Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
Of course this is true. However, in a P2P model the only way DEVs have to make money is to improve the whole of the game to entice people to subscribe/buy. But in a F2P model they can make money without improving the game at all, in fact they most often make money by subtly or obviously making better parts of the game only avaialble (or only conveniently and reasonably available, i.e. big grinds) through the cash shop so in a way F2P games only make money by making the game experience worse with a solution to what has gotten worse conveniently in the cash shop.
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by AgtSmith
It isn't about rage or anger - just having your eyes open. My objections are not so much to the way these Hybrid models are emerging today but to where it will enevitably lead tommorow. People need to realize these DEVs are trying to lure people in to this model so they can, down the road, go Farmville on people and cash in.
Originally posted by Sovrath
If going forth I feel that they are offering too much or I feel unduly nickel and dimed then I can always hit the "cancel" button.
F2P games are about DEVs desiging ways for players to need the cash shop - period and that leads to bad things, sooner or later. P2P is about you enjoying the experience and wanting to come back for another month. There is a big difference nad people had better wake up to it before they find all games going "F2P" and then escalating the grind to encoruage cash shop sales. It is like wireless carriers or ISPs - one or two go tiered then 3 or 4 then when it is common the tiers get lower and lower caps and higher and higher costs.
Come on you cant really be that blind can you. Do you honestly think P2P devs design their games simply for your enjoyment, and rely solely on that to keep you coming back and paying them? P2P devs are just as bad as F2P when it comes to adding in things to make you want to spend more money. Do you really think that all the grinding and timesinks to get some of the things in P2P games are needed and worthwile? They dont design them to be fun as much a sthey design them to be addicting, to keep you wanting to do them no matte rhow tedious and repetetive and pointless they are.
Now im not saying all P2P devs are that way, cause thats wrong and i know different companies have different practices and ethics and goals. but im sure many of us know who the big culprits are when it comes to stuff like that. Thing is, im openminded and intelligent enough to realize its ridiculous to throw all F2P devs into one group, just like it is with P2P devs. Different companies do things differently, and over the past couple years we have seen several F2P games break away from the old stereotype of being horrible quality pay 2 win grinders.
I am not saying all DEVs and game houses do this well, or get it like they should - but the reality remains that they only make money by making the game more attractive or more enjoyable to players, period. F2P makes money if they find ways, and this becomes the driving force behind development enivitably, by finding ways to make players need the cash shop more and more.
Originally posted by Papadam
I dont know if this has been mentioned yet but the Favoured soul class IS included for VIPs in DDO. You just need to unlock it by gaining enough favor, which is EXACTLY what you had to do with new classes/features before F2P
So can we lock this now?
Uhm, not true - or at least very deceptive. Yes, you can unlock the new class but the grind is pretty severe and compared to wht you did to unlock Drow (a race, not a class) it is exponentially higher. As for classes, prior to Fav Soul no class required an in game grind, big or small, you are thinking of unlocking the Drow race and unlocking the 32 point build but those are not classes that was more an end game prestige type class.
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Encourage Turbine to put things in the shop that make the game more fun, not have them make the game less fun and then let you buy that back.
That is the jist of it really. F2P, or at least this hybrid type model, really does just carve up what is there now and try to arrange it so that going forward you will end up buying the better parts back rather than paying the one price and getting the good and bad parts alike.
Originally posted by Cerion
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by nAAtimus
I'm with Sovrath on this one. I, not the devs nor the game itself, choose whether or not I spend money on a game, regardless of its payment model.
When you're level capped and trying to get into instance or raid groups and don't have your full trait slots because you didn't want to buy them how free are you going to feel about choosing whether to buy those or not. No group is going to take you unless you spend money to be at the top of your game. Well, unless you want to make a kinship that only lets gimped characters in it. Then you can all raid DN over and over and claim server first for the only gimped all hunter group to complete the raid (I'm just making a little joke there). The bottom line is even if you don't raid those trait slots are critical to class functionality. I really hope they pull that idea out before launch. It's fricken idiotic.
All I'm trying to say is be careful how enthusiastic you are before you know how it ends up playing. It may work out fine, but my past experience is that Turbine has a long standing tendency to under deliver. LIs, Mirkwood, Radiance Gear, number of content updates promised, skills added, virtues, trait lines, pvp (face it the moors is pathetic), hobbies, and more.
