Regarding TOR integrating the ideas in GW2, I'm sorry to say that this seems almost certainly impossible to me. Surely such mechanics would have to be in mind from the very start of building the game? I'll absolutely agree that the GW2 mechanic is amazing, to the extent that I actually fret about not being able to stop playing because I'll want to throw myself into the dynamic action and follow what happens!
I think public quests wouldn't be too hard (same with public events). The "come across a village under attack" bit would be more difficult to add at this stage, I freely admit. Hopefully they will borrow the idea that if someone helps you kill a monster and you aren't grouped, then you both share the experience like GW2 does. Anyhow, some of the stuff is doable and might even be getting done.
I'm not saying I expect them to add it. I was just trying to indicate ToR isn't perfection to me and I do realize ways it could be better.
You know, for a community that rages for innovation and immersion, we sure do bite the hand that feeds us. ToR is not going to re-write the book on MMOs. It's taking some things that are proven to work, and using them, and TRYING SOME THINGS THAT ARE NEW. This whole dialogue thing, it's a step in the right direction. It'll be an interaction besides "kill X" ,"click on Y", and "loot and/or use Z". This will foster more roleplay, as well. No, ToR isn't going to change the world. But I think it will be a step in the right direction. Let's not go berserk here.
WoW didn't change the MMO landscape single-handedly. It built on elements of EQ, UO, and others. Which, in turn, built on elements from past games. No single game has ever changed the industry to that extent. ToR won't. But it still may be a good game. Let's wait until we actually play it before we condemn it.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
The only thing original about WoW is the Fisher-Price stylized graphics of what they took from Warhammer.
Will people stop comparing certain aspects of other games to WoW when WoW was not the original?
Catering the casual player was not new either.
Being a game lobby was not new either.
Etc, etc, etc.
Did I mention...etc?
WoW is an EQ clone? Based on the fact that they are both MMOs? There is very little alike between the two.
EQ had like 10 quests in the game when it came out. There wasnt even a quest log. Heck it didnt even have a map.
Quest logs and more quests were added in as the game went. Doing quests wasn't the primary way to level up, thats about the only difference there. And quests were more involved and unique in EverQuest.
WoW has battlegrounds and arenas.
EverQuest had an arena.
WoWs dungeons were actually instances. In EQ everyone shared the same dungeons.
EverQuest had instances long before WoW came out. Not something anyone was happy about, but the poor game design in both Wow and EQ made instances necessary
WoW has actual abilties to use. If your a warrior in EQ you have kick and uh taunt. Thats about it.
Abilities were gained as you level up, just like WoW.
WoW had talent trees. Actual character customization.
So did EverQuest, and Dark Age of Camelot
etc.
Ya they are so much alike...
They are extremely alike in game design philosophy.
The point of both WoW and EQ is to level up, and get loot. You grind dungeons to get the best loot, that unlock higher tier dungeons. You do this until the devs raise the level cap and add new dungeons.
The WoW designers were all former EQ raid leaders, and it shows.
WoW's gameplay mechanics were stale and boring the day they came out for anyone who was a veteran of the industry.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I played WoW, and I loved it for a very long time. In all seriousness I would play it again. But, I played EQ, DAoC, SWG,UO, and WoW pulls from all of these games. Blizzard is a great company and one of the smartest but they didn't do anything but put the puzzle together. And they made a great game out of it, I'll admit.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
The only thing original about WoW is the Fisher-Price stylized graphics of what they took from Warhammer.
Will people stop comparing certain aspects of other games to WoW when WoW was not the original?
Catering the casual player was not new either.
Being a game lobby was not new either.
Etc, etc, etc.
Did I mention...etc?
WoW is an EQ clone? Based on the fact that they are both MMOs? There is very little alike between the two.
EQ had like 10 quests in the game when it came out. There wasnt even a quest log. Heck it didnt even have a map.
Quest logs and more quests were added in as the game went. Doing quests wasn't the primary way to level up, thats about the only difference there. And quests were more involved and unique in EverQuest.
More involved? The only quests that were involved came around at max level. The quests up until then that I remember involved bringing skeleton bone stacks to some dwarf or delivering messages between towns etc. Not only that the only way to find anything about them was going through conversations finding keywords to say to them to get them to reveal the quest. WoW set the standard for quests in MMOs. If your gonna say they copied that from EQ your crazy. Quests = RPGs.
WoW has battlegrounds and arenas.
EverQuest had an arena.
