Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
For those that think it is just like WoW
Drachasor
Member Posts: 2,678
I think it is rather silly to act like ToR is some sort of WoW in space. There are a lot of significant differences.
First, combat isn't largely 1v1 affairs. Instead you are fighting groups of enemies and have CC and other tools to handle groups. That alone is a significant departure from WoW combat and indicates there will be more tactical depth, especially when you toss in companions and groups that don't have to be cookie-cutter. So while in some very simplistic ways it might be like WoW (an action bar, not an FPS, etc), in many other ways combat is not like WoW.
Questing isn't like WoW other, since you have meaningful dialogue options that have consequences. A truly story-based game where you decide how to react to what is going on rather than being a passive schmuck is a huge difference to all current MMOs. This is not a minor thing.
There was a thread about how the worlds are "WoW-like" and it ended up that just means you don't have loading screens and zones are seemless. Isn't that a good thing? I don't see how that makes a game feel like WoW. Rather it seems to just increase immersion and be something worth complaining about if they didn't have it.
True, there are some areas of concern if you want to avoid the bland features of WoW. Crafting is "like WoW with some twists" for instance, and I loathe WoW's crafting system. On the other hand, you could say ToR's questing and combat system are like WoW with some twists. The twists matter a lot. For all we know the twists for crafting involve being able to customize the ingredients of a recipe. We'll have to wait and see.
Anyhow, obviously ToR has a number of similarities to WoW, but I think one shouldn't forget the significant differences. If there's anything it might be missing that I hope they find a way to add it would be public quests and GW2's quest system. For those not familiar with GW2, they give an example of a a town being under attack and rather than having to talk to someone to help out, you either help out (by fighting the bad guys) or don't without any need to talk to people to start the action. That's pretty awesome, imho, and I'd love to see that in ToR (GW2 is also having character stories where you make decisions). Anyhow, I think ToR has a lot going for it still, but some people are missing the forest for the trees with regards to similarity to WoW.
Comments
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
This game has far more characteristics that make it "WoW like" vs characteristics that don't.
Softer, easier games like WoW obviously attract larger playerbases and Bioware is exercising common business sense by going for that demographic. It's really not a good or bad thing vs it just being the way it is.
Its going to be very WoW esq, you think they plan on making a game that breaks the mold? They plan on making alot of money not doing anything to rock the boat. Everything from its UI to graphics art. And all that being said, i can't wait till it comes out, I just hope they do a little somethign different than WoW which it looks like they are.
WoW is an EQ Clone.
The only thing original about WoW is the Fisher-Price stylized graphics of what they took from Warhammer.
Will people stop comparing certain aspects of other games to WoW when WoW was not the original?
Catering the casual player was not new either.
Being a game lobby was not new either.
Etc, etc, etc.
Did I mention...etc?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Just so you guys know, WoW's UI was copied from EQ 1 and that game also copied from others. So before you go around spouting how everything copies from WoW, please realise that WoW was not the first to do any of these things.
This is a straw argument. No one really is criticizing ToR for being a WoW clone. Only addle-brained morons do that. But ToR fans love defending against these fake allegations because that helps detract from the game's OTHER, serious, problems.
The largest of these problems being it's yet another game spawned fom the lame, tired, trite, boring, worn-out IP that is Star Wars. For the FSM's sake, LET STAR WARS DIE! It was good and fun 30 years ago. But how about someone step up to the plate and create a new world/mythos for us to play in and stop trying to shamelessly soak the SW IP for every red cent it can?
I think 99% of the people on this forum know that. It is more of a term based on the success of WoW and how companies won't break away from the mold.
Oddest respond to my post.
First, there are MANY people on here that have indeed criticized ToR for being a WoW clone (even a bad WoW clone). I wrote the OP because there are many threads on this forum about the WoW-ness of ToR. I think you are the first person with the actually ridiculous "let Star Wars die" 'argument' that I've seen.
Basically along the lines of WoW trying to be the Wal-Mart of the MMORPG world... but what stores try to copy Wal-Mart and succeed versus those that cater to smaller clientele or a niche market, doing it well and are more than a reasonable success?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I Hate WOW!!!! If this game is nothing but a stupid grind fest for gear then F it!!
I already know ToR crafting is pure and utter garbage since they said it is similar to WoW's worthless POS crafting system. WoW's crafting allows you to make shit....that's right garbage!! 99% of what you make is completely worthless to the person crafting it. At lvl 80 crafting is completely and totally worthless....there are drops that are a million times better.
