Last night I made an attempt at running heroic Trial of the Champion and Gundrak for Champion's Seals and a ring from the final boss in Gundrak, but each attempt was met with unmitigated failure as my Trial of the Champion group ended after I was removed from the group because, as a fresh 80, I should be expected to do more than 1.8k DPS even after dieing not even halfway through the fight due to an incompetant tank, and the Gundrak group couldn't even make it past the first boss. Granted, these are all areas I've been too before with little to no issue. Couple this with the fact that I found out I was now locked out of each zone, I logged out in disgust.
This sounds very odd. In my experience, most groups are WAY over-geared instead of under-geared. It is very rare for me to get into groups who cannot getting get thru the first H Gundrak boss. It is more likely that he dies in 10 sec instead.
1.8k dps is kind of low but i wouldn't mind carry someone with low dps. If the tank or healer aren't performing, it is bad. But as long as you get one over-geared dps, some low dps never bothers me.
It's a bad feature for an MMO, first they took out world pvp, now they took out another reason for players to go out into the world.
now all you have to do is get to level 15 and sit in the city your whole game time and run dungeons.
WoW might as well be a diablo type lobby game now.
No, its a very good thing to have in the game. Many, MANY people have no interest what so ever in roaming around ganking people out and about in the world. Nor do they want to be the gankee's ^^ This is pretty much the same argument that was heard about flying mounts. They also make it much more difficult to gank people. DF has its negatives, but over all its one of the best additions to the game in years.
It's a bad feature for an MMO, first they took out world pvp, now they took out another reason for players to go out into the world.
now all you have to do is get to level 15 and sit in the city your whole game time and run dungeons.
WoW might as well be a diablo type lobby game now.
No, its a very good thing to have in the game. Many, MANY people have no interest what so ever in roaming around ganking people out and about in the world. Nor do they want to be the gankee's ^^ This is pretty much the same argument that was heard about flying mounts. They also make it much more difficult to gank people. DF has its negatives, but over all its one of the best additions to the game in years.
Sure, if all you like doing is repeating dungeons over and over.... and over and over and over, it's the best thing ever, beyond that, it's not something a MMO should have.
At least with flying mounts you are in the game world.
With DF, there might as well be just cities and dungeons in the game.
No, its a very good thing to have in the game. Many, MANY people have no interest what so ever in roaming around ganking people out and about in the world. Nor do they want to be the gankee's ^^ This is pretty much the same argument that was heard about flying mounts. They also make it much more difficult to gank people. DF has its negatives, but over all its one of the best additions to the game in years.
Sure, if all you like doing is repeating dungeons over and over.... and over and over and over, it's the best thing ever, beyond that, it's not something a MMO should have.
At least with flying mounts you are in the game world.
With DF, there might as well be just cities and dungeons in the game.
But the simple FACT of the matter is ... the world IS there and is being played by many many more than would do dungeon 'chains".
As can be seen by the auction house and mats selling.
Got that simple fact into the brain ? Ok, then
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Last night I made an attempt at running heroic Trial of the Champion and Gundrak for Champion's Seals and a ring from the final boss in Gundrak, but each attempt was met with unmitigated failure as my Trial of the Champion group ended after I was removed from the group because, as a fresh 80, I should be expected to do more than 1.8k DPS even after dieing not even halfway through the fight due to an incompetant tank, and the Gundrak group couldn't even make it past the first boss. Granted, these are all areas I've been too before with little to no issue. Couple this with the fact that I found out I was now locked out of each zone, I logged out in disgust.
This sounds very odd. In my experience, most groups are WAY over-geared instead of under-geared. It is very rare for me to get into groups who cannot getting get thru the first H Gundrak boss. It is more likely that he dies in 10 sec instead.
1.8k dps is kind of low but i wouldn't mind carry someone with low dps. If the tank or healer aren't performing, it is bad. But as long as you get one over-geared dps, some low dps never bothers me.
I have around a 1.6k gear score with no enchants, and I'm missing some gems atm, but I can generally do around 2.4 -2.6k overall DPS depending on the instance setup, which may or may not be low, but at least it's better than 1.8k. The 1.8 was a result of my dying before I could even get halfway through the first round of my rotation. The dungeon guide said I could not possibly have pulled aggro from the tank as he made sure he showed that he was doing twice the damage that I was, and I more than likely died from an AoE (albeit more rudely than how I explain it), and I don't doubt that I could have been standing in an AoE due to the fact that I'm not familiar with the instance, but I think I can see when a mob is attacking me, and when it is not. I don't think he realized that a lot of times, total damage has very little to do with who gets aggro and when. As a result of my arguing, I was removed from the group and robbed of my chance at progress for the next twelve hours, which I find to be a flaw in a game mechanic.
Last night I made an attempt at running heroic Trial of the Champion and Gundrak for Champion's Seals and a ring from the final boss in Gundrak, but each attempt was met with unmitigated failure as my Trial of the Champion group ended after I was removed from the group because, as a fresh 80, I should be expected to do more than 1.8k DPS even after dieing not even halfway through the fight due to an incompetant tank, and the Gundrak group couldn't even make it past the first boss. Granted, these are all areas I've been too before with little to no issue. Couple this with the fact that I found out I was now locked out of each zone, I logged out in disgust.
This sounds very odd. In my experience, most groups are WAY over-geared instead of under-geared. It is very rare for me to get into groups who cannot getting get thru the first H Gundrak boss. It is more likely that he dies in 10 sec instead.
1.8k dps is kind of low but i wouldn't mind carry someone with low dps. If the tank or healer aren't performing, it is bad. But as long as you get one over-geared dps, some low dps never bothers me.