Here's what I don't understand...this poster is angry because in this hypothetical his f2p character won't compete with players who are subscribed to the game via VIP status. Because his f2p character can't compete (and it may or may not be able to), he feels forced to subscribe to the game. Let me ask you this: Right now, if you stop subscribing to the game, how does your character compete with other Raid participants? That's a rhetorical question because your character doesn't compete--your account is locked out until you pay your subscription fee.
So this poster is pissed that he can't play for free and access all conent. Got it.
Actually, you could not be more wrong. I have zero interest in free 2 play games not because of the buying of game advantages or acehivements, though I do think that taints the gaame, but because I want my enjoyment of the game to directly relate to the DEVs income. It really is a simple concept, I fail to see why so many struggle to understand it or otherwise just don't follow.
In pay to play the DEVs earn money from the quality/popularity/enjoyment of the game, period. In free to play the DEVs earn money by how often a player needs/wants something from the cash shop, in essence. There is a huge difference in these to driving interests, HUGE. In the pay to play there is a contrary incentive to DEVs to make mindless grinds for essential or even mildly necessary items, not incentive to have popular content/items be unavailable to the bulk of the playerbase, etc.. But in free to play there is a direct incentive for normal acheievements in game and basic/necessary items to be made more rare or otherwise take more time to get because as they become more of a pain to get more people are encouraged to buy them on the cash shop.
Originally posted by DonnieBrasco
Nice try OP, we all know you waited 3 whole years for this, but you missed (again), as many have pointed out.
If you are a lifer, nothing changes.
If you have an active sub, when the F2P option for the game starts, nothing changes.
Heck, I can even keep my founder payment option (9.99 USD per month), and nothing changes.
F2P is just an extended trial for this game, milking to be done on those who still don't want to pay a monthly fee.
DB
Agree only in the sense that nothing changes from what you have now. But just like in DDO what will change is how the new stuff that comes to the game after it goes F2P is suddenly needing to be bought even as a lifer or sub player. DDO does this, so it is inarguable that LotRO will as well. You get what you got now, nothing changes in that regard - but going forward past F2P your sub (life or monthly) will most definitely NOT get you all the games pushes to live, period.
Look, it is this simple - as someone said last page with a subscription MMO you are paying for a service. You pay the monthly fee and you get the service for a month. The evidence, th eproof, that this move does change that is in the char itself forgetting the specifics - starting with F2P there are tiers of who gets what, there are mutiple servies, and there is no service on that chart that gets 'unlimited' in every category (forgetting just for now how many new categories there are after F2P). If it was the same as it is now the the VIP/lifer issue would be answer easily and without a chart, they would simply say "you get everything", the fact that the chart shows you do not get everything emphasises that this is a change from pay admission get full access to pay by the piece system for everyone.
You don't lose your founder status. I cancelled a while ago, was not playing for 7-8 months. When I tried to re-sub, I was offered the same founder deal (9,99/mth) as earlier.
DB
The $9.99/mo is a deal they've been running since around Christmas. I was paying 9.59/mo ($28.75) on the 3 month plan (I'm checking my account now). If I resub now I pay 29.97. I did stay long enough to get my discount at the Bard though.
That's true, I cancelled and lost my found status.
But that's the thing, I never want to be held hostage to a game with the threat of keeping better pricing. I never mind paying what I think is a reasonable price for my entertainment provided I"m getting good value.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
I don't think many people begrudge them wanting to make a buck, at the least I do not have a problem with them pursuing profit. The problem is that this drive to F2P is more about making more bucks carving up the service and selling it piecemeal (think of buying a happy meal as a package verse buying those items individually - individually they cost more). F2P is about monetiing the individual parts of a game that are either most attractive, most necessary, or most convenient and in that way it compels developers to alter design from making a great/fun game to making the cash shop items more wanted and needed.
Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
I don't think many people begrudge them wanting to make a buck, at the least I do not have a problem with them pursuing profit. The problem is that this drive to F2P is more about making more bucks carving up the service and selling it piecemeal (think of buying a happy meal as a package verse buying those items individually - individually they cost more). F2P is about monetiing the individual parts of a game that are either most attractive, most necessary, or most convenient and in that way it compels developers to alter design from making a great/fun game to making the cash shop items more wanted and needed.