Now, if they want to add more community and make it a real MMO they should have followed the SWG system, that was crafting at its best. It also brought the community together and made it a real MMO. All the top end crafters were famous on each server.....everyone knew who the best crafters were! Also, crafting made for a good economy. Much better than the Chinese farming economy of WOW.
SWG's crafting was such an integral part of the community that without it the game would have never taken off the ground. It was part (read that again, I said part, not all) of the endgame.....ppl would continue to try and get the best materials to make the best gear, it was incredible. This also lead to more community activity via auctions, etc.
A really solid crafting system can really enhance a game and add to its staying power. In no way will a solid, well thought out crafting system will ever negatively impact a game.
I know crafting is not EPIC but perhaps there are some ppl who like to be epic in other ways, like RICH! SWG allowed that. High end crafters were so important and essential to a Player guild and player cities.
Now, don't get me wrong, I will buy this game, play this game and go hog freaking wild with this game....but I don't think I will be playing it for a long time as there doesn't seem to be much community at all...but that is Bioware's style....RPG.
But, it looks like they are adding ships to work as player housing....what an incredible idea! I just hope in a future expansion they do have player housing and cities for guilds. Not sprawling townships all over the place but sections of the already build cities that can be occupied by guilds.....like gang turf.
I also hope to see an expansion that allows space combat and even one that brings out alternate classes like crafters or what not.
Anyway, I hope this game does well and I will support it!
lol.....it's funny. I just realized I am trying to make this game into SWG...but it's not. It is to be WoW in space, not SWG redux.
Let's assume it is mostly a themepark MMO.
How much can you deviate from WoW given that basis?
If there are quests, it is called "WoW-like" especially if those quests involve killing things.
If the efficient interface of WoW is used (or something like it), then it is called WoW-like.
Etc, etc.
My point isn't that there aren't things like WoW in ToR, it is that a LOT of that comes with the genre of Themepark MMOs, and further one misses the big picture when one thinks of it as "like WoW" rather than looking at how it is different from WoW. The differences are essential, since a lot of what people don't like about WoW (even people who continue to play it) is addressed in ToR, and those differences are not trivial.
Very good analogy.
I generally agree. There is a difference between referring to WoW as an easy way to explain a feature of your traditional MMO, and actually making a game close to WoW. I think the devs are doing the first, and this is even probably a concious marketing tool.
Alganon is a true attempt to make a game close to WoW. SWTOR is concerned with Bioware's own belief that telling good stories is what really makes gaming fun.
For me personally, I am hoping that there will be enough of this story-based content and pure exploration content so that I can avoid the click-exclamation-mark-fetch-6-rare-flowers questing that I am simply not interested in anymore.
Regarding TOR integrating the ideas in GW2, I'm sorry to say that this seems almost certainly impossible to me. Surely such mechanics would have to be in mind from the very start of building the game? I'll absolutely agree that the GW2 mechanic is amazing, to the extent that I actually fret about not being able to stop playing because I'll want to throw myself into the dynamic action and follow what happens!
I only have two problems with it being "WoWlike"....
First issue: It being so brain dead easy that I could log in, sprikle catnip on my keyboard and let my kittens get me to max level in a couple of days.....
Second issue: The "Community" I will break this down for you.
I broke down and tried wow a couple of years ago right after BC came out. I played for about 9 months between 3 different servers. Here is a breakdown of the people I met (I understand this does not represent the entire community)
1. The twelve year old that spams you for gold and once you tell them where to go they call you a fag.
2,. The group leader that after running a low level run, kicks the entire group and keep everything for them selves.....
3. Those wonderful people who likes to hang and spam duel request to you when they are 10-15 lvls above you...
4. And yes, I saved the best for last. Those elietist DBs who just had to know what color underwear I was wearing before they would talk to me.
I laugh when i see "People hate Wow because it is popular". I think the real reason people hate Wow is the majority of the players...
The basic game is so easy that it makes poor players good and average players excell. Any new game that comes along that threatens to raise the IQ level a bit, the Wow fans go to battlestations...
I am a casual player, but most people lately have translated "casual" into "crutch". Oh, I have a life, I'm gimped....no fair etc ad nauseum....
If your time is so limited, I recommend television. You can even put a keyboard in your lap and pretend you are controlling the action. It seems that is what most wow players want. "OHHH, I logged in this week so I got an epie item.."
I don't want second job from a game, however, I do want a bit of a challenge. A mental gym so to speak.
Oh well, I probably just wasted my time. The new generation just wants instant gratification. They will probaby get PO'd when they find out that they start as a Sith and don't have a Glowbat......
What? Wows graphics is not that similar to Warhammers style.