I have around a 1.6k gear score with no enchants, and I'm missing some gems atm, but I can generally do around 2.4 -2.6k overall DPS depending on the instance setup, which may or may not be low, but at least it's better than 1.8k. The 1.8 was a result of my dying before I could even get halfway through the first round of my rotation. The dungeon guide said I could not possibly have pulled aggro from the tank as he made sure he showed that he was doing twice the damage that I was, and I more than likely died from an AoE (albeit more rudely than how I explain it), and I don't doubt that I could have been standing in an AoE due to the fact that I'm not familiar with the instance, but I think I can see when a mob is attacking me, and when it is not. I don't think he realized that a lot of times, total damage has very little to do with who gets aggro and when. As a result of my arguing, I was removed from the group and robbed of my chance at progress for the next twelve hours, which I find to be a flaw in a game mechanic.
1.6k DPS is sufficient for regular heroics with 2k dps being good for ToC.
The first fight in 5man ToC has three bosses and it is not uncommon for the tank to lose aggro on the mage or hunter. I've seen DPS pull aggro from them due to AoE abilities. What class did you play?
Last night I made an attempt at running heroic Trial of the Champion and Gundrak for Champion's Seals and a ring from the final boss in Gundrak, but each attempt was met with unmitigated failure as my Trial of the Champion group ended after I was removed from the group because, as a fresh 80, I should be expected to do more than 1.8k DPS even after dieing not even halfway through the fight due to an incompetant tank, and the Gundrak group couldn't even make it past the first boss. Granted, these are all areas I've been too before with little to no issue. Couple this with the fact that I found out I was now locked out of each zone, I logged out in disgust.
This sounds very odd. In my experience, most groups are WAY over-geared instead of under-geared. It is very rare for me to get into groups who cannot getting get thru the first H Gundrak boss. It is more likely that he dies in 10 sec instead.
1.8k dps is kind of low but i wouldn't mind carry someone with low dps. If the tank or healer aren't performing, it is bad. But as long as you get one over-geared dps, some low dps never bothers me.
I have around a 1.6k gear score with no enchants, and I'm missing some gems atm, but I can generally do around 2.4 -2.6k overall DPS depending on the instance setup, which may or may not be low, but at least it's better than 1.8k. The 1.8 was a result of my dying before I could even get halfway through the first round of my rotation. The dungeon guide said I could not possibly have pulled aggro from the tank as he made sure he showed that he was doing twice the damage that I was, and I more than likely died from an AoE (albeit more rudely than how I explain it), and I don't doubt that I could have been standing in an AoE due to the fact that I'm not familiar with the instance, but I think I can see when a mob is attacking me, and when it is not. I don't think he realized that a lot of times, total damage has very little to do with who gets aggro and when. As a result of my arguing, I was removed from the group and robbed of my chance at progress for the next twelve hours, which I find to be a flaw in a game mechanic.
1.6k DPS is sufficient for regular heroics with 2k dps being good for ToC.
The first fight in 5man ToC has three bosses and it is not uncommon for the tank to lose aggro on the mage or hunter. I've seen DPS pull aggro from them due to AoE abilities. What class did you play?
Hunter, and I wasn't even using AoEs. Multishot isn't even on my hotbar, and I don't use volley on encounters of less than three mobs. I don't remember what class the dungeon guide was, but even though I didn't gear check him, I think he was signficantly better geared than me given he was easily able to do 3.8k DPS throughout the duration of the fight. I did not have the luxury of surviving long enough to raise my DPS high enough to meet my average. The target was marked with a skull, and as a result, my hunter's mark as well, so I did not gain aggro by attacking something other than the called target.
Hunter, and I wasn't even using AoEs. Multishot isn't even on my hotbar, and I don't use volley on encounters of less than three mobs. I don't remember what class the dungeon guide was, but even though I didn't gear check him, I think he was signficantly better geared than me given he was easily able to do 3.8k DPS throughout the duration of the fight. I did not have the luxury of surviving long enough to raise my DPS high enough to meet my average. The target was marked with a skull, and as a result, my hunter's mark as well, so I did not gain aggro by attacking something other than the called target.
This is extremely werid. 3.8k dps for a tank is a lot (my pally tank usually do a little less than 2k and his GS is ~4900). He probably is in at least some ICC gear. In this case, no way you will get aggro from him.
Do you know the fight? Which fight is this? Dying seems like ... very werid. Is your pet aggroing stuff?
To some extent, if the tank is holding aggro (and certainly he is), it is YOUR responsibility to play well and not to die.
Hunter, and I wasn't even using AoEs. Multishot isn't even on my hotbar, and I don't use volley on encounters of less than three mobs. I don't remember what class the dungeon guide was, but even though I didn't gear check him, I think he was signficantly better geared than me given he was easily able to do 3.8k DPS throughout the duration of the fight. I did not have the luxury of surviving long enough to raise my DPS high enough to meet my average. The target was marked with a skull, and as a result, my hunter's mark as well, so I did not gain aggro by attacking something other than the called target.
This is extremely werid. 3.8k dps for a tank is a lot (my pally tank usually do a little less than 2k and his GS is ~4900). He probably is in at least some ICC gear. In this case, no way you will get aggro from him.
Do you know the fight? Which fight is this? Dying seems like ... very werid. Is your pet aggroing stuff?
To some extent, if the tank is holding aggro (and certainly he is), it is YOUR responsibility to play well and not to die.
I'm not sure you read my post correctly. First of all, in your original post, the 1.6k was not my DPS, but my WoW-Heroes gearscore. Secondly, the tank did not do 3.8k DPS. That was the dungeon guide. For a more detailed recap, re-read what I wrote. I will say that the dungeon guide was either a warlock or a mage, and the 3.8 was a rough estimate that could range from 3.2-3.8, but no more than that. I did not attack anything else other than the marked target, which is exactly the same thing I have done for what is now the two other times I have successfully completed this instance. The tank lost the aggro on the marked target, which is why I was killed so quickly and was unable to produce more than 1.8k for the single fight.
i love watching all the wow noobs fail at PVE (which is a joke in any mmo) and consistently think GS means a damn thing.