Eloquently put. I agree whole heartedly.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
In pay to play the DEVs earn money from the quality/popularity/enjoyment of the game, period. In free to play the DEVs earn money by how often a player needs/wants something from the cash shop, in essence. There is a huge difference in these to driving interests, HUGE. In the pay to play there is a contrary incentive to DEVs to make mindless grinds for essential or even mildly necessary items, not incentive to have popular content/items be unavailable to the bulk of the playerbase, etc.. But in free to play there is a direct incentive for normal acheievements in game and basic/necessary items to be made more rare or otherwise take more time to get because as they become more of a pain to get more people are encouraged to buy them on the cash shop.
Here is where you are wrong it's not the Dev's that earn more from the popularity of the game, it's the investors and/or executives of the company that earn the big profits. Devs generally earn their standard fixed salaries and maybe get a bonus if the game does extremely well. The Devs make the game because they love making and playing games and because they are well payed to make them.
Look, it is this simple - as someone said last page with a subscription MMO you are paying for a service. You pay the monthly fee and you get the service for a month. The evidence, th eproof, that this move does change that is in the char itself forgetting the specifics - starting with F2P there are tiers of who gets what, there are mutiple servies, and there is no service on that chart that gets 'unlimited' in every category (forgetting just for now how many new categories there are after F2P). If it was the same as it is now the the VIP/lifer issue would be answer easily and without a chart, they would simply say "you get everything", the fact that the chart shows you do not get everything emphasises that this is a change from pay admission get full access to pay by the piece system for everyone.
But as VIP's/Lifers we DON'T get everything included with our subscription, we still have to pay $20-$40 for our expansions to get access to the new features and areas that they contain. The only difference between the old p2p format and the new f2p format is that subscribers are getting a monthly allowance from turbine that they can either choose to save up to buy future xpacs, or use to spend on fluff items when they want.
Lifetime subs are essentially getting paid about $7 a month from turbine when you factor in the value of the 500 points they get each month.
I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
I think that probably is a better description for those who are inclined to see more of the content than someone who just logs in and pays nothing.
and of course, at some point it makes more sense to subscribe.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am a current subscriber that has all the expansions and the adventure pack. Bottom line is if Ihave to buy back anything I already have, I'm done. Other than that, I'm taking a wait-and-see approach to what this does to the game and community, because I've never played a "F2P" game before.
I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
I think that probably is a better description for those who are inclined to see more of the content than someone who just logs in and pays nothing.
and of course, at some point it makes more sense to subscribe.
I agree as well. This is more about offering alternate payment models which doesn't not make it the equivalent of a F2P game that is designed from the ground up around its cash shop.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
I don't think many people begrudge them wanting to make a buck, at the least I do not have a problem with them pursuing profit. The problem is that this drive to F2P is more about making more bucks carving up the service and selling it piecemeal (think of buying a happy meal as a package verse buying those items individually - individually they cost more). F2P is about monetiing the individual parts of a game that are either most attractive, most necessary, or most convenient and in that way it compels developers to alter design from making a great/fun game to making the cash shop items more wanted and needed.
I disagree, I don't think they were making as much money as you think they were as a P2P only game.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
In pay to play the DEVs earn money from the quality/popularity/enjoyment of the game, period. In free to play the DEVs earn money by how often a player needs/wants something from the cash shop, in essence. There is a huge difference in these to driving interests, HUGE. In the pay to play there is a contrary incentive to DEVs to make mindless grinds for essential or even mildly necessary items, not incentive to have popular content/items be unavailable to the bulk of the playerbase, etc.. But in free to play there is a direct incentive for normal acheievements in game and basic/necessary items to be made more rare or otherwise take more time to get because as they become more of a pain to get more people are encouraged to buy them on the cash shop.
Here is where you are wrong it's not the Dev's that earn more from the popularity of the game, it's the investors and/or executives of the company that earn the big profits. Devs generally earn their standard fixed salaries and maybe get a bonus if the game does extremely well. The Devs make the game because they love making and playing games and because they are well payed to make them.
Look, it is this simple - as someone said last page with a subscription MMO you are paying for a service. You pay the monthly fee and you get the service for a month. The evidence, th eproof, that this move does change that is in the char itself forgetting the specifics - starting with F2P there are tiers of who gets what, there are mutiple servies, and there is no service on that chart that gets 'unlimited' in every category (forgetting just for now how many new categories there are after F2P). If it was the same as it is now the the VIP/lifer issue would be answer easily and without a chart, they would simply say "you get everything", the fact that the chart shows you do not get everything emphasises that this is a change from pay admission get full access to pay by the piece system for everyone.