LOL. Really? That arena was just a circle structure where you could get attacked when you went inside. No one was EVER inside. Not only that you could run out before you died. Not to mention you got nothing for it and it was pointless.
WoWs dungeons were actually instances. In EQ everyone shared the same dungeons.
EverQuest had instances long before WoW came out. Not something anyone was happy about, but the poor game design in both Wow and EQ made instances necessary
Last time I played it everyone shared the instances and you all had to fight over the same raid bosses. If you mean that stupid dungeon randomizer thing they came out with then thats not the same thing.
WoW has actual abilties to use. If your a warrior in EQ you have kick and uh taunt. Thats about it.
Abilities were gained as you level up, just like WoW.
What? Seriously warriors had kick and taunt. Thats basically it.
WoW had talent trees. Actual character customization.
So did EverQuest, and Dark Age of Camelot
Everquest did not have talent trees. Not before WoW came out. They eventually added in those alternate advance points or whatever. That is not a skill tree. You could eventually max out every point. Same goes for DAoC.
etc.
Ya they are so much alike...
They are extremely alike in game design philosophy.
The point of both WoW and EQ is to level up, and get loot. You grind dungeons to get the best loot, that unlock higher tier dungeons. You do this until the devs raise the level cap and add new dungeons.
The WoW designers were all former EQ raid leaders, and it shows.
WoW's gameplay mechanics were stale and boring the day they came out for anyone who was a veteran of the industry.
Yes WoW is an rpg. RPGs = "level up, and get loot". That is not qualify it being called an "EQ clone". In that case Old Republic is an EQ clone. Along with 90% of all MMOs. All you have basically told me is that EverQuest and WoW are indeed both MMORPGs.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
This is proof that WoW fanboi can be funny. If it wasn't for WoW the MMO industry would be BETTER OFF THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW!!! Because you wouldn't have companies making epic FAILURES trying to be the next WoW and YES Bioware already made it clear they want to take WoW's crown.
Incoming WoW clone attempt #56. Chance of success = 3.74%
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
You were talking about investor's. SOny is one of the largest electronic's companys ever. They never lost a cent on their games because they were all low budget. A few like Planetside died, but EQ,and 2, SWG made it out just fine. Bringing money in. The Matrix failed after a good run. BUt honestly it was a terrible idea to launch that game anyways.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
You were talking about investor's. SOny is one of the largest electronic's companys ever. They never lost a cent on their games because they were all low budget. A few like Planetside died, but EQ,and 2, SWG made it out just fine. Bringing money in. The Matrix failed after a good run. BUt honestly it was a terrible idea to launch that game anyways.
Low budget? I believe Vanguard was the most expensive MMO ever made before Old Republic. Heck WoW was made for only 3 million. Sony is the worst MMO company and everyone knows it. They are universally hated.
Trust me if WoW wasn't around they probably would have given up on a North American MMO a long time ago. It went from 500,000 being the most you could get to 11 million. Quite the jump. Again, I'm only giving credit wheres it due.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
Just so you know before WoW came along 200k subscribers was considered a pretty big success for an MMO. So no Sony didn't lose money on most of their MMOs.
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
This is proof that WoW fanboi can be funny. If it wasn't for WoW the MMO industry would be BETTER OFF THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW!!! Because you wouldn't have companies making epic FAILURES trying to be the next WoW and YES Bioware already made it clear they want to take WoW's crown.
Incoming WoW clone attempt #56. Chance of success = 3.74%
And your a typical "LoLz WoW FaNbOi!!@#!@" poster. Look, you have no idea if Bioware would even risk making an MMO if WoW hadn't come out. How many people knew what an MMO was before WoW? Not many. There will be people trying to make games like WoW but they are going to keep trying until they learn.
Bioware said the exact opposite I believe. They don't expect to beat WoW. They expect around 2 million.
The question is ... what is the history of the 2 companies behind the 2 products.
Here lies the difference I think between the 2 final games.
Blizzard makes competitive and co-op modes in all their games (be that SC1, WC3, D2, WOW).
This was stated clearly by Rob Pardo recently: they always want to have a player interaction in their games and so they had ample experience in this field when launching WOW
According to Pardo it makes for very long life cycles, because they always have that multiplayer aspect which keeps it fresh and replayable.
Bioware is THE creator of predefined RPG games with a focus on story telling and always have fallen back to some excellent Ad&D designs (or variants of it).
So I think Blizzard is the pure game designer with manual gameplay first (eye hand coordination), while Bioware is the adventure designer with story telling first.