The glossy and colorful world of Wow have very little in common with the pale and corrupted old world in warhammer. I been playing Warhammer FRPG since the late 80s, I know that world well. Don't compare it to the world we seen in WAR, GWs world is so much darker and corrupted than anything Mythic even dream about.
Wow did use some inspirations from there but it mixed it up with Mange (at least the elves), LOTR, Forgotten realms and a lot of other fantasy worlds. I would say Larry Elmore have inspired Blizz a lot more than all Warhammer artists put together.
I agree with OP anyways, TOR will not be a new Wow. Blizzard and Bioware have walked a different path since the release of Diablo and Baldurs gate. Their games have similarities but still differs a lot.
That's a big problem with WoW, I agree. If you incentivize being a jerk, then more people will be jerks.
There was an awesome column on the ToR website about how a healthy community doesn't just magically happen, but it is something the game has to foster and encourage. They really seem to understand that the game mechanics that encourage people to be helpful and nice are important. Compare this to the WoW Devs and there's a big difference; their attitude is more of "jerks happen, and it isn't our fault." That article was certainly one of the most encouraging things I read about the game, to be honest.
Here's the link: http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001
i'm just sick of everyone saying everything copies from WoW. most all mo's are based on a few things..
quests that involve killing multiple mobs
quest givers that have an icon over thier heads
a hotbar at the bottom the screen for your skills
a crafting system
a minimap
various classes that you can choose to play as
at least 2 different factions fighting eachother
a virtual world that you run around in
soo many people seem to think for some reason that all these things WoW did first.... It's just the noob mentality to mmos to say that every mmo copies from one specific game. WoW wasn not the first game to do these things and i guess i am just sick and tired of everyone calling something a "WoW clone" just because it has the basic MMO mechanics and gameplay.
I’m going to try and be as Objective as I can here, but still point out why I think this game will fail. What SW TOR probably is, I say probably because we cant know for sure at this point. But everything we have seen and heard so far points to this.
It’s a Theme-park type of game
It has quests to go kill and collect things, they are all voiced
It has your typical type of hotbar abilities. You click them they activate and start a timer.
It has a minimap
The focus off the game play is on the ground of the planets, different zones that you go to as you progress to the game
It has a slot machine item distribution system. They have said they are not going to change mush in how item are given out from now existing games, like for example WoW. This means it’s also a mouse wheel game, you run and run and run to get better gear that drops randomly
You will level up your character. It has levels like most other games in the genre.
Now my question is doesn’t this sound like a lot of other games we have already played??? Its like watching some bad rerun of another daily soap on television.
A. you know that someone is going to cheat on somebody
B. you know that you will have family drama
C. you know that someone will die, but not be dead and come back to life
And yada yada yada all the rest that you would expect of a daytime soap opera on television …
This might work for TV but sadly for Bioware it doesn’t work in Computer games. Just cause you strap a new skin on it and have another Intellectual Property to base you game on. IT wont work unless you do something different. Recent big budget MMO releases that have failed have proven this. WoW is the best at what it dose good right now. It changed a lot of things when it came out. It felt like a totally different game then the others I was used to playing. Coming from games like Doac, UO and linage2, you really felt that WoW was different. And not like they changed a few basic mechanics and thru on another skin. NO the Innovated the genre allot. Thousands of Quests that by the standard back then where totally mind blowing. 8 totally uniqe classes from the start. In many older games you had start with 4 classes that became 6 classes that by the time you hit endgame where 8 classes. Most of their abilities where basically the same and I can list a hundred other things, like the Instanced dungeons, fun loot dropping a lot more then in previous games. A basic but easy to get into crafting system etc
Many of you on these Boards work hard to say that World of Warcraft didn’t invent anything new, But I say they made the old play so differently that the experience felt totally different.
That Is what new developers need to do or its going to be FAIL after FAIL after FAIL, because people wont flock to a game they have already played for 6 years just because you got a new skin, different lore and some voiced over quests IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN
WoW is srsbzns and waz 1st MMO evar.
MMO's are going to have similar game aspects and the fact that Bioware is bringing over inginuity from the SRPG genre should be enough to tell people that this game is going to be a farther step in the world of MMO's than WoW was from EQ. One of the GOOD things about this being Biowares first MMO is that even though they know whats been done, they have less restrictions as to what can be done on the game and they are showing that they can change the game and not be limited by restrictions of previous developers.
Heh, this'll be a fun argument.
Ok, let me shake things up from the illusion that lots of people only want new refreshing stuff and don't want the same things: 90% of romantic comedies are so standard that you can predict how they will go. The same applies to action movies, most of them follow the same format and don't even talk about deep, innovative story and plot in most of them. Shows as CSI, Idols/American Idol, Survivor, etc etc are shows that have run for 10 years and more and still hordes of people watch them.