But as VIP's/Lifers we DON'T get everything included with our subscription, we still have to pay $20-$40 for our expansions to get access to the new features and areas that they contain. The only difference between the old p2p format and the new f2p format is that subscribers are getting a monthly allowance from turbine that they can either choose to save up to buy future xpacs, or use to spend on fluff items when they want.
Lifetime subs are essentially getting paid about $7 a month from turbine when you factor in the value of the 500 points they get each month.
I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
Again, all fine and dandy but for the fact that once the shift occurs the motivation for devs is clear - design more need/want for people to use the cash shop so the game as it is today changes over time. It has happened in DDO, it will happen in LotRO - the lure of increasing profits by increasing need to use the cash shop dictates as much.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Minsc
I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
I think that probably is a better description for those who are inclined to see more of the content than someone who just logs in and pays nothing.
and of course, at some point it makes more sense to subscribe.
I agree as well. This is more about offering alternate payment models which doesn't not make it the equivalent of a F2P game that is designed from the ground up around its cash shop.
But over time the more need for cash shop equalling more money for DEVs will change things, it has to.
Originally posted by stayontarget
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by stayontarget
Originally posted by jokergulf
Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
I don't think many people begrudge them wanting to make a buck, at the least I do not have a problem with them pursuing profit. The problem is that this drive to F2P is more about making more bucks carving up the service and selling it piecemeal (think of buying a happy meal as a package verse buying those items individually - individually they cost more). F2P is about monetiing the individual parts of a game that are either most attractive, most necessary, or most convenient and in that way it compels developers to alter design from making a great/fun game to making the cash shop items more wanted and needed.
I disagree, I don't think they were making as much money as you think they were as a P2P only game.
Didn't their own claims say a 500% increase with DDO? Same game, not more subs - but massive revenue increase - this is the enivitable drive that pushes DEVs to make the cash shop more and more needed to increase revenue.
So while it may not change things now or day/month 1 of the new hybrid model over time it has to change things unless we are to believe that DEVs and game companies are simply blind to the fact that the more people need the cash shop the more money they will make.
yes... after looking at the fine print I believe you are correct. We do get to keep our character slots if we have those expansions. So that should be a relief to many. thanks!
I was recalling that in ddo they changed the charcter limit and offered me to buy my characters back. Which I didn't.
I know this is certainly the case if you bought the adventurers pack. No matter which account you have, you get the 2 extra slots.
yes... after looking at the fine print I believe you are correct. We do get to keep our character slots if we have those expansions. So that should be a relief to many. thanks!
I was recalling that in ddo they changed the charcter limit and offered me to buy my characters back. Which I didn't.
I know this is certainly the case if you bought the adventurers pack. No matter which account you have, you get the 2 extra slots.
Again, it is not about whether or not a sub/lifer account gets you under F2P all it gets you now, it is about whether it gets you all of what comes after going F2P or not. In DDO they have already shown they have no compunction about putting new stuff in the cash shop, stuff that would have been included in a sub before going F2P. Additionally, they are doing what most F2P games do which is making the 'earn it through gameplay' path longer and longer to encourage and entice cash shop purchases. Granted that DDO is not as much of a whore about it as, say, Allod's Online but the movement in that direction is clear as it is the obvious case that a subscription to LotRO this time next year will not get you the 'all access' pass that it does today.
You don't lose your founder status. I cancelled a while ago, was not playing for 7-8 months. When I tried to re-sub, I was offered the same founder deal (9,99/mth) as earlier.
DB
The $9.99/mo is a deal they've been running since around Christmas. I was paying 9.59/mo ($28.75) on the 3 month plan (I'm checking my account now). If I resub now I pay 29.97. I did stay long enough to get my discount at the Bard though.
Well, I'm playing in EU, so I'm not sure how it is with Turbine, but when I resubbed, it did specifially offer me the founder option (it DID say founder payment option in RED), so this is not the cause you have experienced.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Nice try OP, we all know you waited 3 whole years for this, but you missed (again), as many have pointed out.
If you are a lifer, nothing changes.
