it comes to stuff like that. Thing is, im openminded and intelligent enough to realize its ridiculous to throw all F2P devs into one group, just like it is with P2P devs. Different companies do things differently, and over the past couple years we have seen several F2P games break away from the old stereotype of being horrible quality pay 2 win grinders.
The biggest differenc eI see between P2P and F2P is this:
P2P usually requires features that prey on addictive habits to keep you subscribing and giving them money on a monthly basis.
F2P needs to give you a reason to want to buy some stuff, but you can spend it directly on whatever purchase you feel is worth it and the rest you get for free.
Beyond that, it just comes down to apersonal taste in games regardless of pricing. Ive played some really really horrible P2Ps and ive played some really good ones. Ive played some really horrible F2Ps and some really good ones. bad games an dgood games are not exclusive to either pricing model.
Thats another good point i hadnt even really thought much about before, but now that i think about it...
Overall id have to agree with that. Ive seen more special events and holiday/seasonal updates/content/changes amongst F2Ps than most P2Ps that I play. That also goes for things like random events with GMs popping up and getting people together for some sort of contest to win prizes (usually a pretty decent amount of $ worth of cash shop stuff). Although, I have to say that while it seems more common in F2Ps, when a P2P does do a special holiday/seasonal thing it is does tend to be a bigger & better event. Phantasy Star was one of my favorites when it come to their holiday content.
I gues id have to say these types of things are more widespread, so you have a better chance of finding it in F2P. However if you do happen to pick a P2P that does it, theres a pretty good chance that it will be more well done than in an F2P.
Again, im sure it depends on the specific games you choose to play, but im just speaking from my own personal experiences in games.
First of all, how can you deny that Turbine needs to make money? The Favored Soul class was added to DDO just as Rune Keeper or Warden were added as classes that you had to BUY in and expansion for LOTRO. If you had a subscription to LOTRO or were a Lifer, you didn't get these things free. These additions still require purchase. Give me a break.
Also, going foreward, the content updates will continue while at the same time Turbine is giving VIP players Points to spend on those conent updates. You're still getting them free, unless you blow all your free points on cosmetic dresses. But if you don't blow all your Points on dresses, you'll be able to spend them on the content updates.
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Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
The highlighted portion of your first paragraph is precisely the mindset that illustrates what's wrong with MMO communities these days. Ugh.
Wow. I'd say that right there is a greater example of what's wrong with MMOs than any game mechanic or business model. When you come join us in LOTRO, Torv, please leave your DKPs and gearscore at the door.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Here's what I don't understand...this poster is angry because in this hypothetical his f2p character won't compete with players who are subscribed to the game via VIP status. Because his f2p character can't compete (and it may or may not be able to), he feels forced to subscribe to the game. Let me ask you this: Right now, if you stop subscribing to the game, how does your character compete with other Raid participants? That's a rhetorical question because your character doesn't compete--your account is locked out until you pay your subscription fee.
So this poster is pissed that he can't play for free and access all conent. Got it.
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Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
In DDO you earn items that can be used in the store correct? I wonder if they will allow f2p players to do the same and if they do then it's more than possible that they will have to spend them on trait slots.
Because that is true, you can't really get into extremely competitive groups with only two slots.
But here's the deal, the idea is to either
A, get playres to pony up some cash or
B, subscribe
If players feel they need to spend an innordinate amount of money then they should sub.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, that I completely agree with.
That's the problem with the whole f2p model that Turbine has come up with. The a la carte stuff is fine. But piece mealing the characters is not.
I can appreciate them charing for quest areas and extra storage and character slots (for the f2p folks) but unless there is a way to earn points in game that can be used in the store then it seems a bit "not so right" to limit traits and virtues.
I suppose this is Patience's response to the whole Shadows of Angmar content thing:
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=4705087&postcount=3
Essentially, it's like this: When you purchased Shadows of Angmar, you had (have) to have a subscription to access that content. If you no longer subscribe, you lose access to it.
Under the new model, even if you drop your subscription you can keep playing for free, but not everything is available to you like it is for subscribers. You won't lose access to all of the SOA content, but you will lose access to some of it unless you purchase it. As it stands now, under the current plan you can play some of the starting content and the epic storyline up to Moria for free, and the landscape up to Moria is free as well.