About games: when you know the gameplay mechanics of one shooter, you are good to go for as good as 90% of them. How much has the RTS genre evolved after Command & Conquer, look at how SC2 will be in gameplay mechanics and compare that with 10 years ago.
We might praise games like a Heavy Rain, a Red Dead Redemption or Uncharted series, but the truth is that far moregames that are being released are like a Call of Duty, a Modern Warfare, a SC2, with the same gameplay mechanics that we've seen for 10 years and more in the FPS, RTS and the other genres, very few games with real innovation. And still large masses of people buy those ones (MW2 comes to mind) often in preference of really innovative games.
Conclusion:
There might be some people who crave innovation and new things, also in MMO games. But there's also large groups of people who like the familiar, also when it comes to MMO games. History has shown in a lot of aspects that the majority of people are hesitant, sometimes even fearful, for the unknown, for too large changes, too much innovation. They crave the familiar in larger doses than new things or innovations. People are first and foremost creatures of habit, nourishing the familiar, (the majority of) MMO gamers aren't any different.
Do I think that SW ToR will be a huge success? Hard to tell for now.
But whether it succeeds or fails (ie being not enormously successful), it won't be for the amount of innovation or familiarity it offers, but more so because of how polished SW ToR and how entertaining SW ToR will be and how much content it will have to offer.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bioware has stated multiple times that the important quest chains will be running through your story and will be several hours long playable story arcs, how is that not different from random quests that have nothing important to do with your toons personal story which are randomly spread across the world?
Are you against hotbar abilities in general? Whats the story there?
Not just slot machine distribution. They have stated many times ie: If there is no smuggler in the group there won't be smuggler gear that drops, it doesn't make any sense. The only time this will happen is if the NPC is holding a lightsaber and it dies, it will drop a lightsaber, or if it is holding a blaster it will drop a blaster, along with other gear that coincides with the group make up. This in itself is revolutionary to WoW's TOTALLY random loot drops.
I just dont understand what you are looking for in a game if you listed the basics to MMO's in your post. Apparently you don't want the following...
Land Mass
Quests
Abilities
Minimaps
Once again Land Mass
Loot
Levels
At this point it looks like you should just play Counter Strike : Source surf maps and turn off the minimap...
It really will be lots of fun to quote you once this game releases.
I guess it's as the saying goes, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Im going to show you something now that you might not have picked up on. What do Call of Duty, Modern warfare, SC2 and lets say NHL 2010 all have in common??
Player vs Player intercation. Those games are build around competion betwen Human players. Chess, Poker and other board games have also been around for hundreads of years and people still play them right? WHy? because you are going up against other humans. And somehow dont ask me why playing against other living people never gets boring. The human mind is a strange thing hehe....
BUT if people are made to run in a Mouse Wheel to get gear, and fight against the AI they soon get tired and bored... Now SW Tor will not have any harsh death penelties or space that you can counqure and hold for your Guild etc. All it has shown us is another RUN WHEEL that we are suposed to climb onto. AND IM TELLING YOU PEOPLE ARE BORED TO DEATH DOING THIS http://schoolnew.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/mousewheel.gif
i have found without any real trouble, many actual hands on reviews of ToR written by professional critics, and just plain fans of games. i dont have any special internet searching abilities, just standard old internet expolorer.
http://www.tor-aid.com/20100620235/SWTOR-In-Game/e3-round-up-of-swtor.html
this is one link that i found that is a good summary of the actual facts about the game based on poeple who actually played the game, and direct knowledge from people who are creating the game. these are not opinions, they are hard proven facts.
as far as reviews go, even critics who are famous for being "the hard to please critic" or " the nitpicking " critic, have nothing but positive things to say about the game. the comon theme between them is how "un wow like" this game is, other then being a mmo style online game.
i agree we can all discuss our opinions about what we personally prefer or dislike about any game we play, but even an idiot knows that if u dont base ur opinion on facts,then that opinion is worth shit.. all i'm saying is finding out what the game will actually be isnt that hard to do for any one who has enough computer savy to find this site, start an account, and make a post. dont be lazy, do a little work so we all can have an intelligent conversation about the pros and cons of the game we are all anticipating in one way or another
The WoW clone statement people make is getting kind of old... I think it is just used now to get a rise out of people and to troll them.
Everything in the MMORPG genre is going to have some similarity to the next game... that is why it's a genre...
I'm not into star wars but I don't have time (or the care) to go around trolling it. :P