If you have an active sub, when the F2P option for the game starts, nothing changes.
Heck, I can even keep my founder payment option (9.99 USD per month), and nothing changes.
F2P is just an extended trial for this game, milking to be done on those who still don't want to pay a monthly fee.
DB
Agree only in the sense that nothing changes from what you have now. But just like in DDO what will change is how the new stuff that comes to the game after it goes F2P is suddenly needing to be bought even as a lifer or sub player. DDO does this, so it is inarguable that LotRO will as well. You get what you got now, nothing changes in that regard - but going forward past F2P your sub (life or monthly) will most definitely NOT get you all the games pushes to live, period.
Basically, you'reproving here you haven't read their announcement details. If you're a lifer or a founder paying monthly sub, you will get bonus points, that you can not only use to buy some fancy stuff maybe, but also PAID extensions - which even lifers had to pay for in the past.
Moreover ... lifers and founders automatically get VIP status, meaning access to every quest, every area, every level etc. So no payment needed for any of this stuff either.
Better do your homework, makes more sense to create an opinion when you actually are aware of the things you talk about.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
You don't lose your founder status. I cancelled a while ago, was not playing for 7-8 months. When I tried to re-sub, I was offered the same founder deal (9,99/mth) as earlier.
DB
The $9.99/mo is a deal they've been running since around Christmas. I was paying 9.59/mo ($28.75) on the 3 month plan (I'm checking my account now). If I resub now I pay 29.97. I did stay long enough to get my discount at the Bard though.
That's true, I cancelled and lost my found status.
But that's the thing, I never want to be held hostage to a game with the threat of keeping better pricing. I never mind paying what I think is a reasonable price for my entertainment provided I"m getting good value.
Then it's confirmed: Turbine are greedy bastards compared to Codemasters, who actually keep your founder status regardless if you cancel your sub for some time. Well, tough luck.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I am a current subscriber that has all the expansions and the adventure pack. Bottom line is if Ihave to buy back anything I already have, I'm done. Other than that, I'm taking a wait-and-see approach to what this does to the game and community, because I've never played a "F2P" game before.
You don't. Research before screaming. (not aimed at you, but at all the screamers and doomsayers)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I'm definitely going to keep my account active and take the "wait and see" approach as is most of my Kinship. If, later on down the road, I feel Turbine has changed into a cash shop dependent kinda game and isn't keeping the story going forward, then I will simply cancel my account. As easy as that. No need to predict doom and gloom and claim the sky is falling until we actually know what is going to happen, and at this point in time, I'm not even sure Turbine knows what that is.
I unsubscribed - after being continuously subscribed from beta times. I will never play F2P even though I would be OK paying up to 29.99 a month for a sub. Sorry, just not my cup of tea.
Wow... thanks AgentSmith for posting this. Seeing the details really changed my mind. I was kinda neutral, tending to positive about the new model. But now seeing the realities, how limited the F2P gameplay is... wow. I am still out of words. What a scam. How dare they to call THIS free to play? Thats outright lies!... Quite a disappiontment.
I find it funny that the consistant "haters" of this title are the ones spreading the missinfromation.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I think the point that many people are missing is that being a VIP only grants you the things you HAVE NOW. Future additions, like more crafting tiers and so on, will need to be purchased. AND, since Turbine/WB is controlling what you need, there is no telling what is going to show up in the item shop. In other words, the company now can funnel demand now in any way they see fit. But of course, it is now a "free" game so why worry?
EXACTLY. A subscription is diminished as it no longer gives you full access to the game it just gives you access to what is in the game now - new stuff (like Favored Soul class in DDO) is sold on cash shop. Not the worst thing ever but it is neither free to play nor is it paying a sub to keep things as they are now. And for lifers, I think they really get the shaft as they will have to buy stuff in the cash shop to avoid the enivitable increasing grinds for commons things or the 'new' stuff such as I mentioned originally.
Correction on an example you bring up about the favored soul. As a DDO F2P player you can unlock it by getting 2500 favor with one character and its possible to unlock enough content to reach that. Of course it is a major grind but I think that is the point. For those that don't want to grind out stuff for free they have the option of getting exactly what they want in the item shop. As a DDO VIP you are given 500 Turbine pts a month and you could use those pts to buy the favored soul class and then unsub.