---
What Blizzard DID do as the first MMo designer EVER (and the other old MMo's not) was the added gameplay value through good controls of your avatars. After WOW hit the market, MMo's would NO longer be the stiff animated unresponsive mess they were as video games.
Going back to both companies: look at 2 of their most known products: Diablo (Blizzard) and Baldur's Gate (Bioware). The first concentrated on "video gameplay action - hack/slash", the latter concentrated on trying to introduce Ad&D mechanics with a high story RPG mechanism behind it.
The first was clearly mulitplayer, the latter solo experience with a party.
---
Blizzard (with its former expertise of RTS and hack and slash) had the ideal tools to create the first MMo that was based on video gameplay first (read extreme responsive controls) and NOT in the old way we played RPG games (namely with stiff animated avatars based on our old pen and paper mechanics).
The things I have already seen through the videos in SW and the statements of Bioware is little more than what I thought would come out of Bioware.
Everything is IN it as a typical Bioware game: the cinematics story telling, the voice overs, the NPC party, the backdrops and window dressing. I already saw the 2D mountains in the distances that are there as 2D/3D borders, I saw the NPC statements, the limited PvP mechanics (even with NPC's for each players) etc...
---
Bioware is on its way to create the first solo adventure experience on line with a focus on individual story telling. Therefore it is certainly not "WOW", but I also think it will miss its target as being a fully fledged MMo by lack of that typical on line video gameplay value: replayablitiy in a multplayer setting.
SW will be the first single story telling adventure "on line". We will see if such a game has a longer life than the typical life cycle of solo adventure games.
The hunger of players can never be satisfied with always "newer" stories to produce in a world (mmo) that really has to be rather static and consistent to be played with a massive number of players from day 1 to day 1000.
Also MMo's should not have NPC companions either. MMo adventures are played by players, not NPC parties.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Yes WoW is an rpg. RPGs = "level up, and get loot". That is not qualify it being called an "EQ clone". In that case Old Republic is an EQ clone. Along with 90% of all MMOs. All you have basically told me is that EverQuest and WoW are indeed both MMORPGs.
I may be wrong here, but isn't that the whole point of this thread?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
You were talking about investor's. SOny is one of the largest electronic's companys ever. They never lost a cent on their games because they were all low budget. A few like Planetside died, but EQ,and 2, SWG made it out just fine. Bringing money in. The Matrix failed after a good run. BUt honestly it was a terrible idea to launch that game anyways.
Low budget? I believe Vanguard was the most expensive MMO ever made before Old Republic. Heck WoW was made for only 3 million. Sony is the worst MMO company and everyone knows it. They are universally hated.
Trust me if WoW wasn't around they probably would have given up on a North American MMO a long time ago. It went from 500,000 being the most you could get to 11 million. Quite the jump. Again, I'm only giving credit wheres it due.
HAHA!!! Before WoW SWG, EQ were the best it got. And before CU destroyed SWG the two game were the best MMO's to date, and WoW was out at that time... If it wasn't for CU SWG would still be a top player. Yes SOny messed up with that. But SWG is still putting out addon's and still making enough money for SOE to market it out with books, comics, car games. Oh yeah WoW picked that up from them too. LOLOL. Man if CU never happened the arugement would be "SWG vs SWTOR". None of this WoW junk. I gave WoW it's credit. But Blizzard is far from original with anything they have ever done. Starcraft for example was a failed Game-Workshop addon to their tabbletop of Warhammer 40k. Of course it wasn't called StarCraft, thats Blizzard's work.
The question is ... what is the history of the 2 companies behind the 2 products.
Here lies the difference I think between the 2 final games.
Blizzard makes competitive and co-op modes in all their games (be that SC1, WC3, D2, WOW).
This was stated clearly by Rob Pardo recently: they always want to have a player interaction in their games and so they had ample experience in this field when launching WOW
According to Pardo it makes for very long life cycles, because they always have that multiplayer aspect which keeps it fresh and replayable.
Bioware is THE creator of predefined RPG games with a focus on story telling and always have fallen back to some excellent Ad&D designs (or variants of it).
So I think Blizzard is the pure game designer with manual gameplay first (eye hand coordination), while Bioware is the adventure designer with story telling first.
---
What Blizzard DID do as the first MMo designer EVER (and the other old MMo's not) was the added gameplay value through good controls of your avatars. After WOW hit the market, MMo's would NO longer be the stiiff animated unresponsive mess they were as video games.