ALSO DPS MEANS NOTHING. You want to look at DAMAGE DONE, not DPS, as dps can be raised with large spikes of dmg yet u could be the lowest dmg done, therefore being more or less worthless to your group. Simple logic really.
i love watching all the wow noobs fail at PVE (which is a joke in any mmo) and consistently think GS means a damn thing.
ALSO DPS MEANS NOTHING. You want to look at DAMAGE DONE, not DPS, as dps can be raised with large spikes of dmg yet u could be the lowest dmg done, therefore being more or less worthless to your group. Simple logic really.
And I love the people who think all WoW PVE is a joke. Sure, I don't play video games to inflate my e-peen, so accomlishment in a video game means nothing to me, and lets face it. The only reason players crave difficult content is because it makes them feel better about themselves to be able to do something that the less skilled players can't do. When a game like WoW comes along that puts every player relatively on the same playing field, hardcore gamers scoff at the game not because of a lack of content but because eveyone is on a level playing field and no one really stands out very far from anyone else. Seeing this, it becomes very apparent that many people no longer play a game because of its content or to socialize with its community. Many people play MMORPGs to feel a sense of achievement that they don't recieve anywhere else. It's part of the "rush" of completing endgame content before anyone else, and it's the prime fun factor for a large portion of MMORPG gamers, and I believe that's pretty sad. I enjoy playing video games for my leasure, and that means that I do not always seem to be the biggest and the best at every video game related activity, so I enjoy WoW's casual atmosphere compared to EQ2's DPS race dungeons, Darkfall's life-taking grind, and EVE's plethora of complexities. I will say though, that while WoW has a lot of content and rewards for people who just want to play a game for a few hours instead of reading years worth of class related forum posts, working through spreadsheet data, and crunching numbers, don't make statements saying WoW's a joke, without giving anyone any factual way to gauge your own progress within the game. Seeing as you're not talking to me in the game yourself, I have no way of knowing anything you say to me is true, and as such, I will just ask you, "how long did it take you to kill 25 man heroic Lich King?"
I haven't been 80 long, but considering I have completed the full instances successfully two times already, and the latter half of it three times, I would hardly say I'm the one that was "failing," and if I was "failing," I would expect someone to teach me what I did wrong, so that I may correct my mistakes in the future, not simply inform me that I suck, which is certainly one of the reasons why the WoW community has such a bad reputation.
Gearscore is nothing more than a gateway for expected content and average DPS, so that I can at least gauge how well I should be expected to perform with a specific gear rating compared to other classes with a comparable rating. Sometimes I do better than I expected, yet sometimes I do worse. Numbers can vary from person to person, yet there are certainly limits that a person can reach with a specific gearscore, so it's handy to give me an idea as to how I'm performing. Outside of that, it's useful for people who have no idea who you are to gauge your worth in a group, but it is often misused as players who run heroics think certain dungeons simply cannot be done unless players have a specific gearscore, that a specific gearscore means a player can complete a raid successfully, etc. At the end of the day, whether or not a player can complete an instance or a raid has a lot to do with gear just as in every MMORPG, but there are some parts of raids and fights that gearscore can't help. GS is overused and people rely on it far too much, but just as people who favor GS believe in it too heavily, people who don't like the idea of GS tend to fanatically refute its good points.
As for damage over DPS, I don't have enough information to refute your points, but I will say that really depends on who you ask and would be suitable for another thread. Many of my closest friends within the game are high end raiders who have told me the direct opposite of what you say. All I will say is that it seems to me as if DPS is a far better meter to compare one's abilities to others as damage done seems to depend far more on the length the fight than does DPS. If player A fights a mob for 10 minutes, he's likely to inflict more damage on it than player B who fights a lesser target for a total of 5 minutes simply because the mob that player A is fighting can sustain far more damage.
I love the concept of dungeon finder. I have zero problems with ninja looters and have not grouped with many jerks.
But...the long waits for DPS is horrible.
That seems to depend on the time and group. On silvermoon I seldom wait more than 20 minutes, even in the middle of the night. Which is still one hell of a lot better than spending an hour or two LFG for every run. During prime time it can be as little as 5 to 8 minutes.
I love the concept of dungeon finder. I have zero problems with ninja looters and have not grouped with many jerks.
But...the long waits for DPS is horrible.
That seems to depend on the time and group. On silvermoon I seldom wait more than 20 minutes, even in the middle of the night. Which is still one hell of a lot better than spending an hour or two LFG for every run. During prime time it can be as little as 5 to 8 minutes.
It does. I'm on Scarlet Crusade, and it takes me around 10-20 minutes at pretty much any time of the night. The only time I experience longer wait times is during the weekend.
I liked the dungeon finder. I'm often quite shy and I absolutely hate asking anyone for help with anything, so trying to form or find groups in games is difficult for me, yet I often enjoy grouping with other players (else I wouldn't play MMOs).
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I liked the dungeon finder. I'm often quite shy and I absolutely hate asking anyone for help with anything, so trying to form or find groups in games is difficult for me, yet I often enjoy grouping with other players (else I wouldn't play MMOs).
I have pretty much the same problem. Until the DF came along I was in mainly crafted blues, AH and faction gear. The emblem system and DF have made a world of difference. Its too bad that the loot tables for the dungeons are so static. Once one has all of the class gear from that dungeon, emblems are the only reason to run it. Then once you have all of the emblem gear, there is no reason at all.
Its too bad they do not have a one or two dynamic dungeons that change lay out, mobs and theme. Couple that with a much larger or dynamic loot system, and people would have more of a reason to keep playing.
I liked the dungeon finder. I'm often quite shy and I absolutely hate asking anyone for help with anything, so trying to form or find groups in games is difficult for me, yet I often enjoy grouping with other players (else I wouldn't play MMOs).