So as a LoTRO VIP you will pretty much be in the same boat. You will be given 500 TP a month to spend however you want. If you unsub then you can buy or use your accumlated TP on the classes/content you want without paying and sub fees.
The game is not going to change too much for subscribers because they will always be accumulating TP to buy expansion packs with. It may even be cheaper if the xpacs are around 3000 TP.
How many threads on this topic must you guys make. Can't you just put your thoughts and idea's in the first thread that was created on this topic.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Nice try OP, we all know you waited 3 whole years for this, but you missed (again), as many have pointed out.
If you are a lifer, nothing changes.
If you have an active sub, when the F2P option for the game starts, nothing changes.
Heck, I can even keep my founder payment option (9.99 USD per month), and nothing changes.
F2P is just an extended trial for this game, milking to be done on those who still don't want to pay a monthly fee.
DB
Agree only in the sense that nothing changes from what you have now. But just like in DDO what will change is how the new stuff that comes to the game after it goes F2P is suddenly needing to be bought even as a lifer or sub player. DDO does this, so it is inarguable that LotRO will as well. You get what you got now, nothing changes in that regard - but going forward past F2P your sub (life or monthly) will most definitely NOT get you all the games pushes to live, period.
Basically, you'reproving here you haven't read their announcement details. If you're a lifer or a founder paying monthly sub, you will get bonus points, that you can not only use to buy some fancy stuff maybe, but also PAID extensions - which even lifers had to pay for in the past.
Moreover ... lifers and founders automatically get VIP status, meaning access to every quest, every area, every level etc. So no payment needed for any of this stuff either.
Better do your homework, makes more sense to create an opinion when you actually are aware of the things you talk about.
DB
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
Originally posted by Odysses
Correction on an example you bring up about the favored soul. As a DDO F2P player you can unlock it by getting 2500 favor with one character and its possible to unlock enough content to reach that. Of course it is a major grind but I think that is the point. For those that don't want to grind out stuff for free they have the option of getting exactly what they want in the item shop. As a DDO VIP you are given 500 Turbine pts a month and you could use those pts to buy the favored soul class and then unsub.
The favor needed to get that class is a major, major grind - so much so it is fair to say normal gameplay doesn't get you that class (say, as the Drow race is unlocked through a much, much lower amount prior to going to F2P hybrid model, think Drow is 400 favor). BUt more than any argument about how much grind that is the point is that prior to F2P all added classes and races where free and included to subscribers - then low and behold Hybrid F2P goes live and a new class shows up on cash shop and is only unlockable through an insane gameplay grind. This is the very pattern I am warning of - things that would have been free or included becoming cash shop items and then having gameplay earnable things get more and more inflated grinds to make you, F2P or subscriber, buy instead of earning in game.
Originally posted by Odysses
So as a LoTRO VIP you will pretty much be in the same boat. You will be given 500 TP a month to spend however you want. If you unsub then you can buy or use your accumlated TP on the classes/content you want without paying and sub fees.
The game is not going to change too much for subscribers because they will always be accumulating TP to buy expansion packs with. It may even be cheaper if the xpacs are around 3000 TP.
So as a DDO VIP (subscriver, $15/mo) you get 500 points. But look at the cost of these things that under a normal P2P model where included - all are more than that 500 points some substnatially so (see attached images below). Point being that the points you get each month as part of a sub are not enough to make up for the things that in the future will be added as cash shop or major grind to earn that under the traditional pay model would have been included or available for a much smaller grind.
Comments
Taking a great game and turning it into a F2P piece 'o sh!t for a quick buck.
God forbid they try to make money for there hard work. Shame on them L0L
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Of course this is true. However, in a P2P model the only way DEVs have to make money is to improve the whole of the game to entice people to subscribe/buy. But in a F2P model they can make money without improving the game at all, in fact they most often make money by subtly or obviously making better parts of the game only avaialble (or only conveniently and reasonably available, i.e. big grinds) through the cash shop so in a way F2P games only make money by making the game experience worse with a solution to what has gotten worse conveniently in the cash shop.
I am not saying all DEVs and game houses do this well, or get it like they should - but the reality remains that they only make money by making the game more attractive or more enjoyable to players, period. F2P makes money if they find ways, and this becomes the driving force behind development enivitably, by finding ways to make players need the cash shop more and more.