Going back to both companies: look to 2 of their most known products: Diablo (Blizzard) and Baldur's Gate (Bioware). The first concentrated on "video gameplay action - hack/slash", the latter concentrated on trying to introduce Ad&D mechanics with a high story RPG mechanism behind it.
The first was clearly mulitplayer, the latter solo experience with a party.
---
Blizzard (with its former expertise of RTS and hack and slash) had the ideal tools to create the first MMo that was based on video gameplay first (read extreme responsive controls) and NOT in the old way we played RPG games (namely with stiff animated avatars based on our old pen and paper mechanics).
The things I have already seen through the videos in SW and the statements of Bioware is little more than what I thought would come out of Bioware.
Everything is IN it as a typical Bioware game: the cinematics story telling, the voice overs, the NPC party, the backdrops and window dressing. I already saw the 2D mountains in the distances that are there as 2D/3D borders, I saw the NPC statements, the limited PvP mechanics (even with NPC's for each players) etc...
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Bioware is on its way to create the first solo adventure experience on line with a focus on individual story telling. Therefore it is certainly not "WOW", but I also think it will miss its target as being a fully fledged MMo by lack of that typical on line video gameplay value: replayablitiy in a multplayer setting.
SW will be the first single story telling adventure "on line". We will see if such a game has a longer life than the typical life cycle of solo adventure games.
The hunger of players can never be satisfied with always "newer" stories to produce in a world (mmo) that really has to be rather static and consistent to be played with a massive number of players from day 1 to day 1000.
Also MMo's should not have NPC companions either. MMo adventures are played by players, not NPC parties.
I love the dialogue that im seeing from the Old Republic. Something I hope we start seeing in all MMOs from not on. I am not sure about companions. I dont really like the idea. Seems like just another reason to solo my way through the game. I also dont like the graphics at all. Not that they are really terrible but it just doesn't feel right. I think it will be good though. Have to wait and see.
<huge snip> Starcraft for example was a failed Game-Workshop addon to their tabbletop of Warhammer 40k. Of course it wasn't called StarCraft, thats Blizzard's work.
Umm what? Addon to 40K? Not sure where you are getting that. Yes the whole Marines vs Tau vs Tyranids thing is similar to SC, but then again heavily armored marines and space bugs are hardly the invention of 40K. And alien Space Communists isn't exactly what I would call original either....
Yes WoW is an rpg. RPGs = "level up, and get loot". That is not qualify it being called an "EQ clone". In that case Old Republic is an EQ clone. Along with 90% of all MMOs. All you have basically told me is that EverQuest and WoW are indeed both MMORPGs.
I may be wrong here, but isn't that the whole point of this thread?
Well the point of the thread is that the poster said SW TOR isn't like WoW. Someone responded saying WoW is EQ Clone. I responded saying no they are just both MMORPGs.
Xbox and Playstation may both be game consoles but they arent the same. Just as WoW and EQ are both MMORPGs but not the same.
Low budget? I believe Vanguard was the most expensive MMO ever made before Old Republic. Heck WoW was made for only 3 million. Sony is the worst MMO company and everyone knows it. They are universally hated.
3 million? I heard and read a higher figure for the development cost, so link please else it's not believable.
Trust me if WoW wasn't around they probably would have given up on a North American MMO a long time ago.
Don't think so, dude. WoW helped popularize the MMO into the mainstream medium it is today, but from 2000-2005 there were enough MMO's being launched, and there were no signs at all that was in a decline back then, even more, the MMO market was blossoming up in that pioneering phase.
It went from 500,000 being the most you could get to 11 million. Quite the jump. Again, I'm only giving credit wheres it due.
And nothing wrong with that, I like balanced viewpoints too, I frankly grow tired of posts and people who are only capable of seeing and admitting one side, either good or bad of a game/company/etc. I often suspect that kind of people of having a brain dysfunction or low emotional intelligence.
You might help your statements though by sticking to straight facts. Denying that WoW hasn't looked at other MMO's around and copied gameplay mechanics is not very believable, WoW will still be great without having to resort to adulation or such weak arguments.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
I think public quests wouldn't be too hard (same with public events). The "come across a village under attack" bit would be more difficult to add at this stage, I freely admit. Hopefully they will borrow the idea that if someone helps you kill a monster and you aren't grouped, then you both share the experience like GW2 does. Anyhow, some of the stuff is doable and might even be getting done.
I'm not saying I expect them to add it. I was just trying to indicate ToR isn't perfection to me and I do realize ways it could be better.