One of the things the beta is for is to help us determine which parts, if any, of the additional content from SOA should be made free and which should be made purchasable and for how much.
So in other words, no final answer yet, but the beta will help it get finalized!
Meghan
And another:
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=4708149&postcount=97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BerensBane
That's the issue, long term subscribers should be given enough points to re-purchase all the content that they have already paid for. If that's the way it happens then that's the best solution but Long term subscribers (24 months or older) should not have to re-purchase with $, any SOA content that they have already paid for.
Don't forget that in addition to the points you're getting if you continue to subscribe until launch, you also will earn points in the game through gameplay, so you'll be able to purchase some of the content if you choose to, without paying any real money for it.
Your subscription didn't cover content; it covered your access to the servers. Right now if you stop your subscription, you lose *all* access to the game. Under the new model if you drop your subscription, you can still keep playing the game with limitations that can be overcome.
And this is an interesting post. You can take this how you like:
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=4711877&postcount=295
And one more concerning how expansions will be:
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=4711344&postcount=508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silinar
I DID ask one other question earlier, though. Will paid expansions be sold as a complete unit, with all quests, raids, etc. or will a new zone and the quests within it be sold separately? I am referring only to paid expansions, not free content updates.
The current plan is that expansions will be available as both single units, or a la carte. In a way, you could look at an expansion as a bundle; buying the expansion will cost less than buying it a la carte.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Another game going for scalable F2P model. Best luck Turbine!
It seems that soon enough, similar payment model will become a standard for MMO market.
And people say here devs do not listen to their players -> lol
I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but the Favoured soul class IS included for VIPs in DDO. You just need to unlock it by gaining enough favor, which is EXACTLY what you had to do with new classes/features before F2P
So can we lock this now?
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
What????? Man when you decide to kill any chance of creditablility you go whole hog don't you?
I've never, ever had this problem; extended outages after / as part of a maint period? Yea, maybe half a dozen? times spread out over when the game was P2p and now F2p, but hey SWG had problems, AoC, PotBS ...... see a trend? Every game has outages, but never for weeks at a time.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Nice try OP, we all know you waited 3 whole years for this, but you missed (again), as many have pointed out.
If you are a lifer, nothing changes.
If you have an active sub, when the F2P option for the game starts, nothing changes.
Heck, I can even keep my founder payment option (9.99 USD per month), and nothing changes.
F2P is just an extended trial for this game, milking to be done on those who still don't want to pay a monthly fee.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
That's right!
I have the MoM and SoM expansions, plus the Adventure Pack. As a VIP I get to keep those because I paid for them. I am fully prepared to pay for further expansions when they happen. I get to keep my characters, I get to keep all my inventory, my houses, my gold. If I want something I can either work for it or pay for it. Sometimes now, I don't want to grind, so I'll go to the AH and I'll buy something with my gold. With the F2P model I'll have those free points I'll accumulate to buy expansions or whatever I want from the LOTRO store.
I fail to see how anything in the new model is a rip-off. As a business owner in real life when I'm not gaming, I find ways to make more money. Turbine/WB are doing that so that the game endures. As a LOTRO founder, I am happy that they are taking steps to keep the game going. I have decided that I will reserve all my criticism or concerns until the fall.
When you enjoy a game as much as I enjoy LOTRO, and have invested as much time and money as I have in the game, you don't just walk away at the first sign of trouble. Well, at least my feelings are that most of the core players are just taking a wait and see attitude and will just enjoy the game for the summer.
People, please stop with the doom and gloom predictions, already. Methinks they are getting a tad old.
Tearose Underhill, Hobbit Hunter
RaisingtheShire.com
This link is quite interesting as it shows how many people have misconceptions about what they actually get when they buy a boxed mmo, and also why I think many future mmo's will adopt a similar model to what Turbine is doing.
What people have to remember is that an MMO is essentially a service and what you're monthly sub is actually paying for is access to that service, kind of like your cell phone or cable service. It is not in fact an end product like many believe and I think that when people buy an mmo off the shelf it gives then a sense that they are actually buying the specific content itself.
You don't lose your founder status. I cancelled a while ago, was not playing for 7-8 months. When I tried to re-sub, I was offered the same founder deal (9,99/mth) as earlier.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.