Uhm, not true - or at least very deceptive. Yes, you can unlock the new class but the grind is pretty severe and compared to wht you did to unlock Drow (a race, not a class) it is exponentially higher. As for classes, prior to Fav Soul no class required an in game grind, big or small, you are thinking of unlocking the Drow race and unlocking the 32 point build but those are not classes that was more an end game prestige type class.
That is the jist of it really. F2P, or at least this hybrid type model, really does just carve up what is there now and try to arrange it so that going forward you will end up buying the better parts back rather than paying the one price and getting the good and bad parts alike.
Actually, you could not be more wrong. I have zero interest in free 2 play games not because of the buying of game advantages or acehivements, though I do think that taints the gaame, but because I want my enjoyment of the game to directly relate to the DEVs income. It really is a simple concept, I fail to see why so many struggle to understand it or otherwise just don't follow.
In pay to play the DEVs earn money from the quality/popularity/enjoyment of the game, period. In free to play the DEVs earn money by how often a player needs/wants something from the cash shop, in essence. There is a huge difference in these to driving interests, HUGE. In the pay to play there is a contrary incentive to DEVs to make mindless grinds for essential or even mildly necessary items, not incentive to have popular content/items be unavailable to the bulk of the playerbase, etc.. But in free to play there is a direct incentive for normal acheievements in game and basic/necessary items to be made more rare or otherwise take more time to get because as they become more of a pain to get more people are encouraged to buy them on the cash shop.
Agree only in the sense that nothing changes from what you have now. But just like in DDO what will change is how the new stuff that comes to the game after it goes F2P is suddenly needing to be bought even as a lifer or sub player. DDO does this, so it is inarguable that LotRO will as well. You get what you got now, nothing changes in that regard - but going forward past F2P your sub (life or monthly) will most definitely NOT get you all the games pushes to live, period.
Look, it is this simple - as someone said last page with a subscription MMO you are paying for a service. You pay the monthly fee and you get the service for a month. The evidence, th eproof, that this move does change that is in the char itself forgetting the specifics - starting with F2P there are tiers of who gets what, there are mutiple servies, and there is no service on that chart that gets 'unlimited' in every category (forgetting just for now how many new categories there are after F2P). If it was the same as it is now the the VIP/lifer issue would be answer easily and without a chart, they would simply say "you get everything", the fact that the chart shows you do not get everything emphasises that this is a change from pay admission get full access to pay by the piece system for everyone.
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That's true, I cancelled and lost my found status.
But that's the thing, I never want to be held hostage to a game with the threat of keeping better pricing. I never mind paying what I think is a reasonable price for my entertainment provided I"m getting good value.
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I don't think many people begrudge them wanting to make a buck, at the least I do not have a problem with them pursuing profit. The problem is that this drive to F2P is more about making more bucks carving up the service and selling it piecemeal (think of buying a happy meal as a package verse buying those items individually - individually they cost more). F2P is about monetiing the individual parts of a game that are either most attractive, most necessary, or most convenient and in that way it compels developers to alter design from making a great/fun game to making the cash shop items more wanted and needed.
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Eloquently put. I agree whole heartedly.
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I can't remember where I saw it but someone referred to Turbine's Hybrid more as a pay-as-you-go type model then a free-to-play model and I think that makes much more sense personally.
I think that probably is a better description for those who are inclined to see more of the content than someone who just logs in and pays nothing.
and of course, at some point it makes more sense to subscribe.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am a current subscriber that has all the expansions and the adventure pack. Bottom line is if Ihave to buy back anything I already have, I'm done. Other than that, I'm taking a wait-and-see approach to what this does to the game and community, because I've never played a "F2P" game before.
I agree as well. This is more about offering alternate payment models which doesn't not make it the equivalent of a F2P game that is designed from the ground up around its cash shop.
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I disagree, I don't think they were making as much money as you think they were as a P2P only game.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Again, all fine and dandy but for the fact that once the shift occurs the motivation for devs is clear - design more need/want for people to use the cash shop so the game as it is today changes over time. It has happened in DDO, it will happen in LotRO - the lure of increasing profits by increasing need to use the cash shop dictates as much.
But over time the more need for cash shop equalling more money for DEVs will change things, it has to.
Didn't their own claims say a 500% increase with DDO? Same game, not more subs - but massive revenue increase - this is the enivitable drive that pushes DEVs to make the cash shop more and more needed to increase revenue.