You know, for a community that rages for innovation and immersion, we sure do bite the hand that feeds us. ToR is not going to re-write the book on MMOs. It's taking some things that are proven to work, and using them, and TRYING SOME THINGS THAT ARE NEW. This whole dialogue thing, it's a step in the right direction. It'll be an interaction besides "kill X" ,"click on Y", and "loot and/or use Z". This will foster more roleplay, as well. No, ToR isn't going to change the world. But I think it will be a step in the right direction. Let's not go berserk here.
WoW didn't change the MMO landscape single-handedly. It built on elements of EQ, UO, and others. Which, in turn, built on elements from past games. No single game has ever changed the industry to that extent. ToR won't. But it still may be a good game. Let's wait until we actually play it before we condemn it.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
WoW is an EQ clone? Based on the fact that they are both MMOs? There is very little alike between the two.
EQ had like 10 quests in the game when it came out. There wasnt even a quest log. Heck it didnt even have a map.
WoW has battlegrounds and arenas.
WoWs dungeons were actually instances. In EQ everyone shared the same dungeons.
WoW has actual abilties to use. If your a warrior in EQ you have kick and uh taunt. Thats about it.
WoW had talent trees. Actual character customization.
etc.
Ya they are so much alike...
I love when people say WoW clone, or " it's gonna be just like WoW".
Because WoW is far from original
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They are extremely alike in game design philosophy.
The point of both WoW and EQ is to level up, and get loot. You grind dungeons to get the best loot, that unlock higher tier dungeons. You do this until the devs raise the level cap and add new dungeons.
The WoW designers were all former EQ raid leaders, and it shows.
WoW's gameplay mechanics were stale and boring the day they came out for anyone who was a veteran of the industry.
People like to hate WoW because its been on top for so long and its really the only MMO good enough to play.
Its much more original than you think.
Have you even looked further then playing World of Gearcraft?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I played WoW, and I loved it for a very long time. In all seriousness I would play it again. But, I played EQ, DAoC, SWG,UO, and WoW pulls from all of these games. Blizzard is a great company and one of the smartest but they didn't do anything but put the puzzle together. And they made a great game out of it, I'll admit.
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I beg to differ. The majority of features in WoW have all been seen in other MMO's before WoW. "the only MMO good enough to play"? that's just sad if you seriously think that. I've played tons of MMO's other than WoW that are just as good if not better than WoW. With that said, there are also tons of MMO's that are far more original than WoW. fanboy much?
yes I know I kind of ranted...but seriously, that's just poor logic to say that it's the only MMO good enough to play when there are tons of MMO's that are doing quite well.
Im no fanboy of WoW. It irritates me to see people hate it just because its on top. People like to hate the guys on top. IMO MMOs would be dead by now if it wasn't for WoW. People were going to stop investing in MMOs because the biggest MMO under WoW was Everquest which was at like 500,000 in North America. It brought much needed attention and investors. People will keep trying to be the "next WoW" and thus we get more MMOs. I give credit where its due. I don't even play WoW anymore.
Whoa guy.. Sony created some of the biggest MMO titles. And it's safe to say Sony has more money to throw around than Blizzard has or will ever have.
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What? Sony lost money on most of their MMOs. Most of them never got over 500,000 players. They didnt even make Everquest and that was their best MMO. Sony MMOs are basically dead. They have money because they arent just a game company. Why am I even responding to this I didnt mention anything about Sony in the first place, nor did I mention anything about how much money either Sony or Blizzard has.
This is proof that WoW fanboi can be funny. If it wasn't for WoW the MMO industry would be BETTER OFF THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW!!! Because you wouldn't have companies making epic FAILURES trying to be the next WoW and YES Bioware already made it clear they want to take WoW's crown.
Incoming WoW clone attempt #56. Chance of success = 3.74%
You were talking about investor's. SOny is one of the largest electronic's companys ever. They never lost a cent on their games because they were all low budget. A few like Planetside died, but EQ,and 2, SWG made it out just fine. Bringing money in. The Matrix failed after a good run. BUt honestly it was a terrible idea to launch that game anyways.
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Low budget? I believe Vanguard was the most expensive MMO ever made before Old Republic. Heck WoW was made for only 3 million. Sony is the worst MMO company and everyone knows it. They are universally hated.
Trust me if WoW wasn't around they probably would have given up on a North American MMO a long time ago. It went from 500,000 being the most you could get to 11 million. Quite the jump. Again, I'm only giving credit wheres it due.
Just so you know before WoW came along 200k subscribers was considered a pretty big success for an MMO. So no Sony didn't lose money on most of their MMOs.
And your a typical "LoLz WoW FaNbOi!!@#!@" poster. Look, you have no idea if Bioware would even risk making an MMO if WoW hadn't come out. How many people knew what an MMO was before WoW? Not many. There will be people trying to make games like WoW but they are going to keep trying until they learn.
Bioware said the exact opposite I believe. They don't expect to beat WoW. They expect around 2 million.
The question is ... what is the history of the 2 companies behind the 2 products.
Here lies the difference I think between the 2 final games.
Blizzard makes competitive and co-op modes in all their games (be that SC1, WC3, D2, WOW).
This was stated clearly by Rob Pardo recently: they always want to have a player interaction in their games and so they had ample experience in this field when launching WOW
According to Pardo it makes for very long life cycles, because they always have that multiplayer aspect which keeps it fresh and replayable.
Bioware is THE creator of predefined RPG games with a focus on story telling and always have fallen back to some excellent Ad&D designs (or variants of it).
So I think Blizzard is the pure game designer with manual gameplay first (eye hand coordination), while Bioware is the adventure designer with story telling first.
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What Blizzard DID do as the first MMo designer EVER (and the other old MMo's not) was the added gameplay value through good controls of your avatars. After WOW hit the market, MMo's would NO longer be the stiff animated unresponsive mess they were as video games.
Going back to both companies: look at 2 of their most known products: Diablo (Blizzard) and Baldur's Gate (Bioware). The first concentrated on "video gameplay action - hack/slash", the latter concentrated on trying to introduce Ad&D mechanics with a high story RPG mechanism behind it.
The first was clearly mulitplayer, the latter solo experience with a party.
---
Blizzard (with its former expertise of RTS and hack and slash) had the ideal tools to create the first MMo that was based on video gameplay first (read extreme responsive controls) and NOT in the old way we played RPG games (namely with stiff animated avatars based on our old pen and paper mechanics).
The things I have already seen through the videos in SW and the statements of Bioware is little more than what I thought would come out of Bioware.
Everything is IN it as a typical Bioware game: the cinematics story telling, the voice overs, the NPC party, the backdrops and window dressing. I already saw the 2D mountains in the distances that are there as 2D/3D borders, I saw the NPC statements, the limited PvP mechanics (even with NPC's for each players) etc...
---
Bioware is on its way to create the first solo adventure experience on line with a focus on individual story telling. Therefore it is certainly not "WOW", but I also think it will miss its target as being a fully fledged MMo by lack of that typical on line video gameplay value: replayablitiy in a multplayer setting.
SW will be the first single story telling adventure "on line". We will see if such a game has a longer life than the typical life cycle of solo adventure games.
The hunger of players can never be satisfied with always "newer" stories to produce in a world (mmo) that really has to be rather static and consistent to be played with a massive number of players from day 1 to day 1000.
Also MMo's should not have NPC companions either. MMo adventures are played by players, not NPC parties.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I may be wrong here, but isn't that the whole point of this thread?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
HAHA!!! Before WoW SWG, EQ were the best it got. And before CU destroyed SWG the two game were the best MMO's to date, and WoW was out at that time... If it wasn't for CU SWG would still be a top player. Yes SOny messed up with that. But SWG is still putting out addon's and still making enough money for SOE to market it out with books, comics, car games. Oh yeah WoW picked that up from them too. LOLOL. Man if CU never happened the arugement would be "SWG vs SWTOR". None of this WoW junk. I gave WoW it's credit. But Blizzard is far from original with anything they have ever done. Starcraft for example was a failed Game-Workshop addon to their tabbletop of Warhammer 40k. Of course it wasn't called StarCraft, thats Blizzard's work.
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I love the dialogue that im seeing from the Old Republic. Something I hope we start seeing in all MMOs from not on. I am not sure about companions. I dont really like the idea. Seems like just another reason to solo my way through the game. I also dont like the graphics at all. Not that they are really terrible but it just doesn't feel right. I think it will be good though. Have to wait and see.
Umm what? Addon to 40K? Not sure where you are getting that. Yes the whole Marines vs Tau vs Tyranids thing is similar to SC, but then again heavily armored marines and space bugs are hardly the invention of 40K. And alien Space Communists isn't exactly what I would call original either....
Well the point of the thread is that the poster said SW TOR isn't like WoW. Someone responded saying WoW is EQ Clone. I responded saying no they are just both MMORPGs.
Xbox and Playstation may both be game consoles but they arent the same. Just as WoW and EQ are both MMORPGs but not the same.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."