I have pretty much the same problem. Until the DF came along I was in mainly crafted blues, AH and faction gear. The emblem system and DF have made a world of difference. Its too bad that the loot tables for the dungeons are so static. Once one has all of the class gear from that dungeon, emblems are the only reason to run it. Then once you have all of the emblem gear, there is no reason at all.
Its too bad they do not have a one or two dynamic dungeons that change lay out, mobs and theme. Couple that with a much larger or dynamic loot system, and people would have more of a reason to keep playing.
I agree. I just can't stand the thought of running another Heroic. Takes too long to get gear through badges, and raiding puts me right back into that whole having to form or find a group thing, and with me undergeared compared to most players because I was relatively new. I know it takes a lot of time and money to create new content such as the dynamic dungeons you mentioned, but yeah, it would be nice.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
We have all been there in Wow and other MMOs, Dungeon Runs were fun , adventurous ,climatic , fits of joy , anger,surprising, anxiety , nervousness, anticipation etc would you like me to go on , ill digress..
Wows DF is none of those things its mostly a boring dull race , no comradery,no fun ,no adventure, no surprises .. it removes the MMO dungeon experience .. And replaces it with a simple spam fest rat race thru there mazes , usually accompinied by some rude inconsiderate obnoxious snotty lil fuk that needs to beat with a F^^%ng bat ..
We have all been there in Wow and other MMOs, Dungeon Runs were fun , adventurous ,climatic , fits of joy , anger,surprising, anxiety , nervousness, anticipation etc would you like me to go on , ill digress..
Wows DF is none of those things its mostly a boring dull race , no comradery,no fun ,no adventure, no surprises .. it removes the MMO dungeon experience .. And replaces it with a simple spam fest rat race thru there mazes , usually accompinied by some rude inconsiderate obnoxious snotty lil fuk that needs to beat with a F^^%ng bat ..
I've been on some fun dungeon runs in WoW with the dungeon finder, while the vast majority of pre-DF runs consisted of me auto following a couple level 80s for a half hour. Sure, that was low level stuff, and there weren't many people around running low level dungeons, but hey, at least it breathed life into the low level dungeons again.
I think the problem is not so much the random dungeon finder as it is the nature of the game itself. WoW's endgame is designed in such a way that requires running the same set of dungeons over, and over, and over, and over and then over, and over, and over in hard mode, so naturally players are going to feel as if they can run through these dungeons blind. The TSO instances in EQ2 were very similar, and they usually consisted of me running around trying to keep up with 5 max level raid toons bulldozing through the dungeon with no explanation to the fight then yelling at me if I did something wrong, so the issue isn't even entirely related to WoW. I think newer mmorpgs need to rethink their approach to endgame content.
I love the concept of dungeon finder. I have zero problems with ninja looters and have not grouped with many jerks.
But...the long waits for DPS is horrible.
That seems to depend on the time and group. On silvermoon I seldom wait more than 20 minutes, even in the middle of the night. Which is still one hell of a lot better than spending an hour or two LFG for every run. During prime time it can be as little as 5 to 8 minutes.
That waiting problem is actually an advantage. That's why I don't enter with a healing spec anymore (3-5 mintues waiting times).
It mostly takes 15 to 20 minutes for DPS, rarely 25 minutes and in between you can do the other stuff like professions, world quests etc...no matter what dungeon between level 15 and 80.
Waiting is "relative" when you know the dungeon run will simply be available. In the old system there was always that nagging feeling of dropping out players when that 4th or 5th man just didn't show up and the group fell apart even before entering the instance.
And if that was the tank (mostly the prigs anyway), you were ... screwed: 1 hour waiting and not seeing anything but ... "hoping" for a rarely run 50-ish dungeon .... IS that fun ? Nope.
Compared to this the DF is fantastic, since it also gives priority to parties who are already in and lost a member (even a tank) and it is not only replaced quite quick, but even on the spot your group is.
The new leveling options with the DF tool and the BG experience gains are a blessing alternative in choices to level. Period. People at least have a choice how they want to level for the day.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
So I thought "hell, you are currently subscribed to no MMORPG, let's try WoW again, havent played it since some years". So I get the free trial, install it, play some. Get my hunter to 15, use the dungeon tool for ragefire chasm.
First experience with the dungeon tool: "well, that's not so bad, no constant running around or messaging people".
Second experience with the dungeon tool, in deadmines: Three hunters in the group. First boss drops the 11 stamina hammer, a hunter rolls need. I ask him "why do you roll need? This is a tank weapon, you are no tank". He leaves the group. Another hunter joins. I say "hey, the hunter before you left after rolling on stuff he doesn't need, I hope you don't do the same." We fight some more, another boss drops a blue ring with int. The hunter rolls on it and leaves the group. Another hunter joins as replacement. I say "hey, the two hunters before you rolled on loot they didn't need and left, I hope you don't do the same". He says "I only roll on what I need". Then a boss drops that blue caster staff with int and spirit. The hunter rolls on it. When asked what the hell he was doing, he said "I trained staves!!!!" Needless to say that even my pet did more damage than him, although he had a higher leve.
Third experience, SFK. Noone but me got some quests. I share them. "I think ok, maybe they didn't know where to find them". First boss blue shoulders with agility. I'm the only person in the group who wears leather. Three people roll on the shoulders, warrior wins. I ask him wth he was doing. He said "I have no shoulders yet". I reply "that's no reason to roll on shoulders you don't need and that others need!!", I get kicked from the group. I mean: I get kicked? I did 40% to 50% of the damage of the group, even though they had higher levels. I was the only one to bring quests along. And I wasn't the dude who rolled on stuff he doesn'T need... god...
....
Motivation to extend the trial: 0.
Am I old fashioned or something? When I played WoW back in the days, I spent 90% of the time raiding. Everything from BWL to AQ40 to I don't know, the hardest stuff we could find. Did I Just have bad luck? Or do I expect too much? Is it now these days that you simply roll need on everything and don't care about the rest?
So I thought "hell, you are currently subscribed to no MMORPG, let's try WoW again, havent played it since some years". So I get the free trial, install it, play some. Get my hunter to 15, use the dungeon tool for ragefire chasm.
First experience with the dungeon tool: "well, that's not so bad, no constant running around or messaging people".
Second experience with the dungeon tool, in deadmines: Three hunters in the group. First boss drops the 11 stamina hammer, a hunter rolls need. I ask him "why do you roll need? This is a tank weapon, you are no tank". He leaves the group. Another hunter joins. I say "hey, the hunter before you left after rolling on stuff he doesn't need, I hope you don't do the same." We fight some more, another boss drops a blue ring with int. The hunter rolls on it and leaves the group. Another hunter joins as replacement. I say "hey, the two hunters before you rolled on loot they didn't need and left, I hope you don't do the same". He says "I only roll on what I need". Then a boss drops that blue caster staff with int and spirit. The hunter rolls on it. When asked what the hell he was doing, he said "I trained staves!!!!" Needless to say that even my pet did more damage than him, although he had a higher leve.
Third experience, SFK. Noone but me got some quests. I share them. "I think ok, maybe they didn't know where to find them". First boss blue shoulders with agility. I'm the only person in the group who wears leather. Three people roll on the shoulders, warrior wins. I ask him wth he was doing. He said "I have no shoulders yet". I reply "that's no reason to roll on shoulders you don't need and that others need!!", I get kicked from the group. I mean: I get kicked? I did 40% to 50% of the damage of the group, even though they had higher levels. I was the only one to bring quests along. And I wasn't the dude who rolled on stuff he doesn'T need... god...
....
Motivation to extend the trial: 0.
Am I old fashioned or something? When I played WoW back in the days, I spent 90% of the time raiding. Everything from BWL to AQ40 to I don't know, the hardest stuff we could find. Did I Just have bad luck? Or do I expect too much? Is it now these days that you simply roll need on everything and don't care about the rest?
Thats a sad trend that I've seen grow worse over time. One of the down sides to the Dungeon Finder is that people have no reason(other than personal principle) not to be rude and thoughtless. Which translates to need rolls on things as you mentioned. Personally, I pass on other classes blues, and greed greens. Unless something is an upgrade for my class and role, I do not need roll it.
Keep in mind that not everyone is as rude and thoughtless as those you encountered. Its too bad that WoW seems to attract so many immature types. Its actually a fun game all the way to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and/or PvP.
So I thought "hell, you are currently subscribed to no MMORPG, let's try WoW again, havent played it since some years". So I get the free trial, install it, play some. Get my hunter to 15, use the dungeon tool for ragefire chasm.
First experience with the dungeon tool: "well, that's not so bad, no constant running around or messaging people".
Second experience with the dungeon tool, in deadmines: Three hunters in the group. First boss drops the 11 stamina hammer, a hunter rolls need. I ask him "why do you roll need? This is a tank weapon, you are no tank". He leaves the group. Another hunter joins. I say "hey, the hunter before you left after rolling on stuff he doesn't need, I hope you don't do the same." We fight some more, another boss drops a blue ring with int. The hunter rolls on it and leaves the group. Another hunter joins as replacement. I say "hey, the two hunters before you rolled on loot they didn't need and left, I hope you don't do the same". He says "I only roll on what I need". Then a boss drops that blue caster staff with int and spirit. The hunter rolls on it. When asked what the hell he was doing, he said "I trained staves!!!!" Needless to say that even my pet did more damage than him, although he had a higher leve.
Third experience, SFK. Noone but me got some quests. I share them. "I think ok, maybe they didn't know where to find them". First boss blue shoulders with agility. I'm the only person in the group who wears leather. Three people roll on the shoulders, warrior wins. I ask him wth he was doing. He said "I have no shoulders yet". I reply "that's no reason to roll on shoulders you don't need and that others need!!", I get kicked from the group. I mean: I get kicked? I did 40% to 50% of the damage of the group, even though they had higher levels. I was the only one to bring quests along. And I wasn't the dude who rolled on stuff he doesn'T need... god...
....
Motivation to extend the trial: 0.
Am I old fashioned or something? When I played WoW back in the days, I spent 90% of the time raiding. Everything from BWL to AQ40 to I don't know, the hardest stuff we could find. Did I Just have bad luck? Or do I expect too much? Is it now these days that you simply roll need on everything and don't care about the rest?
Thats a sad trend that I've seen grow worse over time. One of the down sides to the Dungeon Finder is that people have no reason(other than personal principle) not to be rude and thoughtless. Which translates to need rolls on things as you mentioned. Personally, I pass on other classes blues, and greed greens. Unless something is an upgrade for my class and role, I do not need roll it.
Keep in mind that not everyone is as rude and thoughtless as those you encountered. Its too bad that WoW seems to attract so many immature types. Its actually a fun game all the way to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and/or PvP.
The Dungeon Finder just makes this worse. It's handy in some ways, but it is really destructive of the community. It enhances the feeling you should be getting badges as fast as you can, at 80 it is very unfriendly to newer players since they "aren't geared enough" and slow the group down. It largely gets rid of any talking during the run, which was common before it came out.
Problem is, the WoW Devs view a bad community is the player's problem and don't see how game mechanics affect how people behave.
So I thought "hell, you are currently subscribed to no MMORPG, let's try WoW again, havent played it since some years". So I get the free trial, install it, play some. Get my hunter to 15, use the dungeon tool for ragefire chasm.
First experience with the dungeon tool: "well, that's not so bad, no constant running around or messaging people".
Second experience with the dungeon tool, in deadmines: Three hunters in the group. First boss drops the 11 stamina hammer, a hunter rolls need. I ask him "why do you roll need? This is a tank weapon, you are no tank". He leaves the group. Another hunter joins. I say "hey, the hunter before you left after rolling on stuff he doesn't need, I hope you don't do the same." We fight some more, another boss drops a blue ring with int. The hunter rolls on it and leaves the group. Another hunter joins as replacement. I say "hey, the two hunters before you rolled on loot they didn't need and left, I hope you don't do the same". He says "I only roll on what I need". Then a boss drops that blue caster staff with int and spirit. The hunter rolls on it. When asked what the hell he was doing, he said "I trained staves!!!!" Needless to say that even my pet did more damage than him, although he had a higher leve.
Third experience, SFK. Noone but me got some quests. I share them. "I think ok, maybe they didn't know where to find them". First boss blue shoulders with agility. I'm the only person in the group who wears leather. Three people roll on the shoulders, warrior wins. I ask him wth he was doing. He said "I have no shoulders yet". I reply "that's no reason to roll on shoulders you don't need and that others need!!", I get kicked from the group. I mean: I get kicked? I did 40% to 50% of the damage of the group, even though they had higher levels. I was the only one to bring quests along. And I wasn't the dude who rolled on stuff he doesn'T need... god...
....
Motivation to extend the trial: 0.
Am I old fashioned or something? When I played WoW back in the days, I spent 90% of the time raiding. Everything from BWL to AQ40 to I don't know, the hardest stuff we could find. Did I Just have bad luck? Or do I expect too much? Is it now these days that you simply roll need on everything and don't care about the rest?
Thats a sad trend that I've seen grow worse over time. One of the down sides to the Dungeon Finder is that people have no reason(other than personal principle) not to be rude and thoughtless. Which translates to need rolls on things as you mentioned. Personally, I pass on other classes blues, and greed greens. Unless something is an upgrade for my class and role, I do not need roll it.
Keep in mind that not everyone is as rude and thoughtless as those you encountered. Its too bad that WoW seems to attract so many immature types. Its actually a fun game all the way to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and/or PvP.
The Dungeon Finder just makes this worse. It's handy in some ways, but it is really destructive of the community. It enhances the feeling you should be getting badges as fast as you can, at 80 it is very unfriendly to newer players since they "aren't geared enough" and slow the group down. It largely gets rid of any talking during the run, which was common before it came out.
Problem is, the WoW Devs view a bad community is the player's problem and don't see how game mechanics affect how people behave.
Bad, or poorly thought out mechanics can make matters worse, but they only act upon what is already present. WAY too many people are rude and/or thoughtless in real life, and that translates into the game realm. I suspect they do not realize that being polite doesn't really cost anything, and can save one from conflicts(which most people are ill prepared to deal with the consequences of).
With just a little more thought as to its design, the dungeon finder could have been used to enhance the community, rather than fragmenting it. Perhaps later on they will add such to its design.
Comments
This sounds very odd. In my experience, most groups are WAY over-geared instead of under-geared. It is very rare for me to get into groups who cannot getting get thru the first H Gundrak boss. It is more likely that he dies in 10 sec instead.
1.8k dps is kind of low but i wouldn't mind carry someone with low dps. If the tank or healer aren't performing, it is bad. But as long as you get one over-geared dps, some low dps never bothers me.
No, its a very good thing to have in the game. Many, MANY people have no interest what so ever in roaming around ganking people out and about in the world. Nor do they want to be the gankee's ^^ This is pretty much the same argument that was heard about flying mounts. They also make it much more difficult to gank people. DF has its negatives, but over all its one of the best additions to the game in years.
The dungeon finder is a good thing, but it's not without it's craptastic parts.
Sure, if all you like doing is repeating dungeons over and over.... and over and over and over, it's the best thing ever, beyond that, it's not something a MMO should have.
At least with flying mounts you are in the game world.
With DF, there might as well be just cities and dungeons in the game.
But the simple FACT of the matter is ... the world IS there and is being played by many many more than would do dungeon 'chains".
As can be seen by the auction house and mats selling.
Got that simple fact into the brain ? Ok, then
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I have around a 1.6k gear score with no enchants, and I'm missing some gems atm, but I can generally do around 2.4 -2.6k overall DPS depending on the instance setup, which may or may not be low, but at least it's better than 1.8k. The 1.8 was a result of my dying before I could even get halfway through the first round of my rotation. The dungeon guide said I could not possibly have pulled aggro from the tank as he made sure he showed that he was doing twice the damage that I was, and I more than likely died from an AoE (albeit more rudely than how I explain it), and I don't doubt that I could have been standing in an AoE due to the fact that I'm not familiar with the instance, but I think I can see when a mob is attacking me, and when it is not. I don't think he realized that a lot of times, total damage has very little to do with who gets aggro and when. As a result of my arguing, I was removed from the group and robbed of my chance at progress for the next twelve hours, which I find to be a flaw in a game mechanic.
1.6k DPS is sufficient for regular heroics with 2k dps being good for ToC.
The first fight in 5man ToC has three bosses and it is not uncommon for the tank to lose aggro on the mage or hunter. I've seen DPS pull aggro from them due to AoE abilities. What class did you play?
Hunter, and I wasn't even using AoEs. Multishot isn't even on my hotbar, and I don't use volley on encounters of less than three mobs. I don't remember what class the dungeon guide was, but even though I didn't gear check him, I think he was signficantly better geared than me given he was easily able to do 3.8k DPS throughout the duration of the fight. I did not have the luxury of surviving long enough to raise my DPS high enough to meet my average. The target was marked with a skull, and as a result, my hunter's mark as well, so I did not gain aggro by attacking something other than the called target.
Hunter, and I wasn't even using AoEs. Multishot isn't even on my hotbar, and I don't use volley on encounters of less than three mobs. I don't remember what class the dungeon guide was, but even though I didn't gear check him, I think he was signficantly better geared than me given he was easily able to do 3.8k DPS throughout the duration of the fight. I did not have the luxury of surviving long enough to raise my DPS high enough to meet my average. The target was marked with a skull, and as a result, my hunter's mark as well, so I did not gain aggro by attacking something other than the called target.
This is extremely werid. 3.8k dps for a tank is a lot (my pally tank usually do a little less than 2k and his GS is ~4900). He probably is in at least some ICC gear. In this case, no way you will get aggro from him.
Do you know the fight? Which fight is this? Dying seems like ... very werid. Is your pet aggroing stuff?
To some extent, if the tank is holding aggro (and certainly he is), it is YOUR responsibility to play well and not to die.
I'm not sure you read my post correctly. First of all, in your original post, the 1.6k was not my DPS, but my WoW-Heroes gearscore. Secondly, the tank did not do 3.8k DPS. That was the dungeon guide. For a more detailed recap, re-read what I wrote. I will say that the dungeon guide was either a warlock or a mage, and the 3.8 was a rough estimate that could range from 3.2-3.8, but no more than that. I did not attack anything else other than the marked target, which is exactly the same thing I have done for what is now the two other times I have successfully completed this instance. The tank lost the aggro on the marked target, which is why I was killed so quickly and was unable to produce more than 1.8k for the single fight.
i love watching all the wow noobs fail at PVE (which is a joke in any mmo) and consistently think GS means a damn thing.
ALSO DPS MEANS NOTHING. You want to look at DAMAGE DONE, not DPS, as dps can be raised with large spikes of dmg yet u could be the lowest dmg done, therefore being more or less worthless to your group. Simple logic really.
And I love the people who think all WoW PVE is a joke. Sure, I don't play video games to inflate my e-peen, so accomlishment in a video game means nothing to me, and lets face it. The only reason players crave difficult content is because it makes them feel better about themselves to be able to do something that the less skilled players can't do. When a game like WoW comes along that puts every player relatively on the same playing field, hardcore gamers scoff at the game not because of a lack of content but because eveyone is on a level playing field and no one really stands out very far from anyone else. Seeing this, it becomes very apparent that many people no longer play a game because of its content or to socialize with its community. Many people play MMORPGs to feel a sense of achievement that they don't recieve anywhere else. It's part of the "rush" of completing endgame content before anyone else, and it's the prime fun factor for a large portion of MMORPG gamers, and I believe that's pretty sad. I enjoy playing video games for my leasure, and that means that I do not always seem to be the biggest and the best at every video game related activity, so I enjoy WoW's casual atmosphere compared to EQ2's DPS race dungeons, Darkfall's life-taking grind, and EVE's plethora of complexities. I will say though, that while WoW has a lot of content and rewards for people who just want to play a game for a few hours instead of reading years worth of class related forum posts, working through spreadsheet data, and crunching numbers, don't make statements saying WoW's a joke, without giving anyone any factual way to gauge your own progress within the game. Seeing as you're not talking to me in the game yourself, I have no way of knowing anything you say to me is true, and as such, I will just ask you, "how long did it take you to kill 25 man heroic Lich King?"
I haven't been 80 long, but considering I have completed the full instances successfully two times already, and the latter half of it three times, I would hardly say I'm the one that was "failing," and if I was "failing," I would expect someone to teach me what I did wrong, so that I may correct my mistakes in the future, not simply inform me that I suck, which is certainly one of the reasons why the WoW community has such a bad reputation.
Gearscore is nothing more than a gateway for expected content and average DPS, so that I can at least gauge how well I should be expected to perform with a specific gear rating compared to other classes with a comparable rating. Sometimes I do better than I expected, yet sometimes I do worse. Numbers can vary from person to person, yet there are certainly limits that a person can reach with a specific gearscore, so it's handy to give me an idea as to how I'm performing. Outside of that, it's useful for people who have no idea who you are to gauge your worth in a group, but it is often misused as players who run heroics think certain dungeons simply cannot be done unless players have a specific gearscore, that a specific gearscore means a player can complete a raid successfully, etc. At the end of the day, whether or not a player can complete an instance or a raid has a lot to do with gear just as in every MMORPG, but there are some parts of raids and fights that gearscore can't help. GS is overused and people rely on it far too much, but just as people who favor GS believe in it too heavily, people who don't like the idea of GS tend to fanatically refute its good points.
As for damage over DPS, I don't have enough information to refute your points, but I will say that really depends on who you ask and would be suitable for another thread. Many of my closest friends within the game are high end raiders who have told me the direct opposite of what you say. All I will say is that it seems to me as if DPS is a far better meter to compare one's abilities to others as damage done seems to depend far more on the length the fight than does DPS. If player A fights a mob for 10 minutes, he's likely to inflict more damage on it than player B who fights a lesser target for a total of 5 minutes simply because the mob that player A is fighting can sustain far more damage.
I love the concept of dungeon finder. I have zero problems with ninja looters and have not grouped with many jerks.
But...the long waits for DPS is horrible.
That seems to depend on the time and group. On silvermoon I seldom wait more than 20 minutes, even in the middle of the night. Which is still one hell of a lot better than spending an hour or two LFG for every run. During prime time it can be as little as 5 to 8 minutes.
It does. I'm on Scarlet Crusade, and it takes me around 10-20 minutes at pretty much any time of the night. The only time I experience longer wait times is during the weekend.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I have pretty much the same problem. Until the DF came along I was in mainly crafted blues, AH and faction gear. The emblem system and DF have made a world of difference. Its too bad that the loot tables for the dungeons are so static. Once one has all of the class gear from that dungeon, emblems are the only reason to run it. Then once you have all of the emblem gear, there is no reason at all.
Its too bad they do not have a one or two dynamic dungeons that change lay out, mobs and theme. Couple that with a much larger or dynamic loot system, and people would have more of a reason to keep playing.
I agree. I just can't stand the thought of running another Heroic. Takes too long to get gear through badges, and raiding puts me right back into that whole having to form or find a group thing, and with me undergeared compared to most players because I was relatively new. I know it takes a lot of time and money to create new content such as the dynamic dungeons you mentioned, but yeah, it would be nice.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Wow -Lite is fitting along with MMO-Lite....
We have all been there in Wow and other MMOs, Dungeon Runs were fun , adventurous ,climatic , fits of joy , anger,surprising, anxiety , nervousness, anticipation etc would you like me to go on , ill digress..
Wows DF is none of those things its mostly a boring dull race , no comradery,no fun ,no adventure, no surprises .. it removes the MMO dungeon experience .. And replaces it with a simple spam fest rat race thru there mazes , usually accompinied by some rude inconsiderate obnoxious snotty lil fuk that needs to beat with a F^^%ng bat ..
I've been on some fun dungeon runs in WoW with the dungeon finder, while the vast majority of pre-DF runs consisted of me auto following a couple level 80s for a half hour. Sure, that was low level stuff, and there weren't many people around running low level dungeons, but hey, at least it breathed life into the low level dungeons again.
I think the problem is not so much the random dungeon finder as it is the nature of the game itself. WoW's endgame is designed in such a way that requires running the same set of dungeons over, and over, and over, and over and then over, and over, and over in hard mode, so naturally players are going to feel as if they can run through these dungeons blind. The TSO instances in EQ2 were very similar, and they usually consisted of me running around trying to keep up with 5 max level raid toons bulldozing through the dungeon with no explanation to the fight then yelling at me if I did something wrong, so the issue isn't even entirely related to WoW. I think newer mmorpgs need to rethink their approach to endgame content.
That waiting problem is actually an advantage. That's why I don't enter with a healing spec anymore (3-5 mintues waiting times).
It mostly takes 15 to 20 minutes for DPS, rarely 25 minutes and in between you can do the other stuff like professions, world quests etc...no matter what dungeon between level 15 and 80.
Waiting is "relative" when you know the dungeon run will simply be available. In the old system there was always that nagging feeling of dropping out players when that 4th or 5th man just didn't show up and the group fell apart even before entering the instance.
And if that was the tank (mostly the prigs anyway), you were ... screwed: 1 hour waiting and not seeing anything but ... "hoping" for a rarely run 50-ish dungeon .... IS that fun ? Nope.
Compared to this the DF is fantastic, since it also gives priority to parties who are already in and lost a member (even a tank) and it is not only replaced quite quick, but even on the spot your group is.
The new leveling options with the DF tool and the BG experience gains are a blessing alternative in choices to level. Period. People at least have a choice how they want to level for the day.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
So I thought "hell, you are currently subscribed to no MMORPG, let's try WoW again, havent played it since some years". So I get the free trial, install it, play some. Get my hunter to 15, use the dungeon tool for ragefire chasm.
First experience with the dungeon tool: "well, that's not so bad, no constant running around or messaging people".
Second experience with the dungeon tool, in deadmines: Three hunters in the group. First boss drops the 11 stamina hammer, a hunter rolls need. I ask him "why do you roll need? This is a tank weapon, you are no tank". He leaves the group. Another hunter joins. I say "hey, the hunter before you left after rolling on stuff he doesn't need, I hope you don't do the same." We fight some more, another boss drops a blue ring with int. The hunter rolls on it and leaves the group. Another hunter joins as replacement. I say "hey, the two hunters before you rolled on loot they didn't need and left, I hope you don't do the same". He says "I only roll on what I need". Then a boss drops that blue caster staff with int and spirit. The hunter rolls on it. When asked what the hell he was doing, he said "I trained staves!!!!" Needless to say that even my pet did more damage than him, although he had a higher leve.
Third experience, SFK. Noone but me got some quests. I share them. "I think ok, maybe they didn't know where to find them". First boss blue shoulders with agility. I'm the only person in the group who wears leather. Three people roll on the shoulders, warrior wins. I ask him wth he was doing. He said "I have no shoulders yet". I reply "that's no reason to roll on shoulders you don't need and that others need!!", I get kicked from the group. I mean: I get kicked? I did 40% to 50% of the damage of the group, even though they had higher levels. I was the only one to bring quests along. And I wasn't the dude who rolled on stuff he doesn'T need... god...
....
Motivation to extend the trial: 0.
Am I old fashioned or something? When I played WoW back in the days, I spent 90% of the time raiding. Everything from BWL to AQ40 to I don't know, the hardest stuff we could find. Did I Just have bad luck? Or do I expect too much? Is it now these days that you simply roll need on everything and don't care about the rest?
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Thats a sad trend that I've seen grow worse over time. One of the down sides to the Dungeon Finder is that people have no reason(other than personal principle) not to be rude and thoughtless. Which translates to need rolls on things as you mentioned. Personally, I pass on other classes blues, and greed greens. Unless something is an upgrade for my class and role, I do not need roll it.
Keep in mind that not everyone is as rude and thoughtless as those you encountered. Its too bad that WoW seems to attract so many immature types. Its actually a fun game all the way to level cap. Then its mainly raiding and/or PvP.
The Dungeon Finder just makes this worse. It's handy in some ways, but it is really destructive of the community. It enhances the feeling you should be getting badges as fast as you can, at 80 it is very unfriendly to newer players since they "aren't geared enough" and slow the group down. It largely gets rid of any talking during the run, which was common before it came out.
Problem is, the WoW Devs view a bad community is the player's problem and don't see how game mechanics affect how people behave.
Bad, or poorly thought out mechanics can make matters worse, but they only act upon what is already present. WAY too many people are rude and/or thoughtless in real life, and that translates into the game realm. I suspect they do not realize that being polite doesn't really cost anything, and can save one from conflicts(which most people are ill prepared to deal with the consequences of).
With just a little more thought as to its design, the dungeon finder could have been used to enhance the community, rather than fragmenting it. Perhaps later on they will add such to its design.