So while it may not change things now or day/month 1 of the new hybrid model over time it has to change things unless we are to believe that DEVs and game companies are simply blind to the fact that the more people need the cash shop the more money they will make.
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I know this is certainly the case if you bought the adventurers pack. No matter which account you have, you get the 2 extra slots.
Again, it is not about whether or not a sub/lifer account gets you under F2P all it gets you now, it is about whether it gets you all of what comes after going F2P or not. In DDO they have already shown they have no compunction about putting new stuff in the cash shop, stuff that would have been included in a sub before going F2P. Additionally, they are doing what most F2P games do which is making the 'earn it through gameplay' path longer and longer to encourage and entice cash shop purchases. Granted that DDO is not as much of a whore about it as, say, Allod's Online but the movement in that direction is clear as it is the obvious case that a subscription to LotRO this time next year will not get you the 'all access' pass that it does today.
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Well, I'm playing in EU, so I'm not sure how it is with Turbine, but when I resubbed, it did specifially offer me the founder option (it DID say founder payment option in RED), so this is not the cause you have experienced.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Then it's confirmed: Turbine are greedy bastards compared to Codemasters, who actually keep your founder status regardless if you cancel your sub for some time. Well, tough luck.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
You don't. Research before screaming. (not aimed at you, but at all the screamers and doomsayers)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I'm definitely going to keep my account active and take the "wait and see" approach as is most of my Kinship. If, later on down the road, I feel Turbine has changed into a cash shop dependent kinda game and isn't keeping the story going forward, then I will simply cancel my account. As easy as that. No need to predict doom and gloom and claim the sky is falling until we actually know what is going to happen, and at this point in time, I'm not even sure Turbine knows what that is.
I unsubscribed - after being continuously subscribed from beta times. I will never play F2P even though I would be OK paying up to 29.99 a month for a sub. Sorry, just not my cup of tea.
Wow... thanks AgentSmith for posting this. Seeing the details really changed my mind. I was kinda neutral, tending to positive about the new model. But now seeing the realities, how limited the F2P gameplay is... wow. I am still out of words. What a scam. How dare they to call THIS free to play? Thats outright lies!... Quite a disappiontment.
I find it funny that the consistant "haters" of this title are the ones spreading the missinfromation.
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Correction on an example you bring up about the favored soul. As a DDO F2P player you can unlock it by getting 2500 favor with one character and its possible to unlock enough content to reach that. Of course it is a major grind but I think that is the point. For those that don't want to grind out stuff for free they have the option of getting exactly what they want in the item shop. As a DDO VIP you are given 500 Turbine pts a month and you could use those pts to buy the favored soul class and then unsub.
So as a LoTRO VIP you will pretty much be in the same boat. You will be given 500 TP a month to spend however you want. If you unsub then you can buy or use your accumlated TP on the classes/content you want without paying and sub fees.
The game is not going to change too much for subscribers because they will always be accumulating TP to buy expansion packs with. It may even be cheaper if the xpacs are around 3000 TP.
How many threads on this topic must you guys make. Can't you just put your thoughts and idea's in the first thread that was created on this topic.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
And you show you really do not know what you are talking about - DDO proves this. The amount of points you get as a subscriber doesn't get you jack in terms of the things they have already added to the cash shop that amount to buying advatages, add ons, or avoidence of major grinds.
The favor needed to get that class is a major, major grind - so much so it is fair to say normal gameplay doesn't get you that class (say, as the Drow race is unlocked through a much, much lower amount prior to going to F2P hybrid model, think Drow is 400 favor). BUt more than any argument about how much grind that is the point is that prior to F2P all added classes and races where free and included to subscribers - then low and behold Hybrid F2P goes live and a new class shows up on cash shop and is only unlockable through an insane gameplay grind. This is the very pattern I am warning of - things that would have been free or included becoming cash shop items and then having gameplay earnable things get more and more inflated grinds to make you, F2P or subscriber, buy instead of earning in game.
So as a DDO VIP (subscriver, $15/mo) you get 500 points. But look at the cost of these things that under a normal P2P model where included - all are more than that 500 points some substnatially so (see attached images below). Point being that the points you get each month as part of a sub are not enough to make up for the things that in the future will be added as cash shop or major grind to earn that under the traditional pay model would have been included or available for a much smaller grind.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD